I think it's fine as an amusing gimmick but only for one character once. Player buy-in is very important in my experience, and I wouldn't want to consistently break the fourth wall in my game.
I think it'd be interesting if he understands he exists within a simulated existence, and that gives him certain advantages. But I don't think he should know outright he's in a game and player stats.
Maybe he has realized that by physically constructing an enormous dice in world and launching it with a spell like Catapult he can do additional "damage" equal to the number he rolls.
Or you could have him create a bunch of traps and skill challenges that only make sense in a game context. Like they actually just call for a competency roll.
You could abstract his knowledge one step; maybe he doesn't think about ttrpg terms themselves, but has come to realize that he and the players are all puppets of different beings, that this confict is just their for their amusement. Give him "glitchy" spells like Reverse Gravity.
As for the more meta abilities, maybe at the top of Initiative each round he's able to swap initiative between any two combatants.
As he dies he may have a more profound realization where you can tie in the game itself. Maybe just saying "You don't understand. The gods play dice with our universe" before he croaks.
Take inspiration from Sans or Spamton in Undertale. They understand the rules of the game they are living in, and in some ways glimpse that they have strings or that there's something beyond the veil of the reality they experience. But the most important fact is that within these revelations they take the plot of the game, events unfolding in front of them, and their relationships with other characters seriously. They're breaking the fourth wall but instead of playing it for laughs, they're playing it as a disturbing, cosmic truth that they are haunted by. They should come off as utterly deranged to the in-universe characters but make sense from the meta-positional knowledge of the players.
"We all have strings! The Hands that move and guide us by their will! Can't you see them?"
"Did you think I was just going to stand there and get hit while you take your turn?"
"The painted rocks fall, everyone lives or dies by the rocks! Listen! Listen for the clacks of fate!"
"And while your Hand snacks on pizza/cookies/beer, you can't move! I strike for extra rocks of fate!"
"I see it clearly now... So clear! If I have no sheet of paper for my own, I am doomed if I fight this party! Escape, have to escape! The only way to live until the next session!"
This. My boss is puppeteer-themed and I’m planning a similar scene to Brandon Sanderson’s Alloy of Law prologue with fresh corpses propped as puppets for display, and he whispers “someone else moves us, can’t you feel the strings?” With the idea where he can “see” the strings of fate, and it has driven him mad in one way or another. He notices the PCs stings, unlike the others, are golden and different from the others, and that’s given him an unhealthy fascination with them to want to toy with them. He also has 0 qualms about killing NPCs, after all they’re mere puppets in a play.
Add a few legendary actions to swap around initiative and alter rolls, along with a few abilities from the Chronurgy tree to “rewrite the script” and he’ll seem downright creepy instead of goofy.
4th-wall stuff is fun in short, semi-serious bursts that arent tied directly into the story. A good example of this is the concept of Chim from the Elder Scrolls universe.
Essentially TES universe is actually just part of a dream being experienced by a omnipotent being called the Godhead. Few characters know this, because when you learn it in-universe, you essentially lose your ego and "zero-sum". You evaporate, you dont exist and you never existed.
Some beings in TES have such a strong sense of self, such a huge ego, that they look at objective proof of their non-existence and say, "nah, im real", achieving Chim. They can now essentially lucid dream through reality, changing it as much as they want.
Its never explained outright, but pretty well assumed that the game we are playing is the Godhead, and achieving Chim is the character knowing that we, the player, exist. For example, a character called Vivec did this, and therefore wont fight us because he knows we can just reload a save. He also cant be killed with the in-game console commands/cheats.
Its a *very* obscure, small part of the lore, and its never directly explained like I just did, only speculated upon. If you want a similar effect, I wouldnt do it with a main BBEG. Do it with a character that the party isnt likely to interact with much, and keep it quick and simple. I did this with one of my gods to demonstrate his reality warping power by having no gridlines on my map while they are in his realm. The players had to do some extra work with the ruler which I described as their sense of direction and distance being distorted.
Oh yeah no for sure it would be super obnoxious if it was for more than one character. Because he’s a clockwork soul sorcerer and they always have those litttle quirks like gears in their eyes or somethin I was gonna replace that with like a shimmering reflection of a d20 in his eyes. I’m still undecided on how much he should know he’s in a game, maybe he is just convinced he’s in a simulated rng dictated existence and then in his final moments he almost fully gets it
you mentioned your baddies is a clockwork soul sorcerer. why did you’d spec out your boss like that?
in general it’s bad practice and not at all how the game is balanced. and specifically for your case, i think a fully-specced boss gets in the way of any gimmick (like the self-awareness you mention)—it pulls focus from the thing you’re trying to get across. just pull a mage stat block and reflavor all the skills to have a level of meta-awareness.
oh sorry that’s a miscommunication! their just like inspired by the concept and have 1 or two of their abilities not like an exact player character sheet. and as much as flavour is great and free I kinda want it to have more of an effect on gameplay then that
that makes more sense! i was so confused.
i’m not sure agree with you re: flavor. i think it has a pretty strong effect on gameplay if you reflavor thoughtfully and apply tactfully. what i mean: i assume you’re taking restore balance—all you have to do is reflavor the skill to be because they have some meta-understanding of the game than being from primus. that’s effective and scary, especially if you remove advantage from an important roll and taunt them about it.
a simple few lucky points to re-roll any d20 roll could achieve the initiative thing you mentioned or whatever in the combat needs manipulated.
i think it’s an interesting idea for a character (reminds me of tiny tina’s wonderlands) but i suppose my style of DMing would use most of his meta-knowledge as a way to inform when to use the abilities he already has and taunt the players about them rather than change his abilities on the character sheet themselves. i’d probably include one interaction where the boss character argues with me, the DM. “really, you’re having me cast firebolt? a cantrip? i want to FIREBALL!”
but i’m a big less-is-more DM; i almost never over-design mechanics. i prefer to keep the specifics simple and let everything play out at the table and trust me own improv abilities and known of D&D to create the effect i’m looking to create.
I think it's fine as an amusing gimmick but only for one character once. Player buy-in is very important in my experience, and I wouldn't want to consistently break the fourth wall in my game. I think it'd be interesting if he understands he exists within a simulated existence, and that gives him certain advantages. But I don't think he should know outright he's in a game and player stats. Maybe he has realized that by physically constructing an enormous dice in world and launching it with a spell like Catapult he can do additional "damage" equal to the number he rolls. Or you could have him create a bunch of traps and skill challenges that only make sense in a game context. Like they actually just call for a competency roll.
You could abstract his knowledge one step; maybe he doesn't think about ttrpg terms themselves, but has come to realize that he and the players are all puppets of different beings, that this confict is just their for their amusement. Give him "glitchy" spells like Reverse Gravity. As for the more meta abilities, maybe at the top of Initiative each round he's able to swap initiative between any two combatants. As he dies he may have a more profound realization where you can tie in the game itself. Maybe just saying "You don't understand. The gods play dice with our universe" before he croaks.
Take inspiration from Sans or Spamton in Undertale. They understand the rules of the game they are living in, and in some ways glimpse that they have strings or that there's something beyond the veil of the reality they experience. But the most important fact is that within these revelations they take the plot of the game, events unfolding in front of them, and their relationships with other characters seriously. They're breaking the fourth wall but instead of playing it for laughs, they're playing it as a disturbing, cosmic truth that they are haunted by. They should come off as utterly deranged to the in-universe characters but make sense from the meta-positional knowledge of the players. "We all have strings! The Hands that move and guide us by their will! Can't you see them?" "Did you think I was just going to stand there and get hit while you take your turn?" "The painted rocks fall, everyone lives or dies by the rocks! Listen! Listen for the clacks of fate!" "And while your Hand snacks on pizza/cookies/beer, you can't move! I strike for extra rocks of fate!" "I see it clearly now... So clear! If I have no sheet of paper for my own, I am doomed if I fight this party! Escape, have to escape! The only way to live until the next session!"
This. My boss is puppeteer-themed and I’m planning a similar scene to Brandon Sanderson’s Alloy of Law prologue with fresh corpses propped as puppets for display, and he whispers “someone else moves us, can’t you feel the strings?” With the idea where he can “see” the strings of fate, and it has driven him mad in one way or another. He notices the PCs stings, unlike the others, are golden and different from the others, and that’s given him an unhealthy fascination with them to want to toy with them. He also has 0 qualms about killing NPCs, after all they’re mere puppets in a play. Add a few legendary actions to swap around initiative and alter rolls, along with a few abilities from the Chronurgy tree to “rewrite the script” and he’ll seem downright creepy instead of goofy.
wow very nice, sounds like a great encounter and a memorable villain
4th-wall stuff is fun in short, semi-serious bursts that arent tied directly into the story. A good example of this is the concept of Chim from the Elder Scrolls universe. Essentially TES universe is actually just part of a dream being experienced by a omnipotent being called the Godhead. Few characters know this, because when you learn it in-universe, you essentially lose your ego and "zero-sum". You evaporate, you dont exist and you never existed. Some beings in TES have such a strong sense of self, such a huge ego, that they look at objective proof of their non-existence and say, "nah, im real", achieving Chim. They can now essentially lucid dream through reality, changing it as much as they want. Its never explained outright, but pretty well assumed that the game we are playing is the Godhead, and achieving Chim is the character knowing that we, the player, exist. For example, a character called Vivec did this, and therefore wont fight us because he knows we can just reload a save. He also cant be killed with the in-game console commands/cheats. Its a *very* obscure, small part of the lore, and its never directly explained like I just did, only speculated upon. If you want a similar effect, I wouldnt do it with a main BBEG. Do it with a character that the party isnt likely to interact with much, and keep it quick and simple. I did this with one of my gods to demonstrate his reality warping power by having no gridlines on my map while they are in his realm. The players had to do some extra work with the ruler which I described as their sense of direction and distance being distorted.
Oh yeah no for sure it would be super obnoxious if it was for more than one character. Because he’s a clockwork soul sorcerer and they always have those litttle quirks like gears in their eyes or somethin I was gonna replace that with like a shimmering reflection of a d20 in his eyes. I’m still undecided on how much he should know he’s in a game, maybe he is just convinced he’s in a simulated rng dictated existence and then in his final moments he almost fully gets it
why is your boss a character sheet?
What do you mean by that?
you mentioned your baddies is a clockwork soul sorcerer. why did you’d spec out your boss like that? in general it’s bad practice and not at all how the game is balanced. and specifically for your case, i think a fully-specced boss gets in the way of any gimmick (like the self-awareness you mention)—it pulls focus from the thing you’re trying to get across. just pull a mage stat block and reflavor all the skills to have a level of meta-awareness.
oh sorry that’s a miscommunication! their just like inspired by the concept and have 1 or two of their abilities not like an exact player character sheet. and as much as flavour is great and free I kinda want it to have more of an effect on gameplay then that
that makes more sense! i was so confused. i’m not sure agree with you re: flavor. i think it has a pretty strong effect on gameplay if you reflavor thoughtfully and apply tactfully. what i mean: i assume you’re taking restore balance—all you have to do is reflavor the skill to be because they have some meta-understanding of the game than being from primus. that’s effective and scary, especially if you remove advantage from an important roll and taunt them about it. a simple few lucky points to re-roll any d20 roll could achieve the initiative thing you mentioned or whatever in the combat needs manipulated. i think it’s an interesting idea for a character (reminds me of tiny tina’s wonderlands) but i suppose my style of DMing would use most of his meta-knowledge as a way to inform when to use the abilities he already has and taunt the players about them rather than change his abilities on the character sheet themselves. i’d probably include one interaction where the boss character argues with me, the DM. “really, you’re having me cast firebolt? a cantrip? i want to FIREBALL!” but i’m a big less-is-more DM; i almost never over-design mechanics. i prefer to keep the specifics simple and let everything play out at the table and trust me own improv abilities and known of D&D to create the effect i’m looking to create.