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In a literal sense he's in plenty of situations where he could, but is he capable of putting that into action or would the Torment halt any intentional moves toward that end?
Possibly. Correct me if I'm wrong though but doesn't he actually consider that at one point? Like just giving up, stop running and letting the sunlight take him? I could be wrong it's been awhile since I read the book.
Oh I forgot that, good catch. He does, but dismisses it pretty quickly:
>“It will kill me if it does…” Nomad whispered.
>*Is that…what you want?*
>No.
>No, even though he hated much about his life, he didn't want to die. Even though each day he became something more feral…well, feral things knew to struggle for life.
I'd argue that this *could* be a more subtle influence from the Command he took, but could also just be normal survival instinct like most living things have evolved to put front-and-center, hard to say without knowing more of how Dawnshards affect their bearers. Either way he has little interest in that route.
That's fair, I could see that being the case. I'm not sure the leftover influence of the Dawnshard could directly stop him from just standing still and letting the sunlight take him like that, but I could absolutely see it subtle influencing him to want to keep moving.
TW: suicide
Any time I see people talk about pragmatic suicide I just have to roll my eyes. We are so hard coded for wanting to live and live long. Even those of us who have experienced grave periods of depression have chosen to keep going, even when we can't feel hope or joy. If humans stopped aging or dying suddenly, the number of people who would pragmatically choose euthanasia to keep us from overpopulating would be in the thousands, maybe. People *don't want to die*, it's fundamental. It's why we treat thinking about suicide much more seriously than just thinking about what it'd be like to not be here anymore. Read or watch any crazy survival story where people go to extreme lengths to stay alive. Underground Railroad, 127 Hours, or Yellowjackets come to mind. The things we will do to just keep going, even in the face of incredible loss are about as harrowing as things get.
So no, you're right, Nomad couldn't *just get himself killed*. That takes a certain fundamental breakdown of the psyche to seek such an end.
As quoted in [this comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/1ds0bp7/horrifying_thing_i_realized_about_nomads_pursuers/lazobuf/)
> “It will kill me if it does…” Nomad whispered.
> Is that…what you want?
> No.
> No, even though he hated much about his life, he didn't want to die. Even though each day he became something more feral…well, feral things knew to struggle for life.
*Oathbringer* spoilers: >!remember that Interlude with Kaza on Aimiah? How the Sleepless refused to tell her anything because even in death she could be made to tell their secrets? I think they were talking about the Night Brigade.!<
ohhh i literally read that recently and yeah, you might be right. Maybe not specifically the Night Brigade yet, but something like it. The kinds of powers of the Cosmere that know what a Dawnshard is and want one will have the kind of tools and ressources to get information out of the dead if they can get them. A dragon, Ire, those types of forces. Scary shit. Poor Kaza
They don’t need to force anything from him. The point was that by having held a dawnshard, his spirit was warped by it and can be used to point to the current holder of the dawnshard, dead or alive.
The Night Brigade are also explicitly necromancers and Hemalurgists and able to compel at least Threnodite shades and possibly exert influence over other Cognitive Shadows.
I wonder if the Canticle "Sun" could have been intense enough to solve that problem. We don't know what the Device is doing in the Cognitive Realm, but we do know that the people of Canticle don't create Shades if they go through the Sun.
If that weren't enough, I suspect that if his Cognitive Shadow were to make it back into the Physical Realm, a second trip through the Sunwall would obliterate the problem.
TLR decided to go the Beyond so Nomad could do the same. As to how to kill him... well, that's gonna be hard, but I guess that anti-Investiture should work
I thought if he died the Night Brigade would just chase whoever had the Dawnshard before him. If he is alive they can only sense him. If he dies the connection their chasing would show whoever bore it previously.
That was my interpretation.
Chapter 1:
>...would it be far enough away to hide from the Night Brigade?
Of course it wouldn't be. No place could hide him from them. He had to keep moving. Had to...
And:
>*Uh, Nomad,* Aux said in his monotone voice. I *get the feeling that trying to absorb and use Investiture from that is going to be like trying to pick out a snowflake from an avalanche. I... dont think we should let it hit you.*
>"It will kill me if it does..." Nomad whispered.
>*Is that... what you want?*
>No.
Chapter 27:
>"The Night Bridgade commands armies of the dead," he said. "They're largely a mercenary force, known for their brutal efficiency. They're the only army I know that makes you keep on fighting after you've died..."
Chapter 28:
>Nomad had mistakenly assumed that they wouldn't be interested in him because he no longer held the Dawnshard...He'd soon learned that, with their twisted arts. they could kill him and fashion a spike from his soul that would lead them to the person he had given the Dawnshard. To them, Nomad was a crucial link in a very important chain. And he was far more useful dead than alive.
Epilogue:
>But as he left, two shades -- with glowing red eyes, bearing the uniforms they'd been wearing when they'd died-- joined him from the corners of the room. The Admiral needed no vocal command for them, and their movement meant she obviously wanted to be alone. Not even accompanied by the dead.
I guess to make a hemalurgic spike he would need to be a fresh kill. They have control over Threnody shades, which he is not, but maybe they have lifeless as well. Maybe suicide or death would be ok. It appears he just doesn't want to die. So I think I'm wrong but we don't know enough about the situation to really know what's going on.
I don't remember specifically why, but I had the exact same takeaway as you - if Sigzil dies, whatever method they're currently using to track him *currently* would instead work on the next person down the chain.
So he can't get captured (because they would just use hemalurgy), and he can't die (because whatever method they're using now would then also point next down the chain).
But I don't remember why the second is true.
Oh wow! How long did it take you to find all these?
I see the point. So it’s kind of even worse for him, since if he manages to get to the beyond, he would doom somebody else.
Not too long. Maybe 30 mins or so. Just using a wiki to find references to the night brigade, finding the reference in the book, figuring out if it was relevant, and transcribing it.
His soul to be specific. So if he would manage to get to the beyond he probably would be fine. But also would doom another person that held the Dawnshard to be hunted now.
Highly invested beings not necesarily turn into cognitive shadows.
Warbreaker spoilers
>!The returned are offered a second chance, but they are not forced to take it.!<
Mistborn Secret History spoilers
>!Kelsier also had a choice, but he found that punching Leras was a better option than going to the Beyond. Also, he was being pulled against his will and had to rush to the Well before being forced into the Beyond. Once in the Well, he found enough investiture to anchor himself. And he did it so well he can't even get out of Scadrial now.!<
>!The Lord Ruler pretty much saw the Cognitive Scadrial, insulted Kelsier, and exited the chat in the biggest chad move Branderson ever wrote.!<
>!Vin and Elend held shards, and they went onto the beyond nevertheless.!<
>!Ati and Leras are kinda like cognitive shadows, but they probably had a foot in the Spiritual realm too.!<
>!Ati wanted to stay, and Leras was pretty much mindless due to his plan, so he probably wasn't totally able to make a choice.!<
Stormlight spoilers
>!The Fused have a weird thing going on, but when killed with a shardblade, they don't seem to leave a cognitive shadow behind.!<
There's a lot of misinformation here.
>!1)The returned are not necessarily invested when they die. They are normal people who become cognitive shadows when given the divine breath.
2) Elend never held a shard.
3)TLR was not invested when he died, the power had withdrawn from him. Allomancers do not hold investiture they channel it. There is a difference.
4)The fused are already cognitive shadows, the same as the heralds.!<
You can’t have a line break between beginning and ending spoiler tags. Put a set of tags in each paragraph to fix it.
>!Rashek was still a Sliver and could have resisted the pull of the Beyond indefinitely, same as Kelsier.!<
Appreciate the heads up!
Been a while since I read AU but I thought when the power left him he was just a normal full born, so still crazy powerful and left with insights from the power but no longer being actively influenced by it
From Coppermind-
> [no particular plot points, Sliver mechanics] >!Despite having released the power they once held, a Sliver is still noticeably more Invested than the average person,[11] which likely contributes to some of their other traits. Most notably, Slivers can resist the pull of the Beyond indefinitely and choose to instead remain in the cosmere as a Cognitive Shadow if they wish.[12][13] Beyond that, they are also more capable of influencing the Physical Realm from the Cognitive and are more resistant to the influence and control of a Shard.!<
>!TLR was invested though. He was a Sliver. I believe Preservation even says it outright. Also I believe that Allomancers are invested more than a normal person, i think its mentioned in Secret History!<
>!Yerp! We've addressed the sliver thing, i was mistaken when i thougt all power left him. you're right. allomancers and Skaa both have more inate investiture than a nonscadrian human due to them containing a dash of preservation. I wasn't trying to say they are completely uninvested. I just meant that when they perform allomancy, they are not holding investiture within themselves the same way a radient does.!<
>!I think that is only kind of true, while burning metals, the investiture is inside of them until used. Depending on the amount of metals being burned, they probably have as much investiture in them as a radiant, if not close. It doesn't quite act the same way because the metal is the "key" to a "door" in the Spiritual realm that allows access to a very certain type of investiture, i.e. the specific use of allomancy. I do find it ironic that none of the Allomantic metals heal. Very odd for them to not preserve. Also interesting that Allomancy is is so "keyed" but stormlight isn't. Like i am unsure if Vasher being an allomancer could keep him alive like breathing Stormlight does or having access to purified Dor would presumably. !<
Cognitive shadows that CHOSE to turn into one, and some of them had to do quite a bit of work to do so.
If a highly invested being wants to die, it probably can.
During that encounter, Thaidakar glows blue, turns into a ball of light with a glyph at the middle, and flies out the window. I don't think that's in person. I think that's a Seon.
Kelsier wasnt there in person. He is specifically looking for a way to leave Scadrial. Mraize says as much. It seemed like Kelsier was speaking through a seon or something similar but more advanced
I thought the reason he doesnt kill himself is because the method of tracking the dawnshard identifies the most recent holder. If Sigzil no longer is alive, there is the chance the method will find the previous holder*
Edit: Holder Sigzil has pass it onto
It's vague, and I don't think BS intends to give a clear answer. Is the shadow you, or is it investiture pretending to be you? Up to interpretation at the moment
That’s an interesting thought. It like the teleporter problem. If you are teleported by being deconstructed and rebuild, are you still you?
I would love to see some of the in universe philosophers discussing this. Especially Ham
From “The Sunlit Man” as the tag says. ;)
The newest book. (I think)
If you don’t want to get spoilers I would suggest not reading posts with tags from book you haven’t read.
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Is he *able* to kill himself (or even allow himself to die), given his Torment?
He can easily get himself killed.
In a literal sense he's in plenty of situations where he could, but is he capable of putting that into action or would the Torment halt any intentional moves toward that end?
He probably could have just stood in that sunlight, that probably would have been effective and I don't think the torment could have stopped him.
What would it have done, made him lock up?
I guess.
Ya I’m with you on that one. I think if Nomad was aware of a potential path for survival, he would be spiritually compelled to take it.
Possibly. Correct me if I'm wrong though but doesn't he actually consider that at one point? Like just giving up, stop running and letting the sunlight take him? I could be wrong it's been awhile since I read the book.
Oh I forgot that, good catch. He does, but dismisses it pretty quickly: >“It will kill me if it does…” Nomad whispered. >*Is that…what you want?* >No. >No, even though he hated much about his life, he didn't want to die. Even though each day he became something more feral…well, feral things knew to struggle for life. I'd argue that this *could* be a more subtle influence from the Command he took, but could also just be normal survival instinct like most living things have evolved to put front-and-center, hard to say without knowing more of how Dawnshards affect their bearers. Either way he has little interest in that route.
That's fair, I could see that being the case. I'm not sure the leftover influence of the Dawnshard could directly stop him from just standing still and letting the sunlight take him like that, but I could absolutely see it subtle influencing him to want to keep moving.
Yeah fair enough, I can agree with that distinction.
He’d have left behind a sunheart that could potentially be used.
He's able to maneuver himself into positions that are almost like fighting, so I don't see why not.
It learns from that pretty quickly, though, doesn't it?
TW: suicide Any time I see people talk about pragmatic suicide I just have to roll my eyes. We are so hard coded for wanting to live and live long. Even those of us who have experienced grave periods of depression have chosen to keep going, even when we can't feel hope or joy. If humans stopped aging or dying suddenly, the number of people who would pragmatically choose euthanasia to keep us from overpopulating would be in the thousands, maybe. People *don't want to die*, it's fundamental. It's why we treat thinking about suicide much more seriously than just thinking about what it'd be like to not be here anymore. Read or watch any crazy survival story where people go to extreme lengths to stay alive. Underground Railroad, 127 Hours, or Yellowjackets come to mind. The things we will do to just keep going, even in the face of incredible loss are about as harrowing as things get. So no, you're right, Nomad couldn't *just get himself killed*. That takes a certain fundamental breakdown of the psyche to seek such an end.
As quoted in [this comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/1ds0bp7/horrifying_thing_i_realized_about_nomads_pursuers/lazobuf/) > “It will kill me if it does…” Nomad whispered. > Is that…what you want? > No. > No, even though he hated much about his life, he didn't want to die. Even though each day he became something more feral…well, feral things knew to struggle for life.
I thought He removed his Torment
Eventually, yeah, or at least most of it. But that's a rather recent development.
That’s actually a good question
*Oathbringer* spoilers: >!remember that Interlude with Kaza on Aimiah? How the Sleepless refused to tell her anything because even in death she could be made to tell their secrets? I think they were talking about the Night Brigade.!<
ohhh i literally read that recently and yeah, you might be right. Maybe not specifically the Night Brigade yet, but something like it. The kinds of powers of the Cosmere that know what a Dawnshard is and want one will have the kind of tools and ressources to get information out of the dead if they can get them. A dragon, Ire, those types of forces. Scary shit. Poor Kaza
This is outright stated in TSM that the Night Brigade would kill Nomad in order to force the secret from him.
They don’t need to force anything from him. The point was that by having held a dawnshard, his spirit was warped by it and can be used to point to the current holder of the dawnshard, dead or alive.
True. Forgot about that.
The Night Brigade are also explicitly necromancers and Hemalurgists and able to compel at least Threnodite shades and possibly exert influence over other Cognitive Shadows.
I wonder if the Canticle "Sun" could have been intense enough to solve that problem. We don't know what the Device is doing in the Cognitive Realm, but we do know that the people of Canticle don't create Shades if they go through the Sun. If that weren't enough, I suspect that if his Cognitive Shadow were to make it back into the Physical Realm, a second trip through the Sunwall would obliterate the problem.
The problem there may be that of the creation of a sunheart, which may be able to be used by the Night Brigade
But those aren’t created from outsiders right? Or am I misremembering something
They’re really weak and crappy iirc. I believe there was a rosharan sun heart shown by the cinder king
Oh yeah. I totally forgot about that one.
TLR decided to go the Beyond so Nomad could do the same. As to how to kill him... well, that's gonna be hard, but I guess that anti-Investiture should work
Have we seen anyone get denied access to the Beyond? Seems like no matter the investiture level, once you’re willing to go, you go
I dont think so. We've even seen Ati and Leras go to the beyond
No doubt a Vessel is more invested than a part time wielder of a dawnshard
Oh true. That makes me wonder. Could any cognitive shadow or even a shard just at any time go into the beyond?
As far as I know Cognitive Shadows can just decide to go to the Beyond whenever they like.
Yeah, most of the formerly heavily invested seem to go this route, especially the former shard bearers
Ah. True. I forgot about that.
I thought if he died the Night Brigade would just chase whoever had the Dawnshard before him. If he is alive they can only sense him. If he dies the connection their chasing would show whoever bore it previously. That was my interpretation.
Interesting interpretation. Do you have a quote / source? I'd be interested to consider this more in depth.
Chapter 1: >...would it be far enough away to hide from the Night Brigade? Of course it wouldn't be. No place could hide him from them. He had to keep moving. Had to... And: >*Uh, Nomad,* Aux said in his monotone voice. I *get the feeling that trying to absorb and use Investiture from that is going to be like trying to pick out a snowflake from an avalanche. I... dont think we should let it hit you.* >"It will kill me if it does..." Nomad whispered. >*Is that... what you want?* >No. Chapter 27: >"The Night Bridgade commands armies of the dead," he said. "They're largely a mercenary force, known for their brutal efficiency. They're the only army I know that makes you keep on fighting after you've died..." Chapter 28: >Nomad had mistakenly assumed that they wouldn't be interested in him because he no longer held the Dawnshard...He'd soon learned that, with their twisted arts. they could kill him and fashion a spike from his soul that would lead them to the person he had given the Dawnshard. To them, Nomad was a crucial link in a very important chain. And he was far more useful dead than alive. Epilogue: >But as he left, two shades -- with glowing red eyes, bearing the uniforms they'd been wearing when they'd died-- joined him from the corners of the room. The Admiral needed no vocal command for them, and their movement meant she obviously wanted to be alone. Not even accompanied by the dead. I guess to make a hemalurgic spike he would need to be a fresh kill. They have control over Threnody shades, which he is not, but maybe they have lifeless as well. Maybe suicide or death would be ok. It appears he just doesn't want to die. So I think I'm wrong but we don't know enough about the situation to really know what's going on.
I don't remember specifically why, but I had the exact same takeaway as you - if Sigzil dies, whatever method they're currently using to track him *currently* would instead work on the next person down the chain. So he can't get captured (because they would just use hemalurgy), and he can't die (because whatever method they're using now would then also point next down the chain). But I don't remember why the second is true.
Oh wow! How long did it take you to find all these? I see the point. So it’s kind of even worse for him, since if he manages to get to the beyond, he would doom somebody else.
Not too long. Maybe 30 mins or so. Just using a wiki to find references to the night brigade, finding the reference in the book, figuring out if it was relevant, and transcribing it.
Nice. Still hats off :D
Didn't it say in Sunlit man that they could use his corpse to make a spike or something to find the next person in the chain of dawnshard users?
His soul to be specific. So if he would manage to get to the beyond he probably would be fine. But also would doom another person that held the Dawnshard to be hunted now.
Highly invested beings not necesarily turn into cognitive shadows. Warbreaker spoilers >!The returned are offered a second chance, but they are not forced to take it.!< Mistborn Secret History spoilers >!Kelsier also had a choice, but he found that punching Leras was a better option than going to the Beyond. Also, he was being pulled against his will and had to rush to the Well before being forced into the Beyond. Once in the Well, he found enough investiture to anchor himself. And he did it so well he can't even get out of Scadrial now.!< >!The Lord Ruler pretty much saw the Cognitive Scadrial, insulted Kelsier, and exited the chat in the biggest chad move Branderson ever wrote.!< >!Vin and Elend held shards, and they went onto the beyond nevertheless.!< >!Ati and Leras are kinda like cognitive shadows, but they probably had a foot in the Spiritual realm too.!< >!Ati wanted to stay, and Leras was pretty much mindless due to his plan, so he probably wasn't totally able to make a choice.!< Stormlight spoilers >!The Fused have a weird thing going on, but when killed with a shardblade, they don't seem to leave a cognitive shadow behind.!<
>!Fused !
There's a lot of misinformation here. >!1)The returned are not necessarily invested when they die. They are normal people who become cognitive shadows when given the divine breath. 2) Elend never held a shard. 3)TLR was not invested when he died, the power had withdrawn from him. Allomancers do not hold investiture they channel it. There is a difference. 4)The fused are already cognitive shadows, the same as the heralds.!<
You can’t have a line break between beginning and ending spoiler tags. Put a set of tags in each paragraph to fix it. >!Rashek was still a Sliver and could have resisted the pull of the Beyond indefinitely, same as Kelsier.!<
Appreciate the heads up! Been a while since I read AU but I thought when the power left him he was just a normal full born, so still crazy powerful and left with insights from the power but no longer being actively influenced by it
From Coppermind- > [no particular plot points, Sliver mechanics] >!Despite having released the power they once held, a Sliver is still noticeably more Invested than the average person,[11] which likely contributes to some of their other traits. Most notably, Slivers can resist the pull of the Beyond indefinitely and choose to instead remain in the cosmere as a Cognitive Shadow if they wish.[12][13] Beyond that, they are also more capable of influencing the Physical Realm from the Cognitive and are more resistant to the influence and control of a Shard.!<
Yeah, holding that kind of power, even temporarily, permanently alters your soul
>!TLR was invested though. He was a Sliver. I believe Preservation even says it outright. Also I believe that Allomancers are invested more than a normal person, i think its mentioned in Secret History!<
>!Yerp! We've addressed the sliver thing, i was mistaken when i thougt all power left him. you're right. allomancers and Skaa both have more inate investiture than a nonscadrian human due to them containing a dash of preservation. I wasn't trying to say they are completely uninvested. I just meant that when they perform allomancy, they are not holding investiture within themselves the same way a radient does.!<
>!I think that is only kind of true, while burning metals, the investiture is inside of them until used. Depending on the amount of metals being burned, they probably have as much investiture in them as a radiant, if not close. It doesn't quite act the same way because the metal is the "key" to a "door" in the Spiritual realm that allows access to a very certain type of investiture, i.e. the specific use of allomancy. I do find it ironic that none of the Allomantic metals heal. Very odd for them to not preserve. Also interesting that Allomancy is is so "keyed" but stormlight isn't. Like i am unsure if Vasher being an allomancer could keep him alive like breathing Stormlight does or having access to purified Dor would presumably. !<
I dont get your point. Almost all you mention are cognitive shadows?
Cognitive shadows that CHOSE to turn into one, and some of them had to do quite a bit of work to do so. If a highly invested being wants to die, it probably can.
kelsier can leave scadrial as of wat previews
I thought I'd read all of those, but I guess I missed this. Can you share a source?
https://www.brandonsanderson.com/prologue-to-stormlight-5/ gavilar speaks to kelsier in person on roshar.
During that encounter, Thaidakar glows blue, turns into a ball of light with a glyph at the middle, and flies out the window. I don't think that's in person. I think that's a Seon.
Kelsier wasnt there in person. He is specifically looking for a way to leave Scadrial. Mraize says as much. It seemed like Kelsier was speaking through a seon or something similar but more advanced
Life before death
I thought the reason he doesnt kill himself is because the method of tracking the dawnshard identifies the most recent holder. If Sigzil no longer is alive, there is the chance the method will find the previous holder* Edit: Holder Sigzil has pass it onto
I pretty sure he says that if they manage to kill him it’ll make it easier to track the current holder of the dawnshard.
My bad. You are correct.
That’s true. But wasn’t that because they would use his soul for a spike? So if he managed to get to the beyond it should be fine right?
His best bet would be nightblood if this is what he wanted.
True. Just get devoured entirely
Vin was a straight up Vessel and went to the Beyond in less than ten seconds. It seems to be a choice thing.
True. I kind of forgot about that.
Correction (I think): He *would* be drawn in the Beyond, *and* leave a cognitive shadow.
It's vague, and I don't think BS intends to give a clear answer. Is the shadow you, or is it investiture pretending to be you? Up to interpretation at the moment
That’s an interesting thought. It like the teleporter problem. If you are teleported by being deconstructed and rebuild, are you still you? I would love to see some of the in universe philosophers discussing this. Especially Ham
We get a little bit from Zahel in RoW when he talks about being "fossilized" bit by bit. I'd have to reread the page to remember exactly
What book is all this from? Read SA and unfamiliar with it...
From “The Sunlit Man” as the tag says. ;) The newest book. (I think) If you don’t want to get spoilers I would suggest not reading posts with tags from book you haven’t read.
Isn't sigzil just one of the bridge 4 radiants? What the heck am I missing? Is this from other books or WOBs?
The guy in Sunlit Man is Sigzil, in the future. Hoid gives him a Dawnshard and it fucks him up a bit, I guess
It’s from “The Sunlit Man”. The (I think) newest book. Heavy spoilers if you aren’t up to date with everything else.