The Nazis only won 33% before being made Chancellor too - but the NSDAP had a shadow government in place, and quickly installed loyalists to every government position
... what Project set to launch in 2025 does that sound like?
That 75 million are much more organized, much more violence happy, and much more trained in weaponry on average than the rest of the population (assuming gun nuts are much more likely to be conservative and MAGA.) There are too many liberals that dare wont touch a gun, let alone be able to use it in any effective way.
Buy guns, liberals. Please. Now!
You can store them responsibly! If gun regulations get passed, you can follow them. If it becomes illegal to own a type of gun you have, you can turn it in. You aren't giving up *anything* by arming yourself in the interim!
Not just buy, but train together. You have to have the training to make sure that you will effectively be able to use it. Also check out r/liberalgunowners
Buy it 2nd hand, that way the funds are going to an average joe wanting to make some cash to pay for bills, rather than add funds to the pro-gun lobby. Exploit the loopholes. *(taps head)*
We bought guns at auction. I hate them ALL. I learned to shoot them. I hate it. I feel like I am learning to shoot my neighbors because that’s the only reason I bought the guns. I want to vomit. Yes I think I will go to that Norwegian goat farm because I just don’t want to shoot my neighbors even though they are fucking assholes. I just don’t think I can do it.
I have been shocked to hear how many family/ friends/ neighbors who have purchased and been training with weapons since 2016. However, since they range from Black, or Jewish or gay or Muslim, I understand why they did.
I bought a gun to protect my partners. One’s trans and the other is black and Jewish, and we’re all queer and polyamorous. I hate owning it and pray to God I’ll never have to use it, but with the way things are going in this country, I don’t want to take any chances. I love them and would lay down my life for them.
I'm sorry, but this is the way the Red Hats talk. What do you expect people to do in real terms?
75 millions is still a lot of people. And many of them have positions of significant power. There must be thousands of lawyers amongst them. And all the evidence suggests they're being legally prepped to the teeth.
If they disrupt the election and get the SC to rule in their favour, what would you have people do? Storm the Court, j6 style? Hope newly minted King Biden will save us?
Huh? That's a weird rebuttal.
GOP legal power is zero. That's why they have to cheat and buy people.
That's why they need to change current law.
That's why they want to rewrite the Constitution. Zero legal standing.
I agree with you but I think his point is that the other side will just SAY all the same reasons for doing what they do, and although it will be based on nonsense and lies, the only thing that will matter is whether people will believe it and commit violence to support it, not whether it's actually true.
This is a great point. Whatever they do, it doesn't have to be true, or legal, or watertight. It just has to stand up for a few weeks until January 20th.
Unless it's maybe on election day, I'm not sure if we'll see a lot of violence. One thing that's not around so much this time is talk of militia and rebellion. We haven't had a stand back and stand by moment yet. All the rumours we seem to be hearing point back to the courts.
How do we combat the Supreme Court as it stands right now? Ideally (in my opinion) we'll eventually make those elected positions with term limits, but what can we do right now to combat the Supreme Court ruling against our rights? I'm genuinely asking, I don't know what a feasible solution would be in our current situation
How about Eileen Cannon and the SC 6? They certainly have legal standing. What about Bill Paxton, or Ash Moody? They have legal standing.
The RNLA has chapters in every State, all with legal standing. The association lines them up with good Republican causes.
The Heritage Foundation actually trains young lawyers through internships and a development program. Maybe their legal standing is vague, but somebody has to fetch coffee!
The Right Wing has been playing the long game for 50 years and is extremely organized. Conservatives by nature are highly order oriented and hierarchal which gives them an advantage in planning and execution.
Is that an accurate number? I would think it's smaller given that the dumbasses got some of their own base killed off from covid. Like, they aren't even smart enough to keep their own base alive...
You’re exactly right. If you’re just formulating a plan to leave the country now, you’re way too late. You should have started the planning years ago. As a Canadian citizen it’s amusing the number of people who think they can just pack up and move to Canada. It’s very difficult and it takes years to obtain citizenship
We immigrated to Canada when I was 9. And then to US when I was 16. I don’t know much about what we had to do but I do know that it takes years of planning and obtaining the necessary approvals to be able to immigrate. And you also have to have appealing for them to accept you, like be able to contribute to the society and pay taxes. It’s not cheap.
It absolutely is. I'm working on moving countries, but it's something I've worked towards for years with a multitude of personal reasons. I still debate things that come up, and I know it'll just increase once I'm moving. For most people, becoming an immigrant for only one primary reason of emigrating will make the journey all the more difficult, based on what I've seen.
I will say, though, that moving and fighting aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not someone who can be front lines (health), but I've been involved in organizing, spreading information, and background work fighting. I'll continue that regardless of where I live. It's important for Americans to be involved with the fight whether or not they live in the US.
May get downvoted for this but I am an American that is now living in Europe. It is difficult to immigrate to another developed country, I was able to do so only because I have a STEM PhD without being old enough to be a burden on the healthcare system (many countries have a points system that will make you lose points even if you are still in your 30s). You usually need a job to get a VISA to live in a country for an extended period of time and it's just not realistic for a large majority of people. Countries that hire on a VISA usually need to justify that they can't find the skillset or people they need in their own country so less specialized positions or positions that aren't in very high demand can't just move country. Even if you have a skill there's a language barrier where they still might not take you if you only know English as many Americans do. You can look at the sub r/IWantOut and most posts are just getting eviscerated for being unrealistic about being able to move countries.
Agreed. I can understand anxiety and I get that it's hard when people have no irl group to offer support, but ideally I'd like to see a "scream into the void" weekly thread for all the panicking to be contained and for less anxious members to talk others down.
And for heaven's sake, the "why not a third party" and "it's over folks" posts need to get jettisoned outta here.
I wish those posts were scrubbed from multiple SM threads. They don’t help anyone except trumpers. They are laughing their heads off right now at how panicked liberals are, as they vote for their felon rapist insurrectionist. It’s sick, and I hate to feed it.
I also understand the anxiety, I do. I haven’t been able to sleep well since last week. But I’m more determined than ever to not shut up or shut down.
Yeah I'm honestly hoping I can flee, not because I want to leave others behind, but because I don't want to be killed or worse. Given I am queer, AFAB, and I don't present as white despite being mostly white that may happen to me if this stuff happens. I just finished my first year of college man I just want to be able to continue college, get my first apartment, maybe find a nice girl, finally get that first job I've been working so hard for, finally learn how to drive and learn that all of that may be thrown out the window within the next year? fucking devasting. I feel like fear for my life and everything I have worked so hard to get is reasonable at this point. I'm hoping trump doesn't get voted in, but realistically if I can't leave there is very little that can ensure my survival or that worse things won't happen to me if I am unable to leave, my family is a bunch of trump supporters, my friends are the same age as me and don't have that many resources. I don't know what to do at this point. I mean I'm just a young art major who is unarmed and doesn't have experience with firearms, what on earth am I supposed to do to fight back if worst comes to worst?
They want you to feel like it's hopeless because that means they have beaten you before they even needed to fight you. Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
These posts are even more stupid because it’s ridiculously difficult to move to a different country as an American, unless you have a relative that you can stay with.
Hear, hear. The fight against fascism is a global fight (e.g., France, Canada, Australia, Italy, etc.). Expatriating progressives may be fleeing the frying pan in the U.S. only to find themselves in the fire overseas. (Edited for clarity.)
I just don’t understand how people can forget what fascism is and what it does to everything people hope for. We have very good historical examples of this. Has half the population become stupid?
I specifically feel it is my duty to stay and fight. For sure I can understand to a degree a trans person fleeing (much like the Jewish people fleeing Nazi germany) but I personally am in a position to stay and fight. Not going anywhere.
Same. I’m gay & disabled. All the talk of “fighting” & arming? I can barely stand. Some of us are significantly more vulnerable. In the event of a crisis where people have to literally run for their lives, evacuate an area, I’m not physically able to do that. You don’t see many photos of refugees in wheelchairs in the mass of people fleeing war-torn countries. Some of us have much bigger targets on our backs.
Honestly OP can fuck right off with the personal attacks. I'm Jewish and disabled, my fiancee is trans and disabled, and we're in a same sex relationship. If this is what this subreddit is - attacking people for trying to avoid genocide - I'm not fucking staying subscribed to it.
Literally couldn’t have said this better! The wife and I are also a gay disabled couple. I feel for you. Like why the fuck would we stay? I’m so disgusted by this rhetoric and all the comments agreeing.
Unfortunately, a lot, or most, of trans people are going to be unable to flee. We're disproportionately affected by poverty and homelessness, and that makes it hard to get the funds for getting citizenship in another country or moving anywhere.
There's this phrase that the same $20 dollar bill is floating around all over the trans community, because trans people often need money and donations for survival or safety, and it's usually trans people donating to them, while having very little money as well.
I'm a trans woman, and all I can think when I see people saying they want to flee I just want to know where to. Because what's happening in the US is happening in a lot of places. We either stay and fight or we get herded into a smaller and smaller corner and exterminated when we are all together. History tells us how this story goes. If we choose not to fight now there may not be a tomorrow to fight for.
This is what I was trying to say in a thread earlier.
The doomerism I've been seeing since last week is, frankly, sickening. People are acting like it's already over before it's even happened, and then also acting like, if we lose the election, it's the end of the world and there's no hope and resistance is futile, because the US will become The Handmaid's Tale over night and anyone protesting will be gunned down, and you won't be able to even escape the country, and you'll be rounded up and sent to a camp.
At this point I have to wonder if it's a PsyOp meant to spread defeatism so people will be too beaten down and demoralized if the election is lost that they won't be able to resist.
Well, that's not the reality I want to live in. And that's not the future I'm going to have. Not without a fight.
I'm still voting but can we be a little real here? let's not pretend the doomerism and acting like we've already lost after scotus said that trump is above the law isn't well beyond warranted. yes, sadly, we did just lose, the Democrats are never in a million years going to make the reformations necessary to stop the dictatorship the next inevitable GOP candidate is going to bring, we can't even get Biden to pack the courts when he's literally already allowed to. max, we have 4 years *maybe* to undo the decades of damage the GOP has caused and I just do not see that ever happening
I'm not American nor much of a political scholar, but I've been playing this out in my head and would like to give my 2 cents' worth. You would need a MASSIVE landslide victory for Biden to have a chance at breaking through any attempts to hand Trump victory on legal technicality, which have already been described on this sub by more qualified persons.
In the event these efforts succeed or even threaten to do so, two things could happen, neither of them good. Firstly, people might attempt a general strike to coerce the government, which is easier said than done with the moribund state of unionism nowadays, and would paralyse America regardless. Secondly, Blue states like California may buck federal authority and threaten secession in order to protect themselves and political refugees sheltering in them, inviting a second American Civil War. President Lincoln's words about divided houses are still relevant, and this would also be disastrous for military allies like NATO who might still have cajoled aid from a mercurial Trump administration. Even with their power as the most productive and populated states, it would likely be an uphill fight against geographical divisions, and Red states backed by Federal forces and most of the Military-IC, which would naturally incline towards the side of deregulation (ditto for the Petroleum-IC). If things go truly pear-shaped, we may see new guidelines written about nuclear deterrents in a domestic theatre given the distribution of the country's arsenal and increasing irrationality in office ('let's blow up a hurricane!').
Of course, there's the wild-card of Biden cutting the Gordian knot and purging all his enemies, but we all know how likely that is and the awful precedent that would set. So in summation, I'd restate and recommend the obvious choice of voting for your lives, if you don't want to take this fight beyond the ballot-box.
Oh, believe me, I'm going to bw voting, and I'll be writing postcards to send out to get people to vote. That's the best option, no doubt.
But as my dad has always said: "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst."
Good man! Just be prepared to weather the absolute chaos that could ensue regardless of whatever comes to be. I genuinely hope, for all of our sakes, that none of the worst-case scenarios I've imagined come to pass, to say nothing of the truly unthinkable.
Thanks for this. Agreed. I was attracted at first to this sub when I initially heard about P2025 because it highlighted the dangerousness of the manifesto, but lately it’s been such panic and fear and bluster. From fleeing to nonchalantly discussing armed violence to embracing authoritarianism as long as it’s a Democrat. All of those avenues are wonderful ammunition for MAGA propagandists 🤷♂️
They are not a "very vocal minority "and you would be amazed at folks who while they aren't flying giant flags on pick up trucks absolutely are going to vote for him. I am shocked,,like totally at some people I know who are supporting this nutbob
First, they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
This might be relevant here
It’s very relevant. I’m a trans person and I know I’m in the community they’ll most likely come for first. Maybe second to political opponents. I also know that people who talk a big game about doing something aren’t going to do shit. Trans allies and anti-trans people are often equally as distrustful. Anti-trans people are at least forthcoming and you know what you’re getting, but it’s the allies who are snakes in the grass and betray. Probably the best thing I can do is leave sooner than later, because that line for too late to go is going to be very thin and possibly undetectable.
What should we do and where should we go? I have a trans loved one and now people are saying maybe even Europe isn't safe. I'm feeling very lost on where to look for information.
Even if I had the means to emigrate, I feel like almost every country will be affected by the downfall of US democracy in some way.
There's nowhere to really run to, so we stay and fight back. They want us to be afraid and unsure of ourselves, it's well-past time to organize and unify the working class. If this doesn't get people off the couch, idk what will.
>*MAGA is just an extremely vocal minority.* We need to stop acting like normal people are in these little tiny pockets of like 5 individuals in a sea of billions of Nazis. That's just not even remotely the case. They *do not* have the manpower to enforce any of this.
Except that's not true. They may be the minority, but the events of the past few days have shown us that they are a very powerful minority, and they can and will do everything they say they want to do.
I think we are all traumatized from 2016, no one seriously thought Trump would win until he did. However I think we should all remember that he never won the popular vote even then. And I am tentatively hopeful we are in a better spot now than we were in 2016.
I think our biggest concern is republicans undermining the voting system. They've been trying to for years. Will they succeed this time? America's worst game show!!!
I was an expat living in Moscow when Trump was elected, and one of my biggest frustrations was not being able to DO anything.
Couldn't participate in US political protests and I certainly didn't have any say in Russia. I was in Russia when they decriminalized domestic abuse and there's nothing I can do. Totally ineffectual in both the US and Russia.
We stay, and we fight because if you flee to another country, it's a matter of time before this conservative wave hits there. Many countries are leaning right. It's not just the US, and you can't outrun it. So we stay where we can be the most effective and fight it from the inside.
On one hand - I have no plans to flee at the moment. Not just because I want to stay, but also because I could not afford it without help from my folks, and I will not do that.
With that said, if there are minorities who feel they are in danger with a second Trump term, I will not judge them for fleeing. And depending on how PA remains on trans rights I might start eyeing up a sanctuary state.
Look at the number of people that didn’t vote in 2020 (this is from Pew Research) and ask yourself, is there any way I can reach out to those people that I know who may be uninformed or apathetic to get them to vote blue:
“More Americans voted in 2020 than in any other presidential election in 120 years. About 67% of eligible voters cast ballots this year, but that still means a third did not.
That amounts to about 80 million people who stayed home.”
You shouldn't shame people who are desperate and scared. Not everyone has resources and in material circumstances where they can afford to fight for every last breath so that Trump and the GOP don't get back in full power.
You don't get to tell people about their own lives and what they need to do and sacrifice for to make you feel better about our current ongoing political disasters. This is supposed to be a supportive place not meant for shaming. The most vulnerable need protecting/support and they won't be able to offer some of that same energy back. Would you really be the type of person to hold it over their head?
And tons of POC, disabled, and queer folks have been fighting our entire lives. Just because the cul-de-sac liberals are finally waking up, doesn’t mean they can sacrifice the most vulnerable who have already been doing their part!
I’m gay & in a wheelchair. If there’s some armed engagement or people have to flee, I can’t physically do that. That’s a very different kind of vulnerability.
Jews should’ve stayed to fight? Was their escape “selfish”?
What often happens in these situations: authorities are violent and instill so much fear in the population that people who swore to defend the targeted look away for fear anything more will invite scrutiny and endanger themselves. Neighbors begin turning in neighbors. Survival instincts kick in & the targets on some grow inescapably large.
The people who are scared are the people who are going to be hunted by the government and any of their cult followers.
Trans and Queer folk have reason to be scared. It's hard to fight back when the person who's fighting you has more man-power and quite literally wants you dead.
Although I do agree that fighting back is the whole point of this subreddit - don't shit on those who are scared.
I want citizenship for reasons like travel curiosity because my family has some but I would still like to stay here in general.
For one, it is hard to immediately move and settle elsewhere. Plus the USA will cause other places to become fascist, look at Italy, France, The Netherlands, and even Germany. The Nazis are back and we have to push back.
You’re 100% right that we should be fighting against American fascism, not running and hiding, but to those who may still be thinking about running and giving up, let me give you some food for thought.
Trump gets elected and U.S. falls into fascism. The value of the U.S. dollar immediately plummets. The [entire global economy](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/22/1177570119/a-look-at-some-of-the-consequences-if-the-u-s-defaults-on-its-debt) is based on the reliability of the U.S. dollar. It is not an exaggeration to say that the global economy would crumble. There is no country on earth you could immigrate to that would be safe from that.
Let’s play out some other possibilities. Where would most liberal-minded Americans want to go? Canada, Europe, Asia? [Canada](https://www.csis.org/analysis/canada-urgently-needs-rethink-its-national-security-strategy) and [Europe](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4459201-nato-allies-fear-repercussions-trump-reelection/) rely on U.S. military funding for their national security. [Democracies in the Pacific](https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2024/03/14/pacific-leaders-say-they-need-more-funding-to-compete-with-china/) (like Japan, South Korea, Australia, and NZ) rely on U.S. military support to deter China.
You could go to the Middle East or Africa, ahh, but wait, U.S. foreign aid supports and stabilizes [MENA and African economies](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s), and that’s not even taking into account the [huge amounts of foreign aid](https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/dec-15-2022-united-states-provide-2-billion-humanitarian-assistance-people-africa) that helps prevent famines in those regions.
I don’t cite all of this to praise how great America is. I have a lot of problems with these policies. But this is the cold stark reality. There is no escaping a second Trump term, not even if you flee to the other side of the planet.
Oh hell no. I'm Jewish. I'm not gonna be marched into a cattle car just so I can prove my patriotism. The "reasonable" Christians can fight it out with the Christofascists. It's not fair to ask me to hang around and hope for the best.
I understand the point of this and I saw your other comment on this where you clarified your queer, so think of this as one queer person talking to another one. I understand that you don’t want us to just look like cowards that flee at the first sign of danger, but in this case. I don’t think it’s fair to shame people for being scared and wanting to flee when it’s fleeing from potentially living in a country with a president that wants ayou dead or at least wants to strip all of the rights he can away from you.
You’re right in that there is no perfect safe haven for us queer people but frankly, I don’t think that really matters here and I think most queer people are aware that no place is 100% accepting of them. It’s just that for a lot of us, most places are probably gonna be better than living here. Even with the possibility that other countries will probably follow in the US’s footsteps.
I understand your point, we shouldn’t just flee, we should fight. But…I think in this scenario if it does come down to Trump getting reelected, I think it’s completely fair to go ‘fuck it I’m out.’
As a Canada-U.S. citizen (U.S. born & raised by green card Canadian parents, all but 3 of my extended family lives in Ontario), seeing Americans with no ties to Canada post about moving there is kinda cringey ngl
The Christofascists are up there too, make no mistake. And Tories are sounding more like American GOP psychos day by day
https://www.reddit.com/r/NorwegianGoatFarm/s/lwy2e16jAD
Anyone interested in moving to a goat farm in Norway is welcome to organise themselves here and begin their new life in Norway asap.
But be warned, it is expensive, you will have to apply for a residency permit, there are lots of other people also looking to emigrate/seek asylum to Norway, goat farming isn’t a big industry, you’d be better trying to find work in oil or maybe robotics and of course although they can speak English they will eventually expect you to learn speak Norwegian 🇳🇴
Also it’s cold and the winter can last 6 months and in northern parts the the winter nights last like 20 hours plus
https://www.norwayexcursions.com/en/tour/geiranger-private-the-traditional-herdal-goat-farm/
https://www.norden.org/en/info-norden/guide-moving-norway#:~:text=If%20you%20come%20from%20a,before%20you%20move%20to%20Norway.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Norway
Russia China Iran
Want to distract us.
They are sending us into a civil conflict.
While we are busy Russia will take Ukraine. China will take Taiwan. Iran removes Israel off the board. Europe goes to war. No where is safe.
Act accordingly.
Of course, the civil conflict they get won't be the one they're expecting because the democrats are spineless. It will instead come when the evangelicals try to purge the Catholics.
I think it depends on who you are. If trans people or gay people (especially if they have kids that might get taken away) want to leave the US, I'm not going to be mad at them for doing so. There're also people that Trump has vowed revenge on, media commentators, various political figures, etc. who may need to leave to protect themselves.
Daughter of the American Revolution here. I’m not leaving. My family didn’t fight King George and the British Empire for me to just give up democracy because things got rough.
I will earn my spot in Valhalla.
Thank you! 👏
I made a similar post over the weekend. We need to stand together through this. If the US falls to this bigoted nonsense, it won't stop there. This is still one of the safest countries for trans people. Before you flee the whole continent, consider moving to a more tolerant state. The more of us there are to band together and live openly in peace, the better our chances for survival and acceptance at large.
I'm not talking about superficial "pick me" acceptance. I mean normalizing our existence for people who just don't know any trans people yet. It's a powerful thing to be seen, and even more powerful to be seen around others who accept you. We need more of that. So don't flee the country, flee your shitty states and come to the places where trans people are more accepted.
Obviously... That's the entire point of the subreddit. It does none of us any good to continue perpetuating fear about a future that hasn't happened yet. We have freedom NOW. We have rights NOW. We shouldn't take that for granted. Use them and be visible, talk to people, volunteer, vote, organize, protest and make people aware.
I'm trans. I understand.
I still don't think it's productive to be constantly reminded in this subreddit. It's doom preaching to the choir. We're all here for the same reason, to defeat project 2025. So let's focus on that and offer encouragement and solutions instead of spreading demoralizing fear and pessimism.
Nah screw that I’m doing what’s best for my family and moving to the EU. Yeah the far right is gaining popularity there but at least I won’t get shot. I’ll root for you guys though from the sidelines
Honestly, fuck off with this. People are scared. It's a valid response.
All of your points about the difficulty of moving to another country, the existence of a safer country, etc are correct. But your message is absolutely disgusting. I'm Jewish and disabled. My fiancée is trans and disabled. We are both poor and in a same-sex relationship. Are we going to be able to move to another country? Almost certainly not. But I've definitely looked into it A BUNCH. I've definitely tried to untangle knots in my mind to desperately try to make it work with lack of funds.
There is already enough shame going around from the people who want to kill us or enslave us. We don't need it from you, APPARENTLY ALSO A QUEER PERSON, up on your high horse too. Not to mention shame doesn't even work.
If your goal is to try and persuade people to stay, fine. Write a persuasive post. But don't fucking shame people. Shame does not work. There are tons of studies showing it doesn't. You know what works? Making people feel empowered and hopeful. Maybe try that for a change. Because all you're doing now is beating people down who are already beaten down.
Sooo... don't you think you'd fall under the "people who need others around to fight for them" category? You're deciding to put yourself in the "stay and fight" group, even though I deliberately worded it to include the fact that there are some people that don't have the means or ability to fight. I'm clearly talking to *those that can,* because there are a lot, even if that number doesn't include you or anyone you know.
You're taking this the way you want to, not remotely the way I said it. So, kindly get out of here with pleasure with telling me to fuck off for *me* saying that a long line of protestors and agitators should continue to have protestors and agitators. You're the one taking this as a personal attack when it literally excluded you. You're in other comments absolutely horrified and dumbfounded that others actually want to fight for their right to exist even though *you* and *your* loved ones can't, totally ignoring that I'm actually telling the ones that *can* fight that *we* need to protect people like *you.*
Literally quoted it in my last comment, and it's basically a whole paragraph of my original comment.
"People who need others around to fight for them."
Also when I said, "Yeah, there are people who can't fight."
'Can't fight' is an absolute. You said you and your partner fall into that category. You exist, so you're *outside* the group of people I'm talking about that *do* need to stay and fight. You're *in* the group of people who need the fighting group to exist to be able to keep your rights.
As I said in my last comment, just because *you're* LGBT and *you* can't fight back doesn't mean that others can't or shouldn't, and the overarcing portrayal of LGBT people as defenseless targets is insulting, historically illiterate, and objectively not true, hence the hundreds of other comments of people who are capable of staying and fighting *and* the actual real life history of the LGBT movement.
edit: also, do I really need to say disclaimer: u/i-contain-multitudes and others in their situation are exempt from physically protesting? Isn't that just implied when I say "people need to fight" and you're someone who can't physically fight? I'm not arguing bullshit semantics with you, there's an existential crisis to the entire LGBT movement and you're going to sit there and type at me because I'm rude for saying that people need to fight back? Why are you even on this sub? This isn't supposed to be about fun wacky solutions, this is supposed to be about people getting off their collective asses and fixing shit before being queer becomes illegal. Do you not understand the stakes here?
>Sooo... don't you think you'd fall under the "people who need others around to fight for them" category? You're deciding to put yourself in the "stay and fight" group, even though I deliberately worded it to include the fact that there are some people that don't have the means or ability to fight. I'm clearly talking to *those that can,* because there are a lot, even if that number doesn't include you or anyone you know.
>You're taking this the way you want to, not remotely the way I said it. So, kindly get out of here with pleasure with telling me to fuck off for *me* saying that a long line of protestors and agitators should continue to have protestors and agitators. You're the one taking this as a personal attack when it literally excluded you.
WHERE did you create two groups of people? In your post, you did not distinguish.
>You're in other comments absolutely horrified and dumbfounded that others actually want to fight for their right to exist
Again, WHERE? Quote me being "horrified and dumbfounded that others... want to fight"
>As I said in my last comment, just because *you're* LGBT and *you* can't fight back doesn't mean that others can't or shouldn't,
Never said they can't or shouldn't. That is coming from your own brain.
>and the overarcing portrayal of LGBT people as defenseless targets is insulting, historically illiterate, and objectively not true
Great, glad I literally never said anything like this, then!
>edit: also, do I really need to say disclaimer: u/i-contain-multitudes and others in their situation are exempt from physically protesting?
Yes. You do. Because you said "shame on some of you" and did not specify who. Shaming people who are afraid for their rights is unconscionable and I would think that you would want to avoid that at all costs.
>Isn't that just implied when I say "people need to fight" and you're someone who can't physically fight?
No, it's really not. It seems implied to you because you're in your own brain. But to me, you're just a random internet commenter who starts off hostile and stays hostile.
>Why are you even on this sub? This isn't supposed to be about fun wacky solutions, this is supposed to be about people getting off their collective asses and fixing shit before being queer becomes illegal. Do you not understand the stakes here?
Good thing I NEVER TALKED ABOUT FUN WACKY SOLUTIONS, then, huh? So glad we are on the same page about that.
So much of the shit you are accusing me of is from your own goddamn brain. Check yourself before you start accusing me of shit I didn't do.
I just said I'm not here to argue semantics, yet that's all you want to talk about. You're the only person here needing things to be spelled out literally. I'm not even remotely willing to waste my time explaining how every single implication in every single statement adds up to mean something, because that's absolutely ridiculous.
You do not at all seem to grasp the situation this post was actually bringing up, which is the need to physically fight back, so all I'm going to get if I keep replying is just notifications of you going "I didn't EXPLICITLY say that!!" or "You didn't EXACTLY say that I'm personally excluded!!"
So, back to the *actual fucking issue,* **this is an existential crisis for both the country, the entire global LGBT community, and by extension the global community in general,** and instead of pertinent things that we could be disagreeing on, like the methods of how to stop what's happening or something actually useful, you're grading my verbage on comments that apparently got deleted anyway. This is absolutely nonsensical, so I'm done with it.
I don't get paid to comment. It's not my job to make sure every single person on the planet has their specific roles neatly outlined in everything I say. You can use context clues or common sense. If you can understand Project 2025, you should be more than able to understand those.
Lol, you call it arguing semantics, but we are using language to communicate. "Arguing semantics" (I would say it's arguing rhetoric, but that would be arguing semantics) is what we are all doing in comments and posts every time we type them. You want to talk out your ass about me and then say that me saying "I never said that" is arguing semantics. It's a laughable defense of someone who doesn't have a leg to stand on.
If that's nonsensical to you, I'm sorry.
Also keep in mind, as the US goes, so (frequently) goes much of the rest of the developed world. The US exerts disproportionate influence over attitudes and policies overseas.
If you flee the US in search of a more accepting home, you may find the same awful philosophies coming to your new home in a few decades.
I’m Canadian and I would say come here but we have only another year before our Conservative Party probably comes to power and ruins everything here, causing further division and leading to the collapse of the through the separation of Quebec (which as someone from Quebec seems like it will happen)
Hate to break it to you pack up and leavers, but nowhere is going to be safe. Every other nuke power is backsliding. Those without nukes will be closing their borders and deporting because they’ll want to preserve their social programs. Unlike them, we could actually reverse course.
Thank you for this post. I’m in a group chat with a bunch of people who said this and I was like “Oh yea it’s great for people who can afford to leave. I guess I should start a go-fund-me” and they changed the subject real quick.
THANK YOU. I’m sick of the “I’m running away to Ireland” sentiment. Most people can’t feasibly up and leave the country. It’s a lot harder than people think. And besides, this is MY country too. I’m just as American as anyone else, and I’m going to fight for myself as well as the friends and family I have here. I’m not going to abandon my loved ones to save my own skin.
https://preview.redd.it/43lx0lpsx1ad1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26a4ad18737642e1bed2a69f821eb3a85190037e
Why, Reddit, I do believe that’s an excellent question. Apparently our love for whatever it is we love in the US outweighs our love of Norwegian goats. But it’s a close thing, I tell you.
Until then, I’m gonna BE a stubborn goat right there fuck here. Way to go, OP.
Before the Internet and specifically social media, it was hard to hear about these shitheads. They were generally limited to organizing local events and printing out pamphlets at Kinko’s.
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Alaska
I feel like Alaska is far enough away from the mainland that if civil war broke out Alaskans would just keep doing what they've already been doing.
Except for the prospect of Russia invading...
Hard agree. The "Which country should I flee to" posts only make me start feeling the doom and gloom. Yes, things are scary but we're not in the exact same circumstances as nazi Germany or Gilead or whatever. They can **try** to do their little project 2025, but given how incompetent they were during covid and the fact that they are most certainly a minority I just don't see it happening without heavy *heavy* backlash coming their way. You can only push people so much before they push back.
Them trying to push their brand of Christianity isn't going to fly easily in my opinion. We're a damn melting pot. We have people of all cultures here and there are even many different sects of their own religion that would condemn them. There are even republicans who aren't okay with this. I just don't see them pulling all of this shit off without having to answer to the majority.
Edit: Also I don't see how some of these ridiculous policies they want to pass wouldn't hurt the economy and likely piss more people off.
If the economy goes to shit, I mean REALLY to shit, I think a lot of people will be shaken out of their indifference. And assuming we still have elections, which I have doubts about, that would be the end of Trump.
Honestly I hate this idea that lgbt people and other minorities that will be at risk are cowards for not wanting to be eradicated. Sorry I don’t want to spend the rest of my days being shot at by nazis, the police, and the fucking national guard
also, physically leaving (i.e. exile) doesn’t mean you are quitting. you can still vote in the upcoming election, organize, etc. from anywhere in the world if you’re eligible to vote in the US. it’s not wrong to stay. it’s not wrong to leave. we can do both
Fortify and shoot back. Or Fortify anyway and carry on. Or move, I guess. There are options
Saying this as someone who is queer as fuck and a very vocal trans ally
Exactly. There's a global shift to the right. I see these idiots talking about moving to places like Panama, Hungary, Turkey... as if those are beacons of democracy!
Well said. 330 million Americans. Only 75 million are anti-American. It's going to take ALL of us to save Democracy and the Constitution.
The Nazis only won 33% before being made Chancellor too - but the NSDAP had a shadow government in place, and quickly installed loyalists to every government position ... what Project set to launch in 2025 does that sound like?
That 75 million are much more organized, much more violence happy, and much more trained in weaponry on average than the rest of the population (assuming gun nuts are much more likely to be conservative and MAGA.) There are too many liberals that dare wont touch a gun, let alone be able to use it in any effective way.
Buy guns, liberals. Please. Now! You can store them responsibly! If gun regulations get passed, you can follow them. If it becomes illegal to own a type of gun you have, you can turn it in. You aren't giving up *anything* by arming yourself in the interim!
I’m worried that the vendors are going to start taking measures to avoid selling arms to “the other side.” The NRA will be involved. Watch.
Big box stores won't care.
Neither do gun shows
I dunno, I could totally imagine a scenario where a gun show guy refuses to sell to a guy wearing a dark brandon t-shirt.
Not just buy, but train together. You have to have the training to make sure that you will effectively be able to use it. Also check out r/liberalgunowners
Also, look for liberal gun clubs in your area. Pink Pistols have chapters in 33 states for LGBT gun owners.
Except that you're giving money to Trump campaign donors. The gun industry is the enemy.
Buy it 2nd hand, that way the funds are going to an average joe wanting to make some cash to pay for bills, rather than add funds to the pro-gun lobby. Exploit the loopholes. *(taps head)*
We bought guns at auction. I hate them ALL. I learned to shoot them. I hate it. I feel like I am learning to shoot my neighbors because that’s the only reason I bought the guns. I want to vomit. Yes I think I will go to that Norwegian goat farm because I just don’t want to shoot my neighbors even though they are fucking assholes. I just don’t think I can do it.
I have been shocked to hear how many family/ friends/ neighbors who have purchased and been training with weapons since 2016. However, since they range from Black, or Jewish or gay or Muslim, I understand why they did.
I bought a gun to protect my partners. One’s trans and the other is black and Jewish, and we’re all queer and polyamorous. I hate owning it and pray to God I’ll never have to use it, but with the way things are going in this country, I don’t want to take any chances. I love them and would lay down my life for them.
So we have very little time to prepare
We have half a year.
That is some uninformed speculation.
Don't underestimate these fucks. They will have paramilitary training. We have to match them.
Most have call of duty training along with the big sized meal deals
>much more violence happy, and much more trained in weaponry on average than the rest of the population I'd disagree on that completely.
I would too.
I'm sorry, but this is the way the Red Hats talk. What do you expect people to do in real terms? 75 millions is still a lot of people. And many of them have positions of significant power. There must be thousands of lawyers amongst them. And all the evidence suggests they're being legally prepped to the teeth. If they disrupt the election and get the SC to rule in their favour, what would you have people do? Storm the Court, j6 style? Hope newly minted King Biden will save us?
Huh? That's a weird rebuttal. GOP legal power is zero. That's why they have to cheat and buy people. That's why they need to change current law. That's why they want to rewrite the Constitution. Zero legal standing.
I agree with you but I think his point is that the other side will just SAY all the same reasons for doing what they do, and although it will be based on nonsense and lies, the only thing that will matter is whether people will believe it and commit violence to support it, not whether it's actually true.
This is a great point. Whatever they do, it doesn't have to be true, or legal, or watertight. It just has to stand up for a few weeks until January 20th. Unless it's maybe on election day, I'm not sure if we'll see a lot of violence. One thing that's not around so much this time is talk of militia and rebellion. We haven't had a stand back and stand by moment yet. All the rumours we seem to be hearing point back to the courts.
Guess you aren't listening. I have posted 3 different militia recruiting drives in the last month.
How do we combat the Supreme Court as it stands right now? Ideally (in my opinion) we'll eventually make those elected positions with term limits, but what can we do right now to combat the Supreme Court ruling against our rights? I'm genuinely asking, I don't know what a feasible solution would be in our current situation
How about Eileen Cannon and the SC 6? They certainly have legal standing. What about Bill Paxton, or Ash Moody? They have legal standing. The RNLA has chapters in every State, all with legal standing. The association lines them up with good Republican causes. The Heritage Foundation actually trains young lawyers through internships and a development program. Maybe their legal standing is vague, but somebody has to fetch coffee!
Except they own the highest court in the country. And several of the lower ones.
Bad Bot!
The Right Wing has been playing the long game for 50 years and is extremely organized. Conservatives by nature are highly order oriented and hierarchal which gives them an advantage in planning and execution.
Is that an accurate number? I would think it's smaller given that the dumbasses got some of their own base killed off from covid. Like, they aren't even smart enough to keep their own base alive...
Agree. Also it is way harder to immigrate to another country than most people will lead you to believe
100000%. My husband and I looked into it one day.... a lot harder than it seems.
Yeah, I'm disabled. I can't go anywhere lol.
You’re exactly right. If you’re just formulating a plan to leave the country now, you’re way too late. You should have started the planning years ago. As a Canadian citizen it’s amusing the number of people who think they can just pack up and move to Canada. It’s very difficult and it takes years to obtain citizenship
We immigrated to Canada when I was 9. And then to US when I was 16. I don’t know much about what we had to do but I do know that it takes years of planning and obtaining the necessary approvals to be able to immigrate. And you also have to have appealing for them to accept you, like be able to contribute to the society and pay taxes. It’s not cheap.
It's not like Canada is much safer anyway.
It absolutely is. I'm working on moving countries, but it's something I've worked towards for years with a multitude of personal reasons. I still debate things that come up, and I know it'll just increase once I'm moving. For most people, becoming an immigrant for only one primary reason of emigrating will make the journey all the more difficult, based on what I've seen. I will say, though, that moving and fighting aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not someone who can be front lines (health), but I've been involved in organizing, spreading information, and background work fighting. I'll continue that regardless of where I live. It's important for Americans to be involved with the fight whether or not they live in the US.
May get downvoted for this but I am an American that is now living in Europe. It is difficult to immigrate to another developed country, I was able to do so only because I have a STEM PhD without being old enough to be a burden on the healthcare system (many countries have a points system that will make you lose points even if you are still in your 30s). You usually need a job to get a VISA to live in a country for an extended period of time and it's just not realistic for a large majority of people. Countries that hire on a VISA usually need to justify that they can't find the skillset or people they need in their own country so less specialized positions or positions that aren't in very high demand can't just move country. Even if you have a skill there's a language barrier where they still might not take you if you only know English as many Americans do. You can look at the sub r/IWantOut and most posts are just getting eviscerated for being unrealistic about being able to move countries.
Agreed. I can understand anxiety and I get that it's hard when people have no irl group to offer support, but ideally I'd like to see a "scream into the void" weekly thread for all the panicking to be contained and for less anxious members to talk others down. And for heaven's sake, the "why not a third party" and "it's over folks" posts need to get jettisoned outta here.
I wish those posts were scrubbed from multiple SM threads. They don’t help anyone except trumpers. They are laughing their heads off right now at how panicked liberals are, as they vote for their felon rapist insurrectionist. It’s sick, and I hate to feed it. I also understand the anxiety, I do. I haven’t been able to sleep well since last week. But I’m more determined than ever to not shut up or shut down.
Yeah I'm honestly hoping I can flee, not because I want to leave others behind, but because I don't want to be killed or worse. Given I am queer, AFAB, and I don't present as white despite being mostly white that may happen to me if this stuff happens. I just finished my first year of college man I just want to be able to continue college, get my first apartment, maybe find a nice girl, finally get that first job I've been working so hard for, finally learn how to drive and learn that all of that may be thrown out the window within the next year? fucking devasting. I feel like fear for my life and everything I have worked so hard to get is reasonable at this point. I'm hoping trump doesn't get voted in, but realistically if I can't leave there is very little that can ensure my survival or that worse things won't happen to me if I am unable to leave, my family is a bunch of trump supporters, my friends are the same age as me and don't have that many resources. I don't know what to do at this point. I mean I'm just a young art major who is unarmed and doesn't have experience with firearms, what on earth am I supposed to do to fight back if worst comes to worst?
They want you to feel like it's hopeless because that means they have beaten you before they even needed to fight you. Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.
Nothing wrong with feeling hopeless as long as you go vote!
I ain’t fleeing I am fighting
Same here and I am eligible for citizenship in two other countries
These posts are even more stupid because it’s ridiculously difficult to move to a different country as an American, unless you have a relative that you can stay with.
Or if you are a dual national already.
Hear, hear. The fight against fascism is a global fight (e.g., France, Canada, Australia, Italy, etc.). Expatriating progressives may be fleeing the frying pan in the U.S. only to find themselves in the fire overseas. (Edited for clarity.)
I just don’t understand how people can forget what fascism is and what it does to everything people hope for. We have very good historical examples of this. Has half the population become stupid?
Yes, it's insane. 😔
I specifically feel it is my duty to stay and fight. For sure I can understand to a degree a trans person fleeing (much like the Jewish people fleeing Nazi germany) but I personally am in a position to stay and fight. Not going anywhere.
Thanks for saying this. As an lgbt person I was taken back by this blanket statement
I’m trans and disabled. It’s rough.
Same. I’m gay & disabled. All the talk of “fighting” & arming? I can barely stand. Some of us are significantly more vulnerable. In the event of a crisis where people have to literally run for their lives, evacuate an area, I’m not physically able to do that. You don’t see many photos of refugees in wheelchairs in the mass of people fleeing war-torn countries. Some of us have much bigger targets on our backs.
Yeah, I may not be disabled, but I'm an unarmed art major who has only shot a gun once, wtf am I supposed to do to fight??
Right exactly! You don’t see photos bc sadly we’re already causalities. We will be the first to go but we need to StAy aNd FiGhT
Honestly OP can fuck right off with the personal attacks. I'm Jewish and disabled, my fiancee is trans and disabled, and we're in a same sex relationship. If this is what this subreddit is - attacking people for trying to avoid genocide - I'm not fucking staying subscribed to it.
Literally couldn’t have said this better! The wife and I are also a gay disabled couple. I feel for you. Like why the fuck would we stay? I’m so disgusted by this rhetoric and all the comments agreeing.
Unfortunately, a lot, or most, of trans people are going to be unable to flee. We're disproportionately affected by poverty and homelessness, and that makes it hard to get the funds for getting citizenship in another country or moving anywhere. There's this phrase that the same $20 dollar bill is floating around all over the trans community, because trans people often need money and donations for survival or safety, and it's usually trans people donating to them, while having very little money as well.
I'm a trans woman, and all I can think when I see people saying they want to flee I just want to know where to. Because what's happening in the US is happening in a lot of places. We either stay and fight or we get herded into a smaller and smaller corner and exterminated when we are all together. History tells us how this story goes. If we choose not to fight now there may not be a tomorrow to fight for.
I’m Black, female, highly educated and 50. Fighting is in my blood & where the hell would I go anyway? Let’s do this, damn it.
I'm right there with ya sister. Let's put the boots to these fascist assholes
This is what I was trying to say in a thread earlier. The doomerism I've been seeing since last week is, frankly, sickening. People are acting like it's already over before it's even happened, and then also acting like, if we lose the election, it's the end of the world and there's no hope and resistance is futile, because the US will become The Handmaid's Tale over night and anyone protesting will be gunned down, and you won't be able to even escape the country, and you'll be rounded up and sent to a camp. At this point I have to wonder if it's a PsyOp meant to spread defeatism so people will be too beaten down and demoralized if the election is lost that they won't be able to resist. Well, that's not the reality I want to live in. And that's not the future I'm going to have. Not without a fight.
I'm still voting but can we be a little real here? let's not pretend the doomerism and acting like we've already lost after scotus said that trump is above the law isn't well beyond warranted. yes, sadly, we did just lose, the Democrats are never in a million years going to make the reformations necessary to stop the dictatorship the next inevitable GOP candidate is going to bring, we can't even get Biden to pack the courts when he's literally already allowed to. max, we have 4 years *maybe* to undo the decades of damage the GOP has caused and I just do not see that ever happening
I'm not American nor much of a political scholar, but I've been playing this out in my head and would like to give my 2 cents' worth. You would need a MASSIVE landslide victory for Biden to have a chance at breaking through any attempts to hand Trump victory on legal technicality, which have already been described on this sub by more qualified persons. In the event these efforts succeed or even threaten to do so, two things could happen, neither of them good. Firstly, people might attempt a general strike to coerce the government, which is easier said than done with the moribund state of unionism nowadays, and would paralyse America regardless. Secondly, Blue states like California may buck federal authority and threaten secession in order to protect themselves and political refugees sheltering in them, inviting a second American Civil War. President Lincoln's words about divided houses are still relevant, and this would also be disastrous for military allies like NATO who might still have cajoled aid from a mercurial Trump administration. Even with their power as the most productive and populated states, it would likely be an uphill fight against geographical divisions, and Red states backed by Federal forces and most of the Military-IC, which would naturally incline towards the side of deregulation (ditto for the Petroleum-IC). If things go truly pear-shaped, we may see new guidelines written about nuclear deterrents in a domestic theatre given the distribution of the country's arsenal and increasing irrationality in office ('let's blow up a hurricane!'). Of course, there's the wild-card of Biden cutting the Gordian knot and purging all his enemies, but we all know how likely that is and the awful precedent that would set. So in summation, I'd restate and recommend the obvious choice of voting for your lives, if you don't want to take this fight beyond the ballot-box.
Oh, believe me, I'm going to bw voting, and I'll be writing postcards to send out to get people to vote. That's the best option, no doubt. But as my dad has always said: "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst."
Good man! Just be prepared to weather the absolute chaos that could ensue regardless of whatever comes to be. I genuinely hope, for all of our sakes, that none of the worst-case scenarios I've imagined come to pass, to say nothing of the truly unthinkable.
Look at the way r/politics is now. Someone tell me what's going on? I hate it and I can't look away. I'd like to lock myself out of it lol.
lol. I was perm banned. I don’t miss it.
In 15 minutes the tone changed as if it's a whole different set of commenters.
Some people are really touchy.
Thanks for this. Agreed. I was attracted at first to this sub when I initially heard about P2025 because it highlighted the dangerousness of the manifesto, but lately it’s been such panic and fear and bluster. From fleeing to nonchalantly discussing armed violence to embracing authoritarianism as long as it’s a Democrat. All of those avenues are wonderful ammunition for MAGA propagandists 🤷♂️
Yes a lot of the people spreading defeatism have accounts made in the last couple months full of defeatist comments
THANK YOU! I've been thinking that for weeks. They're trying to break us.
They are not a "very vocal minority "and you would be amazed at folks who while they aren't flying giant flags on pick up trucks absolutely are going to vote for him. I am shocked,,like totally at some people I know who are supporting this nutbob
First, they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. This might be relevant here
It’s very relevant. I’m a trans person and I know I’m in the community they’ll most likely come for first. Maybe second to political opponents. I also know that people who talk a big game about doing something aren’t going to do shit. Trans allies and anti-trans people are often equally as distrustful. Anti-trans people are at least forthcoming and you know what you’re getting, but it’s the allies who are snakes in the grass and betray. Probably the best thing I can do is leave sooner than later, because that line for too late to go is going to be very thin and possibly undetectable.
The last sentence is the most relevant and most chilling.
That sums up how I feel, too.
Helping vulnerable people such as trans people evacuate the country is absolutely an important response
What should we do and where should we go? I have a trans loved one and now people are saying maybe even Europe isn't safe. I'm feeling very lost on where to look for information.
Thank you. I’m trans and disabled. It’s rough.
Unless other countries start providing asylum, some of us aren't going to be able to leave.
Even if I had the means to emigrate, I feel like almost every country will be affected by the downfall of US democracy in some way. There's nowhere to really run to, so we stay and fight back. They want us to be afraid and unsure of ourselves, it's well-past time to organize and unify the working class. If this doesn't get people off the couch, idk what will.
>*MAGA is just an extremely vocal minority.* We need to stop acting like normal people are in these little tiny pockets of like 5 individuals in a sea of billions of Nazis. That's just not even remotely the case. They *do not* have the manpower to enforce any of this. Except that's not true. They may be the minority, but the events of the past few days have shown us that they are a very powerful minority, and they can and will do everything they say they want to do.
I think we are all traumatized from 2016, no one seriously thought Trump would win until he did. However I think we should all remember that he never won the popular vote even then. And I am tentatively hopeful we are in a better spot now than we were in 2016.
I think our biggest concern is republicans undermining the voting system. They've been trying to for years. Will they succeed this time? America's worst game show!!!
I wish the popular vote mattered. 😭
I was an expat living in Moscow when Trump was elected, and one of my biggest frustrations was not being able to DO anything. Couldn't participate in US political protests and I certainly didn't have any say in Russia. I was in Russia when they decriminalized domestic abuse and there's nothing I can do. Totally ineffectual in both the US and Russia. We stay, and we fight because if you flee to another country, it's a matter of time before this conservative wave hits there. Many countries are leaning right. It's not just the US, and you can't outrun it. So we stay where we can be the most effective and fight it from the inside.
This needs to be pinned to the top.
also canadas about to elect a far right guy too so don't get your hopes up coming here. really nowhere is safe.
I agree. Please stay and fight for your fellow Americans!
On one hand - I have no plans to flee at the moment. Not just because I want to stay, but also because I could not afford it without help from my folks, and I will not do that. With that said, if there are minorities who feel they are in danger with a second Trump term, I will not judge them for fleeing. And depending on how PA remains on trans rights I might start eyeing up a sanctuary state.
I have a trans daughter and she is so afraid of what will happen. I’ve never seen the way they demonize trans people on the right.
Look at the number of people that didn’t vote in 2020 (this is from Pew Research) and ask yourself, is there any way I can reach out to those people that I know who may be uninformed or apathetic to get them to vote blue: “More Americans voted in 2020 than in any other presidential election in 120 years. About 67% of eligible voters cast ballots this year, but that still means a third did not. That amounts to about 80 million people who stayed home.”
You shouldn't shame people who are desperate and scared. Not everyone has resources and in material circumstances where they can afford to fight for every last breath so that Trump and the GOP don't get back in full power.
For real some of us are disabled! Some of us are minorities!
And I'm both! Half Mexican and half white and autistic.
Try being a mexican jewish trans woman with Asperger’s.
thank you. exactly.
Selfish excuses. Everyone has something they can offer to resist.
You don't get to tell people about their own lives and what they need to do and sacrifice for to make you feel better about our current ongoing political disasters. This is supposed to be a supportive place not meant for shaming. The most vulnerable need protecting/support and they won't be able to offer some of that same energy back. Would you really be the type of person to hold it over their head?
And tons of POC, disabled, and queer folks have been fighting our entire lives. Just because the cul-de-sac liberals are finally waking up, doesn’t mean they can sacrifice the most vulnerable who have already been doing their part!
I’m gay & in a wheelchair. If there’s some armed engagement or people have to flee, I can’t physically do that. That’s a very different kind of vulnerability. Jews should’ve stayed to fight? Was their escape “selfish”? What often happens in these situations: authorities are violent and instill so much fear in the population that people who swore to defend the targeted look away for fear anything more will invite scrutiny and endanger themselves. Neighbors begin turning in neighbors. Survival instincts kick in & the targets on some grow inescapably large.
Thanks for the reality check! I needed it.
The people who are scared are the people who are going to be hunted by the government and any of their cult followers. Trans and Queer folk have reason to be scared. It's hard to fight back when the person who's fighting you has more man-power and quite literally wants you dead. Although I do agree that fighting back is the whole point of this subreddit - don't shit on those who are scared.
Where I leave and work Georgia, North Carolina and Florida MAGA is very much the majority! We don’t feel safe here.
Its the same in SC, and theyre pretty vocal about it
Can evacuation be our post-November Plan B?
I want citizenship for reasons like travel curiosity because my family has some but I would still like to stay here in general. For one, it is hard to immediately move and settle elsewhere. Plus the USA will cause other places to become fascist, look at Italy, France, The Netherlands, and even Germany. The Nazis are back and we have to push back.
You’re 100% right that we should be fighting against American fascism, not running and hiding, but to those who may still be thinking about running and giving up, let me give you some food for thought. Trump gets elected and U.S. falls into fascism. The value of the U.S. dollar immediately plummets. The [entire global economy](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/22/1177570119/a-look-at-some-of-the-consequences-if-the-u-s-defaults-on-its-debt) is based on the reliability of the U.S. dollar. It is not an exaggeration to say that the global economy would crumble. There is no country on earth you could immigrate to that would be safe from that. Let’s play out some other possibilities. Where would most liberal-minded Americans want to go? Canada, Europe, Asia? [Canada](https://www.csis.org/analysis/canada-urgently-needs-rethink-its-national-security-strategy) and [Europe](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4459201-nato-allies-fear-repercussions-trump-reelection/) rely on U.S. military funding for their national security. [Democracies in the Pacific](https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2024/03/14/pacific-leaders-say-they-need-more-funding-to-compete-with-china/) (like Japan, South Korea, Australia, and NZ) rely on U.S. military support to deter China. You could go to the Middle East or Africa, ahh, but wait, U.S. foreign aid supports and stabilizes [MENA and African economies](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s), and that’s not even taking into account the [huge amounts of foreign aid](https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/dec-15-2022-united-states-provide-2-billion-humanitarian-assistance-people-africa) that helps prevent famines in those regions. I don’t cite all of this to praise how great America is. I have a lot of problems with these policies. But this is the cold stark reality. There is no escaping a second Trump term, not even if you flee to the other side of the planet.
Oh hell no. I'm Jewish. I'm not gonna be marched into a cattle car just so I can prove my patriotism. The "reasonable" Christians can fight it out with the Christofascists. It's not fair to ask me to hang around and hope for the best.
My mom asked me, about 3-4 months ago, about where I'd go in the event of something like P2025. And...I honestly didn't have an answer for her.
I understand the point of this and I saw your other comment on this where you clarified your queer, so think of this as one queer person talking to another one. I understand that you don’t want us to just look like cowards that flee at the first sign of danger, but in this case. I don’t think it’s fair to shame people for being scared and wanting to flee when it’s fleeing from potentially living in a country with a president that wants ayou dead or at least wants to strip all of the rights he can away from you. You’re right in that there is no perfect safe haven for us queer people but frankly, I don’t think that really matters here and I think most queer people are aware that no place is 100% accepting of them. It’s just that for a lot of us, most places are probably gonna be better than living here. Even with the possibility that other countries will probably follow in the US’s footsteps. I understand your point, we shouldn’t just flee, we should fight. But…I think in this scenario if it does come down to Trump getting reelected, I think it’s completely fair to go ‘fuck it I’m out.’
As a Canada-U.S. citizen (U.S. born & raised by green card Canadian parents, all but 3 of my extended family lives in Ontario), seeing Americans with no ties to Canada post about moving there is kinda cringey ngl The Christofascists are up there too, make no mistake. And Tories are sounding more like American GOP psychos day by day
Fuck the Tories
You’re equating Americas situation to Canada?
Not precisely, but there’s no doubt in my mind that the right up there will take cues from down here. It always happens that way
https://www.reddit.com/r/NorwegianGoatFarm/s/lwy2e16jAD Anyone interested in moving to a goat farm in Norway is welcome to organise themselves here and begin their new life in Norway asap. But be warned, it is expensive, you will have to apply for a residency permit, there are lots of other people also looking to emigrate/seek asylum to Norway, goat farming isn’t a big industry, you’d be better trying to find work in oil or maybe robotics and of course although they can speak English they will eventually expect you to learn speak Norwegian 🇳🇴 Also it’s cold and the winter can last 6 months and in northern parts the the winter nights last like 20 hours plus https://www.norwayexcursions.com/en/tour/geiranger-private-the-traditional-herdal-goat-farm/ https://www.norden.org/en/info-norden/guide-moving-norway#:~:text=If%20you%20come%20from%20a,before%20you%20move%20to%20Norway. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Norway
Russia China Iran Want to distract us. They are sending us into a civil conflict. While we are busy Russia will take Ukraine. China will take Taiwan. Iran removes Israel off the board. Europe goes to war. No where is safe. Act accordingly.
Those are my fears also.
Of course, the civil conflict they get won't be the one they're expecting because the democrats are spineless. It will instead come when the evangelicals try to purge the Catholics.
I think it depends on who you are. If trans people or gay people (especially if they have kids that might get taken away) want to leave the US, I'm not going to be mad at them for doing so. There're also people that Trump has vowed revenge on, media commentators, various political figures, etc. who may need to leave to protect themselves.
Won’t change shit if we keep running away. We owe to ourselves and our people to fight back against the fascist tidal wave attempting to break us
Fuck yeah. That's the proper attitude to have. We didn't back down at Stonewall and we shouldn't back down now
Daughter of the American Revolution here. I’m not leaving. My family didn’t fight King George and the British Empire for me to just give up democracy because things got rough. I will earn my spot in Valhalla.
And many of us are veterans. My oath is still valid and binding on me. I will never abandon my Country and allow these traitors to steal our freedoms.
Thank you! 👏 I made a similar post over the weekend. We need to stand together through this. If the US falls to this bigoted nonsense, it won't stop there. This is still one of the safest countries for trans people. Before you flee the whole continent, consider moving to a more tolerant state. The more of us there are to band together and live openly in peace, the better our chances for survival and acceptance at large. I'm not talking about superficial "pick me" acceptance. I mean normalizing our existence for people who just don't know any trans people yet. It's a powerful thing to be seen, and even more powerful to be seen around others who accept you. We need more of that. So don't flee the country, flee your shitty states and come to the places where trans people are more accepted.
“This is still one of the safest countries for trans people.” That may be true for now, but Trump isn’t president yet. It could get very much worse.
Obviously... That's the entire point of the subreddit. It does none of us any good to continue perpetuating fear about a future that hasn't happened yet. We have freedom NOW. We have rights NOW. We shouldn't take that for granted. Use them and be visible, talk to people, volunteer, vote, organize, protest and make people aware.
I totally agree. But you should be able to understand the real fears trans people have about Trump getting back in the WH
I'm trans. I understand. I still don't think it's productive to be constantly reminded in this subreddit. It's doom preaching to the choir. We're all here for the same reason, to defeat project 2025. So let's focus on that and offer encouragement and solutions instead of spreading demoralizing fear and pessimism.
My trans daughter is in fear for her life if Trump is elected so I can understand that there is fear out there. Of course I will be doing what I can.
I feel really helpless so really what do we do besides vote? No one around me cares?
Always be prepared
100% this. So happy to see it worded so well.
My family's been in this country since the 1700s, I am not going anywhere. I stand and fight.
1600s here, I feel this.
Nah screw that I’m doing what’s best for my family and moving to the EU. Yeah the far right is gaining popularity there but at least I won’t get shot. I’ll root for you guys though from the sidelines
Please join the discord. We need all hands on deck if we’re gonna pull out of this safely. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/1CpRwzPrIp
The difference between Afghanistan and Ukraine is that the fighting age adults didn't run away when things got tough in the latter.
[удалено]
Honestly, fuck off with this. People are scared. It's a valid response. All of your points about the difficulty of moving to another country, the existence of a safer country, etc are correct. But your message is absolutely disgusting. I'm Jewish and disabled. My fiancée is trans and disabled. We are both poor and in a same-sex relationship. Are we going to be able to move to another country? Almost certainly not. But I've definitely looked into it A BUNCH. I've definitely tried to untangle knots in my mind to desperately try to make it work with lack of funds. There is already enough shame going around from the people who want to kill us or enslave us. We don't need it from you, APPARENTLY ALSO A QUEER PERSON, up on your high horse too. Not to mention shame doesn't even work. If your goal is to try and persuade people to stay, fine. Write a persuasive post. But don't fucking shame people. Shame does not work. There are tons of studies showing it doesn't. You know what works? Making people feel empowered and hopeful. Maybe try that for a change. Because all you're doing now is beating people down who are already beaten down.
Sooo... don't you think you'd fall under the "people who need others around to fight for them" category? You're deciding to put yourself in the "stay and fight" group, even though I deliberately worded it to include the fact that there are some people that don't have the means or ability to fight. I'm clearly talking to *those that can,* because there are a lot, even if that number doesn't include you or anyone you know. You're taking this the way you want to, not remotely the way I said it. So, kindly get out of here with pleasure with telling me to fuck off for *me* saying that a long line of protestors and agitators should continue to have protestors and agitators. You're the one taking this as a personal attack when it literally excluded you. You're in other comments absolutely horrified and dumbfounded that others actually want to fight for their right to exist even though *you* and *your* loved ones can't, totally ignoring that I'm actually telling the ones that *can* fight that *we* need to protect people like *you.*
Yeah, point to the part where you said it wasn't about "people like me."
Literally quoted it in my last comment, and it's basically a whole paragraph of my original comment. "People who need others around to fight for them." Also when I said, "Yeah, there are people who can't fight." 'Can't fight' is an absolute. You said you and your partner fall into that category. You exist, so you're *outside* the group of people I'm talking about that *do* need to stay and fight. You're *in* the group of people who need the fighting group to exist to be able to keep your rights. As I said in my last comment, just because *you're* LGBT and *you* can't fight back doesn't mean that others can't or shouldn't, and the overarcing portrayal of LGBT people as defenseless targets is insulting, historically illiterate, and objectively not true, hence the hundreds of other comments of people who are capable of staying and fighting *and* the actual real life history of the LGBT movement. edit: also, do I really need to say disclaimer: u/i-contain-multitudes and others in their situation are exempt from physically protesting? Isn't that just implied when I say "people need to fight" and you're someone who can't physically fight? I'm not arguing bullshit semantics with you, there's an existential crisis to the entire LGBT movement and you're going to sit there and type at me because I'm rude for saying that people need to fight back? Why are you even on this sub? This isn't supposed to be about fun wacky solutions, this is supposed to be about people getting off their collective asses and fixing shit before being queer becomes illegal. Do you not understand the stakes here?
Nope, not a quote with sufficient context since your comment got removed.
Read the edit, then.
>Sooo... don't you think you'd fall under the "people who need others around to fight for them" category? You're deciding to put yourself in the "stay and fight" group, even though I deliberately worded it to include the fact that there are some people that don't have the means or ability to fight. I'm clearly talking to *those that can,* because there are a lot, even if that number doesn't include you or anyone you know. >You're taking this the way you want to, not remotely the way I said it. So, kindly get out of here with pleasure with telling me to fuck off for *me* saying that a long line of protestors and agitators should continue to have protestors and agitators. You're the one taking this as a personal attack when it literally excluded you. WHERE did you create two groups of people? In your post, you did not distinguish. >You're in other comments absolutely horrified and dumbfounded that others actually want to fight for their right to exist Again, WHERE? Quote me being "horrified and dumbfounded that others... want to fight" >As I said in my last comment, just because *you're* LGBT and *you* can't fight back doesn't mean that others can't or shouldn't, Never said they can't or shouldn't. That is coming from your own brain. >and the overarcing portrayal of LGBT people as defenseless targets is insulting, historically illiterate, and objectively not true Great, glad I literally never said anything like this, then! >edit: also, do I really need to say disclaimer: u/i-contain-multitudes and others in their situation are exempt from physically protesting? Yes. You do. Because you said "shame on some of you" and did not specify who. Shaming people who are afraid for their rights is unconscionable and I would think that you would want to avoid that at all costs. >Isn't that just implied when I say "people need to fight" and you're someone who can't physically fight? No, it's really not. It seems implied to you because you're in your own brain. But to me, you're just a random internet commenter who starts off hostile and stays hostile. >Why are you even on this sub? This isn't supposed to be about fun wacky solutions, this is supposed to be about people getting off their collective asses and fixing shit before being queer becomes illegal. Do you not understand the stakes here? Good thing I NEVER TALKED ABOUT FUN WACKY SOLUTIONS, then, huh? So glad we are on the same page about that. So much of the shit you are accusing me of is from your own goddamn brain. Check yourself before you start accusing me of shit I didn't do.
I just said I'm not here to argue semantics, yet that's all you want to talk about. You're the only person here needing things to be spelled out literally. I'm not even remotely willing to waste my time explaining how every single implication in every single statement adds up to mean something, because that's absolutely ridiculous. You do not at all seem to grasp the situation this post was actually bringing up, which is the need to physically fight back, so all I'm going to get if I keep replying is just notifications of you going "I didn't EXPLICITLY say that!!" or "You didn't EXACTLY say that I'm personally excluded!!" So, back to the *actual fucking issue,* **this is an existential crisis for both the country, the entire global LGBT community, and by extension the global community in general,** and instead of pertinent things that we could be disagreeing on, like the methods of how to stop what's happening or something actually useful, you're grading my verbage on comments that apparently got deleted anyway. This is absolutely nonsensical, so I'm done with it. I don't get paid to comment. It's not my job to make sure every single person on the planet has their specific roles neatly outlined in everything I say. You can use context clues or common sense. If you can understand Project 2025, you should be more than able to understand those.
Lol, you call it arguing semantics, but we are using language to communicate. "Arguing semantics" (I would say it's arguing rhetoric, but that would be arguing semantics) is what we are all doing in comments and posts every time we type them. You want to talk out your ass about me and then say that me saying "I never said that" is arguing semantics. It's a laughable defense of someone who doesn't have a leg to stand on. If that's nonsensical to you, I'm sorry.
Also keep in mind, as the US goes, so (frequently) goes much of the rest of the developed world. The US exerts disproportionate influence over attitudes and policies overseas. If you flee the US in search of a more accepting home, you may find the same awful philosophies coming to your new home in a few decades.
I’m Canadian and I would say come here but we have only another year before our Conservative Party probably comes to power and ruins everything here, causing further division and leading to the collapse of the through the separation of Quebec (which as someone from Quebec seems like it will happen)
Thank you…
Hate to break it to you pack up and leavers, but nowhere is going to be safe. Every other nuke power is backsliding. Those without nukes will be closing their borders and deporting because they’ll want to preserve their social programs. Unlike them, we could actually reverse course.
Thank you for this post. I’m in a group chat with a bunch of people who said this and I was like “Oh yea it’s great for people who can afford to leave. I guess I should start a go-fund-me” and they changed the subject real quick.
THANK YOU. I’m sick of the “I’m running away to Ireland” sentiment. Most people can’t feasibly up and leave the country. It’s a lot harder than people think. And besides, this is MY country too. I’m just as American as anyone else, and I’m going to fight for myself as well as the friends and family I have here. I’m not going to abandon my loved ones to save my own skin.
https://preview.redd.it/43lx0lpsx1ad1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26a4ad18737642e1bed2a69f821eb3a85190037e Why, Reddit, I do believe that’s an excellent question. Apparently our love for whatever it is we love in the US outweighs our love of Norwegian goats. But it’s a close thing, I tell you. Until then, I’m gonna BE a stubborn goat right there fuck here. Way to go, OP.
Exactly. We need to stand and fight together. Taking the coward's way out is not something we need, especially now.
Thank you. We need to stop them here and now.
Before the Internet and specifically social media, it was hard to hear about these shitheads. They were generally limited to organizing local events and printing out pamphlets at Kinko’s.
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There will not be any safe place on Earth regardless
Alaska I feel like Alaska is far enough away from the mainland that if civil war broke out Alaskans would just keep doing what they've already been doing. Except for the prospect of Russia invading...
Alaska did exactly that in the Handmaids Tale. I wonder if the same would be true in real life .
Where do you wanna go to? Look up politics in Europe. Its all extreme rightwing parties winning every election.
I'm going to vote blue all the way through. I'll have faith in the American people until they let me down.
THANK YOU. I have been wanting to post the exact same sentiment for weeks now (and shame on me for not doing so).
Hard agree. The "Which country should I flee to" posts only make me start feeling the doom and gloom. Yes, things are scary but we're not in the exact same circumstances as nazi Germany or Gilead or whatever. They can **try** to do their little project 2025, but given how incompetent they were during covid and the fact that they are most certainly a minority I just don't see it happening without heavy *heavy* backlash coming their way. You can only push people so much before they push back. Them trying to push their brand of Christianity isn't going to fly easily in my opinion. We're a damn melting pot. We have people of all cultures here and there are even many different sects of their own religion that would condemn them. There are even republicans who aren't okay with this. I just don't see them pulling all of this shit off without having to answer to the majority. Edit: Also I don't see how some of these ridiculous policies they want to pass wouldn't hurt the economy and likely piss more people off.
If the economy goes to shit, I mean REALLY to shit, I think a lot of people will be shaken out of their indifference. And assuming we still have elections, which I have doubts about, that would be the end of Trump.
Stand up for our tatered and worn country! Don't run fight.
How do I spell Extra Damn, so I can type it properly before "and 'Nuff Respect due!?"
Agree.
Honestly I hate this idea that lgbt people and other minorities that will be at risk are cowards for not wanting to be eradicated. Sorry I don’t want to spend the rest of my days being shot at by nazis, the police, and the fucking national guard
also, physically leaving (i.e. exile) doesn’t mean you are quitting. you can still vote in the upcoming election, organize, etc. from anywhere in the world if you’re eligible to vote in the US. it’s not wrong to stay. it’s not wrong to leave. we can do both
Fortify and shoot back. Or Fortify anyway and carry on. Or move, I guess. There are options Saying this as someone who is queer as fuck and a very vocal trans ally
Exactly. There's a global shift to the right. I see these idiots talking about moving to places like Panama, Hungary, Turkey... as if those are beacons of democracy!
No, but if one gets hungry in Panama I'm sure they can eat turkey
Thanks for trying to lighten the mood, dad.
Youre welcome XD