I know absolutely nothing about him, but I already admire Dillon Pennington for his fairy tale-esque name. The sort of name you’d give to a young lad who’d sell his soul for a bag of magic beans, then get squashed by a giant for not respecting his elders enough.
Outstanding name.
As an aside - I was born in a small town in Tamil Nadu where the main attraction (at least to me - there is also a very famous temple) was a surprisingly well-stocked library (I'm talking 100k+ books) called Pennington Library. Have great childhood memories of spending summer holiday afternoons there.
If you take Anderson out of this, which he obviously will be after the first Test, it's one of the greenest bowling attacks I can remember England having. You'd assume Wood will take Anderson's spot in the next Test but it does show how the likes of Robinson haven't kicked on anywhere near as much as they should have.
I think it’s partly a consequence of Jimmy and Broad being so good for so long. That generation of fast bowlers in their theoretical prime (late 20s/early 30s) have hardly played Tests because there’s only ever 1 spot free at most.
Robinson, Archer, the Overtons and so on should be ready to take over the frontline but aren’t so we almost have to skip over them.
Luckily, being a fast bowler in England isn’t especially challenging but overseas I think we are going to struggle.
It gives the impression the pitches are going to be flat and similar to the ones that made Jimmy ineffective in the Ashes, at request of Baz and Stokes. Which imo is probably why Jimmy is being retired in the first place.
Woakes aside, the rest are all pretty quick and hit the pitch. Like you, expecting Wood to come in as well to be another of that ilk. In years gone by, no doubt the pitch would be something suited to the likes of Robbo and other county trundlers and it’d probably look far less green.
This is the squad for the first two tests apparently (minus Anderson). Woakes is really gonna have to do a lot of heavy lifting when it comes to experience.
For me this is why it's bonkers to not select Leach, especially considering the improvement in his batting. I'd have also gone for Hartley over Bashir based on his tour
This bowling line up needs somebody who can offer control from the other end to allow them to grow into the game
I would expect Potts to take Andersons place, in the team, with them then having one quicker bowler in Wood/Atkinson/Pennington.
Cook seems likely to rotate in for Potts or Woakes at some point when he's back fit
Again this 'kicked on' nonsense. Robinson has comprehensively outperformed Broad and Anderson since coming into the team, if you compare the starts of their careers it's a joke how much better he's done.
Robinson after 20 tests: 76 wickets @22.92
Anderson after 20 tests: 62 wickets @39.20
Broad after 20 tests: 52 wickets @40.21
Since his debut they average 27 and 27.5 in this period to his 23. He also has a better strike rate.
I agree on pure numbers Robinson has been hard done by, but the bloke has had attitude concerns dog him his entire career. There's clearly a bigger off the pitch aspect to it.
I get that. But sometimes elite sportspeople are arseholes, at what point do you select personalities over performances. Hales was much worse but we recalled him to win a world cup. Pietersen got 104 tests, think of the misery if we dropped him after 20
I also get your point entirely, we can't just select the nicest blokes.
However what I would say is that Pietersen was the kind of exceptional talent you're more likely to make allowances for. Robbo is good, very good at times, but he's not Pietersen. The concerns with him weren't about his work ethic and fitness in the same way, and he was also pretty ruthlessly jettisoned in the end anyway.
Basically I think his ratio of talent to dickheadery isn't quite good enough. But that doesn't mean he's not talented.
The difference in sample sizes is impossible to compare but Robinson is further ahead of his contemporaries than Pietersen was, especially with Broad and Anderson gone. He's nowhere near as eyecatching a talent but I think that's more down to aesthetic/speed/batsman's game biases than anything else
Additionally I think work ethic/fitness issues only become relevant when performances suffer, while Pietersen's issues were always relevant because of their impact on the team. But this is subjective. I did also think Pietersen was dropped too early
I'm happy to say I don't know enough about off-field issues to judge that ratio, it's more the 'he hasn't kicked on' narrative I find unbelievable
Since coming into the team isn't the way to judge a player over kicking on, though. He had an excellent start to his career but has clearly gone off the boil in the last year to 18 months.
By gone off the boil you mean he averaged 30 across only 5 tests in 2023 carrying injuries compared to 18 and 21 the years before. So still much better than our two best ever seamers across their first Robinson-career-length stint. Do you really think his returns don't warrant an extended spot in the team?
When there have been multiple reports that staff have been concerned about his attitude and fitness, I don't think he's in the best position to lead our attack, no.
Sad to see Foakes is out but very excited to see how Smith goes. Can only assume if Bashir is England's number one choice he will be off to another county at the end of the season (probably Surrey I assume? Since they don't have many options there and he is from Surrey).
And as much as I'm OK with dropping Bairstow, I'll definitely miss that weird fuck being in the team. What he often lacks in impact or runs, he makes up for tenfold in doing stupid and hilarious things, like going on a stroll in the middle of the match and inciting a gammon riot.
I hope I'm wrong but rather than Surrey, I think Bashir more likely to follow the 'England spinner man of the moment' route of the last 25 or so years and end up somewhere like Derbyshire or Northants. Schofield, Dawson (the Yorkshire one), Kerrigan, Matt Parkinson, Bess, Rehan Ahmed seems to be in the wilderness now a bit. I'm sure there are others that aren't springing to mind right now....
I think Ahmed still has some leeway. Rashid will retire soon and Ahmed is probably the front runner to replace him in the white ball side (as far as I know, not always up to date with the domestic scene). White ball success, batting ability and youth are all on his side.
Ahmed bowls too short, and isn't smart enough or turning it enough to offset his height. I like him as a player and he's still young, but he isn't test quality. Hartley and Bash should be the investments.
He's not just young, he's 19. I feel like he got very overexposed and hyped up after the Pakistan series, especially with that clip that went round for Warney heaping praise on him at the age of 13, but he still has a long way to go before he's a finished product, and that's completely unsurprising.
As Warney points out in that video though, he's got a decent action that I think once he refines himself a bit more will serve him well. I just don't he's there yet but I definitely think we will see more of him in the future.
Edit: 13, not 15
Yeah some of the responses earlier in the thread are a bit dramatic, he's obviously still extremely raw and not test-class yet but he did well on the West Indies tour and will be a good white-ball investment to replace Rashid when he retires. Plus, most importantly of all, he's literally still a teenager: give him time.
Based on what? Ahmed bowled half trackers which served up catches to a weak Pakistan batting lineup. Bash took a five fer with less than 10 FC matches, in the back yard of the world's strongest test team and the best players of spin. You're chatting pudding mate.
Moriarty was good for Surrey, Virdi has been decent when played but their problem has been that we just don’t need them. The 4-5 seam bowlers we pick are a mix of very good and world class players, we get by on part time spin. Dan Lawrence and Cam Steel have been excellent at that this year, we’ve been winning that way for a while so why change.
We let Bashir go in the first place and he does not fit into our current mould as far as the squad goes. Unless his batting improves out of nowhere....
It still baffles me how Gareth Batty, a spinner, is so anti-spin in his coaching methods. He's already cost Surrey one of the brightest cross-format spin talents in Moriarty and he seems set on forcing Virdi to move if he wants game time.
I mean you can't argue with the success of Surrey's pace attack and guys like Steel and the Milfhunter are backing them up but fuck me dead it defies logic how a former spin bowler hates spinners so much
Just shows the reality of how little value spinners add at County level. Until that changes its going to be difficult to see how England reliably produce test ones.
Agreed. If there's one thing the Sheffield Shield gets right it's that throughout the season there's enough in surfaces for spinners that unless it's an absolute green top you'll almost always see teams play a spinner.
I really don't see how you have an environment conducive to nurturing young spinners when most County sides are happy with a bunch of part-timers putting in the spin overs
English spin is a bit like South African spin in that relied on particular conditions that don’t exist anymore. Traditional English spin became a lost art with the beginning of the covered wicket era, and especially now with the CC schedule and long, wet winters and damp summers being less conducive to creating spinning conditions.
But I also think that both counties and England are guilty of showing insufficient faith in spinners, and even spin bowling all-rounders seem to often be dispensed with quite quickly when their form dips. I look at Josh de Caires for Middlesex, who after his breakout season with the ball in 2023, had a difficult start to 2024 and has struggled to get back into our CC first XI after an injury layoff when if anything his talent needs to be nurtured and for the club to show some confidence in him. I wonder if the goal here with Bashir is to persist with a young spinner who’s shown a bit of promise rather than drop him again and leave him to drift.
Definitely some interesting points raised in your post but worth noting that Josh de Caires has lost his place to Luke Hollman who is more of a natural aggressive 8 and definitely a better bowler. I know he’s had some good days with the ball but his future is clearly as a top 6 batter
Well, I'm not sure Hollman *is* a better bowler with the red ball, although neither is anywhere near the finished product.
I suppose I just think it's a bit of a waste, because he was one of the few things that excited me as a Middlesex supporter last season. And it's not just Middlesex, he began the season in relative obscurity and ended it being called up by the Lions, who then proceeded to *not* bowl him in the match he played, and now he's struggling to get into his county's firsts. Even if his 2023 was characterised by two big hauls, I think that's something you want to harness in the hope that it becomes more.
Hollman has a higher ceiling imo but more to the point of this thread, de Caires has been dropped for a player who’s more of a bowler not less.
Taking off my Middlesex hat for a second I could really see Hollman competing with Rehan Ahmed as England’s all format leggie, whereas de Caires probably has a ceiling as a guy who averages 30 with the bat and 35 with the ball. (He’s currently at 23 and 40). Don’t think he’ll ever play for England.
Good to see them both playing in the game this week with de Caires at 6!
You’ve inadvertently touched upon one of the biggest long-term problems that ail English cricket in terms of success on the international stage. Australia’s Sheffield Shield and India’s Ranji Trophy exist, first and foremost, to provide a pool of FC cricketers from which promising players can progress either directly to the Test squad or through “A” (your “Lions”) tours. This is not so in England. In England, the County Championship and the county cricket setup is the raison d’être of the CCCs and the decisions made either by the clubs or the ECB are, first and foremost, to protect the clubs and the county circuit. It might be romantic, a vestige of simpler times (I do love going down to Chester-le-Street to watch Durham on Saturdays!) but English cricket is out of step with its peers in behaving like it’s the 1950s, rather than the 2020s, and shying away from a mindset in favour of making brave yet sensible decisions that would improve the national team.
Neglecting spin, having a bazillion counties, not playing FC cricket of at least some sort at the peak pf summer, having overseas internationals playing in the Championship, plus the usual stuff like Eton v Harrow and having fuckall support for cricket in state schools (both of which are obviously classist as well) are all symptoms of this in my opinion.
I think there's a few criticisms there that are totally wide of the mark. I mean, what "brave yet sensible decisions" would you make?
There's not "a bazillion" county clubs, there's the same number there was when England were a dominant test side. It's quite important that they continue to exist because that's who owns most of the first class playing and training infrastructure, and they're closely linked (or in some cases one and the same) with the county boards who govern grass roots cricket. The number of county clubs is not the problem, nor is the presence of overseas players. Eton vs. Harrow is indicative of the MCC membership's attitudes, but it's something of an irrelevance here; the school thing is complex, and frankly bigger than just cricket.
I agree I went a little overboard (yeah, the two public schools v state schools examples of mine are a reach) when it comes to some of my examples. I still do think that too many of the counties in the Championship don’t belong there, whether that be due to the facilities or geographic reach or historical relevance, and should be minor counties. Are the likes of Worcs, Northants, Somerset, Kent or Leics really integral to the health of English cricket? I don’t agree with silly calls from the likes of Kevin Pietersen to “franchise” FC cricket in England - such nonsense! - but at the very least some sort of overarching amalgamation where grassroots cricket is brought under the control of the ECB and divvied up based on the [regions](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England) seems like a base minimum to me. I’m sorry but I also firmly disagree when it comes to internationals in the Championship, it just smacks of the counties looking after themselves rather than being singularly focussed on helping the England team the way Australia’s and India’s domestic setups are. If it seems like I’m obsessed with comparing English domestic cricket to Australia and India, perhaps it is natural for me as an Indian-Australian expat in England to do so but I’m also comparing it to the “best in class”, which is what the ECB should aim to be.
At some point we had to build for the future though. There’s been only one fast place left in the team for the past 15 years given Broad & Anderson’s longevity.
Now is definitely the time to bring in those with the potential but who are only at the relative start of their careers, there’s no real point trying to ‘bring back’ an Overton or Robinson as they’ve been given chances but never kicked on, even with the likes of Jimmy and Broad to learn from.
>Robinson as they’ve been given chances but never kicked on, even with the likes of Jimmy and Broad to learn from.
Robinson after 20 tests: 76 wickets @22.92
Anderson after 20 tests: 62 wickets @39.20
Broad after 20 tests: 52 wickets @40.21
Since his debut he's comprehensively outperformed them, they average 27 and 27.5 in this period to his 23. He also has a better strike rate.
What does kicked on even mean in this context
Oh I definitely think we need to build for the future, but there will be teething issues for a while. It’s much more difficult I think to bring in a new bowling attack, compared to bringing in new batters.
I think we have good younger bowlers who have just been injured. Tongue, Archer and Stone all seem to be really good at this level. But it’s just gonna be finding that reliable bowler unit who look a threat and can do it for us consistently
Ben Stokes (Durham) Captain
James Anderson (Lancashire) (First Test only)
Gus Atkinson (Surrey)
Shoaib Bashir (Somerset)
Harry Brook (Yorkshire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire)
Dan Lawrence (Surrey)
Dillon Pennington (Nottinghamshire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Matthew Potts (Durham)
Joe Root (Yorkshire)
Jamie Smith (Surrey)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)
I wonder if one of those debutants go on to play for some 15 years, they could say that I've played with James Anderson who also has played with alec Stewart which then would feel so odd lol.
Unless Lawrence is competition for Bashir he's more than likely taking on his perennial England role of batting cover, drinks carrier and driving back to his county ground for a T20.
I agree we're banking on Bashir too early, but if you take the not unreasonable view Leach is too unreliable fitness wise, what else have we got? Lawrence with some part timers is basically the next up.
Leach's fitness is an issue, but play him when he's fit. Then have Dawson as a stop gap. It's not difficult, if they were fast bowlers there wouldn't be any debate
Everyone's obsessed with the idea that players should be long-term solutions, rather than just picking the best available players. (Obviously there is some merit in that line of think if there are players operating at the same level, but not in this case)
It's really disruptive go a squad to have a bloke who is always getting injured and having to change plans and I don't think Leach is good enough to justify that.
Dawson is severely over rated by County fans and clearly burnt his bridge anyway.
There are no good options, may as well back one you think may come good.
As I said, if he was a fast bowler, there wouldn't be this debate
No-one's suggesting Dawson will dominate test cricket, but he'll be a hell of a lot better than someone who averages 70 with the ball.
Bashir isn't going to come good if we give him no time and space to actually develop. Chucking him in early (outside of favourable conditions) is more likely to turn him into another Dom Bess, Simon Kerrigan, or Mason Crane
>As I said, if he was a fast bowler, there wouldn't be this debate
We'd certainly never pick fast bowlers for youth and potential at test level over proven county records, which is why Jamie Porter is due for his 50th test cap and no one knows who Gus Atkinson is.
If you refused to pick genuine quicks with injury records you'd never pick a genuine quick. The same isn't true of spinners. The ability to be a reliable workhorse is an essential part of being a SENA spinner. You can't manage a spinners workload for injury concerns like you can a Mark Wood.
If Bashir was actually competent at that then the discussion changes, but he isn't (even then I would still think not picking out only proven test level spinner because he might get injured is stupid)
The best part about the Milfhunter joke is nobody knows how it started but we can all agree Dan Lawrence will definitely pipe your mum if he got the chance
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cricket/s/oDSRUAvHDK here you go. Mods need to take a screenshot and hang it in Tate Modern/MCC museum
Edit: it was shagger at that point. We need someone to trace the transition to Hunter.
I know it was expected, but can't work out Robinson not getting in the squad after scoring 700+ runs @80 while Smith has scored 200 less and doesn't keep for Surrey.
I'm surprised by Ollie Robinsons omission but I do think there's an argument to be made his stats are a bit flattering and he's played on some absolute roads this year
IIRC Smith was given the winter off lions duty to play t20 in various leagues. In hindsight feels like an indication that they see him as having a high all formats ceiling
I'm hyped for this. Hopefully the batting can have a big summer. I'm glad they're moving on from Bairstow fantastic on his day but I'd rather have Brook in there at 5. I've seen the Windies squad and it apparently looks a bit light on batting so hopefully we can go back to the first summer under McCullum.
It does feel like a bit of a reaction to some of the "boys club" accusations. Come on the big summer!
With the bowling one, probably excessive recent delivery and consumption of pies.
Jokes aside, I seem to remember there being some murmurs that he was on last knockings in India over his attitude and fitness.
Were the murmurs based on things anyone from the camp had actually said, or people on here? Because what McCullum had to say about Robinson and his fitness/preparation at the time was
>Everything he did leading into the Test match suggested we'd see not just the Ollie Robinson we'd seen previously but a better version of it.
>"For one reason or another it didn't quite work out for him and obviously he's not just as disappointed as everyone else, he's the most disappointed out of everyone. Our job is to make sure we get around him and make sure we give him as much support and confidence to be able to go again when the next time arises
Almost the exact opposite of those murmurs
No, there were a few reports in the press that the management were concerned about his focus and that he seemed more interested in podcasting with his girlfriend, also that he had been quite indiscreet on said podcast, talking about the visa issues and bragging about travelling on private jets. I think there was a Will MacPherson article as well suggesting that he was on quite thin ice and that people in the England camp had the feeling that he couldn’t really be arsed.
It's hard to take anything in the press seriously when they just obviously fucking hate him. Like he was actively blamed for the loss in the test he played in in India despite the fact that he only bowled 13 overs in the test (because it was a wicket with almost nothing in it for the seamers after the first session of day 1), and despite the fact that he outscored Duckett, Pope, and Stokes **combined** with the bat. Obviously there's a reason he's not in the squad, but if it is the fitness/preparation thing, it's bizarre that McCullum would go into such detail explicitly explaining that's not the issue
I do think his ability is unfairly criticised a lot, and that it’s more because of his abrasive personality than any lack of competence.
That being said, I also don’t *disbelieve* the reports about his attitude, he’s someone with a history of documented disciplinary issues and the offending podcast episode ended up being taken down, which would lend some credence to the reports of him being spanked by the management. I don’t take them as gospel, but neither would I totally dismiss them.
It's absolute bullshit. I hated that Robinson was made the scapegoat for the loss, I remember seeing the news the next day and was shocked at the headlines.
I'm not sure if it's because he has a dodgy past, but he's always the first target. He's an incredible player, we can't afford to lose him.
Considering one of them got smashed for 42 runs in an over by a batter from Leicestershire, you can understand why Blob Key would wanna keep his distance.
That was one bad over, he’s had a decent season otherwise averaging 27 with 21 wickets. Not to mention he averages 23 in Tests and with Jimmy retiring, I’m surprised he’s not been selected.
All that I've seen around it is an attitude problem. Articles in the Telegraph from the beginning of the year talking about him "letting down the coaches".
Class player and should really be leading this attack so you have to think there's something behind it. Also he never looks fully fit.
Honestly this squad seems more like an audition for the bowlers to mark the spot as their own , rather than the actual playing XI they would have taken on an important test .
His average is around 80
Jimmy tends to top out about 85
No-one else in the CC moves the ball like Cook. Will be criminal if he isn't the Sri Lanka squad
Woakes who averages 22 in England, Potts who ransacked NZ on his debut series, Pennington 2nd domestically on wickets only to Jamie Porter on some very batting friendly CC pitches, Atkinson bowling thunderbolts, and Bash who took 5fers in India? Think you're being a bit negative champ.
Potts has struggled a bit with the step up to Div One and leading Durham's attack this year. Not that that's a negative but he seems to be taking a while to get going this season and now he's not ambushing anyone might not be the potent weapon again straight away
Yeah fair. Sam Cook will hopefully get a shot later in the summer. Meanwhile Liam Dawson with more wickets and at a better average than Nathan fucking Lyon continues to be a full time ghost as far as Rob Key is concerned.
As the Smith thing was known I think the interesting things to note are that Bashir is the spinner, not Hartley or Leach, and Lawrence is the spare bat. Assume Woakes is a pretty safe pick which means it’s Jimmy for Lords and one of the others, then two of Pennington, Potts and Atkinson for the second test. Possibly Sam Cook coming in for Jimmy afterwards?
Hartley cant get a game for Lancs. Both Lyon & weirdly Chris Green - not a noted fc spinner though coning off a handy shield season are playing ahead of him
Chris Greens first CC game was today, once Harts comes back he’ll probably slot back in. I don’t think CA will allow Lyon to play many more CC games either
I mean Jamie Smith hit the fastest ever Lions tonne (71 balls) only last year.
I expect Smith will be Rooty's long term replacement at 4, and Ollie Robinson WK.
He did. Guess I missed that. And yeah, your scenario about him being the long term Root replacement is plausible. It'll be entertaining to watch either way.
Think with Leach it's a fitness issue. Only so many times a guy can pick up series ending issues before you start to doubt his reliability.
I'm not really convinced Bashir is the answer but I guess we don't have many alternatives.
We do though, Dawson, Critchley and others who aren't in the best of form but average better than Bashir's 70 in both seasons he's played in the Championship. It seems we've gone away from having all-rounders as spinners to now having tailenders even if they're inferior options (my theory is that being capable batters is now damaging their reputations as spinners as opposed to the pure bowlers)
Writing was on the wall for Dawson when he didn't get a call up for India, he's also clearly not the future. I really don't see Critchleys FC bowling average of 39 as screaming test quality. If you go down the part time spinner route frankly Lawrence will do.
It's ultimately a pretty empty cupboard and picking Bashir for the future is arguably a more sensible move long term than scratching around at middling all rounders.1
Critchley's bowling average is interesting tbh as he took time to find his rhythm with Derbyshire and then lost consistency but since joining Essex in Div 1 he has played 35 matches and taken 67 wickets at an average of 28.50 (compared to 43 in Div 2 for Derbyshire) at an economy of 3.67 which places him as one of the best English spinners now and signals massive improvement to be doing so well in Div 1. He's always been more than a part-timer but has now found that consistency which is rare in a legspinner and we should capitalise on it. Very odd he didn't get picked for the Lions in the winter when pretty much every other spinner in the country did.
Bashir imo probably wont have a county contract by the time he's 28, sad but quite common, and there's nothing to me that suggest he has much potential nor could do a better job than any part-timer such as Jacks or Lawrence, and at least they could strengthen the batting lineup. Bashir just hamstrings us in a number of ways.
I think it's pretty harsh to write off Bashir entirely already and I think you're really over rating a slightly better than part time leggie.
The reality is we've not got a test quality spinner. So your choices are scrabble around for stop gap part timers or see if there's a youngster who you think you can develop. There's not a good answer to that.
Looking at the stats I don't see anything extraordinary about Bashir, what does Liam Dawson has to do get in the squad and what is wrong with Jack Leach?
It looks like Dawson is never getting another England callup. If they weren't picking him for India after the season he had last year, it's tough to see a situation in which he would be
>what does Liam Dawson has to do
Not be 34 with a 10 year of history of mediocrity any time he's played international cricket
>what is wrong Jack Leach
Something new every week unfortunately.
> Not be 34 with a 10 year of history of mediocrity any time he's played international cricket
His international record just isn't the issue whatsoever. He's played three tests in his entire career and none since 2017. He's barely played any international white ball cricket either. He's scored nearly 2000 runs at over 40 while taking 105 wickets at 23.5 in the last two and a bit CC seasons. He would 10000% be in the XI were it not for the fact the relationship has broken down between him and the setup
It is part of the issue. He was crap the last time we wheeled him out for an ODI series and having been around the setup for a decade it's clear players and coaches just don't really rate Dawson as a bloke who can step up to the top level. County stats wont change anyones minds on that. That's the reason the relationship broke down, because he is fed up of being used as a net bowler and knows they view him as a backup.
His last ODI series (which represents half of his ODIs ever) was the one immediately after the T20WC win in 2022 when they played like they were still hungover and almost everyone was crap. That would be a mental reason not to pick him in the test side.
If ODI form was so important, what were they thinking recalling Mo in the last Ashes? His ODI form has been absolutely appalling for years.
People have been revisionist about Dawson, you're right, there was a good reason Mo was ahead of him in the red ball side for so long and that's because he never managed to bowl well enough to force his way in purely with that and when he was bowling well his batting was usually crap, and vice versa. But that's just not true any more and picking Mo over him in the Ashes was insane.
From the reporting and what he's said himself, he was approached by the camp before the India tour, he wanted assurances about playing time which he wasn't going to get with Leach and Rehan in the squad at the time, so he turned them down and whatever bridge they had was burnt. That's why he's not in the squad now.
Lot of comments about bowling looking green but Broad’s gone, Anderson is going and both Woods and Woakes at the tail end of their careers. You need to start letting the new blood have a proper go otherwise you’ll never transition.
If we end up with a bowling attack of Pennington, Atkinson, Bashir, Tongue even the Windies batting lineup will trounce us.
Honestly, this looks more like a squad we'd send to Ireland or Zimbabwe than against the Windies.
Tongue isn't even in the squad
In fairness a seam attack of Woakes, Potts and then Pennington or whoever else is not bad at all. Think you're being a bit harsh and it's obviously a squad with an eye on the future.
Atkinson has looked good in white ball outings. I know it's a bit different but the selectors are obviously looking for different types of players. Woakes is great at home and Potts has done well for England in the past so hopefully they'll be able to perform.
It makes the decision to sack Anderson look even worse by the minute. We deserve to get thrashed, such a rubbish squad. Absolutely ridiculous, who were the selectors behind this crap?
When he's amongst our very best bowlers (the Ashes looking like a blip considering he came back to some form in India) then you stick with him no matter what. There's lots of examples in the past decade of players performing into their mid 40s, and as it stands, there's not many (if any) better available for England than him.
I struggle to think when the last time a worse potential bowling attack was offered by England (that wasn’t a virtual 2nd team squad) was. Even injury crisis squads have been better.
The only thing that’s coming to mind is if we played Tom Curran, Jake Ball, Craig Overton and Mason Crane simultaneously in Australia.
*This* is the talent that needed one of the greatest ever to be forced into retirement for?
I find it mad how people seem to really think Jimmy has lots left in the tank. He's noticeably declined, really isnt getting many wickets and he's already a massive outlier for longevity.
Pennington and Potts are good players. I find this level of vitriol very strange.
Shoaib Bashir? The offspinner who averaged 67 in 6 games last season (his first one) and 76.83 in 4 games this year and who's also a genuine tailender as well? Blimey
What the fuck has Dawson does to not get in the side (or Critchley who similarly averaged 40 with the bat and 20 with the ball in Div 1 last year and 44 with the bat and 27 with the ball this and yet didn't even get picked for the Lions)
Are we English so shit against spin that we don't know what a capable spinner looks like?
Sad for Leach, I get it's maybe a fitness thing but he did bowl almost 60 overs the last innings. We've managed him well and he's batting pretty well.
Bashir does always look a bit better than the stats but he's still so fresh and needs time to develop. ECB should be asking Taunton to recreate Ciderabad to actually develop him. Wouldn't shock me if Milfhunter and Root are the spin options though
Funny they've selected Somersets 2nd spinner and Surrey's 2nd keeper but it's never as simple as best county players make best internationals
I think the only thing I genuinely hate about this squad is the words “first test only” next to Jimmy Anderson’s name…
Other than that, I still think it’s should’ve been Ollie Robinson but happy to give young Smith a chance and excited to see what Pennington or Atkinson can bring to the party.
Above all though, test match cricket is back, they could’ve picked 11 Jonny Bairstows and I wouldn’t have complained.
God, it feels rough looking at a bowling line-up without Anderson and Broad, especially without knowing whether Archer will ever play red-ball cricket again. I know we had to turn to the next generation eventually and there are some talented players there, and I'm certainly glad Potts is back in the squad, but this could easily be a long, rough transition and makes me feel even less confident in the decision to force Jimmy out.
Broadly happy with this squad - very intrigued to see how Atkinson, Pennington, and Smith get on. Think I'd have picked Robinson or Rew over Smith though - exceptionally harsh on Foakes to replace him with his own backup keeper at Surrey.
One point of contention is if they're ruthlessly dropping Foakes and Anderson to blood youngsters for the next Ashes down under, there's no reason Woakes, much as I love him, should be in the squad.
I can understand Woakes’ inclusion, he’ll be there as a safe pair of hands to lead an inexperienced attack as they blood Atkinson and Pennington.
Although I suppose you could look at that and say that they could’ve given Anderson the rest of the summer.
Das ist sehr gut.
After IPL and T20 WC - enough of T20; time for some ole tighty-whiteys.
Will miss Bairstow though. He is like that permanent colleage like presence - everyone loves him, even if he does everything except his job.
Interesting that Anderson is being retired due to not going to Australia next time whilst still being good enough in home conditions.
Woakes isn't going to Australia next time whilst still being good enough in home conditions. Interesting
We'll have to see on underestimating the Windies, but the rebuild has been needed with Broad, Anderson, Bairstow and Leach all going now is the time to start doing something. The openers are settled, still a question over Pope as he's feast or famine. But 4-6 are settled trying an attacking batter who can keep is very much what McCullum seems to want. Atkinson is high potential, from what I've seen in white ball. Potts and Woakes have played and performed in England.
Our seam bowlers obviously worry me and I hope we are prepared when India tour us and then for the away Ashes next year. Not sure why Ollie Robinson has been ignored (both of them).
Pennington is a tall quick probably on the fast end of fast-medium, he’s had a very good Championship and been tipped by journalists as the next cab off the rank for the past couple of months.
Rew is barely twenty and not very Bazball, he’ll certainly play for England but it’s very early days. Wicketkeeper Robinson *is* quite Bazball and can consider himself very unfortunate to miss out here, but England have had their eye on Smith for a while. Bowler Robinson still has question marks over his fitness and attitude. Hartley was in the World Cup squad so is likely being rested, but he’s had a difficult start to the Championship and was a pretty leftfield pick for the India tour.
It's a double mistake to leave out Bairstow.
1 - who will uphold the spirit of cricket if he's not there?
2 - the best sounding English name in a West Indian accent.
I know absolutely nothing about him, but I already admire Dillon Pennington for his fairy tale-esque name. The sort of name you’d give to a young lad who’d sell his soul for a bag of magic beans, then get squashed by a giant for not respecting his elders enough.
And he was born in the magical land of Shropshire.
How wonderful
No fucking way
Sounds very West Indian fast bowler to me
Outstanding name. As an aside - I was born in a small town in Tamil Nadu where the main attraction (at least to me - there is also a very famous temple) was a surprisingly well-stocked library (I'm talking 100k+ books) called Pennington Library. Have great childhood memories of spending summer holiday afternoons there.
Not even debuted yet and he's already got libraries named after him Someone in Tamil Nadu was a very good talent scout
Anyone know history of this library? Seems quite exciting.
If you take Anderson out of this, which he obviously will be after the first Test, it's one of the greenest bowling attacks I can remember England having. You'd assume Wood will take Anderson's spot in the next Test but it does show how the likes of Robinson haven't kicked on anywhere near as much as they should have.
I think it’s partly a consequence of Jimmy and Broad being so good for so long. That generation of fast bowlers in their theoretical prime (late 20s/early 30s) have hardly played Tests because there’s only ever 1 spot free at most. Robinson, Archer, the Overtons and so on should be ready to take over the frontline but aren’t so we almost have to skip over them. Luckily, being a fast bowler in England isn’t especially challenging but overseas I think we are going to struggle.
It gives the impression the pitches are going to be flat and similar to the ones that made Jimmy ineffective in the Ashes, at request of Baz and Stokes. Which imo is probably why Jimmy is being retired in the first place. Woakes aside, the rest are all pretty quick and hit the pitch. Like you, expecting Wood to come in as well to be another of that ilk. In years gone by, no doubt the pitch would be something suited to the likes of Robbo and other county trundlers and it’d probably look far less green.
This is the squad for the first two tests apparently (minus Anderson). Woakes is really gonna have to do a lot of heavy lifting when it comes to experience.
For me this is why it's bonkers to not select Leach, especially considering the improvement in his batting. I'd have also gone for Hartley over Bashir based on his tour This bowling line up needs somebody who can offer control from the other end to allow them to grow into the game
There's no way Leach is going back to Australia, it's all about getting Shoaib some more red ball time
Yeah Bashir was quite good in India, his height could help him get some good bounce in Australia.
I would expect Potts to take Andersons place, in the team, with them then having one quicker bowler in Wood/Atkinson/Pennington. Cook seems likely to rotate in for Potts or Woakes at some point when he's back fit
Again this 'kicked on' nonsense. Robinson has comprehensively outperformed Broad and Anderson since coming into the team, if you compare the starts of their careers it's a joke how much better he's done. Robinson after 20 tests: 76 wickets @22.92 Anderson after 20 tests: 62 wickets @39.20 Broad after 20 tests: 52 wickets @40.21 Since his debut they average 27 and 27.5 in this period to his 23. He also has a better strike rate.
I agree on pure numbers Robinson has been hard done by, but the bloke has had attitude concerns dog him his entire career. There's clearly a bigger off the pitch aspect to it.
I get that. But sometimes elite sportspeople are arseholes, at what point do you select personalities over performances. Hales was much worse but we recalled him to win a world cup. Pietersen got 104 tests, think of the misery if we dropped him after 20
I also get your point entirely, we can't just select the nicest blokes. However what I would say is that Pietersen was the kind of exceptional talent you're more likely to make allowances for. Robbo is good, very good at times, but he's not Pietersen. The concerns with him weren't about his work ethic and fitness in the same way, and he was also pretty ruthlessly jettisoned in the end anyway. Basically I think his ratio of talent to dickheadery isn't quite good enough. But that doesn't mean he's not talented.
The difference in sample sizes is impossible to compare but Robinson is further ahead of his contemporaries than Pietersen was, especially with Broad and Anderson gone. He's nowhere near as eyecatching a talent but I think that's more down to aesthetic/speed/batsman's game biases than anything else Additionally I think work ethic/fitness issues only become relevant when performances suffer, while Pietersen's issues were always relevant because of their impact on the team. But this is subjective. I did also think Pietersen was dropped too early I'm happy to say I don't know enough about off-field issues to judge that ratio, it's more the 'he hasn't kicked on' narrative I find unbelievable
Since coming into the team isn't the way to judge a player over kicking on, though. He had an excellent start to his career but has clearly gone off the boil in the last year to 18 months.
By gone off the boil you mean he averaged 30 across only 5 tests in 2023 carrying injuries compared to 18 and 21 the years before. So still much better than our two best ever seamers across their first Robinson-career-length stint. Do you really think his returns don't warrant an extended spot in the team?
When there have been multiple reports that staff have been concerned about his attitude and fitness, I don't think he's in the best position to lead our attack, no.
God forbid our best bowler has a podcast, better select players whose breakout county seasons are worse than his test career
Right, yes, it's just the existence of a podcast they're upset about, despite Anderson having one for years.
The surest way to get called up for England is to leave Worcestershire it seems.
Or sign for Surrey. Try both, if you can.
All England selectors have New Road deleted from their sat nav systems. As it is with Taunton!
The more scenic your home ground is, the less likely you are to play for England.
Tbf new road was underwater for a while
Or to batter them
Surprised that Bashir's been given the nod to be the main test spinner. Guess they really like that High Release Point™
Can’t we just take Sophie Ecclestone to play for the lads??
God I hope they pick him in Australia
Sad to see Foakes is out but very excited to see how Smith goes. Can only assume if Bashir is England's number one choice he will be off to another county at the end of the season (probably Surrey I assume? Since they don't have many options there and he is from Surrey). And as much as I'm OK with dropping Bairstow, I'll definitely miss that weird fuck being in the team. What he often lacks in impact or runs, he makes up for tenfold in doing stupid and hilarious things, like going on a stroll in the middle of the match and inciting a gammon riot.
I hope I'm wrong but rather than Surrey, I think Bashir more likely to follow the 'England spinner man of the moment' route of the last 25 or so years and end up somewhere like Derbyshire or Northants. Schofield, Dawson (the Yorkshire one), Kerrigan, Matt Parkinson, Bess, Rehan Ahmed seems to be in the wilderness now a bit. I'm sure there are others that aren't springing to mind right now....
I think Ahmed still has some leeway. Rashid will retire soon and Ahmed is probably the front runner to replace him in the white ball side (as far as I know, not always up to date with the domestic scene). White ball success, batting ability and youth are all on his side.
Ahmed bowls too short, and isn't smart enough or turning it enough to offset his height. I like him as a player and he's still young, but he isn't test quality. Hartley and Bash should be the investments.
He's not just young, he's 19. I feel like he got very overexposed and hyped up after the Pakistan series, especially with that clip that went round for Warney heaping praise on him at the age of 13, but he still has a long way to go before he's a finished product, and that's completely unsurprising. As Warney points out in that video though, he's got a decent action that I think once he refines himself a bit more will serve him well. I just don't he's there yet but I definitely think we will see more of him in the future. Edit: 13, not 15
Yeah some of the responses earlier in the thread are a bit dramatic, he's obviously still extremely raw and not test-class yet but he did well on the West Indies tour and will be a good white-ball investment to replace Rashid when he retires. Plus, most importantly of all, he's literally still a teenager: give him time.
Rehan is better than both of them...
Based on what? Ahmed bowled half trackers which served up catches to a weak Pakistan batting lineup. Bash took a five fer with less than 10 FC matches, in the back yard of the world's strongest test team and the best players of spin. You're chatting pudding mate.
Hartley has overtaken Ahmed in all formats in the minds of the England selectors, and England are better for it.
I'd like to see Ahmed do some long stints in the country game and score some runs.
Tom Hartley done dirty, deserved to play
Whatever happened to Virdi? Moriarty is fine with Yorkshire right now.
He was unfit for ages and is also a proper number 11 with the bat and pretty poor in the field
Moriarty was good for Surrey, Virdi has been decent when played but their problem has been that we just don’t need them. The 4-5 seam bowlers we pick are a mix of very good and world class players, we get by on part time spin. Dan Lawrence and Cam Steel have been excellent at that this year, we’ve been winning that way for a while so why change.
Virdi seems to be playing for Worcs today. Is Bashir rested?
Oh yeah, Virdi! Literally just vanished.
Playing today
I'm glad he's OK.
We let Bashir go in the first place and he does not fit into our current mould as far as the squad goes. Unless his batting improves out of nowhere....
Gareth Batty will refuse to play actual spinners even if it kills him.
It still baffles me how Gareth Batty, a spinner, is so anti-spin in his coaching methods. He's already cost Surrey one of the brightest cross-format spin talents in Moriarty and he seems set on forcing Virdi to move if he wants game time. I mean you can't argue with the success of Surrey's pace attack and guys like Steel and the Milfhunter are backing them up but fuck me dead it defies logic how a former spin bowler hates spinners so much
Just shows the reality of how little value spinners add at County level. Until that changes its going to be difficult to see how England reliably produce test ones.
Agreed. If there's one thing the Sheffield Shield gets right it's that throughout the season there's enough in surfaces for spinners that unless it's an absolute green top you'll almost always see teams play a spinner. I really don't see how you have an environment conducive to nurturing young spinners when most County sides are happy with a bunch of part-timers putting in the spin overs
English spin is a bit like South African spin in that relied on particular conditions that don’t exist anymore. Traditional English spin became a lost art with the beginning of the covered wicket era, and especially now with the CC schedule and long, wet winters and damp summers being less conducive to creating spinning conditions. But I also think that both counties and England are guilty of showing insufficient faith in spinners, and even spin bowling all-rounders seem to often be dispensed with quite quickly when their form dips. I look at Josh de Caires for Middlesex, who after his breakout season with the ball in 2023, had a difficult start to 2024 and has struggled to get back into our CC first XI after an injury layoff when if anything his talent needs to be nurtured and for the club to show some confidence in him. I wonder if the goal here with Bashir is to persist with a young spinner who’s shown a bit of promise rather than drop him again and leave him to drift.
Definitely some interesting points raised in your post but worth noting that Josh de Caires has lost his place to Luke Hollman who is more of a natural aggressive 8 and definitely a better bowler. I know he’s had some good days with the ball but his future is clearly as a top 6 batter
Well, I'm not sure Hollman *is* a better bowler with the red ball, although neither is anywhere near the finished product. I suppose I just think it's a bit of a waste, because he was one of the few things that excited me as a Middlesex supporter last season. And it's not just Middlesex, he began the season in relative obscurity and ended it being called up by the Lions, who then proceeded to *not* bowl him in the match he played, and now he's struggling to get into his county's firsts. Even if his 2023 was characterised by two big hauls, I think that's something you want to harness in the hope that it becomes more.
Hollman has a higher ceiling imo but more to the point of this thread, de Caires has been dropped for a player who’s more of a bowler not less. Taking off my Middlesex hat for a second I could really see Hollman competing with Rehan Ahmed as England’s all format leggie, whereas de Caires probably has a ceiling as a guy who averages 30 with the bat and 35 with the ball. (He’s currently at 23 and 40). Don’t think he’ll ever play for England. Good to see them both playing in the game this week with de Caires at 6!
You’ve inadvertently touched upon one of the biggest long-term problems that ail English cricket in terms of success on the international stage. Australia’s Sheffield Shield and India’s Ranji Trophy exist, first and foremost, to provide a pool of FC cricketers from which promising players can progress either directly to the Test squad or through “A” (your “Lions”) tours. This is not so in England. In England, the County Championship and the county cricket setup is the raison d’être of the CCCs and the decisions made either by the clubs or the ECB are, first and foremost, to protect the clubs and the county circuit. It might be romantic, a vestige of simpler times (I do love going down to Chester-le-Street to watch Durham on Saturdays!) but English cricket is out of step with its peers in behaving like it’s the 1950s, rather than the 2020s, and shying away from a mindset in favour of making brave yet sensible decisions that would improve the national team. Neglecting spin, having a bazillion counties, not playing FC cricket of at least some sort at the peak pf summer, having overseas internationals playing in the Championship, plus the usual stuff like Eton v Harrow and having fuckall support for cricket in state schools (both of which are obviously classist as well) are all symptoms of this in my opinion.
I think there's a few criticisms there that are totally wide of the mark. I mean, what "brave yet sensible decisions" would you make? There's not "a bazillion" county clubs, there's the same number there was when England were a dominant test side. It's quite important that they continue to exist because that's who owns most of the first class playing and training infrastructure, and they're closely linked (or in some cases one and the same) with the county boards who govern grass roots cricket. The number of county clubs is not the problem, nor is the presence of overseas players. Eton vs. Harrow is indicative of the MCC membership's attitudes, but it's something of an irrelevance here; the school thing is complex, and frankly bigger than just cricket.
I agree I went a little overboard (yeah, the two public schools v state schools examples of mine are a reach) when it comes to some of my examples. I still do think that too many of the counties in the Championship don’t belong there, whether that be due to the facilities or geographic reach or historical relevance, and should be minor counties. Are the likes of Worcs, Northants, Somerset, Kent or Leics really integral to the health of English cricket? I don’t agree with silly calls from the likes of Kevin Pietersen to “franchise” FC cricket in England - such nonsense! - but at the very least some sort of overarching amalgamation where grassroots cricket is brought under the control of the ECB and divvied up based on the [regions](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England) seems like a base minimum to me. I’m sorry but I also firmly disagree when it comes to internationals in the Championship, it just smacks of the counties looking after themselves rather than being singularly focussed on helping the England team the way Australia’s and India’s domestic setups are. If it seems like I’m obsessed with comparing English domestic cricket to Australia and India, perhaps it is natural for me as an Indian-Australian expat in England to do so but I’m also comparing it to the “best in class”, which is what the ECB should aim to be.
Milfhunter has done pretty well tbf
Dan Lawrence turning into a borderline all-rounder was not on my bingo card for this County season that's for sure
Yeah he’s been good for you. But it’s still funny.
I agree re Bairstow, a very strange man indeed. Never seemed entirely comfortable in his own skin.
Brave selection with the bowlers. England are going to be so inexperienced at test level after Jimmy goes
At some point we had to build for the future though. There’s been only one fast place left in the team for the past 15 years given Broad & Anderson’s longevity. Now is definitely the time to bring in those with the potential but who are only at the relative start of their careers, there’s no real point trying to ‘bring back’ an Overton or Robinson as they’ve been given chances but never kicked on, even with the likes of Jimmy and Broad to learn from.
>Robinson as they’ve been given chances but never kicked on, even with the likes of Jimmy and Broad to learn from. Robinson after 20 tests: 76 wickets @22.92 Anderson after 20 tests: 62 wickets @39.20 Broad after 20 tests: 52 wickets @40.21 Since his debut he's comprehensively outperformed them, they average 27 and 27.5 in this period to his 23. He also has a better strike rate. What does kicked on even mean in this context
Oh I definitely think we need to build for the future, but there will be teething issues for a while. It’s much more difficult I think to bring in a new bowling attack, compared to bringing in new batters.
Definitely, will be a big ask on the coaches and then on Stokes / Wood / Woakes in the matches to help them through this first set of tests.
I think we have good younger bowlers who have just been injured. Tongue, Archer and Stone all seem to be really good at this level. But it’s just gonna be finding that reliable bowler unit who look a threat and can do it for us consistently
Jimmy Anderson still being their best bowler showed all whats been going wrong.
Ben Stokes (Durham) Captain James Anderson (Lancashire) (First Test only) Gus Atkinson (Surrey) Shoaib Bashir (Somerset) Harry Brook (Yorkshire) Zak Crawley (Kent) Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire) Dan Lawrence (Surrey) Dillon Pennington (Nottinghamshire) Ollie Pope (Surrey) Matthew Potts (Durham) Joe Root (Yorkshire) Jamie Smith (Surrey) Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)
So England could potentially play 2 debutants in Jimmy's last match and will almost certainly play one huh
I wonder if one of those debutants go on to play for some 15 years, they could say that I've played with James Anderson who also has played with alec Stewart which then would feel so odd lol.
I love the vibes of Dan Lawrence but unless we're playing Worcestershire I really don't understand it We're also banking on Bashir way too early
Unless Lawrence is competition for Bashir he's more than likely taking on his perennial England role of batting cover, drinks carrier and driving back to his county ground for a T20.
I agree we're banking on Bashir too early, but if you take the not unreasonable view Leach is too unreliable fitness wise, what else have we got? Lawrence with some part timers is basically the next up.
Leach's fitness is an issue, but play him when he's fit. Then have Dawson as a stop gap. It's not difficult, if they were fast bowlers there wouldn't be any debate Everyone's obsessed with the idea that players should be long-term solutions, rather than just picking the best available players. (Obviously there is some merit in that line of think if there are players operating at the same level, but not in this case)
It's really disruptive go a squad to have a bloke who is always getting injured and having to change plans and I don't think Leach is good enough to justify that. Dawson is severely over rated by County fans and clearly burnt his bridge anyway. There are no good options, may as well back one you think may come good.
As I said, if he was a fast bowler, there wouldn't be this debate No-one's suggesting Dawson will dominate test cricket, but he'll be a hell of a lot better than someone who averages 70 with the ball. Bashir isn't going to come good if we give him no time and space to actually develop. Chucking him in early (outside of favourable conditions) is more likely to turn him into another Dom Bess, Simon Kerrigan, or Mason Crane
>As I said, if he was a fast bowler, there wouldn't be this debate We'd certainly never pick fast bowlers for youth and potential at test level over proven county records, which is why Jamie Porter is due for his 50th test cap and no one knows who Gus Atkinson is.
We never pick fast bowlers who have injury issues like Mark Wood, Josh Tongue, Matt Fisher, Jofra Archer, Saqib Mahmood, Jamie Overton, Olly Stone
If you refused to pick genuine quicks with injury records you'd never pick a genuine quick. The same isn't true of spinners. The ability to be a reliable workhorse is an essential part of being a SENA spinner. You can't manage a spinners workload for injury concerns like you can a Mark Wood.
If Bashir was actually competent at that then the discussion changes, but he isn't (even then I would still think not picking out only proven test level spinner because he might get injured is stupid)
Slightly off topic but what is the story behind Dan Lawrence and his penchant for milfs?
Who even knows at this point
The best part about the Milfhunter joke is nobody knows how it started but we can all agree Dan Lawrence will definitely pipe your mum if he got the chance
u/Benny4318 started it because DLaw just looks the type and it grew from there.
I’ve got some time today. I might try to find the original comment where it all traced back from
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cricket/s/oDSRUAvHDK here you go. Mods need to take a screenshot and hang it in Tate Modern/MCC museum Edit: it was shagger at that point. We need someone to trace the transition to Hunter.
Incredible scenes, doing God's work. Four years ago, Christ it seemed like just yesterday
I know I referred to him as the milf hunter general in a thread at one point but don’t think it was the original use of it.
He's from Chingford so I'm always on the lookout for him on the prowl in Walthamstow village.
It's exactly like how the Hazlewood thing started. Some guy literally just posted that meme outta nowhere and it spiralled from there.
I know it was expected, but can't work out Robinson not getting in the squad after scoring 700+ runs @80 while Smith has scored 200 less and doesn't keep for Surrey.
I'm surprised by Ollie Robinsons omission but I do think there's an argument to be made his stats are a bit flattering and he's played on some absolute roads this year
i find it odd that Jamie Smith bypassed the lions tour where Ollie was the keeper with Rew reserve.
IIRC Smith was given the winter off lions duty to play t20 in various leagues. In hindsight feels like an indication that they see him as having a high all formats ceiling
I'm hyped for this. Hopefully the batting can have a big summer. I'm glad they're moving on from Bairstow fantastic on his day but I'd rather have Brook in there at 5. I've seen the Windies squad and it apparently looks a bit light on batting so hopefully we can go back to the first summer under McCullum. It does feel like a bit of a reaction to some of the "boys club" accusations. Come on the big summer!
How’s neither of the Ollie Robinsons made it?
Selectors have a specific vendetta against people born in Kent on December 1st called Ollie Robinson.
An extremely specific Vendetta
Ones fat and does a podcast, the other doesn't play for Surrey Serious crimes
With the bowling one, probably excessive recent delivery and consumption of pies. Jokes aside, I seem to remember there being some murmurs that he was on last knockings in India over his attitude and fitness.
Were the murmurs based on things anyone from the camp had actually said, or people on here? Because what McCullum had to say about Robinson and his fitness/preparation at the time was >Everything he did leading into the Test match suggested we'd see not just the Ollie Robinson we'd seen previously but a better version of it. >"For one reason or another it didn't quite work out for him and obviously he's not just as disappointed as everyone else, he's the most disappointed out of everyone. Our job is to make sure we get around him and make sure we give him as much support and confidence to be able to go again when the next time arises Almost the exact opposite of those murmurs
No, there were a few reports in the press that the management were concerned about his focus and that he seemed more interested in podcasting with his girlfriend, also that he had been quite indiscreet on said podcast, talking about the visa issues and bragging about travelling on private jets. I think there was a Will MacPherson article as well suggesting that he was on quite thin ice and that people in the England camp had the feeling that he couldn’t really be arsed.
It's hard to take anything in the press seriously when they just obviously fucking hate him. Like he was actively blamed for the loss in the test he played in in India despite the fact that he only bowled 13 overs in the test (because it was a wicket with almost nothing in it for the seamers after the first session of day 1), and despite the fact that he outscored Duckett, Pope, and Stokes **combined** with the bat. Obviously there's a reason he's not in the squad, but if it is the fitness/preparation thing, it's bizarre that McCullum would go into such detail explicitly explaining that's not the issue
I do think his ability is unfairly criticised a lot, and that it’s more because of his abrasive personality than any lack of competence. That being said, I also don’t *disbelieve* the reports about his attitude, he’s someone with a history of documented disciplinary issues and the offending podcast episode ended up being taken down, which would lend some credence to the reports of him being spanked by the management. I don’t take them as gospel, but neither would I totally dismiss them.
It's absolute bullshit. I hated that Robinson was made the scapegoat for the loss, I remember seeing the news the next day and was shocked at the headlines. I'm not sure if it's because he has a dodgy past, but he's always the first target. He's an incredible player, we can't afford to lose him.
Considering one of them got smashed for 42 runs in an over by a batter from Leicestershire, you can understand why Blob Key would wanna keep his distance.
That was one bad over, he’s had a decent season otherwise averaging 27 with 21 wickets. Not to mention he averages 23 in Tests and with Jimmy retiring, I’m surprised he’s not been selected.
All that I've seen around it is an attitude problem. Articles in the Telegraph from the beginning of the year talking about him "letting down the coaches". Class player and should really be leading this attack so you have to think there's something behind it. Also he never looks fully fit.
Yet his match figures were 5-138 on that road, this should not be a factor
Blob Key 😷
There's two of em?
Ones a WK for Durham averaging a shit load this season in Div 1 playing aggressively. Funnily enough they also share a birthday.
As a West indies fan this squad pleases me
Honestly this squad seems more like an audition for the bowlers to mark the spot as their own , rather than the actual playing XI they would have taken on an important test .
That bowling line up looks very weak
Sam Cook would be in if not injured
Too slow.
His average is around 80 Jimmy tends to top out about 85 No-one else in the CC moves the ball like Cook. Will be criminal if he isn't the Sri Lanka squad
Feels like at this point he has to at least be given a go to see if that's actually the case
Woakes who averages 22 in England, Potts who ransacked NZ on his debut series, Pennington 2nd domestically on wickets only to Jamie Porter on some very batting friendly CC pitches, Atkinson bowling thunderbolts, and Bash who took 5fers in India? Think you're being a bit negative champ.
Potts has struggled a bit with the step up to Div One and leading Durham's attack this year. Not that that's a negative but he seems to be taking a while to get going this season and now he's not ambushing anyone might not be the potent weapon again straight away
Yeah fair. Sam Cook will hopefully get a shot later in the summer. Meanwhile Liam Dawson with more wickets and at a better average than Nathan fucking Lyon continues to be a full time ghost as far as Rob Key is concerned.
I actually think it looks quite good
As the Smith thing was known I think the interesting things to note are that Bashir is the spinner, not Hartley or Leach, and Lawrence is the spare bat. Assume Woakes is a pretty safe pick which means it’s Jimmy for Lords and one of the others, then two of Pennington, Potts and Atkinson for the second test. Possibly Sam Cook coming in for Jimmy afterwards?
Hartley cant get a game for Lancs. Both Lyon & weirdly Chris Green - not a noted fc spinner though coning off a handy shield season are playing ahead of him
Chris Greens first CC game was today, once Harts comes back he’ll probably slot back in. I don’t think CA will allow Lyon to play many more CC games either
Jamie Smith? Have I missed something? Not only that, a lot of other interesting choices in that lineup. Bashir over Leach is the one that stands out.
S*rrey mafia innit
That's true. Personally I thought Ollie Robinson(wk) would have been the next choice, especially as he was involved with the Lions.
You probably missed this thread yesterday due to all the other excitement https://www.reddit.com/r/Cricket/s/wQgwT4e3T7
I did yeah. Thanks.
I mean Jamie Smith hit the fastest ever Lions tonne (71 balls) only last year. I expect Smith will be Rooty's long term replacement at 4, and Ollie Robinson WK.
He did. Guess I missed that. And yeah, your scenario about him being the long term Root replacement is plausible. It'll be entertaining to watch either way.
Think with Leach it's a fitness issue. Only so many times a guy can pick up series ending issues before you start to doubt his reliability. I'm not really convinced Bashir is the answer but I guess we don't have many alternatives.
We do though, Dawson, Critchley and others who aren't in the best of form but average better than Bashir's 70 in both seasons he's played in the Championship. It seems we've gone away from having all-rounders as spinners to now having tailenders even if they're inferior options (my theory is that being capable batters is now damaging their reputations as spinners as opposed to the pure bowlers)
Writing was on the wall for Dawson when he didn't get a call up for India, he's also clearly not the future. I really don't see Critchleys FC bowling average of 39 as screaming test quality. If you go down the part time spinner route frankly Lawrence will do. It's ultimately a pretty empty cupboard and picking Bashir for the future is arguably a more sensible move long term than scratching around at middling all rounders.1
Critchley's bowling average is interesting tbh as he took time to find his rhythm with Derbyshire and then lost consistency but since joining Essex in Div 1 he has played 35 matches and taken 67 wickets at an average of 28.50 (compared to 43 in Div 2 for Derbyshire) at an economy of 3.67 which places him as one of the best English spinners now and signals massive improvement to be doing so well in Div 1. He's always been more than a part-timer but has now found that consistency which is rare in a legspinner and we should capitalise on it. Very odd he didn't get picked for the Lions in the winter when pretty much every other spinner in the country did. Bashir imo probably wont have a county contract by the time he's 28, sad but quite common, and there's nothing to me that suggest he has much potential nor could do a better job than any part-timer such as Jacks or Lawrence, and at least they could strengthen the batting lineup. Bashir just hamstrings us in a number of ways.
I think it's pretty harsh to write off Bashir entirely already and I think you're really over rating a slightly better than part time leggie. The reality is we've not got a test quality spinner. So your choices are scrabble around for stop gap part timers or see if there's a youngster who you think you can develop. There's not a good answer to that.
Looking at the stats I don't see anything extraordinary about Bashir, what does Liam Dawson has to do get in the squad and what is wrong with Jack Leach?
It looks like Dawson is never getting another England callup. If they weren't picking him for India after the season he had last year, it's tough to see a situation in which he would be
>what does Liam Dawson has to do Not be 34 with a 10 year of history of mediocrity any time he's played international cricket >what is wrong Jack Leach Something new every week unfortunately.
> Not be 34 with a 10 year of history of mediocrity any time he's played international cricket His international record just isn't the issue whatsoever. He's played three tests in his entire career and none since 2017. He's barely played any international white ball cricket either. He's scored nearly 2000 runs at over 40 while taking 105 wickets at 23.5 in the last two and a bit CC seasons. He would 10000% be in the XI were it not for the fact the relationship has broken down between him and the setup
It is part of the issue. He was crap the last time we wheeled him out for an ODI series and having been around the setup for a decade it's clear players and coaches just don't really rate Dawson as a bloke who can step up to the top level. County stats wont change anyones minds on that. That's the reason the relationship broke down, because he is fed up of being used as a net bowler and knows they view him as a backup.
His last ODI series (which represents half of his ODIs ever) was the one immediately after the T20WC win in 2022 when they played like they were still hungover and almost everyone was crap. That would be a mental reason not to pick him in the test side. If ODI form was so important, what were they thinking recalling Mo in the last Ashes? His ODI form has been absolutely appalling for years. People have been revisionist about Dawson, you're right, there was a good reason Mo was ahead of him in the red ball side for so long and that's because he never managed to bowl well enough to force his way in purely with that and when he was bowling well his batting was usually crap, and vice versa. But that's just not true any more and picking Mo over him in the Ashes was insane. From the reporting and what he's said himself, he was approached by the camp before the India tour, he wanted assurances about playing time which he wasn't going to get with Leach and Rehan in the squad at the time, so he turned them down and whatever bridge they had was burnt. That's why he's not in the squad now.
Lot of comments about bowling looking green but Broad’s gone, Anderson is going and both Woods and Woakes at the tail end of their careers. You need to start letting the new blood have a proper go otherwise you’ll never transition.
If we end up with a bowling attack of Pennington, Atkinson, Bashir, Tongue even the Windies batting lineup will trounce us. Honestly, this looks more like a squad we'd send to Ireland or Zimbabwe than against the Windies.
Tongue isn't even in the squad In fairness a seam attack of Woakes, Potts and then Pennington or whoever else is not bad at all. Think you're being a bit harsh and it's obviously a squad with an eye on the future.
Atkinson has looked good in white ball outings. I know it's a bit different but the selectors are obviously looking for different types of players. Woakes is great at home and Potts has done well for England in the past so hopefully they'll be able to perform.
lmao, no, the West Indies have a dreadful batting line-up.
It makes the decision to sack Anderson look even worse by the minute. We deserve to get thrashed, such a rubbish squad. Absolutely ridiculous, who were the selectors behind this crap?
We cannot rely on a declining 40 something year old forever.
When he's amongst our very best bowlers (the Ashes looking like a blip considering he came back to some form in India) then you stick with him no matter what. There's lots of examples in the past decade of players performing into their mid 40s, and as it stands, there's not many (if any) better available for England than him.
I struggle to think when the last time a worse potential bowling attack was offered by England (that wasn’t a virtual 2nd team squad) was. Even injury crisis squads have been better. The only thing that’s coming to mind is if we played Tom Curran, Jake Ball, Craig Overton and Mason Crane simultaneously in Australia. *This* is the talent that needed one of the greatest ever to be forced into retirement for?
I find it mad how people seem to really think Jimmy has lots left in the tank. He's noticeably declined, really isnt getting many wickets and he's already a massive outlier for longevity. Pennington and Potts are good players. I find this level of vitriol very strange.
Shoaib Bashir? The offspinner who averaged 67 in 6 games last season (his first one) and 76.83 in 4 games this year and who's also a genuine tailender as well? Blimey What the fuck has Dawson does to not get in the side (or Critchley who similarly averaged 40 with the bat and 20 with the ball in Div 1 last year and 44 with the bat and 27 with the ball this and yet didn't even get picked for the Lions) Are we English so shit against spin that we don't know what a capable spinner looks like?
Big Dillon supremacy.
Sad for Leach, I get it's maybe a fitness thing but he did bowl almost 60 overs the last innings. We've managed him well and he's batting pretty well. Bashir does always look a bit better than the stats but he's still so fresh and needs time to develop. ECB should be asking Taunton to recreate Ciderabad to actually develop him. Wouldn't shock me if Milfhunter and Root are the spin options though Funny they've selected Somersets 2nd spinner and Surrey's 2nd keeper but it's never as simple as best county players make best internationals
I think the only thing I genuinely hate about this squad is the words “first test only” next to Jimmy Anderson’s name… Other than that, I still think it’s should’ve been Ollie Robinson but happy to give young Smith a chance and excited to see what Pennington or Atkinson can bring to the party. Above all though, test match cricket is back, they could’ve picked 11 Jonny Bairstows and I wouldn’t have complained.
Ollie Robbedinson.
Real feeling of a transitional side now, quite exciting to see where it goes Except WK, which we just disregard
God, it feels rough looking at a bowling line-up without Anderson and Broad, especially without knowing whether Archer will ever play red-ball cricket again. I know we had to turn to the next generation eventually and there are some talented players there, and I'm certainly glad Potts is back in the squad, but this could easily be a long, rough transition and makes me feel even less confident in the decision to force Jimmy out.
MILF Hunter getting an opportunity since moving to Surrey from Essex. The Surrey Mafia's influence cannot be underestimated.
For the last time ever Anderson
How come wood left out
I can only assume workload management, he's hardly had a break since the World Cup last autumn
Broadly happy with this squad - very intrigued to see how Atkinson, Pennington, and Smith get on. Think I'd have picked Robinson or Rew over Smith though - exceptionally harsh on Foakes to replace him with his own backup keeper at Surrey. One point of contention is if they're ruthlessly dropping Foakes and Anderson to blood youngsters for the next Ashes down under, there's no reason Woakes, much as I love him, should be in the squad.
I can understand Woakes’ inclusion, he’ll be there as a safe pair of hands to lead an inexperienced attack as they blood Atkinson and Pennington. Although I suppose you could look at that and say that they could’ve given Anderson the rest of the summer.
Woakes I reckon definitely has two years of home summers left in him. And you can't replace an entire attack in one go.
I agree - but then I think you could make the same case for Anderson, who also doesn't average 50 away from home.
I don't think Anderson has two home summers left in him. His record last summer suggested he didn't really have that one left.
Das ist sehr gut. After IPL and T20 WC - enough of T20; time for some ole tighty-whiteys. Will miss Bairstow though. He is like that permanent colleage like presence - everyone loves him, even if he does everything except his job.
So Josh Tongue joins the long list of injured medium pacers. I am whelmed.
Found it bit harsh to drop Leach
Interesting that Anderson is being retired due to not going to Australia next time whilst still being good enough in home conditions. Woakes isn't going to Australia next time whilst still being good enough in home conditions. Interesting
Are the English underestimating the Windies or are they going a bit too hard on the rebuilding phase
We'll have to see on underestimating the Windies, but the rebuild has been needed with Broad, Anderson, Bairstow and Leach all going now is the time to start doing something. The openers are settled, still a question over Pope as he's feast or famine. But 4-6 are settled trying an attacking batter who can keep is very much what McCullum seems to want. Atkinson is high potential, from what I've seen in white ball. Potts and Woakes have played and performed in England.
Pretty rough looking bowling lineup but still should be enough to roll through the windies and Sri Lanka this summer
Our seam bowlers obviously worry me and I hope we are prepared when India tour us and then for the away Ashes next year. Not sure why Ollie Robinson has been ignored (both of them).
Wow new team. Lets see how bazball will go.
No Bem Foakes again? They will get him for tough tests in Aus ans Ind ans let others have fun in the meantime.
Perhaps I'm showing my ages but the sight of Tests against the West Indies will always warm my heart, followed very quickly by a shiver down my spine.
I know he’s primarily in there as a spare batter but any chance we see Dan Lawrence picked as an all rounder at 7?
Damm no jofracture or wood
Is Jamie Smith just a convoluted way of saying James Smith?
I have a question. Why isn't Jimmy Anderson playing this entire series before retiring?
How's Dillon Pennington guy and what about guys like Rew, Ollie Robinson (both ones) why weren't they picked Also what happened to HArtley
Pennington is a tall quick probably on the fast end of fast-medium, he’s had a very good Championship and been tipped by journalists as the next cab off the rank for the past couple of months. Rew is barely twenty and not very Bazball, he’ll certainly play for England but it’s very early days. Wicketkeeper Robinson *is* quite Bazball and can consider himself very unfortunate to miss out here, but England have had their eye on Smith for a while. Bowler Robinson still has question marks over his fitness and attitude. Hartley was in the World Cup squad so is likely being rested, but he’s had a difficult start to the Championship and was a pretty leftfield pick for the India tour.
Give us some spicy pitches and we’ll win this series lol.
It's a double mistake to leave out Bairstow. 1 - who will uphold the spirit of cricket if he's not there? 2 - the best sounding English name in a West Indian accent.