Oh the enthusiasm. Sounds just like me when I started. Thought I could read the market based on the companies I follow most. I learned after a month or so that the saying "90% of new traders lose 90% of their money in 90 days or less" was very real and very true. Granted I had the same mindset as you, eager to learn and willing to risk a little for the experience. One bad trade can eliminate 4 good trades. Learning to cut your losses early and "try again tomorrow" will (hopefully) save you from becoming part of the 90/90/90 like me.
Good luck mate! Don't YOLO your entire account on Intel like me :)
Yep, this is a big thing. And that doesn’t strictly mean “don’t try to gamble on which direction earnings will take a stock.” It also means “don’t hold an option during earnings.” Been there, done that. In general, any big news like that can have a completely random effect on the underlying, and there is no way you can reasonably predict the market’s reaction. Just steer clear of any big news drops.
Of course, I traded SMCI when the run was extremely predictable but now it’s all over the show, Nvidia I have 3k in, ASTS 2k in and will continue to add weekly, day trade GME when I feel like a easy win, other trades are based on earning reports, big dips ect put 1k in Apple before the new announcement and made some small easy gains. I invest a lot of time into research and understand stocks, I’m not emotional and if I think I’ve made a bad move I’ll cut my losses fairly quickly.
That's exactly the case. Fear and greed take the wheel. Fear that I'll lose my +10% profits and greed holds onto the -40% losses. "If I hold this position longer then I could lose all my profits, so I'm cashing out" or "If I hold this losing position just a little longer then it could rebound into a profit". Human psyche is a little bitch
Considering that lower time frames is even harder to control the psyche and emotions, I’ve been about break even for the past few weeks trading the second on NQ, is that a good sign? Is controlling emotions harder when scalping the lower time frames?
I think it's definitely harder to control emotions when scalping because your profit/losses swing so much so quickly. Especially hitting a -20% loss in a few minutes and you tell yourself that "it'll bounce back"... then the next thing you know is that your at -80% because theta ate away at any chance of a profit, even with the asset rebounding in price
Congrats. Everyone eventually blows up at least 1 acct with options tho.
Suggestions, in order:
1. Read "The Disciplined Trader"
2. Read "Best Loser Wins"
3. Read the CMT I curriculum book
First 2 help land your psychological edge. That's 98% of trading.
3rd one walks you through the various systems of trading.
My $.02. Nice start. Don't blow it.
No unfortunately. I bought the previous year's edition to save a bit.
It's the cost of doing business, just like taking losses.
If we wanna trade $1000s, we gotta spend 100s on education.
Well, in a casino you walk in and see a machine you like and your like, yep, that's the one. That's how it feels with my decisions.
I can say I saw RDW before profit earnings report and made ok money on that jump.
I'm curious, how long have you been trading?
Nvm it clearly says in the title.
Do you have a developed strategy?
Do you have a "playbook"?
What's your trading window?
Do you journal your trades everyday?
None of the above.
Kinda sickening sometimes how blind beginners luck can be so dam effective for some and they just shit silk being a sheep
Still. First one is free. Enjoy OP. I'm not salty and jealous at all
Take your profits and go to a sim account if you wanna keep your money. Been there done that, that high you feel being green your first week is one of the worst things for your bankroll. Tread carefully good sir🫡
Take a look at futures as well, I know options are easily accessible but damn futures are a lot more simple and easier in my experience. I got brutally fucked in my experience with options.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Daytrading/s/Rh79qMoyfA
Please refer these books. They are pure gems. They will surely make you a great trader. Best wishes for your endeavour.
I gotta ask, why is everyone so against options day trading if you stick to the %10 W/L rule? I have been able to many times thus far start an account with $100 and get it up anywhere between 8-15k within months by just day trading every day and sticking to the %10. Sure you start really slow but damn do you get momentum once you get that cash flow. Also, side note it is true never put all your eggs in one basket just because you have $1500 doesn't mean to put it all on one bet. It's like roulette if you did that... odds of making it out is slim to none.
I have switched from trading 0dte options to trading stocks that have volatility on the day now. Trust me options are not worth it for a beginner. They add a lot more complexity then you need to deal with when you are especially starting out. Moving over to options after you get experience may make sense, but only after you have a few years of trading under your belt.
Nothing wrong with options, but 10% is far too much risk. Seriously, I trade algorithmically, and even the best strategies can't do 10% risk without significant drawdown. Just do a simulation of 100 trades with a favorable RR; you'll be shocked at the drawdown.
Side note: This subreddit has become ridiculously amateurish, to the point where there is literally 0 value to be gained. Just blows my mind that people think they can learn to daytrade from youtube.
No 10% of your initial buy in. Not your entire account. Let's say I made 3 calls on spy for $100 a pop your looking at $10 profit from each contract. Plus you can scale in buying multiple contracts like this riding the wave up or down depending on your option. With a small cash account starting out $30 profit on a $500 cash account is very good. Now you will not always get %10 obviously but if your good you can cash out if you notice the dip coming. If you miss the incoming dip that's where your stop loss comes into play so you only lose $10 instead of the whole initial $100. Your gunna have losses but the goal is to have your trading strategy down pat. Now when you get up to say your trade/trades are $1000 from a much larger cash account. You could easily make more than most people do in one day that are working a 9-5 job. Gotta be mentally strong and stick with your trading strategy. If you don't you'll lose every time!
MY MAN. Take your money. Step tf back.
This is your free newbie win.
First time i touched the market I turned 900dollars into 1800. Then watched it drop down to 800 and got out.
Go to Google. Type reddit daytrading risk managment.
Or just search this reddit sub for "risk managment".
If this is gambling think if a professional gamblers risk managment.
You have your bankroll.
Your bet size.
How much that stock tends to move "some things will move .50 cents up or down a day, other things may move 1-6 dollars a day.
An there are even things which move 20,60,90 dollars a day for a single share (price of share varies).
Like wise you could end up with something cheap that only moves .20 cents a day but you buy 1000 shares and now your positioned in for 10 dollar per penny movement. Drops 5 pennies and you're down 50 bucks.
See? As someone who's never blown their account, risk managment is priority number 1.
Not having a solid risk managment is how you blow your account.
Over trading. Revenge trading.
Holding onto losing trades.
Too big of positions sizes.
Etc.
You got your free win dude. Take it and learn while you grow your account. Imo.
Options are also tricky. LEARN THEM. Some options plays have a fixed lost "cost of your premium (the amount it took to buy it)".
Other options have infinite risk an you can lose way more than you even have in your account.
Personally I only trade shares atm. I plan to move into options but not till I have much more capital.
I would say take that money and learn or maybe don’t start daytrading with options if you don’t understand them. But you probably won’t listen, it’s the circle of life.
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You got a very bad start into your (day)trading adventure. The worst thing that can happen for you is to have a good run. Sooner or later you will have a slump or even a borderline desaster. The more you have the impression that you do everything good enough to always be profitable the longer it will take for you to accept defeat. I have seen people blowing accounts left and right as they could not accept that the first profits were more or less some luck.
Whatever you do, remember the first rule of trading: Protect your account!
Play it safe and have your risk management on point at all times!
Welcome to Casino table eventually you will blow it all. The way to keep going is to never quit come back and be cautious! These stocks swing around like my 3rd leg!!!
I always tell people, the worst thing that can happen to someone in the market is to come in and win big right out of the gate.
It makes people think they have some intrinsic talent that is mysteriously absent from other humans...
They don't.
You should do a daily post with your positions while everyone tells you it's gonna blow up.
Then dissappear.
More seriously, buy IN THE MONEY options with far out dates.
Don't buy multiple contracts or overload your portfolio.
Don't be greedy.
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Didn't burn this Friday! Almost did. NVIDA dip this morning at open almost made me sell. I held my 130 and 132 call options and that rebound recouped me into the green. I should do a weekly post till I blow up my account.
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You're not kidding, Nvidia swing down today almost got me. That bump back to 131 saved me. Had some call option expiring today, and I was down about 50% at close yesterday. Recouped all and a small small win. Not much to celebrate but recouped a bad call option choice.
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I’ll give you the best advice as someone it took a few months to start making about 500-600 a wk from day trading. #1 rule is CUT YOUR LOSSES EARLY if you get in on a bad trade. If you get in too high and the price starts falling cut that loss at 2-3%, etc. DO NOT wait until you’re down 10-15% to cut the loss. Take the $20-30 hit and move on. Next rule is wake up sometime around market open. For me it’s 6:30am (pacific time). I get up around 7-8am and get on Daily Price Jumps on Robinhood. Be very careful which stock you select. Find a stock you think is going to continue going up or going to rebound that was previously up. I have found luck is some stocks that are up around 20% and then they break that resistance level and rocket up 45-50% to get into the top 5 category. Just watch them very carefully. Another rule of thumb is if you’re up 20-30% just sell and take the profit. Don’t be very hopefully your going to rocket up 100+% plus and loose out on taking that profit while you have it. Hope this helps!
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Great time to stop trading and start long term investing.
If you want to trade, use a paper account.
You will lose all your money if you keep day trading
Congrats on making $150 after taxes on Apples best day ever.
Right place right time.
Id rather new traders lose to know what not to do.
You are learning what not to do and its working, which is even worse.
Good luck mate (youre gonna need it)
Such a stupid post should be an insta ban. “HOw I’d dO” with a 235% gain.
Why do you need to brag and pass it as an asking for advice post? It’s unbelievably cringe and kind of makes the case that you will not make it trading. Your first little win clearly gambling and you can’t contain your ego imagine what happens when you get your first big loss.
You are going to blow it all with options. Seen that too often. But it’s part of the journey.
Facts. Let him cook.
I like the kitchen.
Good. You’ll be working in there soon.
Damn that's cold
Usually it's hot and sweaty in the kitchen, so he will warm up.
Hilarious gonna get smacked back to reality. Pretty hard not to make money rn lol
Damn. Why did you do him like that ?
Hell’s Kitchen w/ Gordon Ramsey
Let him cook now!
Yes def
Correct. I’m in GA now.
I did, no more Reinvesting my dividends. Lol it is part of the journey I guess?
Oh the enthusiasm. Sounds just like me when I started. Thought I could read the market based on the companies I follow most. I learned after a month or so that the saying "90% of new traders lose 90% of their money in 90 days or less" was very real and very true. Granted I had the same mindset as you, eager to learn and willing to risk a little for the experience. One bad trade can eliminate 4 good trades. Learning to cut your losses early and "try again tomorrow" will (hopefully) save you from becoming part of the 90/90/90 like me. Good luck mate! Don't YOLO your entire account on Intel like me :)
Solid, solid advice
Lol I'll try not to!
I did alright until I started playing earnings like a degenerate, so stay away from that at the very least.
Yep, this is a big thing. And that doesn’t strictly mean “don’t try to gamble on which direction earnings will take a stock.” It also means “don’t hold an option during earnings.” Been there, done that. In general, any big news like that can have a completely random effect on the underlying, and there is no way you can reasonably predict the market’s reaction. Just steer clear of any big news drops.
90 days in and I’m up 20% don’t mess with options though yes haven’t done enough research
If your not trading options, are you just trading stocks? How?
Just buying and selling stocks I’m a very simple person haven’t learnt enough about options
Which stocks do you normally trade, if you dont mind me asking
Of course, I traded SMCI when the run was extremely predictable but now it’s all over the show, Nvidia I have 3k in, ASTS 2k in and will continue to add weekly, day trade GME when I feel like a easy win, other trades are based on earning reports, big dips ect put 1k in Apple before the new announcement and made some small easy gains. I invest a lot of time into research and understand stocks, I’m not emotional and if I think I’ve made a bad move I’ll cut my losses fairly quickly.
How can a bad trade eliminate 4 good trades? Are you not using stop losses and managing your risks?
That's exactly the case. Fear and greed take the wheel. Fear that I'll lose my +10% profits and greed holds onto the -40% losses. "If I hold this position longer then I could lose all my profits, so I'm cashing out" or "If I hold this losing position just a little longer then it could rebound into a profit". Human psyche is a little bitch
Considering that lower time frames is even harder to control the psyche and emotions, I’ve been about break even for the past few weeks trading the second on NQ, is that a good sign? Is controlling emotions harder when scalping the lower time frames?
I think it's definitely harder to control emotions when scalping because your profit/losses swing so much so quickly. Especially hitting a -20% loss in a few minutes and you tell yourself that "it'll bounce back"... then the next thing you know is that your at -80% because theta ate away at any chance of a profit, even with the asset rebounding in price
logic
Congrats. Everyone eventually blows up at least 1 acct with options tho. Suggestions, in order: 1. Read "The Disciplined Trader" 2. Read "Best Loser Wins" 3. Read the CMT I curriculum book First 2 help land your psychological edge. That's 98% of trading. 3rd one walks you through the various systems of trading. My $.02. Nice start. Don't blow it.
This is the perfect advice here. Also add Trading in The Zone
Definitely. TitZ (what an acronym) is a classic, but has bits of overlap from Disc Trader too. Solid reads
Yes. It overlaps for most of the part.
isnt titz too superficial and outdated now lol
This is what I need. Thank you sir.
What do you think of How to day trade for a living?
Not bad. I only wanted 3 bullets though. It's an okay book.
[удалено]
No unfortunately. I bought the previous year's edition to save a bit. It's the cost of doing business, just like taking losses. If we wanna trade $1000s, we gotta spend 100s on education.
You can get a free copy online somewhere probably. Most books now are available online for free however you should obviously support the author first.
its only a casino if you treat it like one.
Well, in a casino you walk in and see a machine you like and your like, yep, that's the one. That's how it feels with my decisions. I can say I saw RDW before profit earnings report and made ok money on that jump.
I'm curious, how long have you been trading? Nvm it clearly says in the title. Do you have a developed strategy? Do you have a "playbook"? What's your trading window? Do you journal your trades everyday?
None of the above. Kinda sickening sometimes how blind beginners luck can be so dam effective for some and they just shit silk being a sheep Still. First one is free. Enjoy OP. I'm not salty and jealous at all
Take your profits and go to a sim account if you wanna keep your money. Been there done that, that high you feel being green your first week is one of the worst things for your bankroll. Tread carefully good sir🫡
The most sound advice. Ty good sir
Take a look at futures as well, I know options are easily accessible but damn futures are a lot more simple and easier in my experience. I got brutally fucked in my experience with options.
I second this - time decay won’t eat you alive if the market is sideways and you keep more after taxes
For real ? I am trying to stay away from options as much as possible.
How do you manage risk ?
No clue what you are speaking my guy. Educate my dumb self.
How do you protect your account when trades go against you ?
Get out when it goes south? Ima have to look at up to see.
You are a very sweet beginner 😊. Aren't you ?
Green horns have more experience than I do.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Daytrading/s/Rh79qMoyfA Please refer these books. They are pure gems. They will surely make you a great trader. Best wishes for your endeavour.
What if i know absolutely nothing. are those books still good for me? or more for someone who knows something?
If you know nothing about trading then it is plus point for you as your mind would be a clean slate and it would be easy to grasp those books
Bless your heart 😭.
I know that's a souther insult but I'll take it haha.
For southerners yes, I’m not tho! I genuinely meant it 😂😭.
Hey. We sometimes mean it! 😂
I gotta ask, why is everyone so against options day trading if you stick to the %10 W/L rule? I have been able to many times thus far start an account with $100 and get it up anywhere between 8-15k within months by just day trading every day and sticking to the %10. Sure you start really slow but damn do you get momentum once you get that cash flow. Also, side note it is true never put all your eggs in one basket just because you have $1500 doesn't mean to put it all on one bet. It's like roulette if you did that... odds of making it out is slim to none.
I have switched from trading 0dte options to trading stocks that have volatility on the day now. Trust me options are not worth it for a beginner. They add a lot more complexity then you need to deal with when you are especially starting out. Moving over to options after you get experience may make sense, but only after you have a few years of trading under your belt.
Nothing wrong with options, but 10% is far too much risk. Seriously, I trade algorithmically, and even the best strategies can't do 10% risk without significant drawdown. Just do a simulation of 100 trades with a favorable RR; you'll be shocked at the drawdown. Side note: This subreddit has become ridiculously amateurish, to the point where there is literally 0 value to be gained. Just blows my mind that people think they can learn to daytrade from youtube.
No 10% of your initial buy in. Not your entire account. Let's say I made 3 calls on spy for $100 a pop your looking at $10 profit from each contract. Plus you can scale in buying multiple contracts like this riding the wave up or down depending on your option. With a small cash account starting out $30 profit on a $500 cash account is very good. Now you will not always get %10 obviously but if your good you can cash out if you notice the dip coming. If you miss the incoming dip that's where your stop loss comes into play so you only lose $10 instead of the whole initial $100. Your gunna have losses but the goal is to have your trading strategy down pat. Now when you get up to say your trade/trades are $1000 from a much larger cash account. You could easily make more than most people do in one day that are working a 9-5 job. Gotta be mentally strong and stick with your trading strategy. If you don't you'll lose every time!
Never have all the eggs in one basket lol. Love it my guy. Thanks for the motivation.
This seems like he’s just gambling since he’s holding options positions lol
Gotcha, makes sense I just saw his dates. Take profites when you can no matter how small.
“Trading” he says. And proceeds to post a RH screenshot lol
And the fact that this showed up on my front page means this sub is dead. Time to mute
MY MAN. Take your money. Step tf back. This is your free newbie win. First time i touched the market I turned 900dollars into 1800. Then watched it drop down to 800 and got out. Go to Google. Type reddit daytrading risk managment. Or just search this reddit sub for "risk managment". If this is gambling think if a professional gamblers risk managment. You have your bankroll. Your bet size. How much that stock tends to move "some things will move .50 cents up or down a day, other things may move 1-6 dollars a day. An there are even things which move 20,60,90 dollars a day for a single share (price of share varies). Like wise you could end up with something cheap that only moves .20 cents a day but you buy 1000 shares and now your positioned in for 10 dollar per penny movement. Drops 5 pennies and you're down 50 bucks. See? As someone who's never blown their account, risk managment is priority number 1. Not having a solid risk managment is how you blow your account. Over trading. Revenge trading. Holding onto losing trades. Too big of positions sizes. Etc. You got your free win dude. Take it and learn while you grow your account. Imo. Options are also tricky. LEARN THEM. Some options plays have a fixed lost "cost of your premium (the amount it took to buy it)". Other options have infinite risk an you can lose way more than you even have in your account. Personally I only trade shares atm. I plan to move into options but not till I have much more capital.
I would say take that money and learn or maybe don’t start daytrading with options if you don’t understand them. But you probably won’t listen, it’s the circle of life.
You know me so well. Are you my soul mate?
Only thing that matters is what you file on your taxes next year.
Solid point.
Don’t let it get to your head… everyone made money on apple this week.
Not me, I bought puts.
Rip
Only 51 weeks to go. When do you start at Renaissance Capital by the way?
You will be my exit liquidity soon
You still have money, you’re doing it wrong
Bad, bad, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good.
Keep it up but switch over to a real trading platform
The vibe of some of these comments reminds me of 1999 and 2007.
What app is that?
The worst one to use.
What app is that I’m in vegas aswell and etoro doesn’t work here
Not good
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You picked a good week, but don't get accustomed to constant success.
Wendy’s eagerly await your application.
New phone, who's that?
It’s definitely like throwing dice at the crap table
First week keep that confidence you’ll need it
First one is free
You'll need about 100 more of those to see if you are a winning player.
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Bro is about to lose it all
Very nice, now do it 5 days a week, 365 days a year!
$aapl $235? 6/21?
Good old Robinhood options trading. There’s a reason I moved to intra day trading lol
literally gambling, nice one!
Yeah I did this too. Next month I lost thousands. Now I don’t play options and try my best not to fuck with meme stocks.
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Stop while you're ahead and go paper trade for at least a month. You'll learn that way. I recommend the ThinkOrSwim platform.
Careful OP.. this was one of the easiest weeks in the market in months.
take it out rn please 😭😭😭😭 after that learn futures trust me
Get out now before you gain confidence and lose it all.
You should really start selling options. I think you’re ready.
We all start like this. And we all know how it goes
Looks like you’re hooked
Take the money and run 🏃♂️
Interactive brokers have a trading academy which is worth checking out.
You got a very bad start into your (day)trading adventure. The worst thing that can happen for you is to have a good run. Sooner or later you will have a slump or even a borderline desaster. The more you have the impression that you do everything good enough to always be profitable the longer it will take for you to accept defeat. I have seen people blowing accounts left and right as they could not accept that the first profits were more or less some luck. Whatever you do, remember the first rule of trading: Protect your account! Play it safe and have your risk management on point at all times!
Doing much much better than me good job you!!
I lost $800 usd so far this week
Welcome to Casino table eventually you will blow it all. The way to keep going is to never quit come back and be cautious! These stocks swing around like my 3rd leg!!!
Either pull it all now and walk away with plus forever or keep going and expect to be in red for a long time
goodjob, just don't try to double down when you are negative betting on a reversal. once ur like 20% just get out and minimize your loss.
Got lucky.
I always tell people, the worst thing that can happen to someone in the market is to come in and win big right out of the gate. It makes people think they have some intrinsic talent that is mysteriously absent from other humans... They don't.
You should do a daily post with your positions while everyone tells you it's gonna blow up. Then dissappear. More seriously, buy IN THE MONEY options with far out dates. Don't buy multiple contracts or overload your portfolio. Don't be greedy.
my dog could make money buying calls in this market.
Does your dog want a job?
Picked a week where the entire index was ramping up okay lol
235c lmao
Take out whatever you put in to get started. Only gamble on house money.
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Today Nvida almost brought me down! Not today Satan
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Does anyone in here use LPP (learn plan profit) Ricky Gutierrez course?
Please be back to talk about the crash and burn 🔥
Didn't burn this Friday! Almost did. NVIDA dip this morning at open almost made me sell. I held my 130 and 132 call options and that rebound recouped me into the green. I should do a weekly post till I blow up my account.
I made 75% of the green kind in a week of my 10k account. One week later I made 90 of the red kind.
Thought I was on wsb for a second
I think you are doing well, practice is the master
RISK MANAGAMENT!!!
Dumb as fuck question. Correct question is: “who here makes 5% a month consistently?”
greatings, man
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You are gambling.
Doing great, kid.
Bro gets lucky on one trade that he had no technical basis for making and thinks he has it figured out. Sounds about right
Ill let you know what my moves are for tomorrow so you too can earn like me!
I started as a positional trader. I would buy stocks on delivery basis and sell them in a month or so.
https://preview.redd.it/7m1wc2xrjc6d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d92ae856950279cc2747c46f5c7ca97be81bad7e
If you don’t know what you’re doing it IS a casino. If you know what you’re doing, it’s still a casino.
What app is that ?
You picked a good week to start. Just remember everyone blows up their account twice before they start making real profit lol
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keep it up you are naturelly good at it
Some good info in this thread .. Keep grinding
They say out there that the first one is free, good luck on the journey 🫡
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Read the book VPA by Anna coullins
First day week trading.
What's the strategy you did here mate?
You got lucky Fridahy. That’s all.
You're not kidding, Nvidia swing down today almost got me. That bump back to 131 saved me. Had some call option expiring today, and I was down about 50% at close yesterday. Recouped all and a small small win. Not much to celebrate but recouped a bad call option choice.
Why are there 2 colors? Shouldn’t it be left to right top to bottom?
Good job !
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I’ll give you the best advice as someone it took a few months to start making about 500-600 a wk from day trading. #1 rule is CUT YOUR LOSSES EARLY if you get in on a bad trade. If you get in too high and the price starts falling cut that loss at 2-3%, etc. DO NOT wait until you’re down 10-15% to cut the loss. Take the $20-30 hit and move on. Next rule is wake up sometime around market open. For me it’s 6:30am (pacific time). I get up around 7-8am and get on Daily Price Jumps on Robinhood. Be very careful which stock you select. Find a stock you think is going to continue going up or going to rebound that was previously up. I have found luck is some stocks that are up around 20% and then they break that resistance level and rocket up 45-50% to get into the top 5 category. Just watch them very carefully. Another rule of thumb is if you’re up 20-30% just sell and take the profit. Don’t be very hopefully your going to rocket up 100+% plus and loose out on taking that profit while you have it. Hope this helps!
I dont know how this shit works but beginners luck is different kind of bread
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Great time to stop trading and start long term investing. If you want to trade, use a paper account. You will lose all your money if you keep day trading
Congrats on making $150 after taxes on Apples best day ever. Right place right time. Id rather new traders lose to know what not to do. You are learning what not to do and its working, which is even worse. Good luck mate (youre gonna need it)
Such a stupid post should be an insta ban. “HOw I’d dO” with a 235% gain. Why do you need to brag and pass it as an asking for advice post? It’s unbelievably cringe and kind of makes the case that you will not make it trading. Your first little win clearly gambling and you can’t contain your ego imagine what happens when you get your first big loss.