Despite the constant drumbeat of negativity from the press, come November, tens of millions of Americans will ‘vote blue no matter who’.
The people who opposed Trump in 2020 were reminded why during the debate.
Nobody who voted against Trump in 2020 will change their vote in 2024. And let’s be perfectly clear, Americans didn’t really vote for Biden as much as they voted against Trump.
The dynamics of 2020 are the exact same dynamics at play in 2024.
Keep in mind too that they know this. All the shit we hear about Maga nuts doing more and worse than Jan 6th is intimidation and bravado. The voter intimidation, the plans to disrupt polling locations, the voter suppression, it's all because the GOP has known for a while now that they can't win a fair election.
Don't get me wrong, if Biden wins, I'm pretty sure we will see a J6 v2, but the situation in the white house is different this time even though the voting dynamics haven't changed.
>Don't get me wrong, if Biden wins, I'm pretty sure we will see a J6 v2, but the situation in the white house is different this time even though the voting dynamics haven't changed.
Biden won't watch for 3 hours like Trump did. Those MAGA Cultist can try to re-do J6 but Biden and the administration are prepared this time around. They know what that cult did on J6. Only thing more worrying is MAGA Republican Speaker denying the votes and the MAGA Supreme Court giving Trump the Presidency. It blows my mind that con-man Trump and McConnell thought the long game thru. I'm sad for our country but will still vote for Biden and Blue down the line.
I'm more concerned (as far as violence goes) about more widespread diffuse attacks this time around. Some rubes might try DC, but I'd be surprised if the people calling the shots think they will get anywhere just trying to carbon copy J6.
I agree that McConnel and the supreme court are a bigger threat this time around.... that's the one that really makes me nervous...
I push pencils for a government contractor. After the insurrection, we built an off-site duplicate of the interior of the House of Representatives. It’s so perfect, even the CSPAN producers can’t tell when we switch the feed. House Reps were briefed and we had them out for training in the alt House during a break. In session, once a month the reps hold regular business there— and nobody outside would even know it’s happening. We have told the Reps that it’s a matter of national security, blah blah.
We knew they would leak it. Fuckin Ted Cruz will put his beer goggles on and start flirting with some muscular gay waiter at a BBQ joint somewhere and he will say anything for dick, so the following week everybody knows whatever he knows. Of course it leaked.
We did some leaking of real and fake info ourselves. We want the weirdos to think and behave a certain way. Like, we said we had sites 3 through 13 also built or being built, which is only partly true. And we also leaked that one site has been chosen for the next presidential vote count… and we leaked that it has a flaw that makes it the most vulnerable location (an exhaust vent lol). The extremists will show up to hurt Representatives, but it will be an ambush. lol
One point nobody seems to be making.
No matter what 99% of DEMs think, Biden winning, losing, or staying in the race is beyond our control.
The DEM deep pocket whales that provide the bulk of the monetary fuel for the Biden campaign will make their own decision as to whether or not they see a path forward for Biden. If the majority of the whales decide they do not see a path forward they will advise Biden of their decision. Recent polls I have seen show 60% - 70% of Americans think Biden should quit.
Biden was basically even in the polls pre-debate. It will cost a significant increase in cash donations to pay for PR for Reputation Rehab do-over mini campaign to reach out to those reachable independent candidates. Also, they will probably have to pay to reach the low energy / low info DEMS who are dumb enough to think about RFK Jr, who may benefit from these voters Biden lost during the debate.
I suspect the DEM big donors will fund some "focus group" studies of the reachable voters and compute some sort of cost analysis of converting these folks and the statistical likelihood of electing Biden.
If the big DEM Donors don't see a path forward and they advise Biden to get out. Biden can either take their advice and get out or seek to have his campaign funded by us little fish.
Conclusion: If the big fish decide to cut their losses and bail on Biden, the liklihood of DJT becoming the next President IMHO surges.
Other Point: If Biden stays in, IMHO THERE IS NO FRIGGING WAY HE SHOULD DEBATE IN SEPTEMBER.
I think Trump would say he would debate, whether he planned to or not.
That way if, when Biden backed out of debating him, Trump would call Biden a chicken shit.
I don't see Biden's remaining big donors standing behind him if Biden wanted to debate.
This. I was making excuses for Joe prior to the debate. I now believe firmly that he needs to step down and be replaced. But I’ll vote blue regardless. No chance I’m sitting out or voting for facism
That’s all fine and good. But the votes that matter are the ones in the swing states.
Don’t let yourself get comfortable. There still needs to be major GOTV efforts for blue voters in those swing states.
Even if you don’t live in a swing state, you can get involved remotely. Plenty of groups you can volunteer with.
This same nonsense happened in 2020. Not on this scale and not all at once, but there were plenty of people saying Biden should step aside and the DNC should pick someone else. Andrew Cuomo was a name shouted out several times. That would have gone well... Anyway, give it a week or two and I think this will mostly fade.
The most amazing thing to me is how many people are somehow (at least seemingly) able to ignore politics completely and/or lack any understanding of what’s at stake. Yeah, I don’t expect everyone to spend as much time as I do reading and watching political stuff, but come on! Not to mention I saw DJT for what he was when he first opened his mouth.
We’re so fat, dumb, and happy we think nothing can put this nation off the rails I guess.
And ‘they’ want to keep it this way. In addition to closing schools or dumbing them down to teaching the bible instead of real world knowledge needed to pull yourself up.
I hear this as a valid observation and I also vehemently oppose continuing to accept it as an excuse.
If people can watch 17 Tik Tok videos on their lunch break, they can take five minutes to read a news article or watch a quick segment on YouTube.
Americans are hard working people, but Americans also love a good excuse for remaining neck deep in the sand. We have to stop giving them those excuses.
According to a majority of posts on r/politics, the election is pretty much over and Trump is already president-elect. I can't stand the defeatism, there's nothing productive to be gained.
Yeah, I know the right will keep running clips of Biden from the debate. Have we forgotten that is a two-way street?
Trump gave plenty of sound bites also, including "black jobs" and "abortion after birth".
It will be interesting to see what happens in twelve days when Trump is sentenced.
Reminder that we're not just voting for the man, *but also for the people he surrounds himself with*. I don't want Bannon or Steven Miller and their ilk anywhere near the levers of power.
If there is a division, we had better get it together and whether or not you love it or are excited about it "vote blue no matter who". If not, I promise this will be the last election you ever get to vote in. Don't forget how things happened last time. It was not a peaceful transition of power, there have still been no consequences for that by the way. We were so close, it was a trial run.
FTFY: I hope no one ELSE is killed.
Not trying to be an ass, but it needs saying that Trump and his fascist games are literally killing people. Somewhere between 1-10 people died from Jan. 6 events, depending on how you count. Attacks on election workers are increasing. He is continuing to push very violent rhetoric. More people are going to die.
Democrats need to avoid that division at all costs right now. Biden is not the only person making decisions while in office. Now is the time for democrats to rally together because we have a terrifying threat looming over us that we need the power of numbers to defeat.
The campaign needs to put VP Harris out there every day. Send Obama, Jasmine Crockett, Wes Moore, Democratic Latino Representatives, women, young people, older adults, and all of the Republicans who don’t endorse Trump put them out there to make the case against Trump. This is war. Dems need to start fighting for their lives. Reach out to Independents and get people registered to vote. Talk about what Biden has done and all the damage Trump did. Talk about Project 2025, abortion rights, infrastructure, Bibles in schools, unemployment, book banning. We have so many points in our favor. Trump’s convictions and indictments should all be mentioned on a daily basis everywhere. Get Democrats in the South to vote. We must fight.
Exactly this. Right now is not the time to start fighting with each other or pointing out one another’s shortcomings. We’ll deal with that later. Let’s first get this over with so we can at least have the kind of society that allows for the sort of dialogue we’re going to need to have with sensitivity and sincerity. Not this lip service hogwash we’ve gotten from Trump people.
No. I think this blows over in a week, unless the next round of polls are a blood bath, which I don’t think they will be.
The NYT is really, really pushing hard for it, tho. Seriously, fuck them.
Fuck the New York Times! I cancelled my subscription three years ago when they kept publishing articles sympathetic the the travails of anti vaxers. Not during a global pandemic that's killing people, you assholes.
The New York Times is the epitome of elite centrist hand wringing.
The smart money knows this will never blow over. The "Biden is too old" swing voters now have their irrefutable proof and that can't ever be undone.
The Democrats stubbornness and ignorance of this glaring issue is going to be the final nail in the coffin.
Of course it was blowing over. The Sleepy Joe meme was all but dead and buried, or did you forget all the excuse making by the GOP pre debate accusing Biden of taking PEDs?
All it took was a major stumble by Biden to open the floodgates.
The speed with which NYT/centrist media pundit class launched its attack was stunning, my dude. *They didn’t even wait for the debate to finish.* I was witness to the real time meltdown on X/Twitter.
Biden is a successful incumbent president that has already beaten Trump once and has literally never lost a general election. It's not stubbornness to support him, it's thinking logically instead of emotionally.
And you all want to replace him with *someone* you can't even name 5 months before an election. All because he had laryngitis and one bad debate.
Fucking idiotic. I don't see how this country doesn't deserve Trump if we push for stupid shit like this.
I don't think any Democrats are threatening to not vote for the nominee, either because they're outraged that it's Biden or because they're outraged it's not Biden. By November, the argument over whether to replace Biden will be over, and Democrats will unite behind the nominee. We have to worry about the marginal Democratic voters (on the left and in the center) but not about loyal Democrats who disagree about who the nominee should be.
It might cause more people to rally around Joe like bad press caused Trump's base to rally around him. Too early to see and depends on unknown factors.
The debate doesn’t mean jack. No drumph or Dark Brandon supporters are going to change their minds. Fair-weather Dems might squawk about replacing Biden, but that isn’t happening for a multitude of reasons, and if the debate convinced them to vote for donnie 2-poops, that was a vote you couldn’t count on anyway. I mean, the tangerine turd lied 50 times in 90 minutes, and verbally blundered about not answering questions in a truly bizarre fashion.
In the end, it isn’t about either man, inflation, climate change, Israel, Gaza, or the boarder. It is about Democracy vs. theocratic nazis. Period.
We can work on all the other things after the landslide.
There can be nuance here. You can both recognize that we need fresh leadership in the White House and a more attractive Dem candidate…AND that right now, Trump running again puts me and a lot of my friends in danger as LGBTQ+ individuals.
I don’t have the luxury of voting third party or not voting at all, despite understanding the sentiment. I *have* to vote for the party that will do the least amount of damage.
Notice how this time during the debate Trump didn’t mention our community *once*? Even if it was all bullshit I do remember him in ‘16 & ‘20 at least acknowledging gay people & pretending he was interested in our votes. Haven’t heard a peep this time around.
The Democratic Party is beyond frustrating. I'm not some genius, and I pretty much laid out everything that is happening right now 3 years ago. It's ridiculous that there hasn't been more action on this. Merrick Garland holds blame. Biden and Harris hold blame. Every democrat holds blame for this lack of cohesiveness and this continued inability to organize around any sort of thoughtful plan of action, not just during these Trump times, but literally for decades. Now it's just more tragically unforgivable.
Regardless, i would hope that ultimately when this is decided that it won't make a difference with the core voters who were going to vote Democratic anyway. Basically, anyone that's upset about what you're posting here (and I do understand, I'm upset about it too) is most likely going to vote Democrat anyway in my eyes.
Biden has been a great president. But he also looked terrible out there. He sounded weak, he had his mouth just hanging open with his face frozen while Trump rambled, and his reactions were slow. I would really prefer if he dropped out and threw support to someone younger. That said, I would vote for a dead cat over Trump. Trump is trying to end democracy in America. He thinks The Handmaid’s Tale is an instruction manual. The fact that he’s even allowed to run is an insult to the constitution.
I think most people who want a replacement are in the same boat as me. I’m not voting for Biden because I want Biden. I’m voting for the future of America because I don’t want Trump.
Biden and the Democrats could really screw the whole Trump movement by waiting until after the Republican convention. Let them beat Biden up. Then Biden endorses a new, strong, new candidate that Republicans could vote for. Republicans have spent billions on the anti Biden. All this money will be gone, and they will have only 2 and a half months to scramble. The Dems will have their convention in August. Nicki Haley is the only Republican who is sounding this alarm. We all get old. People just want someone other than Dump to vote for. Let's give it to them.
I'm just worried about him bombing the second debate. The future of the world lies in the balance. Democrats will hold firm. But I worry about Independents.
He should never have done the first debate. He definitely shouldn't do another. What would be the point? They don't really persuade anyone to change their minds. They're a huge waste of valuable time, energy and money. We need an onslaught of advertising on TV and social media in the battleground states heavily featuring the competence of Kamala Harris, the rest of bidens administration (the whole Biden team) and their vision for the future. Independents need to realize they're not just voting for 1 man alone.
Well this does sound like a good idea and all, but there are still some issues that could arise if this strategy was pursued.
In some state laws (notably Ohio's) there is a deadline for when a presidential nominee must be confirmed for them to appear on ballots within the state that occur before the DNC. Though these laws usually haven't been strictly enforced, there has been controversy earlier this year when the Ohio state government tried to enforce these laws (meaning that they weren't going to let the DNC candidate appear on the ballot this November). Though the did later backtrack and instill a [temporary solution](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/ohio-passes-bill-ensure-biden-will-appear-states-general-election-ball-rcna154752), the law could still be re weaponized if the democrats replace their head candidate.
Just wanting to put this out here bc I want to bring awareness to this issue as well as to point out a possible unforeseen consequence that could harm many voters.
First off, I will vote for a bag of rocks over Trump. The problem I think is that Biden's whole appeal in 2020 was that he could beat Trump. He was what the conventional wisdom believed was the safest choice, and once we beat Trump he can finally be made accountable for his crimes and we can at least start to get back to maving forward. And yet here we are, back to the same election AGAIN! Why have we failed to hold hin accountable? Why have we seemed to learn nothing from Trump's first term? The right have "Project 2025", their disgusting plans for us going forward which they claim doesn't require them to win the election. What is the Democrat version of "Project 2025"? Why can Republicans control the legislature even when they are in the minority, but Democrats can't seem to be effective even when they win? It is an unnacceptable situastion to be put in every four years.
Why do members of Congress who participated in the Jan 6 insurrection still have jobs? Why aren't they being investigated and brought on charges? Treason is still a thing.
There needs to be a [2/3 majority](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_from_the_United_States_Congress) vote to expel a member of congress. The Democratic Party does not have 2/3 of the vote and the Republican Party will not go against one of their own. Unless that person goes doesn’t fall in line (see Madison Cawthorne or Liz Cheney).
People truly memory hole just how awful Biden was in the primary in 2019-2020. I'm sorry as someone who paid attention to it with a fine tooth comb it was a mess. And it wasn't just online people or a stereotype of the left on twitter. Vote Blue No Matter Who liberals were not entirely convinced. There is a reason Julian Castro has been completely sidelined. The media wasn't on Biden's side through most of it. One of Biden's favorite media figure Joe Scarborough said on live TV at one point 'is this guy OK'. The DNC people did not corral around him either until the end. Hell anyone remember Bloomberg swooping in and getting endorsements in the South? It was reported that Obama privately said he didn't believe Biden had it in him and Biden was asked about this rumor and said yes he can believe it!
When South Carolina came through however where the polls were always strong for Biden there and despite cratering in Nevada then that's when the DNC became all hands on deck. And I say this as someone who would crawl hands and knees to vote in this election for Biden if he remains the nominee. This is not only so much bigger than Biden but Trump. Project 2025 is the roadmap for all the future GOP and it’s already happening.
This should be a huge wake-up call for the Democrats to get their shit together and run younger, quality candidates in 2028. Party needs a re-brand to attract younger voters. The party leadership is completely of touch with reality. Where's our version of Project 2025? What's the plan to stop Project 2025? There's not one...Roe v Wade was overturned. Fascism is knocking at the door, and there's no plan.
Biden had to have sucked during debate practice also. Who failed to notice that???? Embarrassing. It's pretty apparent he is frail and feeble.
The octagenarians need to go. We need term limits and age limits. That Trump and Biden are our choices is absolutely pathetic. This is the BEST America has???? Really??? We're f*cked.
The "debate" was not a debate. It was a set up. Biden didn't "lose". He was unable to both rebut the lies, and make his own case in 2 minute sound bites. No one could. The format of the debate is the issue.
In the past, debate formats made sense, when people actually competed on ideas. It's obsolete in the era of the "firehose of falsehoods" strategy of the right. There is literally no way to counter a gish gallop of lies in a 2 minute soundbite.
Take a higher level view. The far right has no proposals for improving the lives of ordinary people. That's the bottom line. Doesn't matter how good they are at cancelling others with the torrent of lies. They have no attractive ideas.
Ignore them. We should stop platforming them. Vote.
But Biden's team was the one who created the parameters for the debate. Like we knew last time around Trump would spew lies the entire time. The real question is why did Biden provide/agree to a platform for Trump? Hopefully he learned his lesson and cancels the September debate because absolutely no one wants to see that shit again.
That's exactly where democrats are failing and why they are out of touch. It's a new age and time to adapt. It's not 1980 anymore. Better be able to get your point across in the 30-second sound bite. Any decent public speaker could have easily called out Trump's lies quickly. Nobody had time for long, drawn-out answers in the social media age. It's all about the sound bites.
The TV debate format is what's old. Presidential debates used to be run by the League of Women voters, a nonpartisan nonprofit. When the TV networks took over hosting, they bowed out because of they felt the format was wrong. It is now a contest for ratings, so allowing gishgallop beat downs garners ratings, but does not help democracy.
No one can win a gishgallop in a debate with two minute responses. Go back and look at how long it took the factcheckers to rebut the lies. Some are still reporting out today.
If Biden wastes his two-min response to rebut, it only reinforces the lie. He cannot promote his positions. Not enough time to do both.
Rand corporation and other organizations have studied disinformation and propaganda techniques. Debunking is not effective. What is effective is inoculating the public about the technique, and shutting down the sources of the lies. In our case, our own media are platforming tRumps endless lies because it is profitable for them. They are engagement farming, and stabbing democracy in the back for profit.
I don't think so. If Biden stays in, that's who I'm voting for. If he drops out, I'll vote for whoever the Dem candidate is regardless. Me and all the Dems I know are voting for the party, administration and policies that represent us best, not a specific person.
The debate only hurt our chances with independents and any undecided voters.
The sad thing here is that you're all so busy correctly saying that Republicans are terrible that you don't notice how terrible the Democrats are too.
The system is working exactly as designed.
>My gut reaction is, “why couldn’t this conversation about ave been had back in 2016 when Orangenator ran the first time?
We had that conversation when the party chose Hillary over Sanders. And then after we had a bunch of mediocre young candidates running (Yang, Buttigieg, etc...) for 2020, and Biden was really the only viable candidate (Yang...yuck [he backed Joe Rogan's use of racial slurs as a BIPOC...big no from me] , Buttigieg had only mayoral experience of a small Midwest city and was not great at it, people were weary of Harris and her ties to the police...).
One thing that does worry me is that some % of people ( probably Boomer MSNBC liberals like my parents ) *actually* like Biden as opposed to "blue no matter who" or "fuck Trump." Some percentage of these people will dig their heels in at people who are calling for Biden to step aside and then refuse to vote for his replacement, unfortunately. It's human nature.
My actual parents are smart enough that they'll come around before November, but many like them might not.
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>why couldn’t this conversation about ave been had back in 2016 when Orangenator ran the first time?
First, please check your grammar, yeesh.
Also, I wasn't thrilled about Hillary but Trump should have never won against her. This country proved to be very lost about standing up for competence and decency in 2016.
Hillary knew how to serve the people.
Support will consolidate at the convention around the chosen candidate. As of now, that’s Biden, but he could still step aside for someone else. Whomever that will be won’t be a 3rd option, it will be the chosen Democratic candidate and that’s the person we vote for in order to defeat maga. Period.
Just like 2016, there is a concerted effort to sew seeds of apathy towards the Democrat. Republicans can't win the popular vote, so their strategy is to get as many people to stay home or vote 3rd party. They can't speak to any good Trump has done, so they are going to spend their time telling us that Biden can't do the job he has been doing.
No. Remember all of the big talk online and in the streets about the "red wave" midterm election that never happened? It was hyped up by the press to be a bigger issue than it was and online the hard-core right spent all of their free time building it up to the point that all anyone saw was "red wave this" and "red wave that" on every platform. Yet, come voting days... all we saw was a trickle. (Imagine that! Take away women's rights by overturning RvW and what did they think we would do?)
I feel like it will be similar in the coming elections much like it was for the last one. Trump showed his as and his incredible (beautiful bigly) incompetence and the blues aren't about to let another 4 years of power go to that guy again. The red is good at puffing up their chest and appearing to be a bigger group than they are but when it comes down to it, they're not as large and organized as they think they are. Many left leaning people who didn't vote before are more enticed to vote right now. There was no red wave last time and there won't be one this time, and as Trump refused to directly answer the question during the debate (*Will you accept the loss if you do not win majority* or however it was phrased, with his response being to bring up the election fraud that never happened) he will definitely entice another angry, directionless mob to storm the streets in his name when he loses again.
I do understand the decent because even I am not impressed with the Whitehouse right now. They should have chosen a different candidate for the 2024 election and they let this happen.
I think what could happen is those that don’t want to vote for Biden but still democrats could vote for the librarian or independent candidate. Which in itself has consequences because it takes votes away from Biden.
If the Dems choose a new candidate I would be satisfied with that. I’m 100% for democracy, but I feel the Whitehouse is not putting the future of the Democratic Party first and creating an effective strategy of beating Trump first.
That "I got mine" bullshit is only going to make things worse. Libertarianism may work as an ethos at a household level but its very precepts of hyper-liberty undermines itself at a policy level. Re: The Free State Project.
I don't think it's possible for Biden to win at this point. I'm convincing my local community to support Cornel West because he is the best option who could still win and bring justice to Palestine.
Cornel is not able to get the electoral college vote which is all that matters with how or system works. If you want to vote for him then do I but know he cannot win. If he gets a certain amount of percentage points then the party he is running under can qualify for funding to grow, but Cornel has no chance of winning this election.
Despite the constant drumbeat of negativity from the press, come November, tens of millions of Americans will ‘vote blue no matter who’. The people who opposed Trump in 2020 were reminded why during the debate. Nobody who voted against Trump in 2020 will change their vote in 2024. And let’s be perfectly clear, Americans didn’t really vote for Biden as much as they voted against Trump. The dynamics of 2020 are the exact same dynamics at play in 2024.
I think you’re right. This gives me some hope.
Keep in mind too that they know this. All the shit we hear about Maga nuts doing more and worse than Jan 6th is intimidation and bravado. The voter intimidation, the plans to disrupt polling locations, the voter suppression, it's all because the GOP has known for a while now that they can't win a fair election. Don't get me wrong, if Biden wins, I'm pretty sure we will see a J6 v2, but the situation in the white house is different this time even though the voting dynamics haven't changed.
>Don't get me wrong, if Biden wins, I'm pretty sure we will see a J6 v2, but the situation in the white house is different this time even though the voting dynamics haven't changed. Biden won't watch for 3 hours like Trump did. Those MAGA Cultist can try to re-do J6 but Biden and the administration are prepared this time around. They know what that cult did on J6. Only thing more worrying is MAGA Republican Speaker denying the votes and the MAGA Supreme Court giving Trump the Presidency. It blows my mind that con-man Trump and McConnell thought the long game thru. I'm sad for our country but will still vote for Biden and Blue down the line.
I'm more concerned (as far as violence goes) about more widespread diffuse attacks this time around. Some rubes might try DC, but I'd be surprised if the people calling the shots think they will get anywhere just trying to carbon copy J6. I agree that McConnel and the supreme court are a bigger threat this time around.... that's the one that really makes me nervous...
I push pencils for a government contractor. After the insurrection, we built an off-site duplicate of the interior of the House of Representatives. It’s so perfect, even the CSPAN producers can’t tell when we switch the feed. House Reps were briefed and we had them out for training in the alt House during a break. In session, once a month the reps hold regular business there— and nobody outside would even know it’s happening. We have told the Reps that it’s a matter of national security, blah blah. We knew they would leak it. Fuckin Ted Cruz will put his beer goggles on and start flirting with some muscular gay waiter at a BBQ joint somewhere and he will say anything for dick, so the following week everybody knows whatever he knows. Of course it leaked. We did some leaking of real and fake info ourselves. We want the weirdos to think and behave a certain way. Like, we said we had sites 3 through 13 also built or being built, which is only partly true. And we also leaked that one site has been chosen for the next presidential vote count… and we leaked that it has a flaw that makes it the most vulnerable location (an exhaust vent lol). The extremists will show up to hurt Representatives, but it will be an ambush. lol
One point nobody seems to be making. No matter what 99% of DEMs think, Biden winning, losing, or staying in the race is beyond our control. The DEM deep pocket whales that provide the bulk of the monetary fuel for the Biden campaign will make their own decision as to whether or not they see a path forward for Biden. If the majority of the whales decide they do not see a path forward they will advise Biden of their decision. Recent polls I have seen show 60% - 70% of Americans think Biden should quit. Biden was basically even in the polls pre-debate. It will cost a significant increase in cash donations to pay for PR for Reputation Rehab do-over mini campaign to reach out to those reachable independent candidates. Also, they will probably have to pay to reach the low energy / low info DEMS who are dumb enough to think about RFK Jr, who may benefit from these voters Biden lost during the debate. I suspect the DEM big donors will fund some "focus group" studies of the reachable voters and compute some sort of cost analysis of converting these folks and the statistical likelihood of electing Biden. If the big DEM Donors don't see a path forward and they advise Biden to get out. Biden can either take their advice and get out or seek to have his campaign funded by us little fish. Conclusion: If the big fish decide to cut their losses and bail on Biden, the liklihood of DJT becoming the next President IMHO surges. Other Point: If Biden stays in, IMHO THERE IS NO FRIGGING WAY HE SHOULD DEBATE IN SEPTEMBER.
Trump won't debate him again. He got the best case scenario at the last debate, he won't want to risk Biden coming across as lucid or competent.
I think Trump would say he would debate, whether he planned to or not. That way if, when Biden backed out of debating him, Trump would call Biden a chicken shit. I don't see Biden's remaining big donors standing behind him if Biden wanted to debate.
This. I was making excuses for Joe prior to the debate. I now believe firmly that he needs to step down and be replaced. But I’ll vote blue regardless. No chance I’m sitting out or voting for facism
Vote for a fucking potted plant before any Republican. It's sad that the choice is what it is but it's still an obvious one.
Yes and I’d add to that the abortion and IVF access that so many want.
That’s all fine and good. But the votes that matter are the ones in the swing states. Don’t let yourself get comfortable. There still needs to be major GOTV efforts for blue voters in those swing states. Even if you don’t live in a swing state, you can get involved remotely. Plenty of groups you can volunteer with.
This same nonsense happened in 2020. Not on this scale and not all at once, but there were plenty of people saying Biden should step aside and the DNC should pick someone else. Andrew Cuomo was a name shouted out several times. That would have gone well... Anyway, give it a week or two and I think this will mostly fade.
The most amazing thing to me is how many people are somehow (at least seemingly) able to ignore politics completely and/or lack any understanding of what’s at stake. Yeah, I don’t expect everyone to spend as much time as I do reading and watching political stuff, but come on! Not to mention I saw DJT for what he was when he first opened his mouth. We’re so fat, dumb, and happy we think nothing can put this nation off the rails I guess.
Sleepwalking. The house is on fire, the bed is burning, and people are like, ‘oh, voting never changes anything’
Most Americans are too busy to pay attention.
And ‘they’ want to keep it this way. In addition to closing schools or dumbing them down to teaching the bible instead of real world knowledge needed to pull yourself up.
I hear this as a valid observation and I also vehemently oppose continuing to accept it as an excuse. If people can watch 17 Tik Tok videos on their lunch break, they can take five minutes to read a news article or watch a quick segment on YouTube. Americans are hard working people, but Americans also love a good excuse for remaining neck deep in the sand. We have to stop giving them those excuses.
According to a majority of posts on r/politics, the election is pretty much over and Trump is already president-elect. I can't stand the defeatism, there's nothing productive to be gained. Yeah, I know the right will keep running clips of Biden from the debate. Have we forgotten that is a two-way street? Trump gave plenty of sound bites also, including "black jobs" and "abortion after birth". It will be interesting to see what happens in twelve days when Trump is sentenced.
The abortion after birth chaps my hide. No realtime fact checking is one thing, but some moderation could have mentioned this.
Yeah. The overwhelming majority of Trump's lies are not remotely now. Watch a few of his ads and campaign speeches and the insane lies are there.
Defeatism
The one for me is that Putin “told him he was going to invade Ukraine.”
Reminder that we're not just voting for the man, *but also for the people he surrounds himself with*. I don't want Bannon or Steven Miller and their ilk anywhere near the levers of power.
If there is a division, we had better get it together and whether or not you love it or are excited about it "vote blue no matter who". If not, I promise this will be the last election you ever get to vote in. Don't forget how things happened last time. It was not a peaceful transition of power, there have still been no consequences for that by the way. We were so close, it was a trial run.
It will be much worse. Good lord. I hope no one is killed.
FTFY: I hope no one ELSE is killed. Not trying to be an ass, but it needs saying that Trump and his fascist games are literally killing people. Somewhere between 1-10 people died from Jan. 6 events, depending on how you count. Attacks on election workers are increasing. He is continuing to push very violent rhetoric. More people are going to die.
Democrats need to avoid that division at all costs right now. Biden is not the only person making decisions while in office. Now is the time for democrats to rally together because we have a terrifying threat looming over us that we need the power of numbers to defeat.
The campaign needs to put VP Harris out there every day. Send Obama, Jasmine Crockett, Wes Moore, Democratic Latino Representatives, women, young people, older adults, and all of the Republicans who don’t endorse Trump put them out there to make the case against Trump. This is war. Dems need to start fighting for their lives. Reach out to Independents and get people registered to vote. Talk about what Biden has done and all the damage Trump did. Talk about Project 2025, abortion rights, infrastructure, Bibles in schools, unemployment, book banning. We have so many points in our favor. Trump’s convictions and indictments should all be mentioned on a daily basis everywhere. Get Democrats in the South to vote. We must fight.
Exactly this. Right now is not the time to start fighting with each other or pointing out one another’s shortcomings. We’ll deal with that later. Let’s first get this over with so we can at least have the kind of society that allows for the sort of dialogue we’re going to need to have with sensitivity and sincerity. Not this lip service hogwash we’ve gotten from Trump people.
No. I think this blows over in a week, unless the next round of polls are a blood bath, which I don’t think they will be. The NYT is really, really pushing hard for it, tho. Seriously, fuck them.
Fuck the New York Times! I cancelled my subscription three years ago when they kept publishing articles sympathetic the the travails of anti vaxers. Not during a global pandemic that's killing people, you assholes. The New York Times is the epitome of elite centrist hand wringing.
The smart money knows this will never blow over. The "Biden is too old" swing voters now have their irrefutable proof and that can't ever be undone. The Democrats stubbornness and ignorance of this glaring issue is going to be the final nail in the coffin.
Of course it was blowing over. The Sleepy Joe meme was all but dead and buried, or did you forget all the excuse making by the GOP pre debate accusing Biden of taking PEDs? All it took was a major stumble by Biden to open the floodgates. The speed with which NYT/centrist media pundit class launched its attack was stunning, my dude. *They didn’t even wait for the debate to finish.* I was witness to the real time meltdown on X/Twitter.
Biden is a successful incumbent president that has already beaten Trump once and has literally never lost a general election. It's not stubbornness to support him, it's thinking logically instead of emotionally. And you all want to replace him with *someone* you can't even name 5 months before an election. All because he had laryngitis and one bad debate. Fucking idiotic. I don't see how this country doesn't deserve Trump if we push for stupid shit like this.
Defeatism
I don't think any Democrats are threatening to not vote for the nominee, either because they're outraged that it's Biden or because they're outraged it's not Biden. By November, the argument over whether to replace Biden will be over, and Democrats will unite behind the nominee. We have to worry about the marginal Democratic voters (on the left and in the center) but not about loyal Democrats who disagree about who the nominee should be.
It might cause more people to rally around Joe like bad press caused Trump's base to rally around him. Too early to see and depends on unknown factors.
The debate doesn’t mean jack. No drumph or Dark Brandon supporters are going to change their minds. Fair-weather Dems might squawk about replacing Biden, but that isn’t happening for a multitude of reasons, and if the debate convinced them to vote for donnie 2-poops, that was a vote you couldn’t count on anyway. I mean, the tangerine turd lied 50 times in 90 minutes, and verbally blundered about not answering questions in a truly bizarre fashion. In the end, it isn’t about either man, inflation, climate change, Israel, Gaza, or the boarder. It is about Democracy vs. theocratic nazis. Period. We can work on all the other things after the landslide.
Even if Biden doesn’t step down, I’m still voting for potential president Harris. Vote blue. Fuck trump.
There can be nuance here. You can both recognize that we need fresh leadership in the White House and a more attractive Dem candidate…AND that right now, Trump running again puts me and a lot of my friends in danger as LGBTQ+ individuals. I don’t have the luxury of voting third party or not voting at all, despite understanding the sentiment. I *have* to vote for the party that will do the least amount of damage.
Notice how this time during the debate Trump didn’t mention our community *once*? Even if it was all bullshit I do remember him in ‘16 & ‘20 at least acknowledging gay people & pretending he was interested in our votes. Haven’t heard a peep this time around.
The Democratic Party is beyond frustrating. I'm not some genius, and I pretty much laid out everything that is happening right now 3 years ago. It's ridiculous that there hasn't been more action on this. Merrick Garland holds blame. Biden and Harris hold blame. Every democrat holds blame for this lack of cohesiveness and this continued inability to organize around any sort of thoughtful plan of action, not just during these Trump times, but literally for decades. Now it's just more tragically unforgivable. Regardless, i would hope that ultimately when this is decided that it won't make a difference with the core voters who were going to vote Democratic anyway. Basically, anyone that's upset about what you're posting here (and I do understand, I'm upset about it too) is most likely going to vote Democrat anyway in my eyes.
Biden has been a great president. But he also looked terrible out there. He sounded weak, he had his mouth just hanging open with his face frozen while Trump rambled, and his reactions were slow. I would really prefer if he dropped out and threw support to someone younger. That said, I would vote for a dead cat over Trump. Trump is trying to end democracy in America. He thinks The Handmaid’s Tale is an instruction manual. The fact that he’s even allowed to run is an insult to the constitution. I think most people who want a replacement are in the same boat as me. I’m not voting for Biden because I want Biden. I’m voting for the future of America because I don’t want Trump.
Very well said.
Has there been any recent polling of independents in battleground states post-debate? Seems like the only ones coming out are of dems only.
That is what they need to be doing now!
I'm an independent, though that will change. I'm not doing ANYTHING that might get us that Nazi pos as President.
Biden and the Democrats could really screw the whole Trump movement by waiting until after the Republican convention. Let them beat Biden up. Then Biden endorses a new, strong, new candidate that Republicans could vote for. Republicans have spent billions on the anti Biden. All this money will be gone, and they will have only 2 and a half months to scramble. The Dems will have their convention in August. Nicki Haley is the only Republican who is sounding this alarm. We all get old. People just want someone other than Dump to vote for. Let's give it to them.
Now that is an EXCELLENT idea!!!! I really hope someone from the DNC sees your comment. Maybe you can even email it to them.
I'm just worried about him bombing the second debate. The future of the world lies in the balance. Democrats will hold firm. But I worry about Independents.
He should never have done the first debate. He definitely shouldn't do another. What would be the point? They don't really persuade anyone to change their minds. They're a huge waste of valuable time, energy and money. We need an onslaught of advertising on TV and social media in the battleground states heavily featuring the competence of Kamala Harris, the rest of bidens administration (the whole Biden team) and their vision for the future. Independents need to realize they're not just voting for 1 man alone.
So the solution is to move even more to the right to (hopefully) get right wing votes?
No. Some Repubs will vote for anyone as long as they protect the democracy
That seems to be placing a lot of faith in a group of people who don't exactly line up ideologically.
Well this does sound like a good idea and all, but there are still some issues that could arise if this strategy was pursued. In some state laws (notably Ohio's) there is a deadline for when a presidential nominee must be confirmed for them to appear on ballots within the state that occur before the DNC. Though these laws usually haven't been strictly enforced, there has been controversy earlier this year when the Ohio state government tried to enforce these laws (meaning that they weren't going to let the DNC candidate appear on the ballot this November). Though the did later backtrack and instill a [temporary solution](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/ohio-passes-bill-ensure-biden-will-appear-states-general-election-ball-rcna154752), the law could still be re weaponized if the democrats replace their head candidate. Just wanting to put this out here bc I want to bring awareness to this issue as well as to point out a possible unforeseen consequence that could harm many voters.
First off, I will vote for a bag of rocks over Trump. The problem I think is that Biden's whole appeal in 2020 was that he could beat Trump. He was what the conventional wisdom believed was the safest choice, and once we beat Trump he can finally be made accountable for his crimes and we can at least start to get back to maving forward. And yet here we are, back to the same election AGAIN! Why have we failed to hold hin accountable? Why have we seemed to learn nothing from Trump's first term? The right have "Project 2025", their disgusting plans for us going forward which they claim doesn't require them to win the election. What is the Democrat version of "Project 2025"? Why can Republicans control the legislature even when they are in the minority, but Democrats can't seem to be effective even when they win? It is an unnacceptable situastion to be put in every four years.
Why do members of Congress who participated in the Jan 6 insurrection still have jobs? Why aren't they being investigated and brought on charges? Treason is still a thing.
There needs to be a [2/3 majority](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_from_the_United_States_Congress) vote to expel a member of congress. The Democratic Party does not have 2/3 of the vote and the Republican Party will not go against one of their own. Unless that person goes doesn’t fall in line (see Madison Cawthorne or Liz Cheney).
People truly memory hole just how awful Biden was in the primary in 2019-2020. I'm sorry as someone who paid attention to it with a fine tooth comb it was a mess. And it wasn't just online people or a stereotype of the left on twitter. Vote Blue No Matter Who liberals were not entirely convinced. There is a reason Julian Castro has been completely sidelined. The media wasn't on Biden's side through most of it. One of Biden's favorite media figure Joe Scarborough said on live TV at one point 'is this guy OK'. The DNC people did not corral around him either until the end. Hell anyone remember Bloomberg swooping in and getting endorsements in the South? It was reported that Obama privately said he didn't believe Biden had it in him and Biden was asked about this rumor and said yes he can believe it! When South Carolina came through however where the polls were always strong for Biden there and despite cratering in Nevada then that's when the DNC became all hands on deck. And I say this as someone who would crawl hands and knees to vote in this election for Biden if he remains the nominee. This is not only so much bigger than Biden but Trump. Project 2025 is the roadmap for all the future GOP and it’s already happening.
This should be a huge wake-up call for the Democrats to get their shit together and run younger, quality candidates in 2028. Party needs a re-brand to attract younger voters. The party leadership is completely of touch with reality. Where's our version of Project 2025? What's the plan to stop Project 2025? There's not one...Roe v Wade was overturned. Fascism is knocking at the door, and there's no plan. Biden had to have sucked during debate practice also. Who failed to notice that???? Embarrassing. It's pretty apparent he is frail and feeble. The octagenarians need to go. We need term limits and age limits. That Trump and Biden are our choices is absolutely pathetic. This is the BEST America has???? Really??? We're f*cked.
I mostly agree but if the Dem candidate, whoever it may be, doesn't win in November, I don't think there will be another election in 2028.
The "debate" was not a debate. It was a set up. Biden didn't "lose". He was unable to both rebut the lies, and make his own case in 2 minute sound bites. No one could. The format of the debate is the issue. In the past, debate formats made sense, when people actually competed on ideas. It's obsolete in the era of the "firehose of falsehoods" strategy of the right. There is literally no way to counter a gish gallop of lies in a 2 minute soundbite. Take a higher level view. The far right has no proposals for improving the lives of ordinary people. That's the bottom line. Doesn't matter how good they are at cancelling others with the torrent of lies. They have no attractive ideas. Ignore them. We should stop platforming them. Vote.
But Biden's team was the one who created the parameters for the debate. Like we knew last time around Trump would spew lies the entire time. The real question is why did Biden provide/agree to a platform for Trump? Hopefully he learned his lesson and cancels the September debate because absolutely no one wants to see that shit again.
That's exactly where democrats are failing and why they are out of touch. It's a new age and time to adapt. It's not 1980 anymore. Better be able to get your point across in the 30-second sound bite. Any decent public speaker could have easily called out Trump's lies quickly. Nobody had time for long, drawn-out answers in the social media age. It's all about the sound bites.
The TV debate format is what's old. Presidential debates used to be run by the League of Women voters, a nonpartisan nonprofit. When the TV networks took over hosting, they bowed out because of they felt the format was wrong. It is now a contest for ratings, so allowing gishgallop beat downs garners ratings, but does not help democracy. No one can win a gishgallop in a debate with two minute responses. Go back and look at how long it took the factcheckers to rebut the lies. Some are still reporting out today. If Biden wastes his two-min response to rebut, it only reinforces the lie. He cannot promote his positions. Not enough time to do both. Rand corporation and other organizations have studied disinformation and propaganda techniques. Debunking is not effective. What is effective is inoculating the public about the technique, and shutting down the sources of the lies. In our case, our own media are platforming tRumps endless lies because it is profitable for them. They are engagement farming, and stabbing democracy in the back for profit.
I don't think so. If Biden stays in, that's who I'm voting for. If he drops out, I'll vote for whoever the Dem candidate is regardless. Me and all the Dems I know are voting for the party, administration and policies that represent us best, not a specific person. The debate only hurt our chances with independents and any undecided voters.
The sad thing here is that you're all so busy correctly saying that Republicans are terrible that you don't notice how terrible the Democrats are too. The system is working exactly as designed.
>My gut reaction is, “why couldn’t this conversation about ave been had back in 2016 when Orangenator ran the first time? We had that conversation when the party chose Hillary over Sanders. And then after we had a bunch of mediocre young candidates running (Yang, Buttigieg, etc...) for 2020, and Biden was really the only viable candidate (Yang...yuck [he backed Joe Rogan's use of racial slurs as a BIPOC...big no from me] , Buttigieg had only mayoral experience of a small Midwest city and was not great at it, people were weary of Harris and her ties to the police...).
One thing that does worry me is that some % of people ( probably Boomer MSNBC liberals like my parents ) *actually* like Biden as opposed to "blue no matter who" or "fuck Trump." Some percentage of these people will dig their heels in at people who are calling for Biden to step aside and then refuse to vote for his replacement, unfortunately. It's human nature. My actual parents are smart enough that they'll come around before November, but many like them might not.
Ageism
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>why couldn’t this conversation about ave been had back in 2016 when Orangenator ran the first time? First, please check your grammar, yeesh. Also, I wasn't thrilled about Hillary but Trump should have never won against her. This country proved to be very lost about standing up for competence and decency in 2016. Hillary knew how to serve the people.
Republicans need to have Trump step down because he is unqualified.
Support will consolidate at the convention around the chosen candidate. As of now, that’s Biden, but he could still step aside for someone else. Whomever that will be won’t be a 3rd option, it will be the chosen Democratic candidate and that’s the person we vote for in order to defeat maga. Period.
The debate is just a symptom. The US is a house demarcated long time ago.
Just like 2016, there is a concerted effort to sew seeds of apathy towards the Democrat. Republicans can't win the popular vote, so their strategy is to get as many people to stay home or vote 3rd party. They can't speak to any good Trump has done, so they are going to spend their time telling us that Biden can't do the job he has been doing.
No. Remember all of the big talk online and in the streets about the "red wave" midterm election that never happened? It was hyped up by the press to be a bigger issue than it was and online the hard-core right spent all of their free time building it up to the point that all anyone saw was "red wave this" and "red wave that" on every platform. Yet, come voting days... all we saw was a trickle. (Imagine that! Take away women's rights by overturning RvW and what did they think we would do?) I feel like it will be similar in the coming elections much like it was for the last one. Trump showed his as and his incredible (beautiful bigly) incompetence and the blues aren't about to let another 4 years of power go to that guy again. The red is good at puffing up their chest and appearing to be a bigger group than they are but when it comes down to it, they're not as large and organized as they think they are. Many left leaning people who didn't vote before are more enticed to vote right now. There was no red wave last time and there won't be one this time, and as Trump refused to directly answer the question during the debate (*Will you accept the loss if you do not win majority* or however it was phrased, with his response being to bring up the election fraud that never happened) he will definitely entice another angry, directionless mob to storm the streets in his name when he loses again.
I do understand the decent because even I am not impressed with the Whitehouse right now. They should have chosen a different candidate for the 2024 election and they let this happen. I think what could happen is those that don’t want to vote for Biden but still democrats could vote for the librarian or independent candidate. Which in itself has consequences because it takes votes away from Biden. If the Dems choose a new candidate I would be satisfied with that. I’m 100% for democracy, but I feel the Whitehouse is not putting the future of the Democratic Party first and creating an effective strategy of beating Trump first.
libertarianism >
That "I got mine" bullshit is only going to make things worse. Libertarianism may work as an ethos at a household level but its very precepts of hyper-liberty undermines itself at a policy level. Re: The Free State Project.
I never heard say I got mine. that sound like some made up bs ppl spread. where they say that?
Seriously?? Well, the libertarians hate Trump too.
we do
I don't think it's possible for Biden to win at this point. I'm convincing my local community to support Cornel West because he is the best option who could still win and bring justice to Palestine.
West cannot win nationwide.
Cornel is not able to get the electoral college vote which is all that matters with how or system works. If you want to vote for him then do I but know he cannot win. If he gets a certain amount of percentage points then the party he is running under can qualify for funding to grow, but Cornel has no chance of winning this election.