The rich meaty flavor comes from the mailliard reaction from the beef searing. Put the mince in a hot pan with some oil and smoosh it down to get as much contact with the pan as possible. Then just leav it for a few minutes to get something resembling a steak crust on one side of the mince. Can try and flip it then before eventually breaking it up.
Keep going I'm close...
No but seriously. So you try and flip it, then break it up, cook the mince all the way through, and then remove it and cook the onions? Then add the mince back in at the end for a moment to mix up and serve?
If including veg, when would you add those?
I'm gonna deglaze it, you wanna help me?
But in all seriousness, I would remove it and cook the onions, then add the mince back in for a moment like you mentioned. If including veg, I would say it depends what kind. If it's peppers, they're probably going in with the onions. If it's something more starchy or dense I might want to let them cook longer, so I might do them separately to cook them through without burning the onions.
That's pretty much it. Most cooking seems to be controlling heat transfer rate/exposure length and moisture to get the chemical reactions you want. Only real practical way to do that is via the order you put them in the pan.
I generally sear whatever meat I'm using first, then remove it and saute the aromatics in an onion, garlic, herb stems, mushrooms, carrot, celery kind of order (as others have noted this can kind of deglaze the pan and absorb all the delicious brown bits (fond) that are stuck to it. This is also a good opportunity to put any spices or curry paste like ingredients (they're usually just smooshed armoatics and spices) as the other stuff in the pan can prevent it from burning.
Any other vegetables that I want cooked will go in with whatever cooking liquid I'm using. Stuff like leafy herbs, cherry tomatoes, sometimes olives will just get stirred in at the end (whatever I want to be a concentrated feature flavor, or to hold structural integrity).
The rich meaty flavor form GROUND BEEF comes from it being ground beef. You are wasting a lot of time on your ground beef dishes if you are focusing on the "malliard reaction" not much to gain there.
Instead, you should be infusing ground meats with aromatics. Which means to do Aromatics first, flavor the cooking fat then cook the meat! The smell will tell you. The Glorious smell.
You are not flavoring onions, you are using onions to flavor the meat.
You're using beef tallow, which has more flavor than any vegetable cooking oil, and picking up flavor from the fond (aka browned bits on the bottom of the pan) as the onions lose moisture. Where does all that flavor go to make the onions "tasteless"?
I think the onion can flavour gets more “muddled” or “subdued” if you don’t get the ratio right. Too much beef fat and it ends up tasting like beef with a hint of *something* instead of a complex flavour medley.
Though I don’t cook with beef much anymore, I’m also onions first.
I don’t notice too much of a difference either way. I do tend to start with onions because I keep them cooking with the beef and like them more browned.
It’s not better flavor though though. There is no good explanation for this. Onions first, beef once they’re close to done, deglaze with water or whatever liquid once the beef is done. Onions are infused with beef flavor, beef is infused with onion flavor, and you reduce total cooking time/dishes to wash.
Yea I honestly can't believe what I'm reading. Like I'm a home cook not an influencer chef. Onions have a REALLY long cook time because of the moisture in them, beef doesn't.
Start with onions and let them steam off moisture then start to brown. THEN add beef and cook deglaze after.
This is the right answer. Onions and garlic first. Starting with those two will give the dish a rich flavour. Clearly, those answering beef first have no clue.
I do ground beef first, then use the relatively wet onions to deglaze the browned bits from the meat. You can even get away with tossing in a bit of liquid with the onions, if there is a lot of fond built up, though too much sends flavors up in steam rather than into your dish.
Cooking any meat first then adding the veggies adds so much flavor. Even for breakfast i cook my bacon first then add the eggs to the leftover grease, if there’s too much i usually just drain some from the pan into a cup to save for future use.
The Irish breakfast way is to cook the bacon and sausage first. Then add your eggs, beans, and whatever else you like such as soda bread into the pan afterwards. Usually do the soda bread last as it soaks up all the flavours at the end
Haha that’s the spirit. Also a favourite of my family’s was to put free tomatoes into the pan as well. You just cut them into junks but they fry up with the juices and add a nice freshness to the fry.
Anyway, enjoy whatever you make!
Build. Flavor. I know it’s corny sounding and is probably said often, but it’s nothing to overstate when cooking.
Not to sound like an ass because I’m just learning this over the past couple of years myself, but using fond is cooking 101.
The compounds are dissolved in liquid water, but that doesn’t mean that boiling out the water also boils out the compounds. For example what if the compounds have a higher boiling point than water, like oil?
Tired and cold, figuring out my own dinner and you humble and curious and going on another rabbit hole of cooking was the best culinary thing I’ve seen all day.
the fact you can smell the steam coming off and it smells like food means the steam is carrying flavour compounds.
Whether you're losing enough for it to make a difference is a different question but it is just factually true that any steam you send into the air will carry some flavor with it.
Smelling the food doesn’t mean the steam is responsible for the smell or that the smell is the flavor compounds. For example you can cook things that don’t steam at all and still smell them. Things smell for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with water evaporating.
>or that the smell is the flavor compounds
that is what it means. Smelling something means odor molecules hitting your odor receptors, and those molecules are the same ones that give food its taste.
Yeah you can release those odor molecules *without* boiling, but a boiling liquid releasing lots of steam usually smells stronger, and that's because there are odor molecules getting boiled off with the water.
Our noses operate better when it's damp. Could be the same concentration of molecules as before, you're just better at detecting them. Ever fart after in the shower and it smells rank? Same concept!
That doesn't mean it's in the steam - you cannot discern whether what you are smelling is just in the air or in the steam itself. We literally purify water by boiling it and collecting the steam.
You don’t “collect the steam”, you collect the water after it condenses again, leaving whatever molecules it carried when it evaporated still in suspension in the air.
Well I reckon I was in a state of cognitive dissonance where I was believing two things that were in conflict with each other. I believe reducing works like reducing works haha
In retrospect how did I think *distillation* works 😅
You’re not wrong. One rule of thumb, if you smell it, you’re losing it. Basically, any compound that your smelling is now in the air and not in the pan.
This becomes way nastier when you think about farts.
There's no way that's a thing. A major part of making my favorite Bolognese is letting the added water and wine boil out. It just thickens and stays super flavorful.
EVERYONE SAYING GROUND FIRST, it depends what flavor profile you are after. Browning unlike most people graduating from YouTube academy think, isn’t always the best option there are many great dishes where browning isn’t welcome at least in their traditional from for example Bolognese, Beef Rendang, Bulgogi, Sloppy Joe, good quality beef gently stewed without browning gives a very nice subtle flavor, but the trend especially American trend is to supercharge flavors which does not always means a better overall dish.
Pretty much every Italian ragù recipe starts with a soffrito, followed by meat (normally at a relatively low heat, the goal is not necessarily for a lot of maillard reaction). Nobody is talking about adding the minced meat after the liquid components have been added, it's purely a question of whether mirepoix/soffrito goes in before or after the meat.
Ok yeah, this just sounds like a semantics thing.
I think the comment above is equating browning with maillard reaction and fond, whereas you're using it to mean both that, and just cooking the meat through, but without any maillard reaction/forming any crust on the meat.
I’ve been doing this backwards 😳. I thought it was flavor the ground beef with onion. I’m making spaghetti tomorrow night and will try this and report back
Don't think of it as backwards! Cooking isn't just done one way, and you might just prefer it the way you were already doing. l do it protein first and then veggies, and personally l think it's better because l get to cook the veggies in the leftover oil that the protein usually gives off.
Any time I'm cooking meat that releases a decent amount of fat, it goes in first. Because I either want to cook subsequent items in that rendered fat or I want to remove it.
This is the correct way. It's nearly impossible to get the onions golden brown with a bunch of beef still in the pan.
If you want sweet the onions or keep them mostly raw then you can keep the meat in the pan.
This is far and away the "right" way to do it but man when it comes to something like chili there is no chance I'm going to bother removing the beef. Just tossing the onions into that bitch.
It depends on the goal. I often do beef first, remove a bit of liquid/fat, and then add in onions and keep cooking. This works if you let only some of the beef get browned (don't stir), and then are ok with the onions cooking down only lightly (until translucent) but aren't looking for much more.
This is completely wrong for me. Almost everyone under cooks onions to me. I cook the onions first then the beef. But I cook the onions closer to when the they are dryer. Or I cook twitter first and then remove and cook the other.
If they are translucent, they are not going to have any bite left. In some recipes, that's the goal, and in 95% of all ground beef recipes, I am going to be simmering the sauce at length, so they will further cook.
I don't like burnt onion much and I also don't feel like removing them for an unnecessary step in a sauce wherein there is absolutely no difference to the final result bc the onions are just supporting cast.
You need to BROWN the meat always, otherwise you’re basically steaming it. Should be actual colour on the beef. Onions release moisture, preventing proper maillard reaction.
Therefore, you have two options: do the onions first, remove and allow pan to dry, brown beef after and reintroduce onions; or brown beef and add onions after.
I’m 100% a smash burger devotee but I got a hankering for White Castle last week despite living approximately 300 miles from the nearest one, and ended up making them at home. Those onion-steamed sliders just hit different.
This Reddit (and internet cooking culture in general) seems to have a hard time with the idea that sometimes techniques are contextually appropriate rather than universally. People really latch onto their “THIS IS HOW IT’S DONE” mentality for dear life.
No you don't. After you layer heaps of flavours from aromats, sauces and seasoning that small amount of mallard will go unnoticed. Most of the beef flavour is coming from the beef. Not the maillard. Plenty of dishes don't bother with browning (and usually Asian). Pho , dumplings, hot pot, pretty much every curry out there jist dump the raw meat in the sauce. It's a very western opinion that you HAVE to brown the meat first. Obviously with meat forward dishes it matters like steak. Also I'll argue when people are talking about browning their mince I can whole heartedly guarantee they aren't. Most people dump too much mince in thr pot, overcrowding it. Mince has a vast amount of surface area and browning one side of the mince before it becomes saturated in the liquid it drops quite honestly is pointless.
If you can be patient enough to brown the meat on smaller batches, go for it but I see far greater value sweating the onions and garlic first and just throw in mince. Much more inpactful results from sauteed onions over some half assed 'browned' mince
You don’t need to remove the onions. Start with them and then turn the heat up and add your beef. The onions will just get more caramelized which is never a bad thing imo.
You realize theirs a shit ton more water in the ground beef than in the onions? Having onions in the ground beef will in no way prevent caramelization. What a ridiculous proposition.
How does this comment get so many upvotes on a cooking sub.
You’re wrong- onions are 90% water and beef is 70% water. Also, caramelization is a completely different thing than the Maillard reaction. How embarrassing for you, you’re wrong on both points. What a ridiculous proposition you’re attempting to make.
Not only are you adding more moisture to the pan, but you’re lowering the surface temperature of the pan, you’re also reducing the pan contact with the beef itself. Those are three factors reducing the potential of browning the beef.
>You’re wrong- onions are 90% water and beef is 70% water.
The onions have already been sweated, there's most certainly more water in the beef than in the onions which all needs to be cooked out regardless.
>Also, caramelization is a completely different thing than the Maillard reaction.
You're not caramelizing onions when you brown them. It's just a word we use to describe the process. https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397 The process of browning is almost all caused by maillard for onion and ground beef. It just sounds weird to say maillard the onions and beef vs caramelize.
>Not only are you adding more moisture to the pan
An inconsequential amount.
>but you’re lowering the surface temperature of the pan
Adjust the heat. Lol. The onions are already the hottest thing in the pan by far when you add the beef.
>you’re also reducing the pan contact with the beef itself.
The maillard browning in the pan is not affected.
This only happens if you overcrowd your pan. Do less onions and less beef and you can cook all together, without missing the browning.
Beef first and then onions is heresy. Onions are there to get the flavor to the beef.
No you absolutely don't lol. It might make things taste a tiny but better, especially when you're not using to many spices or making something stew-like, but most of the flavour is from the meat itself, not the browned parts
Onions first because in my experience my family likes them lightly carmelized
Push the onions to the outer edges
Then the beef which I smoosh into a thin disk, poke holes for steam with my spoon
Very well browned, very cooked onions, saves on dishes too because I don’t have to remove anything to another plate
I'm gonna get down votes for this as this sub firmly believes in beef first but I cook the onions about halfway to where I want them and drop the beef in the skillet. They still get plenty of flavor and honestly you end up with this onion/fat mix that is great to reduce for flavor.
Brown the beef first. The key is not to crowd the pot. Do it in batches based on how much you have. You don’t want to steam the beef. Then drain the fat and set aside. Then onions. Then deglaze. Then return the beef to the pot.
I’m learning…
So brown the beef, remove the beef from pan and strain the fat into its own container.
Then add the onions to the (relatively dry) pan. And let it cook some or do you then
Add the fat back to deglaze with the onions and let it cook some/brown some?? Or do you add a water/stock to deglaze? Or do you take the onions off the pan too and then deglaze? (I’ve never heard of deglaze til now and did a quick google)
Then add the beef and finish cooking?
I can google this tomorrow, it’s late lol I just learned deglaze and fond and never ever thought of the stuff in pan as flavor! So now I’m eager to try it out.
Hey yeah you can deglaze with a lot of thing but essentially it has to evaporate when it hits the pan. Fat won't, so you can't use it to deglaze. Wet onions, tomatoes, and other veggies can do it, but water/stock is good and alcohol (wine/beer/etc.) is best because it evaporates so vigorously.
You hit the pan with the deglazing liquid and then scrape everything up with a heavy wooden spoon.
And to fully answer your question, I do:
1) brown the beef in the dry pan
2) pull out the beef with a slotted spoon and set aside
3) pour out some fat if there's tons, but leave enough to cook the onions
4) add the onion and scrape up the fond. add some deglazing liquid if the onions aren't wet enough, and salt
5) once onions/veggies have cooked down, put the beef back in and scrape up more fond. be sparing with your deglazing liquid because you want to have enough to deglaze but not so much as to stop the browning
Potentially unpopular opinion...
Do the onions first, then pull them.
Then brown the beef (at a higher temp).
And then, put everything together just before you assemble whatever it is you're making.
No surprises that way, and the moisture from the onions doesn't cause the ground beef to steam, rather than actually cook and get some color.
Chef Jean-Pierre is right, 'Onyo' is *always* first, unless you're using bacon. Words of wisdom that I sometimes question, but still follow and have yet to have a recipe implode on me.
I do both at the same time. The beef releases its water which starts the onions softening, then when it evaporates the beef has rendered its fat and I let both brown. Yum yum.
Beef first, being careful to manage the heat so the fond is brown and delicious, instead of scorched. Onions in the fond (may need to add a little extra fat, but don't if you don't have to) then deglaze.
Are you sauteing the onions for like two minutes? Lol.
Onions first always so they both flavor and get flavored. You can also de-glaze at the perfect moment and not have to wait for the onions to pick it up / burn.
I like onions first and then cooking the beef in the onion juices.
I want the beef to absorb the onion and garlic flavor, not the other way around. Not a fan of the beef in my pasta sauce being crispy.
Fry beef first until well browned and crispy.
Don't add salt at this point - it will just draw out moisture and make the searing take longer.
Remove beef from pan, place in bowl, and salt.
Add onions and some liquid if needed to deglaze the fond from the pan, continue to fry the onions in the beef fat, adding more oil if needed.
You can then add the beef back into the pan with the onions.
Pat dry the mince, brown the mince, season the mince. Remove the mince, drain fat (at least a little) or keep some depending on how you like it. Add the onions after - they will release some liquid which removes the fond from the pan. If there is too much fond you can deglaze whilst the mince is till in the pan. After all that, add the mince back in
Beef first every time.
The browning is called the Maillard reaction and you get bits stuck to the bottom of the pan, that’s called the fond (I think?) and there is a ton of flavour there!
Fry off the beef, remove it with a slotted spoon, then add the onions to soften and sweat and caramelise a little and then optionally add a little wine or something to deglaze the pan and pick up all the flavour.
Man some of y'all would hate to watch me make my spicy beef mince lol.
Diced onions first then push them to the side. Chuck in 500g beef mince, break it up a bit and let it steam itself and brown some bits, can of mixed beans (kidney, black, pinto) undrained, spice mix and 3 chopped birdseye chilis, stir it all up. Reduce until the mix is mostly "dry". 4-5 days of lunches or dinners for me done.
Point I'm trying to make is, onions first.
I am an onions first guy myself. I like them very well cooked. Even a hint of fresh onion is nasty to me, but I do love the flavor cooked ones give food.
I like to go onions first but often put them in second because I forget them at the start. Ground beef is very forgiving and you can cook it for a little or a lot and it still comes out fine. Same goes for onions really.
Depends how small the onions are cut and how you want them cooked. I like to do my onions on a low heat and do the meat separately at a higher one, personally.
Now you're making me think. How about adding some diced bell peppers (red/orange/yellow) with the onions and sauté both. Add back the beef, but also add corn kernels (fresh or frozen) and mix and heat. Serve with rice. Oh, and season it with your favorites (salt, pepper, garlic powder or garlic sautéed with the onions/peppers, etc).
Possibly controversial, but hear me out…
**Two separate pans.**
I do the onions in the pan the final dish will simmer in, sauté 10 mins as usual.
The mince I do in my biggest frying pan - so I can get more heat under it & it will brown better, rather than go a limp grey.
They both then take about the same time. The frying pan then gets deglazed & added to the onions & meat.
Both. Heat the oil. Sauté half of the onions and move them to the side of the pan. Add in beef and season it. Halfway through, toss in the remaining onions.
It depends on what you want and how hard you want to brown your meat and if you want your onions to be sweet and browned too. If you want browned meat and soft onions, then onions last. If you want just a little bit of fond and to keep the beef more juicy/bouncy then onions first.
It's all in what you are looking for: if you prefer more or less meat.
If you want it more well done, then the meat would go first, but if you're a lesser cook, then the onion first would be a good idea.
You add a pinch of salt to help it sweat and release its water.
Then it depends on whether you want it more "poached" (poached in Spanish), caramelized, or simply transparent.
It depends a lot on the dish you are preparing.
There is not a single option, nor one better than the other by default.
I do the onions first to flavor the oil, then remove them when they are almost cooked to the point I want, and do the beef in the flavored oil, then add the onions back in to all finish cooking together at the appropriate point.
I generally do the ground beef first a day reserve it in a bowl, then drain any excess fat before adding the onion, followed by any garlic towards the end, then add the beef back.
Depends if you want to drain off the fat or not . if you do, starting with onion first you will lose some onion flavor . If you don't drain the fat then start with onion first .
Mash the beef onto a sheet tray in a thin layer, throw it under the broiler for a few minutes. Cooks at the same time as the onions, gets a ton of browning, scrape up fond with a bit of water and dump in with the onions (crumble the meat with hands). You get the best of both worlds.
Ground beef first, onions never.
If you must use onions, but them in long before the beef, so that they can cook down to almost nothing, and caramelize nicely, so that they're somewhat edible.
Im an onions first always girl but reading these comments makes me second guess that.
The rich meaty flavor comes from the mailliard reaction from the beef searing. Put the mince in a hot pan with some oil and smoosh it down to get as much contact with the pan as possible. Then just leav it for a few minutes to get something resembling a steak crust on one side of the mince. Can try and flip it then before eventually breaking it up.
Keep going I'm close... No but seriously. So you try and flip it, then break it up, cook the mince all the way through, and then remove it and cook the onions? Then add the mince back in at the end for a moment to mix up and serve? If including veg, when would you add those?
I'm gonna deglaze it, you wanna help me? But in all seriousness, I would remove it and cook the onions, then add the mince back in for a moment like you mentioned. If including veg, I would say it depends what kind. If it's peppers, they're probably going in with the onions. If it's something more starchy or dense I might want to let them cook longer, so I might do them separately to cook them through without burning the onions.
I’d deglaze the fuck out of that pan
Take some red wine, about a quarter cup, and a big wooden spoon…
Oh my god i just saw this vid recently and im so obsessed with it, funniest thing in the world
> big wooden spoon That does it.
I got a big wooden spoon right here. It’s pretty hard
That's pretty much it. Most cooking seems to be controlling heat transfer rate/exposure length and moisture to get the chemical reactions you want. Only real practical way to do that is via the order you put them in the pan. I generally sear whatever meat I'm using first, then remove it and saute the aromatics in an onion, garlic, herb stems, mushrooms, carrot, celery kind of order (as others have noted this can kind of deglaze the pan and absorb all the delicious brown bits (fond) that are stuck to it. This is also a good opportunity to put any spices or curry paste like ingredients (they're usually just smooshed armoatics and spices) as the other stuff in the pan can prevent it from burning. Any other vegetables that I want cooked will go in with whatever cooking liquid I'm using. Stuff like leafy herbs, cherry tomatoes, sometimes olives will just get stirred in at the end (whatever I want to be a concentrated feature flavor, or to hold structural integrity).
Nah. Too much fussing. Saute the onions, garlic, add the meat. Cook it and then add peppers, tomatoes, etc.
You had me at steak crust. 😋
The rich meaty flavor form GROUND BEEF comes from it being ground beef. You are wasting a lot of time on your ground beef dishes if you are focusing on the "malliard reaction" not much to gain there. Instead, you should be infusing ground meats with aromatics. Which means to do Aromatics first, flavor the cooking fat then cook the meat! The smell will tell you. The Glorious smell. You are not flavoring onions, you are using onions to flavor the meat.
You should definitely give it a try the other way. Cooking the onions in the beef fat and fond gives them, and your dish, a much better flavor.
Ugh. It just makes the onions soggy and tasteless, rather than sauted.
You're using beef tallow, which has more flavor than any vegetable cooking oil, and picking up flavor from the fond (aka browned bits on the bottom of the pan) as the onions lose moisture. Where does all that flavor go to make the onions "tasteless"?
I think the onion can flavour gets more “muddled” or “subdued” if you don’t get the ratio right. Too much beef fat and it ends up tasting like beef with a hint of *something* instead of a complex flavour medley. Though I don’t cook with beef much anymore, I’m also onions first.
Take the beef out in between? Drain the liquid, return the fat, add the onions?
You need to take the beef out while you cook the onions (or push it to the side and move that part off the heat)
I don’t notice too much of a difference either way. I do tend to start with onions because I keep them cooking with the beef and like them more browned.
Gotta go onion first, otherwise they’ll be undercooked (or beef way overcooked)
YOu remove the beef once it's cooked and add it back when the onions are done.
That just sounds like an extra dish to wash.
A minute of your time for better flavor? Nahh
It’s not better flavor though though. There is no good explanation for this. Onions first, beef once they’re close to done, deglaze with water or whatever liquid once the beef is done. Onions are infused with beef flavor, beef is infused with onion flavor, and you reduce total cooking time/dishes to wash.
Yea I honestly can't believe what I'm reading. Like I'm a home cook not an influencer chef. Onions have a REALLY long cook time because of the moisture in them, beef doesn't. Start with onions and let them steam off moisture then start to brown. THEN add beef and cook deglaze after.
You want your beef tasting like beef, not like onions. You already have onions on there, no need for the meat to taste like it too
Nope. That is too fussy. Onions, garlic, then meat.
If you happen to have a couple of days to cook a dish then sure
How are you able to put beef on a plate and then back in the pan in just a couple of days? That’s usually a week long process for me.
No, thank you.
Same I’m gonna try the other way next time
This is the right answer. Onions and garlic first. Starting with those two will give the dish a rich flavour. Clearly, those answering beef first have no clue.
I do ground beef first, then use the relatively wet onions to deglaze the browned bits from the meat. You can even get away with tossing in a bit of liquid with the onions, if there is a lot of fond built up, though too much sends flavors up in steam rather than into your dish.
This. Flavor those onions with the ground beef fond.
Cooking any meat first then adding the veggies adds so much flavor. Even for breakfast i cook my bacon first then add the eggs to the leftover grease, if there’s too much i usually just drain some from the pan into a cup to save for future use.
The Irish breakfast way is to cook the bacon and sausage first. Then add your eggs, beans, and whatever else you like such as soda bread into the pan afterwards. Usually do the soda bread last as it soaks up all the flavours at the end
Okay…Guess I’m making soda bread this morning, because that all sounds delightful!
Haha that’s the spirit. Also a favourite of my family’s was to put free tomatoes into the pan as well. You just cut them into junks but they fry up with the juices and add a nice freshness to the fry. Anyway, enjoy whatever you make!
Thank you! Tomatoes too then! I just got some beauties the other day…Should I do a few mushrooms as well, or would that be overkill?
Ohh no no. I’m not into mushrooms, but my father also loves them in his fry. Go for it! Irish or English full breakfasts are never light.
I do the same thing with shredded potatoes for hash browns. My kids won't eat them any other way.
Fried potatoes in bacon fat!!!!!
Thank you very much!!
Build. Flavor. I know it’s corny sounding and is probably said often, but it’s nothing to overstate when cooking. Not to sound like an ass because I’m just learning this over the past couple of years myself, but using fond is cooking 101.
I've never heard of sending fond up as steam. Generally my concern with "too much" fond is that it will burn before my protein is done cooking.
My understanding is that steam is just water so the only thing that’s lost is water.
~~Water carries water-soluble flavour compounds.~~ disregard, I have clinical fuckbrain
The compounds are dissolved in liquid water, but that doesn’t mean that boiling out the water also boils out the compounds. For example what if the compounds have a higher boiling point than water, like oil?
Yeah actually this could totally just be folksy wisdom I'm recycling I'm gonna go find something to read about it.
Tired and cold, figuring out my own dinner and you humble and curious and going on another rabbit hole of cooking was the best culinary thing I’ve seen all day.
See: steam distillation They actually use steam to remove essential oils (flavor and smell) from plants
the fact you can smell the steam coming off and it smells like food means the steam is carrying flavour compounds. Whether you're losing enough for it to make a difference is a different question but it is just factually true that any steam you send into the air will carry some flavor with it.
Smelling the food doesn’t mean the steam is responsible for the smell or that the smell is the flavor compounds. For example you can cook things that don’t steam at all and still smell them. Things smell for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with water evaporating.
>or that the smell is the flavor compounds that is what it means. Smelling something means odor molecules hitting your odor receptors, and those molecules are the same ones that give food its taste. Yeah you can release those odor molecules *without* boiling, but a boiling liquid releasing lots of steam usually smells stronger, and that's because there are odor molecules getting boiled off with the water.
Our noses operate better when it's damp. Could be the same concentration of molecules as before, you're just better at detecting them. Ever fart after in the shower and it smells rank? Same concept!
That doesn't mean it's in the steam - you cannot discern whether what you are smelling is just in the air or in the steam itself. We literally purify water by boiling it and collecting the steam.
You don’t “collect the steam”, you collect the water after it condenses again, leaving whatever molecules it carried when it evaporated still in suspension in the air.
How do you think reducing works?
Look, I crossed it out okay 😂
True! I was just curious about your way of thinking - how *did* you think reducing worked?
Well I reckon I was in a state of cognitive dissonance where I was believing two things that were in conflict with each other. I believe reducing works like reducing works haha In retrospect how did I think *distillation* works 😅
I’m sorry to also tell you that’s not what cognitive dissonance is
You’re not wrong. One rule of thumb, if you smell it, you’re losing it. Basically, any compound that your smelling is now in the air and not in the pan. This becomes way nastier when you think about farts.
There's no way that's a thing. A major part of making my favorite Bolognese is letting the added water and wine boil out. It just thickens and stays super flavorful.
that made total sense until the end - flavour compounds don’t just evaporate in steam if you have too much liquid in the pan
yeah thats literally how stocks and reductions are made to concentrate flavor. losing flavor to steam is nonsense
Deglaze tf out of that pan
Randy!
Awww f.ck yeah!
ITS CLASSY, SHARON!
I use white vinegar to deglaze the pan. Adds a nice depth of flavor that enhances the fatty and salty beef.
I don’t think you can lose any appreciable amount of flavor to steam. That would be an interesting experiment
This is the method used in cooking dishes like Coq au Vin or other dishes that create and reduce multiple sets of fond.
EVERYONE SAYING GROUND FIRST, it depends what flavor profile you are after. Browning unlike most people graduating from YouTube academy think, isn’t always the best option there are many great dishes where browning isn’t welcome at least in their traditional from for example Bolognese, Beef Rendang, Bulgogi, Sloppy Joe, good quality beef gently stewed without browning gives a very nice subtle flavor, but the trend especially American trend is to supercharge flavors which does not always means a better overall dish.
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Pretty much every Italian ragù recipe starts with a soffrito, followed by meat (normally at a relatively low heat, the goal is not necessarily for a lot of maillard reaction). Nobody is talking about adding the minced meat after the liquid components have been added, it's purely a question of whether mirepoix/soffrito goes in before or after the meat.
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Ok yeah, this just sounds like a semantics thing. I think the comment above is equating browning with maillard reaction and fond, whereas you're using it to mean both that, and just cooking the meat through, but without any maillard reaction/forming any crust on the meat.
No one is talking about tomato here, lol.
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I’ve been doing this backwards 😳. I thought it was flavor the ground beef with onion. I’m making spaghetti tomorrow night and will try this and report back
Don't think of it as backwards! Cooking isn't just done one way, and you might just prefer it the way you were already doing. l do it protein first and then veggies, and personally l think it's better because l get to cook the veggies in the leftover oil that the protein usually gives off.
It depends how well done you want your onions.
Flavours up in steam? Does anything else other than water actually evaporate? I don’t think so
This is the answer
Ground beef first, remove, cook onions in beef fat.
Any time I'm cooking meat that releases a decent amount of fat, it goes in first. Because I either want to cook subsequent items in that rendered fat or I want to remove it.
This is the correct way. It's nearly impossible to get the onions golden brown with a bunch of beef still in the pan. If you want sweet the onions or keep them mostly raw then you can keep the meat in the pan.
This is far and away the "right" way to do it but man when it comes to something like chili there is no chance I'm going to bother removing the beef. Just tossing the onions into that bitch.
This is the right way. People with their "one pot" obsession lol You can cook and set aside guys.
You're still cooking the onions in the beef fat if you cook them with the beef...
I’m not sure the beef would be improved by adding an extra 10 minutes of cooking over medium-high heat.
The speed at which you cook the beef isn't really all that important and you're supposed to sweat the onions before you add the beef.
this is the way
So spot on! I used to be a chef.
It depends on the goal. I often do beef first, remove a bit of liquid/fat, and then add in onions and keep cooking. This works if you let only some of the beef get browned (don't stir), and then are ok with the onions cooking down only lightly (until translucent) but aren't looking for much more.
This is completely wrong for me. Almost everyone under cooks onions to me. I cook the onions first then the beef. But I cook the onions closer to when the they are dryer. Or I cook twitter first and then remove and cook the other.
Does twitter become X after cooking?
lol was supposed to be either.
This. Vast majority of people have no idea what sauted actually means and looks like, and instead stop early on when the onions are still hard. Smh.
I think you might confusing sauteed and caramelized. You can saute onions in just a few minutes. Caramelizing takes much, much longer.
You need better friends, I guess. I literally only know one person who does that.
In my experience it’s more the older generations that undercook the onions.
If they are translucent, they are not going to have any bite left. In some recipes, that's the goal, and in 95% of all ground beef recipes, I am going to be simmering the sauce at length, so they will further cook. I don't like burnt onion much and I also don't feel like removing them for an unnecessary step in a sauce wherein there is absolutely no difference to the final result bc the onions are just supporting cast.
You need to BROWN the meat always, otherwise you’re basically steaming it. Should be actual colour on the beef. Onions release moisture, preventing proper maillard reaction. Therefore, you have two options: do the onions first, remove and allow pan to dry, brown beef after and reintroduce onions; or brown beef and add onions after.
> You need to BROWN the meat always Not necessarily. You can steam a burger by putting it on a mound of onions which is pretty popular
Yeah have these jokers never heard of steamed hams?
AURORA BOREALIS?!? At this time of day, at this time of year, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your kitchen?
You call hamburgers 'steamed hams'?
It's more of an Albany expression
Not as good though. You are losing depth of flavor.
I mean it’s totally preference. I generally like a crust on my burger but i def like the occasional white castle burger
I’m 100% a smash burger devotee but I got a hankering for White Castle last week despite living approximately 300 miles from the nearest one, and ended up making them at home. Those onion-steamed sliders just hit different. This Reddit (and internet cooking culture in general) seems to have a hard time with the idea that sometimes techniques are contextually appropriate rather than universally. People really latch onto their “THIS IS HOW IT’S DONE” mentality for dear life.
Crispy brown meat has its place but when you don’t brown it a lot more of the natural beef flavor comes through.
No you don't. After you layer heaps of flavours from aromats, sauces and seasoning that small amount of mallard will go unnoticed. Most of the beef flavour is coming from the beef. Not the maillard. Plenty of dishes don't bother with browning (and usually Asian). Pho , dumplings, hot pot, pretty much every curry out there jist dump the raw meat in the sauce. It's a very western opinion that you HAVE to brown the meat first. Obviously with meat forward dishes it matters like steak. Also I'll argue when people are talking about browning their mince I can whole heartedly guarantee they aren't. Most people dump too much mince in thr pot, overcrowding it. Mince has a vast amount of surface area and browning one side of the mince before it becomes saturated in the liquid it drops quite honestly is pointless. If you can be patient enough to brown the meat on smaller batches, go for it but I see far greater value sweating the onions and garlic first and just throw in mince. Much more inpactful results from sauteed onions over some half assed 'browned' mince
You don’t need to remove the onions. Start with them and then turn the heat up and add your beef. The onions will just get more caramelized which is never a bad thing imo.
You realize theirs a shit ton more water in the ground beef than in the onions? Having onions in the ground beef will in no way prevent caramelization. What a ridiculous proposition. How does this comment get so many upvotes on a cooking sub.
You’re wrong- onions are 90% water and beef is 70% water. Also, caramelization is a completely different thing than the Maillard reaction. How embarrassing for you, you’re wrong on both points. What a ridiculous proposition you’re attempting to make. Not only are you adding more moisture to the pan, but you’re lowering the surface temperature of the pan, you’re also reducing the pan contact with the beef itself. Those are three factors reducing the potential of browning the beef.
>You’re wrong- onions are 90% water and beef is 70% water. The onions have already been sweated, there's most certainly more water in the beef than in the onions which all needs to be cooked out regardless. >Also, caramelization is a completely different thing than the Maillard reaction. You're not caramelizing onions when you brown them. It's just a word we use to describe the process. https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397 The process of browning is almost all caused by maillard for onion and ground beef. It just sounds weird to say maillard the onions and beef vs caramelize. >Not only are you adding more moisture to the pan An inconsequential amount. >but you’re lowering the surface temperature of the pan Adjust the heat. Lol. The onions are already the hottest thing in the pan by far when you add the beef. >you’re also reducing the pan contact with the beef itself. The maillard browning in the pan is not affected.
This only happens if you overcrowd your pan. Do less onions and less beef and you can cook all together, without missing the browning. Beef first and then onions is heresy. Onions are there to get the flavor to the beef.
This.
No you absolutely don't lol. It might make things taste a tiny but better, especially when you're not using to many spices or making something stew-like, but most of the flavour is from the meat itself, not the browned parts
This is such a dumb take.
It's more of a fact, but go on. Expand
I refuse to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
Ground onions?
Ground onions are great in meatloaves and meatballs.
I grind mine when making falafel, its the only liquid in the dish.
This topic seems pretty split down the middle…way to cause chaos op
Onions first because in my experience my family likes them lightly carmelized Push the onions to the outer edges Then the beef which I smoosh into a thin disk, poke holes for steam with my spoon Very well browned, very cooked onions, saves on dishes too because I don’t have to remove anything to another plate
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I'm gonna get down votes for this as this sub firmly believes in beef first but I cook the onions about halfway to where I want them and drop the beef in the skillet. They still get plenty of flavor and honestly you end up with this onion/fat mix that is great to reduce for flavor.
Brown the beef first. The key is not to crowd the pot. Do it in batches based on how much you have. You don’t want to steam the beef. Then drain the fat and set aside. Then onions. Then deglaze. Then return the beef to the pot.
I’m learning… So brown the beef, remove the beef from pan and strain the fat into its own container. Then add the onions to the (relatively dry) pan. And let it cook some or do you then Add the fat back to deglaze with the onions and let it cook some/brown some?? Or do you add a water/stock to deglaze? Or do you take the onions off the pan too and then deglaze? (I’ve never heard of deglaze til now and did a quick google) Then add the beef and finish cooking? I can google this tomorrow, it’s late lol I just learned deglaze and fond and never ever thought of the stuff in pan as flavor! So now I’m eager to try it out.
I, too, would like an answer to this
Hey yeah you can deglaze with a lot of thing but essentially it has to evaporate when it hits the pan. Fat won't, so you can't use it to deglaze. Wet onions, tomatoes, and other veggies can do it, but water/stock is good and alcohol (wine/beer/etc.) is best because it evaporates so vigorously. You hit the pan with the deglazing liquid and then scrape everything up with a heavy wooden spoon. And to fully answer your question, I do: 1) brown the beef in the dry pan 2) pull out the beef with a slotted spoon and set aside 3) pour out some fat if there's tons, but leave enough to cook the onions 4) add the onion and scrape up the fond. add some deglazing liquid if the onions aren't wet enough, and salt 5) once onions/veggies have cooked down, put the beef back in and scrape up more fond. be sparing with your deglazing liquid because you want to have enough to deglaze but not so much as to stop the browning
Potentially unpopular opinion... Do the onions first, then pull them. Then brown the beef (at a higher temp). And then, put everything together just before you assemble whatever it is you're making. No surprises that way, and the moisture from the onions doesn't cause the ground beef to steam, rather than actually cook and get some color. Chef Jean-Pierre is right, 'Onyo' is *always* first, unless you're using bacon. Words of wisdom that I sometimes question, but still follow and have yet to have a recipe implode on me.
Thank you. I’ve been doing it the way you describe for years, and the “beef first” replies above had me doubting myself.
Chef Jean Pierre says “Always onions number first!” [Amazing](https://youtu.be/R2ccbO-oR5Q?si=QQDA0603Gz-IpipN)
ONYO ALWAYS NUMBER FIRST! I love this man.
I do both at the same time. The beef releases its water which starts the onions softening, then when it evaporates the beef has rendered its fat and I let both brown. Yum yum.
Great question! I go with onions first for about 2 minutes before adding the ground beef
Beef first, being careful to manage the heat so the fond is brown and delicious, instead of scorched. Onions in the fond (may need to add a little extra fat, but don't if you don't have to) then deglaze.
Are you sauteing the onions for like two minutes? Lol. Onions first always so they both flavor and get flavored. You can also de-glaze at the perfect moment and not have to wait for the onions to pick it up / burn.
always onions first need to caramelize then beef.
My process as well. ground beef cooks fast, getting a good caramelization on the onions takes time.
I agree, that's how Gordon Ramsey does it!
I like onions first and then cooking the beef in the onion juices. I want the beef to absorb the onion and garlic flavor, not the other way around. Not a fan of the beef in my pasta sauce being crispy.
Golden rule for everything. Onions first, unless there’s bacon
Fry beef first until well browned and crispy. Don't add salt at this point - it will just draw out moisture and make the searing take longer. Remove beef from pan, place in bowl, and salt. Add onions and some liquid if needed to deglaze the fond from the pan, continue to fry the onions in the beef fat, adding more oil if needed. You can then add the beef back into the pan with the onions.
Pat dry the mince, brown the mince, season the mince. Remove the mince, drain fat (at least a little) or keep some depending on how you like it. Add the onions after - they will release some liquid which removes the fond from the pan. If there is too much fond you can deglaze whilst the mince is till in the pan. After all that, add the mince back in
Ground beef, saute, remove and set aside Use same pan to brown onions. When that’s done, add meat.
Onions take a long time to cook right, so they are always in the pan before the ground beef when I cook.
Usually meat first but sometimes like in bolognese mire poix first.
Onions always first. However you say you have ground onions, no idea what that is, but it sounds like a case of beef first.
I'm lazy, I do both at the same time. Who cares?
Then how do you brown them?
You cook them until the moisture evaporates and then they brown in the fat from the beef and any added fat
It’s amazing how people don’t understand you can get that browning like this.
They aren’t.
Beef first every time. The browning is called the Maillard reaction and you get bits stuck to the bottom of the pan, that’s called the fond (I think?) and there is a ton of flavour there! Fry off the beef, remove it with a slotted spoon, then add the onions to soften and sweat and caramelise a little and then optionally add a little wine or something to deglaze the pan and pick up all the flavour.
I do the onions first, remove them, do ground beef, reintroduce onions.
This is how I do it. Onions won’t get cooked without the beef either steamed or getting way overcooked
No
Onions first, remove and deglaze, beef, combine.
Depends on what I'm doing with the onion, but I generally start onion first.
Man some of y'all would hate to watch me make my spicy beef mince lol. Diced onions first then push them to the side. Chuck in 500g beef mince, break it up a bit and let it steam itself and brown some bits, can of mixed beans (kidney, black, pinto) undrained, spice mix and 3 chopped birdseye chilis, stir it all up. Reduce until the mix is mostly "dry". 4-5 days of lunches or dinners for me done. Point I'm trying to make is, onions first.
I am an onions first guy myself. I like them very well cooked. Even a hint of fresh onion is nasty to me, but I do love the flavor cooked ones give food.
I like to go onions first but often put them in second because I forget them at the start. Ground beef is very forgiving and you can cook it for a little or a lot and it still comes out fine. Same goes for onions really.
Depends on what you're making
Beef first, then out of the pan, onions in and softened, then beef back in.
Always Onions first....they need to soften up before the meat goes in.
I'd definitely fry the onions first. Then, when you add the ground beef, it will absorb some of the onion flavour.
Onions first
Beef before onions
Depends how small the onions are cut and how you want them cooked. I like to do my onions on a low heat and do the meat separately at a higher one, personally.
Beef first, remove beef, cook onions in beefy pan, and back beef and mix and heat! Yum!!
Now you're making me think. How about adding some diced bell peppers (red/orange/yellow) with the onions and sauté both. Add back the beef, but also add corn kernels (fresh or frozen) and mix and heat. Serve with rice. Oh, and season it with your favorites (salt, pepper, garlic powder or garlic sautéed with the onions/peppers, etc).
I’ve done both. I do prefer onions after ground beef.
Possibly controversial, but hear me out… **Two separate pans.** I do the onions in the pan the final dish will simmer in, sauté 10 mins as usual. The mince I do in my biggest frying pan - so I can get more heat under it & it will brown better, rather than go a limp grey. They both then take about the same time. The frying pan then gets deglazed & added to the onions & meat.
depends if i want a crunchy onion (after) or a soft one (before). i generally want soft ones. the meat will still brown with onions in the pan lol
Ground onions would probably burn pretty fast. Better to do them last on a lower heat.
Both. Heat the oil. Sauté half of the onions and move them to the side of the pan. Add in beef and season it. Halfway through, toss in the remaining onions.
I Sauté onions in butter first and build some juice the. Mix in hamburger.
It depends on what you want and how hard you want to brown your meat and if you want your onions to be sweet and browned too. If you want browned meat and soft onions, then onions last. If you want just a little bit of fond and to keep the beef more juicy/bouncy then onions first.
I do mine at the same time because I like my onions slightly undercooked.
It's all in what you are looking for: if you prefer more or less meat. If you want it more well done, then the meat would go first, but if you're a lesser cook, then the onion first would be a good idea. You add a pinch of salt to help it sweat and release its water. Then it depends on whether you want it more "poached" (poached in Spanish), caramelized, or simply transparent. It depends a lot on the dish you are preparing. There is not a single option, nor one better than the other by default.
Rereading the translation of my message, it is possible that what I said is not very well understood. Sorry :-(
I do the onions first to flavor the oil, then remove them when they are almost cooked to the point I want, and do the beef in the flavored oil, then add the onions back in to all finish cooking together at the appropriate point.
beef first unless you want to steam the beef
There’s a reason why every professional chef browns the meat first. Actually a lot of reasons.
Ground beef first, drain fat, add onions. Then garlic when you have a minute or two left of cooking (or adding sauce, stock, etc).
I generally do the ground beef first a day reserve it in a bowl, then drain any excess fat before adding the onion, followed by any garlic towards the end, then add the beef back.
Depends if you want to drain off the fat or not . if you do, starting with onion first you will lose some onion flavor . If you don't drain the fat then start with onion first .
Mash the beef onto a sheet tray in a thin layer, throw it under the broiler for a few minutes. Cooks at the same time as the onions, gets a ton of browning, scrape up fond with a bit of water and dump in with the onions (crumble the meat with hands). You get the best of both worlds.
Ground beef first, onions never. If you must use onions, but them in long before the beef, so that they can cook down to almost nothing, and caramelize nicely, so that they're somewhat edible.