This post has been locked. There is already an antinatalism subreddit. While exploring these ethical concerns is valid, directly calling for humanity's extinction is inhumane, antithetical to the spirit of this community, and will result in a ban. Thank you to the majority of thinkers who demonstrated care and thoughtfulness in the comments.
Or Efilism, the desire for suffering to end for ALL life, not just human life.
But OP is right, for religious people it is even worse, they bring a child into the world to be judged by a harsh god that will may end up torturing them forever in eternity. So yea, religious parents are the most evil of all.
Which is why I don't think of it as a religion lol most of the religions I come across involve a diety of some kind usually.
When I come across one that doesn't, my brain hurts.
Pantheism, if you want to consider that a religion(it fits the definition) is a pretty good choice in my mind for a "right religion."
Pantheism, for those unaware, is the belief that the universe itself is more or less "God."
Omnisim, the belief that all religions are the "right one," is another good candidate.
yeah, came here to say just this. I deeply agree with this line of thinking, especially because a lot of us have no want or wish to be alive in the state of the world as it is today.
I occasionally try to browse through that subreddit
Saddest group of motherfuckers I've ever seen. Genuinely hope most of them get therapy or a good hug from a close friend or something
They're literally not because that's not what antinatalism is. Antinatalism argues that having children is unethical due to the amount they will suffer.
1. It's literally not. Being forced to die isn't necessarily suffering. If someone kills you in your sleep, they've forced you to die, but you haven't suffered from it.
2. Does being forced to die in the sense of how OP means it beget more suffering than joy and other positive things? That depends on your life.
3. Antinatalism doesn't state that because ANY suffering exists that procreation is immoral, but that the amount of suffering an average life contains is so great that it is immoral.
Any of these three interpretations rebutt your question.
You mean to life against your will? Not necessarily wrong. Though consent can only be given in life. And in fact, I hope this doesn't sound suicidal, but we do in fact can check out at any time we wish for the most part. That then, is at least consent still.
Regardless, I do think you have a point. But what I said above isn't that one I wanted to talk about. I think consent is an illusion. I mean we experience so many things in our lives beyond our control. You don't choose your parents. You don't choose your childhood experiences. You don't choose the struggles, or even your joys in life. What is consent? Who are you?
We can’t check out any time we wish when we have some inexplicable being shoving us back into our body every single time we try. Do you know how annoying that is? It’s genuinely rage inducing and you have no idea how difficult it is to actually kill yourself when it keeps happening.
When we talk about things like this, my opinion is that the naive argument of consent has gone too far. Life is full of stuff that happens to you without your consent. Deal with it. Much of the consent argument gone too far is people trying to grab hold of what little power over their lives that they can.
I agree. What bothers me is THIS particular argument.
I get the spirit of it, but it is fucking impossible to give any kind of consent before or during birth. Or even after. Babies can't talk and don't understand the concept of consent.
So case closed, right? Why is this still a thing?
Welcome to the reality of the biological imperative.
Each one of your cells has the directive of trying to survive until it has run past its course. Your organism is also equipped by design to take those very distinctive set of directives (DNA), and pass them forward to a new living organism (your offspring).
If following the biological imperative is wrong, then the Universe is wrong.
Who are you to dare questioning the Universe?
Me. I'll question it.
Not everyone wants to reproduce. I have ZERO desire to have children. If that biological and universal need to have offspring is there, then I'm fucking ignoring the call.
I'm not going to ruin my life (and the child's) by having kids I don't want and I'd make their lives miserable because other people think everyone NEEDS to have children to fully live life.
For what it's worth, I get what you're saying, and I think there's a biological component to all of it like you're saying. But not every person is going to, or will want to, have children.
If you don’t want kids, then don’t have kids .🤣 that doesn’t make it inhumane for others to have kids. Diversity is important , and you deciding not to procreate is a your choice. Everyone is wired differently and you have your life experiences that have helped shape the way you view the world which is why you’re making the case that having kids is inhumane in the first place
I agree that some people should not have kids. Children deserve well rounded parents.
But you still comply with the biological imperative when you feed yourself or when you get sleep.
\* Bro goes on a fast and stops sleeping \*
From the purely materialistic perspective, there is no right or wrong for the Universe. It’s just the entropy of the sun slowly releasing energy through hydrogen fusion, and fauna and flora capitalising on it for as long as they can.
It’s like asking if it is “fair” that water flows downstream.
We have to step down from materialism and get into existentialism to debate the problem of evil.
If life could be described as an opportunity to create meaningful connections, some people would be described as missing opportunities to establish connections, or as having to endure meaningless or harmful connections.
OP concluded that suffering makes living unjustifiable.
I am not minimising or belittling the suffering that they might have experienced, but there are people who get more good things out of life than bad ones. To them, suffering isn’t enough to make life unjustifiable.
"I got this letter from home recently because I haven't been taking real good care of my money. It said, 'Sam, you're out of control, you don't know what you're doing, we've given you enough money...and we think it's time you were on your own.' So I called my parents, said, 'Hey, Mom, why don't you bring Dad in the room, I'd like him to hear this too. You know, before I was born, I was a shining light in the cosmos. There was no weakness, only strength. There were no questions, only answers. But you two had to FUCK AND BRING ME DOWN HERE! YOU DIDN'T BRING ME INTO THIS WORLD SO I COULD WORK AT A FUCKING WINCHELL'S!! FUCK YOU, MOM! PICK UP THE FUCKING CHECK! PICK IT UP!!"
- Sam Kinison
I agree but honestly the only problem is that we don't have euthanasia on request available. We should be able to quit reliably at any time but the option is not available.
None of the easily available ways aren’t scary. We need a way that avoids the natural fear instinct so that doesn’t cause even more suffering. The whole point is to get rid of suffering.
I meant that if we all stop having children the human race will end because no one will be born, you can still die of natural causes, I thought that was clear
I should rephrase. I don't think enough of the human race would ever decide it wasn't worth having children to have that effect. You'd have to get concensus from billions and billions of people, and that just isn't happening willingly. Unwillingly of course is a different story.
Correct. Being alive is a guarantee of suffering. Humans, in particular, are known to suffer even when things are going well in the present because they dwell on past suffering and speculate about future suffering. It is cruel and unethical to bring more humans into existence knowing these facts.
Being born is being forced to live. But I don’t think that a child would rather choose death, I think the desire to die happens as soon as life gets complicated, or when something horrible happens. A child and its happiness is just how everyone would feel if we wouldn’t have normal day problems (ykwim? Sorry English is not my first language)
Depends on your philosophy.
Many spiritual people believe our souls choose to reincarnate into this specific life.
As Earth is just a kind of school.
I believe this myself aswel.
I believe I did consent to being born and choose this life specifically.
(Note that I had a lot of trauma and abuse in my life, so I certainly didn’t have it easy. Still I firmly believe I choose this suffering myself as a way to grow. And grow I did.)
“Spiritual Philosophy” or just spirituality I guess.
But I would argue it is not “faith based.”
It can be for some but also for millions throughout history it has been a literal experience as clear as drinking water or breathing air.
I used to be an Atheist my whole life until I had a profound spiritual experience or “Awakening” a few years ago.
For me it is not an “belief” or “faith.” It is an undeniable fact to me and an experience more real then day to day reality itself.
For me it happened during an psychedelic experience on a large dose of psilocybin mushrooms.
We call it “Ego Death” or a spiritual “awakening” and can be triggered through various ways.
These states of consciousness and philosophical conclusions have been reached by millions of diverse people in diverse ways throughout history.
Either through kundalini yoga, intense breathing exercises, extensive meditation, high-heroic doses of psychedelics or other spiritual practices.
But it can also be achieved by prolonged sensory deprivation, near death experiences or sudden severe trauma.
These ideas and experiences repeat themselves in all kind of cultures throughout history around the globe.
Often without any awareness of each other.
And this experience has been the Origins of all spirituality and eventually mythology and religions.
“Ego Death” is this extreme realisation and sensation of oneness and connection to literally everything in the universe.
That most can only describe as you becoming aware that you are just a “human incarnation” of the collective consciousness of the universe.
That there exists no individuality, that your consciousness is as old as the universe itself.
And that you hold a connection with your consciousness to literally all energy and vibration in the universe.
See your brain as an antenna and the collective consciousness as a universal "internet."
You are just tuned in to a specific frequency now. But your consciousness has access to it all somewhere.
Nowadays this theory is even getting more popular with scientists, academics and philosophers and there have been multiple scientific articles published the last few years with them speculating the Universe is conscious.
People like Einstein and Tesla also made this argument. People like Alan Watts, Ram Dass and other Spiritual philosophers also talked in length about these phenomenon.
Now, what that exactly entails is still just our personal human interpretation and guesswork.
But this pattern repeats itself in so much of history and the known world.
It shows itself in religions and mythologies, Architecture and Language. But also in physics, mathematics, geometry, biology and many other disciplines.
The belief that we return to this collective consciousness after our physical existence concludes reinforces the idea that our journey is not confined to individual, isolated experiences but is part of a broader cosmic narrative.
Religion and the idea that “God” is a separate entity that exists outside of your self, in this view: is perceived as just a human attempt to understand and interpret spiritual and psychedelic experiences.
Creating doctrines and beliefs that may not necessarily reflect an objective truth. It emphasizes the subjective nature of religious interpretations, encouraging a more open-minded exploration of spirituality that doesn’t depend on rigid dogmas.
I believe this too and I’ve been through a lot of difficult and challenging experiences in my life that have definitely made me grow as a person.
I’ve watched a lot of NDE videos and it resonated with me how so many of them talk about learning that we live multiple lives and that we choose which lives we have.
NDE’s, long sensory deprivation, kundalini yoga, intense meditation, psychedelic experiences etc.
They all seem to tell us this exact same thing.
It can’t be a coincidence in my opinion.
Agreed, the problem with the "I don't remember consenting to be here" crowd is exactly that. They don't *remember* but they infact did consent. If you have an entirely materialist and anti-spiritual perspective like many who frequent this app do you're going to be left upset.
There no compelling evidence for any faith - Life is meaningless, morality is a lie - As such, concerning yourself with consent for birth is irrelevant.
the spiritual explanation.
In the the context of the belief that “we are the universe experiencing ourselves,” spirituality revolves around the idea that our individual existence is intricately connected to the vast cosmos.
It suggests that, at a fundamental level, we are not isolated beings but integral components of a collective consciousness often referred to as “god” or the universe.
Another way many describe it; is its the realisation that:
We are “God” or the universe it’s consciousness; putting on a “Human suit” and experiencing itself from our eyes.
That the universe made this life to experience itself in full.
And diverse forms of consciousness and life might be happening all over the universe.
We do not “come from Earth” but instead we “come OUT of the Earth.” And are connected to this planet and the cosmos as a whole as much as every animal, plant, fungi and even the elements like fire, water, air and earth.
Spirituality, in this sense, encourages an exploration of the profound interconnection between ourselves and the greater cosmos and the various "dimensions" it brings.
It invites individuals to recognize that their experiences, consciousness, and essence are part of a larger, universal tapestry.
This perspective emphasizes a sense of unity, transcending the notion of separation between individuals and the universe.
As we navigate our lives, spiritual practices and reflections may involve seeking a deeper understanding of this interconnectedness, exploring the mysteries of existence, and recognizing the divine within ourselves.
This is what is referred to as trying to achieve “awakening” or “enlightenment.”
We in the psychedelic community know it as “Ego Death.”
(Note there is Ego dissolution and there is Full Ego Death.)
“Ego Death” is this extreme realisation and sensation of oneness and connection to literally everything in the universe.
That most can only describe as you becoming aware that you are just a “human incarnation” of the collective consciousness of the universe.
That there exists no individuality, that your consciousness is as old as the universe itself.
And that you hold a connection with your consciousness to literally all energy and vibration in the universe.
See your brain as an antenna and the collective consciousness as a universal "internet."
You are just tuned in to a specific frequency now. But your consciousness has access to it all somewhere.
A increasingly popular theory is that Psychedelics may open up the possibility to "tune in" to a bit more of the collective and peer through the physical “veil” into the other “dimensions” in the universe.
A successful connection with that collective consciousness, that universal “internet;” That is what "Ego Death,” “Awakening,” “Enlightenment” is.
Similar like connecting a computer to the internet with WiFi.
Through the way of psychedelics, this is a temporary state, while you will retain a lot of the knowledge given during these states, the feeling will be fleeting.
And eventually “ego” will have stabilised and your consciousness back to be fully focused on this physical dimension.
With the increasing popularity and access of psychedelics more and more people are starting to have these experiences.
And less and less people are instantly dismissing this mystical psychedelic experience as pure hallucination and drug induced delusions.
These states of consciousness and philosophical conclusions have been reached by millions of diverse people in diverse ways throughout history.
Either through kundalini yoga, intense breathing exercises, extensive meditation, high-heroic doses of psychedelics or other spiritual practices.
But it can also be achieved by prolonged sensory deprivation, near death experiences or sudden severe trauma.
These ideas and experiences repeat themselves in all kind of cultures throughout history around the globe.
Often without any awareness of each other.
Nowadays this theory is even getting more popular with scientists, academics and philosophers and there have been multiple scientific articles published the last few years with them speculating the Universe is conscious.
People like Einstein and Tesla also made this argument. People like Alan Watts, Ram Dass and other Spiritual philosophers also talked in length about these phenomenon.
Now, what that exactly entails is still just our personal human interpretation and guesswork.
But this pattern repeats itself in so much of history and the known world.
It shows itself in religions and mythologies, Architecture and Language. But also in physics, mathematics, geometry, biology and many other disciplines.
The belief that we return to this collective consciousness after our physical existence concludes reinforces the idea that our journey is not confined to individual, isolated experiences but is part of a broader cosmic narrative.
Religion and the idea that “God” is a separate entity that exists outside of your self, in this view: is perceived as just a human attempt to understand and interpret spiritual and psychedelic experiences.
Creating doctrines and beliefs that may not necessarily reflect an objective truth. It emphasizes the subjective nature of religious interpretations, encouraging a more open-minded exploration of spirituality that doesn’t depend on rigid dogmas.
That implies that whatever you believe makes up *you* (soul, brain, whatever) exists before you were conceived. For you to have been wronged, you must exist before the wrong happened, not as a product of it.
It’s an interesting secular parallel to “original sin”
But the argument doesn’t make sense. If you don’t want to exist, you don’t have to- undoing your existence is really easy- so easy that you have to actively work to exist in order to exist. If anti-natalism people actually believed that they would prefer to not exist, they wouldn’t.
Complete nonsense.
Of course you can't consent. You can't consent to something when you don't exist, don't have language, and don't have thoughts.
Therefore you have to be born and specifically become human before you can even have the intelligence and language required to express such a stupid thought as "birth is literally the same as murder".
Consider yourself fortunate to be among the extremely limited number of entities in the universe capable of speaking such nonsense and do something with your godlike powers instead of whining on the Internet.
When I have kids, I'm going to be like "Ight kid, some jerks brought me into this world without my permission, now I'm bringing you into this world. Welcome to life, jerk"
You can’t bring yourself back to life if you don’t like where getting murdered gets you.
You can undo being made alive.
It’s not an optimistic way of looking at things, but it is a meaningful difference between conceiving and killing.
None of that takes away from the non consensual aspect of being forced into existence.
If someone kidnaps you, but you're able to escape, did that make the kidnapping any less non consensual?
I found a quick way to jump planets. If all humans die on this one and theres some (procreating humans) on another planet in another time and if reincarnation (to human bodies only) is real and if time doesn't actually exist, we just all die here and born somewhere else.
GENIUS!
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Until many years after birth, informed consent isn't a possibility. That logically entails your assertion is moot.
Would you also assert that infants ought not be given medical care because they, also, cannot give informed consent?
The concept of consent, or even of preference, exists only for beings that already exist. The statement that "I didn't consent to being born" implies as if you existed in some shape or form before you were conceived.
No we don’t but the fact is we ARE all here and no matter our hardships, we can make the best of it or give up, or be angry, or just stagnate in place. Those are all choices we can make.
I choose to make the best of every day I’m still here. I may not be able to touch or taste or hear or smell or see wherever I go from here so I’m going to love all of it now.
Consent is a necessary concept in the world of humans to discuss morality, not physical/biological properties like being alive. We all didn't consent to gravity either and here we are, not floating in space.
Anyway, life leads to death and death leads to fear. So I get it, we suffer. But this chaos led to the formation of the Beach Boys so it can't all be that bad.
This assumes a blanket rule around consent, which is not used in any aspect of society. Yesterday my wife bought an extra snack and gave it to me, I didn't consent to it, but I appreciated it. She knew me well enough to know that I would consent. If you apply this same nuance to parenting, you get a much more elegant statement.
Something like. Parents who cannot give children a decent life, (a life that a person WOULD consent to) should not be parents.
Yet even then you have many children born into terrible childhoods who would still choose to be born. Who are you to take away someone's desire (a form of consent) to be born, even if it's after the fact?
Point being. This topic isn't as black and white as reddit seems to present it every month or so.
You do consent to being born. You’re just not really a human lmao. You’re God/Nature forgetting itself, so of course we wouldn’t know that. No, I’m not joking😅 I heavily disagree with you, so good deep thought.
You must be straight blind to the joys in life. I haven't had an easy life, I don't think many people have but I can still find the joys in life be them little or large. Things as simple as that first stretch in the morning after you wake up, hearing a child's laughter while they're playing, seeing the sun set or rise, driving a care really fast, finding a problem and fixing it etc. There's so many things in life that are easily worth the troubles and even worth risking the pain of dying.
animals are not sentient and therefore they cannot consent one way or another so it’s OK to do whatever you want with them, but human beings is a different matter.
Most people don't consent to dying either but life moves forward regardless of our wants and needs. Birth is just a fact of life. You can make a personal choice to not have children for that reason, but as animals, human beings have the same drive to reproduce that all life does. Its natural to reproduce and nature doesnt care about consent. Those who have kids, we dont always consent to what gender they are born, sexual identity, appearence, health, etc. all of that happens without our consent from natural processes. In the modern world where human beings have evolved to have more control over our base impulses and developed empathy, so we try our best to build a society that has laws that protect others. Consent is important in sexual encounters and in things where there is potential harm or consequences when two parties engage in an act, but letting the entire human race die cause babies dont consent to be born? Doesnt really make sense and I dont think the word consent really applies in this situation
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I would agree with this if women were guaranteed pregnancy, which they’re not. There’s still too many nonhuman factors to say that birth = murder. Also as a baby your body is part of your mother’s until they developmentally differentiate (mannnnnny months outside the womb, AND there’s multiple stages of individuation that last years).
I would also agree with you except that there are also people who have been born who truly love life including their birth and death processes.
So I’d say as always a big responsibility lies on parents to at least improve conditions while they are here AND those opting out of children to end their own and other’s suffering at HUMAN hands.
Other factors in nature we truly don’t control and to attempt to do so is actually a root of suffering interestingly enough. Death doesn’t = murder out here in the circle of life. In a toxic society, sure thing.
And in less than 100 years we will all be dead. So what?life isn’t all suffering - unless you are listening to Joe Biden stutter. Then it sucks to be you..
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You really have to throw out the idea of good and bad to see the big picture. What if this really all there is and you spent the entire time you had with your life being afraid of the only thing that there is?
Yes, we are all born to chaotic and wild circumstances over which we have no control. We do very bad things, but if you really sit and think about it however rare they may be I'm certain youve seen good in the world. It is there. Bad things happen as well. People who are bad are very good at deceiving good people but both kinds do exist.
For the most part people are people and do good and bad things. What alternative can you imagine that you would prefer? You won't get a perfect utopia. Life isn't about being good and happy. I think that's ridiculous.
You will have to endure suffering and hardships but pain is extremely transformative. There very well may be a light at the end of a tunnel but if everyone gave up we may never find it.
We conquered Earth. Isn't that alone a good enough reason to continue? Whether we deserve it or not is irrelevant, what matters is that we can. All life forms are inherently evil.
It shows our strength. Humans may not be the strongest physically, but we make up for it with our minds and spirit. Sure, humans have done horrific things, even against other humans, but so has every other life form. Everything humans do to animals and each other, animals do in the wild.
But like I said, it doesn't matter how "good" we are, all life forms are evil and we are no different. Why not just accept it and work on progressing our species?
I don't think humans can progress from that. I see it as inevitable. Some of the worst things humans did happened in recent history, despite all the progress we have done.
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This is ridiculous brain wankery. Life was and made babies for millions of years (on this planet at least) in a reality that exists because who knows why. Then this little ape species evolves a frontal cortex and can create concepts and the concept of consent in its very narrow cultural bubble then suddenly renders all of life invalid? Ridiculous.
Without birth you couldn’t even be here to make that statement
This isn't deep.
Just dumb.
You cannot consent or refuse to consent to being brought into existence due to the fact you do not yet exist.
Also, as a society we widely recognise children are incapable of making informed consent due to their lack of capacity.
The only reason violating consent is wrong is because you’ve chosen to live and violating your consent interferes with your choice to live. If you’ve chosen to die, then you can just wait. No one can stop you from dying eventually. Murder is wrong because you’re being killed when you choose to live. Condemning someone to death against their will is wrong because it’s against their will to live.
But you have to be alive to choose to live, so no creating someone with the opportunity to choose to live isn’t violating their choice to live.
Assuming you bring a child into full terms, it will exist, and grow up, and experience the conditions in which you brought them into.
If by "murder it", you mean abortion, then it's completely different. They won't get a chance for realization because they wouldn't have developed a brain to.
Yet. As soon as you decide *you will* have them, that changes. You will force them into existence for your own desires. Not sure how much more simplified I can make that.
It's seems like your agreeing but also pushing back. You can't have it both ways. Either I'm violating someone's consent or Im not.
>You will force them into existence for your own desires.
I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. There isn't a single person (that exists) that I'm forcing something onto.
Why are you pretending like there 'are' people who are waiting in the void to be moved into existence?
To put the argument simply no one is harmed by coming into existence because 'being harmed' only happens to things that exist.
>If you can't receive consent then refrain from the act of procreation by erring on the side of caution
Only antinatalists hold this principle. Normal people just think that it's wrong to violate the implied or explicit consent of someone. No one thinks throwing someone a birthday party is wrong because there's an absence of consent.
So answer my question.
>Surely, not birthing a child is better off than the alternative.
Who is better off? No one right? Because they don't exist yet. So antinatalists save exactly 0 people.
>At any rate, being born is a tragedy. The good moments in life does not compensate the ills of life.
Well that's a subjective value judgement and the vast majority of people disagree with you. Ergo this isn't an argument for anything.
The fact that there are ills in life decides the matter as famously said by my homie schopenhauer 😊. I agree with my homie.
I strongly doubt you've read Schopenhauer, but if you have it might be worth finding a more respectable philosophical hero.
I love people who engage with philosophy on the level of quoting famous philosophers. It breeds such a rich understanding of the topics and deep appreciation of the filed. And it deffinetly doesn't make you arrogant and overconfident.
Here's my quote:
*If a man, holding a belief which he was taught in childhood or persuaded of afterwards, keeps down and pushes away any doubts which arise about it in his mind, purposely avoids the reading of books and the company of men that call into question or discuss it, and regards as impious those questions which cannot easily be asked without disturbing it — the life of that man is one long sin against mankind. […]
William Clifford, The Ethics of Belief*
Not everything in the universe requires consent.
The sun and planets dont consent to exist, the laws of physics just are, we don't give consent to breathing or for our heart pumping.
To frame life as murder because it condemns you to death is failure in logic.
People have children for many reasons, to say nobody should have children is an argument one makes when there life is misery, but life doesn't have to be misery. Life is what you make of it.
Sometimes its suffering, we can only live despite our circumstances.
Antinatalism doesn’t really argue with that? Just because the process is clearly biological doesn’t mean we can’t discuss it from ethics point of views. Sex is just reproduction and yet most people don’t treat it same way. Cannibalism exists among many species including apes and yet in human society it is one of the most disgusting thing you could ever do.
My point is that not all humans care about their biological purpose and that our biological purpose isn't, and should not, be our own purpose for surviving and experiencing life to its fullest. You quite literally just admitted that sex and reproduction boils down to biological urges and nothing more, and therefore, reproduction has no purpose other than satisfying our monkey brains, and is inherently unethical and illogical.
Yeah obviously that’s what it’s for and why people are engrained to do it- I’m pretty sure that’s obvious and clear for most people. I don’t know why that inherently makes it unethical. That I don’t agree on. Just because something is a natural urge or function doesn’t mean it’s unethical in nature, that’s completely subjective.
I don't think people should be procreating just because they can't resist their own biological urges. They should be procreating because they actually care about the life they're bringing into the world and the risk that comes with that. I would argue that bringing a life into this world not knowing what atrocities it will suffer is unethical.
We are not the only species that does sexual acts for pleasure. The intimacy it brings is very much a part of it, the biproduct sometimes being life.
With the same line of reasoning you could make the exact opposite argument that its unethical to not fulfil your biological imperative because you are denying potential life to cease to exist or you are denying yourself happiness so on so forth. All perspectives are equally valid in this vaccum By assuming potential suffering you are always going to associate life as a negative. Life is much more than just potential suffering.
What if, instead of being one of those people who sits there being angry about being born into a world you don't like and complaining about it on Reddit, you become one of the people who takes action to change that world? Maybe that's why you're here.
That's the spirit lol. May I ask how old you are? I assume you blame the state of the world on "selfish boomers and Gen X," correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not trying to insult you in any way, I'm just trying to figure out who I'm talking to. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. I'm 61 years old, I live in New york, I have a master's degree in Fine Art but I spent a lot of time working in finance and I hated every minute of it. I understood that the money that I was making was going to people that were doing nothing good with it, and I was doing no good with the money that was going into my pocket either. And it ate at my soul for a very long time. I developed an addiction to alcohol and opiates due in large part to how I felt about what I was doing for a living. I have a post graduate degree in art and I was painting on the weekends but that was not satisfying to me in any way. I ended up getting clean and sober and making art and writing career and I also do a lot of charity work and try to make a difference on a small level, because we have to think globally but act locally to make change. I hope that makes some kind of sense. I just want you to know who you're talking to as well.
I do not however, resent, my parents in any way for having me "without my consent." I don't understand that mindset. I could go with the reincarnation aspect of it and say that I chose this life I'm just not remembering having made that choice because I was not in a body with a brain when I made the decision, but that doesn't really align with my spiritual beliefs.
Cheap semantic cop-out. You can of course not ask whether someone wants to be born. But you also cannot assume their answer is going to be "no".
To use the word "consent" is just to front load the question with a default "no". Which means you have made the decision, and you're just trying to phrase it as an honest question. When it is dishonest.
Then why do they struggle so hard to live for so long if it is not a gift? Life is pain, but it beats the unknown. For all we know death may not be the end and the afterlife might be unending torment. It could be paradise or it could be cold nothing. We don't know, so we strive to hold on to what we know.
You might as well be arguing that since we can't get an unborn person's opinion on the current tax code that nobody should be taxed.
Consent is not needed, nor is it possible, to obtain from entities that don't exist. Once they're born, by all means get their consent, but don't pretend that your outrage is based around an imaginary prenatal consent.
This is not true. Not everyone is born into shit lives and condemned to anything bad.
Just because your life is hard and not what you would want or expect, doesn't mean that you should give up on it. You have to find the things that make you happy and build your own happiness.
your sperm literally beat all the other sperm into the egg. That one egg created you and now this kind of nonsense of no consent. If you don’t get it, it means out of the millions of sperm released you best them all.
Sperm is only half of dna, the other half is the egg. A sperm is not sentient and we were never a sperm. If that sperm won the race to a different egg, you would never be born. There was no "you" before THAT egg got fertilized by THAT sperm.
“a sperm is not sentient and we were never a sperm.” You’re wrong All living things are sentient, but only lack awareness so they go by instinct. Until they have a conscious of “I am”, going by your logic then a baby is not a sentient being. As for “we were never a sperm” I apologize but that is the most basic and scientifically proven that we are a sperm. As for the rest of your statement I can’t make sense of it.
"I apologize but that is the most basic and scientifically proven that we are a sperm."
Sperm is not even the cell that grows into the baby. It fertilizes the egg and contributes half of the dna, then the body of sperm is destroyed. The egg is what grows into a baby after receiving another half of dna from sperm, that's why your mtdna comes from your mother not your father. So if anything it's scientifically more accurate to say we are an egg. Also the egg has no control over being fertilized or not
"that is the most basic and scientifically proven that we are a sperm" lol no, it's not. There's not a whole person inside the sperm that can be seen as you. The homunculus theory is proven wrong since the 19th century or so.
Sperm is only half of dna, and no it's not scientifically proven that we are sperm. If that's true (which is not) then we are egg as well technically more egg than sperm because all cell organelles and mtdna come from egg only. It's true that we started out as combination of a sperm AND an EGG, but that egg or that sperm alone is not "you". Sorry but that's the basic biology fact.
The egg isn’t sentient, but the sperm is you can look it up yourself, they are wiggling and moving around like tadpoles. But you are correct without both combine it wouldn’t have become “you” which is the point of this conversation. Here’s an analogy, you bought ingredients for a cake. Now it was ruined halfway, so here is the question, is it still a cake even though it was ruined? Look it’s all documented in health education from an early age. Just know that you’re here in this world whether it be good or bad. Don’t let down the other million of sperms who died be disappointed.
lol You don't even know about basic biology Plants don't move but they are alive and sentient. Just because sperm moves it doesn't mean it's alive and it's "you" but the egg is not. It's just its purpose to move to reach the female egg and fertilize it, it's literally a delivery system to deliver half of the male's DNA to the female egg. EVERY cell in a human's body is alive, an egg is a living cell as well. If sperm was a human being then masturbation would be considered murder.
This post has been locked. There is already an antinatalism subreddit. While exploring these ethical concerns is valid, directly calling for humanity's extinction is inhumane, antithetical to the spirit of this community, and will result in a ban. Thank you to the majority of thinkers who demonstrated care and thoughtfulness in the comments.
You're basically describing anti-natalism. Look it up.
Or Efilism, the desire for suffering to end for ALL life, not just human life. But OP is right, for religious people it is even worse, they bring a child into the world to be judged by a harsh god that will may end up torturing them forever in eternity. So yea, religious parents are the most evil of all.
been hanging out with the wrong religions.
Is there really a right one?
Buddhists tend to be pretty chill.
It's weird, I never think of Buddhism as a religion.
It's more of a lifestyle/spiritual path, but it does qualify as a religion imo due to the metaphysical beliefs involved.
It is a non-theistic religion.
Which is why I don't think of it as a religion lol most of the religions I come across involve a diety of some kind usually. When I come across one that doesn't, my brain hurts.
Pantheism, if you want to consider that a religion(it fits the definition) is a pretty good choice in my mind for a "right religion." Pantheism, for those unaware, is the belief that the universe itself is more or less "God." Omnisim, the belief that all religions are the "right one," is another good candidate.
So how would omniism work?
At least it's not blood atonement lol LDS religion right there.
Came here to say this
Then you came here to be wrong. Antinatalism argues that having children is unethical due to the amount they will suffer.
And it's argued by some of the most miserably depressed people I've ever seen. Even for reddit it's bad
yeah, came here to say just this. I deeply agree with this line of thinking, especially because a lot of us have no want or wish to be alive in the state of the world as it is today.
I occasionally try to browse through that subreddit Saddest group of motherfuckers I've ever seen. Genuinely hope most of them get therapy or a good hug from a close friend or something
They're literally not because that's not what antinatalism is. Antinatalism argues that having children is unethical due to the amount they will suffer.
Is being forced to die against your will not suffering?
1. It's literally not. Being forced to die isn't necessarily suffering. If someone kills you in your sleep, they've forced you to die, but you haven't suffered from it. 2. Does being forced to die in the sense of how OP means it beget more suffering than joy and other positive things? That depends on your life. 3. Antinatalism doesn't state that because ANY suffering exists that procreation is immoral, but that the amount of suffering an average life contains is so great that it is immoral. Any of these three interpretations rebutt your question.
You mean to life against your will? Not necessarily wrong. Though consent can only be given in life. And in fact, I hope this doesn't sound suicidal, but we do in fact can check out at any time we wish for the most part. That then, is at least consent still. Regardless, I do think you have a point. But what I said above isn't that one I wanted to talk about. I think consent is an illusion. I mean we experience so many things in our lives beyond our control. You don't choose your parents. You don't choose your childhood experiences. You don't choose the struggles, or even your joys in life. What is consent? Who are you?
We can’t check out any time we wish when we have some inexplicable being shoving us back into our body every single time we try. Do you know how annoying that is? It’s genuinely rage inducing and you have no idea how difficult it is to actually kill yourself when it keeps happening.
Yeah i tried to h**g myself and my body simply would not let me. Still suicidal. Now i’m just pissed off.
And the things you said we can't control, basically starts with one thing you can control and that birth
You mean that we control, but not the person who was being born? That's our consent in his argument though, not the one being born.
The first true philosophical question is whether or not to immediately self-terminate. All other questions are secondary at best in nature.
When we talk about things like this, my opinion is that the naive argument of consent has gone too far. Life is full of stuff that happens to you without your consent. Deal with it. Much of the consent argument gone too far is people trying to grab hold of what little power over their lives that they can.
I agree. What bothers me is THIS particular argument. I get the spirit of it, but it is fucking impossible to give any kind of consent before or during birth. Or even after. Babies can't talk and don't understand the concept of consent. So case closed, right? Why is this still a thing?
Welcome to the reality of the biological imperative. Each one of your cells has the directive of trying to survive until it has run past its course. Your organism is also equipped by design to take those very distinctive set of directives (DNA), and pass them forward to a new living organism (your offspring). If following the biological imperative is wrong, then the Universe is wrong. Who are you to dare questioning the Universe?
Me. I'll question it. Not everyone wants to reproduce. I have ZERO desire to have children. If that biological and universal need to have offspring is there, then I'm fucking ignoring the call. I'm not going to ruin my life (and the child's) by having kids I don't want and I'd make their lives miserable because other people think everyone NEEDS to have children to fully live life. For what it's worth, I get what you're saying, and I think there's a biological component to all of it like you're saying. But not every person is going to, or will want to, have children.
If you don’t want kids, then don’t have kids .🤣 that doesn’t make it inhumane for others to have kids. Diversity is important , and you deciding not to procreate is a your choice. Everyone is wired differently and you have your life experiences that have helped shape the way you view the world which is why you’re making the case that having kids is inhumane in the first place
I agree that some people should not have kids. Children deserve well rounded parents. But you still comply with the biological imperative when you feed yourself or when you get sleep. \* Bro goes on a fast and stops sleeping \*
Exactly lol
Why can't the Universe be wrong then?
From the purely materialistic perspective, there is no right or wrong for the Universe. It’s just the entropy of the sun slowly releasing energy through hydrogen fusion, and fauna and flora capitalising on it for as long as they can. It’s like asking if it is “fair” that water flows downstream.
So any questioning of the Universe is pointless.
We have to step down from materialism and get into existentialism to debate the problem of evil. If life could be described as an opportunity to create meaningful connections, some people would be described as missing opportunities to establish connections, or as having to endure meaningless or harmful connections. OP concluded that suffering makes living unjustifiable. I am not minimising or belittling the suffering that they might have experienced, but there are people who get more good things out of life than bad ones. To them, suffering isn’t enough to make life unjustifiable.
"I got this letter from home recently because I haven't been taking real good care of my money. It said, 'Sam, you're out of control, you don't know what you're doing, we've given you enough money...and we think it's time you were on your own.' So I called my parents, said, 'Hey, Mom, why don't you bring Dad in the room, I'd like him to hear this too. You know, before I was born, I was a shining light in the cosmos. There was no weakness, only strength. There were no questions, only answers. But you two had to FUCK AND BRING ME DOWN HERE! YOU DIDN'T BRING ME INTO THIS WORLD SO I COULD WORK AT A FUCKING WINCHELL'S!! FUCK YOU, MOM! PICK UP THE FUCKING CHECK! PICK IT UP!!" - Sam Kinison
I agree but honestly the only problem is that we don't have euthanasia on request available. We should be able to quit reliably at any time but the option is not available.
If you really wanted to kill yourself, you could do it before anyone ever had a chance to stop you quite easily.
None of the easily available ways aren’t scary. We need a way that avoids the natural fear instinct so that doesn’t cause even more suffering. The whole point is to get rid of suffering.
I agree. This is why I'm never having children, at least my own. I'm open for adoption though.
I think we should all agree and end thw human race
I don't think enough of the human race has been ever been actively suicidal for that to be a possible outcome.
I meant that if we all stop having children the human race will end because no one will be born, you can still die of natural causes, I thought that was clear
I should rephrase. I don't think enough of the human race would ever decide it wasn't worth having children to have that effect. You'd have to get concensus from billions and billions of people, and that just isn't happening willingly. Unwillingly of course is a different story.
That last sentence made me laugh. I am just joking around, I actually have three kids 😅
Correct. Being alive is a guarantee of suffering. Humans, in particular, are known to suffer even when things are going well in the present because they dwell on past suffering and speculate about future suffering. It is cruel and unethical to bring more humans into existence knowing these facts.
Being born is being forced to live. But I don’t think that a child would rather choose death, I think the desire to die happens as soon as life gets complicated, or when something horrible happens. A child and its happiness is just how everyone would feel if we wouldn’t have normal day problems (ykwim? Sorry English is not my first language)
This is true, but life is literally suffering, and there is no avoiding it
This is how to use logic to reason yourself into nonsense.
You sound like a dad
Ok?
Depends on your philosophy. Many spiritual people believe our souls choose to reincarnate into this specific life. As Earth is just a kind of school. I believe this myself aswel. I believe I did consent to being born and choose this life specifically. (Note that I had a lot of trauma and abuse in my life, so I certainly didn’t have it easy. Still I firmly believe I choose this suffering myself as a way to grow. And grow I did.)
This is also my belief system. Our higher self consents to the reincarnation we accept.
This sounds more like faith-based spiritualism than philosophy It certainly exists in religions today
“Spiritual Philosophy” or just spirituality I guess. But I would argue it is not “faith based.” It can be for some but also for millions throughout history it has been a literal experience as clear as drinking water or breathing air. I used to be an Atheist my whole life until I had a profound spiritual experience or “Awakening” a few years ago. For me it is not an “belief” or “faith.” It is an undeniable fact to me and an experience more real then day to day reality itself. For me it happened during an psychedelic experience on a large dose of psilocybin mushrooms. We call it “Ego Death” or a spiritual “awakening” and can be triggered through various ways. These states of consciousness and philosophical conclusions have been reached by millions of diverse people in diverse ways throughout history. Either through kundalini yoga, intense breathing exercises, extensive meditation, high-heroic doses of psychedelics or other spiritual practices. But it can also be achieved by prolonged sensory deprivation, near death experiences or sudden severe trauma. These ideas and experiences repeat themselves in all kind of cultures throughout history around the globe. Often without any awareness of each other. And this experience has been the Origins of all spirituality and eventually mythology and religions. “Ego Death” is this extreme realisation and sensation of oneness and connection to literally everything in the universe. That most can only describe as you becoming aware that you are just a “human incarnation” of the collective consciousness of the universe. That there exists no individuality, that your consciousness is as old as the universe itself. And that you hold a connection with your consciousness to literally all energy and vibration in the universe. See your brain as an antenna and the collective consciousness as a universal "internet." You are just tuned in to a specific frequency now. But your consciousness has access to it all somewhere. Nowadays this theory is even getting more popular with scientists, academics and philosophers and there have been multiple scientific articles published the last few years with them speculating the Universe is conscious. People like Einstein and Tesla also made this argument. People like Alan Watts, Ram Dass and other Spiritual philosophers also talked in length about these phenomenon. Now, what that exactly entails is still just our personal human interpretation and guesswork. But this pattern repeats itself in so much of history and the known world. It shows itself in religions and mythologies, Architecture and Language. But also in physics, mathematics, geometry, biology and many other disciplines. The belief that we return to this collective consciousness after our physical existence concludes reinforces the idea that our journey is not confined to individual, isolated experiences but is part of a broader cosmic narrative. Religion and the idea that “God” is a separate entity that exists outside of your self, in this view: is perceived as just a human attempt to understand and interpret spiritual and psychedelic experiences. Creating doctrines and beliefs that may not necessarily reflect an objective truth. It emphasizes the subjective nature of religious interpretations, encouraging a more open-minded exploration of spirituality that doesn’t depend on rigid dogmas.
I believe this too and I’ve been through a lot of difficult and challenging experiences in my life that have definitely made me grow as a person. I’ve watched a lot of NDE videos and it resonated with me how so many of them talk about learning that we live multiple lives and that we choose which lives we have.
NDE’s, long sensory deprivation, kundalini yoga, intense meditation, psychedelic experiences etc. They all seem to tell us this exact same thing. It can’t be a coincidence in my opinion.
Indeed!
Agreed, the problem with the "I don't remember consenting to be here" crowd is exactly that. They don't *remember* but they infact did consent. If you have an entirely materialist and anti-spiritual perspective like many who frequent this app do you're going to be left upset.
May be left upset*
What makes you believe that? That’s a pretty radical belief to hold without compelling evidence.
There no compelling evidence for any faith - Life is meaningless, morality is a lie - As such, concerning yourself with consent for birth is irrelevant.
Evidence might be the wrong word. I’m curious about the reasoning behind the belief.
the spiritual explanation. In the the context of the belief that “we are the universe experiencing ourselves,” spirituality revolves around the idea that our individual existence is intricately connected to the vast cosmos. It suggests that, at a fundamental level, we are not isolated beings but integral components of a collective consciousness often referred to as “god” or the universe. Another way many describe it; is its the realisation that: We are “God” or the universe it’s consciousness; putting on a “Human suit” and experiencing itself from our eyes. That the universe made this life to experience itself in full. And diverse forms of consciousness and life might be happening all over the universe. We do not “come from Earth” but instead we “come OUT of the Earth.” And are connected to this planet and the cosmos as a whole as much as every animal, plant, fungi and even the elements like fire, water, air and earth. Spirituality, in this sense, encourages an exploration of the profound interconnection between ourselves and the greater cosmos and the various "dimensions" it brings. It invites individuals to recognize that their experiences, consciousness, and essence are part of a larger, universal tapestry. This perspective emphasizes a sense of unity, transcending the notion of separation between individuals and the universe. As we navigate our lives, spiritual practices and reflections may involve seeking a deeper understanding of this interconnectedness, exploring the mysteries of existence, and recognizing the divine within ourselves. This is what is referred to as trying to achieve “awakening” or “enlightenment.” We in the psychedelic community know it as “Ego Death.” (Note there is Ego dissolution and there is Full Ego Death.) “Ego Death” is this extreme realisation and sensation of oneness and connection to literally everything in the universe. That most can only describe as you becoming aware that you are just a “human incarnation” of the collective consciousness of the universe. That there exists no individuality, that your consciousness is as old as the universe itself. And that you hold a connection with your consciousness to literally all energy and vibration in the universe. See your brain as an antenna and the collective consciousness as a universal "internet." You are just tuned in to a specific frequency now. But your consciousness has access to it all somewhere. A increasingly popular theory is that Psychedelics may open up the possibility to "tune in" to a bit more of the collective and peer through the physical “veil” into the other “dimensions” in the universe. A successful connection with that collective consciousness, that universal “internet;” That is what "Ego Death,” “Awakening,” “Enlightenment” is. Similar like connecting a computer to the internet with WiFi. Through the way of psychedelics, this is a temporary state, while you will retain a lot of the knowledge given during these states, the feeling will be fleeting. And eventually “ego” will have stabilised and your consciousness back to be fully focused on this physical dimension. With the increasing popularity and access of psychedelics more and more people are starting to have these experiences. And less and less people are instantly dismissing this mystical psychedelic experience as pure hallucination and drug induced delusions. These states of consciousness and philosophical conclusions have been reached by millions of diverse people in diverse ways throughout history. Either through kundalini yoga, intense breathing exercises, extensive meditation, high-heroic doses of psychedelics or other spiritual practices. But it can also be achieved by prolonged sensory deprivation, near death experiences or sudden severe trauma. These ideas and experiences repeat themselves in all kind of cultures throughout history around the globe. Often without any awareness of each other. Nowadays this theory is even getting more popular with scientists, academics and philosophers and there have been multiple scientific articles published the last few years with them speculating the Universe is conscious. People like Einstein and Tesla also made this argument. People like Alan Watts, Ram Dass and other Spiritual philosophers also talked in length about these phenomenon. Now, what that exactly entails is still just our personal human interpretation and guesswork. But this pattern repeats itself in so much of history and the known world. It shows itself in religions and mythologies, Architecture and Language. But also in physics, mathematics, geometry, biology and many other disciplines. The belief that we return to this collective consciousness after our physical existence concludes reinforces the idea that our journey is not confined to individual, isolated experiences but is part of a broader cosmic narrative. Religion and the idea that “God” is a separate entity that exists outside of your self, in this view: is perceived as just a human attempt to understand and interpret spiritual and psychedelic experiences. Creating doctrines and beliefs that may not necessarily reflect an objective truth. It emphasizes the subjective nature of religious interpretations, encouraging a more open-minded exploration of spirituality that doesn’t depend on rigid dogmas.
You mean like all religious and spiritual claims?
Nope
Agreed r/antinatalism
You're right. Join us on r/antinatalism.
That implies that whatever you believe makes up *you* (soul, brain, whatever) exists before you were conceived. For you to have been wronged, you must exist before the wrong happened, not as a product of it. It’s an interesting secular parallel to “original sin” But the argument doesn’t make sense. If you don’t want to exist, you don’t have to- undoing your existence is really easy- so easy that you have to actively work to exist in order to exist. If anti-natalism people actually believed that they would prefer to not exist, they wouldn’t.
Nope because I was already born and I don’t have a choice about that now I’m alive and I’m stuck with biological instincts and experiences
The end of the human species
The end of this species draws near with every hour
You're not logically wrong, but also, you are *very* wrong.
Complete nonsense. Of course you can't consent. You can't consent to something when you don't exist, don't have language, and don't have thoughts. Therefore you have to be born and specifically become human before you can even have the intelligence and language required to express such a stupid thought as "birth is literally the same as murder". Consider yourself fortunate to be among the extremely limited number of entities in the universe capable of speaking such nonsense and do something with your godlike powers instead of whining on the Internet.
When I have kids, I'm going to be like "Ight kid, some jerks brought me into this world without my permission, now I'm bringing you into this world. Welcome to life, jerk"
Yes, that is exactly what you are going to do.
I agree. I have been for antinatalism for a long time. Having children is immoral.
Yes. I exist without my consent and I am sad.
You can’t bring yourself back to life if you don’t like where getting murdered gets you. You can undo being made alive. It’s not an optimistic way of looking at things, but it is a meaningful difference between conceiving and killing.
None of that takes away from the non consensual aspect of being forced into existence. If someone kidnaps you, but you're able to escape, did that make the kidnapping any less non consensual?
I found a quick way to jump planets. If all humans die on this one and theres some (procreating humans) on another planet in another time and if reincarnation (to human bodies only) is real and if time doesn't actually exist, we just all die here and born somewhere else. GENIUS!
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Until many years after birth, informed consent isn't a possibility. That logically entails your assertion is moot. Would you also assert that infants ought not be given medical care because they, also, cannot give informed consent?
I'd say in that case people shouldn't create infants to begin with.
That's a whole other discussion, not being made by the OP.
The concept of consent, or even of preference, exists only for beings that already exist. The statement that "I didn't consent to being born" implies as if you existed in some shape or form before you were conceived.
No we don’t but the fact is we ARE all here and no matter our hardships, we can make the best of it or give up, or be angry, or just stagnate in place. Those are all choices we can make. I choose to make the best of every day I’m still here. I may not be able to touch or taste or hear or smell or see wherever I go from here so I’m going to love all of it now.
Problem solved
Consent is a necessary concept in the world of humans to discuss morality, not physical/biological properties like being alive. We all didn't consent to gravity either and here we are, not floating in space. Anyway, life leads to death and death leads to fear. So I get it, we suffer. But this chaos led to the formation of the Beach Boys so it can't all be that bad.
No one gets that choice for themselves , never have , never will
I don’t consent to die. Checkmate, Death.
>Birth is literally the same thing as murder But it *literally* isn't.
Birth requiring consent of the birthed is unnatural, and thus easily rejected.
This is Paul's hot take in his "first" letter to the Corinthians.
Lol what?
contrary to modern popular belief, consent is not the be-all, end-all that current loudmouths think it is.
This assumes a blanket rule around consent, which is not used in any aspect of society. Yesterday my wife bought an extra snack and gave it to me, I didn't consent to it, but I appreciated it. She knew me well enough to know that I would consent. If you apply this same nuance to parenting, you get a much more elegant statement. Something like. Parents who cannot give children a decent life, (a life that a person WOULD consent to) should not be parents. Yet even then you have many children born into terrible childhoods who would still choose to be born. Who are you to take away someone's desire (a form of consent) to be born, even if it's after the fact? Point being. This topic isn't as black and white as reddit seems to present it every month or so.
You do consent to being born. You’re just not really a human lmao. You’re God/Nature forgetting itself, so of course we wouldn’t know that. No, I’m not joking😅 I heavily disagree with you, so good deep thought.
When I decide not to have children, I am God remembering itself
You must be straight blind to the joys in life. I haven't had an easy life, I don't think many people have but I can still find the joys in life be them little or large. Things as simple as that first stretch in the morning after you wake up, hearing a child's laughter while they're playing, seeing the sun set or rise, driving a care really fast, finding a problem and fixing it etc. There's so many things in life that are easily worth the troubles and even worth risking the pain of dying.
Should we stop breeding animals too? No one should own dogs anymore... puppies didn't consent to being born.
animals are not sentient and therefore they cannot consent one way or another so it’s OK to do whatever you want with them, but human beings is a different matter.
I agree
Most people don't consent to dying either but life moves forward regardless of our wants and needs. Birth is just a fact of life. You can make a personal choice to not have children for that reason, but as animals, human beings have the same drive to reproduce that all life does. Its natural to reproduce and nature doesnt care about consent. Those who have kids, we dont always consent to what gender they are born, sexual identity, appearence, health, etc. all of that happens without our consent from natural processes. In the modern world where human beings have evolved to have more control over our base impulses and developed empathy, so we try our best to build a society that has laws that protect others. Consent is important in sexual encounters and in things where there is potential harm or consequences when two parties engage in an act, but letting the entire human race die cause babies dont consent to be born? Doesnt really make sense and I dont think the word consent really applies in this situation
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I would agree with this if women were guaranteed pregnancy, which they’re not. There’s still too many nonhuman factors to say that birth = murder. Also as a baby your body is part of your mother’s until they developmentally differentiate (mannnnnny months outside the womb, AND there’s multiple stages of individuation that last years). I would also agree with you except that there are also people who have been born who truly love life including their birth and death processes. So I’d say as always a big responsibility lies on parents to at least improve conditions while they are here AND those opting out of children to end their own and other’s suffering at HUMAN hands. Other factors in nature we truly don’t control and to attempt to do so is actually a root of suffering interestingly enough. Death doesn’t = murder out here in the circle of life. In a toxic society, sure thing.
Your argument assumes that consent may be given, therefore it cannot be denied either.
Strawman- what matters is if it’s given. And it cannot be given.
lol you think we have a choice, silly human
I have a choice to never have children, and that is what I am going to do because I am more moral than anybody who has children.
You must be a man?
My wife also isn’t having children
Good job buddy! You did it! Now tell the world!
Cope and seethe. It’s hilarious how intimidated you are in the presence of somebody with superior morality.
And in less than 100 years we will all be dead. So what?life isn’t all suffering - unless you are listening to Joe Biden stutter. Then it sucks to be you..
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Biden? Suffering? Nope- he is far beyond that. If he was sitting in a rocking chair in one of his many homes and not the president I wouldn’t care.
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No. Survival of human species is too important to be left to any single individual and their stupid ideas.
Why? Why should humans have to survive? What good have we done?
We don't have to do good to survive.
You really have to throw out the idea of good and bad to see the big picture. What if this really all there is and you spent the entire time you had with your life being afraid of the only thing that there is? Yes, we are all born to chaotic and wild circumstances over which we have no control. We do very bad things, but if you really sit and think about it however rare they may be I'm certain youve seen good in the world. It is there. Bad things happen as well. People who are bad are very good at deceiving good people but both kinds do exist. For the most part people are people and do good and bad things. What alternative can you imagine that you would prefer? You won't get a perfect utopia. Life isn't about being good and happy. I think that's ridiculous. You will have to endure suffering and hardships but pain is extremely transformative. There very well may be a light at the end of a tunnel but if everyone gave up we may never find it.
We conquered Earth. Isn't that alone a good enough reason to continue? Whether we deserve it or not is irrelevant, what matters is that we can. All life forms are inherently evil.
I don't see what is good about conquering earth.
It shows our strength. Humans may not be the strongest physically, but we make up for it with our minds and spirit. Sure, humans have done horrific things, even against other humans, but so has every other life form. Everything humans do to animals and each other, animals do in the wild. But like I said, it doesn't matter how "good" we are, all life forms are evil and we are no different. Why not just accept it and work on progressing our species?
I don't think humans can progress from that. I see it as inevitable. Some of the worst things humans did happened in recent history, despite all the progress we have done.
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This is ridiculous brain wankery. Life was and made babies for millions of years (on this planet at least) in a reality that exists because who knows why. Then this little ape species evolves a frontal cortex and can create concepts and the concept of consent in its very narrow cultural bubble then suddenly renders all of life invalid? Ridiculous. Without birth you couldn’t even be here to make that statement
You’d enjoy the anti-natalism sub! Join us!
This isn't deep. Just dumb. You cannot consent or refuse to consent to being brought into existence due to the fact you do not yet exist. Also, as a society we widely recognise children are incapable of making informed consent due to their lack of capacity.
The only reason violating consent is wrong is because you’ve chosen to live and violating your consent interferes with your choice to live. If you’ve chosen to die, then you can just wait. No one can stop you from dying eventually. Murder is wrong because you’re being killed when you choose to live. Condemning someone to death against their will is wrong because it’s against their will to live. But you have to be alive to choose to live, so no creating someone with the opportunity to choose to live isn’t violating their choice to live.
That's deep if you're 14
How can you violate the consent of something that doesn't exist? Or murder it?
Assuming you bring a child into full terms, it will exist, and grow up, and experience the conditions in which you brought them into. If by "murder it", you mean abortion, then it's completely different. They won't get a chance for realization because they wouldn't have developed a brain to.
I'm not exactly sure how you've answered my question. Who's consent is being violated in the case of procreation?
The child that will see its existence into full terms because you decided to raw dog.
Right, but they don't exist yet. So I not violating anyones consent right? Or we can say: There is no one who's consent is being violated.
Yet. As soon as you decide *you will* have them, that changes. You will force them into existence for your own desires. Not sure how much more simplified I can make that.
It's seems like your agreeing but also pushing back. You can't have it both ways. Either I'm violating someone's consent or Im not. >You will force them into existence for your own desires. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. There isn't a single person (that exists) that I'm forcing something onto. Why are you pretending like there 'are' people who are waiting in the void to be moved into existence? To put the argument simply no one is harmed by coming into existence because 'being harmed' only happens to things that exist.
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>If you can't receive consent then refrain from the act of procreation by erring on the side of caution Only antinatalists hold this principle. Normal people just think that it's wrong to violate the implied or explicit consent of someone. No one thinks throwing someone a birthday party is wrong because there's an absence of consent. So answer my question. >Surely, not birthing a child is better off than the alternative. Who is better off? No one right? Because they don't exist yet. So antinatalists save exactly 0 people. >At any rate, being born is a tragedy. The good moments in life does not compensate the ills of life. Well that's a subjective value judgement and the vast majority of people disagree with you. Ergo this isn't an argument for anything. The fact that there are ills in life decides the matter as famously said by my homie schopenhauer 😊. I agree with my homie. I strongly doubt you've read Schopenhauer, but if you have it might be worth finding a more respectable philosophical hero.
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Yeah that's about as much epistemic humility as one can expect from an antinatalist. See ya.
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I love people who engage with philosophy on the level of quoting famous philosophers. It breeds such a rich understanding of the topics and deep appreciation of the filed. And it deffinetly doesn't make you arrogant and overconfident. Here's my quote: *If a man, holding a belief which he was taught in childhood or persuaded of afterwards, keeps down and pushes away any doubts which arise about it in his mind, purposely avoids the reading of books and the company of men that call into question or discuss it, and regards as impious those questions which cannot easily be asked without disturbing it — the life of that man is one long sin against mankind. […] William Clifford, The Ethics of Belief*
Not everything in the universe requires consent. The sun and planets dont consent to exist, the laws of physics just are, we don't give consent to breathing or for our heart pumping. To frame life as murder because it condemns you to death is failure in logic. People have children for many reasons, to say nobody should have children is an argument one makes when there life is misery, but life doesn't have to be misery. Life is what you make of it. Sometimes its suffering, we can only live despite our circumstances.
My life isn't misery and I still think reproduction is morally and ethically wrong.
Biologically doesn’t really care what your morals are, it works how it works because organisms main goal is to reproduce and survive
Antinatalism doesn’t really argue with that? Just because the process is clearly biological doesn’t mean we can’t discuss it from ethics point of views. Sex is just reproduction and yet most people don’t treat it same way. Cannibalism exists among many species including apes and yet in human society it is one of the most disgusting thing you could ever do.
Guess I'm not an organism then.
Sick burn bro
My point is that not all humans care about their biological purpose and that our biological purpose isn't, and should not, be our own purpose for surviving and experiencing life to its fullest. You quite literally just admitted that sex and reproduction boils down to biological urges and nothing more, and therefore, reproduction has no purpose other than satisfying our monkey brains, and is inherently unethical and illogical.
Yeah obviously that’s what it’s for and why people are engrained to do it- I’m pretty sure that’s obvious and clear for most people. I don’t know why that inherently makes it unethical. That I don’t agree on. Just because something is a natural urge or function doesn’t mean it’s unethical in nature, that’s completely subjective.
I don't think people should be procreating just because they can't resist their own biological urges. They should be procreating because they actually care about the life they're bringing into the world and the risk that comes with that. I would argue that bringing a life into this world not knowing what atrocities it will suffer is unethical.
Being intentional about reproduction and claiming all reproduction is unethical are two different arguments
We are not the only species that does sexual acts for pleasure. The intimacy it brings is very much a part of it, the biproduct sometimes being life. With the same line of reasoning you could make the exact opposite argument that its unethical to not fulfil your biological imperative because you are denying potential life to cease to exist or you are denying yourself happiness so on so forth. All perspectives are equally valid in this vaccum By assuming potential suffering you are always going to associate life as a negative. Life is much more than just potential suffering.
What if, instead of being one of those people who sits there being angry about being born into a world you don't like and complaining about it on Reddit, you become one of the people who takes action to change that world? Maybe that's why you're here.
the world is beyond fucked to be fixed
That's the spirit lol. May I ask how old you are? I assume you blame the state of the world on "selfish boomers and Gen X," correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not trying to insult you in any way, I'm just trying to figure out who I'm talking to. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. I'm 61 years old, I live in New york, I have a master's degree in Fine Art but I spent a lot of time working in finance and I hated every minute of it. I understood that the money that I was making was going to people that were doing nothing good with it, and I was doing no good with the money that was going into my pocket either. And it ate at my soul for a very long time. I developed an addiction to alcohol and opiates due in large part to how I felt about what I was doing for a living. I have a post graduate degree in art and I was painting on the weekends but that was not satisfying to me in any way. I ended up getting clean and sober and making art and writing career and I also do a lot of charity work and try to make a difference on a small level, because we have to think globally but act locally to make change. I hope that makes some kind of sense. I just want you to know who you're talking to as well. I do not however, resent, my parents in any way for having me "without my consent." I don't understand that mindset. I could go with the reincarnation aspect of it and say that I chose this life I'm just not remembering having made that choice because I was not in a body with a brain when I made the decision, but that doesn't really align with my spiritual beliefs.
Dumb take is dumb. Thank you for contributing to deep thoughts.
If you pro choice. Many pro life
You need to get off those depressants
Cheap semantic cop-out. You can of course not ask whether someone wants to be born. But you also cannot assume their answer is going to be "no". To use the word "consent" is just to front load the question with a default "no". Which means you have made the decision, and you're just trying to phrase it as an honest question. When it is dishonest.
Life is a gift, if you cannot enjoy it please, try and learn to. If not, there is always an exit strategy.
Is life a gift even for the terminally ill or the people who suffer from chronic pain or the ones who suffer from debilitating mental illnesses?
Then why do they struggle so hard to live for so long if it is not a gift? Life is pain, but it beats the unknown. For all we know death may not be the end and the afterlife might be unending torment. It could be paradise or it could be cold nothing. We don't know, so we strive to hold on to what we know.
Edgy..!
he's right no matter how cringe you think his point is
It's not a deep thought, it's a dumb thought...
You might as well be arguing that since we can't get an unborn person's opinion on the current tax code that nobody should be taxed. Consent is not needed, nor is it possible, to obtain from entities that don't exist. Once they're born, by all means get their consent, but don't pretend that your outrage is based around an imaginary prenatal consent.
This is not true. Not everyone is born into shit lives and condemned to anything bad. Just because your life is hard and not what you would want or expect, doesn't mean that you should give up on it. You have to find the things that make you happy and build your own happiness.
Genius 🤪
your sperm literally beat all the other sperm into the egg. That one egg created you and now this kind of nonsense of no consent. If you don’t get it, it means out of the millions of sperm released you best them all.
Sperm is only half of dna, the other half is the egg. A sperm is not sentient and we were never a sperm. If that sperm won the race to a different egg, you would never be born. There was no "you" before THAT egg got fertilized by THAT sperm.
“a sperm is not sentient and we were never a sperm.” You’re wrong All living things are sentient, but only lack awareness so they go by instinct. Until they have a conscious of “I am”, going by your logic then a baby is not a sentient being. As for “we were never a sperm” I apologize but that is the most basic and scientifically proven that we are a sperm. As for the rest of your statement I can’t make sense of it.
"I apologize but that is the most basic and scientifically proven that we are a sperm." Sperm is not even the cell that grows into the baby. It fertilizes the egg and contributes half of the dna, then the body of sperm is destroyed. The egg is what grows into a baby after receiving another half of dna from sperm, that's why your mtdna comes from your mother not your father. So if anything it's scientifically more accurate to say we are an egg. Also the egg has no control over being fertilized or not
"that is the most basic and scientifically proven that we are a sperm" lol no, it's not. There's not a whole person inside the sperm that can be seen as you. The homunculus theory is proven wrong since the 19th century or so. Sperm is only half of dna, and no it's not scientifically proven that we are sperm. If that's true (which is not) then we are egg as well technically more egg than sperm because all cell organelles and mtdna come from egg only. It's true that we started out as combination of a sperm AND an EGG, but that egg or that sperm alone is not "you". Sorry but that's the basic biology fact.
The egg isn’t sentient, but the sperm is you can look it up yourself, they are wiggling and moving around like tadpoles. But you are correct without both combine it wouldn’t have become “you” which is the point of this conversation. Here’s an analogy, you bought ingredients for a cake. Now it was ruined halfway, so here is the question, is it still a cake even though it was ruined? Look it’s all documented in health education from an early age. Just know that you’re here in this world whether it be good or bad. Don’t let down the other million of sperms who died be disappointed.
lol You don't even know about basic biology Plants don't move but they are alive and sentient. Just because sperm moves it doesn't mean it's alive and it's "you" but the egg is not. It's just its purpose to move to reach the female egg and fertilize it, it's literally a delivery system to deliver half of the male's DNA to the female egg. EVERY cell in a human's body is alive, an egg is a living cell as well. If sperm was a human being then masturbation would be considered murder.