I gotta say I respect people who can be good at fighting games, whether it’s the fast paced nature of melee or traditional ones like tekken or guilty gear. My brain is not made for that shit I just can’t get it at all
I can do 360 motions, charge motions, pretzel motions, and do all of them in a combo
But I can't for the life of me do a wavedash in Melee, it just feels so unnatural for my hands, and that's the most basic technique
Really if you're "memorizing a combo" you have already failed. i can't tell you the button combinations for a single one of my Baiken combos on the fly but i won't ever drop them because they're ingrained in my muscle memory. It's like a Rhyhtm game where you get more used to rapid strings of buttons the more you replay a song.
[Here's a beatiful analisis and demonstration.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGAG6WTOkVI&t)
I mean the most efficient way to incorporate anything into one’s own procedural memory (which muscle memory/ “rhythm” falls under) is to first temporarily incorporate it into one’s working memory (e.g. memorizing combos). You would still need to learn the combos initially before you develop an intuitive sense and don’t need to actively remember them.
Not directly related to what you're saying but i wanted to express a thought: have you ever put your dad or your mom on an fps game and they couldn't even process what view angle they're seeing the game from? truth is, everyone experiences that with fighting games and the people that play well are the ones that just don't care that they're bad for long enough to get good, be it because they played smash since they were little or because they have the courage to do something they're not immediately good at.
Why am i saying this? because I really like fighting games and i wish more people played them and the mindset of "i need to be good at the videogames i play" is stupid. One of my friends straight up doesn't want to play Guilty gear because she says "she's not good enough" and that breaks my heart because my other dumber friends that don't play online games like valorant will play anything and have fun.
I actually gave portal to my mom and she got decently far on her own without advice. Somehow she hadn't figured out what the portals did just that they brought her to the right path until 30 minutes in. Her journey stopped when the puzzles started requiring you to combine movement and aiming as she just couldn't graps her position in 3D space but she had fun.
I only play single-player games, and it's mostly because I don't want to hear 12-year-olds tell my they fucked my mom or whatever (and I don't find competition relaxing, and I want to relax when I'm playing games), but a good chunk of the reason is that trying to get into fighting games (and FPS, and anything involving competition between real people) basically involves getting your ass handed to you over and over and over. More power to the people who are up for that, but to me it gets depressing pretty fast.
I will say I like fighting games more than multiplayer FPS, because it's possible to win occasionally out of dumb luck and button-mashing, while my experience the handful of times I've played multiplayer FPS was pretty much, "Oh, I died. Oh, someone was camping at the respawn point and killed me immediately. Oh, I walked for ten seconds and then someone sniped me." I felt like I spent more time staring at the loading screen than actually playing.
> basically involves getting your ass handed to you over and over and over.
I got into fighting games recently and I never experienced this. I just played against people of the same skill level, and gradually added mechanics to my game plan until I felt like I understood most things. Maybe if you're playing an old game where everyone who is still playing is super good this is an issue, but even then you can just play with your friends.
Just doing a fast attack after they do a slow attack will give you a decent win rate against beginners in basically any fighting game.
Comp scenes based around games very much not designed for comp were hilarious.
Like how all major TF2 leagues disable random crits but there's so many weapons with the listed downside "No random crits".
I see your TF2, and I raise you [gestures vaguely at old licensed fighting games], but especially [Sailor Moon S.](http://newchallenger.net/w/index.php/Sailor_Moon_S)
One of the worst characters in the game can potentially run down the timer for a win by backdashing over and over again for full invincibility frames. It does not get prettier from here, and somehow, there’s an incredibly dedicated community for this game anyway
Although the difference between games like TF2 or Melee and games like Sailor Moon S, is that TF2/Melee are trying to take themselves seriously. Meanwhile Sailor Moon S is a goofy game that people tend to pick up just because of how stupid it is.
Sailor Moon S is not even slightly trying to be a balanced game but TF2 is a game with more man hours put designing it's gameplay than have been spent trying to reach the moon( Source: a dream )
Blorbo explanation: Yukari Yakumo from Touhou is an ancient Youkai with the power to open “gaps” that, among other things, can act as portals. One of her favorite special attacks is to portal in a train to run someone over. The fandom considers the idea of this ancient, super powerful pseudo-demon-goddess just running people over with random trains to be hilarious.
The problem with random crits is that you're more likely to get one if you've done more damage recently, so in a competitive format, minor skill differences could snowball into one team crushing the other because of random crits. It also makes the tactical choice between Kritskreig or stock über pretty obvious
Yeah, that’s the big complaint with random crits. They’re not particularly random because they’re weighted towards people who have already killed a lot. I feel like this could be fixed by either switching it around so players with less kills can have their day, simply making them _actually random,_ or just removing them altogether.
Exactly, the stated purpose of random crits is to break stalemates and keep the game interesting, but the way their designed runs counter to that stated goal
Do stalemates even exist in TF2? Aside from a few select gamemodes like Capture the Flag, most fights are pretty win-or-lose. Usually one team _wants_ a stalemate so they can run out the clock and win. (Unless the whole point is giving the opposing team a chance, but I don’t see how random crits would solve that problem.)
They can when engineers get entrenched enough and their team protects their sentry and dispensers. Theoretically the attacking team could theorize a way past or an organized push, but in casual you almost never see that level of cooperation
I always thought it funny that a game called **Team** Fortress Two that has a lot of mechanics built around teamwork also has one of the most uncooperative playerbases to ever exist.
Yeah, but that'd require my teammates to protect my buildings. My personal experience is that nobody gives a shit about the support classes if it requires the tiniest of efforts.
This is true of normal TF2, but a competitive level they basically only play symmetrical matches where neither team can win by defending (king of the hill and 5 Capture Points are basically the only competitive game modes). In both of these, a team either wins by holding mid for 3 minutes total (which lends itself to defense but only after it’s captured) or by capturing all five points (where any class that is really good at defense but lacks offense is worthless because you need to be able to rapidly transition between attacking and defending).
I don’t like comp TF2 very much because it inherently ignores a lot of the game, Including my two favorite modes, attack/defend and payload. With the way it’s played at a high level, it’s basically a whole other game.
There are multiple formats of comp TF2. 6v6 (which is what you're referring to), which only plays 5cp and KOTH. And Highlander (9v9, one of each class) which plays Payload/KOTH and cp\_steel.
I am aware of Highlander, but it’s less popular than sixes and it’s harder to watch because it’s 18 total players instead of 12, the same number or even higher than most other esports (league, DotA, Siege, and CS have 10, overwatch has 12). If I had my way for how comp TF2 is best played, it would be prolander no 5CP, which does exist but is very uncommon.
Yeah, I’m not fond of comp either, mostly because I suck at it and I feel like TF2 isn’t really meant to be a very competitive game at its core. It’s a goofy class based shooter where you can hit people with a wet fish and throw bottles of piss at your teammates to keep them from burning to death. A competitive playstyle just feels antithetical to the tone, but whatever floats peoples boats I guess.
I think that the tone of the game is contrary to it, but TF2 has (besides random crits) some of the most in depth and high skill ceiling gameplay of any game ever made. Mechanically, besides the bugs, TF2 is basically perfect. From that perspective it could make an amazing competitive game, but the way it IS played competitively is boring and ignores a lot of the games most interesting features- the meta for the standard casual format is so locked down that 5 classes aren’t played and almost none of the 170 or so weapons get used. It’s a shame.
That's a problem with 6v6, the low amount of players and the 5cp maps FORCE generalist classes to be played 90% of the time. And 6s players are not particularly against it, because the said generalist classes have advanced and high skill ceiling movement mechanics. It all results in a very fast paced gamemode played on semi-open maps and with an insane skill ceiling. Buffing specialists like heavy or engineer in 6s is just gonna put said classes under more restrictions not to slow the game down.
Highlander is good too, but forcing 1 of each class into each team leads to a serious slowdown due to all the specialists having to work together. Sniper with an engineer nest behind them isn't fun to take out.
About 130/170 weapons being awfully underpowered doesn't help gameplay variety either.
If I had to design a comp gamemode, it would be focused on koth as payload is slow and 5cp is generalist heaven. It would be like 6s except there would be 7 players on each team and 2 or 1 are always gonna be specialists, with class limit of specialists restricted to 1.
Attacking a well coordinated team that gives callouts to their Snipers with 5000+ hours of game knowledge and protects their medic is pretty insane, in fact, a lot of offensive pushes can just get negated by voice chat.
Halo dominated MLG for a few games, and as such it led to increasingly deranged obsessions with what counted as “cheating” in competitive play, with almost 100% of the things being built into the game. Except, Halo 2 had BXR, which was a glitch button combo and all the competitive gamers were enraged when it wasn’t in Halo 3. Competitive gamers also hated Halo 3’s equipment and always disabled those. They hated Reach’s loadouts and armor abilities, and those were disabled. The “noob combo”, a two-hit ranged kill that requires a charged shot from one gun before switching to the other and landing a headshot, was introduced in the first game as a tactic you learn in the first level of the campaign. It is one of the single most hated things and is as derided as the name suggests.
Edit: I just want it to be known that as someone who played an ungodly amount of Halo 3 and Reach matchmaking, the only time a match’s outcome was solely the result of equipment, armor abilities, and loadouts it was because the H3 power drain was a bit OP vs the previously OP vehicles. An AOE throwable EMP with a continuous spherical EMP with a radius around ~21-28 feet that lasted for 7 seconds and caused any vehicle in it to shut down for several seconds, refreshed as long as it was in the EMP field. A bit too powerful.
> Halo 2 had BXR
so *that's* why the battle rifle is called that in Destiny 2...
EDIT: \*googles what it is* oh so it's just the Blunt Execution Rounds the gun can roll with, but as a bug. Cool.
And as a spawn weapon everyone had in every match that had default spawning weapons. The Halo 2 Battle Rifle was the default weapon. It was basically a faster noob combo minus range? Melee Noob Combo.
Technically, the Manmelter’s only listed downside is “no random critical hits,” but not doing extra damage to burning players could be considered a downside even though it’s not listed in the stats and is more the lack of an upside.
ETA the Flying Guillotine also has no listed downsides other than “no random critical hits,” but it’s also a pretty weird weapon so it’s not really an exception either.
not really sure how that's what you find ridiculous when valve decided that randomly one-shotting people was a mechanic they should put into their arena shooter
Even some of the intentional stuff is kinda weird. This is a comment about port priority.
Let’s say you grab your opponent at the same time they grab you. In ultimate, you both just bounce back as if you both mashed out. But in Melee? WHOEVER HAS THEIR CONTROLLER PLUGGED INTO THE FIRST PORT GETS IT.
So higher ports must suck right? No. Because this completely arbitrary mechanic mixes with the bugginess this game is known for.yes say you get a grab as port 2. For some reason, you get an extra frame of hot sun to work with than your opponent, even if they use the exact same throw as you. This leads to stupid shit like port exclusive combos.
So lower ports win grab trades, while higher ports get better grabs. For some reason.
[There's a great AsumSaus video on that exact topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA8kpvTBh8Q&t=8s&ab_channel=AsumSaus)
(stellar channel btw, I'd recommend you check him out if you're even slightly interested in smash)
I know exactly what you’re referencing and I must say: the single extra frame of hit stun rarely - if ever - matters. It’s usually made to sound like a bigger deal than it is.
I keep on seeing Armada leaving a tournament cuz of a controller brought up as a "haha smash is STUPID and DUMB actually" and I dunno fair I guess but A. If you go to 50 tournaments a year at least are you really gonna wanna play one with a weird, bad feeling controller when you could just take a break and get ready for the next one and B. UCF (Universal Controller Fix) has been a thing at every major tournament for years now and completely fixes the problem, making any controller work just fine
If I might just interject a little, the real reason a lot of the broader fighting game community doesn’t like Smash as a whole is-
>The smell.
That’s most popular nerd fandoms.
>Children’s party game?
I could probably hand some kids good controllers and a copy of Them’s Fighting Herds, and they’d have a blast too. But obviously, while they’re fighting back a little against the spirit of the game, at the end of it all, you can almost do anything competitively.
>Just everything that happened at EVO 2020?
…well it’s why I left, but that’s not indicative of everyone in the community.
>Do you have a point yet?
I think the actual reason the FGC doesn’t like Smash is just how damn complicated it is compared to non-platform fighters. When I hit somebody in a fighting game, they (usually) can’t do anything to cut my combo prematurely short, and the added mobility means that, in addition to having to make reads all the damn time, playing keepaway is so strong that it ends up weeding out a lot of Smash’s stages to not curse us with half-hour sets.
what's funny is that I know a LOOOOT of smash players who say they wanna get into fighting games but think that the combos and motion inputs are too complicated while DI and SDI and Teching in smash is all second nature to them. I think it just kinda depends on what you grew up with
>!Let's be real tho, the real reason the main FGC doesn't like Smash Bros is that a lot of traditional fighting games were in arcades in the 90's so a lot of different games had communities/players that intermingled while Smash was a home-console exclusive and as such kinda grew it's own community that didn't really interact w/ the greater FGC until they (the smash community) were trying to gain legitimacy. It's why there's so many exclusively Smash events and why when big tournaments like EVO or CEO have both traditional fighters and smash, a lot of people will play multiple traditional fighters or Smash but not both. As fighting games become more accessible and main-stream it'll happen again with each new game. It's already happening w/ GG Strive. The future is now!<
There’s a tweet that used to exist of a Smash player accidentally doing Ryu’s proper DP input (which gets rewarded with a stronger version, an intentional mechanic in Smash), thought he discovered something new, and wanted to publicize the sweet new tech he discovered as “the mama mia”, before everybody on Twitter came after him and got the tweet deleted. If you can teach a Smash player motion inputs, they *will* feel like a god.
Also, for anyone trying to join the dark side, BlazBlue Cross Tag exists. It’s all quarter circles. It’s got a huge cast (including Blorbo). It has functional netcode. Do it.
just wait until Project L comes out w/ no motion input and literally dozens of blorbos and waifus. You're gonna see people joining the dark side alright
Project L is *also* a simplified tag battler with waifus, husbandos, and FBI open ups; I’m just trying to get them in the door earlier.
Also the people of Runeterra mysteriously seem to have a weird sexual dimorphism where the men are allowed to be interesting, and women are usually slapped into the same fucking body type and personality over and over again. Wake me up if they add Jhin.
The weird sexual dimorphism makes more sense when you find out about the laundry list of sexual harassment accusations Riot executives have had levied against them
Just for a laugh, I decided to look over the entire champion list to see who has my attention at all (ignoring LoR’s superior remake of a lot of their designs and overall character coughRivencoughVicough), and:
Women: 2, both very much cutesy designs with decent backstories (Lillia and Poppy)
Men: 7, almost none of whom are manly man men (Akshan, Galio, Jhin, Kled, Swain, Sylas, and Taric, my beloved)
~~Please Rito I beg you to give Fiora a purpose besides honor or so help me god I will join your writing staff~~
I believe we may have at last found a shared Blorbo
Though for me it was mainly because Fiora's PROJECT skin is absolutely amazing but I did actually come to enjoy the character after that
Now if only I could actually play her
I think I liked Fiora a little while back, but it’s been a couple years, and while you can imagine how happy I’d be to have a second nickel for honorable redheads with rapiers, I’ve said before that I like it when characters have a bit of depth to them besides “I am on the side of good/evil and might have dead parents, and that’s all you need to know.”
All they have to do is give Fiora another hobby unrelated to near certainly kicking my ass for to take the last name Laurent. I cannot live on girlboss alone.
I counted 19, and had to question myself an additional 3 times on if just being murderous counts. Jesus.
Edit: also like half the recent releases are exactly this, starting at about Seraphime all the way up to Gwen, Zeri, and especially Nilah
Yep. Someone over there is down bad.
I first noticed it around Zeri, but it should've been obvious at Seraphine. She completely overshadowed Samira, despite the latter having this amazing swashbuckling daredevil design. And while I can't say Samira doesn't fall solidly into the stereotypical Riot Female Character Design, you can't deny [she has at least *some* style.](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Samira_0.jpg)
I play smash and traditional fighters
I just don't play Melee, because as much as smash players say traditional fighters are more complicated, nothing comes close to trying to use the techniques melee requires for basic movement. I can't stand playing a game where something as simple as movement requires such an intensely difficult technique as the melee wavedash. Just let me throw out 360 command grab inputs please.
> Just everything that happened at EVO 2020?
I must've missed that. The last Melee drama I remember coming out of EVO was the Melee crowd booing when the then-current Smash winner was crowned, but that was before 2020.
Though let me tell you, as a person whose hobbies include 'fighting games as a spectator sport', I got so much entertainment out of everything surrounding Melee. The game itself is kinda whatever, but the players? Let's just say I'm subscribed to r/hobbydrama for a reason.
Well, to put it mildly, what happened at EVO 2020 was EVO 2020 vanishing into thin air over a hell of a lot of allegations all at once, including the then organizer of EVO himself. A bunch of pros dropped out of the sky that way, and it was kind of my last straw for even thinking about participating.
Really? I think smash has to be the sinplest one out there. Maybe the skill level is different but I wouldn't say it's any higher or lower, just more positioning based than other games
I think the skill floor in smash is a basement, for other figthing ganes the skill floor is an actual floor or a step or two in a staircase. Stunning and stun locking just never feel good, always felt clunky. Not being able to hit because someone tickled you was wack. Super armour in smash fixed that to some extend
Depends on how you define "skill floor." To know all of the mechanics and inputs, sure smash has less and the inputs themselves aren't as complicated. But to be a consideration at even a local level, the technical requirements for melee are much higher than for most typical fighting games. Wavedashing, a fundamental movement mechanic all but necessary for competitive melee, can take weeks of practice to execute semi-reliably. You want to touch the ground while doing an attack? Press z in this window if you don't want your lag doubled and to get full punished. There's one guy who can kinda compete in pittsburgh without these things but his mental game is so absurdly good he can get away with it. Sure, you can do all the developer-intended actions pretty easy compared to most games, but not everything is developer-intended, is it?
There's an additional reason, which is that Melee players are notoriously insecure. I don't think its nearly as bad as it used to be like a decade ago, but Melee fans to me are still synonymous with getting really pissed off at people for not playing a fun party game correctly, looking down on anybody who won't learn tech so hand-mangling it literally gives players arthritis, and constantly screaming about how Nintendo is directly victimizing them for not making smash 4/Ultimate EXACTLY like Melee. The issue isn't that they are playing a children's party game, its that they openly resent and in some cases attack people who treat it like a children's party game because that's how they enjoy it, though again this has improved significantly.
They can have that Brawl's anti-competitive stuff was a bad idea though. That's very true.
*Image Transcription: Tumblr*
---
**captainsnoop**
Melee players have to cheat at their own game for people to take their game seriously. They disguise the bugs they exploit as “advanced tech” to trick people in to taking them seriously, but in reality they’re just glitching out a broken party game.
---
**yiffmaster**
wasn’t there a tournament a few weeks ago where someone needed a controller with a specific defect that’s found in 1-in-50 gamecube controllers and is required to do a certain technique, didn’t find any such controllers in the tournament’s supplies and left because he couldn’t play competitively without it
---
**yiffmaster**
[*A screenshot of an article headline, reading:*]
> # *Smash* 'God' Drops Out Of Tournament Because His Controller Isn't Properly Malfunctioning
>
> Eric Van Allen
[*End screenshot.*]
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^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
genuinely hilarious that people will still call wavedashing a "bug" when its literally just
1) jump and airdash into the ground
2) slide a little when you land because of how fast you were going
like yeah, wavedashing became a lot more centralizing than anyone could have expected because of how versatile it is but at no point is the game ever "glitching" when you wavedash
It's not an intended mechanic though. It's something they picked up and thought was cool and all, but it's hardly something that they went out and designed the game around.
At no point have I assigned any virtue to the designers' intentions.
I just think people are deluding themselves by pretending that Wavedashing was part of Sakurai's grand master plan or something, rather than an unintentional side effect of air dodge speed being transferred to the ground.
You’re p much arguing a game can’t evolve. You ever seen any kind of platformer or DS-esque speedruns? They’re full of genuinely unintended bugs, doesn’t mean people can’t enjoy themselves anyway. Who cares if games evolve or people find unintended quirks?
Does it even matter as long as people are having fun? Let people enjoy things however they want
>You’re p much arguing a game can’t evolve.
...No I'm not. What the hell are you talking about?
How does "Wavedashing was not an intentional mechanic in Melee" translate in your head to "games can't evolve, people aren't allowed to have fun with unintended quirks"?
I literally explicitly said that I'm not assigning virtue to it, IE: I'm not calling it a good or bad thing.
How about instead of making up shit to pretend that I said, you actually talk about what I *DID* say? Christ, the level of reading comprehension on this sub is atrocious.
It hardly matters whether it was a part of some grand plan. It became a part of the game because of momentum mechanics, the developers knew about it, and it was intentionally left in the game as-is. We even have evidence for it, that being the updated releases of of melee that include such things as nerfs for fox and buffs for kirby (which isn’t used in tournament because it’s less hype). It’s still in those versions even though they knew about it prior to the original versions’ releases. Wavedashing is less of a glitch than game and watch. As in, the whole character.
A bug is unintended behaviour.
It was noticed in development, and they decided it was more effort than it was worth to fix.
It was still never in the design documentation.
I feel like design documentation is an extremely shit way to judge what is and isn't a bug. The amount of games with comprehensive design documentation available to the public is very low.
meteor cancel is at least intuitive enough to do accidentally casually and being meteor smashed doesn't come up as often.
l cancel, on the other hand, doesn't have as intuitive of an input and is so universally common that it basically serves to bring up the skill floor for no reason
Meteor cancelling isn't common because it completely fucks up the risk/reward balance of a shitload of moves. So those moves don't get used. Also, L-cancelling is something you can do accidentally casually, by trying to shield as you land from an aerial attack
L-cancelling is stupid, but because it's universal, it's less damaging than having a move be rendered useless because meteors were OP in smash 64
I agree with you on L-cancelling, it's basically sacrificing your real life hand health for an advantage in-game, so I'm glad it was removed from later games
This is apropos of nothing but I fucking hate Quake 1's movement. That little slide upon movement, like I'm on ice at all times, makes the game absolutely hellish to play. Jumping isn't great either, once again feels like trash, but regardless at least the game is fun enough when you're used to it's bullshit. DUSK, 20 years later, feels like what Quake had the potential for, and feels absolutely magnificent to play (that autojump button especially is amazing).
the thing that bugs me any time this post goes around is how it fails to mention that a *great deal* of effort from the community has gone toward standardizing the way controller inputs are handled by the game
seriously, UCF is a testament to how much focus the community puts towards accessibility
It is the exact opposite of both of those things
It's not cool, it looks janky as hell with characters scooting along the floor with no apparent source of momentum.
It's not intuitive, the motion required to do it does not imply that it should generate an actionable slide at all.
couldn't disagree more. if your problem is the physics of it why don't you complain about double jump. Sliding on the ground or off of/on to a platform is fun, cool, and makes perfect sense as the next available movement option after running, jumping, and rolling.
Oh, mechanically it's an interesting mechanic... for Melee
The problem is the lack of animation for it, also the unintuitive input
Newer platform fighters shouldn't have similar mechanics require the weird jump then a split second later airdodge diagonal down because that's fucked and is a relic of wavedash being unintentional. It should just be one input if you want people to use it regularly. Also it needs a proper, dedicated animation that isn't just a sliding crouch
Unsure of the details but I think she has some really unbeatable combo? If you look up "little red riding hood shrek super slam" on youtube im sure there's videos
Technically the stick bug isn't *required* for perfect pivots, but doing them without it is ungodly difficult. For those who don't know what this is about but are still in the comments for some reason, a perfect pivot is when you make your character instantaneously go from running full-speed in one direction to the other. This mechanic has appeared in... I don't know if *most* since I'm pretty unfamiliar with a lot of them but at least **some** Smash Bros games afterwards, including Ultimate, but Melee's version is super dumb. You do a perfect pivot by smashing your analog stick from one end of its gate to the other at a speed that avoids ever setting off a certain flag. If you don't pull it off, you character will do a little slide first, which all you need to know about is that it's very bad. Either way, with a normal controller, this trick has at most a window of a single frame (one 60th of a second), and that's only if you perfectly happen to time it at the start of one frame, which is, to say the least, unlikely. However, there's a certain controller malfunction that makes this considerably easier. Some, and inf fact *most* competitive Melee players refuse to play unless they have access to a controller that can do it easier since it's a crucial mechanic.
That just makes it seem more like Armada was a giant prick for refusing to play with a normal controller.
If the technique is possible on a normal controller, but made easier by a malfunctioning one, well, that's pretty much the textbook definition of a mechanical advantage, and it's exactly what competitive games should be trying to avoid. Everyone should use standard controllers, not the slightly broken ones that make the technique easier
Fun fact: For a considerable amount of time, the competitive scene (or anyone, really) didn't *know* about the stick bug. Iirc, some players were insistent that other people's controllers pulled off perfect pivots easier, and some guy was like "Fine if you give me money to do it I'll take apart the controllers and *prove* that the're the same" but instead found the malfunction.
And I see why it may come across as a mechanical advantage but the Melee community... Well the way I see it it's not that they *don't* see it that way, it's that they dislike the alternative even more. See, without the stick bug, the frame perfect input is as good as a coin toss, and the difference it makes in gameplay is crucial. In many cases, it's the difference between hitting and getting hit. And leaving that up to chance is, well... Just a proto version of Brawl tripping. And we know how much *everyone* hated that.
I suppose insisting that only the malfunctioning controllers are valid controllers for competitive play would be a workable option, but only if you have enough and you can be sure you aren't going to run out of them. But I'm not sure that's possible, and if it's not. You should just deal with it not being a reliable strategy.
I suppose everyone playing Melee could switch over to a mod that makes the technique easier, that would probably be the best solution
God, I hate this screenshot so much. I've seen it too many times to count now, and it's just nothing but surface level shit talk from idiots who never even took the time to understand what makes the game interesting or fun in the first place
Captainsnoop has no idea what they’re talking about
> They disguise the bugs the exploit as “advanced tech”
Wavedashing and L-cancelling are both intentional, with the latter even being a thing in 64
> they’re just glitching out a broken children’s party game
And? People are free to enjoy games in ways the developers might not have intended and people have found Melee is generally more enjoyable to play competively than it is as a party game, so why does the fact it’s a “party game” matter?
I'm probably alone in this, but I've never understood calling Smash a "party game" either. In my house a "party game" always meant a minigame collection, which may or may not be tied together with a board game or something. Mario Party, Raving Rabbids, etc. If the only qualification to call something a party game is that you play it at parties, then Halo was one hell of a party game to us lol
They never specifically mentioned either of those things. You look me dead in the eye and tell me shit like the Super Wavedash and wobbling is intentional. I think a huge part of Melee's appeal is that it's a casual party game thoroughly broken and contorted into something resembling a competitive game. It's utter nonsense, but it works because of it.
No, L cancelling was absolutely intentional. Like, a tutorial to do it was literally listed on both the Melee and Smash 64 websites under the name "smooth landing".
There are people who are assholes about competitive Melee and the first guy is probably one of them. I know wavedashing and L-canceling aren't glitches. Melee isn't the most polished game, but it's not accurate to say that competitive play requires cheating.
I was compelled to post this because A. I find the Armada thing really funny and B. the last time it was posted was a year ago and the flair on it was "annual Melee slander".
There's 2 types of fighting game players: Fighters and Gamers. Fighters like the stimulation of a digital sparring session. Gamers need to Win and Beat the Game at any cost.
My favorite moments in fighting games have come from being read like a fucking book (I’m never going to forget getting hit with round start DP for airdashing in like a goober), or both of us agreeing to blow off steam with a character neither of us know. Losing is a part of the learning process, and by god I lost.
While you were busy having premarital ranked, I was studying the blade with my friends
Facts, being humbled by a truly better player is one of the best feelings in a fighting game, especially when you pride yourself on being good at them. I go into a match hoping someone will be good enough to make me work for it, that's the only time I learn clutch strategies, through sheer panic.
The first time I Saw The Line and fucking wombo-combo'd a way better player than me with Lucas in Project M made me completely understand how some people could spend thousands of hours honing their skill in various Smash titles.
I then got fucking shredded through my remaining stocks, but it was still fun.
Melee is coded with duck tape and prayers. They made the game with over double the original roster size in like 2 years it's miracle it's not more broken
Melee is an anomaly. Never forget that there's a glitch where a tree in the background can temporarily delete the attack hitboxes on two sword fighters and nobody knows how or why it happens
Smash melee is the only true e-"SPORT". Its scene is almost entirely using propriety hardware/software at this point, it's basically open source, and the Corp that made the game initially has no affiliation with it.
Starcraft doesn’t have a Mang0 or a Hbox or an Armada. No esport is as genuine and authentic as melee because the devs of melee and nintendo dont give a fuck about the game
if people played a game as much as melee is played for 21 years, we’d see all the bugs
like tf2, that’s 15 years old and it’s my favourite bug-ridden mess
Is it though?
Just because some people somewhere are wavedashing and L-cancelling and going sicko mode, that doesn’t mean casual Timmy and his friends have to know how to do those things to just load into the game and have a fun slapfight. The game has room for both. That’s been a great strength of Smash for the entire series that the flip of a couple settings transforms it from a casual party game to a competitive fighter - how many other games are that versatile?
The advanced tech isn’t “necessary” unless you want to play against strong enough opponents that you need to do the advanced tech to compete - but if that’s your intention, then you’re definitionally not a casual.
Oof, you could smell the intense snobbery and insecurity emanating from captainsnoop a mile away. They focused a lot on Smash Melee players having a need for people to take them seriously. Sounds like projection to me. That or captainsnoop is just a prick. Not that those two are mutually exclusive I suppose.
People just can't accept the impossibility of having a game that's casual accessible while also being optimized for competitive environments.
The fact that smash is being played competitively was probably never foreseen by Nintendo
I don't see any reason why having both has to be impossible. Melee *was* a very successful casual game, in fact the best selling game on its console and it's also one of the most successful esports of all time by longevity, which is impressive considering not just the lack of dev support but active developer hostility.
I think the bigger issue is that people (sakurai) can't accept that it's okay to have advanced tech, and that trying to level the playing field between casuals and competitive players accomplishes nothing for casuals and hurts competitive players.
What always gets me about Smash tournaments, is that no one there actually wants to play Smash. They disable items, finals smashes, any stage with any element of randomness, they ban half the characters etc etc. They ban everything that makes “Smash Bros” “Smash Bros.” So why not just play a “proper” fighting game and leave Smash to be a fun party-style game?
Because at the heart of every smash game is an interesting and compelling fighting game which functions differently enough from traditional fighters to barely be in the same genre as something like Street Fighter. Plus people want to play as characters from their favorite games as their competitive main.
So why ban "Everything that makes smash bros"? Because while they're fun to play with casually they can't coexist with a competitive ruleset. Stages above a certain size allow you to just gain the tiniest lead on your opponent and run away until the timer is done, not to mention stage hazards and wall infinites. Final smashes are overcentralizing and mess with character balance (they're basically a "take a free stock) button, but in 4 and brawl especially for some characters they suck which is a huge disadvantage.
Other items are extremely random as good items will spawn directly on top of one player. On top of that, once a player has one good item like a strong pokeball or an assist trophy, they can use the stage advantage it grants to try to get more good items while their opponent is at a disadvantage fighting the game, creating a super strong luck based positive feedback loop that runs counter to the idea of a fighting game.
In the early days of competitive smash, items were on, and all stages were allowed. Slowly these things changed because in a competitive environment they lessened the game by making you spend more focus on game elements than your opponent.
And why not play another fighting game and leave smash alone? Well, as I've said, other fighting games aren't that similar at all, and don't have Nintendo characters. On top of that, it's not like they're hurting anybody by playing competitively. The worst that comes of it is that you might be peer pressured into trying out the competive ruleset.
The other commenter covered most things but I’ll also say the large scale competitive community has never banned a character.
In some cases they arguably should have with how far and away more powerful the likes of Meta Knight and Bayonetta were in Brawl and 4, but those were never banned outside of a few local scenes experimenting with the decision.
Some local scenes in places with heavy linguistic diversity banned Hero for accessibility issues (the opponent may not be able to read the spell menu, which affects their ability to play around the character) but that’s for external reasons and it wasn’t common.
I think there’s a vocal minority on Twitter rn asking for Steve to be banned but I don’t think they’re being taken seriously.
>ban half the characters
literal bullshit, the only noteworthy bans have been meta knight in brawl, double cloud in smash 4 team games, and briefly hero in ultimate because of the language barrier he presents for non english speakers (and even then, those only happened at a local scale, never a literal blanket ban like you claim). in a series with 100~ characters, three bans is barely anything, especially with the EXTREMELY specific circumstances they're banned in.
>Is that nobody actually wants to play smash
Games can be enjoyed in multiple ways. Playing Smash competitively without items or silly stages is just as valid as treating it as a party game
Also I can count the amount of times a character has been successfully banned on 1 hand (and that's across the entire series), which is nowhere near "half"
I gotta say I respect people who can be good at fighting games, whether it’s the fast paced nature of melee or traditional ones like tekken or guilty gear. My brain is not made for that shit I just can’t get it at all
I can't memorize traditional fighter combos for shit but you bet your ass I can maybe beat you in smash
I can do 360 motions, charge motions, pretzel motions, and do all of them in a combo But I can't for the life of me do a wavedash in Melee, it just feels so unnatural for my hands, and that's the most basic technique
Oh I wouldn't touch melee with a ten foot pole
Really if you're "memorizing a combo" you have already failed. i can't tell you the button combinations for a single one of my Baiken combos on the fly but i won't ever drop them because they're ingrained in my muscle memory. It's like a Rhyhtm game where you get more used to rapid strings of buttons the more you replay a song. [Here's a beatiful analisis and demonstration.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGAG6WTOkVI&t)
I mean the most efficient way to incorporate anything into one’s own procedural memory (which muscle memory/ “rhythm” falls under) is to first temporarily incorporate it into one’s working memory (e.g. memorizing combos). You would still need to learn the combos initially before you develop an intuitive sense and don’t need to actively remember them.
That sounds like memorizing with extra steps
What are you, a cop?
Yo that's how I play Monster Hunter! Maybe I should take that approach to fighters, might do me some good
Me;m: I’m good at world I should try rise The Nintendo switch: bitch you thought
Not directly related to what you're saying but i wanted to express a thought: have you ever put your dad or your mom on an fps game and they couldn't even process what view angle they're seeing the game from? truth is, everyone experiences that with fighting games and the people that play well are the ones that just don't care that they're bad for long enough to get good, be it because they played smash since they were little or because they have the courage to do something they're not immediately good at. Why am i saying this? because I really like fighting games and i wish more people played them and the mindset of "i need to be good at the videogames i play" is stupid. One of my friends straight up doesn't want to play Guilty gear because she says "she's not good enough" and that breaks my heart because my other dumber friends that don't play online games like valorant will play anything and have fun.
[удалено]
I actually gave portal to my mom and she got decently far on her own without advice. Somehow she hadn't figured out what the portals did just that they brought her to the right path until 30 minutes in. Her journey stopped when the puzzles started requiring you to combine movement and aiming as she just couldn't graps her position in 3D space but she had fun.
I only play single-player games, and it's mostly because I don't want to hear 12-year-olds tell my they fucked my mom or whatever (and I don't find competition relaxing, and I want to relax when I'm playing games), but a good chunk of the reason is that trying to get into fighting games (and FPS, and anything involving competition between real people) basically involves getting your ass handed to you over and over and over. More power to the people who are up for that, but to me it gets depressing pretty fast. I will say I like fighting games more than multiplayer FPS, because it's possible to win occasionally out of dumb luck and button-mashing, while my experience the handful of times I've played multiplayer FPS was pretty much, "Oh, I died. Oh, someone was camping at the respawn point and killed me immediately. Oh, I walked for ten seconds and then someone sniped me." I felt like I spent more time staring at the loading screen than actually playing.
> basically involves getting your ass handed to you over and over and over. I got into fighting games recently and I never experienced this. I just played against people of the same skill level, and gradually added mechanics to my game plan until I felt like I understood most things. Maybe if you're playing an old game where everyone who is still playing is super good this is an issue, but even then you can just play with your friends. Just doing a fast attack after they do a slow attack will give you a decent win rate against beginners in basically any fighting game.
Not to brag about my mum, but she's og goldeneye and perfect dark. Shes beat all levels on 00 agent (except Aztec, fuck that), and perfect agent.
Comp scenes based around games very much not designed for comp were hilarious. Like how all major TF2 leagues disable random crits but there's so many weapons with the listed downside "No random crits".
I see your TF2, and I raise you [gestures vaguely at old licensed fighting games], but especially [Sailor Moon S.](http://newchallenger.net/w/index.php/Sailor_Moon_S) One of the worst characters in the game can potentially run down the timer for a win by backdashing over and over again for full invincibility frames. It does not get prettier from here, and somehow, there’s an incredibly dedicated community for this game anyway
Although the difference between games like TF2 or Melee and games like Sailor Moon S, is that TF2/Melee are trying to take themselves seriously. Meanwhile Sailor Moon S is a goofy game that people tend to pick up just because of how stupid it is.
I don't think TF2 takes itself particularly seriously tbf.
TF2 doesn’t take itself the slightest bit seriously. The playerbase, on the other hand. . .
Except if you looked at that old "Brotherhood of Arms" version of TF2, that took itself VERY seriously.
Sailor Moon S is not even slightly trying to be a balanced game but TF2 is a game with more man hours put designing it's gameplay than have been spent trying to reach the moon( Source: a dream )
The majority of TF2's player base doesn't take the game seriously. Comp players must be separated from the herd and mocked relentlessly.
Sailor moon sus
I want to be obliterated by a bullet train
Yukari moment
r/unexpectedtouhou (Fr tho, based choice in games)
What
Blorbo explanation: Yukari Yakumo from Touhou is an ancient Youkai with the power to open “gaps” that, among other things, can act as portals. One of her favorite special attacks is to portal in a train to run someone over. The fandom considers the idea of this ancient, super powerful pseudo-demon-goddess just running people over with random trains to be hilarious.
The fandom is right
What happens to the people on the train
It depends on if you pull the lever or not.
Why am I not dead yet
The problem with random crits is that you're more likely to get one if you've done more damage recently, so in a competitive format, minor skill differences could snowball into one team crushing the other because of random crits. It also makes the tactical choice between Kritskreig or stock über pretty obvious
Yeah, that’s the big complaint with random crits. They’re not particularly random because they’re weighted towards people who have already killed a lot. I feel like this could be fixed by either switching it around so players with less kills can have their day, simply making them _actually random,_ or just removing them altogether.
Exactly, the stated purpose of random crits is to break stalemates and keep the game interesting, but the way their designed runs counter to that stated goal
Do stalemates even exist in TF2? Aside from a few select gamemodes like Capture the Flag, most fights are pretty win-or-lose. Usually one team _wants_ a stalemate so they can run out the clock and win. (Unless the whole point is giving the opposing team a chance, but I don’t see how random crits would solve that problem.)
They can when engineers get entrenched enough and their team protects their sentry and dispensers. Theoretically the attacking team could theorize a way past or an organized push, but in casual you almost never see that level of cooperation
I always thought it funny that a game called **Team** Fortress Two that has a lot of mechanics built around teamwork also has one of the most uncooperative playerbases to ever exist.
That's what you get when your game is an arena shooter: everyone just wants to do their own shit, except medics.
As a medic main in every game I play I can confirm
Yeah, but that'd require my teammates to protect my buildings. My personal experience is that nobody gives a shit about the support classes if it requires the tiniest of efforts.
This is true of normal TF2, but a competitive level they basically only play symmetrical matches where neither team can win by defending (king of the hill and 5 Capture Points are basically the only competitive game modes). In both of these, a team either wins by holding mid for 3 minutes total (which lends itself to defense but only after it’s captured) or by capturing all five points (where any class that is really good at defense but lacks offense is worthless because you need to be able to rapidly transition between attacking and defending). I don’t like comp TF2 very much because it inherently ignores a lot of the game, Including my two favorite modes, attack/defend and payload. With the way it’s played at a high level, it’s basically a whole other game.
There are multiple formats of comp TF2. 6v6 (which is what you're referring to), which only plays 5cp and KOTH. And Highlander (9v9, one of each class) which plays Payload/KOTH and cp\_steel.
I am aware of Highlander, but it’s less popular than sixes and it’s harder to watch because it’s 18 total players instead of 12, the same number or even higher than most other esports (league, DotA, Siege, and CS have 10, overwatch has 12). If I had my way for how comp TF2 is best played, it would be prolander no 5CP, which does exist but is very uncommon.
Ow has 10 also now.
Yeah, I’m not fond of comp either, mostly because I suck at it and I feel like TF2 isn’t really meant to be a very competitive game at its core. It’s a goofy class based shooter where you can hit people with a wet fish and throw bottles of piss at your teammates to keep them from burning to death. A competitive playstyle just feels antithetical to the tone, but whatever floats peoples boats I guess.
I think that the tone of the game is contrary to it, but TF2 has (besides random crits) some of the most in depth and high skill ceiling gameplay of any game ever made. Mechanically, besides the bugs, TF2 is basically perfect. From that perspective it could make an amazing competitive game, but the way it IS played competitively is boring and ignores a lot of the games most interesting features- the meta for the standard casual format is so locked down that 5 classes aren’t played and almost none of the 170 or so weapons get used. It’s a shame.
That's a problem with 6v6, the low amount of players and the 5cp maps FORCE generalist classes to be played 90% of the time. And 6s players are not particularly against it, because the said generalist classes have advanced and high skill ceiling movement mechanics. It all results in a very fast paced gamemode played on semi-open maps and with an insane skill ceiling. Buffing specialists like heavy or engineer in 6s is just gonna put said classes under more restrictions not to slow the game down. Highlander is good too, but forcing 1 of each class into each team leads to a serious slowdown due to all the specialists having to work together. Sniper with an engineer nest behind them isn't fun to take out. About 130/170 weapons being awfully underpowered doesn't help gameplay variety either. If I had to design a comp gamemode, it would be focused on koth as payload is slow and 5cp is generalist heaven. It would be like 6s except there would be 7 players on each team and 2 or 1 are always gonna be specialists, with class limit of specialists restricted to 1.
Attacking a well coordinated team that gives callouts to their Snipers with 5000+ hours of game knowledge and protects their medic is pretty insane, in fact, a lot of offensive pushes can just get negated by voice chat.
^ this person hasn’t played a 5cp or powerhouse round that lasted over two hours
Halo dominated MLG for a few games, and as such it led to increasingly deranged obsessions with what counted as “cheating” in competitive play, with almost 100% of the things being built into the game. Except, Halo 2 had BXR, which was a glitch button combo and all the competitive gamers were enraged when it wasn’t in Halo 3. Competitive gamers also hated Halo 3’s equipment and always disabled those. They hated Reach’s loadouts and armor abilities, and those were disabled. The “noob combo”, a two-hit ranged kill that requires a charged shot from one gun before switching to the other and landing a headshot, was introduced in the first game as a tactic you learn in the first level of the campaign. It is one of the single most hated things and is as derided as the name suggests. Edit: I just want it to be known that as someone who played an ungodly amount of Halo 3 and Reach matchmaking, the only time a match’s outcome was solely the result of equipment, armor abilities, and loadouts it was because the H3 power drain was a bit OP vs the previously OP vehicles. An AOE throwable EMP with a continuous spherical EMP with a radius around ~21-28 feet that lasted for 7 seconds and caused any vehicle in it to shut down for several seconds, refreshed as long as it was in the EMP field. A bit too powerful.
> Halo 2 had BXR so *that's* why the battle rifle is called that in Destiny 2... EDIT: \*googles what it is* oh so it's just the Blunt Execution Rounds the gun can roll with, but as a bug. Cool.
And as a spawn weapon everyone had in every match that had default spawning weapons. The Halo 2 Battle Rifle was the default weapon. It was basically a faster noob combo minus range? Melee Noob Combo.
Little stuff like that is why the 30th anniversary was special.
i mean every weapon has other non-rc related downsides... also fuck em theyre unfun
Technically, the Manmelter’s only listed downside is “no random critical hits,” but not doing extra damage to burning players could be considered a downside even though it’s not listed in the stats and is more the lack of an upside. ETA the Flying Guillotine also has no listed downsides other than “no random critical hits,” but it’s also a pretty weird weapon so it’s not really an exception either.
the manmelter lacking crits on burning players is absolutely a downside that they just cant list because it would look weird on the formatting
to be fair random crits should've never existed in the first place
not really sure how that's what you find ridiculous when valve decided that randomly one-shotting people was a mechanic they should put into their arena shooter
Even some of the intentional stuff is kinda weird. This is a comment about port priority. Let’s say you grab your opponent at the same time they grab you. In ultimate, you both just bounce back as if you both mashed out. But in Melee? WHOEVER HAS THEIR CONTROLLER PLUGGED INTO THE FIRST PORT GETS IT. So higher ports must suck right? No. Because this completely arbitrary mechanic mixes with the bugginess this game is known for.yes say you get a grab as port 2. For some reason, you get an extra frame of hot sun to work with than your opponent, even if they use the exact same throw as you. This leads to stupid shit like port exclusive combos. So lower ports win grab trades, while higher ports get better grabs. For some reason.
In my headcanon, it's not a bug, it's a feature for the younger siblings who were relegated to port 2 by their merciless older brother.
They really did think of everything. Features so clever you think they’re bugs!
I’m not part of the smash community, hot sun?
Hit stun
Hat son
Hatsune
[There's a great AsumSaus video on that exact topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA8kpvTBh8Q&t=8s&ab_channel=AsumSaus) (stellar channel btw, I'd recommend you check him out if you're even slightly interested in smash)
I know exactly what you’re referencing and I must say: the single extra frame of hit stun rarely - if ever - matters. It’s usually made to sound like a bigger deal than it is.
Melee is so fucking stupid. I love it.
I keep on seeing Armada leaving a tournament cuz of a controller brought up as a "haha smash is STUPID and DUMB actually" and I dunno fair I guess but A. If you go to 50 tournaments a year at least are you really gonna wanna play one with a weird, bad feeling controller when you could just take a break and get ready for the next one and B. UCF (Universal Controller Fix) has been a thing at every major tournament for years now and completely fixes the problem, making any controller work just fine
If I might just interject a little, the real reason a lot of the broader fighting game community doesn’t like Smash as a whole is- >The smell. That’s most popular nerd fandoms. >Children’s party game? I could probably hand some kids good controllers and a copy of Them’s Fighting Herds, and they’d have a blast too. But obviously, while they’re fighting back a little against the spirit of the game, at the end of it all, you can almost do anything competitively. >Just everything that happened at EVO 2020? …well it’s why I left, but that’s not indicative of everyone in the community. >Do you have a point yet? I think the actual reason the FGC doesn’t like Smash is just how damn complicated it is compared to non-platform fighters. When I hit somebody in a fighting game, they (usually) can’t do anything to cut my combo prematurely short, and the added mobility means that, in addition to having to make reads all the damn time, playing keepaway is so strong that it ends up weeding out a lot of Smash’s stages to not curse us with half-hour sets.
what's funny is that I know a LOOOOT of smash players who say they wanna get into fighting games but think that the combos and motion inputs are too complicated while DI and SDI and Teching in smash is all second nature to them. I think it just kinda depends on what you grew up with >!Let's be real tho, the real reason the main FGC doesn't like Smash Bros is that a lot of traditional fighting games were in arcades in the 90's so a lot of different games had communities/players that intermingled while Smash was a home-console exclusive and as such kinda grew it's own community that didn't really interact w/ the greater FGC until they (the smash community) were trying to gain legitimacy. It's why there's so many exclusively Smash events and why when big tournaments like EVO or CEO have both traditional fighters and smash, a lot of people will play multiple traditional fighters or Smash but not both. As fighting games become more accessible and main-stream it'll happen again with each new game. It's already happening w/ GG Strive. The future is now!<
There’s a tweet that used to exist of a Smash player accidentally doing Ryu’s proper DP input (which gets rewarded with a stronger version, an intentional mechanic in Smash), thought he discovered something new, and wanted to publicize the sweet new tech he discovered as “the mama mia”, before everybody on Twitter came after him and got the tweet deleted. If you can teach a Smash player motion inputs, they *will* feel like a god. Also, for anyone trying to join the dark side, BlazBlue Cross Tag exists. It’s all quarter circles. It’s got a huge cast (including Blorbo). It has functional netcode. Do it.
just wait until Project L comes out w/ no motion input and literally dozens of blorbos and waifus. You're gonna see people joining the dark side alright
Project L is *also* a simplified tag battler with waifus, husbandos, and FBI open ups; I’m just trying to get them in the door earlier. Also the people of Runeterra mysteriously seem to have a weird sexual dimorphism where the men are allowed to be interesting, and women are usually slapped into the same fucking body type and personality over and over again. Wake me up if they add Jhin.
The weird sexual dimorphism makes more sense when you find out about the laundry list of sexual harassment accusations Riot executives have had levied against them
Just for a laugh, I decided to look over the entire champion list to see who has my attention at all (ignoring LoR’s superior remake of a lot of their designs and overall character coughRivencoughVicough), and: Women: 2, both very much cutesy designs with decent backstories (Lillia and Poppy) Men: 7, almost none of whom are manly man men (Akshan, Galio, Jhin, Kled, Swain, Sylas, and Taric, my beloved) ~~Please Rito I beg you to give Fiora a purpose besides honor or so help me god I will join your writing staff~~
I believe we may have at last found a shared Blorbo Though for me it was mainly because Fiora's PROJECT skin is absolutely amazing but I did actually come to enjoy the character after that Now if only I could actually play her
I think I liked Fiora a little while back, but it’s been a couple years, and while you can imagine how happy I’d be to have a second nickel for honorable redheads with rapiers, I’ve said before that I like it when characters have a bit of depth to them besides “I am on the side of good/evil and might have dead parents, and that’s all you need to know.” All they have to do is give Fiora another hobby unrelated to near certainly kicking my ass for to take the last name Laurent. I cannot live on girlboss alone.
Somebody high up at Riot is *really* into manic pixie dream girls. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
I counted 19, and had to question myself an additional 3 times on if just being murderous counts. Jesus. Edit: also like half the recent releases are exactly this, starting at about Seraphime all the way up to Gwen, Zeri, and especially Nilah
Yep. Someone over there is down bad. I first noticed it around Zeri, but it should've been obvious at Seraphine. She completely overshadowed Samira, despite the latter having this amazing swashbuckling daredevil design. And while I can't say Samira doesn't fall solidly into the stereotypical Riot Female Character Design, you can't deny [she has at least *some* style.](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Samira_0.jpg)
Samira is just straight up cool, she's literally a DMC character that somehow ended up in the League universe.
who's the blorbo in question
Arakune, maybe? He's shaped like what I imagine a blorbo would look like
Arakune isn't in TAG.
[Behold](https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Mitsuru_Kirijo)
oh yes that's a very good taste in blorbos
I play smash and traditional fighters I just don't play Melee, because as much as smash players say traditional fighters are more complicated, nothing comes close to trying to use the techniques melee requires for basic movement. I can't stand playing a game where something as simple as movement requires such an intensely difficult technique as the melee wavedash. Just let me throw out 360 command grab inputs please.
> Just everything that happened at EVO 2020? I must've missed that. The last Melee drama I remember coming out of EVO was the Melee crowd booing when the then-current Smash winner was crowned, but that was before 2020. Though let me tell you, as a person whose hobbies include 'fighting games as a spectator sport', I got so much entertainment out of everything surrounding Melee. The game itself is kinda whatever, but the players? Let's just say I'm subscribed to r/hobbydrama for a reason.
Well, to put it mildly, what happened at EVO 2020 was EVO 2020 vanishing into thin air over a hell of a lot of allegations all at once, including the then organizer of EVO himself. A bunch of pros dropped out of the sky that way, and it was kind of my last straw for even thinking about participating.
Really? I think smash has to be the sinplest one out there. Maybe the skill level is different but I wouldn't say it's any higher or lower, just more positioning based than other games I think the skill floor in smash is a basement, for other figthing ganes the skill floor is an actual floor or a step or two in a staircase. Stunning and stun locking just never feel good, always felt clunky. Not being able to hit because someone tickled you was wack. Super armour in smash fixed that to some extend
Depends on how you define "skill floor." To know all of the mechanics and inputs, sure smash has less and the inputs themselves aren't as complicated. But to be a consideration at even a local level, the technical requirements for melee are much higher than for most typical fighting games. Wavedashing, a fundamental movement mechanic all but necessary for competitive melee, can take weeks of practice to execute semi-reliably. You want to touch the ground while doing an attack? Press z in this window if you don't want your lag doubled and to get full punished. There's one guy who can kinda compete in pittsburgh without these things but his mental game is so absurdly good he can get away with it. Sure, you can do all the developer-intended actions pretty easy compared to most games, but not everything is developer-intended, is it?
There's an additional reason, which is that Melee players are notoriously insecure. I don't think its nearly as bad as it used to be like a decade ago, but Melee fans to me are still synonymous with getting really pissed off at people for not playing a fun party game correctly, looking down on anybody who won't learn tech so hand-mangling it literally gives players arthritis, and constantly screaming about how Nintendo is directly victimizing them for not making smash 4/Ultimate EXACTLY like Melee. The issue isn't that they are playing a children's party game, its that they openly resent and in some cases attack people who treat it like a children's party game because that's how they enjoy it, though again this has improved significantly. They can have that Brawl's anti-competitive stuff was a bad idea though. That's very true.
Melee is those insane Half-Life speedruns turned into a fighting game, it's awesome.
"WHAT'S THAT IN THE SKY?! OH MY GOD IT'S GORDON FREEMAN WITH THE WOMBO COMBO"
*Image Transcription: Tumblr* --- **captainsnoop** Melee players have to cheat at their own game for people to take their game seriously. They disguise the bugs they exploit as “advanced tech” to trick people in to taking them seriously, but in reality they’re just glitching out a broken party game. --- **yiffmaster** wasn’t there a tournament a few weeks ago where someone needed a controller with a specific defect that’s found in 1-in-50 gamecube controllers and is required to do a certain technique, didn’t find any such controllers in the tournament’s supplies and left because he couldn’t play competitively without it --- **yiffmaster** [*A screenshot of an article headline, reading:*] > # *Smash* 'God' Drops Out Of Tournament Because His Controller Isn't Properly Malfunctioning > > Eric Van Allen [*End screenshot.*] --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
Good human
genuinely hilarious that people will still call wavedashing a "bug" when its literally just 1) jump and airdash into the ground 2) slide a little when you land because of how fast you were going like yeah, wavedashing became a lot more centralizing than anyone could have expected because of how versatile it is but at no point is the game ever "glitching" when you wavedash
My brother in Christ, Sakurai himself listed it as a special technique on the Japanese melee website.
It's not an intended mechanic though. It's something they picked up and thought was cool and all, but it's hardly something that they went out and designed the game around.
It's entirely an intended mechanic. It's literally just sliding because of air dash speed being interrupted by a landing.
People be downvoting you for being right, its not like they werent aware of it or unable to fix it.
That's still not the same thing as it being intended from the get-go. It was a happy accident, not something that was the game was built around.
Go watch Smallant’s video on playing Odyssey as Nintended. It’s a much much worse game.
At no point have I assigned any virtue to the designers' intentions. I just think people are deluding themselves by pretending that Wavedashing was part of Sakurai's grand master plan or something, rather than an unintentional side effect of air dodge speed being transferred to the ground.
You’re p much arguing a game can’t evolve. You ever seen any kind of platformer or DS-esque speedruns? They’re full of genuinely unintended bugs, doesn’t mean people can’t enjoy themselves anyway. Who cares if games evolve or people find unintended quirks? Does it even matter as long as people are having fun? Let people enjoy things however they want
>You’re p much arguing a game can’t evolve. ...No I'm not. What the hell are you talking about? How does "Wavedashing was not an intentional mechanic in Melee" translate in your head to "games can't evolve, people aren't allowed to have fun with unintended quirks"? I literally explicitly said that I'm not assigning virtue to it, IE: I'm not calling it a good or bad thing. How about instead of making up shit to pretend that I said, you actually talk about what I *DID* say? Christ, the level of reading comprehension on this sub is atrocious.
It hardly matters whether it was a part of some grand plan. It became a part of the game because of momentum mechanics, the developers knew about it, and it was intentionally left in the game as-is. We even have evidence for it, that being the updated releases of of melee that include such things as nerfs for fox and buffs for kirby (which isn’t used in tournament because it’s less hype). It’s still in those versions even though they knew about it prior to the original versions’ releases. Wavedashing is less of a glitch than game and watch. As in, the whole character.
They fixed it among many other bugs when they made Brawl
The moment the developers decided they liked it and left it in, it became an intended mechanic, imo
A bug is unintended behaviour. It was noticed in development, and they decided it was more effort than it was worth to fix. It was still never in the design documentation.
I feel like design documentation is an extremely shit way to judge what is and isn't a bug. The amount of games with comprehensive design documentation available to the public is very low.
Do you have a source for that design documentation?
MY SOURCE IS THAT I MADE IT THE FUCK UP
More of a half exploit.
I mean, both wavedashing and L-cancelling are intentional mechanics, which were intentionally removed from later games
Wave dashing was a semi intentional mechanic They had no intention to put it in but they accidentally made it and decided it to leave it in
"I want the simple act of moving to be as difficult as possible" -Melee Max "AAAAAAAAUGGHHH" - MvC Marty
ill be honest, im whatever about wavedashing but l cancelling is dumb and shouldve been removed
Neither is as stupid as the meteor cancel
meteor cancel is at least intuitive enough to do accidentally casually and being meteor smashed doesn't come up as often. l cancel, on the other hand, doesn't have as intuitive of an input and is so universally common that it basically serves to bring up the skill floor for no reason
Meteor cancelling isn't common because it completely fucks up the risk/reward balance of a shitload of moves. So those moves don't get used. Also, L-cancelling is something you can do accidentally casually, by trying to shield as you land from an aerial attack L-cancelling is stupid, but because it's universal, it's less damaging than having a move be rendered useless because meteors were OP in smash 64
I agree with you on L-cancelling, it's basically sacrificing your real life hand health for an advantage in-game, so I'm glad it was removed from later games
i suddenly have an urge to throw crabs at people
👀
captainsnoop is a spoilsport That controller-story is pretty funny tho
Yeah they're like "bug-ridden mess (derogatory)" I'm like "bug-ridden mess (affectionate)"
They sound like an elitist prick. >"Only the games I like are valid! Everything else is babby games!!!" Like damn, dawg. Go touch grass.
this is like saying Quake 1 or Tribes 1 are joke games because strafejumping and skiing weren't in the manuals
This is apropos of nothing but I fucking hate Quake 1's movement. That little slide upon movement, like I'm on ice at all times, makes the game absolutely hellish to play. Jumping isn't great either, once again feels like trash, but regardless at least the game is fun enough when you're used to it's bullshit. DUSK, 20 years later, feels like what Quake had the potential for, and feels absolutely magnificent to play (that autojump button especially is amazing).
DUSK my beloved, that game opened my eyes to an entire genre
the thing that bugs me any time this post goes around is how it fails to mention that a *great deal* of effort from the community has gone toward standardizing the way controller inputs are handled by the game seriously, UCF is a testament to how much focus the community puts towards accessibility
goddammit I'm gettin emotional about melee again
oh god i used to be like 'melee is garbage' just to be an asshole but i'm actually a nice person now
Melee isn't garbage, but it _is_ pretty dumb
Melee isn't garbage, but i wish platform fighters outside of Smash itself hadn't all decided that wavedashing is a 100% necessary mechanic
why not, it's a cool and intuitive movement option
It is the exact opposite of both of those things It's not cool, it looks janky as hell with characters scooting along the floor with no apparent source of momentum. It's not intuitive, the motion required to do it does not imply that it should generate an actionable slide at all.
couldn't disagree more. if your problem is the physics of it why don't you complain about double jump. Sliding on the ground or off of/on to a platform is fun, cool, and makes perfect sense as the next available movement option after running, jumping, and rolling.
Oh, mechanically it's an interesting mechanic... for Melee The problem is the lack of animation for it, also the unintuitive input Newer platform fighters shouldn't have similar mechanics require the weird jump then a split second later airdodge diagonal down because that's fucked and is a relic of wavedash being unintentional. It should just be one input if you want people to use it regularly. Also it needs a proper, dedicated animation that isn't just a sliding crouch
This seems like a good thread to remind people that Little Red Riding Hood is broken in Shrek SuperSlam
I just found my old CD. Tell me how she’s broken.
Unsure of the details but I think she has some really unbeatable combo? If you look up "little red riding hood shrek super slam" on youtube im sure there's videos
melee is so fascinating
Technically the stick bug isn't *required* for perfect pivots, but doing them without it is ungodly difficult. For those who don't know what this is about but are still in the comments for some reason, a perfect pivot is when you make your character instantaneously go from running full-speed in one direction to the other. This mechanic has appeared in... I don't know if *most* since I'm pretty unfamiliar with a lot of them but at least **some** Smash Bros games afterwards, including Ultimate, but Melee's version is super dumb. You do a perfect pivot by smashing your analog stick from one end of its gate to the other at a speed that avoids ever setting off a certain flag. If you don't pull it off, you character will do a little slide first, which all you need to know about is that it's very bad. Either way, with a normal controller, this trick has at most a window of a single frame (one 60th of a second), and that's only if you perfectly happen to time it at the start of one frame, which is, to say the least, unlikely. However, there's a certain controller malfunction that makes this considerably easier. Some, and inf fact *most* competitive Melee players refuse to play unless they have access to a controller that can do it easier since it's a crucial mechanic.
That just makes it seem more like Armada was a giant prick for refusing to play with a normal controller. If the technique is possible on a normal controller, but made easier by a malfunctioning one, well, that's pretty much the textbook definition of a mechanical advantage, and it's exactly what competitive games should be trying to avoid. Everyone should use standard controllers, not the slightly broken ones that make the technique easier
Fun fact: For a considerable amount of time, the competitive scene (or anyone, really) didn't *know* about the stick bug. Iirc, some players were insistent that other people's controllers pulled off perfect pivots easier, and some guy was like "Fine if you give me money to do it I'll take apart the controllers and *prove* that the're the same" but instead found the malfunction. And I see why it may come across as a mechanical advantage but the Melee community... Well the way I see it it's not that they *don't* see it that way, it's that they dislike the alternative even more. See, without the stick bug, the frame perfect input is as good as a coin toss, and the difference it makes in gameplay is crucial. In many cases, it's the difference between hitting and getting hit. And leaving that up to chance is, well... Just a proto version of Brawl tripping. And we know how much *everyone* hated that.
I suppose insisting that only the malfunctioning controllers are valid controllers for competitive play would be a workable option, but only if you have enough and you can be sure you aren't going to run out of them. But I'm not sure that's possible, and if it's not. You should just deal with it not being a reliable strategy. I suppose everyone playing Melee could switch over to a mod that makes the technique easier, that would probably be the best solution
God, I hate this screenshot so much. I've seen it too many times to count now, and it's just nothing but surface level shit talk from idiots who never even took the time to understand what makes the game interesting or fun in the first place
Every time the comments thread is slightly more reasonable but nobody knows what they're talking about.
MvC3 is the cheater olympics then, and i absolutely love it.
If only being **motivated** was all it took to compete in the Olympics
Vergil would absolutely tell you it is.
Captainsnoop has no idea what they’re talking about > They disguise the bugs the exploit as “advanced tech” Wavedashing and L-cancelling are both intentional, with the latter even being a thing in 64 > they’re just glitching out a broken children’s party game And? People are free to enjoy games in ways the developers might not have intended and people have found Melee is generally more enjoyable to play competively than it is as a party game, so why does the fact it’s a “party game” matter?
People complaining about tech will never not be funny to me. Its such a minor thing that almost always makes the game more entertaining
I'm probably alone in this, but I've never understood calling Smash a "party game" either. In my house a "party game" always meant a minigame collection, which may or may not be tied together with a board game or something. Mario Party, Raving Rabbids, etc. If the only qualification to call something a party game is that you play it at parties, then Halo was one hell of a party game to us lol
They never specifically mentioned either of those things. You look me dead in the eye and tell me shit like the Super Wavedash and wobbling is intentional. I think a huge part of Melee's appeal is that it's a casual party game thoroughly broken and contorted into something resembling a competitive game. It's utter nonsense, but it works because of it.
No, L cancelling was absolutely intentional. Like, a tutorial to do it was literally listed on both the Melee and Smash 64 websites under the name "smooth landing".
Nobody said L-canceling was unintentional
Every time this shit gets reposted, I end up getting mad and writing a whole ass essay about how wrong literally everything in the post is.
There are people who are assholes about competitive Melee and the first guy is probably one of them. I know wavedashing and L-canceling aren't glitches. Melee isn't the most polished game, but it's not accurate to say that competitive play requires cheating. I was compelled to post this because A. I find the Armada thing really funny and B. the last time it was posted was a year ago and the flair on it was "annual Melee slander".
And even if bugs were used in competitive play, that wouldn't make it cheating, as long as the rules of the competition allow use of said bugs.
There's 2 types of fighting game players: Fighters and Gamers. Fighters like the stimulation of a digital sparring session. Gamers need to Win and Beat the Game at any cost.
My favorite moments in fighting games have come from being read like a fucking book (I’m never going to forget getting hit with round start DP for airdashing in like a goober), or both of us agreeing to blow off steam with a character neither of us know. Losing is a part of the learning process, and by god I lost. While you were busy having premarital ranked, I was studying the blade with my friends
Facts, being humbled by a truly better player is one of the best feelings in a fighting game, especially when you pride yourself on being good at them. I go into a match hoping someone will be good enough to make me work for it, that's the only time I learn clutch strategies, through sheer panic.
The first time I Saw The Line and fucking wombo-combo'd a way better player than me with Lucas in Project M made me completely understand how some people could spend thousands of hours honing their skill in various Smash titles. I then got fucking shredded through my remaining stocks, but it was still fun.
Melee is coded with duck tape and prayers. They made the game with over double the original roster size in like 2 years it's miracle it's not more broken
I get this is an old post but it's such a shit take on the game.
I don’t see the problem with pushing a game to it’s limits. Reminds me of the people who disregard speedrunning because it’s “cheating” or whatever
Melee is an anomaly. Never forget that there's a glitch where a tree in the background can temporarily delete the attack hitboxes on two sword fighters and nobody knows how or why it happens
Smash melee is the only true e-"SPORT". Its scene is almost entirely using propriety hardware/software at this point, it's basically open source, and the Corp that made the game initially has no affiliation with it.
also the number of players with injuries because of it is crazy carpal tunnel, tendonitis, (whatever haxx has)
melee is maybe the best esport of all time and i have never ever played the game
Starcraft
Starcraft doesn’t have a Mang0 or a Hbox or an Armada. No esport is as genuine and authentic as melee because the devs of melee and nintendo dont give a fuck about the game
tbf adam would've lost anyway
[удалено]
if people played a game as much as melee is played for 21 years, we’d see all the bugs like tf2, that’s 15 years old and it’s my favourite bug-ridden mess
"Melee isn't a glitchfest, it's an *exploit*fest."
Melee was a catastrophic failure considering what Sakurai wanted it to be (a fun casual party game that anyone could pick up and play)
Is it though? Just because some people somewhere are wavedashing and L-cancelling and going sicko mode, that doesn’t mean casual Timmy and his friends have to know how to do those things to just load into the game and have a fun slapfight. The game has room for both. That’s been a great strength of Smash for the entire series that the flip of a couple settings transforms it from a casual party game to a competitive fighter - how many other games are that versatile? The advanced tech isn’t “necessary” unless you want to play against strong enough opponents that you need to do the advanced tech to compete - but if that’s your intention, then you’re definitionally not a casual.
Oof, you could smell the intense snobbery and insecurity emanating from captainsnoop a mile away. They focused a lot on Smash Melee players having a need for people to take them seriously. Sounds like projection to me. That or captainsnoop is just a prick. Not that those two are mutually exclusive I suppose.
People just can't accept the impossibility of having a game that's casual accessible while also being optimized for competitive environments. The fact that smash is being played competitively was probably never foreseen by Nintendo
I don't see any reason why having both has to be impossible. Melee *was* a very successful casual game, in fact the best selling game on its console and it's also one of the most successful esports of all time by longevity, which is impressive considering not just the lack of dev support but active developer hostility. I think the bigger issue is that people (sakurai) can't accept that it's okay to have advanced tech, and that trying to level the playing field between casuals and competitive players accomplishes nothing for casuals and hurts competitive players.
If you’re nothing without the controller then you don’t deserve the controller.
My guy got downvoted for telling it like it is
They got downvoted for making an MCU reference. SAD!
[Heres a video I like for everyone interested in a more informed & nuanced take on melee](https://youtu.be/OX24wkkMEXs)
I am a casual fan which means I have a list of people I don’t play with because they’re annoyingly good
What always gets me about Smash tournaments, is that no one there actually wants to play Smash. They disable items, finals smashes, any stage with any element of randomness, they ban half the characters etc etc. They ban everything that makes “Smash Bros” “Smash Bros.” So why not just play a “proper” fighting game and leave Smash to be a fun party-style game?
Because at the heart of every smash game is an interesting and compelling fighting game which functions differently enough from traditional fighters to barely be in the same genre as something like Street Fighter. Plus people want to play as characters from their favorite games as their competitive main. So why ban "Everything that makes smash bros"? Because while they're fun to play with casually they can't coexist with a competitive ruleset. Stages above a certain size allow you to just gain the tiniest lead on your opponent and run away until the timer is done, not to mention stage hazards and wall infinites. Final smashes are overcentralizing and mess with character balance (they're basically a "take a free stock) button, but in 4 and brawl especially for some characters they suck which is a huge disadvantage. Other items are extremely random as good items will spawn directly on top of one player. On top of that, once a player has one good item like a strong pokeball or an assist trophy, they can use the stage advantage it grants to try to get more good items while their opponent is at a disadvantage fighting the game, creating a super strong luck based positive feedback loop that runs counter to the idea of a fighting game. In the early days of competitive smash, items were on, and all stages were allowed. Slowly these things changed because in a competitive environment they lessened the game by making you spend more focus on game elements than your opponent. And why not play another fighting game and leave smash alone? Well, as I've said, other fighting games aren't that similar at all, and don't have Nintendo characters. On top of that, it's not like they're hurting anybody by playing competitively. The worst that comes of it is that you might be peer pressured into trying out the competive ruleset.
The other commenter covered most things but I’ll also say the large scale competitive community has never banned a character. In some cases they arguably should have with how far and away more powerful the likes of Meta Knight and Bayonetta were in Brawl and 4, but those were never banned outside of a few local scenes experimenting with the decision. Some local scenes in places with heavy linguistic diversity banned Hero for accessibility issues (the opponent may not be able to read the spell menu, which affects their ability to play around the character) but that’s for external reasons and it wasn’t common. I think there’s a vocal minority on Twitter rn asking for Steve to be banned but I don’t think they’re being taken seriously.
>ban half the characters literal bullshit, the only noteworthy bans have been meta knight in brawl, double cloud in smash 4 team games, and briefly hero in ultimate because of the language barrier he presents for non english speakers (and even then, those only happened at a local scale, never a literal blanket ban like you claim). in a series with 100~ characters, three bans is barely anything, especially with the EXTREMELY specific circumstances they're banned in.
>Is that nobody actually wants to play smash Games can be enjoyed in multiple ways. Playing Smash competitively without items or silly stages is just as valid as treating it as a party game Also I can count the amount of times a character has been successfully banned on 1 hand (and that's across the entire series), which is nowhere near "half"