I slightly disagree with the word "death" there in the ideal, simply "I accept that others will protect me" as "Death" feels a bit too much. As you say all the other ideals are about the windrunner protecting *others.* The fourth ideal was even about accepting there are times you can't protect everyone. But for someone so bent on protecting others it's really hard to accept that you also need to be protected.
I've got a friend who I think would be a windrunner, he'd give you the shirt off his back during winter without complaint if you needed it. So yeah him accepting that he sometimes needs help without helping the person in return would be a big thing for him.
There was a thread about this yesterday and I arrived in a similar camp. I think it's likely the 5th ideal is accepting others protecting you, or accepting that others can protect themselves (companion to the second ideal).
These make more sense to me than the suggestions I've seen that the 5th ideal is going to be in the vein of there are some people you shouldn't protect. That doesn't seem like a good trajectory for that character arc.
I interpret that those theories are focused on Moash, and how Kaladin fifth Oath will help him overcome his conflicts to be able to face him. That's another possibility that I see, but still.
I feel like that's already covered by the 4th ideal. That Kal accepts he cannot protect Moash because Moash does not want to be protected and fights against it.
It also fits with the end of Oathbringer where Kaladin is struggling to say the Fourth Ideal because he couldn’t go back and save Dalinar. Syl comforts him by saying “Maybe you don’t have to save anyone, Kaladin.” However, she does not explain this by having Kaladin accept that sometimes there are those he cannot protect. Instead, she says “Maybe it’s time for someone to save you.” That statement is her saying that Kaladin is also worthy of being protected, and that there are moments where someone else must protect him without immediate reciprocity. Syl knows what the Fifth Ideal is (most likely, at least) and is hinting/foreshadowing at what it is to Kal.
My guess pre-Oathbringer was:
I will protect myself, so I can protect others.
But that would probably be too close to Teft's version of the third ideal. I do like your version, though. It also captures the need to be protected yourself and inverts the "protecting others" even better than my idea.
I think we'll see the "final bridge run" in book 5. Where bridge 4 will protect kaladin. And he will swear his fifth to let them protect him.
Evidence for this is the thematic bridge runs in the books.
Humans pushing into a place where they are outnumbered and out gunned but somehow proving that through training and working together they can accomplish impossible things.
Teofil's push for the crystal pillar being the "bridge run" of book 4.
Something like that with Kaladin leading his men to certain doom. But knowing they must to protect Roshar.
Yeah I just meant thematically it will be a "bridge run" not literally running their bridge like in book 1. Maybe flying the ship into certain doom or something but more the feeling of Teofil's efforts with the Bridge 4 Crew and Kaladin leading.
I don't know that that's an Ideal that will make me cry, and a key element of Windrunner ideals is that they make me cry.
But tweak it to something along the lines of "I am worth saving" or "I will let others protect me" in the right context and I can already feel tears welling up.
I would also be on board with Kaladin going full drama with "I will save Roshar" and becoming a replacement for the Stormfather (broken as a result of whatever shenanigans happen in the duel). Stormfather Kaladin is my new favorite theory I've seen here 😅
“I accept that I am worthy of being saved.” would hit me like a truck, but I’m leaning into the Ideal sounding like “I accept I am worthy of protection” to fit with the whole Windrunner tenet.
Hahahha, first time I read Stormfather Kaladin. I don't know how could something like that happen, though. His arc is learning to let go responsability and when to stop caring, so I am not sure about that. Funny to consider.
Of all the theories on this topic, I think this one hits closest to true. I think I also disagree with the other comments here that suggest “death” is too much. For someone who is so intensely bent on saving others, allowing your closest friends to die would be enormously difficult. And yet in the world-saving situation that a 5th ideal Windrunner is in, allowing allies to die to save the world has to be an element.
I love it. And I can already feel how brutal this would be in the climax of a Sanderlanche.
Forgive me my broken English, it's not my 1st language and it's very late at night as I am writing this.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. To me your proposal is just differently phrased 4th ideal.
As to what the fifth ideal is.. I think it's pretty evident if you think about it, as there are 2 big pieces of information that we know about how ideals are structured:
1. Most of the radiants weren't able to progress into later ideals - this gives us a hint that there is something especially difficult about later ideals
2. We know about all of skybreakers ideals - maybe not literally but we know the meaning behind each of those
Let's then summerize what skybreakers ideals are (I'll skip the 1st ideal)
* I will seek justice
* I will dedicate myself to specific law
* I will undertake personal quest
* I am justice
This order is founded around the idea that all man's judgment is flawed thus we must follow the rule of law (it's a simplification, but bear with me) and we can see it clearly reflected in 2nd and 3rd ideals. 4th and 5th is were things are getting interesting.
With 4th ideal skybreaker doesn't really depend on a law, but on his own judgment to pick a worthy quest. With swearing 5th ideal all that really matters is his/her own judgment. But I don't think it makes ideals 2-3 obsolote. Each order of radiants usually attracts very similar people. Here we have a case of people who at least rigidly follow the law. What would be the most obvious flaw in such person? - lack of their own judgment.
So here is my theory based on what I've written above. Ideals 2-3 are meant to foster and perfect what's already good in a radiant ideologically alligned with the order. While it is not easy - generally most people are able to get better at something they are already passionate about, so most people can swear up to 3rd ideal.
The 4th and 5th are meant to get rid of your most glearing weaknesses, usually by confronting the opposite of what you belive in, and then incorporating it into your own character to get the perfect "unity of opposites". If someone where to do this, it would be **VERY** painful process and would fundamentally change who they are. This also exaplains why most people can't get to this point as not everyone is capable of such deep self reflaction and then actually going through the process of fixing the problem. With that let's go back to Windrunners
As of now we know 4/5 ideals:
* I will protect
* I will not be selfish in applying honor to people
* I accept that I can't protect
* ....
We can see that 2nd and 4th ideals are basically a unity of opposites already, that leaves us with 3rd and I think at this point you know what I am trying to say..
In order to swear 5th ideal, the windrunner must realize that they **do** get to be selfish in life. That they can purse their own **wants, passions** and most importantly, that they **DO GET TO BE HAPPY**
Actual phrasing of ideal... I honestly don't know, but I think this would be the meaning behind a 5th ideal of windrunners. Going with this theory I could also imagine Edgedancer's 4th being something like "I will not let myself be dragged down by others" addressing the potential problem of them falling in toxic relationships. Or bondsmith addressing the problem of "what to do when people don't want to be united" in their 4th ideal.
At this point, while I can agree that Kal has taken huge step with his 4th ideal he is still very far from being selfish enough to actually be happy. So this is why I don't think book 5 will be the time for Kal's 5th. It also alligns with Syl perfectly as she very often has said to Kal "I just want you to be happy" (can't remember actual quote)
I partially agree. though i don't think my version of the oath to be a variant of the fourth. Accept to let go and allows others to protect you aren't the same. Kaladin's arc is heavily involved with accepting himself and his deamons, so maybe accepting that he is just not ready for the fifth oath is a posibility.
But what can i tell you? He will for sure become a full radiant, the series is in its middle, we need a full progression of a Radiant.
You say you completely disagree, but all your reasoning seems to support OP's conclusion.
Yes, they do get to be selfish. They get to be selfish by allowing others to sacrifice for them.
I like the idea. I would propose a slightly different twist on it though - “I will respect the choices of others”.
Basically, throughout, Kaladin has struggled with the idea that other people might not want or accept his protection. Some of that is the ideal you wrote out - current Kaladin would never accept someone sacrificing themselves to save him. But it’s also things like Kaladin not wanting to let Rock go into danger.
And it also might tie in to his conflict throughout - why when is it ok to kill to protect? Because some people are CHOOSING to take the other side and create danger. They should be given the chance to negotiate, or surrender, or otherwise avoid bloodshed, but if they refuse, that’s on them.
Kaladin has accepted that he can’t save everyone, but right now that ideal sounds like “it’s ok to not be good enough”. This one would take it further - no matter how good at protecting you are, some people will choose not to accept that protection , and they’re allowed to do that!
Sunlit man spoilers >!This could fit in with Sigzil mentioning that he came to terms long ago with the fact that he often doesn't get to fight the right people. Or it could point against it if we don't believe Sigzil reached the fifth ideal before renouncing his oaths, because it would be odd for him to be comfortable with the idea that Kaladin struggles without also being the fifth ideal. !<
I think it may actually be something that enforces a higher standard upon himself, not forgives him for what he is already doing. If he is to be the leader of the largest militaristic order, he should be extremely scrutinized for his choices of which battles to conduct.
"I will protect with my words before my weapon
" or something.
Yeah, I like this twist, though I didn't put too much efforst to the words itself, i think the important is the theme of the Oath, what it means to Kaladin. Yours and mine are essentially the same in his character growth.
“I accept others death to protect me”.
I've seen a lot of proposed Fifth Ideals on this sub but this one actually seems plausible.
Of course it'll be phrased differently but this might actually be the core idea.
Is it really clear that he will say the last ideal only days or weeks after the fourth ideal? There are still 5 more books to follow.
About the skybreakers: I am not sure if we can really trust the "I am the law". I wouldnt be surprised, if Nale and the Highspren dont want any fifth oath radiants for some reason that might have something to do with the recreance and use this to missguide the skybreakers.
My take is something like "I will accept that sometimes, I am the one who needs protecting"
He has struggled throughout the books with letting other people stand in front of him. He often feels that he needs to protect everyone, at the expense of his own safety and sanity. He will need to accept that sometimes other people will need to step up and fill the gaps that he can't
I didn't put to much effort into the words of the Ideal, somewhat the lines of allowing the protection of others, accepting that i am not the only one who can protect, something Kaladin had struggled a lot.
i saw someone suggest it being “i will trust in my heart to know what is right” and i think that also fits. a major issue for kal has been “but am i on the *right* side, killing the *right* people?” and i think learning to accept that he can trust himself to judge that would be a big step. your theory makes sense though and is a very common one
Personally, I hope it’s something to do with protecting Kaladin himself, so that he can continue to save others. I’m reminded of a quote from the movie “The Guardian” - “There will come a time when you might have to decide who lives and dies out there. It's a terrible responsibility but it's one you will have to make as a rescue swimmer. The bigger reality is, its also something you are going to have to live with as a human being. There will come a time when you will have to say no. The most important person to keep alive is yourself. You'll be facing crews from 5 to 20 all saying 'save me, save me.'”
I think Kaladin realizing that he might have to abandon someone to protect himself, so that he can continue to save more in the future, or allowing others to sacrifice themselves to protect him for the same reason, would be thematically on point and complete his arc of “I cannot save everyone”.
I thought Moash and Kaladins arc may end together with Kaladins 5th ideal. "I accept I may have to kill those I have sworn to protect if it is right" or something more graceful along those lines
This is what i think it will be as well. There's a couple of clear themes that have yet to be wrapped up. One is that there's is an inevitable collision course between Moash and Kaladin. Another is the ongoing conflict between Kaladin and his father about "Can you kill to protect?". I think these two unresolved plots come together for Kaladin's 5th ideal whereby he whispers something along the lines of "I will sacrifice those i love to protect innocents" just before he kills moash. Moash is clearly after bridge 4 members and I think that might be the only thing that could tip Kal over the edge is his need to defend them.
That 5th ideal doesn't seem complete enough to me. I'll preface by saying I'm not basing this on a whole lot of evidence but I feel like the 5th ideal has to be something complete and certain, and isn't just an evolution of previous oaths but a culmination of what they represent. The only 5th ideal we know is the Skybreakers but their 5th oath pretty much encapsulates the core principle of their order - to fully inhabit the principles of law within one's self. While the oath itself is simple, to truly swear it means you've mastered the ideals of justice and are sure enough about what is lawfully right that you do not rely on external mandates to guide your decisions.
Accepting you can also be protected doesn't seem like a consolidation of what it means to be a windrunner, and instead just feels like another step tacked on. Looking at the previous ideals we have
- an oath to protect those who need it
- an oath to essentially protect in spite of any biases or caveats you may personally hold
-acknowledge that you cannot protect everyone
This is essentially oaths to courage, impartiality and knowing your limitations. Acknowledging that you need protected too doesn't quite fit for me, and feels too close to Tefts second ideal, which partly acknowledges that he needs help too, and that he needs to protect himself. I know that's not quite the same but it's pretty close.
I don't have any better suggestions to be honest. I really don't know what the 5th windrunner ideal would be, and I'm not super convinced that Kaladin will swear it in Wind and Truth. It seems like it'll take place where RoW left off, and will take place over a relatively short span of time. It doesn't seem likely to me that Kal will swear the 5th so soon after the 4th, if he even does at all. I would expect the 5th ideal to be something incredibly hard to swear.
Considering windrunners follow the principles of Jezrien perhaps the 5th ideal will be more about leadership? Something that would be hard for Kal would be to accept that picking sides isn't being true to his ideals, that he cannot truly protect by killing in the way he has. This has the advantage of foreshadowing, as Kaladin has struggled a lot with this question, and it has put him at odds with Lirins staunch pacifism. I think Kaladin might need to accept that to be if the 5th ideal he needs to protect by leading and setting an example, and he can't just simply be a soldier serving another. He'd have to step up and become a true leader like the Herald of Kings and walk his own path, and guide others.
I think choice is the right theme, but if the fifth ideal needs to be grand and overarching like “I am the law,” then it could be as loose as “My choices have consequences that I accept.” Kaladin craves control - for good and altruistic reasons, but he still wants to control things to prevent bad outcomes. Plus Syl is the embodiment of free will. I think that’s very important to cap their relationship.
I think the oath is going to be simpler. I can't protect others if I don't protect myself. Or maybe..."I can only die to protect others once".. something about self sacrifice not being the goal
I don't know man, he survives but he doesn't do it as a Windrunner. I think you might be right that Bridge 4 is basically entirely gone at the end of the next book.
I'm waiting on book 5 and avoiding previews as well...
As I've contemplated the oaths, and how they affect their speakers, the main issue that always comes around is contradictions. These contradictions are part of what nearly broke Kal when he watched Elhokar die; he had viewed to protect, but he was faced with a circumstance in which he felt the need to protect two sides of a conflict from one another. The militant 'us vs them mindset was at odds with not only itself, but the 'God complex'that tends to run parallel with superhuman abilities.
At this (post RoW) point in time, we only know the 5th ideal of the skybreakers; and that ideal 'resolves' those conflicts by taking external law and making it internal. At 5th ideal, you become judge, enforcer and lawmaker.
I would expect the 5th radiant ideal to follow that same pattern, and it would make sense that the entire idea of szeth and kaladin running off together would be for the otherwise opposing orders to find balance from comradery.
Kaladin's 5th ideal will need to allow him to navigate a situation such as he faced with Elhokar without breaking his oaths or damaging his bond to Syl. For me that implies the ability to harm someone he would otherwise be bound to protect if it is for a greater good.
Coupled with the parallels between kal and moash, I expect that kaladin is going to need to use that oath to harm someone he loves (maybe sigzil or his spren?) As the 'least bad' of a multitude of choices, in the name of something greater.
Example: odium's champion sets a trap, and a bridge four member is heroically rushing straight into it. If the trap springs, they'll be brainwashed and join odium, losing themselves or empowering the champion to overcome Dalinar's, now risking the safety of the of the entire cosmere. It would be 'right' to 'smack down' said close, protectable friend, but doing so without a new ideal would cost him his spren under his current oaths.
I'm going to go with a fifth ideal among the lives of:
"When faced with a conflicting choice, I will trust ___ (myself, other person, creed, law, etc) to decide how to best protect ____ (greater entity: the many, the few, the selected group, the peace).
This allows flexibility between oaths, but also allows more flexibility for a mature radiant.
I think you're close. I've thought it will be more about ordering others to their (potential) death. The windrunner's statement from the gemstones Renarin found at Urithiru, "Aren't we supposed to protect people", supports this.
The Fourth ideal was about accepting that you can't protect everyone on your own and that it's OK that others die while protecting innocents.
I think the Fifth Ideal will be "I will choose who must die, so others may live". It's an inversion of the Windrunner's ideals to that point, just like the Skybreakers who are built on rigid adherence to an external code, until at the Fifth they flip and follow their own judgment.
I think that can be a potential fifth oath, but Kaladin really struggles with letting others protect instead, being the reason why he declined being a trainer for future windrunners. You version works, and makes sense, but for Kaladin i think he already is ready to decide who kill to protect others.
I think it works because it also encapsulates what you're saying. Not only choosing who should be killed, but who should be sacrificed for the greater good (which could include people being sacrificed to protect himself). I think the Fifth ideal must be about Leadership and being able to bear the weight of the decisions that others cannot make.
IDK - i still think Sando will surprise us with a controversial ideal, something like “I will sacrifice some to protect the greater good” and have Kaladin reject it by not killing Gavilar as Odiums champion, and sacrificing himself instead.
I slightly disagree with the word "death" there in the ideal, simply "I accept that others will protect me" as "Death" feels a bit too much. As you say all the other ideals are about the windrunner protecting *others.* The fourth ideal was even about accepting there are times you can't protect everyone. But for someone so bent on protecting others it's really hard to accept that you also need to be protected. I've got a friend who I think would be a windrunner, he'd give you the shirt off his back during winter without complaint if you needed it. So yeah him accepting that he sometimes needs help without helping the person in return would be a big thing for him.
There was a thread about this yesterday and I arrived in a similar camp. I think it's likely the 5th ideal is accepting others protecting you, or accepting that others can protect themselves (companion to the second ideal). These make more sense to me than the suggestions I've seen that the 5th ideal is going to be in the vein of there are some people you shouldn't protect. That doesn't seem like a good trajectory for that character arc.
I interpret that those theories are focused on Moash, and how Kaladin fifth Oath will help him overcome his conflicts to be able to face him. That's another possibility that I see, but still.
I feel like that's already covered by the 4th ideal. That Kal accepts he cannot protect Moash because Moash does not want to be protected and fights against it.
It also fits with the end of Oathbringer where Kaladin is struggling to say the Fourth Ideal because he couldn’t go back and save Dalinar. Syl comforts him by saying “Maybe you don’t have to save anyone, Kaladin.” However, she does not explain this by having Kaladin accept that sometimes there are those he cannot protect. Instead, she says “Maybe it’s time for someone to save you.” That statement is her saying that Kaladin is also worthy of being protected, and that there are moments where someone else must protect him without immediate reciprocity. Syl knows what the Fifth Ideal is (most likely, at least) and is hinting/foreshadowing at what it is to Kal.
My guess pre-Oathbringer was: I will protect myself, so I can protect others. But that would probably be too close to Teft's version of the third ideal. I do like your version, though. It also captures the need to be protected yourself and inverts the "protecting others" even better than my idea.
I can’t wait for Kaladin to climax in the new book
No mating!
He was an Edgerunner all along.
Are we not doing phrasing any more?
I think we'll see the "final bridge run" in book 5. Where bridge 4 will protect kaladin. And he will swear his fifth to let them protect him. Evidence for this is the thematic bridge runs in the books. Humans pushing into a place where they are outnumbered and out gunned but somehow proving that through training and working together they can accomplish impossible things. Teofil's push for the crystal pillar being the "bridge run" of book 4. Something like that with Kaladin leading his men to certain doom. But knowing they must to protect Roshar.
> think we'll see the "final bridge run" in book 5. Their bridge is now a ahip....
Yeah I just meant thematically it will be a "bridge run" not literally running their bridge like in book 1. Maybe flying the ship into certain doom or something but more the feeling of Teofil's efforts with the Bridge 4 Crew and Kaladin leading.
I think they are implying that being a ship makes it easier to imagine your bridge run
Ah. Tone and Intent. This is what Sanderson truly meant with his magic systems.
Man I love this so much
I don't know that that's an Ideal that will make me cry, and a key element of Windrunner ideals is that they make me cry. But tweak it to something along the lines of "I am worth saving" or "I will let others protect me" in the right context and I can already feel tears welling up. I would also be on board with Kaladin going full drama with "I will save Roshar" and becoming a replacement for the Stormfather (broken as a result of whatever shenanigans happen in the duel). Stormfather Kaladin is my new favorite theory I've seen here 😅
"I am worth saving" would be incredibly powerful, especially given the overall struggle with depression too.
I am worth saving feels too similar to Teft swearing his third ideal
“I accept that I am worthy of being saved.” would hit me like a truck, but I’m leaning into the Ideal sounding like “I accept I am worthy of protection” to fit with the whole Windrunner tenet.
Hahahha, first time I read Stormfather Kaladin. I don't know how could something like that happen, though. His arc is learning to let go responsability and when to stop caring, so I am not sure about that. Funny to consider.
Of all the theories on this topic, I think this one hits closest to true. I think I also disagree with the other comments here that suggest “death” is too much. For someone who is so intensely bent on saving others, allowing your closest friends to die would be enormously difficult. And yet in the world-saving situation that a 5th ideal Windrunner is in, allowing allies to die to save the world has to be an element. I love it. And I can already feel how brutal this would be in the climax of a Sanderlanche.
It will be brutal.
Forgive me my broken English, it's not my 1st language and it's very late at night as I am writing this. Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. To me your proposal is just differently phrased 4th ideal. As to what the fifth ideal is.. I think it's pretty evident if you think about it, as there are 2 big pieces of information that we know about how ideals are structured: 1. Most of the radiants weren't able to progress into later ideals - this gives us a hint that there is something especially difficult about later ideals 2. We know about all of skybreakers ideals - maybe not literally but we know the meaning behind each of those Let's then summerize what skybreakers ideals are (I'll skip the 1st ideal) * I will seek justice * I will dedicate myself to specific law * I will undertake personal quest * I am justice This order is founded around the idea that all man's judgment is flawed thus we must follow the rule of law (it's a simplification, but bear with me) and we can see it clearly reflected in 2nd and 3rd ideals. 4th and 5th is were things are getting interesting. With 4th ideal skybreaker doesn't really depend on a law, but on his own judgment to pick a worthy quest. With swearing 5th ideal all that really matters is his/her own judgment. But I don't think it makes ideals 2-3 obsolote. Each order of radiants usually attracts very similar people. Here we have a case of people who at least rigidly follow the law. What would be the most obvious flaw in such person? - lack of their own judgment. So here is my theory based on what I've written above. Ideals 2-3 are meant to foster and perfect what's already good in a radiant ideologically alligned with the order. While it is not easy - generally most people are able to get better at something they are already passionate about, so most people can swear up to 3rd ideal. The 4th and 5th are meant to get rid of your most glearing weaknesses, usually by confronting the opposite of what you belive in, and then incorporating it into your own character to get the perfect "unity of opposites". If someone where to do this, it would be **VERY** painful process and would fundamentally change who they are. This also exaplains why most people can't get to this point as not everyone is capable of such deep self reflaction and then actually going through the process of fixing the problem. With that let's go back to Windrunners As of now we know 4/5 ideals: * I will protect * I will not be selfish in applying honor to people * I accept that I can't protect * .... We can see that 2nd and 4th ideals are basically a unity of opposites already, that leaves us with 3rd and I think at this point you know what I am trying to say.. In order to swear 5th ideal, the windrunner must realize that they **do** get to be selfish in life. That they can purse their own **wants, passions** and most importantly, that they **DO GET TO BE HAPPY** Actual phrasing of ideal... I honestly don't know, but I think this would be the meaning behind a 5th ideal of windrunners. Going with this theory I could also imagine Edgedancer's 4th being something like "I will not let myself be dragged down by others" addressing the potential problem of them falling in toxic relationships. Or bondsmith addressing the problem of "what to do when people don't want to be united" in their 4th ideal. At this point, while I can agree that Kal has taken huge step with his 4th ideal he is still very far from being selfish enough to actually be happy. So this is why I don't think book 5 will be the time for Kal's 5th. It also alligns with Syl perfectly as she very often has said to Kal "I just want you to be happy" (can't remember actual quote)
I partially agree. though i don't think my version of the oath to be a variant of the fourth. Accept to let go and allows others to protect you aren't the same. Kaladin's arc is heavily involved with accepting himself and his deamons, so maybe accepting that he is just not ready for the fifth oath is a posibility. But what can i tell you? He will for sure become a full radiant, the series is in its middle, we need a full progression of a Radiant.
You say you completely disagree, but all your reasoning seems to support OP's conclusion. Yes, they do get to be selfish. They get to be selfish by allowing others to sacrifice for them.
I like the idea. I would propose a slightly different twist on it though - “I will respect the choices of others”. Basically, throughout, Kaladin has struggled with the idea that other people might not want or accept his protection. Some of that is the ideal you wrote out - current Kaladin would never accept someone sacrificing themselves to save him. But it’s also things like Kaladin not wanting to let Rock go into danger. And it also might tie in to his conflict throughout - why when is it ok to kill to protect? Because some people are CHOOSING to take the other side and create danger. They should be given the chance to negotiate, or surrender, or otherwise avoid bloodshed, but if they refuse, that’s on them. Kaladin has accepted that he can’t save everyone, but right now that ideal sounds like “it’s ok to not be good enough”. This one would take it further - no matter how good at protecting you are, some people will choose not to accept that protection , and they’re allowed to do that!
Sunlit man spoilers >!This could fit in with Sigzil mentioning that he came to terms long ago with the fact that he often doesn't get to fight the right people. Or it could point against it if we don't believe Sigzil reached the fifth ideal before renouncing his oaths, because it would be odd for him to be comfortable with the idea that Kaladin struggles without also being the fifth ideal. !< I think it may actually be something that enforces a higher standard upon himself, not forgives him for what he is already doing. If he is to be the leader of the largest militaristic order, he should be extremely scrutinized for his choices of which battles to conduct. "I will protect with my words before my weapon " or something.
Yeah, I like this twist, though I didn't put too much efforst to the words itself, i think the important is the theme of the Oath, what it means to Kaladin. Yours and mine are essentially the same in his character growth.
Makes sense! I agree
“I accept that I cannot protect others by sacrificing myself.”
"I accept that I too need protection"
“I accept others death to protect me”. I've seen a lot of proposed Fifth Ideals on this sub but this one actually seems plausible. Of course it'll be phrased differently but this might actually be the core idea.
Is it really clear that he will say the last ideal only days or weeks after the fourth ideal? There are still 5 more books to follow. About the skybreakers: I am not sure if we can really trust the "I am the law". I wouldnt be surprised, if Nale and the Highspren dont want any fifth oath radiants for some reason that might have something to do with the recreance and use this to missguide the skybreakers.
My take is something like "I will accept that sometimes, I am the one who needs protecting" He has struggled throughout the books with letting other people stand in front of him. He often feels that he needs to protect everyone, at the expense of his own safety and sanity. He will need to accept that sometimes other people will need to step up and fill the gaps that he can't
I didn't put to much effort into the words of the Ideal, somewhat the lines of allowing the protection of others, accepting that i am not the only one who can protect, something Kaladin had struggled a lot.
i saw someone suggest it being “i will trust in my heart to know what is right” and i think that also fits. a major issue for kal has been “but am i on the *right* side, killing the *right* people?” and i think learning to accept that he can trust himself to judge that would be a big step. your theory makes sense though and is a very common one
I think the Windrunners' fifth ideal will be closer to the Skybreakers'. Not so simple or lofty as "I am honor," but something along those lines.
Personally, I hope it’s something to do with protecting Kaladin himself, so that he can continue to save others. I’m reminded of a quote from the movie “The Guardian” - “There will come a time when you might have to decide who lives and dies out there. It's a terrible responsibility but it's one you will have to make as a rescue swimmer. The bigger reality is, its also something you are going to have to live with as a human being. There will come a time when you will have to say no. The most important person to keep alive is yourself. You'll be facing crews from 5 to 20 all saying 'save me, save me.'” I think Kaladin realizing that he might have to abandon someone to protect himself, so that he can continue to save more in the future, or allowing others to sacrifice themselves to protect him for the same reason, would be thematically on point and complete his arc of “I cannot save everyone”.
I thought Moash and Kaladins arc may end together with Kaladins 5th ideal. "I accept I may have to kill those I have sworn to protect if it is right" or something more graceful along those lines
This is what i think it will be as well. There's a couple of clear themes that have yet to be wrapped up. One is that there's is an inevitable collision course between Moash and Kaladin. Another is the ongoing conflict between Kaladin and his father about "Can you kill to protect?". I think these two unresolved plots come together for Kaladin's 5th ideal whereby he whispers something along the lines of "I will sacrifice those i love to protect innocents" just before he kills moash. Moash is clearly after bridge 4 members and I think that might be the only thing that could tip Kal over the edge is his need to defend them.
Sounds really specific ahahhaha
I prefer something more like “I accept that there are those who do not deserve protection”
I mean, he accepts that from the start, right? It sounds like the easiest oath in that point.
Maybe something like “I will not protect alone”
That 5th ideal doesn't seem complete enough to me. I'll preface by saying I'm not basing this on a whole lot of evidence but I feel like the 5th ideal has to be something complete and certain, and isn't just an evolution of previous oaths but a culmination of what they represent. The only 5th ideal we know is the Skybreakers but their 5th oath pretty much encapsulates the core principle of their order - to fully inhabit the principles of law within one's self. While the oath itself is simple, to truly swear it means you've mastered the ideals of justice and are sure enough about what is lawfully right that you do not rely on external mandates to guide your decisions. Accepting you can also be protected doesn't seem like a consolidation of what it means to be a windrunner, and instead just feels like another step tacked on. Looking at the previous ideals we have - an oath to protect those who need it - an oath to essentially protect in spite of any biases or caveats you may personally hold -acknowledge that you cannot protect everyone This is essentially oaths to courage, impartiality and knowing your limitations. Acknowledging that you need protected too doesn't quite fit for me, and feels too close to Tefts second ideal, which partly acknowledges that he needs help too, and that he needs to protect himself. I know that's not quite the same but it's pretty close. I don't have any better suggestions to be honest. I really don't know what the 5th windrunner ideal would be, and I'm not super convinced that Kaladin will swear it in Wind and Truth. It seems like it'll take place where RoW left off, and will take place over a relatively short span of time. It doesn't seem likely to me that Kal will swear the 5th so soon after the 4th, if he even does at all. I would expect the 5th ideal to be something incredibly hard to swear. Considering windrunners follow the principles of Jezrien perhaps the 5th ideal will be more about leadership? Something that would be hard for Kal would be to accept that picking sides isn't being true to his ideals, that he cannot truly protect by killing in the way he has. This has the advantage of foreshadowing, as Kaladin has struggled a lot with this question, and it has put him at odds with Lirins staunch pacifism. I think Kaladin might need to accept that to be if the 5th ideal he needs to protect by leading and setting an example, and he can't just simply be a soldier serving another. He'd have to step up and become a true leader like the Herald of Kings and walk his own path, and guide others.
I think choice is the right theme, but if the fifth ideal needs to be grand and overarching like “I am the law,” then it could be as loose as “My choices have consequences that I accept.” Kaladin craves control - for good and altruistic reasons, but he still wants to control things to prevent bad outcomes. Plus Syl is the embodiment of free will. I think that’s very important to cap their relationship.
I think the oath is going to be simpler. I can't protect others if I don't protect myself. Or maybe..."I can only die to protect others once".. something about self sacrifice not being the goal
The fifth ideal for windrunners is clearly gonna be "I will wear protection"
I don't know man, he survives but he doesn't do it as a Windrunner. I think you might be right that Bridge 4 is basically entirely gone at the end of the next book.
I'm waiting on book 5 and avoiding previews as well... As I've contemplated the oaths, and how they affect their speakers, the main issue that always comes around is contradictions. These contradictions are part of what nearly broke Kal when he watched Elhokar die; he had viewed to protect, but he was faced with a circumstance in which he felt the need to protect two sides of a conflict from one another. The militant 'us vs them mindset was at odds with not only itself, but the 'God complex'that tends to run parallel with superhuman abilities. At this (post RoW) point in time, we only know the 5th ideal of the skybreakers; and that ideal 'resolves' those conflicts by taking external law and making it internal. At 5th ideal, you become judge, enforcer and lawmaker. I would expect the 5th radiant ideal to follow that same pattern, and it would make sense that the entire idea of szeth and kaladin running off together would be for the otherwise opposing orders to find balance from comradery. Kaladin's 5th ideal will need to allow him to navigate a situation such as he faced with Elhokar without breaking his oaths or damaging his bond to Syl. For me that implies the ability to harm someone he would otherwise be bound to protect if it is for a greater good. Coupled with the parallels between kal and moash, I expect that kaladin is going to need to use that oath to harm someone he loves (maybe sigzil or his spren?) As the 'least bad' of a multitude of choices, in the name of something greater. Example: odium's champion sets a trap, and a bridge four member is heroically rushing straight into it. If the trap springs, they'll be brainwashed and join odium, losing themselves or empowering the champion to overcome Dalinar's, now risking the safety of the of the entire cosmere. It would be 'right' to 'smack down' said close, protectable friend, but doing so without a new ideal would cost him his spren under his current oaths. I'm going to go with a fifth ideal among the lives of: "When faced with a conflicting choice, I will trust ___ (myself, other person, creed, law, etc) to decide how to best protect ____ (greater entity: the many, the few, the selected group, the peace). This allows flexibility between oaths, but also allows more flexibility for a mature radiant.
I go back and forth on this one. I think it will come back to Kaladin’s defining question: can I save people by killing people?
I think you're close. I've thought it will be more about ordering others to their (potential) death. The windrunner's statement from the gemstones Renarin found at Urithiru, "Aren't we supposed to protect people", supports this. The Fourth ideal was about accepting that you can't protect everyone on your own and that it's OK that others die while protecting innocents. I think the Fifth Ideal will be "I will choose who must die, so others may live". It's an inversion of the Windrunner's ideals to that point, just like the Skybreakers who are built on rigid adherence to an external code, until at the Fifth they flip and follow their own judgment.
I think that can be a potential fifth oath, but Kaladin really struggles with letting others protect instead, being the reason why he declined being a trainer for future windrunners. You version works, and makes sense, but for Kaladin i think he already is ready to decide who kill to protect others.
I think it works because it also encapsulates what you're saying. Not only choosing who should be killed, but who should be sacrificed for the greater good (which could include people being sacrificed to protect himself). I think the Fifth ideal must be about Leadership and being able to bear the weight of the decisions that others cannot make.
IDK - i still think Sando will surprise us with a controversial ideal, something like “I will sacrifice some to protect the greater good” and have Kaladin reject it by not killing Gavilar as Odiums champion, and sacrificing himself instead.