It’s become common on Tumblr to “drown” posts you’ve screenshotted and are responding to, usually posts you disagree with. I don’t know the origin, though it seems to be pejorative, a way of letting followers know that you disagree.
It’s also to make it clear that it’s not your words at first glance, especially if you’re cropping out usernames and such to the point where a screenshot would look like a text post.
It was helpful to me in determining the vibe of the post. With no filter, it would have looked like the second post was what was being agreed with before I could see the whole thing.
I like this, it's such a peaceful way to openly disagree
Does it "tell" the reader how to feel? Yeah I guess, BUT it's so much nicer than like a big red cross or smth
Had to point this out to my religious mother before. Told her about a few people I talk to that she dreamed as evil and said I shouldn't hang out with them. Asked her point blank "Oh like how Jesus didn't hang out with those tax collectors or prostitutes right? He only hung around those righteous Pharisees. Got it" it took her a while but she's finally realized how wrong she was to be so antagonistic to people. It's not perfect but it's a start.
Probably but my main point at the time was "Hey, calling people evil and saying I shouldn't hang out with them is not doing anyone any favors. You talk about how they should repent and change but show no mercy. Why would anyone listen when you think so little of them?"
Gotta start small before you force anyone like my mom to 180 on their world view. Easier to get them to turn around one step at a time, you know? Getting her to see people as people and deserving of dignity and love was the first step.
I don't *actually* know what he did but I'm pretty sure he sat down with them and had calm discussions. Treated them like human beings and kindly asked them to repent.
my favourite is when someone infodumps and competing posts both refute and affirm it because the answer is more nuanced than even a block of text from Tumblr.
I mean, that's better than when someone makes something up because it sounds right to them and then people regurgitate it for years afterward, like the vampire reflection thing, the "death has multiple tools" thing, the "water of the womb" thing, etc.
CuratedTumblr for better or worse is the only sub I’ve found where you can softball criticism at progressives and not have people immediately heil hitlering or going completely ballistic about you not 100% agreeing with progressives.
It's also very important, because if the only places where you're allowed to criticize progressives are right-wing spaces, then you *will* end up radicalized.
Yup. I'm not particularly progressive, but I like this sub because it gives me a different viewpoint (not to mention the fun nerd dumps) without feeling like it's a minefield.
I am very progressive, and I like this sub because it lets me vent about all the things that infuriate me about my own political views. Being a leftist *sucks*, but unfortunately it is also objectively correct.
While I too am a leftist, calling a political ideology "objectively correct" makes it sound like other people are wrong. Most of us agree on the root problems and the politics is the solution.
The thing that's wrong is the position where you don't agree that something is a problem. That's where you need to focus your attention, not on the person. Fear politics is really what's dividing everyone.
EDIT: hey, maybe look at the overall point of "hey, maybe let's try to handle the fear-mongering with some unity for a change, and open ourselves up to the fact that most of us are on the same side here" instead of "bad people bad!"
I wouldn't say these posts are complaining about "progressivism run wild!!!", they're more about criticising progressivism *not done right*. They're talking about people in progressive circles who use progressive language or support groups supported by progressivism but don't actually believe in or comprehend the underlying principles. They just swap the in-groups and out-groups and continue exactly as before.
It isn't perceived. I'm super left, and pan sexual. I'm also religious. When I tell you that I'm not really accepted anywhere online because of that, I'm not really exaggerating. I get why people feel that way, but it really fucking sucks to be ridiculed and told I must hate myself and I'm not actually queer. This shit is actually real
If it helps, I accept you. You should not hate yourself for being you, either. I'm sorry so many people can't just can't get over themselves long enough to realize the harm they do to others. I am also sorry that there isn't much I can do about it.
But, I hope knowing at least one more person accepts you as you are helps.
I mean the "progressivism run wild" stuff I've seen basically amounts to:
You shouldn't discriminate against someone because of their race
You shouldn't discriminate against someone because of their gender or sexuality
You shouldn't make sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people and then acting like the people who don't match the generalization are "one of the good ones".
So if you have issues with those types of statements criticizing hypocrisy in self proclaimed progressive spaces and think that counts as progressivism run wild posting then yes a lot of posts here are that. There's also voting stuff (oh boy election year), good tumblr nonsense, and discourse about other topics.
I feel like for the most part it succeeds to raise some nuance without being anti-progressive, “both sides”, “enlightened centrist” kind of stuff. For the most part, I find it useful.
“Paint your leftist enemies as caricatures and straw men to drive people away and into more moderate or even right wing modes of thinking.” - sometimes it’s trolls actively parodying leftists to drive people right, sometimes the insane leftist brain rot / infighting is just actually a bad take. There’s also the “take a leftist brain rot take and bring a ton of attention to it.” Middle road of right wing propaganda. Really easy when we have so much purity culture and trauma responses on the left.
Traumatized people knee jerking their way towards safety, it’s really sad. Folks need compassion not to have their trauma responses publicized, belittled, or (as is the case with straw man extremist views) parodied.
I understand where they’re coming from. They’ve been abused and traumatized, very likely for their gender/orientation, and religion was at least one of the tools used to abuse them. So they’re seeing the tool of their abusers being brought into their safe space, and they’re lashing out.
But understanding why doesn’t mean they’re right. Religious queer people deserve a place at Pride, too. Religious allies deserve a place at Pride, too. Hell, a lot of those religious folks at Pride are specifically putting themselves on the frontlines of the battle against religion-as-a-tool-of-abuse. They’re there to say, “Our God loves you, and our faith welcomes you.” Even if you personally are an atheist, I think that’s a powerful message to get, to know that people out there are willing to fight tooth and nail against the vicious abusers in their communities so that YOU can have a home with them. Do you need to move into that home? No, choose the home that best fits you. But that option should be there.
Im totally for people of any religion to be at pride, but I don’t think anyone should be evangelizing at pride. And I would be very put off and feel incredibly unwelcome if I went to pride and got preached at. If queer religious people want to celebrate their religion and their queerness with other likeminded people, that’s cool! They don’t need to be welcoming others or trying to get others to realize their religion isn’t homophobic. Time and place. It becomes something of a no true scotsman argument. “Well, I say no TRUE Christian would be hateful” , or something similar.
I mean, it's moreso the Evangelising that's the issue here, and I'm not a fan of Evangelising or people being preachy in any context, not specifically pride-focused.
If any religious group wants to pledge their support for sexual and gender minorities, fucking go for it. The wider the diversity of the group the more accepted it becomes.
I agree with this as well, I haven’t seen much of that either. I was referring to the person above me saying religious people just want to show you that their religion can be accepting.- “Our God loves you, and we welcome you”.
I consider that a form of evangelism.
That's fair, but as someone whose first Pride was this year, and whose struggled a lot with being queer and raised Christian, I personally was really happy to see that there were a few churches with tents at my local Pride. It was comforting to know that, even if I've left my congregation, I don't necessarily have to abandon my faith.
It also was a bit funny that one of them was posted up right next to a vendor selling BDSM gear.
I didn’t go to pride this year because there were so many stories from other cities in my country about jews getting beat up and their stuff stolen by other pride goers. Somehow I was fine with the possibility of gettin g assaulted by bigots, but I never expected it to come from my own community.
When one studies MOGAI history, one realizes that there's many shades of grey. There were/are Catholic priests and nuns who gave their entire lives to advocacy and healthcare for HIV+ patients and people imprisoned for sodomy. There were/are Marxists who believe that the revolution will cleanse their society of both all believers and those with "unnatural bourgeois inclinations." There are religious people who work to make society loving towards everyone and irreligious people who only want to be loved by society. It goes on and on.
GSM is basically a better acronym. It stands for gender and sexual minorities. So basically it's also a replacement for LGBT where you don't need to add so of the letters, but it also wasn't created by weird tumblr users.
Marginalized Orgientation, Gender Alignment, and Intersex. Posed as an alterniative to LGBT or variations since with MOGAI it implicitly includes many identities, unlike LGBT and variations which lists out identities it includes and implicitly excludes any initial that didn't make it into the version of the acronym you used.
What frustrates me as an atheist is that a lot of these militant atheists consider themselves high minded and rational, and then turn around and treat all religion like different shades of Christianity. No, the person wearing a Star of David does not and has never given a shit that you’re gay. No, the guy dedicating his life to Buddhism doesn’t expect you to do it because he did.
Not believing God exists doesn’t mean you’re no longer culturally Christian, and treating other religions like shit because you assume Christian thought is the only kind of theological thought out there is perhaps one of the most quintessential culturally Christian things I’ve ever seen.
High holidays Channukah is minor holiday raised by Christmas envy and nationalism Why would we torture a piece of bread we dont believe in transubtantion and if we were we wouldnt do it in secret wed do it in public to disprove transubstantion.
The church accused Jews of torturing the Eucharist in the medieval era, which makes no sense if you dont think the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Jesus. The closest Judaism is explaining challah cover by anthropomorphizing challah and claiming it would get jealous of the wine being blessed first if it wasn't covered which is never mentioned after you turn 6.
That's quite a broad brush to be painting with, and sounds like "Christianity is the bad religion, the other religions are good" to me. There are most definitely sects of Judaism that will and have given a shit that you are gay. There are Ultra-Conservative sects with gender roles and all that fun. There are intolerant Buddhists who expect you to beleive as they do, just largely in areas where they are the majority.
Since no matter what, religions are made of people and shitty people in a position of power can enforce their beliefs upon others.
People also tend to paint Christianity as "Oops! All Fundamentalists!"
While it's becoming more and more the case in the US, largely because the hate towards religion gives legitimacy to the fundamentalist persecution complex, most Christian sects the world over tend not to be fundamentalist.
It's not all fundamentalist. As I've found though, due to how many ways the Bible, the Torah, and the Quran can be interpreted, it can quickly dip out of or into fundamentalist between generations. You might have a open minded mom and a fundamentalist daughter or vice versa. It's reasonable that people who were hurt by those religions would then be cautious of letting them into their safe spaces. Just to be clear, worship whom you like, feel free to participate in pride, wear your religious/cultural clothing, but please don't be setting up prayer stands, church stalls, preaching(even if it is love and acceptance by your god), because these are our safe spaces too.
I want to follow up just with a further note. They are an equating all religion as different shades of particular sects of Christianity. There is a long history of abuse and damage from Christians to just about every marginalized group around the world. But not all Christian denominations or sects perpetuate those.
I just wanted to clarify that the person wearing a crucifix or cross very well may not care about your sexual orientation either. Many Christian faiths and organizations have done a lot to undermine trust in those symbols, but that doesn’t mean we should paint all Christian sects with the same brush too.
As far as America, at least, is concerned, all Christian sects *do* have something in common: the people who are part of them are used to living in a country where Christian culture and theology is assumed the default. This does mean that Christians need to do a certain amount of work that minority religious groups don’t to notice and deconstruct their theological assumptions.
An example would be a Christian I was in a car with the other day. She asked me if I prayed, and I said no, that prayer wasn’t really a thing for Jews as much as Christians. She couldn’t conceive of a religion that didn’t centralize prayer and worship, and got frustrated after a while because she assumed that not praying or worshipping meant you didn’t have any religion at all and wasn’t able to get what I was trying to explain.
This doesn’t make all Christians bad people by any means. It just means that they need to put in more effort to be aware of how much the culture caters to them.
i would clarify that they dont imagine all religions as Christianity, but as the Hyper-Evangelical Fundamentalist flavor of Christianity, not like, Jesus.
No, I think they just generally assume all religions have the same principles as Christianity. All religions want and are welcoming of converts, all religions center prayer and belief in a divine force that directs how everyone should behave, and all religions centralize ideas of the afterlife as incentive for going along with religious principles.
Except that’s not true. Many religions don’t have a clearly defined divine god, many religions do not care to proselytize or do not want converts, many religions don’t actually have moral and ethical codes for a person to follow, and many religions don’t talk much or at all about an afterlife.
These base assumptions that sit unquestioned in an ex-Christian atheist’s mind is what really betrays how little they’ve deconstructed their own cultural Christianity even if they’ve rejected the idea of God existing.
Its because these “militant atheists” may have stopped believing in the Evangelical God (specifically the Evangelical God and no other), but are otherwise still very much old to Evangelicalism’s core teachings: that being factually correct entitles you to be an asshole, that anyone who isn’t exactly like you is evil and must be destroyed, and that the rest of the world must be hostile to Evangelicals.
Leaving a religion takes *work*. You can’t just snap and walk away. If you do, you’ll still hold the same religious values you did before, just in a darker, even more twisted way. But the average militant atheist/antitheist is too incurious about philosophy other than hard logic, math, and science to bother wrestling with the question of what good even is.
Yup, the Right Reverend Bonnie Perry the Episcopal Bishop for the diocese of Michigan and her wife Susan are both lesbians and are both clergy. There are LGBT+ theists and they aren't our enemy, hate is.
HOnestly, at times i feel like the public has, by and large, surrendered Religion as a concept to the worst people. I am not oppressed in that regard, but boy does it feel like I can't ever mention that I am Christian, because i am going to be associated with just these kind of people. Because only these kind of people are the ones that identify themselves with their faith. That hurts at times, because my faith is something very important to me and somehting that guides me through my life to do as much good as i can.
It's, of course, not helped by the fact that a lot of insitutions are also absolutely awful in that regard. And they are visibly awful because they present themselves way more than the ones that are doing their best to do good. Like boy, are the bad parts of the Catholic Church just EAGER to just harpoon everything with bullshit, while the many smaller and progressive bubbles often times get... well overlooked or they are hiding themselves for at times very idiosyncratic reasons.
I gotta say as a Jew, I've been watching Literally The Worst People utterly consume the conversation about Christianity, and. well. My condolences, friend. It's painful just to watch.
It drives me up the wall. We can all agree that these guys are the worst, right? So why do so many people just cede the stage to them and let them set the paradigm on what religion is? There is so, *so* much more out there than this one stunted strand of American Protestantism that has emerged in a handful of decades. Do your own thing, believe or don't believe, your relationship with God is your own business. All I'm asking for is some recognition that alternatives exist to Literally The Worst People.
National identities can also be used to oppress others. But I've never seen any person suggest that everyone should give up their national identity and this entire concept should be abandoned entirely.
I also understand where they are coming from. I find myself a little, unsure of how to say this properly but here we go. When I see replies like this, I feel as though that person still has the source of their trauma looming over them perpetually. Instead of learning to move on and recover and allow the scars of their traumas to heal they just keep reopen the wounds and then yelling at everyone that happens to remind them of those scars.
People like this never learned how to heal. Honestly, it makes me sad.
The worse the trauma, the harder it is to heal, and the more likely that it will leave scars. It's true, some people really do never learn how to heal, but I think that's pretty hard to tell at a glance like here. Someone might be in the process of healing, or even has made peace with their past trauma, but certain triggers can drag all the worst of it back to the surface with shocking speed.
At the same time, big tent events like Pride require everyone to compromise to some degree. If you're trying to welcome and celebrate queerness in its many manifestations, that means, well, accepting queerness in its many manifestations. Religious queers shouldn't be out there trying to convert passerby or forcing their views on others. Period. But someone walking around in religious garments/jewelry is just passively identifying themselves as a member of X religion. Is it too much to just ignore them?
> The God of Abraham, Moses, and Paul is not welcome anywhere outside of a church.
Good to know that Hashem isn’t welcome in a synagogue!
My local Pride would be significantly smaller without the support of local religious organizations. All of our pride events are attended by various Christian and Jewish groups that are there to support the events and often have a hand in organizing them.
I didn’t go to pride this year because there were so many stories from other cities about jews getting beat up and their stuff stolen. One woman I know got her dead mom’s magen david ripped off her neck and just hucked into the crowd.
I accepted the possibility of getting assaulted by bigots. But somehow having it coming from your own community is so much worse.
I’m so sorry for you and your friend. We’re blessed in that we haven’t had such issues in my area. My synagogue attended pride without issues, and our local pride organization attended the annual Jewish cultural festival.
That’s how it works with more or less any movement in my opinion.
Protestants and Catholics seem to go at it way more than Buddhists and Scientologists.
its a combination of Neoliberalism valuing Optics/"Virtue Signalling" over(or instead of) actually doing the right thing. and people being fatally online/never interacting with people outside of their narrow view of the world.
wondering if any people having a problem with religion at pride parades/festivals have actually like. been to one. my local pride parade is pretty small, but there's enough going on that unless you're yelling rude things at people, most people don't care what you're doing. it's loud, colorful, and a lot of fun. we've also got a local christian church (don't recall the denomination) that walks in solidarity with us. i don't really recall any folks of any other religion actually IN the parade itself, but i think that has more to do with my area being predominantly christian.
either your local pride parade is boring as hell, or they're being unnecessarily judgemental. pride isn't some sacred event, anyone can come, as long as you're there to have a good time and are cool with gay people.
Throwing in my two cents here: I'm a bi trans guy and I generally feel unsafe around people who are openly religious, especially if they're part of an Abrahamic religion.
I've met some genuinely sweet and kindhearted people who are religious, but most of my experiences haven't been that pleasant (I grew up Catholic and in a very conservative area).
I'm not talking about people who are casually kinda religious or go to church and believe in a higher power and celebrate the holidays associated with said religion because it's a national/cultural thing. I'm talking about people who are openly religious and enthusiastic about engaging in their faith.
Personally, unless proven otherwise, I'm going to assume that an openly deeply religious person isn't safe to be around because I've had enough of listening to how I deserve eternal torture for simply existing while growing up. That being said, if I saw a clearly deeply religious person at a LGBTQ+ event, while I might feel slightly alarmed at first (trauma's a bitch, it's the same type of distrust I feel when I meet someone who shares a name with someone who hurt me really badly or uses the same perfume as them or uses similar vocabulary etc.), ultimately I'd be like "well if they're here they're obviously not one of the crazy zealots" and move on with my life.
I think this is what a lot of people here are forgetting. There are people with legitimate traumas related to religion, Pride is a way for them to be in a safe space away from that trauma, so seeing religion at pride would make them lash out in a trauma response.
Does this mean religious people shouldnt be allowed at pride? well no, they definitely should be allowed there, but they should also understand and respect that there will be people that will lash out at them from a place of trauma.
I feel like a lot of people are focusing on the inclusivity and tolerance part to the point where bringing up valid criticisms or concerns is seen as bigotry and -isms and -phobias. Not wanting to associate with deeply religious people due to trauma related to how other deeply religious people used their age old books and their faith as an excuse to treat me like shit apparently makes me a bad person and a bigot. Pointing out that there's a lot of fucked up stuff in said books and saying that I'm uncomfortable around someone who follows said faith apparently makes me racist. It's exhausting, it's like there's no winning here.
Anyway. My take is live and let live. Don't be an asshole, and don't expect everyone to be your enemy nor your friend. Religious people belong at pride. But pride isn't about religion, and they should keep that in mind. Being uncomfortable around religious people doesn't make you a bad person. What would make you a bad person is treating them like shit for the sole fact that they are religious. Personally I'd just walk away and not engage. I don't think that telling someone that you don't want to be buddies with them should be seen as bigotry especially if they're part of a community of people who hurt you a lot.
Have you guys ever met someone? I bet you didn't. A person of any religion can support lgbt, you'll say but it's a sin, yeah and so is pork and alcohol in some religions, so is women owning property in some, mixing fabrics in some etc. Most people who belive in a god or wear religious stuff, don't take everything a holy book says literally or don't follow every rule. Most know it's better to support people in this life than to let them die just to live a better afterlige. Yeah anti lgbt rhetoric is mostly religious, but a person who is at pride celebrating/protesting with queer people probably don't buy into the hate rhetoric
You can't say "ACAB" and "cops don't belong in pride" while policing queer spaces at the same time. Religious people aren't our enemies, it's the systems and people in power exploiting religion. Don't try to replace a discriminatory system with another one.
Note: i am NOT saying cops belong at pride, they don't. And no i am not religious i am an atheist, and no i am not pissing on the poor either
A lot of people's entire concept of a religious person is the caricature of a fundamentalist. Which is ironic, because we all have a first hand experience with the harm involved with caricaturizing entire groups of people.
Also, the fact that you had to put all of that on a note shows the same confidence in its readers as the "do not drink" label in a shampoo bottle. And rightfully so. Reddit's reading comprehension is piss poor.
Not gonna lie, I debated myself a bit over if that was sarcasm or not. One, because I'm fairly sarcasm blind (the use of '/s' is a godsent for me), and two because Reddit's average reading comprehension is THAT bad.
I'll hijack your top comment to say:
Not only does this attitude hurt queer religious people and innocent religious people in general, it also hurts the very fight against religious oppression of queer people and women. By pushing away religious allies, either away from the cause or into hiding either their support or religious identity, fundamentalism is made to seem like the norm for religion. It only empowers fundamentalists if they seem like the normal religious person, it gives them more sway over apolitical religious people and religious organizations (which are already biased towards them, that I do believe)
The majority of Christians (and I'm almost certain most religious folk anywhere, but I can't speak for all places and peoples) are not fundamentalists and follow the mainstream views on queer people of their country. In short, most people are religious, and if most people in a place are supportive of queers, most religious people will be supportive of queers there too. We need religious people to become active allies, to advocate for reform in religious organizations that are against queer rights, to show that religion has no reason to be against queer people other than corruption and abuse of authority. That won't happen if we ourselves are actively silencing the voices of thsoe exact religious people. However, it also won't happen if people don't believe that it could, if people continue to view religious organizations as unchangeable, sacred (ironic, I know) and detached from the very people who belong to them.
Just as we protest against the oppression of states to which we belong, we must protest against the oppression of organizations that use our own religions for their wrongdoing.
In certain sections of the world, anti queer rhetoric is not religious at all.
The uk is swamped with very secular TERFS.
No sky daddy needed for their bigotry.
THANK YOU. It feels awful seeing people here agree with the commenter that religious queer people should hide their religion during Pride. It feels almost insane to think that some people on here at one of the most accepting and caring set of parades and events think that accepting religious beliefs is a step too far.
Religious people minding their business and being allies to their queer friends/family/colleagues - 100% welcome. Religious people trying to shove their religion down someone's throat - not so much.
I say this as a person of faith who keeps my faith to myself unless someone asks
Those religions have a bad history with the people of the rainbow so if their believers start showing support it's a good thing.
I don't really want to forgive those religions, but if we want to coexist I have to at least tolerate the ones that aren't being dicks about it
When I was growing up, I lived in a deeply conservative area, so there was no queer community around me, no pride parades, nothing of the sort. I only actually met other openly queer people late into high school, but there were like ten of us at most. The one place I could truly feel accepted for who I really was was at church, because we had several fantastic clergy working there who always tried to ensure everyone knew they were loved by God and their church community. I eventually movedon from aforementioned deeply conservative area, but my religion is still deeply tied with my queer identity and I couldn't imagine being asked to “put it away for a bit”. Sure, being Christian is a choice, but it is a choice at the core of my very being, and being asked to abandon it to fit in with other people is a terrible thing to ask.
I’m proudly anti church. I guess antitheistic is the word for it now. Hate the sin not the sinner as they would say. I hate any church/religion that would attempt to push its rules on myself and others that don’t follow it. I view people that support those religions unfavorably for their support of an institution that would do that to me and my friends. You can’t support a religion that actively attempts to take away my rights then cry foul when I simply state I don’t like you for that. You should still be allowed at pride. I don’t mind if you bring your religious stuff with you. I’m not oppressing you just because I don’t automatically like you the way I automatically like anyone else at pride.
This sort of thing kind of feels like it's dismissing religious trauma. Too many people use religion to justify their bigotry. I can't see that changing any time soon.
The problem with this post is that it uses the obviously ridiculous statement that we should "completely bar religion from Pride" to obfuscate the nuance of this topic. I'm not gonna harass or gatekeep them, but if I see that somebody is openly religious (mostly talking about Abrahamic religions here), then that makes me a tad bit uncomfortable as a queer person.
You can't simply handwave the historical and ongoing oppression, demonization, and murder of queer people perpetuated by religious institutions with "Oh, well, those are the 'bad' religious people. We're not like them." Again, you shouldn't be gatekept or harassed for it, but acting as if queer people have no right to raise an eyebrow at openly Abrahamic symbolism at Pride seems a bit insensitive to me.
Yes, and I also take issue with the way some religious people use pride as way to proselytize. Sometimes you'll hear stuff like how god loves queer people as much as everyone else or that queerness isn't a sin, as an argument that being queer is fine. That kind of reasoning is just trying to make religious people feel more welcomed and accepted, there's no problem with having it at pride.
But sometimes thise same arguments are used to support broader moral ideals and the validity of a person's religious beliefs. It could be the idea that god is all loving or that that Christianity is a source of acceptance and virtue. That kind of reasoning has no place at pride. We should be able to celebrate our queerness without hearing advertisements for people's religions and spirituality.
Religious people sometimes underestimate how entirely unwelcome these messages can be to some of us, especially when the message is vague about tge specifics of what it supports and what religion/denomination it's based on. No, it's not secular to replace god with "any god you believe in" or "a higher power", and I don't welcome unprompted messages about how god accepts me.
People should have the basic courtesy to avoid that kind of rhetoric when speaking to people who haven't consented to it, and pride is a place where you should be especially cautious about spreading religious messages to others. None of this implies that there's anything wrong with being noticeably religious at pride, but there are genuine concerns about displays of religion that this post just glosses over.
So all or y'all hold this view:
Why cops don't belong at pride? because ACAB
Why ACAB? Well you see they are volunterally part of an organization that does harm to queer people specifically.
It doesn't matter if you're a good person personally, because you are showing support for an organization that has opposed queer liberation forever, and has let abuse go rampant without any of the "good guys" speaking.
But you won't apply that to, for example, Catholics
THIS, EXACTLY THIS!!!
I have suffered tremendously at the hands of the catholic church. Yet i have been called horrible for calling out that organization.
People are all for listening to victims and supporting them. People can be so loud about how cops are dangerous.
But i cant call out the people who did nothing. I cant call out the people suporting the organization that aided in my abuse.
>!solitary confinement, being forced to eat puke, beatings, rape. All before i was 9!<
Why am I not allowed to be angry. Why are the people who stand by and watch individuals do this called monsters but when it happens on an organizational level I cant call them out. Why should i accept these people.
>!I am 26. I cant even experience my sexuality because of what these people did to me. I am still too afraid of being touched to even live my life as my true self. They took my childhood, my adolesence and my 20s.!<
That organization is still ising its power to opress queer people. It is still using its power to protect predators.
I will never accept catholics. They share the same space at pride as cops.
ACAB and ACAB
I'm not against religious people at Pride but there is something incredibly ironic about accepting open demonstrations of faiths whose adherents have been and many still are anti-LGBT while kink is being pushed out of it.
This post is pretty clearly strawmanning a very serious and important argument by conflating "religion at Pride" with "religious people/people belonging to a religion at Pride".
Being religious and being queer/being an ally are obviously not contradictory, it provably happens all the time.
However there is no major organised religion in the world that unequivocally tolerates and/or accepts queer identities. Every single major religion is at the very least complicit in, if not directly responsible for the systemic oppression of queer people around the world. The point of the arguement "No religion at Pride" is to prevent (usually non-queer) people from proselytising/preaching or otherwise explicitly advocating for their religion at pride. If you do that, then you are obfuscating your religion's systemic crimes against the queer community and thus complicit in them.
Pretending that people are genuinely arguing for excluding people from Pride for wearing traditional clothing of any kind, whether it has religious connotations or not, is ludicrous. As if queer religious people aren't the most aware and critical of the problems and contradiction between their faiths and their identities, because they're obviously the most affected.
This is not a real thing and this OOP needs to touch grass.
There's been a lot of posts complaining about corporations at Pride lately and I understand that sentiment but I'm gonna be honest with you, I find it far less egregious seeing a rainbow painted Walmart sign at Pride than a religious symbol. At the end of the day Walmart doesn't have a 2000 year long on-going history of trying to eradicate us and they at least pay a non-zero amount of tax (even if they still dodge a lot of it)
All I'm saying is that I hope people are being consistent and that no one moaning about Pride being co-opted by corpos is actually ok with religious displays there
Mmm yeah as a person with Religious Trauma^tm I would not go to a pride event where religious people were made to feel unwelcome.
Partially because I have experienced a buttload of discrimination and othering from others bcoz of the religion I used to practice, and that has been as impactful on my psyche as the religious trauma itself.
If I see a religious person at pride, its my responsibility to stay away from them instead of making them leave just bcoz their presence makes me uncomfortable.
Our booth at Pride this year was next to a booth for supportive pastors. I know plenty of non-homophobic religious people, and I am one. You’re never gonna do anything but exclude allies and queer people if you’re dedicated to pretending that all religious people must be homophobic by doctrine. That’s just the excuse homophobes make for themselves - stop agreeing with them.
Religion isn't inherent, it's a system of beliefs and organizations you choose to associate with. It's perfectly reasonable to judge people for who they associate with and the beliefs they declare. Religionists hate people bringing up the trauma that they cause though, so caution is warranted with them
Yeah religion is not an innate trait like race, sex, gender, neurodivergence, etc. I agree you shouldn't directly harass them but it's much more analogous to a political party or philosophy and I can absolutley agree that some of those probably shouldn't be welcome at Pride
Religious people at pride = yes
People using religion to justify bigotry at pride = no
Everybody should be welcome, not all actual personal expressions are welcome
I'm a lesbian who experienced prejudice from (some, not all) religious members of my family and community, and I experienced this philosophy personally at a pride event I recently volunteered at.
The pride event is a relatively new one for my community and a local LGBT+ friendly church has been instrumental in helping us put it on from the start. They let the guiding organization use a spare room for their office all year, they loan us equipment for free, they host concessions, give food and water to the volunteers, and let us use their space as a green room for drag performers. One of the church's employees even helps organize the events, though they never try and step in to take over. They're respectful, caring, kind, and generous. I'm not religious anymore, but I love their brand of religion and they are always welcome at pride.
By contrast, we had a non-affiliated Christian dude with a megaphone outside the event shouting at people that they were 'captivated by the spirit of the Devil' and needed to repent or go to hell. That shit can fuck right off at Pride (and everywhere else, for that matter).
I definitely understand feeling wary about religious people if you've been hurt before by them, but religion does not automatically make you a bad person (in the same way that being atheist doesn't automatically make you a good person).
Yup I agree; like I know gay trump supporters, would it be dandy for them to show up to a pride parade with maga hats and trump flags? Like to me it's obvious that would not go over well and I think most would agree. But it's interesting that some people can understand why that wouldn't be ok, without understanding why religious stuff at pride would be rude
Someone being religious and attending pride is not the same as bringing religious stuff to pride.
Being religious and attending pride is not the same as wearing a MAGA hat. A MAGA hat aligns you with a particular person and his beliefs. The equivalent would be wearing apparel with a particular religious organisation on it. I agree if you're actively repping a homophobic religious organisation, that's different.
But simply having a religion (which may well not be homophobic), is not the same as actively representing a particular organisation or belief system.
I really don't get the "leopards ate my face comment". not that I agree with that person but I just don't think leopards ate my face is applicable here. there's nothing hypocritical about an atheist being against religious people.
So you wouldn't actually notice the religious folks at pride because pride doesn't have anything to do with religion. It's just part of the community that you're supposed to help nourish and make better.
The angry yelling ones, they've got it wrong, but the paradox of tolerance is a bitch and fundamentalism (the act of being fundamentally wrong) is a hell of a drug. Which brings up a good question:
Would the queer community want Christians to more outwardly support equal rights *as Christians* instead of just as neighbors?
Religious people obviously have the right to be at pride but that doesn’t mean that everyone automatically has to treat them with respect or feel safe around them. It’s a free country and people are allowed to judge others for their beliefs and actions.
I have not personally met any religious people who weren’t massive scumbags or violent sociopaths so I naturally wouldn’t feel comfortable in a space with anyone who is visibly part of a group that largely believed in killing and oppressing queer minorities. They are still allowed to exist and come to pride if they want, regardless of their own personal reasons.
Obviously we should never discrimate against people for being Muslim or Christian. But it also makes sense for someone who's openly LGBTQ to feel more threatened by someone who's core ideology deems their sexuality a sin or something to be punished.
I'm sorry but if you're "religion" says I should be stoned to death for just me being me and not hurting anyone but you have it written down how much you need to pay after the fact of you rapping someone or that 50+% of the population shouldn't have a word in government y'all can suck my dick
A lot of people on these discussions always default on 'Abrahamic' religions (which is on itself a terrible reductionism of Judaism, Christianism and Islam, despite their many differences), and always talk about religion as if it was something people could choose and pick at convenience.
Same difference when refusing to acknowledge the sociocultural component of religion. For a lot of people, their religious practice isn't as much about belief than it is about taking part in their society and the culture they come from. Trying to paint someone's religion as "your imaginary friend" shows a lack (or refusal) of understanding.
I want to blame Richard Dawkins for this one, but honestly this problem is far older. It's painting the person with a different culture and a different look as "the other". That enemy to be rejected without question and without examination. Which is a very colonialist way to look at a different culture.
its easy to say this shit if you havent personally experienced individuals or your country actively opressing you with religious nonsense or have distanced yourself from it. im from poland and i do feel inherently unsafe near someone wearing a cross. im ok with being called a bigot here, my desire to be nice is far lesser than my desire for safety. im not stupid, i know what this religion has done and is doing to people like me and im not interested in playing along. someones religion isnt an independent parasite that attached itself to them, it is a choice to identify as (member of religion) publically. im sick and fucking tired of minorities but especially the lgbt community trying to welcome people who openly support systems that keep us down. maybe its easier if the church in your area is accepting of women and gays and everyone else but i am not in this situation and i will not pretend i feel anything else than disgust when i hear people mention putting money on the platter in church
this is like telling vegans to be a-ok with people going to their parades and rallies wearing fur (its ok it might have been made out of the mythical roadkill that appears in pro-animal product arguments). or like telling POC to be ok with people going to their parades and rallies wearing a confederate flag t shirt (they might just be history buffs). its ok to recognise who supports you, doesnt support you and supports your oppressors. you should never be forced to feel ok with organisations that have a long history of and still do cause us pain and suffering
Ah, yes, definitely a real atheist with a real position of "god is real but isn't invited to (checks notes) fucking pride???
Yeah, definitely a real issue on the left and totally not a manufacturered drama.
Literally not a single fucking person has ever said anything about anything. Wtf
I hate when people justify an opposition to antitheism with examples of beliefs that not all antitheists have.
People should not be shunned for wearing religious paraphernalia at pride, or in general. Even those rooted in misogyny.
At my last pride I went to 2 of the vendors were churches and while I don't want to interact with them due to religious trauma I can respect that others might.
if a god exists, I doubt he'd be on the side of his followers who are massive bigots and assholes. doesn't Christianity proclaim that God loves everyone? so if a religious person is NOT being a massive bigot and asshole, then it stands to reason that they view their God in a similar way, so yes, God as a religious person at pride views him is welcome at pride
This sub is fcking garbage. Brigaded by the "so much of the tolerant left!" type. "Curated" my ass.
Or should I say, full of insufferable Westerners who never had to live a day surrounded by the worst of religious pricks and the ideology that they actively choose to support instead of being born to.
I don't think it's oppressive to ask people to not wear symbols commonly associated with Hateful ideologies when attending an event commonly full of people who are the target of said hate.
Just cuz the pope said "we all good now" don't mean we good now.
I couldn’t even walk past a church without having an anxiety attack for *years* after being raised Catholic I am *not* giving those assholes a pass. Idgaf about other religions at Pride but the Catholic church is an evil colonialist pedophilic institution built on the bones of those they oppress
What is up with all of these posts advocating for being a doormat today? Sorry your religion doesn’t belong at pride when that same religion oppresses queer people!
Fuck anti-antitheism. You can be a decent person regardless of what you believe, but by captulating to an organized religion that has actively been killing people and using their gospel as an excuse to amass power for millenia you are defending them.
You can't think ACAB is reasonable without being antitheist, it's the same principle: unchecked power leads to bad people getting away with bad things.
'NO RELIGION AT PRIDE, RELIGION IS A BAD THING WHOLESALE, ALL RELIGIONS ARE TOOLS OF OPPRESSION'
\*I pull my tarot cards out of a bag to play around with while relaxing at a pride event\*
'Wow are you a WITCH that's so cool that's beautiful, are you a *pagan* or a *wiccan* or what else?? You know Isis is like my patron goddess I don't really do so much to appease her but sometimes I buy crystals and arrange them in circles on my desk and I just know it makes her so so happy\~\~ I'm so glad there aren't any *real* religious people around here!'
No, we have to axe the pseudoscientific crystal stuff when it starts to no longer be cosplay too.
I suppose you feel validated with that opinion too, we both win.
They make a good point about the police outfit. What *is* the difference? Police and religion are both overall opressive forces. Both policemen and religious people can be good people and can have pride in their sexuality. But that doesn't mean a police outfit is welcome at pride.
Hell, there are plenty of gay trump voters. Would we be ok with a MAGA hat at Pride?
i didn’t read all that why is part of the post underwater
It’s become common on Tumblr to “drown” posts you’ve screenshotted and are responding to, usually posts you disagree with. I don’t know the origin, though it seems to be pejorative, a way of letting followers know that you disagree.
adding to this, the reason why it's water is because it's the tumblr filter that makes it easiest to still read the screenshots afterwards.
It’s also to make it clear that it’s not your words at first glance, especially if you’re cropping out usernames and such to the point where a screenshot would look like a text post.
"Here is the bad poster, to whom we give the ceremonial swirly. May their mouth remain shut evermore."
"I'm sorry but you have been portrayed here as the swirljack, im afraid there's nothing we can do"
I believe the religious term is baptism.
Could also be like you’re looking through a glass and it’s at the bottom of the tumbler.
That, and there are certain words that get automodded, so they drown the post so it can’t detect them
Ooooooh that's smart
It was helpful to me in determining the vibe of the post. With no filter, it would have looked like the second post was what was being agreed with before I could see the whole thing.
I like this, it's such a peaceful way to openly disagree Does it "tell" the reader how to feel? Yeah I guess, BUT it's so much nicer than like a big red cross or smth
Because water they trying to say?
*holy shit.*
Baptism
I was thinking the same!
i think its to help people differentiate between screenshots of tumblr posts and actual tumblr posts
why are they being baptized
clever tactic so that now the commenters are unable to attend pride by their own rules. ggwp
Devious
Lmao
Had to point this out to my religious mother before. Told her about a few people I talk to that she dreamed as evil and said I shouldn't hang out with them. Asked her point blank "Oh like how Jesus didn't hang out with those tax collectors or prostitutes right? He only hung around those righteous Pharisees. Got it" it took her a while but she's finally realized how wrong she was to be so antagonistic to people. It's not perfect but it's a start.
Pretty sure he told those prostitutes and tax collectors to stop doing what they were doing and repent…
Probably but my main point at the time was "Hey, calling people evil and saying I shouldn't hang out with them is not doing anyone any favors. You talk about how they should repent and change but show no mercy. Why would anyone listen when you think so little of them?" Gotta start small before you force anyone like my mom to 180 on their world view. Easier to get them to turn around one step at a time, you know? Getting her to see people as people and deserving of dignity and love was the first step.
I don't *actually* know what he did but I'm pretty sure he sat down with them and had calm discussions. Treated them like human beings and kindly asked them to repent.
New “_______ @ pride” discourse just dropped.😔
No horses at pride. They shit all over the place and apparently it's no one's job to clean it up.
is every post on this sub just gonna be vagueposting about some perceived "progressivism run wild!!!" stuff
Occasionally we get incomprehensible ramblings or infodumps about cool stuff, but yeah it's mostly this
Misinformed infodumps, usually.
my favourite is when someone infodumps and competing posts both refute and affirm it because the answer is more nuanced than even a block of text from Tumblr.
I mean, that's better than when someone makes something up because it sounds right to them and then people regurgitate it for years afterward, like the vampire reflection thing, the "death has multiple tools" thing, the "water of the womb" thing, etc.
CuratedTumblr for better or worse is the only sub I’ve found where you can softball criticism at progressives and not have people immediately heil hitlering or going completely ballistic about you not 100% agreeing with progressives.
Agreed. This is one of only a few (PUBLIC) places on the internet that is both basically progressive and what I would consider "chill" at all.
It's also very important, because if the only places where you're allowed to criticize progressives are right-wing spaces, then you *will* end up radicalized.
Yup. I'm not particularly progressive, but I like this sub because it gives me a different viewpoint (not to mention the fun nerd dumps) without feeling like it's a minefield.
I am very progressive, and I like this sub because it lets me vent about all the things that infuriate me about my own political views. Being a leftist *sucks*, but unfortunately it is also objectively correct.
Damned leftists, we ruined leftism 😔
While I too am a leftist, calling a political ideology "objectively correct" makes it sound like other people are wrong. Most of us agree on the root problems and the politics is the solution. The thing that's wrong is the position where you don't agree that something is a problem. That's where you need to focus your attention, not on the person. Fear politics is really what's dividing everyone. EDIT: hey, maybe look at the overall point of "hey, maybe let's try to handle the fear-mongering with some unity for a change, and open ourselves up to the fact that most of us are on the same side here" instead of "bad people bad!"
My point is more that I would make such a great monarchist, that would be so much fun, but alas my conscience demands that I be a leftist.
Yeah, and this actually makes it my favorite place on the internet for reasonable human being takes on things
I wouldn't say these posts are complaining about "progressivism run wild!!!", they're more about criticising progressivism *not done right*. They're talking about people in progressive circles who use progressive language or support groups supported by progressivism but don't actually believe in or comprehend the underlying principles. They just swap the in-groups and out-groups and continue exactly as before.
I’m not sure if this is vagueposting because a specific example is included, right?
It isn't perceived. I'm super left, and pan sexual. I'm also religious. When I tell you that I'm not really accepted anywhere online because of that, I'm not really exaggerating. I get why people feel that way, but it really fucking sucks to be ridiculed and told I must hate myself and I'm not actually queer. This shit is actually real
If it helps, I accept you. You should not hate yourself for being you, either. I'm sorry so many people can't just can't get over themselves long enough to realize the harm they do to others. I am also sorry that there isn't much I can do about it. But, I hope knowing at least one more person accepts you as you are helps.
I mean the "progressivism run wild" stuff I've seen basically amounts to: You shouldn't discriminate against someone because of their race You shouldn't discriminate against someone because of their gender or sexuality You shouldn't make sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people and then acting like the people who don't match the generalization are "one of the good ones". So if you have issues with those types of statements criticizing hypocrisy in self proclaimed progressive spaces and think that counts as progressivism run wild posting then yes a lot of posts here are that. There's also voting stuff (oh boy election year), good tumblr nonsense, and discourse about other topics.
I feel like for the most part it succeeds to raise some nuance without being anti-progressive, “both sides”, “enlightened centrist” kind of stuff. For the most part, I find it useful.
“Paint your leftist enemies as caricatures and straw men to drive people away and into more moderate or even right wing modes of thinking.” - sometimes it’s trolls actively parodying leftists to drive people right, sometimes the insane leftist brain rot / infighting is just actually a bad take. There’s also the “take a leftist brain rot take and bring a ton of attention to it.” Middle road of right wing propaganda. Really easy when we have so much purity culture and trauma responses on the left. Traumatized people knee jerking their way towards safety, it’s really sad. Folks need compassion not to have their trauma responses publicized, belittled, or (as is the case with straw man extremist views) parodied.
Is it. Percieved. If it's. Y'know. Happening in the post itself?
Right????????
I understand where they’re coming from. They’ve been abused and traumatized, very likely for their gender/orientation, and religion was at least one of the tools used to abuse them. So they’re seeing the tool of their abusers being brought into their safe space, and they’re lashing out. But understanding why doesn’t mean they’re right. Religious queer people deserve a place at Pride, too. Religious allies deserve a place at Pride, too. Hell, a lot of those religious folks at Pride are specifically putting themselves on the frontlines of the battle against religion-as-a-tool-of-abuse. They’re there to say, “Our God loves you, and our faith welcomes you.” Even if you personally are an atheist, I think that’s a powerful message to get, to know that people out there are willing to fight tooth and nail against the vicious abusers in their communities so that YOU can have a home with them. Do you need to move into that home? No, choose the home that best fits you. But that option should be there.
Im totally for people of any religion to be at pride, but I don’t think anyone should be evangelizing at pride. And I would be very put off and feel incredibly unwelcome if I went to pride and got preached at. If queer religious people want to celebrate their religion and their queerness with other likeminded people, that’s cool! They don’t need to be welcoming others or trying to get others to realize their religion isn’t homophobic. Time and place. It becomes something of a no true scotsman argument. “Well, I say no TRUE Christian would be hateful” , or something similar.
I think that a fair take. Evangelizing is fucking awful.
Evangelizing is the worst background noise, and it's even worse in the foreground.
What's wrong with Evangelizing? I though it's pretty good anime. Shinji is my favorite.♥️
I mean, it's moreso the Evangelising that's the issue here, and I'm not a fan of Evangelising or people being preachy in any context, not specifically pride-focused. If any religious group wants to pledge their support for sexual and gender minorities, fucking go for it. The wider the diversity of the group the more accepted it becomes.
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I agree with this as well, I haven’t seen much of that either. I was referring to the person above me saying religious people just want to show you that their religion can be accepting.- “Our God loves you, and we welcome you”. I consider that a form of evangelism.
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That’s totally fair! Context is def important for this.
That's fair, but as someone whose first Pride was this year, and whose struggled a lot with being queer and raised Christian, I personally was really happy to see that there were a few churches with tents at my local Pride. It was comforting to know that, even if I've left my congregation, I don't necessarily have to abandon my faith. It also was a bit funny that one of them was posted up right next to a vendor selling BDSM gear.
One tent for the good Christians, the other for the naughty ones
Speaking as a gay Christian, they are sometimes the same people XD
Real AF
100% this.
I didn’t go to pride this year because there were so many stories from other cities in my country about jews getting beat up and their stuff stolen by other pride goers. Somehow I was fine with the possibility of gettin g assaulted by bigots, but I never expected it to come from my own community.
People probably shouldn't be evangelizing in public at all tbf
Absolutely agree.
When one studies MOGAI history, one realizes that there's many shades of grey. There were/are Catholic priests and nuns who gave their entire lives to advocacy and healthcare for HIV+ patients and people imprisoned for sodomy. There were/are Marxists who believe that the revolution will cleanse their society of both all believers and those with "unnatural bourgeois inclinations." There are religious people who work to make society loving towards everyone and irreligious people who only want to be loved by society. It goes on and on.
If you're going to use an extremely obscure acronym like that, you should provide a definition for it.
GSM is basically a better acronym. It stands for gender and sexual minorities. So basically it's also a replacement for LGBT where you don't need to add so of the letters, but it also wasn't created by weird tumblr users.
LGBT+ already encompasses everything and is way more recognizable
Not MOGAI...the fake tumblr acronym
Fr that brought me back for a bit
What is a MOGAI?
Marginalized Orgientation, Gender Alignment, and Intersex. Posed as an alterniative to LGBT or variations since with MOGAI it implicitly includes many identities, unlike LGBT and variations which lists out identities it includes and implicitly excludes any initial that didn't make it into the version of the acronym you used.
That's what the `+` is for.
I suppose that means if any group makes progress, they can be kicked out.
amogai
Moai🗿🗣️
You lost me at MOGAI.
🗿
What frustrates me as an atheist is that a lot of these militant atheists consider themselves high minded and rational, and then turn around and treat all religion like different shades of Christianity. No, the person wearing a Star of David does not and has never given a shit that you’re gay. No, the guy dedicating his life to Buddhism doesn’t expect you to do it because he did. Not believing God exists doesn’t mean you’re no longer culturally Christian, and treating other religions like shit because you assume Christian thought is the only kind of theological thought out there is perhaps one of the most quintessential culturally Christian things I’ve ever seen.
Jewish experience in a nutshell, not even joking.
High holidays Channukah is minor holiday raised by Christmas envy and nationalism Why would we torture a piece of bread we dont believe in transubtantion and if we were we wouldnt do it in secret wed do it in public to disprove transubstantion.
Why are you talking about transubstantiation?
The church accused Jews of torturing the Eucharist in the medieval era, which makes no sense if you dont think the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Jesus. The closest Judaism is explaining challah cover by anthropomorphizing challah and claiming it would get jealous of the wine being blessed first if it wasn't covered which is never mentioned after you turn 6.
and maybe taking the metaphor of Shabbat as a bride or Torah as a bride too literallly.
That's quite a broad brush to be painting with, and sounds like "Christianity is the bad religion, the other religions are good" to me. There are most definitely sects of Judaism that will and have given a shit that you are gay. There are Ultra-Conservative sects with gender roles and all that fun. There are intolerant Buddhists who expect you to beleive as they do, just largely in areas where they are the majority. Since no matter what, religions are made of people and shitty people in a position of power can enforce their beliefs upon others.
People also tend to paint Christianity as "Oops! All Fundamentalists!" While it's becoming more and more the case in the US, largely because the hate towards religion gives legitimacy to the fundamentalist persecution complex, most Christian sects the world over tend not to be fundamentalist.
It's not all fundamentalist. As I've found though, due to how many ways the Bible, the Torah, and the Quran can be interpreted, it can quickly dip out of or into fundamentalist between generations. You might have a open minded mom and a fundamentalist daughter or vice versa. It's reasonable that people who were hurt by those religions would then be cautious of letting them into their safe spaces. Just to be clear, worship whom you like, feel free to participate in pride, wear your religious/cultural clothing, but please don't be setting up prayer stands, church stalls, preaching(even if it is love and acceptance by your god), because these are our safe spaces too.
Very true. Lotta people need to be reminded that there's a time and a place for these sorts of things.
I want to follow up just with a further note. They are an equating all religion as different shades of particular sects of Christianity. There is a long history of abuse and damage from Christians to just about every marginalized group around the world. But not all Christian denominations or sects perpetuate those. I just wanted to clarify that the person wearing a crucifix or cross very well may not care about your sexual orientation either. Many Christian faiths and organizations have done a lot to undermine trust in those symbols, but that doesn’t mean we should paint all Christian sects with the same brush too.
As far as America, at least, is concerned, all Christian sects *do* have something in common: the people who are part of them are used to living in a country where Christian culture and theology is assumed the default. This does mean that Christians need to do a certain amount of work that minority religious groups don’t to notice and deconstruct their theological assumptions. An example would be a Christian I was in a car with the other day. She asked me if I prayed, and I said no, that prayer wasn’t really a thing for Jews as much as Christians. She couldn’t conceive of a religion that didn’t centralize prayer and worship, and got frustrated after a while because she assumed that not praying or worshipping meant you didn’t have any religion at all and wasn’t able to get what I was trying to explain. This doesn’t make all Christians bad people by any means. It just means that they need to put in more effort to be aware of how much the culture caters to them.
i would clarify that they dont imagine all religions as Christianity, but as the Hyper-Evangelical Fundamentalist flavor of Christianity, not like, Jesus.
No, I think they just generally assume all religions have the same principles as Christianity. All religions want and are welcoming of converts, all religions center prayer and belief in a divine force that directs how everyone should behave, and all religions centralize ideas of the afterlife as incentive for going along with religious principles. Except that’s not true. Many religions don’t have a clearly defined divine god, many religions do not care to proselytize or do not want converts, many religions don’t actually have moral and ethical codes for a person to follow, and many religions don’t talk much or at all about an afterlife. These base assumptions that sit unquestioned in an ex-Christian atheist’s mind is what really betrays how little they’ve deconstructed their own cultural Christianity even if they’ve rejected the idea of God existing.
Its because these “militant atheists” may have stopped believing in the Evangelical God (specifically the Evangelical God and no other), but are otherwise still very much old to Evangelicalism’s core teachings: that being factually correct entitles you to be an asshole, that anyone who isn’t exactly like you is evil and must be destroyed, and that the rest of the world must be hostile to Evangelicals. Leaving a religion takes *work*. You can’t just snap and walk away. If you do, you’ll still hold the same religious values you did before, just in a darker, even more twisted way. But the average militant atheist/antitheist is too incurious about philosophy other than hard logic, math, and science to bother wrestling with the question of what good even is.
Also "christian" is pretty fucking diverse too. There is a reason that they all call eachother heratics.
Yup, the Right Reverend Bonnie Perry the Episcopal Bishop for the diocese of Michigan and her wife Susan are both lesbians and are both clergy. There are LGBT+ theists and they aren't our enemy, hate is.
HOnestly, at times i feel like the public has, by and large, surrendered Religion as a concept to the worst people. I am not oppressed in that regard, but boy does it feel like I can't ever mention that I am Christian, because i am going to be associated with just these kind of people. Because only these kind of people are the ones that identify themselves with their faith. That hurts at times, because my faith is something very important to me and somehting that guides me through my life to do as much good as i can. It's, of course, not helped by the fact that a lot of insitutions are also absolutely awful in that regard. And they are visibly awful because they present themselves way more than the ones that are doing their best to do good. Like boy, are the bad parts of the Catholic Church just EAGER to just harpoon everything with bullshit, while the many smaller and progressive bubbles often times get... well overlooked or they are hiding themselves for at times very idiosyncratic reasons.
I gotta say as a Jew, I've been watching Literally The Worst People utterly consume the conversation about Christianity, and. well. My condolences, friend. It's painful just to watch. It drives me up the wall. We can all agree that these guys are the worst, right? So why do so many people just cede the stage to them and let them set the paradigm on what religion is? There is so, *so* much more out there than this one stunted strand of American Protestantism that has emerged in a handful of decades. Do your own thing, believe or don't believe, your relationship with God is your own business. All I'm asking for is some recognition that alternatives exist to Literally The Worst People.
National identities can also be used to oppress others. But I've never seen any person suggest that everyone should give up their national identity and this entire concept should be abandoned entirely.
I also understand where they are coming from. I find myself a little, unsure of how to say this properly but here we go. When I see replies like this, I feel as though that person still has the source of their trauma looming over them perpetually. Instead of learning to move on and recover and allow the scars of their traumas to heal they just keep reopen the wounds and then yelling at everyone that happens to remind them of those scars. People like this never learned how to heal. Honestly, it makes me sad.
The worse the trauma, the harder it is to heal, and the more likely that it will leave scars. It's true, some people really do never learn how to heal, but I think that's pretty hard to tell at a glance like here. Someone might be in the process of healing, or even has made peace with their past trauma, but certain triggers can drag all the worst of it back to the surface with shocking speed. At the same time, big tent events like Pride require everyone to compromise to some degree. If you're trying to welcome and celebrate queerness in its many manifestations, that means, well, accepting queerness in its many manifestations. Religious queers shouldn't be out there trying to convert passerby or forcing their views on others. Period. But someone walking around in religious garments/jewelry is just passively identifying themselves as a member of X religion. Is it too much to just ignore them?
> The God of Abraham, Moses, and Paul is not welcome anywhere outside of a church. Good to know that Hashem isn’t welcome in a synagogue! My local Pride would be significantly smaller without the support of local religious organizations. All of our pride events are attended by various Christian and Jewish groups that are there to support the events and often have a hand in organizing them.
I didn’t go to pride this year because there were so many stories from other cities about jews getting beat up and their stuff stolen. One woman I know got her dead mom’s magen david ripped off her neck and just hucked into the crowd. I accepted the possibility of getting assaulted by bigots. But somehow having it coming from your own community is so much worse.
I’m so sorry for you and your friend. We’re blessed in that we haven’t had such issues in my area. My synagogue attended pride without issues, and our local pride organization attended the annual Jewish cultural festival.
I’m really glad to hear that. Comforting to know there are those kinds of places too. Wishing peace on you and yours.
Same to you, I hope that things improve soon.
I feel like this comment section demonstrates "the biggest enemy of progressives aren't conservatives, but slightly different progressives"
That’s how it works with more or less any movement in my opinion. Protestants and Catholics seem to go at it way more than Buddhists and Scientologists.
its a combination of Neoliberalism valuing Optics/"Virtue Signalling" over(or instead of) actually doing the right thing. and people being fatally online/never interacting with people outside of their narrow view of the world.
lots of deeply chronically online takes from kids who don't understand collective action in the comment section today
No, I'm pretty sure it's still conservatives, despite this interaction.
Leftists since the beginning of time
wondering if any people having a problem with religion at pride parades/festivals have actually like. been to one. my local pride parade is pretty small, but there's enough going on that unless you're yelling rude things at people, most people don't care what you're doing. it's loud, colorful, and a lot of fun. we've also got a local christian church (don't recall the denomination) that walks in solidarity with us. i don't really recall any folks of any other religion actually IN the parade itself, but i think that has more to do with my area being predominantly christian. either your local pride parade is boring as hell, or they're being unnecessarily judgemental. pride isn't some sacred event, anyone can come, as long as you're there to have a good time and are cool with gay people.
Honestly with everyone waving flags around I probably wouldn't notice a hijab.
Throwing in my two cents here: I'm a bi trans guy and I generally feel unsafe around people who are openly religious, especially if they're part of an Abrahamic religion. I've met some genuinely sweet and kindhearted people who are religious, but most of my experiences haven't been that pleasant (I grew up Catholic and in a very conservative area). I'm not talking about people who are casually kinda religious or go to church and believe in a higher power and celebrate the holidays associated with said religion because it's a national/cultural thing. I'm talking about people who are openly religious and enthusiastic about engaging in their faith. Personally, unless proven otherwise, I'm going to assume that an openly deeply religious person isn't safe to be around because I've had enough of listening to how I deserve eternal torture for simply existing while growing up. That being said, if I saw a clearly deeply religious person at a LGBTQ+ event, while I might feel slightly alarmed at first (trauma's a bitch, it's the same type of distrust I feel when I meet someone who shares a name with someone who hurt me really badly or uses the same perfume as them or uses similar vocabulary etc.), ultimately I'd be like "well if they're here they're obviously not one of the crazy zealots" and move on with my life.
I think this is what a lot of people here are forgetting. There are people with legitimate traumas related to religion, Pride is a way for them to be in a safe space away from that trauma, so seeing religion at pride would make them lash out in a trauma response. Does this mean religious people shouldnt be allowed at pride? well no, they definitely should be allowed there, but they should also understand and respect that there will be people that will lash out at them from a place of trauma.
I feel like a lot of people are focusing on the inclusivity and tolerance part to the point where bringing up valid criticisms or concerns is seen as bigotry and -isms and -phobias. Not wanting to associate with deeply religious people due to trauma related to how other deeply religious people used their age old books and their faith as an excuse to treat me like shit apparently makes me a bad person and a bigot. Pointing out that there's a lot of fucked up stuff in said books and saying that I'm uncomfortable around someone who follows said faith apparently makes me racist. It's exhausting, it's like there's no winning here. Anyway. My take is live and let live. Don't be an asshole, and don't expect everyone to be your enemy nor your friend. Religious people belong at pride. But pride isn't about religion, and they should keep that in mind. Being uncomfortable around religious people doesn't make you a bad person. What would make you a bad person is treating them like shit for the sole fact that they are religious. Personally I'd just walk away and not engage. I don't think that telling someone that you don't want to be buddies with them should be seen as bigotry especially if they're part of a community of people who hurt you a lot.
Have you guys ever met someone? I bet you didn't. A person of any religion can support lgbt, you'll say but it's a sin, yeah and so is pork and alcohol in some religions, so is women owning property in some, mixing fabrics in some etc. Most people who belive in a god or wear religious stuff, don't take everything a holy book says literally or don't follow every rule. Most know it's better to support people in this life than to let them die just to live a better afterlige. Yeah anti lgbt rhetoric is mostly religious, but a person who is at pride celebrating/protesting with queer people probably don't buy into the hate rhetoric You can't say "ACAB" and "cops don't belong in pride" while policing queer spaces at the same time. Religious people aren't our enemies, it's the systems and people in power exploiting religion. Don't try to replace a discriminatory system with another one. Note: i am NOT saying cops belong at pride, they don't. And no i am not religious i am an atheist, and no i am not pissing on the poor either
>Have you guys ever met someone? No. I've never met another human being. That includes the day I was born >!I'm joking!<
>That includes the day I was born So, both your mom and dad failed to show up? You need a platypus therapist
Maybe. Maybe after I conquer the Tri-State area. Or I guess in my case the 5 boroughs?
A lot of people's entire concept of a religious person is the caricature of a fundamentalist. Which is ironic, because we all have a first hand experience with the harm involved with caricaturizing entire groups of people. Also, the fact that you had to put all of that on a note shows the same confidence in its readers as the "do not drink" label in a shampoo bottle. And rightfully so. Reddit's reading comprehension is piss poor.
How dare you suggest we piss on the poor?
Not gonna lie, I debated myself a bit over if that was sarcasm or not. One, because I'm fairly sarcasm blind (the use of '/s' is a godsent for me), and two because Reddit's average reading comprehension is THAT bad.
For future reference, it's a pretty common meme on tumblr.
Thanks!
Yo, they *JUST* said they’re not pissing on the poor! /s
I'll hijack your top comment to say: Not only does this attitude hurt queer religious people and innocent religious people in general, it also hurts the very fight against religious oppression of queer people and women. By pushing away religious allies, either away from the cause or into hiding either their support or religious identity, fundamentalism is made to seem like the norm for religion. It only empowers fundamentalists if they seem like the normal religious person, it gives them more sway over apolitical religious people and religious organizations (which are already biased towards them, that I do believe) The majority of Christians (and I'm almost certain most religious folk anywhere, but I can't speak for all places and peoples) are not fundamentalists and follow the mainstream views on queer people of their country. In short, most people are religious, and if most people in a place are supportive of queers, most religious people will be supportive of queers there too. We need religious people to become active allies, to advocate for reform in religious organizations that are against queer rights, to show that religion has no reason to be against queer people other than corruption and abuse of authority. That won't happen if we ourselves are actively silencing the voices of thsoe exact religious people. However, it also won't happen if people don't believe that it could, if people continue to view religious organizations as unchangeable, sacred (ironic, I know) and detached from the very people who belong to them. Just as we protest against the oppression of states to which we belong, we must protest against the oppression of organizations that use our own religions for their wrongdoing.
In certain sections of the world, anti queer rhetoric is not religious at all. The uk is swamped with very secular TERFS. No sky daddy needed for their bigotry.
THANK YOU. It feels awful seeing people here agree with the commenter that religious queer people should hide their religion during Pride. It feels almost insane to think that some people on here at one of the most accepting and caring set of parades and events think that accepting religious beliefs is a step too far.
Religious people minding their business and being allies to their queer friends/family/colleagues - 100% welcome. Religious people trying to shove their religion down someone's throat - not so much. I say this as a person of faith who keeps my faith to myself unless someone asks
Those religions have a bad history with the people of the rainbow so if their believers start showing support it's a good thing. I don't really want to forgive those religions, but if we want to coexist I have to at least tolerate the ones that aren't being dicks about it
When I was growing up, I lived in a deeply conservative area, so there was no queer community around me, no pride parades, nothing of the sort. I only actually met other openly queer people late into high school, but there were like ten of us at most. The one place I could truly feel accepted for who I really was was at church, because we had several fantastic clergy working there who always tried to ensure everyone knew they were loved by God and their church community. I eventually movedon from aforementioned deeply conservative area, but my religion is still deeply tied with my queer identity and I couldn't imagine being asked to “put it away for a bit”. Sure, being Christian is a choice, but it is a choice at the core of my very being, and being asked to abandon it to fit in with other people is a terrible thing to ask.
I’m proudly anti church. I guess antitheistic is the word for it now. Hate the sin not the sinner as they would say. I hate any church/religion that would attempt to push its rules on myself and others that don’t follow it. I view people that support those religions unfavorably for their support of an institution that would do that to me and my friends. You can’t support a religion that actively attempts to take away my rights then cry foul when I simply state I don’t like you for that. You should still be allowed at pride. I don’t mind if you bring your religious stuff with you. I’m not oppressing you just because I don’t automatically like you the way I automatically like anyone else at pride.
This sort of thing kind of feels like it's dismissing religious trauma. Too many people use religion to justify their bigotry. I can't see that changing any time soon.
Religion is the *source* of the bigotry in most cases. Homophobia nearly always comes from cult indoctrination.
I know three gay people who are practicing Christian's. Don't know what else to say except my allyship as a straight guy needs to include them too.
The problem with this post is that it uses the obviously ridiculous statement that we should "completely bar religion from Pride" to obfuscate the nuance of this topic. I'm not gonna harass or gatekeep them, but if I see that somebody is openly religious (mostly talking about Abrahamic religions here), then that makes me a tad bit uncomfortable as a queer person. You can't simply handwave the historical and ongoing oppression, demonization, and murder of queer people perpetuated by religious institutions with "Oh, well, those are the 'bad' religious people. We're not like them." Again, you shouldn't be gatekept or harassed for it, but acting as if queer people have no right to raise an eyebrow at openly Abrahamic symbolism at Pride seems a bit insensitive to me.
Yes, and I also take issue with the way some religious people use pride as way to proselytize. Sometimes you'll hear stuff like how god loves queer people as much as everyone else or that queerness isn't a sin, as an argument that being queer is fine. That kind of reasoning is just trying to make religious people feel more welcomed and accepted, there's no problem with having it at pride. But sometimes thise same arguments are used to support broader moral ideals and the validity of a person's religious beliefs. It could be the idea that god is all loving or that that Christianity is a source of acceptance and virtue. That kind of reasoning has no place at pride. We should be able to celebrate our queerness without hearing advertisements for people's religions and spirituality. Religious people sometimes underestimate how entirely unwelcome these messages can be to some of us, especially when the message is vague about tge specifics of what it supports and what religion/denomination it's based on. No, it's not secular to replace god with "any god you believe in" or "a higher power", and I don't welcome unprompted messages about how god accepts me. People should have the basic courtesy to avoid that kind of rhetoric when speaking to people who haven't consented to it, and pride is a place where you should be especially cautious about spreading religious messages to others. None of this implies that there's anything wrong with being noticeably religious at pride, but there are genuine concerns about displays of religion that this post just glosses over.
Exactly.
That said if I see someone in hijab at Pride I’m just happy they’re there.
So all or y'all hold this view: Why cops don't belong at pride? because ACAB Why ACAB? Well you see they are volunterally part of an organization that does harm to queer people specifically. It doesn't matter if you're a good person personally, because you are showing support for an organization that has opposed queer liberation forever, and has let abuse go rampant without any of the "good guys" speaking. But you won't apply that to, for example, Catholics
THIS, EXACTLY THIS!!! I have suffered tremendously at the hands of the catholic church. Yet i have been called horrible for calling out that organization. People are all for listening to victims and supporting them. People can be so loud about how cops are dangerous. But i cant call out the people who did nothing. I cant call out the people suporting the organization that aided in my abuse. >!solitary confinement, being forced to eat puke, beatings, rape. All before i was 9!< Why am I not allowed to be angry. Why are the people who stand by and watch individuals do this called monsters but when it happens on an organizational level I cant call them out. Why should i accept these people. >!I am 26. I cant even experience my sexuality because of what these people did to me. I am still too afraid of being touched to even live my life as my true self. They took my childhood, my adolesence and my 20s.!< That organization is still ising its power to opress queer people. It is still using its power to protect predators. I will never accept catholics. They share the same space at pride as cops. ACAB and ACAB
I'm not against religious people at Pride but there is something incredibly ironic about accepting open demonstrations of faiths whose adherents have been and many still are anti-LGBT while kink is being pushed out of it.
Nobody can figure out if pride is a party first or a political statement first. Most of the other discourse is downstream from that.
you belong at pride and I sure as fuck won't make you feel unsafe - but I'm never gonna feel safe around you and that's just the way it is
This post is pretty clearly strawmanning a very serious and important argument by conflating "religion at Pride" with "religious people/people belonging to a religion at Pride". Being religious and being queer/being an ally are obviously not contradictory, it provably happens all the time. However there is no major organised religion in the world that unequivocally tolerates and/or accepts queer identities. Every single major religion is at the very least complicit in, if not directly responsible for the systemic oppression of queer people around the world. The point of the arguement "No religion at Pride" is to prevent (usually non-queer) people from proselytising/preaching or otherwise explicitly advocating for their religion at pride. If you do that, then you are obfuscating your religion's systemic crimes against the queer community and thus complicit in them. Pretending that people are genuinely arguing for excluding people from Pride for wearing traditional clothing of any kind, whether it has religious connotations or not, is ludicrous. As if queer religious people aren't the most aware and critical of the problems and contradiction between their faiths and their identities, because they're obviously the most affected. This is not a real thing and this OOP needs to touch grass.
Oppressing the two most powerful groups in the world seems like a wild idea.
There's been a lot of posts complaining about corporations at Pride lately and I understand that sentiment but I'm gonna be honest with you, I find it far less egregious seeing a rainbow painted Walmart sign at Pride than a religious symbol. At the end of the day Walmart doesn't have a 2000 year long on-going history of trying to eradicate us and they at least pay a non-zero amount of tax (even if they still dodge a lot of it) All I'm saying is that I hope people are being consistent and that no one moaning about Pride being co-opted by corpos is actually ok with religious displays there
Mmm yeah as a person with Religious Trauma^tm I would not go to a pride event where religious people were made to feel unwelcome. Partially because I have experienced a buttload of discrimination and othering from others bcoz of the religion I used to practice, and that has been as impactful on my psyche as the religious trauma itself. If I see a religious person at pride, its my responsibility to stay away from them instead of making them leave just bcoz their presence makes me uncomfortable.
Our booth at Pride this year was next to a booth for supportive pastors. I know plenty of non-homophobic religious people, and I am one. You’re never gonna do anything but exclude allies and queer people if you’re dedicated to pretending that all religious people must be homophobic by doctrine. That’s just the excuse homophobes make for themselves - stop agreeing with them.
Religion isn't inherent, it's a system of beliefs and organizations you choose to associate with. It's perfectly reasonable to judge people for who they associate with and the beliefs they declare. Religionists hate people bringing up the trauma that they cause though, so caution is warranted with them
Yeah religion is not an innate trait like race, sex, gender, neurodivergence, etc. I agree you shouldn't directly harass them but it's much more analogous to a political party or philosophy and I can absolutley agree that some of those probably shouldn't be welcome at Pride
Religious people at pride = yes People using religion to justify bigotry at pride = no Everybody should be welcome, not all actual personal expressions are welcome
I'm a lesbian who experienced prejudice from (some, not all) religious members of my family and community, and I experienced this philosophy personally at a pride event I recently volunteered at. The pride event is a relatively new one for my community and a local LGBT+ friendly church has been instrumental in helping us put it on from the start. They let the guiding organization use a spare room for their office all year, they loan us equipment for free, they host concessions, give food and water to the volunteers, and let us use their space as a green room for drag performers. One of the church's employees even helps organize the events, though they never try and step in to take over. They're respectful, caring, kind, and generous. I'm not religious anymore, but I love their brand of religion and they are always welcome at pride. By contrast, we had a non-affiliated Christian dude with a megaphone outside the event shouting at people that they were 'captivated by the spirit of the Devil' and needed to repent or go to hell. That shit can fuck right off at Pride (and everywhere else, for that matter). I definitely understand feeling wary about religious people if you've been hurt before by them, but religion does not automatically make you a bad person (in the same way that being atheist doesn't automatically make you a good person).
A douche with a megaphone is just a megadouche.
Yup I agree; like I know gay trump supporters, would it be dandy for them to show up to a pride parade with maga hats and trump flags? Like to me it's obvious that would not go over well and I think most would agree. But it's interesting that some people can understand why that wouldn't be ok, without understanding why religious stuff at pride would be rude
Someone being religious and attending pride is not the same as bringing religious stuff to pride. Being religious and attending pride is not the same as wearing a MAGA hat. A MAGA hat aligns you with a particular person and his beliefs. The equivalent would be wearing apparel with a particular religious organisation on it. I agree if you're actively repping a homophobic religious organisation, that's different. But simply having a religion (which may well not be homophobic), is not the same as actively representing a particular organisation or belief system.
Provided that the religious people at pride are genuinely there for the celebration and not trying to convert people then they're welcome.
I really don't get the "leopards ate my face comment". not that I agree with that person but I just don't think leopards ate my face is applicable here. there's nothing hypocritical about an atheist being against religious people.
"Fashist" lol
So you wouldn't actually notice the religious folks at pride because pride doesn't have anything to do with religion. It's just part of the community that you're supposed to help nourish and make better. The angry yelling ones, they've got it wrong, but the paradox of tolerance is a bitch and fundamentalism (the act of being fundamentally wrong) is a hell of a drug. Which brings up a good question: Would the queer community want Christians to more outwardly support equal rights *as Christians* instead of just as neighbors?
Religious people obviously have the right to be at pride but that doesn’t mean that everyone automatically has to treat them with respect or feel safe around them. It’s a free country and people are allowed to judge others for their beliefs and actions. I have not personally met any religious people who weren’t massive scumbags or violent sociopaths so I naturally wouldn’t feel comfortable in a space with anyone who is visibly part of a group that largely believed in killing and oppressing queer minorities. They are still allowed to exist and come to pride if they want, regardless of their own personal reasons.
Obviously we should never discrimate against people for being Muslim or Christian. But it also makes sense for someone who's openly LGBTQ to feel more threatened by someone who's core ideology deems their sexuality a sin or something to be punished.
I'm sorry but if you're "religion" says I should be stoned to death for just me being me and not hurting anyone but you have it written down how much you need to pay after the fact of you rapping someone or that 50+% of the population shouldn't have a word in government y'all can suck my dick
A lot of people on these discussions always default on 'Abrahamic' religions (which is on itself a terrible reductionism of Judaism, Christianism and Islam, despite their many differences), and always talk about religion as if it was something people could choose and pick at convenience. Same difference when refusing to acknowledge the sociocultural component of religion. For a lot of people, their religious practice isn't as much about belief than it is about taking part in their society and the culture they come from. Trying to paint someone's religion as "your imaginary friend" shows a lack (or refusal) of understanding. I want to blame Richard Dawkins for this one, but honestly this problem is far older. It's painting the person with a different culture and a different look as "the other". That enemy to be rejected without question and without examination. Which is a very colonialist way to look at a different culture.
its easy to say this shit if you havent personally experienced individuals or your country actively opressing you with religious nonsense or have distanced yourself from it. im from poland and i do feel inherently unsafe near someone wearing a cross. im ok with being called a bigot here, my desire to be nice is far lesser than my desire for safety. im not stupid, i know what this religion has done and is doing to people like me and im not interested in playing along. someones religion isnt an independent parasite that attached itself to them, it is a choice to identify as (member of religion) publically. im sick and fucking tired of minorities but especially the lgbt community trying to welcome people who openly support systems that keep us down. maybe its easier if the church in your area is accepting of women and gays and everyone else but i am not in this situation and i will not pretend i feel anything else than disgust when i hear people mention putting money on the platter in church this is like telling vegans to be a-ok with people going to their parades and rallies wearing fur (its ok it might have been made out of the mythical roadkill that appears in pro-animal product arguments). or like telling POC to be ok with people going to their parades and rallies wearing a confederate flag t shirt (they might just be history buffs). its ok to recognise who supports you, doesnt support you and supports your oppressors. you should never be forced to feel ok with organisations that have a long history of and still do cause us pain and suffering
"If you don't want an ideology that despises you and aims to hurt you at an event to celebrate you, then you are a literal fascist." Very sound logic.
bigoted ideologies don't belong at pride. unless that ideology is religious. then it's fine.
Ah, yes, definitely a real atheist with a real position of "god is real but isn't invited to (checks notes) fucking pride??? Yeah, definitely a real issue on the left and totally not a manufacturered drama. Literally not a single fucking person has ever said anything about anything. Wtf
I’ve never seen so many different viewpoints on an Internet forum not have negative votes, feels like some rare thing like a shooting star.
I hate when people justify an opposition to antitheism with examples of beliefs that not all antitheists have. People should not be shunned for wearing religious paraphernalia at pride, or in general. Even those rooted in misogyny.
Yeah. Quebec banning the Hjab is just going to limit opprotunities for Muslims girls and women. Not Good.
At my last pride I went to 2 of the vendors were churches and while I don't want to interact with them due to religious trauma I can respect that others might.
So glad most comments are calling out the BS in this post.
Passing around a book that says I should die isn’t a fucking skin color
if a god exists, I doubt he'd be on the side of his followers who are massive bigots and assholes. doesn't Christianity proclaim that God loves everyone? so if a religious person is NOT being a massive bigot and asshole, then it stands to reason that they view their God in a similar way, so yes, God as a religious person at pride views him is welcome at pride
Nothing says "safe to be around queer people" than Leviticus 20:13!
Lol i just read an article about some middle eastern guys beating up a lesbian couple in canada
What about religious people making everyone feel like shit at the pride ??
This sub is fcking garbage. Brigaded by the "so much of the tolerant left!" type. "Curated" my ass. Or should I say, full of insufferable Westerners who never had to live a day surrounded by the worst of religious pricks and the ideology that they actively choose to support instead of being born to.
I don't think it's oppressive to ask people to not wear symbols commonly associated with Hateful ideologies when attending an event commonly full of people who are the target of said hate. Just cuz the pope said "we all good now" don't mean we good now.
If there is one Nazi sitting at the table and 3 others than there are 4 Nazis at the table…but this doesn’t apply to religious beliefs for…reasons.
I couldn’t even walk past a church without having an anxiety attack for *years* after being raised Catholic I am *not* giving those assholes a pass. Idgaf about other religions at Pride but the Catholic church is an evil colonialist pedophilic institution built on the bones of those they oppress
Same, when they can undo what they did to me ill give then a pass, until then they share the same space as cops.
What is up with all of these posts advocating for being a doormat today? Sorry your religion doesn’t belong at pride when that same religion oppresses queer people!
Big trend lately of "so much for the tolerant left!" posts.
Religious people are welcome at pride. Religious imagery, maybe not so much.
"i follow this religion that says all of LGBT burns in hell, why do you not want me at the LGBT events being openly religious?"
Fuck anti-antitheism. You can be a decent person regardless of what you believe, but by captulating to an organized religion that has actively been killing people and using their gospel as an excuse to amass power for millenia you are defending them. You can't think ACAB is reasonable without being antitheist, it's the same principle: unchecked power leads to bad people getting away with bad things.
'NO RELIGION AT PRIDE, RELIGION IS A BAD THING WHOLESALE, ALL RELIGIONS ARE TOOLS OF OPPRESSION' \*I pull my tarot cards out of a bag to play around with while relaxing at a pride event\* 'Wow are you a WITCH that's so cool that's beautiful, are you a *pagan* or a *wiccan* or what else?? You know Isis is like my patron goddess I don't really do so much to appease her but sometimes I buy crystals and arrange them in circles on my desk and I just know it makes her so so happy\~\~ I'm so glad there aren't any *real* religious people around here!'
No, we have to axe the pseudoscientific crystal stuff when it starts to no longer be cosplay too. I suppose you feel validated with that opinion too, we both win.
Like I’m not gonna stop you but I am going to avoid you
They make a good point about the police outfit. What *is* the difference? Police and religion are both overall opressive forces. Both policemen and religious people can be good people and can have pride in their sexuality. But that doesn't mean a police outfit is welcome at pride. Hell, there are plenty of gay trump voters. Would we be ok with a MAGA hat at Pride?
Yeah the difference is religion IS a choice and it backs a system of hate that has killed millions and maimed countless more
Man I love being stabbed from all sides
Folk detected, opinion rejected