Not only that, but the return is let's say 3.5"x30" and what appears to be 28ga? Even 26ga itll be noisy and duct popping will probably happen, regardless of the cross breaks.....I do hvac and I feel bad seeing things like this, gives us a bad name. But that's the least of his worries here it would seem.
It would only be acceptable if this is house is getting the majority of it's insulation as continuous insulation outside of the stud cavity, otherwise yeah this is going to be noisy and likely have a lot of condensation inside the duct, and potentially on the outer surface of the wall here.
I wouldn’t want it even then. Beyond insulation, the chance that the exterior isn’t perfectly air sealed, and that duct sweats in summer…
OP, please stand up and have this 100% rectified. An ounce of prevention…
There is no way I’d want that HVAC person/company back on site. If they do this to structural members, I’d have zero confidence in the HVAC install even getting close to following mfg specs/industry best practices.
This looks worse than the butchering my century home endured from renovations in the 40’s. I do HVAC, and that single duct run communicates many things - all bad. A litmus test that they completely failed.
Frankly I’d much, much rather have a chase on the interior for the duct to run in. It would likely even make the job faster doing it that way.
These guys are knuckleheads. Need to hide their chainsaws. I used to work for a builder. 3000 ft² house. The center 2x6 walls were for all the mechanicals. They came in and cut the outside walls clean through in about 10 different areas. I thought my head was going to explode. Lost my shit
1950 flashback again. Why aren't they using 2" X 6" framing on exterior walls for the added work & insulation? Now it's more expensive foam for energy regulations & no space for ducks. I'd have solid lumber on the band/perimeter framing also. Not that'd solve the butcher job going on there. Cut the steel stub on the, I beam,! Fire the HVAC guy.
I only build internal projects, but I went back to 2x4 exterior framing on my last project because I went completely exterior with insulation. 6" of Ridgid in 2" sheets . 2x4 16 oc gave me more anchor points for strapping than 2x6 24 oc.
I don't know where you're located but in NY state, USA federal regulation/state minimum for energy conservation is 2" X 6" stud with R-19 batt. insulation, or 2" X 4" stud with R-11 insulation + 2" rigid board insulation. the poly isocyanate with reflective coating, (black or silver) is so much $ it's cheaper to go 2" X 6" with no broad insulation unless you're rich. You have the room to drill for wiring & pipes without turning a 2x4 into furring strips with no strength. Both 16" O. C. framing. Only roof system trusses on 24" O. C. for lower tier upstate. Further south roof regulations get tougher, so probably 16" O. C. for roof system. The affordable foam board, (forgot the chemical composition), shrinks so much dimensionally off gasing over time it doesn't even pay to use. Studies show now. So even taping shiplap or v notched regular foam board doesn't pay because the shrinkage is so much that the tap is most likely to tear. Even if it doesn't the tape is over air. For extreme wind areas.
I see this pretty commonly, assuming this is the wall bordering the garage and house. That wall will be furred out on the garage side and spray foamed, or at least it should be
Edit had another look and this pretty clearly isnt a garage wall. Woops
Interesting. Im not familiar with that brick veneer looking finish below the wood structure so figured it was an exterior finish of some kind
In that case ya id assume (and hope) that this will be furred out and insulated down the line
I thought it was exterior, as well, for the same reason you mention. That pattern is on the other side as well.
It's hard to tell from the pic, but it looks like you could put another wall on the foundation, giving plenty of room for insulation.
Interesting question. I have same setup on my 1957 house. It was just fiberglass insulation in the cavity around the ducts. I removed all the exterior sheathing and batt insulation and filled all cavities with closed cell spray foam from the exterior, including those with ducts. Maybe they will do similar here? Frankly, I think that would be fine and would prefer a sheet metal duct encased in foam than any alternative I can think of. And the foam will make it rigid AF. Would be preferable with a 6” deep stud to get about 2” of foam between duct and sheathing. My guys actually overfilled all cavities and used giant flexible sawzall blades to trim foam flush the studs so that there would be no gap between foam face and sheathing. -NYSPE
My local code allows this. 99% of the time we’re left with no other option than that anyhow. 2” panning between the wall stack and the exterior wall itself is what is required, given the interior wall is in a conditioned space.
**UPDATE**
Just got off the phone with the MFG tech support. He said that while that job is terrible, since it is the rim joist it would be ok if they add in appropriate squash boards and recommended taking that sliver of webbing out to replace with either a full stud to rim or with a header at the top to take that stud load.
I am still going to check the rest of the joists today though. Any standard joist cut like that will be NG 100%
I had reached out to MFG yesterday, but it was eating at me too much to not post here as well.
It's still terrible work, and it still needs extra support added, so that part is valid.
Right. But the HVAC isn’t even done. Your builder isn’t going to go and fix every little thing the minute it happens. HVAC and other subs all cut things loose and knock stuff out their way all the time. Then when the subs are done the builder sends in the carpenters to button everything up before drywall.
It’s good to check everything out and make sure you’re not getting screwed or something isn’t getting missed but you’re going to drive yourself and your builder crazy lol.
>Then when the subs are done the builder sends in the carpenters to button everything up before drywall.
Or they just send the drywaller a knowing that whatever shit they slid through is unlikely to pop up before warranty runs out.
For some issues sure. Plumber has to cut through a joist for a toilet. Better header it off as soon as possible. There are obviously situations where it needs addressed immediately.
My point is that not everything requires immediate action and just about everything can be fixed, it’s just a matter of how much it will cost. Some fixes are way cheaper earlier.
>Some fixes are way cheaper earlier.
Yes, for clarity, this is what I meant. Sooner is cheaper to repair instead of buttoning it up, taking more time and cost.
Totally agree. Just didn’t want to type out an 8 page essay on every instance of repairs you may run into. Which at least for the buyer, don’t cost them any more money. Inefficiency kills the builder.
Gee, are you expecting an architect/engineer to actually do thwir job?!!!!!! Don't you realize that they don't have to. They just put that little tag on the prints " Field Verify". I'm here to say I can "Field Verify" that theae clowns are arrogant, lazy douchebags. Half rheir drawings are cut & paste from previous projects, regardless of the current project's requirements. I welcome all you FUCKING NERDS to chime in now.
You’re being downvoted but you’re right. I’ve worked residential construction for ages, it’s almost “the norm” that subs run through like a tornado; before the supervisors go back and repair/change any issues. Having to fix the spot in this pic looks annoying, but for all we know, the HVAC guy ran 100 miles of clean ducts around the rest of the house. There’s always a few fixes on the construction company, but the other 90% of the work is done; a few fixes isn’t bad. They do tend to wait on other subs to finish to minimize the amount of times “damage control” carpenters have to come back.
With that said, this is a bad example because that looks so sketchy I’d question all the work they did.
100% agree.
We're plumbers and when the homeowners are running around after hours it slows everything down.
Albeit, sometimes it can be beneficial but I see this commonly from our HVAC guys in midwest all day.
That's the only thing I would have wanted fixed right away, the pitiful little piece of webbing under the stud (and the uninsulated duct). The rim joist can be hacked up if its sitting on a wall as long as the studs are supported. Though we tend to use manufactured Rim board instead of I-joists, I've seen enough comments in here saying that I joists are fine- slightly more work for nailing the ends I guess.
Also thanks for the update and good idea on checking the other joists!
Oh i am checking **everything** dont you worry about that.
I like this sort of stuff and its adjacent enough to my work that i've had some exposure to know what is right.
When i saw a I-joist cut like that it set off alarms from seeing hundreds of posts / stories about that.
Nightmare client.
This is why I charge more if anyone mentions reddit lol. Sprinkler fitters commenting on framing convincing the owner the house is going to collapse.
" How hard do I push back that it's done correctly? "
You push back ALL the way until it is done correctly. Normally you'd make the GC/builder remove & replace the damaged work (not just patch) to get their full attention.
Sorry to say OP, but with the rim joist wrong and the HVAC this bad, you are probably in the world of canceling this GC contract. I'd get an inspector out there quick because you probably have more problems in your build.
Thanks for the confirmation!
This is my second time going against this GC for building off prints / out of spec.
Hope this HVAC is up to date on his bonded coverage. He's about to pay for some new beams.
An engineer will most likely not make them replace the cut joists. They’ll design a reinforcement solution with what is there usually. But I would definitely insist that they provide you with the stamped engineer letter/sketch and also that that have the engineer come back and say that the repair was done in conformance with that design.
And in residential, bonds are not really a thing. And the cost of this is like two or three orders of magnitude below what any contractor would go to a bond or insurance over. They’ll just do the repair and back charge the sub.
This is probably what will happen but The inspector will require it for your framing / rough inspections. I would call the county ASAP and get the to document it, so the GC doesn’t do what he thinks is right and get his engineer to stamp it.
That 90 degree "joist" is lust blocking they make you do on floors and roofs. Technically, there is nothing structurally damaged here. Is it a butcher job...100% it is
Looking at the orientation of the ply, it is indeed just blocking.
Unless that is a heated garage, I'm not sure why hvac is in the exterior wall.
Butcher away, good sirs.
Yup, if the GC wants to cut corners with cheap contractors, it is their responsibility to make sure it gets done right. This is why we have building codes, and why good subcontractors are bonded/insured. Don’t let the GC push the cost of fixing this to you.
The difference here is that the mentally disabled can’t help that they are in that situation. Who ever the clown was that performed this masterpiece, can.
I'm a diyer and this looks retarded to me at first glance. Like I can't imagine someone looked at this and thought "yeah that looks good" and not setting off multiple alarm bells.
That one two by four in the middle is being held up by a tiny bit of osb and subfloor. Clearly this person though yeah we need some support for the bottom of the stud and said "shit this 1 inch section of osb will hold it".
Just cut it the rest of the way out and put a double 2x4 in to replace the single one thats all hacked up.
That I joist aint really spanning anything. Doesnt even need to be there. Could just be studs.
Cmon guys. I know it looks stupid, but ya'll are acting like somethings gonna collapse.
Exactly! It's not spanning so it's like a small window here.
However, for the parallel joists sitting on the foundation, I used to frame an actual mini wall, 12" high, 2x6 16 on center. Like a wall under the floor, lining up the studs. Insulate and VB.
Nice n tight n strong..
Those studs look like fuck, there should be a rim board, your hvac guy fucked up. You subfloor looks like complete dogshit. Just this picture says 10,000 negative words about your build.
Like the one hiding in the shadow of the picture... its gotta get taken out or a new one next to it. When I do shit like this (structural) replacing posts ($100 for a 6x6 lets say)
I charge major loot.
Last summer I replaced 3 6x6 posts that were actually set on top of concrete... but I put a stand off on them. $1700.
They were so rotted blow the dirt line the addition was about to collapse. Took me 1.5 hours by myself. Those jobs are awesome, but you cant help but sweat.
Yes that's an end ladder bridging. It's not that critical. That's installed every two feet before the floor goes on. It ensures the joists can withstand any lateral load against the side of the house. It's basically blocking so the floor doesn't tip like dominoes.
I see the bridging. But like the joist not being on the wall... thats what I see. But its a new build, it can get jacked up and maybe engineer approved
For a double stud where it is at. Without fucking everything up.
Easy fix for those who think it's necessary. Take out the stud that is sitting on what is left of the rim joist, and put a stud all the way down to the sill. For the joist that is cut inside the cavity, it is only a bit of blocking nothing too serious. The joists run parallel to the wall, you can see it in the picture.
The one more serious factor in this is whether the framers have finished their point load backframing. If they have, and there really are no transfer elements to go in, then there's a lot of overblown reaction in this thread.
Sure it's stupidity by hvac, but it's also not a massive deal to fix, as you note. A better location for the duct would be inside that wall's interior line, though, to allow for insulation.
OP is right in having it sorted out, even if it is fairly minor. Project structural should be called in sooner than later.
Pretty common in the HVAC work I see and do. More concerned with the I joist being used as a rim joist, should be something stronger. As for structural issues, they should put a strap across the cut out sections to help with shear forces, but there’s little issue with the weight here. A 2x4 wall won’t be holding anything up anyway. All of the specs regarding their strength and cut requirements are for spanning beams, not resting joists. The blocking below can be replaced a foot over easily enough.
Everyone insisting on a variance or engineers drawings must not work with much residential. We’re lucky to get plans at all, let alone a change order. Good luck convincing your GC to pay for an engineer to review it.
I joist are not designed to be used for rim joists. There is a specific product called rim board that is designed to be used for rim joists.
https://www.weyerhaeuser.com/woodproducts/engineered-lumber/timberstrand-lsl/timberstrand-lsl-rim-board/
100% wrong.
Rim board is a cheaper alternative to using joist, and comes with the benefit of not having to pack out the web to use face mount hangers, but you can totally use joist.
Regular rim joist isn’t even classified as structural - it’s just 1 1/8” thick OSB.
You can get structural rated rim board if the application calls for it, but in most cases it is over kill.
I joists can be used for rim joists if certain conditions are met. Squash blocking is required, and some manufacturers require the I joist to be filled in solid with plywood. The manufactured rim board does away with all these requirements. The cutting of the top and bottom flange is only an issue if the joists are not on solid bearing. If the framer uses the proper methods specified by the manufacturer, you are probably OK. Get your builder to prove to you that it's done right !
The joist is being used as a rim board, so there’s a lot more freedom when cutting the flanges/web. Just replace that floating stud with a longer one than reaches down to a solid base, and support the unsupported edges of your chipboard.
Re other comments, ‘proper’ rim board is only necessary on taller buildings, or buildings that require more rigorous fire detailing, ie apartment blocks.
Best check the rest of that guy’s work though.
looks like a joist should not be there . should be a thicker rim joist thing that you can cut into. that . If i was doing the hvac I would phone my manager and ask what to do. Most likely they would have to reframe or and add mech wall infront of that wall and put 3 by 10 duct down.
blocking board is fine looking at garage pic . the hvac guy should of went out side of wall on garage side and blast threw with round holes thrue the joist. and just frame it in continue the wall over.
Welcome to the world on residential construction! Doesn’t appear to be a load bearing wall but I can only see a little bit of the ceiling in the pic. To put your mind at ease call the local distributor of the I joist. They have staff engineers and can suggest a repair if needed. If it’s truly non bearing a couple blocks on the side of the cuts will suffice to stiffen the joist. Is it ugly yes but it’s not a big deal. To kick the can back down the road the wall should’ve been 2x6. Unless you live in a warm area there’s going to be some cold spots on that wall.
This was from my email and his responses... { note my tone is trying to give him the chance to admit its fucked }
*I have never seen an HVAC install cut through 90% of a joist before. Are they going to do anything to reinforce this?*
>What you see is normal. They are cut that way so they can put a elbow on the pipe to attached it from the basement. The other hole is a cold air return hole. Will double up any 2x4’s where needed where they are required.
*The drawings actually had a specific callout for a HVAC build out inside the garage wall. This is the way it should have been done.*
>The prints call for a double wall in some areas where either HVAC comes up and/ plumbing comes up through the basement. This is done on the outside of house wall or inside garage wall. Also when the plumber gets done the framer will come back and frame out any necessary double walls and also furr down the ceiling where needed
Easy reply: due to the obvious structural issues posed by the HVAC installation I would like to see the structural engineers note approving this installation method or your proposed solution of doubling up 2x4s. Cutting 90% of the joist is obviously not normal.
Surprising close to my previous issue with them. Trying to build a wall in 2x4 that called out 2x6.
I said if that is correct, as you're are assuring me it is, then I will need to see the prints updated, signed off by a PE and resubmitted
Correct. Normally engineers will make a note on the plans somewhere about allowed cuts in an engineered beam, the note might just say "engineered beam cuts only permitted within manufacturer's specs" or something like that. This exceeds that, so they would need to get updated prints, etc.
More importantly your GC is either a moron or a liar by telling you "this is normal, don't worry about it". Either way you can't trust them and they're gonna hide things. That's a huge problem.
He is for sure a liar and hopes I wont call him on it.
I've already won my first battle with him when they built a wall that was spec'd 2x6, wih 2x4s. I gave him 2 chances to admit it, but called corp office and 'just let them know the guy isn't building to prints" that got it fixed right up that same day..
My joke was i have ADHD and an internet connection, I will memorize these codes to prove my points.
There's a corporate office? If I were you I would raise this to them (the communication around it specifically. mistakes happen but managing the mistakes is the problem) and say that you've lost confidence in the PM and would like them to replace them. Your guy shouldn't have a job, covering up shitty work gets people killed.
Yeah its a semi-custom / spec builder.
More flexible than most, but not fully custom either.
Fully custom i would've gone with a SIP build and been pushing towards that passivehaus life.
Get ready to be charged when the engineer says it's ok.
Despite the consensus, that isn't a beam, and is bearing entirely in the concrete. The block that's cut out behind that is a look out block, and probably isn't specced on the plans.
This happens all the time. There's zero issue with this structurally.
Hopefully that was coordinated properly , back framing ? It’s 6” oval pipe . SMACNA & ASHRAE standards - residential = LT ga minimum and a minimum of 28ga for commercial. 26ga won’t be used in the application unless the installer and supplier went full retard . We install 10,000+ feet yearly and will not hear a sound inside the wall when installed correctly.
💯 this.
That said, the rim joist should be minimum 1.25" thick. This is wishy washy, but I've admittedly done it this way when I was short on rim joists in the delivery pkg.
This 'works', my houses are still standing from 30 yrs ago.
-struct tech (and old non-practising builder)
How is that Engineers and Architects don’t/can’t/won’t get together with builders and trades to design a structure that’s going to have HVAC/water/electrical accounted for when it’s designed? Is it too complicated? Too costly? Restrict aesthetic design too much.
I know why this stuff happens and no is ever really surprised when it does but…..alternatives?
People who build houses aren't the best or brightest. Usually they are the lowest bid on said job.... you get what you pay for. I don't understand how people are valuing these paper mache pieces of shit above 80k.
Wow.... sorry OP. I'm guessing a quick look at the MEP would verify, and if there isn't one, you should probably put the brakes on and have a chat with the GC. If you're the GC, god speed. But hey, looks like ol' Thor's Hammer in the middle there has got ya covered!
Hmm. The one being used as a rim joist isn’t that big of deal if some blocking is put under it and it’s just supporting floor load above it. You’re going to want the blocking anyway to hold the floor up there. You can actually use of scraps of TJI’s to piece in where it’s not holding truss load. Cutting the chord is an issue when the joist is spanning. This is sitting on bearing material.
The joist they hacked out underneath is just stabilizers for that TJI being used as the rim.
Im a design build GC, do lots of residential work. The chords arent too critical at the rim since the member is continously supported. Straps will take care of horizontal forces and some blocking easily addresses rhe vertical load, such as it is. I'd be more worried about the cut joist end(s) i think i see in the cavity? And why would you create a void in your insulation AND run your ducting in that uninsulated cavity? HVAC loves being in conditioned space and walls love being insulated. It sounds like tour designer anticipated this and it seems like a pretty easy fix. Move the duct into the chase as designed, repair the cut rim joist and make sure rheres nonfuckery going on with the joist ends.
Totally agree. A lot of people have no clue. They could just cut that joist/rim out completely and run a stud from top plate down to green board. It’s not holding anything we can see. What’s above it is what matters. Those joist can span longer than what they’ve cut out. The ducts in the exterior wall is an issue though. Will require foam board at the very least.
Well trades are going to shit because of money of course. No one wants to learn a trade they come in expecting top dollar but are are first month education level.
Lol yeah I noticed too.
At first I thought the framing carpenter decided to just place the joist around and over the bolt. Then I looked closely and saw that 2 PWF nailer plate boards 'sandwiches' the bolt, completely invalidating that bolt's purpose!
Serious question. Are all these crazy joist pictures in this sub for real? Or is it photoshopped? There’s no way that shit can stand up for a day let alone a week. I don’t get it.
I love when people show up in the middle of construction critiquing everything when they are uninformed themselves.
As a GC you do not stand there and fix every little detail in real time. Things happen. The big thing a stay on top of. For the little details Let the trades work, finish the job. Then when you QC the place make necessary repair
And yet, when the sub-contractor suggests jogging out of that wall, to go under cabinetry, or get boxed out, the designer & homebuilder will scream bloody hell! "Why can't you just make it work"?!!!!!
It’s over continuous direct bearing, but TJI are not used as rim joists. Solid bearing joists are required so your framer might get told to change it. Other than the obviously stupid decision to leave a stud with no lateral support there isn’t too much to worry about. If those runs are for mechanical under floor ventilation then there shouldn’t be a problem.
It also depends on your climate zone
They probably should have used oval pipefor the rough in instead of squish 5", yeah its more of a pain. Who ever designs some of these homes need to be smacked in the head. The amount of time a gas stove is placed above the tiny basement window is almost guaranteed. Then they place the squish blocks in the way.
Oh jesus, I never heard something put so well like this. I have to remember that for the future. I swear it's sometimes seems like people put a lot of effort into being a moron.
God damn butchers! I joists allowances vary a little between manufacturers, but they all have one thing in common: no holes on top or low flanges…
And of course you want to use a rim board, around your foundation not a I joist
I love how they threw on a longer piece of fire barrier to try and hide it…
I give this guy the chance to admit its wrong and he plants himself on these bullshit stances.
my head is just screaming... "Dude its fucked, you and I both know it is, and if you don't then you really need a new job.."
If the guy isn’t complying and you’re looking into getting a new GC, call the municipality and set up an inspection, tell them you would like a framing inspection, and that you will be on site when the inspector stops by. When the inspector comes he will probably give you crap about the project not being ready for inspection, then proceed to tell them you called them because your having issues with your GC and show him what’s going on. Inspectors love to stick it to GC’s and they will probably issue a stop work order at which point you can start legal against your GC, file the paperwork to have the permits removed and find a new contractor to take over. It’s a process and you’ll obviously burn all bridges with him, but the guy won’t be scamming anyone else, and you could potentially sue him and recoup some
I've never seen a build using an i-joist as a rim joist, it's always solid wood. Also duct chase should be done on an interior wall, never an exterior wall. It compromises the insulation of the wall
Normally it is actually a "rim board" product not a TJI. But essentially a fully supported "joist" laying on the foundation. Supporting the outer rim of a building. But not limited to exterior areas.
So, whats the verdict on other joist being cut? And, I hope you are reaching out to the manufactor with pictures to find out proper repair and cost to repair. Or if they have a way to mitigate it with out tearing the joist out and replacing. Then, I would be talking to the boss of the HVAC company, and the general contractor with these quotes of estimates in hand.
the blocking that was cut ( under side picture ) was not a concern of the MFG as long as the two adjacent are still in tact.
They were at that time, but i will see what this guy has gotten into next.
Then it’s not as bad. You’ll loose some heat/cool into garage- which might be a good thing- depending on how you use your garage. And that joist is not spanning anything, it’s directly on top of your concrete wall that I assume goes straight down to a footer? So cutting the web doesn’t really weaken anything since it is supported by your concrete wall directly underneath.
I’d probably be okay with it if it didn’t screw up/fail some required inspection.
You have a hack on the job. Also that wall should be 2x6 exterior wall that would allow for insulation and more room to cut bottom plate so they don’t cut into TGI. The 30x3.5 return should be hard ducted not panning. At least the hurricane strap is in. LOL that’s NY code/rules in da house
So in Michigan you can cut a rim joist. However like many previous people said it should be a solid joist. On top of that, here we cannot run duct on outside walls without 2” of insulation behind it. Here you have no room for insulation.
My question is where in the world would you find an inspector to pass this? In Florida we had an inspector named d$%& head Pete and he was notorious for dumb/ridiculous shit like leaves in the downholes during autumn and not even piles like 3 leaves that fell in after we wrapped up the job and went home. And other shit like needing linear rear every 18 inches on a block wall (blocks are 7" and like 5/8ths to allow for a mortar joint) so basically he's saying at the bottom of every 3rd course.(which the proper way is to add reinforcement wire every 2-3 courses) Lmfao. Among many other things. But it's mind boggling that there's an inspector anywhere as uptight as alot of them are to pass this crap. Get it fixed dont let that fly its your house you're paying for! I've seen some unreasonable fixes that aren't a big deal but this one is a huge one for long term durability of the house.
Looks like supply air for the bonus room over garage? He did a double return down the wall beside those pipes in your 1 picture. I bet he cut out the joist too. Either way. A bulk head should have been made. This is very wrong...
You could’ve stopped at HVAC crew. I’m assuming that you took this photo from the unconditioned garage, probably should’ve been 2x6 wall. Fill in the web with plywood.
Ok HVAC guys and plumbers quit cutting the shit out of stuff. WTF . When I was a super I never left the plumbers or HVAC guys in a building to long without checking on them . They would constantly cut shit
*HVAC guys will cut out*
*Beams to put in duct work if*
*Left unattended*
\- brownie5599
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Why are they even running ducts like this? Is this supposed to be there per the drawings?
All my ducts to the second story are in an interior wall and then run through the floor.
Why are there uninsulated ducts in an exterior wall? Is this 1950?
Not only that, but the return is let's say 3.5"x30" and what appears to be 28ga? Even 26ga itll be noisy and duct popping will probably happen, regardless of the cross breaks.....I do hvac and I feel bad seeing things like this, gives us a bad name. But that's the least of his worries here it would seem.
I wouldn’t mind that gauge if the whole cavity gets spray foam. It will be crazy rigid then.
It would only be acceptable if this is house is getting the majority of it's insulation as continuous insulation outside of the stud cavity, otherwise yeah this is going to be noisy and likely have a lot of condensation inside the duct, and potentially on the outer surface of the wall here.
I wouldn’t want it even then. Beyond insulation, the chance that the exterior isn’t perfectly air sealed, and that duct sweats in summer… OP, please stand up and have this 100% rectified. An ounce of prevention… There is no way I’d want that HVAC person/company back on site. If they do this to structural members, I’d have zero confidence in the HVAC install even getting close to following mfg specs/industry best practices. This looks worse than the butchering my century home endured from renovations in the 40’s. I do HVAC, and that single duct run communicates many things - all bad. A litmus test that they completely failed. Frankly I’d much, much rather have a chase on the interior for the duct to run in. It would likely even make the job faster doing it that way.
I'm on the commercial design side and am continuously surprised how low the bar is in residential.... especially with the big corporate builders.
These guys are knuckleheads. Need to hide their chainsaws. I used to work for a builder. 3000 ft² house. The center 2x6 walls were for all the mechanicals. They came in and cut the outside walls clean through in about 10 different areas. I thought my head was going to explode. Lost my shit
I'm leaning toward the latter of the two
Who's installing ductwork before the house is sheethed
Might be a garage wall
Yeah plus tji as a rim
1950 flashback again. Why aren't they using 2" X 6" framing on exterior walls for the added work & insulation? Now it's more expensive foam for energy regulations & no space for ducks. I'd have solid lumber on the band/perimeter framing also. Not that'd solve the butcher job going on there. Cut the steel stub on the, I beam,! Fire the HVAC guy.
I only build internal projects, but I went back to 2x4 exterior framing on my last project because I went completely exterior with insulation. 6" of Ridgid in 2" sheets . 2x4 16 oc gave me more anchor points for strapping than 2x6 24 oc.
I don't know where you're located but in NY state, USA federal regulation/state minimum for energy conservation is 2" X 6" stud with R-19 batt. insulation, or 2" X 4" stud with R-11 insulation + 2" rigid board insulation. the poly isocyanate with reflective coating, (black or silver) is so much $ it's cheaper to go 2" X 6" with no broad insulation unless you're rich. You have the room to drill for wiring & pipes without turning a 2x4 into furring strips with no strength. Both 16" O. C. framing. Only roof system trusses on 24" O. C. for lower tier upstate. Further south roof regulations get tougher, so probably 16" O. C. for roof system. The affordable foam board, (forgot the chemical composition), shrinks so much dimensionally off gasing over time it doesn't even pay to use. Studies show now. So even taping shiplap or v notched regular foam board doesn't pay because the shrinkage is so much that the tap is most likely to tear. Even if it doesn't the tape is over air. For extreme wind areas.
I see this pretty commonly, assuming this is the wall bordering the garage and house. That wall will be furred out on the garage side and spray foamed, or at least it should be Edit had another look and this pretty clearly isnt a garage wall. Woops
I think it is actually the garage partition and I believe your initial analysis to be correct.
It is actually a garage. Look at the first imgur link the OP posted in his first post.
Interesting. Im not familiar with that brick veneer looking finish below the wood structure so figured it was an exterior finish of some kind In that case ya id assume (and hope) that this will be furred out and insulated down the line
I thought it was exterior, as well, for the same reason you mention. That pattern is on the other side as well. It's hard to tell from the pic, but it looks like you could put another wall on the foundation, giving plenty of room for insulation.
Garage
Interesting question. I have same setup on my 1957 house. It was just fiberglass insulation in the cavity around the ducts. I removed all the exterior sheathing and batt insulation and filled all cavities with closed cell spray foam from the exterior, including those with ducts. Maybe they will do similar here? Frankly, I think that would be fine and would prefer a sheet metal duct encased in foam than any alternative I can think of. And the foam will make it rigid AF. Would be preferable with a 6” deep stud to get about 2” of foam between duct and sheathing. My guys actually overfilled all cavities and used giant flexible sawzall blades to trim foam flush the studs so that there would be no gap between foam face and sheathing. -NYSPE
Maybe a vent pipe for a basement kitchen setup?
Cold air return
But it clearly looks to be a garage not full exterior. As if slamming 5 studs together at 1.4 r factor is any worse or better than that ducting?
My local code allows this. 99% of the time we’re left with no other option than that anyhow. 2” panning between the wall stack and the exterior wall itself is what is required, given the interior wall is in a conditioned space.
**UPDATE** Just got off the phone with the MFG tech support. He said that while that job is terrible, since it is the rim joist it would be ok if they add in appropriate squash boards and recommended taking that sliver of webbing out to replace with either a full stud to rim or with a header at the top to take that stud load. I am still going to check the rest of the joists today though. Any standard joist cut like that will be NG 100%
Exactly. This sub is both helpful and completely detrimental at times. There are people talking out of their ass way too much.
I had reached out to MFG yesterday, but it was eating at me too much to not post here as well. It's still terrible work, and it still needs extra support added, so that part is valid.
Right. But the HVAC isn’t even done. Your builder isn’t going to go and fix every little thing the minute it happens. HVAC and other subs all cut things loose and knock stuff out their way all the time. Then when the subs are done the builder sends in the carpenters to button everything up before drywall. It’s good to check everything out and make sure you’re not getting screwed or something isn’t getting missed but you’re going to drive yourself and your builder crazy lol.
>Then when the subs are done the builder sends in the carpenters to button everything up before drywall. Or they just send the drywaller a knowing that whatever shit they slid through is unlikely to pop up before warranty runs out.
Yup. 'Buttoning up' is too late.
For some issues sure. Plumber has to cut through a joist for a toilet. Better header it off as soon as possible. There are obviously situations where it needs addressed immediately. My point is that not everything requires immediate action and just about everything can be fixed, it’s just a matter of how much it will cost. Some fixes are way cheaper earlier.
>Some fixes are way cheaper earlier. Yes, for clarity, this is what I meant. Sooner is cheaper to repair instead of buttoning it up, taking more time and cost.
Totally agree. Just didn’t want to type out an 8 page essay on every instance of repairs you may run into. Which at least for the buyer, don’t cost them any more money. Inefficiency kills the builder.
💯. It's why I got out...I'm more hands on technical, instead of administrative.
That should be a chase, an the architect shouldve made room for it
Gee, are you expecting an architect/engineer to actually do thwir job?!!!!!! Don't you realize that they don't have to. They just put that little tag on the prints " Field Verify". I'm here to say I can "Field Verify" that theae clowns are arrogant, lazy douchebags. Half rheir drawings are cut & paste from previous projects, regardless of the current project's requirements. I welcome all you FUCKING NERDS to chime in now.
This is really tbe answer. Op is shitting on his HVAC guy for doing the bedt he has with whats available
You’re being downvoted but you’re right. I’ve worked residential construction for ages, it’s almost “the norm” that subs run through like a tornado; before the supervisors go back and repair/change any issues. Having to fix the spot in this pic looks annoying, but for all we know, the HVAC guy ran 100 miles of clean ducts around the rest of the house. There’s always a few fixes on the construction company, but the other 90% of the work is done; a few fixes isn’t bad. They do tend to wait on other subs to finish to minimize the amount of times “damage control” carpenters have to come back. With that said, this is a bad example because that looks so sketchy I’d question all the work they did.
100% agree. We're plumbers and when the homeowners are running around after hours it slows everything down. Albeit, sometimes it can be beneficial but I see this commonly from our HVAC guys in midwest all day.
Like the internet
That's the only thing I would have wanted fixed right away, the pitiful little piece of webbing under the stud (and the uninsulated duct). The rim joist can be hacked up if its sitting on a wall as long as the studs are supported. Though we tend to use manufactured Rim board instead of I-joists, I've seen enough comments in here saying that I joists are fine- slightly more work for nailing the ends I guess. Also thanks for the update and good idea on checking the other joists!
Oh i am checking **everything** dont you worry about that. I like this sort of stuff and its adjacent enough to my work that i've had some exposure to know what is right. When i saw a I-joist cut like that it set off alarms from seeing hundreds of posts / stories about that.
I’d love to build your house lmao
Nightmare client. This is why I charge more if anyone mentions reddit lol. Sprinkler fitters commenting on framing convincing the owner the house is going to collapse.
Is this a subdivision house or a custom?
" How hard do I push back that it's done correctly? " You push back ALL the way until it is done correctly. Normally you'd make the GC/builder remove & replace the damaged work (not just patch) to get their full attention. Sorry to say OP, but with the rim joist wrong and the HVAC this bad, you are probably in the world of canceling this GC contract. I'd get an inspector out there quick because you probably have more problems in your build.
Thanks for the confirmation! This is my second time going against this GC for building off prints / out of spec. Hope this HVAC is up to date on his bonded coverage. He's about to pay for some new beams.
An engineer will most likely not make them replace the cut joists. They’ll design a reinforcement solution with what is there usually. But I would definitely insist that they provide you with the stamped engineer letter/sketch and also that that have the engineer come back and say that the repair was done in conformance with that design. And in residential, bonds are not really a thing. And the cost of this is like two or three orders of magnitude below what any contractor would go to a bond or insurance over. They’ll just do the repair and back charge the sub.
This is probably what will happen but The inspector will require it for your framing / rough inspections. I would call the county ASAP and get the to document it, so the GC doesn’t do what he thinks is right and get his engineer to stamp it.
Usually the supplier can get you an engineered repair detail. And full replacement isn't required. It is pretty fucked tho.
You can cut that joist all the way through because it is sitting on the foundation.
Ya but not the one at 90 degrees to it, cut it back further add a header joist and some hangers
That just looks like a stiffener between the joists
lol I see that now. Thanks.
That 90 degree "joist" is lust blocking they make you do on floors and roofs. Technically, there is nothing structurally damaged here. Is it a butcher job...100% it is
Looking at the orientation of the ply, it is indeed just blocking. Unless that is a heated garage, I'm not sure why hvac is in the exterior wall. Butcher away, good sirs.
Ya, unfortunately with builds where there’s smoke, there’s fire. If you’re seeing shit like this, what are they hiding.
I'm with this comment. This is unacceptable. Fire and rethink your investment and who you can afford to fix this.
Yup, if the GC wants to cut corners with cheap contractors, it is their responsibility to make sure it gets done right. This is why we have building codes, and why good subcontractors are bonded/insured. Don’t let the GC push the cost of fixing this to you.
That takes an extraordinary amount of stupidity to even pull that one off. I want to congratulate your contractor for hiring the mentally disabled!
This is a knock to the mentally disabled. The hvac guys are lazy shit heads. Fire them.
The difference here is that the mentally disabled can’t help that they are in that situation. Who ever the clown was that performed this masterpiece, can.
I'm a diyer and this looks retarded to me at first glance. Like I can't imagine someone looked at this and thought "yeah that looks good" and not setting off multiple alarm bells. That one two by four in the middle is being held up by a tiny bit of osb and subfloor. Clearly this person though yeah we need some support for the bottom of the stud and said "shit this 1 inch section of osb will hold it".
Stacked like my kids building blocks
It would seem this clown has made fucking up an art form. That is absolutely ridiculous. I'd just kick him off site.
Why would they not use Rim Boad on a exterior wall?
Forgot to order it probably
Yeah you have to plan ahead for rim jobs
Just cut it the rest of the way out and put a double 2x4 in to replace the single one thats all hacked up. That I joist aint really spanning anything. Doesnt even need to be there. Could just be studs. Cmon guys. I know it looks stupid, but ya'll are acting like somethings gonna collapse.
Oh shit.. nevermind lol. Tear the house down. I just looked inside the hole. Hahaha.. ill leave my old post up so I can feel the burn of my mistake.
Exactly! It's not spanning so it's like a small window here. However, for the parallel joists sitting on the foundation, I used to frame an actual mini wall, 12" high, 2x6 16 on center. Like a wall under the floor, lining up the studs. Insulate and VB. Nice n tight n strong..
Those studs look like fuck, there should be a rim board, your hvac guy fucked up. You subfloor looks like complete dogshit. Just this picture says 10,000 negative words about your build.
Yeah but did you see the joist that is cut
Like the one hiding in the shadow of the picture... its gotta get taken out or a new one next to it. When I do shit like this (structural) replacing posts ($100 for a 6x6 lets say) I charge major loot. Last summer I replaced 3 6x6 posts that were actually set on top of concrete... but I put a stand off on them. $1700. They were so rotted blow the dirt line the addition was about to collapse. Took me 1.5 hours by myself. Those jobs are awesome, but you cant help but sweat.
Yes that's an end ladder bridging. It's not that critical. That's installed every two feet before the floor goes on. It ensures the joists can withstand any lateral load against the side of the house. It's basically blocking so the floor doesn't tip like dominoes.
I see the bridging. But like the joist not being on the wall... thats what I see. But its a new build, it can get jacked up and maybe engineer approved For a double stud where it is at. Without fucking everything up.
HVAC on an insulated wall? I mean this is not a great idea, and a hack job
Easy fix for those who think it's necessary. Take out the stud that is sitting on what is left of the rim joist, and put a stud all the way down to the sill. For the joist that is cut inside the cavity, it is only a bit of blocking nothing too serious. The joists run parallel to the wall, you can see it in the picture.
The one more serious factor in this is whether the framers have finished their point load backframing. If they have, and there really are no transfer elements to go in, then there's a lot of overblown reaction in this thread. Sure it's stupidity by hvac, but it's also not a massive deal to fix, as you note. A better location for the duct would be inside that wall's interior line, though, to allow for insulation. OP is right in having it sorted out, even if it is fairly minor. Project structural should be called in sooner than later.
thanks! that was my thought, the longer it takes to find a solution the more things that would need redone.
Pretty common in the HVAC work I see and do. More concerned with the I joist being used as a rim joist, should be something stronger. As for structural issues, they should put a strap across the cut out sections to help with shear forces, but there’s little issue with the weight here. A 2x4 wall won’t be holding anything up anyway. All of the specs regarding their strength and cut requirements are for spanning beams, not resting joists. The blocking below can be replaced a foot over easily enough. Everyone insisting on a variance or engineers drawings must not work with much residential. We’re lucky to get plans at all, let alone a change order. Good luck convincing your GC to pay for an engineer to review it.
I joist are not designed to be used for rim joists. There is a specific product called rim board that is designed to be used for rim joists. https://www.weyerhaeuser.com/woodproducts/engineered-lumber/timberstrand-lsl/timberstrand-lsl-rim-board/
100% wrong. Rim board is a cheaper alternative to using joist, and comes with the benefit of not having to pack out the web to use face mount hangers, but you can totally use joist. Regular rim joist isn’t even classified as structural - it’s just 1 1/8” thick OSB. You can get structural rated rim board if the application calls for it, but in most cases it is over kill.
nice rim job
Looking over MFG install docs they do show some examples of it used as a rim joist, so I'm thinking that is ok.
I joists can be used for rim joists if certain conditions are met. Squash blocking is required, and some manufacturers require the I joist to be filled in solid with plywood. The manufactured rim board does away with all these requirements. The cutting of the top and bottom flange is only an issue if the joists are not on solid bearing. If the framer uses the proper methods specified by the manufacturer, you are probably OK. Get your builder to prove to you that it's done right !
Oof. I’d still very much prefer to use solid wood
Good luck finding dimensional lumber in 11⅞. The correct way to do this is rim board, with 11⅞blocking nailed to set as "studs" vertically.
Yep. As long as the proper squash blocks are installed. Remember the I portion of the joist is only 1/2 inch osb.
lol rim board.
So for the record... you are suggesting a rim job?
The joist is being used as a rim board, so there’s a lot more freedom when cutting the flanges/web. Just replace that floating stud with a longer one than reaches down to a solid base, and support the unsupported edges of your chipboard. Re other comments, ‘proper’ rim board is only necessary on taller buildings, or buildings that require more rigorous fire detailing, ie apartment blocks. Best check the rest of that guy’s work though.
looks like a joist should not be there . should be a thicker rim joist thing that you can cut into. that . If i was doing the hvac I would phone my manager and ask what to do. Most likely they would have to reframe or and add mech wall infront of that wall and put 3 by 10 duct down. blocking board is fine looking at garage pic . the hvac guy should of went out side of wall on garage side and blast threw with round holes thrue the joist. and just frame it in continue the wall over.
Welcome to the world on residential construction! Doesn’t appear to be a load bearing wall but I can only see a little bit of the ceiling in the pic. To put your mind at ease call the local distributor of the I joist. They have staff engineers and can suggest a repair if needed. If it’s truly non bearing a couple blocks on the side of the cuts will suffice to stiffen the joist. Is it ugly yes but it’s not a big deal. To kick the can back down the road the wall should’ve been 2x6. Unless you live in a warm area there’s going to be some cold spots on that wall.
Leaving that tiny little piece of I joist under the stud 😂
>>crush crush<< 😆
This was from my email and his responses... { note my tone is trying to give him the chance to admit its fucked } *I have never seen an HVAC install cut through 90% of a joist before. Are they going to do anything to reinforce this?* >What you see is normal. They are cut that way so they can put a elbow on the pipe to attached it from the basement. The other hole is a cold air return hole. Will double up any 2x4’s where needed where they are required. *The drawings actually had a specific callout for a HVAC build out inside the garage wall. This is the way it should have been done.* >The prints call for a double wall in some areas where either HVAC comes up and/ plumbing comes up through the basement. This is done on the outside of house wall or inside garage wall. Also when the plumber gets done the framer will come back and frame out any necessary double walls and also furr down the ceiling where needed
Easy reply: due to the obvious structural issues posed by the HVAC installation I would like to see the structural engineers note approving this installation method or your proposed solution of doubling up 2x4s. Cutting 90% of the joist is obviously not normal.
Surprising close to my previous issue with them. Trying to build a wall in 2x4 that called out 2x6. I said if that is correct, as you're are assuring me it is, then I will need to see the prints updated, signed off by a PE and resubmitted
Correct. Normally engineers will make a note on the plans somewhere about allowed cuts in an engineered beam, the note might just say "engineered beam cuts only permitted within manufacturer's specs" or something like that. This exceeds that, so they would need to get updated prints, etc. More importantly your GC is either a moron or a liar by telling you "this is normal, don't worry about it". Either way you can't trust them and they're gonna hide things. That's a huge problem.
He is for sure a liar and hopes I wont call him on it. I've already won my first battle with him when they built a wall that was spec'd 2x6, wih 2x4s. I gave him 2 chances to admit it, but called corp office and 'just let them know the guy isn't building to prints" that got it fixed right up that same day.. My joke was i have ADHD and an internet connection, I will memorize these codes to prove my points.
There's a corporate office? If I were you I would raise this to them (the communication around it specifically. mistakes happen but managing the mistakes is the problem) and say that you've lost confidence in the PM and would like them to replace them. Your guy shouldn't have a job, covering up shitty work gets people killed.
Yeah its a semi-custom / spec builder. More flexible than most, but not fully custom either. Fully custom i would've gone with a SIP build and been pushing towards that passivehaus life.
Get ready to be charged when the engineer says it's ok. Despite the consensus, that isn't a beam, and is bearing entirely in the concrete. The block that's cut out behind that is a look out block, and probably isn't specced on the plans. This happens all the time. There's zero issue with this structurally.
An other joist bite the dust! 🎶
is that duct going to be in direct contact with the exterior sheeting?
It's a garage wall, so not technically "exterior". OP said that should have been a 2x6 wall.
That’s on the architect for not designing utility walls in the floor plans.
Is that an outside wall with hvac duct in it?
Hopefully that was coordinated properly , back framing ? It’s 6” oval pipe . SMACNA & ASHRAE standards - residential = LT ga minimum and a minimum of 28ga for commercial. 26ga won’t be used in the application unless the installer and supplier went full retard . We install 10,000+ feet yearly and will not hear a sound inside the wall when installed correctly.
This is about the only time it is acceptable, still hack work but acceptable. The wheight is all being g transfered to the foundation
💯 this. That said, the rim joist should be minimum 1.25" thick. This is wishy washy, but I've admittedly done it this way when I was short on rim joists in the delivery pkg. This 'works', my houses are still standing from 30 yrs ago. -struct tech (and old non-practising builder)
Those are engineered joists. That one is fucked and needs replaced.
You could always have an inspector come out.... So he can go ahead and fail it and you can get your shit fixed now before it's a huge issue later.
Never leave most hvac or plumbers alone with a saw and I'm a plumber
This is actually kind of adorable. “Aww, buddy, you tried…”
How is that Engineers and Architects don’t/can’t/won’t get together with builders and trades to design a structure that’s going to have HVAC/water/electrical accounted for when it’s designed? Is it too complicated? Too costly? Restrict aesthetic design too much. I know why this stuff happens and no is ever really surprised when it does but…..alternatives?
People who build houses aren't the best or brightest. Usually they are the lowest bid on said job.... you get what you pay for. I don't understand how people are valuing these paper mache pieces of shit above 80k.
Wow.... sorry OP. I'm guessing a quick look at the MEP would verify, and if there isn't one, you should probably put the brakes on and have a chat with the GC. If you're the GC, god speed. But hey, looks like ol' Thor's Hammer in the middle there has got ya covered!
Hmm. The one being used as a rim joist isn’t that big of deal if some blocking is put under it and it’s just supporting floor load above it. You’re going to want the blocking anyway to hold the floor up there. You can actually use of scraps of TJI’s to piece in where it’s not holding truss load. Cutting the chord is an issue when the joist is spanning. This is sitting on bearing material. The joist they hacked out underneath is just stabilizers for that TJI being used as the rim.
Wut The Fuq
Im a design build GC, do lots of residential work. The chords arent too critical at the rim since the member is continously supported. Straps will take care of horizontal forces and some blocking easily addresses rhe vertical load, such as it is. I'd be more worried about the cut joist end(s) i think i see in the cavity? And why would you create a void in your insulation AND run your ducting in that uninsulated cavity? HVAC loves being in conditioned space and walls love being insulated. It sounds like tour designer anticipated this and it seems like a pretty easy fix. Move the duct into the chase as designed, repair the cut rim joist and make sure rheres nonfuckery going on with the joist ends.
Totally agree. A lot of people have no clue. They could just cut that joist/rim out completely and run a stud from top plate down to green board. It’s not holding anything we can see. What’s above it is what matters. Those joist can span longer than what they’ve cut out. The ducts in the exterior wall is an issue though. Will require foam board at the very least.
Well trades are going to shit because of money of course. No one wants to learn a trade they come in expecting top dollar but are are first month education level.
That looks like a war crime.
What do the drawing’s show? Sometimes these builders don’t get mech drawings done and just go ya ya do whatever to a resi hvac kid making 23$ an hour.
I’m also curious about that single anchor bolt positioned between a splice in the bottom plate.
Lol yeah I noticed too. At first I thought the framing carpenter decided to just place the joist around and over the bolt. Then I looked closely and saw that 2 PWF nailer plate boards 'sandwiches' the bolt, completely invalidating that bolt's purpose!
Yes there’s a lot to unpack in this picture. Inspector should have fun with it.
Should have been 2x6 wall.
Should be an interior 2x6 wall, too. There's no place for the insulation on this exterior wall.
Absolutely, good point!
Serious question. Are all these crazy joist pictures in this sub for real? Or is it photoshopped? There’s no way that shit can stand up for a day let alone a week. I don’t get it.
I love when people show up in the middle of construction critiquing everything when they are uninformed themselves. As a GC you do not stand there and fix every little detail in real time. Things happen. The big thing a stay on top of. For the little details Let the trades work, finish the job. Then when you QC the place make necessary repair
I wasn't trying to stop and fix every little thing, but this one (on initial look) seemed worth bringing up now.
Lmao @ that center stud hanging on for dear life
Oh this is all perfectly fine, move along nothing to see here.
Lmfao they cut the the top cord why even bother using ijoists? Doesn’t that render it useless?
You seem to not understand what this rim board does. However the joist in the cavity is concerning.
The things people will do for an extra 1 sq ft of floor space.
Rim joist is a *lousy* application for I joist.
And yet, when the sub-contractor suggests jogging out of that wall, to go under cabinetry, or get boxed out, the designer & homebuilder will scream bloody hell! "Why can't you just make it work"?!!!!!
It’s over continuous direct bearing, but TJI are not used as rim joists. Solid bearing joists are required so your framer might get told to change it. Other than the obviously stupid decision to leave a stud with no lateral support there isn’t too much to worry about. If those runs are for mechanical under floor ventilation then there shouldn’t be a problem. It also depends on your climate zone
It’s the rim you can cut that they should of used a rim board though not a tj
They probably should have used oval pipefor the rough in instead of squish 5", yeah its more of a pain. Who ever designs some of these homes need to be smacked in the head. The amount of time a gas stove is placed above the tiny basement window is almost guaranteed. Then they place the squish blocks in the way.
I am a sheet metal installer . And I have never cut a joist like that
This is a full stop!! Structural integrity is compromised
Is this a lack of understanding the importance of structural integrity or just not giving a fuck?
Why is this board in the way of my duct work…
When gc is this bad they need a call out on this sub and from the highest mountain. Mfer should switch careers before they kill someone.
This is undeniably a hack job but may not be as bad as you think structurally. That joist is likely under no tension, only bearing. Ask your engineer.
2x4 exterior walls in 2023? The shame!
That amount of idiot took a lot of effort
Oh jesus, I never heard something put so well like this. I have to remember that for the future. I swear it's sometimes seems like people put a lot of effort into being a moron.
God damn butchers! I joists allowances vary a little between manufacturers, but they all have one thing in common: no holes on top or low flanges… And of course you want to use a rim board, around your foundation not a I joist I love how they threw on a longer piece of fire barrier to try and hide it…
I give this guy the chance to admit its wrong and he plants himself on these bullshit stances. my head is just screaming... "Dude its fucked, you and I both know it is, and if you don't then you really need a new job.."
If the guy isn’t complying and you’re looking into getting a new GC, call the municipality and set up an inspection, tell them you would like a framing inspection, and that you will be on site when the inspector stops by. When the inspector comes he will probably give you crap about the project not being ready for inspection, then proceed to tell them you called them because your having issues with your GC and show him what’s going on. Inspectors love to stick it to GC’s and they will probably issue a stop work order at which point you can start legal against your GC, file the paperwork to have the permits removed and find a new contractor to take over. It’s a process and you’ll obviously burn all bridges with him, but the guy won’t be scamming anyone else, and you could potentially sue him and recoup some
Jesus Christ. That’s literally all I can say.
I've never seen a build using an i-joist as a rim joist, it's always solid wood. Also duct chase should be done on an interior wall, never an exterior wall. It compromises the insulation of the wall
Is the rim cut and and a joist?
Completely unacceptable. The joist should be replaced.
It's not a joist. It's a rim board
Never heard of a rim board. A non load bearing “joist”?
Normally it is actually a "rim board" product not a TJI. But essentially a fully supported "joist" laying on the foundation. Supporting the outer rim of a building. But not limited to exterior areas.
So much for structural integrity
So, whats the verdict on other joist being cut? And, I hope you are reaching out to the manufactor with pictures to find out proper repair and cost to repair. Or if they have a way to mitigate it with out tearing the joist out and replacing. Then, I would be talking to the boss of the HVAC company, and the general contractor with these quotes of estimates in hand.
the blocking that was cut ( under side picture ) was not a concern of the MFG as long as the two adjacent are still in tact. They were at that time, but i will see what this guy has gotten into next.
Remove that shit in the middle as well, add a stud to the edge of that cut and call it a day
Please tell me that you told the GC to stop everything until this is addressed.
You need to fix that. What the hell.
Why it's a rim board?
Are you looking in through the garage?
Correct.
Then it’s not as bad. You’ll loose some heat/cool into garage- which might be a good thing- depending on how you use your garage. And that joist is not spanning anything, it’s directly on top of your concrete wall that I assume goes straight down to a footer? So cutting the web doesn’t really weaken anything since it is supported by your concrete wall directly underneath. I’d probably be okay with it if it didn’t screw up/fail some required inspection.
those studs should all be sistered right down to the sill plate. thats the only way this POS is going to keep standing.
You have a hack on the job. Also that wall should be 2x6 exterior wall that would allow for insulation and more room to cut bottom plate so they don’t cut into TGI. The 30x3.5 return should be hard ducted not panning. At least the hurricane strap is in. LOL that’s NY code/rules in da house
You need to hire a diff hvac guy pronto.. And see if the crew can fix the hack job he's done.. wtaf.. this can't be a licensed hvac guy.
Why wasn't the HVAC designed in from the get go? Did you add it later?
So in Michigan you can cut a rim joist. However like many previous people said it should be a solid joist. On top of that, here we cannot run duct on outside walls without 2” of insulation behind it. Here you have no room for insulation.
At that point replace the stud for a longer one.
This is funny because I know this is what my "by owner hvac" client is about to do to his 600k basement build. Can't talk to ego!
My question is where in the world would you find an inspector to pass this? In Florida we had an inspector named d$%& head Pete and he was notorious for dumb/ridiculous shit like leaves in the downholes during autumn and not even piles like 3 leaves that fell in after we wrapped up the job and went home. And other shit like needing linear rear every 18 inches on a block wall (blocks are 7" and like 5/8ths to allow for a mortar joint) so basically he's saying at the bottom of every 3rd course.(which the proper way is to add reinforcement wire every 2-3 courses) Lmfao. Among many other things. But it's mind boggling that there's an inspector anywhere as uptight as alot of them are to pass this crap. Get it fixed dont let that fly its your house you're paying for! I've seen some unreasonable fixes that aren't a big deal but this one is a huge one for long term durability of the house.
Oof
You guys would hate my drywall cuts before I tape and mud lol
Looks like supply air for the bonus room over garage? He did a double return down the wall beside those pipes in your 1 picture. I bet he cut out the joist too. Either way. A bulk head should have been made. This is very wrong...
You could’ve stopped at HVAC crew. I’m assuming that you took this photo from the unconditioned garage, probably should’ve been 2x6 wall. Fill in the web with plywood.
Ok HVAC guys and plumbers quit cutting the shit out of stuff. WTF . When I was a super I never left the plumbers or HVAC guys in a building to long without checking on them . They would constantly cut shit
HVAC guys will cut out beams to put in duct work if left unattended
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Why are they even running ducts like this? Is this supposed to be there per the drawings? All my ducts to the second story are in an interior wall and then run through the floor.
Why is an I-joist being used as rimboard in the first place?
That isn't full joist they're just filler . It was only 16 inches it stopped at the actual joist
Just Cali maybe but I’ve never ran an I joist for a rim. Not allowed
He wedged in some 2×4 on top of plywood?! Wtf?!
We use a double LSL rimboard for the rim, not a joist.