That's an interesting thought; idk if there is anything about this in the lore, I am not a person who would know that, but I think it fits the Vex for them to be able to remember that
I don’t think it’s Neptune years, since that would push the timeline forward by a thousands of earth years (the current timeline some lore theorists have come up with, myself included, places the events of d2 at some point in the 31st or 32nd century, but for all the cloud striders we know to have lived to have lived to have done 10 full Neptune in rotations before their death, we’d be talking about thousands of years (about 1600 per cloud strider. Multiply that by the number of cloud striders in the mural on neomuna, and you get some crazy numbers)
Imo, this doesn’t sound like much of a sacrifice to me, since it’s longer than any single guardian we know of has been alive, and would mean that the dark ages alone were longer than the collective history of humanity up to this point, which is about 12,000 years.
So then the issue becomes how did rohan see the black gardens heart before it was destroyed? I’m thinking it may have been one of the first things he did as a cloud strider, since that would place him seeing it just shy of 10 years ago, and just before when we would have destroyed it. That also lines up nicely with the fact that we know Rohan’s time as a cloud strider was coming to an end before his sacrifice.
The other thing with the Vex is that its the Vex, he could have seen it happen yesterday from his perspective. Though the "start of his career" thing is a simpler answer
This is all connected to the Tree of Silver Wings.
So using this analogy if the Gardener plants the flowers or tree well the Winnower would then come and prune off the dying leaves or diseased.
The Gardner or Traveler is associated with living plants while we see the Winnower and or these Disciples and Witness connection to dead leaves branches etc upon their death.
It would seem Disciples are possibly correlated to older gods who were sometimes seen as Chimeric.
My guess is it has some correlation to the process of making them a Disciple and or the the dead branches signaling the death and its correlation to the role of Winnower.
Trees might be the wrong image, I’ve always interpreted them as being closer to veins. Certain resonant (i.e. darkness) objects shoot out similar tendrils when they’re destroyed (though they’re often more transparent), and I’ve always sort of connected them to the consciousness aspect of darkness. Memory is such an important part of darkness because it teaches us not to make the same mistakes that light requires us to forget in order to thrive. The idea being that if we remember our mistakes, we’ll grow stronger, and only the strong survive. If we forget those mistakes though, maybe we’ll try the same thing again and this time it’ll work for us.
My interpretation is that the veins are a physical manifestation of this. “Here is a thing that failed”, and so the forces of the witness are calling out to eachother to say “hey, this thing didn’t work, learn from this mistake”
I dont think so at all. Osiris talks about Solar and The whole creation and Destruction concept as it relates to The Sun and Solar energy. He speaks on a master of Solar understanding this.
It should be noted this Stars(Plural), mentioned here came from Darkness as it says. It's possible it refers to both the Winnower and the Gardener or an offspring of that Union such as A Solar God.
13.4 billion years ago, the first stars kindled out of darkness, seeding the future of all life.
I don’t think this is a direct illusion to the traveler, even if the traveler turns out to be that old. Instead, it’s more a reference to the universal force of solar energy being first realized when the original starts were created after the Big Bang: a reminder that no life would be possible without the destructive power of stars
I believe the exposure of the Veil Strands correspond with the events taking place.
They did study it via a weapon that contained it the sidearm we have and believed it came from the Veil but that's it.
They can't know what they don't see. I'm sure they've studied the Veil for ages, but they focused on its applications for digitizing consciousness rather than the other effects it produces. Considering how dated the containment area was, they moved on after a while and didn't really deliver into the deeper stuff.
In short, guardians are more in-tune to the parascausal nature of things while Neomuna are more interested in the technological applications.
Remember that, canonically, the guardian (your guardian) is one of the most powerful beings in the universe. It’s likely that as a direct result of your attunement to both the light and the darkness, you’re able to see the weave. Combine your power with the paracausal energy from the veil, and you create the perfect opportunity to tap into a newly found fundamental force of the universe in a way no one has been able to before you, even the people that live around one of the necessary pieces for you to find it.
Think of it like a baker and their ingredients: you can leave all the yeast and flour you want in front of a toddler, but a baker—someone attuned to the specifics of these ingredients—knows how to make it into bread.
There's a line in the "Fallen Saber" strike where Ghost says that he "lives in our backpack". While this could be a joke, it is possible that there's some small bit of our armour that he could hang out in to remain safe (or even some kind of paracasual pocket he can hide in).
I believe there is lore to state that Ghosts stay near to their Guardians but remain hidden (invisible, stealthed, etc) when in combat, but I don't have any specific sources available to link at the moment. This is inferred by how Ghosts generally need to locate the body of their Guardian in order to revive them (not counting disintegrations iirc).
I haven’t completed RoN, but during the first encounter, we can see a root of the plant piercing Nezerec’s Tomb, forming an odd structure on the other side. I’ve seen similar symbols to that odd structure, but haven’t seen much discussion around what it is or signifies. What do we know?
This question is less about the first raid encounter and more the symbol in general
The symbol is darkness related. There are similar ones on the upended in VOW, the side of revision zero, and a couple other places (most notably, the symbol for calus’s shadow legion is a modified version of this symbol that has his seal on top of it—the outline of the leviathan).
My best guess is that the root, being a direct result of the light, may have grabbed this towering artifact (artifact really isn’t the right word, maybe it’s just a darkness flag pole, lol) and tried to destroy the tomb with it. My other guess is that it just happens to be a part of the tomb and as a result, as the root grew around the tomb it also grew around the artifact.
It remains to be seen if the symbol means anything other than “forces of the witness” at this point, but as of right now that’s what we know
Thanks for the informative reply! I’ll have to check out the it’s other appearances.
The artifact doesn’t look native to the Pyramids at all imo, and neither does it look like a natural occurrence of the root. It seems to be a mix like something born of both darkness and light. Here’s hoping we learn more soon!
I'm sorry for a noob question, especially if it's answered somewhere else. What's up with Ishtar Collective not actually displaying any of the new lore books (or even the last 2 entries of last season's book)? And is this subreddit the best place to read those books?
Ishtar usually keeps them classified for quite some time in the season. The best place to try to read those if you wish is here. You can use search function or ask someone if they have it.
Many times people will make posts on lore and some even type them for offline reading.
So during one of seasonal activities this week there is dialogue between crow and devrim about how he use to be a paratrooper???? Has this come up before?
Here’s a lore entry on Devrim’s husband Marc teasing him about the one time [he had to jump from a jump ship with a broken transmat system](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/rain-of-fire), and so I assume this has been retconned into “devrim knew how to do this in this particular instance because he used to be a paratrooper before this incident”
Do the Guardians actually know all the lore that we get in lorebooks and excerpts and stuff in the actual game canon? Or is it just stuff we the players know that our Guardians don't?
I don’t know about all or even most, but certainly a lot. We know this because certain lore books are referenced in game, and others are from the perspective of certain characters as information shared with us directly (like the Martian missives lore book) or shared openly (the notes of the speakers throughout the years, for example)
What’s tricky is that some more books are writings in universe and some are just the thoughts of characters. The vanguard net is full of a tremendous amount of information however, so my head canon is that everything tactical from a lore book is known/knowable by the guardians, and everything personal is a toss up, depending on the circumstances)
Does anyone else kind of roll their eyes whenever the game tries to big up Savathûn? So, like, she was the one who somehow killed Nezarec, separated the Veil from the Traveller, hid it on Neptune, deceived the Witness itself (who by the way it seemingly turns out to never have even bothered to show up in person to our first Collapse) and may or may not be responsible for the Traveller staying behind on Earth... at this point what the heck did the Traveller even do if it turned out Savathûn really was pretty much *the* sole reason we survived and not just *a* reason like they previously said?
For me I think the biggest point people miss about Savathun is we can have the same enemy but not be allies. Just because Savathun did something that benefited the Traveler doesnt make her our ally.
Shes our enemy. She herself made clear in Star Jasmine while we may have goal that aligns we atent on the same side. Shes doing what shes doing for her own means.
They had Savathun do all that to Osiris many of our Guardians were drained of light. Shes no friend or ally.
Savathun has played both sides. I think she found out Disciples arent the Final Shape but it seems they are sacrifices in a sense made to fulfill something. The Witness fulfills whatever their wish or need is but they all die.
The new lore from Raid has an unnamed seemingly dead Disciple listing her as a Disciple. This Disciple calls out how none of these Disiples seem to truly understand what the Final Shape is and their methods are terrible and wrong.
The Witness telling Calus he has no purpose because he refused to seek one then telling him he gave him everything he wanted Go find the Veil is another clue. Calus was a Disciple who would lead us to the Veil where the Witness needed us to be. We would then dispose of Calus.
The Witness gave him what he needed and he served as a way to bring us right where he wanted us.
I cant stand Savathun being made as some great hero who helped us cause she truly only helped herself.
Transfiguration comes with a price.
I don't mind Savathûn being the mega big brain of Destiny's universe but they can, and have showcased this in ways that actually make her seem clever.
However, her involvement in saving the Traveler, hiding the Veil and deceiving the Witness all in one fell swoop just feels like Bungie wanted to give her props for something pertinent to the main story rather than telling casual players to go read lore from Forsaken or whatever.
IMO the biggest casualty of this is how Savathûn's scheming from Savathûn's Song all the way up until Season of the Lost was tossed aside for a plot twist telegraphed from the very moment they revealed Witch Queen. Harvesting Void Light, stealing dead Ghosts, possessing Osiris and recovering the Crown of Sorrows? *That* felt earned.
I’ve been curious, what did the hive harvest the void light for? And how does it work ?
I always figured the light was like an energy feeding source to fuel their soul fire, or perhaps some of savuthons greater abilities before she had the light.
She totally earned our ire however. She is clearly an enemy of humanity. I don’t understand why she led the traveler to earth though. It just seems like cooperating with us would have been more beneficial for her if she actually wanted to beat rhulk and the witness. Seems like cooperation is the difference maker between our reality and the dark future (which is one of my favorite lore pieces)
Why? Many of our guardians were drained, killed. What happened to Osiris even isnt so easy to just look over. Savathun was out for herself once she realized Disciples arent the end all be all but pawns and sacrifices in the Witness plans.
Our once strongest Risen has been reduced to having No light because of her BS. Nope Savathun better stay dead
I'll kill her over and over if need be.
But it wasn’t. She reaped what she sowed and her actions would have damned the universe either way. There’s not even any guarantee she could have contained Rhulk or stopped the Witness from sacking the place.
Hey you know when atheon deletes someone from time, does atheon remember deleting anyone?
Lore wise nothing thus far prohibits Vex from memory
That's an interesting thought; idk if there is anything about this in the lore, I am not a person who would know that, but I think it fits the Vex for them to be able to remember that
Anyone know what the Day 1 Vow emblem “The Cleaver” is supposed to depict? Thanks!
It's a Mandala and I believe it's the Dark and Light Sun if I'm thinking of the right Emblem.
Is the ten year lifespan thing for cloudstriders in neptune years or earth years?
I don’t think it’s Neptune years, since that would push the timeline forward by a thousands of earth years (the current timeline some lore theorists have come up with, myself included, places the events of d2 at some point in the 31st or 32nd century, but for all the cloud striders we know to have lived to have lived to have done 10 full Neptune in rotations before their death, we’d be talking about thousands of years (about 1600 per cloud strider. Multiply that by the number of cloud striders in the mural on neomuna, and you get some crazy numbers) Imo, this doesn’t sound like much of a sacrifice to me, since it’s longer than any single guardian we know of has been alive, and would mean that the dark ages alone were longer than the collective history of humanity up to this point, which is about 12,000 years. So then the issue becomes how did rohan see the black gardens heart before it was destroyed? I’m thinking it may have been one of the first things he did as a cloud strider, since that would place him seeing it just shy of 10 years ago, and just before when we would have destroyed it. That also lines up nicely with the fact that we know Rohan’s time as a cloud strider was coming to an end before his sacrifice.
The other thing with the Vex is that its the Vex, he could have seen it happen yesterday from his perspective. Though the "start of his career" thing is a simpler answer
Why do deciples become trees?
This is all connected to the Tree of Silver Wings. So using this analogy if the Gardener plants the flowers or tree well the Winnower would then come and prune off the dying leaves or diseased. The Gardner or Traveler is associated with living plants while we see the Winnower and or these Disciples and Witness connection to dead leaves branches etc upon their death. It would seem Disciples are possibly correlated to older gods who were sometimes seen as Chimeric. My guess is it has some correlation to the process of making them a Disciple and or the the dead branches signaling the death and its correlation to the role of Winnower.
Trees might be the wrong image, I’ve always interpreted them as being closer to veins. Certain resonant (i.e. darkness) objects shoot out similar tendrils when they’re destroyed (though they’re often more transparent), and I’ve always sort of connected them to the consciousness aspect of darkness. Memory is such an important part of darkness because it teaches us not to make the same mistakes that light requires us to forget in order to thrive. The idea being that if we remember our mistakes, we’ll grow stronger, and only the strong survive. If we forget those mistakes though, maybe we’ll try the same thing again and this time it’ll work for us. My interpretation is that the veins are a physical manifestation of this. “Here is a thing that failed”, and so the forces of the witness are calling out to eachother to say “hey, this thing didn’t work, learn from this mistake”
I used the term "tree" cause of a post I saw earlier. I like your vein interpretation
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Probably intended, it uses the same themes considering it's naturally related to darkness.
Is the first star mentioned in Starfire protocol exotic the traveler?
I dont think so at all. Osiris talks about Solar and The whole creation and Destruction concept as it relates to The Sun and Solar energy. He speaks on a master of Solar understanding this. It should be noted this Stars(Plural), mentioned here came from Darkness as it says. It's possible it refers to both the Winnower and the Gardener or an offspring of that Union such as A Solar God. 13.4 billion years ago, the first stars kindled out of darkness, seeding the future of all life.
I don’t think this is a direct illusion to the traveler, even if the traveler turns out to be that old. Instead, it’s more a reference to the universal force of solar energy being first realized when the original starts were created after the Big Bang: a reminder that no life would be possible without the destructive power of stars
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I believe the exposure of the Veil Strands correspond with the events taking place. They did study it via a weapon that contained it the sidearm we have and believed it came from the Veil but that's it.
They can't know what they don't see. I'm sure they've studied the Veil for ages, but they focused on its applications for digitizing consciousness rather than the other effects it produces. Considering how dated the containment area was, they moved on after a while and didn't really deliver into the deeper stuff. In short, guardians are more in-tune to the parascausal nature of things while Neomuna are more interested in the technological applications.
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Remember that, canonically, the guardian (your guardian) is one of the most powerful beings in the universe. It’s likely that as a direct result of your attunement to both the light and the darkness, you’re able to see the weave. Combine your power with the paracausal energy from the veil, and you create the perfect opportunity to tap into a newly found fundamental force of the universe in a way no one has been able to before you, even the people that live around one of the necessary pieces for you to find it. Think of it like a baker and their ingredients: you can leave all the yeast and flour you want in front of a toddler, but a baker—someone attuned to the specifics of these ingredients—knows how to make it into bread.
Where does the Ghost go when we "unsummon" it?
There's a line in the "Fallen Saber" strike where Ghost says that he "lives in our backpack". While this could be a joke, it is possible that there's some small bit of our armour that he could hang out in to remain safe (or even some kind of paracasual pocket he can hide in). I believe there is lore to state that Ghosts stay near to their Guardians but remain hidden (invisible, stealthed, etc) when in combat, but I don't have any specific sources available to link at the moment. This is inferred by how Ghosts generally need to locate the body of their Guardian in order to revive them (not counting disintegrations iirc).
I haven’t completed RoN, but during the first encounter, we can see a root of the plant piercing Nezerec’s Tomb, forming an odd structure on the other side. I’ve seen similar symbols to that odd structure, but haven’t seen much discussion around what it is or signifies. What do we know? This question is less about the first raid encounter and more the symbol in general
The symbol is darkness related. There are similar ones on the upended in VOW, the side of revision zero, and a couple other places (most notably, the symbol for calus’s shadow legion is a modified version of this symbol that has his seal on top of it—the outline of the leviathan). My best guess is that the root, being a direct result of the light, may have grabbed this towering artifact (artifact really isn’t the right word, maybe it’s just a darkness flag pole, lol) and tried to destroy the tomb with it. My other guess is that it just happens to be a part of the tomb and as a result, as the root grew around the tomb it also grew around the artifact. It remains to be seen if the symbol means anything other than “forces of the witness” at this point, but as of right now that’s what we know
Thanks for the informative reply! I’ll have to check out the it’s other appearances. The artifact doesn’t look native to the Pyramids at all imo, and neither does it look like a natural occurrence of the root. It seems to be a mix like something born of both darkness and light. Here’s hoping we learn more soon!
I'm sorry for a noob question, especially if it's answered somewhere else. What's up with Ishtar Collective not actually displaying any of the new lore books (or even the last 2 entries of last season's book)? And is this subreddit the best place to read those books?
Ishtar usually keeps them classified for quite some time in the season. The best place to try to read those if you wish is here. You can use search function or ask someone if they have it. Many times people will make posts on lore and some even type them for offline reading.
Thank you!
You are welcome!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
So during one of seasonal activities this week there is dialogue between crow and devrim about how he use to be a paratrooper???? Has this come up before?
Here’s a lore entry on Devrim’s husband Marc teasing him about the one time [he had to jump from a jump ship with a broken transmat system](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/rain-of-fire), and so I assume this has been retconned into “devrim knew how to do this in this particular instance because he used to be a paratrooper before this incident”
Do the Guardians actually know all the lore that we get in lorebooks and excerpts and stuff in the actual game canon? Or is it just stuff we the players know that our Guardians don't?
I don’t know about all or even most, but certainly a lot. We know this because certain lore books are referenced in game, and others are from the perspective of certain characters as information shared with us directly (like the Martian missives lore book) or shared openly (the notes of the speakers throughout the years, for example) What’s tricky is that some more books are writings in universe and some are just the thoughts of characters. The vanguard net is full of a tremendous amount of information however, so my head canon is that everything tactical from a lore book is known/knowable by the guardians, and everything personal is a toss up, depending on the circumstances)
Does anyone else kind of roll their eyes whenever the game tries to big up Savathûn? So, like, she was the one who somehow killed Nezarec, separated the Veil from the Traveller, hid it on Neptune, deceived the Witness itself (who by the way it seemingly turns out to never have even bothered to show up in person to our first Collapse) and may or may not be responsible for the Traveller staying behind on Earth... at this point what the heck did the Traveller even do if it turned out Savathûn really was pretty much *the* sole reason we survived and not just *a* reason like they previously said?
For me I think the biggest point people miss about Savathun is we can have the same enemy but not be allies. Just because Savathun did something that benefited the Traveler doesnt make her our ally. Shes our enemy. She herself made clear in Star Jasmine while we may have goal that aligns we atent on the same side. Shes doing what shes doing for her own means. They had Savathun do all that to Osiris many of our Guardians were drained of light. Shes no friend or ally. Savathun has played both sides. I think she found out Disciples arent the Final Shape but it seems they are sacrifices in a sense made to fulfill something. The Witness fulfills whatever their wish or need is but they all die. The new lore from Raid has an unnamed seemingly dead Disciple listing her as a Disciple. This Disciple calls out how none of these Disiples seem to truly understand what the Final Shape is and their methods are terrible and wrong. The Witness telling Calus he has no purpose because he refused to seek one then telling him he gave him everything he wanted Go find the Veil is another clue. Calus was a Disciple who would lead us to the Veil where the Witness needed us to be. We would then dispose of Calus. The Witness gave him what he needed and he served as a way to bring us right where he wanted us. I cant stand Savathun being made as some great hero who helped us cause she truly only helped herself. Transfiguration comes with a price.
I don't mind Savathûn being the mega big brain of Destiny's universe but they can, and have showcased this in ways that actually make her seem clever. However, her involvement in saving the Traveler, hiding the Veil and deceiving the Witness all in one fell swoop just feels like Bungie wanted to give her props for something pertinent to the main story rather than telling casual players to go read lore from Forsaken or whatever. IMO the biggest casualty of this is how Savathûn's scheming from Savathûn's Song all the way up until Season of the Lost was tossed aside for a plot twist telegraphed from the very moment they revealed Witch Queen. Harvesting Void Light, stealing dead Ghosts, possessing Osiris and recovering the Crown of Sorrows? *That* felt earned.
I’ve been curious, what did the hive harvest the void light for? And how does it work ? I always figured the light was like an energy feeding source to fuel their soul fire, or perhaps some of savuthons greater abilities before she had the light. She totally earned our ire however. She is clearly an enemy of humanity. I don’t understand why she led the traveler to earth though. It just seems like cooperating with us would have been more beneficial for her if she actually wanted to beat rhulk and the witness. Seems like cooperation is the difference maker between our reality and the dark future (which is one of my favorite lore pieces)
In my eyes, it’s to make us realize how killing her was a pretty big mistake.
Why? Many of our guardians were drained, killed. What happened to Osiris even isnt so easy to just look over. Savathun was out for herself once she realized Disciples arent the end all be all but pawns and sacrifices in the Witness plans. Our once strongest Risen has been reduced to having No light because of her BS. Nope Savathun better stay dead I'll kill her over and over if need be.
But it wasn’t. She reaped what she sowed and her actions would have damned the universe either way. There’s not even any guarantee she could have contained Rhulk or stopped the Witness from sacking the place.