__Hello and welcome to r/DemocraticSocialism!__
* This sub is dedicated towards the progressive movement, welcoming Democratic Socialism as an ideology and as a general political philosophy.
* Don't forget to read our [Rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/) to get a good idea of what is expected of participants in our community.
* Check out r/Leftist, r/DSA, r/SocialDemocracy to support leftist movements!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DemocraticSocialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Subs like these have dramatic changes in the complexion of conversations in election years. Like clockwork.
The "don't vote" people also don't talk about solutions, getting organized, etc.
These same people are also piling on our best politicians. While they aren't perfect, no politician ever is, or will be. That's a ridiculous standard to have. These people also can't square the fact that, whatever their vision of a perfect candidate is in this current environment is simply not electable in this country right now. They're unserious people.
Theyre the same people who systematically took over this sub, and several others, locked it, and turned it into an RFK Jr sub with posts about his campaign stickied at the top. To them, Bernie and AOC are sell-out shitlibs, but RFK Jr, child of the largest dynastic political family in US history is a great and well-meaning candidate because he's "an outsider" and "anti-interventionist". These are the same people who liked Tulsi for the same reasons despite her evidently see-through attempt at being a grassroots candidate. You'll never see any of those people admit they were wrong about her. No guilt in support, no anger about being a sell-out.
These tactics are nothing new. It does appear that people have not quite fallen into the same trap the way they did in 2015.
The bottom line is: you are never going to get EVERYTHING you want in a candidate. And you are not responsible for everything a candidate ends up doing if you voted for them. Don't buy into that shit.
My favorite is when you ask them "ok so what are you actally doing instead of voting" and they just make some vague statement to sound like they're organizing a revolution but of course they can't talk about it publicly because I might be a fed.
dont forget being accused of genocide because you dont think voting for the guy that frequently says "we should totally help a genocide" is a good idea
Yeah Donald Trump is Netanyahu's preference by what seems like a pretty wide margin.
If someone cared about helping the Palestinian people, making sure Trump doesn't get elected would seem like the thing to do.
Every time I have this conversation it always becomes since I’m advocating for voting for Biden, even if my only argument is that if you don’t more Palestinians will die, I might as well be in the IDF.
I sincerely doubt that anyone actually organizing for revolution is coyly vagueposting about it on reddit. That's why I think those comments are pure BS.
Good! That means that people are actually keeping sensitive information (or even incriminating information) away from the places somebody would think to look for it.
I'm certain some of them are, but if you let your suspicions of people on an anonymous tech bro website dictate your view of the seriousness of political ideologies I think you'll be worse for it. There are RevComs in America and they do do RevCom shit, but you won't find them advertising this Fedsite.
Not that I'm part of a RevCom Org, most of my organizing has been with DemSoc organizations. But I don't expect RevComs to advertise their shit on this website the way DemSocs and SocDems can feel comfortable doing so.
I have 0 reason to believe the guy posting shit like "guys you should be doing revolution instead of voting" is doing *anything* more than posting about it.
I'm aware that there's groups like Red Guards Austin, but to be honest, I don't take them much more seriously than the commenters in these subs who act like they're part of such groups. I don't think the violent revolution they're agitating for would be a good thing.
But there it is, you're equating actual RevComs who are organized and doing stuff to redditors you don't like and have deep suspicions of the seriousness of. That's the exact kind of pitfall I'm trying to warn about. There's plenty to be said about reddit larpers and how toxicly pure reddit mods can be to the wider leftist community on this site, but don't let that contagion breach out to your opinion of actual orgs, particularly if you're not actively involved with said orgs -- which seemed to be the implication from what you wrote. I don't personally know your history with Red Guards Austin.
I don't think the actual orgs you're referring to are helping anyone. I don't think the violent revolution they're agitating for is a good idea. That opinion is independent of the people on reddit who I'm saying are roleplaying as members of those orgs. I don't really respect any of those people, but for different reasons.
I think positive political change happens slowly, incrementally, and through hard boring work like pushing for more progressives to be in positions like Democrat precinct chairs and state party chairs, block-walkin, phone-callin, etc.
Leftists: Fuck this noise, nothing matters, screw the system, I'm not voting for genocide joe, I'm not lowering my personal morals to vote for someone I'm not 100% comfortable with, only sheep vote on election day, I'm not sullying myself by engaging in this broken system! Power to the people!
Right-wingers: First we take over the school boards, then the county boards, then the state electoral chambers...
Hey guys, found one!
OP: "Voting in this two party system requires compromise and choosing the better candidate"
This disingenuous troll: "wHy dO yoU WanT tO mUrdEr ChiLdrEn!!!"
Both characterizations are wrong.
Describing Biden as "someone I'm not 100% comfortable with" is bullshit. Same as calling him "not perfect". A lot of people would be ecstatic to vote for someone with no major concerns who they only agreed 50% with. Biden participates in genocide though, which is understandably a deal breaker for some. That's on top of being a generally horrible liberal.
I also didn't accuse anyone of wanting to murder children. I asked why that commenter was downplaying genocide. Because implying that there are no major concerns is very much downplaying genocide.
How do you intend to convince people when you can't even engage with the subject honestly?
I don't see Biden's actions as "downplaying genocide". I see it as making the only playable moves on the board that he's able to make given the shitty circumstances. It's quite telling when Bibi starts publicly accusing Biden of "slow-walking the military aid". That means he's already been quietly doing so for months now, and using that to buy time to try and broker an enduring peace deal. That in and of itself is a massive undertaking that requires a lot of things to go right in order to be successful, which includes a pathway to a Palestinian state, billions in aid to jumpstart their economy, and a multi-national peacekeeping force comprised of nations both Israel and Palestine would be ok with.
So, yes, your statement of "downplaying genocide" is about as disingenuous as the alt-right dismissing the LGBT community as "groomers and pedos". It's reductive and meant to shut down any rational discourse by reaching for the top shelf in terminology of heinousness.
Exactly this. Also the accusation of genocide is ridiculous on its face. Just something to say to make people feel righteous.
This war has been going on for eight months and in a population of 2 million people, maybe 20,000 civilians have been killed. Half of the total killed are fighters. In dense urban combat against an enemy incredibly intrenched in civilian areas.
So, people should pick their truth: is the Israeli military this dominant force that can act with impunity? Then, if it's genocide, why aren't hundreds of thousands of Palestinians dead? Why is the Israeli military escorting hundreds of trucks of food aid into Gaza every single day?
OR
Is the Israeli military literally like the weakest military on earth, and they really want to kill as many Gazans as possible, but they just like, can't do it?
OR MAYBE
Israel is trying to do what most countries would do and have done throughout history when confronted by a non-regular fighting force that is stealing aid and fighting asymmetrically, and trying to clear areas of civilians and play whack-a-mole against the enemy. By the way, this is exactly what the US did in Mosul when fighting ISIS.
edit:
>Bibi starts publicly accusing Biden of "slow-walking the military aid". That means he's been quietly doing so for months now
If you watch Israeli commentators, which I know few on this sub will do, they are complaining that if the US hadn't slowed down the rafah offensive for literally months (via diplomatic and military supplies pressure), their operations would likely be over by now, and we could be moving on to a political solution, which would actually help Biden.
The Israeli opinion of Biden was sky-high in the fall, after he moved two US carriers nearby to help prevent Hezbollah from launching an all-out war from lebanon, but that has plummeted after he and Blinken have been applying a lot of pressure for a cease-fire. It's not acceptable to the Israelis to have a cease-fire in which Hamas and/or Sinwar are still in power, as they know (and Hamas says as often as they can) that this will only result in more conflict later.
It's *so weird* when you see people talk like voting in a general election means you can't do all the other sorts of political activism, and you should. Voting won't fix everything, but compared with all the other forms of political activity it requires a trivial amount of effort. But voting in a general doesn't stop you from protesting, or organizing unions, or any other form of activism.
If you don't like the candidates in the general election, the thing to do would be to participate more in the next primary election. People talking like the Democratic Party has a closed decision making process are wrong.
Withholding your vote because Biden hasn't "earned it" (whatever that means) tallies *exactly the same* as not voting because you don't give a shit.
Another thing that bugs me is how often someone will be loudly talking about how great they are for not voting for Biden and then it turns out they're from Cali or NY. It must be great to live in a place so deep blue that your vote can't actually make it bluer, but some of us live in purple states or places like Texas that we're desperately trying to push to the left. Instead of preening about how pure you get to be, how's about trying to help Texas women get back their access to abortion?
Real & true, people who talk about “punishing Biden” by withholding their votes don’t seem to realize (or maybe they do and just don’t care) that they’re actually “punishing” everyone who will suffer under the alternative. I don’t like Biden and I’d never claim him as an ally in any liberation struggle, but holy fuck is he better than the unironic fascists we’ve got running half the country.
I can't stop saying it - not voting is not voting. It does not matter why someone does not vote - whether they don't care, or they're lazy, or they think both parties are the same, or they think that it will push Biden to the left, ALL of those non-votes count exactly the same and have the *exact* same effect on the outcome.
What's also ironic to me is that a lot of the people who want to protest vote in response to Gaza choose extremely questionable third-party candidates like Jill Stein, Cornel West, and RFK Jr. The problem is that all of these candidates want to pull aid for Ukraine, a country that Putin is committing genocide towards. Jill Stein even has direct ties to Putin! Voting third party or not voting at all isn't gonna stick it to Biden the way they think they do. The worst thing that will happen to Biden is that he gets to retire in a nice house by a lake. Unfortunately, that will certainly not be the reality for many Americans, especially BIPOCs, LGBTQIA+ folx, women, disabled people, and just about any other marginalized group.
Okay but unironically though if you see petitions in your area to get RFK on the ballot it’s a good idea to sign them (as long as they don’t add you to any weird mailing list or whatever). We want him to be listed as an option—not so *we* can vote for him, obviously, but so he can split the right-wing vote. He’s pulling a huge amount of his support from Trump’s more conspiracy-minded base, and the more attention he gets from those people the better our chances are of avoiding Project 2025.
If voting didn’t work they wouldn’t work so hard to keep people from doing it (both historically and currently). We can have universal healthcare, retirement, college, housing if we rally and make it happen. Then we need a new bill of rights. Corporations operate a the pleasure of the citizens of the United States and they should only be allowed to operate if it benefits those citizens.
I don't think its a psyop knowing some people like this but its an unproductive stance to say the least, especially because many I know don't perform non electoral politics.
I mean, is it so unreasonable to think that there's no astroturfed element whatsoever? We all know that capitalist interests have no depth they won't sink to in pursuit of sabotaging the left, this being rhetoric that does exactly that, and posing as leftists to advocate anti-electoralism in leftist circles is pretty tame compared to other stuff we have a lot more hard evidence of.
Obviously there's a grassroots level to it too. In fact, I would be surprised if a majority of the voices saying that didn't genuinely believe it, and should be addressed accordingly. I just wouldn't rule out the possibility of there being some astroturfing involved, you know?
I'm literally not. I literally said I think a majority of people saying this are genuine and should be treated as such. I just also said that bad faith actors are a possibility that shouldn't be ruled out. If you're going to call me unreasonable, at least show that you understand what I'm saying first.
Proof is hard to come by, and when it's discovered its usually after the fact, unless some egregious error was made on the astroturfer's part that gave away the game.
You mean doing nothing and waiting to die while the worst people alive wrestle power from marginally less shitty people isn’t a viable political strategy? Who could’ve guessed?
It’s kinda sus that there are a lot of “lefties”say anything short of revolution is liberal propaganda. Almost like they are trying to get you arrested. “Ah yes comrade I also agree that we should take up arms against the bourgeois. What’s your address so I can send you firearms?” Voting does not come near fixing our problems but it’s the bare minimum.
I think it depends on where you are. I live in a conservative state that will go for Trump. I have no problem voting third party or writing something in. To me the exposure of the vote for a third party candidate is more valuable politically than helping Biden lose in a state he was already going to lose. I don't have to vote Biden, and where I am geographically, it doesn't matter.
Likewise, I think not voting in the democratic primaries or voting for someone other than Biden is reasonable (in all states tbh).
However, to your point, I think people should vote. Further, if I was in a swing state where my vote "mattered" I would probably rally and vote Biden. You have to temper your ideals with pragmatism at times.
Why is this in leftist politics? The left has never had uniformity. We have always been a big tent so the theory of the different strains of leftism get muddled in the practicality. When things are divisive the idealism outweighs the pragmatism for a lot of leftists.
Why isn't this among conservatives? They are not a big tent. They require some buy in to the ideal that makes the choice easier and more homogenous. When things are made existential, the uniformity is the goal and drives them to vote in a block to secure the envisioned future.
I personally think America is headed towards balkanization regardless of how we vote, but maybe that is just my libertarian socialism coming out.
Definitely, get the vibe that domestic and foreign forces in media/social media are piggybacking off the genocide and other overseas atrocities to get the progressive youth to disengage from domestic politics and surrender their rights. 💀
Still hilarious to me how saying that you are anything short of “Bob, get the guns, we pulling off the Russian Revolution Two: Electric Boogaloo” is considered liberal in some spaces.
Of course, they're all cosplaying Bolsheviks. They don't actually want to create any kind of resistance, and especially not organise cooperatively.
They want to advocate that a disembodied "we" that does not, and will never include them, should start a mass shooting.
If someone ever did, it would be excellent news for fascist oligarchs, because it would legitimise crackdowns.
So they're either bots run by republican hedge funds, or they're so disorganised that they're accidentally emulating them. What's worse?
It’s never agitate, educate, organise into mass movements. It is always encouraging “organisation” by building these disparate organisations which have no chance of being the vanguard party these people tend to fall over for, and belief in toeing that party line like their life depends on it.
And in “revolutionary” organisations, it always ends up advocating for political violence at the basest levels when there is zero backing for it and that it will inevitably lead to radicalisation against the left.
It either feels like they are playing accelerationism or are too incompetent to recognise reality.
my top post is literally about exactly this, BUT i doubt all of it is controlled opposition. i mean, it is admittedly very principled yknow? the system is immoral, so i refuse to participate and be apart of it. obviously, this achieves nothing other than a "moral victory" where rights are stripped from minorities and it becomes harder to make meaningful change from within the system, but like. it does make some sense, yknow?
obviously the people with the most money in the world are definitely still paying bots to spread this shit but some of them are definitely comrades
I think it's more likely that the ones winning the class war (i.e. have money) are right-leaning spaces, so they are more likely to vote to keep their corporate socialism. However, it could be both, only time will tell.
I remember when Russia initially invaded Ukraine in 2022, there was an alarming amount of people (many of whom are well-educated people) reposting from Russian propaganda outlets (especially Redfish). It's scary just how sophisticated disinformation campaigns targeting leftists are and how just about anybody can get duped.
The ones that refuse to understand the nuance of foreign policy and how difficult it is to impose will on a nuclear power, let alone a sovereign country and longstanding (for better or worse) ally.
You frequent right wing/conservative subs???
I usually instantly get banned when I say anything to go against them. Perhaps that's why you never see it???
I mean, if you're frequently going to those subs....
It's not a psyopp, it's the trolley problem.
Some people would rather the trolley run over five people by doing nothing, than feel morally compromised by pulling the lever knowing one person is on the other track.
Some people value their moral superiority more than the lives of others, they can't be convinced otherwise so engaging with the "don't vote" crowd is an exercise in futility.
I don't even know if it is really the trolley problem. The trolley problem implies your action will harm a different person who would have otherwise not been harmed to prevent 5 people from being harmed who were already in harms way.
I think the people who would be harmed under Biden would also be harmed under Trump. We aren't steering the trolley to harm new folks who would otherwise be Okay under Trump. At least none that I can think of.
I think it is more akin to attempting to push the trolley sideways off the tracks but not having the strength to do it all the way. So some of the people who were in harms way are saved, and the 1 person who was already on the rail furthest from where you are pushing is still gonna get run over.
It’s like how the Green Party never campaigns at the local or state level, and has no members in Congress.
They only exist to siphon progressive votes away from the centrist party during Presidential elections
Voting in local elections can have a very real impact but no enough people participate, probably because so many are too overworked and alienated to be engaged at that level. However at the federal level every option on the ballot is for sale so what's the point?
I only saw it online for a day or two, but that Russian Twitter account that was using a ChatGPT script that ran out of money should be discussed more. The directions were specifically to be pro-Trump.
I got banned from one of the major lefty subs for suggesting there was a GOP psyop targeting lefties afoot
The mods are probably not in on it but have bought into the propaganda hook line and sinker
Maybe its either political sceptics or nihilists who don't care what happens. Probably they're left winger that want right wingers declare their vote proudly and are so confident of victory that they then lose their ship and then begin binging on twitter over stolen election stuff, so its probably a left wing master plan to provide new right wing clowns.
Imagine calling a DSA organized campaign a right wing psyop. Does anyone on this sub actually go to DSA meetings? It’s one thing to say you disagree with comrades, it’s another thing to pretend they don’t exist
Sometimes instead of voting for someone you’re not inspired by, you have to vote against someone you don’t like. It might be a miserable way to be, but it’s better than apathy.
I hear you. Thank god I'm not American. But it still pains me to see. I rejected my dual citizenship with America because I never want to live there. Shit scares me.
Me neither, I’m Canadian (and we’re facing our own crisis with one of the most useless politicians to ever hold federal office being the likely next pm all because people are mad at shit that the whole world is facing) but the sheer scope and power of the US means that we’re looking at severe global crises because a bunch of easily manipulated American Cletuses can’t be trusted to keep their fingers off the cherry bomb as they light it up to make sparkles. The oligarchs are using the slavery-era electoral college to fuck the entire planet for their personal profit and it’s not a great feeling.
Well said. I lived through that. I grew up in Canada and only recently (2021) moved to Australia. It's heaven over here. They have worker co-ops, unions are strong, I get paid double, my living expenses are exactly the same as they were in Canada. People here can get away with working less than 32 hours a week. We also have consumer rights that last up to a month for returns. It's amazing how pro employee it is here.
Here's the thing, the right doesn't ever go anti electorial because all of the candidates support their world view, so obviously why on earth would they revel against the shitty system in place?
I do get your point. Instead of telling people to "not vote" we should instead focus on galvanizing support for worthy candidates, even if they are not on the ballot.
Seriously, I see so many things saying that voting for Joe biden this election cycle is like voting for literal hitler. When the current system only has a two party system, you have to work within the current limitations to avoid all rights being stripped from the populace. Do I like Joe biden? No. He is far from the ideal leader of this country. Will I vote for him? Yes, as the alternative is a party that literally wants to eradicate democracy. You can protest president's like Joe biden by voting in the primary elections, the ones that determine which person will be campaigning for that specific party. Potential candidates will notice if their poll numbers start to slip during primaries, and will adjust their campaign accordingly. And yes, the campaign could just be a farce, but that's part of why we have a 2 term system. Is a president didn't hold to their promises, the primaries for the next election cycle will most certainly oust them from running again.
TLDR: While it is far from favorable, voting for Joe biden is better than not voting and giving Trump a shot at victory. Also, the primary elections are the ones to use to strong arm politicians.
Anyone telling you what to do you with your vote has lost the plot. Anybody posting on left subs that they won't vote is probably desperately searching for signs of life from Dems and NeoLibs or venting. Stop making progressives the enemy please.
I also think it is very suspicious that the anti electoralism leftists come out in full force discouraging people from voting. I also think it is alarmingly effective. I definitely know a lot of IRL folk who won't vote and cite all the typical tankie reasons. I think a lot of those folks spend a lot of time in social media echo chambers (as many of us do), and I suspect that is probably part of why they now wear not voting as a badge of honor.
Aside from all of the debates about whether you should vote for Biden or not, these people also seem to be completely forgetting that there are going to be a shit ton of other races on their ballot. There will also likely be some referendums -- and that is about as direct as you can get with your vote standing for or against 1 thing instead of one candidate who you dislike.
To be fair, IRL I also know couple of libertarian / anarcho-capitalist folk who also don't vote and are proud of it. But their attitude about not voting is different than the leftists I know who dont vote. I guess I don't spend enough time in libertarian spaces to really know if there is a holier than thou push to stay home on election day.
We need to take over the Democratic Party and make it Progressive the same way the southern racist, religious zealots took over the Republican Party and made it Fascist.
Holy hell people. Stop pretending voting is gonna change stuff and start building dual power projects. I might vote for Cornell West or Jill Stein but it’s not gonna change anything. Voting for Biden enables genocide and voting for Trump is obviously a non-starter.
If your entire power analysis relies on electoralism, you’re as stuck as a dog chasing its tail. Let’s roll up our sleeves and build stuff. Unions are an example of dual power, as are community defense organizations, as are mutual aid (when done MUTUALLY rather than just direct aid). There are more things to try than just these three bites for anyone looking for ideas. Let’s get to it.
Your contribution was removed for discouraging voting. We are supporters of democracy here and we won't allow discouragement of voting to plague our community.
There is only one way to achieve progress in a democracy and being counter productive to our movement is unacceptable on this sub.
For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow.
For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
The organized “uncommitted” folks are sending delegates to the DNC. Some terminally online anti-electoralists don’t do any real political action offline. And some of that content is certainly created and promoted by bad faith right wingers.
__Hello and welcome to r/DemocraticSocialism!__ * This sub is dedicated towards the progressive movement, welcoming Democratic Socialism as an ideology and as a general political philosophy. * Don't forget to read our [Rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/) to get a good idea of what is expected of participants in our community. * Check out r/Leftist, r/DSA, r/SocialDemocracy to support leftist movements! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DemocraticSocialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Subs like these have dramatic changes in the complexion of conversations in election years. Like clockwork. The "don't vote" people also don't talk about solutions, getting organized, etc. These same people are also piling on our best politicians. While they aren't perfect, no politician ever is, or will be. That's a ridiculous standard to have. These people also can't square the fact that, whatever their vision of a perfect candidate is in this current environment is simply not electable in this country right now. They're unserious people. Theyre the same people who systematically took over this sub, and several others, locked it, and turned it into an RFK Jr sub with posts about his campaign stickied at the top. To them, Bernie and AOC are sell-out shitlibs, but RFK Jr, child of the largest dynastic political family in US history is a great and well-meaning candidate because he's "an outsider" and "anti-interventionist". These are the same people who liked Tulsi for the same reasons despite her evidently see-through attempt at being a grassroots candidate. You'll never see any of those people admit they were wrong about her. No guilt in support, no anger about being a sell-out. These tactics are nothing new. It does appear that people have not quite fallen into the same trap the way they did in 2015. The bottom line is: you are never going to get EVERYTHING you want in a candidate. And you are not responsible for everything a candidate ends up doing if you voted for them. Don't buy into that shit.
My favorite is when you ask them "ok so what are you actally doing instead of voting" and they just make some vague statement to sound like they're organizing a revolution but of course they can't talk about it publicly because I might be a fed.
dont forget being accused of genocide because you dont think voting for the guy that frequently says "we should totally help a genocide" is a good idea
Yeah Donald Trump is Netanyahu's preference by what seems like a pretty wide margin. If someone cared about helping the Palestinian people, making sure Trump doesn't get elected would seem like the thing to do.
Every time I have this conversation it always becomes since I’m advocating for voting for Biden, even if my only argument is that if you don’t more Palestinians will die, I might as well be in the IDF.
... Literally yes? There's a reason why organizing *does not* occur in Reddit.
I sincerely doubt that anyone actually organizing for revolution is coyly vagueposting about it on reddit. That's why I think those comments are pure BS.
Good! That means that people are actually keeping sensitive information (or even incriminating information) away from the places somebody would think to look for it.
People are roleplaying as revolutionaries on reddit.
I'm certain some of them are, but if you let your suspicions of people on an anonymous tech bro website dictate your view of the seriousness of political ideologies I think you'll be worse for it. There are RevComs in America and they do do RevCom shit, but you won't find them advertising this Fedsite. Not that I'm part of a RevCom Org, most of my organizing has been with DemSoc organizations. But I don't expect RevComs to advertise their shit on this website the way DemSocs and SocDems can feel comfortable doing so.
I have 0 reason to believe the guy posting shit like "guys you should be doing revolution instead of voting" is doing *anything* more than posting about it. I'm aware that there's groups like Red Guards Austin, but to be honest, I don't take them much more seriously than the commenters in these subs who act like they're part of such groups. I don't think the violent revolution they're agitating for would be a good thing.
But there it is, you're equating actual RevComs who are organized and doing stuff to redditors you don't like and have deep suspicions of the seriousness of. That's the exact kind of pitfall I'm trying to warn about. There's plenty to be said about reddit larpers and how toxicly pure reddit mods can be to the wider leftist community on this site, but don't let that contagion breach out to your opinion of actual orgs, particularly if you're not actively involved with said orgs -- which seemed to be the implication from what you wrote. I don't personally know your history with Red Guards Austin.
I don't think the actual orgs you're referring to are helping anyone. I don't think the violent revolution they're agitating for is a good idea. That opinion is independent of the people on reddit who I'm saying are roleplaying as members of those orgs. I don't really respect any of those people, but for different reasons. I think positive political change happens slowly, incrementally, and through hard boring work like pushing for more progressives to be in positions like Democrat precinct chairs and state party chairs, block-walkin, phone-callin, etc.
Leftists: Fuck this noise, nothing matters, screw the system, I'm not voting for genocide joe, I'm not lowering my personal morals to vote for someone I'm not 100% comfortable with, only sheep vote on election day, I'm not sullying myself by engaging in this broken system! Power to the people! Right-wingers: First we take over the school boards, then the county boards, then the state electoral chambers...
exactly. and guess which one is more effective?
I’m not exactly worried about a socialist becoming president any time soon.
Those lefties get a moral victory. Meanwhile,the Right gets to dictate policy.
>I'm not lowering my personal morals to vote for someone I'm not 100% comfortable with Why do you feel the need to downplay genocide?
Hey guys, found one! OP: "Voting in this two party system requires compromise and choosing the better candidate" This disingenuous troll: "wHy dO yoU WanT tO mUrdEr ChiLdrEn!!!"
Both characterizations are wrong. Describing Biden as "someone I'm not 100% comfortable with" is bullshit. Same as calling him "not perfect". A lot of people would be ecstatic to vote for someone with no major concerns who they only agreed 50% with. Biden participates in genocide though, which is understandably a deal breaker for some. That's on top of being a generally horrible liberal. I also didn't accuse anyone of wanting to murder children. I asked why that commenter was downplaying genocide. Because implying that there are no major concerns is very much downplaying genocide. How do you intend to convince people when you can't even engage with the subject honestly?
I don't see Biden's actions as "downplaying genocide". I see it as making the only playable moves on the board that he's able to make given the shitty circumstances. It's quite telling when Bibi starts publicly accusing Biden of "slow-walking the military aid". That means he's already been quietly doing so for months now, and using that to buy time to try and broker an enduring peace deal. That in and of itself is a massive undertaking that requires a lot of things to go right in order to be successful, which includes a pathway to a Palestinian state, billions in aid to jumpstart their economy, and a multi-national peacekeeping force comprised of nations both Israel and Palestine would be ok with. So, yes, your statement of "downplaying genocide" is about as disingenuous as the alt-right dismissing the LGBT community as "groomers and pedos". It's reductive and meant to shut down any rational discourse by reaching for the top shelf in terminology of heinousness.
>I don't see Biden's actions as "downplaying genocide". Uh, okay. No one's said anything like that, but good for you, I guess.
Exactly this. Also the accusation of genocide is ridiculous on its face. Just something to say to make people feel righteous. This war has been going on for eight months and in a population of 2 million people, maybe 20,000 civilians have been killed. Half of the total killed are fighters. In dense urban combat against an enemy incredibly intrenched in civilian areas. So, people should pick their truth: is the Israeli military this dominant force that can act with impunity? Then, if it's genocide, why aren't hundreds of thousands of Palestinians dead? Why is the Israeli military escorting hundreds of trucks of food aid into Gaza every single day? OR Is the Israeli military literally like the weakest military on earth, and they really want to kill as many Gazans as possible, but they just like, can't do it? OR MAYBE Israel is trying to do what most countries would do and have done throughout history when confronted by a non-regular fighting force that is stealing aid and fighting asymmetrically, and trying to clear areas of civilians and play whack-a-mole against the enemy. By the way, this is exactly what the US did in Mosul when fighting ISIS. edit: >Bibi starts publicly accusing Biden of "slow-walking the military aid". That means he's been quietly doing so for months now If you watch Israeli commentators, which I know few on this sub will do, they are complaining that if the US hadn't slowed down the rafah offensive for literally months (via diplomatic and military supplies pressure), their operations would likely be over by now, and we could be moving on to a political solution, which would actually help Biden. The Israeli opinion of Biden was sky-high in the fall, after he moved two US carriers nearby to help prevent Hezbollah from launching an all-out war from lebanon, but that has plummeted after he and Blinken have been applying a lot of pressure for a cease-fire. It's not acceptable to the Israelis to have a cease-fire in which Hamas and/or Sinwar are still in power, as they know (and Hamas says as often as they can) that this will only result in more conflict later.
It's *so weird* when you see people talk like voting in a general election means you can't do all the other sorts of political activism, and you should. Voting won't fix everything, but compared with all the other forms of political activity it requires a trivial amount of effort. But voting in a general doesn't stop you from protesting, or organizing unions, or any other form of activism. If you don't like the candidates in the general election, the thing to do would be to participate more in the next primary election. People talking like the Democratic Party has a closed decision making process are wrong. Withholding your vote because Biden hasn't "earned it" (whatever that means) tallies *exactly the same* as not voting because you don't give a shit. Another thing that bugs me is how often someone will be loudly talking about how great they are for not voting for Biden and then it turns out they're from Cali or NY. It must be great to live in a place so deep blue that your vote can't actually make it bluer, but some of us live in purple states or places like Texas that we're desperately trying to push to the left. Instead of preening about how pure you get to be, how's about trying to help Texas women get back their access to abortion?
Real & true, people who talk about “punishing Biden” by withholding their votes don’t seem to realize (or maybe they do and just don’t care) that they’re actually “punishing” everyone who will suffer under the alternative. I don’t like Biden and I’d never claim him as an ally in any liberation struggle, but holy fuck is he better than the unironic fascists we’ve got running half the country.
I can't stop saying it - not voting is not voting. It does not matter why someone does not vote - whether they don't care, or they're lazy, or they think both parties are the same, or they think that it will push Biden to the left, ALL of those non-votes count exactly the same and have the *exact* same effect on the outcome.
Extremely real
What's also ironic to me is that a lot of the people who want to protest vote in response to Gaza choose extremely questionable third-party candidates like Jill Stein, Cornel West, and RFK Jr. The problem is that all of these candidates want to pull aid for Ukraine, a country that Putin is committing genocide towards. Jill Stein even has direct ties to Putin! Voting third party or not voting at all isn't gonna stick it to Biden the way they think they do. The worst thing that will happen to Biden is that he gets to retire in a nice house by a lake. Unfortunately, that will certainly not be the reality for many Americans, especially BIPOCs, LGBTQIA+ folx, women, disabled people, and just about any other marginalized group.
Okay but unironically though if you see petitions in your area to get RFK on the ballot it’s a good idea to sign them (as long as they don’t add you to any weird mailing list or whatever). We want him to be listed as an option—not so *we* can vote for him, obviously, but so he can split the right-wing vote. He’s pulling a huge amount of his support from Trump’s more conspiracy-minded base, and the more attention he gets from those people the better our chances are of avoiding Project 2025.
If voting didn’t work they wouldn’t work so hard to keep people from doing it (both historically and currently). We can have universal healthcare, retirement, college, housing if we rally and make it happen. Then we need a new bill of rights. Corporations operate a the pleasure of the citizens of the United States and they should only be allowed to operate if it benefits those citizens.
I don't think its a psyop knowing some people like this but its an unproductive stance to say the least, especially because many I know don't perform non electoral politics.
No reason why it can’t be partly a psyop and partly people believing it.
I think its questionable to believe that the source of this is external (and thus can't be helped) and not internal and will cause worse outcomes.
I mean, is it so unreasonable to think that there's no astroturfed element whatsoever? We all know that capitalist interests have no depth they won't sink to in pursuit of sabotaging the left, this being rhetoric that does exactly that, and posing as leftists to advocate anti-electoralism in leftist circles is pretty tame compared to other stuff we have a lot more hard evidence of. Obviously there's a grassroots level to it too. In fact, I would be surprised if a majority of the voices saying that didn't genuinely believe it, and should be addressed accordingly. I just wouldn't rule out the possibility of there being some astroturfing involved, you know?
Its unreasonable to assume that because then you are attacking ghosts to no benefit.
I'm literally not. I literally said I think a majority of people saying this are genuine and should be treated as such. I just also said that bad faith actors are a possibility that shouldn't be ruled out. If you're going to call me unreasonable, at least show that you understand what I'm saying first.
Yeah you are saying there's an astroturfed element without evidence.
Proof is hard to come by, and when it's discovered its usually after the fact, unless some egregious error was made on the astroturfer's part that gave away the game.
Not just psyop, these are accelerationists who want to burn it all down but don't want to be the ones burned if that makes sense
“I can’t wait for society to collapse so that my ideology can rise from the ashes” type mfs
They ought to look at how those types of events have worked out historically.
You mean doing nothing and waiting to die while the worst people alive wrestle power from marginally less shitty people isn’t a viable political strategy? Who could’ve guessed?
It’s kinda sus that there are a lot of “lefties”say anything short of revolution is liberal propaganda. Almost like they are trying to get you arrested. “Ah yes comrade I also agree that we should take up arms against the bourgeois. What’s your address so I can send you firearms?” Voting does not come near fixing our problems but it’s the bare minimum.
I think it depends on where you are. I live in a conservative state that will go for Trump. I have no problem voting third party or writing something in. To me the exposure of the vote for a third party candidate is more valuable politically than helping Biden lose in a state he was already going to lose. I don't have to vote Biden, and where I am geographically, it doesn't matter. Likewise, I think not voting in the democratic primaries or voting for someone other than Biden is reasonable (in all states tbh). However, to your point, I think people should vote. Further, if I was in a swing state where my vote "mattered" I would probably rally and vote Biden. You have to temper your ideals with pragmatism at times. Why is this in leftist politics? The left has never had uniformity. We have always been a big tent so the theory of the different strains of leftism get muddled in the practicality. When things are divisive the idealism outweighs the pragmatism for a lot of leftists. Why isn't this among conservatives? They are not a big tent. They require some buy in to the ideal that makes the choice easier and more homogenous. When things are made existential, the uniformity is the goal and drives them to vote in a block to secure the envisioned future. I personally think America is headed towards balkanization regardless of how we vote, but maybe that is just my libertarian socialism coming out.
Definitely, get the vibe that domestic and foreign forces in media/social media are piggybacking off the genocide and other overseas atrocities to get the progressive youth to disengage from domestic politics and surrender their rights. 💀
Careful, this talk will get you banned from the Tankie subs which favour the authoritarian stance of the Republican party.
I’ve already been banned 😎
You must be doing something right then.
Being called a lib or counterrevolutionary by a tankie is the highest compliment any leftist can receive
They get you too? The price of stepping in the path of the information wars of vanguardism.
Still hilarious to me how saying that you are anything short of “Bob, get the guns, we pulling off the Russian Revolution Two: Electric Boogaloo” is considered liberal in some spaces.
Of course, they're all cosplaying Bolsheviks. They don't actually want to create any kind of resistance, and especially not organise cooperatively. They want to advocate that a disembodied "we" that does not, and will never include them, should start a mass shooting. If someone ever did, it would be excellent news for fascist oligarchs, because it would legitimise crackdowns. So they're either bots run by republican hedge funds, or they're so disorganised that they're accidentally emulating them. What's worse?
It’s never agitate, educate, organise into mass movements. It is always encouraging “organisation” by building these disparate organisations which have no chance of being the vanguard party these people tend to fall over for, and belief in toeing that party line like their life depends on it. And in “revolutionary” organisations, it always ends up advocating for political violence at the basest levels when there is zero backing for it and that it will inevitably lead to radicalisation against the left. It either feels like they are playing accelerationism or are too incompetent to recognise reality.
my top post is literally about exactly this, BUT i doubt all of it is controlled opposition. i mean, it is admittedly very principled yknow? the system is immoral, so i refuse to participate and be apart of it. obviously, this achieves nothing other than a "moral victory" where rights are stripped from minorities and it becomes harder to make meaningful change from within the system, but like. it does make some sense, yknow? obviously the people with the most money in the world are definitely still paying bots to spread this shit but some of them are definitely comrades
I think it's more likely that the ones winning the class war (i.e. have money) are right-leaning spaces, so they are more likely to vote to keep their corporate socialism. However, it could be both, only time will tell.
I remember when Russia initially invaded Ukraine in 2022, there was an alarming amount of people (many of whom are well-educated people) reposting from Russian propaganda outlets (especially Redfish). It's scary just how sophisticated disinformation campaigns targeting leftists are and how just about anybody can get duped.
Mfers that say genocide Joe while actively giving the election to someone that has said they would give Israel whatever they need to “finish the job”.
The ones that refuse to understand the nuance of foreign policy and how difficult it is to impose will on a nuclear power, let alone a sovereign country and longstanding (for better or worse) ally.
You frequent right wing/conservative subs??? I usually instantly get banned when I say anything to go against them. Perhaps that's why you never see it??? I mean, if you're frequently going to those subs....
Do you hang out in conservative spaces often?
If you live in a conservative area, you will be "hanging out" in conservative spaces often, whether you want to or not.
It's not a psyopp, it's the trolley problem. Some people would rather the trolley run over five people by doing nothing, than feel morally compromised by pulling the lever knowing one person is on the other track. Some people value their moral superiority more than the lives of others, they can't be convinced otherwise so engaging with the "don't vote" crowd is an exercise in futility.
I don't even know if it is really the trolley problem. The trolley problem implies your action will harm a different person who would have otherwise not been harmed to prevent 5 people from being harmed who were already in harms way. I think the people who would be harmed under Biden would also be harmed under Trump. We aren't steering the trolley to harm new folks who would otherwise be Okay under Trump. At least none that I can think of. I think it is more akin to attempting to push the trolley sideways off the tracks but not having the strength to do it all the way. So some of the people who were in harms way are saved, and the 1 person who was already on the rail furthest from where you are pushing is still gonna get run over.
It's so bizarre seeing them take the stance of the Centrist and still claim to be Leftists
my fave of when they tell you you're voting wrong if you vote for the candidate you want to win instead of their candidate.
It’s like how the Green Party never campaigns at the local or state level, and has no members in Congress. They only exist to siphon progressive votes away from the centrist party during Presidential elections
Voting in local elections can have a very real impact but no enough people participate, probably because so many are too overworked and alienated to be engaged at that level. However at the federal level every option on the ballot is for sale so what's the point?
I only saw it online for a day or two, but that Russian Twitter account that was using a ChatGPT script that ran out of money should be discussed more. The directions were specifically to be pro-Trump.
I haven’t seen that actually, do you have a link to any info on this?
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/chatgpt-bot-x-russian-campaign-meme/
Thanks for the link! That’s wild lol
Well I just saw nick fuentes saying don't vote for trump because he's "pro immigration" so it may become both sides
Finally, the right is adopting our foolproof tactic of just giving up! Side note what in the genuine fuck is bro talking about lmao
I mean he is a nazi so I assume any immigration is too much to him
I got banned from one of the major lefty subs for suggesting there was a GOP psyop targeting lefties afoot The mods are probably not in on it but have bought into the propaganda hook line and sinker
Getting banned from a leftist sub means you’re a true leftist, wear your ban with honor comrade
Maybe its either political sceptics or nihilists who don't care what happens. Probably they're left winger that want right wingers declare their vote proudly and are so confident of victory that they then lose their ship and then begin binging on twitter over stolen election stuff, so its probably a left wing master plan to provide new right wing clowns.
Imagine calling a DSA organized campaign a right wing psyop. Does anyone on this sub actually go to DSA meetings? It’s one thing to say you disagree with comrades, it’s another thing to pretend they don’t exist
Ironic post.
Well it's because Biden is lukewarm. Wish we had Bernie boy.
God I fuckin wish
Sometimes instead of voting for someone you’re not inspired by, you have to vote against someone you don’t like. It might be a miserable way to be, but it’s better than apathy.
I hear you. Thank god I'm not American. But it still pains me to see. I rejected my dual citizenship with America because I never want to live there. Shit scares me.
Me neither, I’m Canadian (and we’re facing our own crisis with one of the most useless politicians to ever hold federal office being the likely next pm all because people are mad at shit that the whole world is facing) but the sheer scope and power of the US means that we’re looking at severe global crises because a bunch of easily manipulated American Cletuses can’t be trusted to keep their fingers off the cherry bomb as they light it up to make sparkles. The oligarchs are using the slavery-era electoral college to fuck the entire planet for their personal profit and it’s not a great feeling.
Well said. I lived through that. I grew up in Canada and only recently (2021) moved to Australia. It's heaven over here. They have worker co-ops, unions are strong, I get paid double, my living expenses are exactly the same as they were in Canada. People here can get away with working less than 32 hours a week. We also have consumer rights that last up to a month for returns. It's amazing how pro employee it is here.
Ah man, as if I didn’t already want to move there, that sounds pretty amazing!
Here's the thing, the right doesn't ever go anti electorial because all of the candidates support their world view, so obviously why on earth would they revel against the shitty system in place? I do get your point. Instead of telling people to "not vote" we should instead focus on galvanizing support for worthy candidates, even if they are not on the ballot.
Seriously, I see so many things saying that voting for Joe biden this election cycle is like voting for literal hitler. When the current system only has a two party system, you have to work within the current limitations to avoid all rights being stripped from the populace. Do I like Joe biden? No. He is far from the ideal leader of this country. Will I vote for him? Yes, as the alternative is a party that literally wants to eradicate democracy. You can protest president's like Joe biden by voting in the primary elections, the ones that determine which person will be campaigning for that specific party. Potential candidates will notice if their poll numbers start to slip during primaries, and will adjust their campaign accordingly. And yes, the campaign could just be a farce, but that's part of why we have a 2 term system. Is a president didn't hold to their promises, the primaries for the next election cycle will most certainly oust them from running again. TLDR: While it is far from favorable, voting for Joe biden is better than not voting and giving Trump a shot at victory. Also, the primary elections are the ones to use to strong arm politicians.
Anyone telling you what to do you with your vote has lost the plot. Anybody posting on left subs that they won't vote is probably desperately searching for signs of life from Dems and NeoLibs or venting. Stop making progressives the enemy please.
Mfers that say genocide Joe while actively giving the election to someone that has said they would give Israel whatever they need to “finish the job”.
I also think it is very suspicious that the anti electoralism leftists come out in full force discouraging people from voting. I also think it is alarmingly effective. I definitely know a lot of IRL folk who won't vote and cite all the typical tankie reasons. I think a lot of those folks spend a lot of time in social media echo chambers (as many of us do), and I suspect that is probably part of why they now wear not voting as a badge of honor. Aside from all of the debates about whether you should vote for Biden or not, these people also seem to be completely forgetting that there are going to be a shit ton of other races on their ballot. There will also likely be some referendums -- and that is about as direct as you can get with your vote standing for or against 1 thing instead of one candidate who you dislike. To be fair, IRL I also know couple of libertarian / anarcho-capitalist folk who also don't vote and are proud of it. But their attitude about not voting is different than the leftists I know who dont vote. I guess I don't spend enough time in libertarian spaces to really know if there is a holier than thou push to stay home on election day.
We need to take over the Democratic Party and make it Progressive the same way the southern racist, religious zealots took over the Republican Party and made it Fascist.
Holy hell people. Stop pretending voting is gonna change stuff and start building dual power projects. I might vote for Cornell West or Jill Stein but it’s not gonna change anything. Voting for Biden enables genocide and voting for Trump is obviously a non-starter. If your entire power analysis relies on electoralism, you’re as stuck as a dog chasing its tail. Let’s roll up our sleeves and build stuff. Unions are an example of dual power, as are community defense organizations, as are mutual aid (when done MUTUALLY rather than just direct aid). There are more things to try than just these three bites for anyone looking for ideas. Let’s get to it.
[удалено]
Your contribution was removed for discouraging voting. We are supporters of democracy here and we won't allow discouragement of voting to plague our community. There is only one way to achieve progress in a democracy and being counter productive to our movement is unacceptable on this sub. For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
[удалено]
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow. For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
Mfers that say genocide Joe while actively giving the election to someone that has said they would give Israel whatever they need to “finish the job”.
Mfers that say genocide Joe while actively giving the election to someone that has said they would give Israel whatever they need to “finish the job”.
I don’t understand how self proclaimed libertarians can be either “undecided” or even in favor of the creeps coming up with “Project 2025”.
The organized “uncommitted” folks are sending delegates to the DNC. Some terminally online anti-electoralists don’t do any real political action offline. And some of that content is certainly created and promoted by bad faith right wingers.
Mfers that say genocide Joe while actively giving the election to someone that has said they would give Israel whatever they need to “finish the job”.