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Season of the Witch showed that we can basically do anything our enemies can do, if needed. However it takes tremendous effort and a lot of risk. Remember: evicting Xivu almost killed Eris outright. Aside from Mara, Savathûn is probably the most powerful "ally" we have; which is why they bark at each other every once in awhile.
Savathûn will only help us if she's helping herself as a side dish. Otherwise, she'll go into hiding to do some experiments and wait for pieces to fall into or out of place
I mean at this point what even is Savvy's motivation? Like, she doesn't have a worm to feed anymore right? What's stopping her from just fucking off to the other side of the galaxy or even beyond? Make yourself a little cozy home in a far away planet. Every threat that seems to be on the horizon looks pretty local or earth/humanity focused so why is she still hanging around us? Ironically we are her biggest threat.
She wants power. Why do you think she's really in the pale heart?
Sure some of it is to help. She knew more than any of us the forces and power the witness had. She's also strengthening her brood by cutting out the weak who refuse to give up the sword logic, and do what THEY want to do not what they think they should do under their "government ".
She's also I think trying to find out what and how the witness planned to bring about the Final Shape so she can use the power to do something. Idk what. Maybe make ALL hive free of their worms....make everyone bow to her?......like I say idk what. But she's looking for something.
Maybe a way to be a light bearer with all those perks without having to be linked to a ghost amongst other things
I mean, she wants to transcend the "Game". She says it herself for the Dual Destiny mission. I don't remember if is during the mission or the lead up to unlocking it, but she says something to that effect.
She doesn't want to be a pawn, and while trading the worm for a ghost isn't the best trade in removing yourself from that, a ghost does give infinitely more freedom than the worm.
Re the ghost.
I only think she wants to get rid of it because currently she's held captive by us through Immaru. We can at anypoint destroy him and make her lightless.
But a ghost is a much better thing to have than a worm yes. The ghost doesn't demand anything in return for the light.
I’m convinced she just likes us, and thinks going away would be less fun. It’s the same as the banter with Micah about not realizing she’s lying - humanoids are just really fun and quirky.
She probably won't fuck off until she gets Immaru back, maybe she's just biding her time until she has an opportunity to get him back. Then beyond that, a way to have the power without having to rely on him?
She wants to be 1. immortal, and 2. Free from the machinations of both Light and Dark.
Trading Dark for Light, worm for Ghost, was a great move, but it still leaves her fate tied to that of the Traveller (and Immaru).
Savathun literally can't stop trolling people and the Sol system is so full of big events happening that I think she'd feel insulted if she was asked to simply leave now that she's no longer obligated to murder people to sate her worm - she's having \*fun\* and she's not going to stop now.
But only specifically for Savathun. Because she's the queen of lies. If Savathun wasn't who she is we could continue working together. Caital Mithrax and luzaku are living proof
Towards the same result, not the same goal. At the end of the day the LH is serving Savathun and we're protecting Sol. There's overlap but calling them the same feels like stretching the definition.
Sooooo… … cooperation.
**Cooperation – the action or process of working together to the same end (Oxford Dictionary)**
You're reading too much into the word *cooperation*. This simply means operating together. It doesn't necessarily mean that we like each other or that we have the same motivations. But if you're going to argue with the dictionary now, I'm out, have fun, I guess.
My brother in the Traveler YOU brought up the dictionary, not me. If we're gonna split hairs like this, then I'm really focused on the "together" because that requires it to be mutual, which it isn't. Both sides see the other as a means to an end, no matter how you slice it, look at it, approach it from a certain perspective, or tickle it's balls that's not cooperating, it's exploitation.
Mara was holding back the Witness while we went in the portal
She also encased Savathûn in crystal with minimal effort
Mara is powerful but makes it look effortless because Queen™. Though Riven made a good point. Mara works almost exclusively in making deals and bargains. Yet she very freely gives us her power and allyship asking for nothing in return. She doesnt even task us to "fix the Dreaming City"(an impossible task). Why would someone as unimaginably powerful as Mara keep doing us favors with so little to gain on her end? Especially now that she has Crow, a Vanguard, on speed dial
I am 90% sure that Mara does all she does for us because she's very well aware she needs us on her side. We've done things that she herself could do, but her most valuable pieces could not. She has asked for things before, like rescuing her techeuns from the ascendent plane, and we did so happily. Why? Because she's been there when we need her. She's taken the EXACT opposite position Savathun has. She has made herself invaluable to us so we can't really say no, as without her we lose a substantial amount of power.
I still subscribe to the very real possibly that Mara always wanted a Guardian in her back pocket. We met her basically fresh out the grave and managed to take out the Black Heart. At the time, we didnt know exactly how powerful she was. Just an "Alien" Queen with an overly dedicated douche of a brother.
As Spider made very clear, having an immortal God-Zombie is invaluable. So she kept making sure we could be on speed dial. Now she has Crow, us, and the Vanguard (who only trust her like 85%). She proved shes perfectly reliable by going the extra mile to rally the factions for Excision, holding the portal open despite it straining her, and saving us by coming within slapping distance of the Witness.
I have a feeling little miss "My schemes have schemes" is going to ask a BIG favor of the Vanguard by cashing in all that good faith.
I’m somewhat unimpressed by her help against the Witness, because frankly what else was she going to do, crack open a cold one and watch the universe end? She’s easier to work with than Savathun, but I trust the both of them equally. So, not much.
I mean, Mara’s been experimenting with assuming control of the Taken.
Mara betrayed the Awoken for humanity in creating a flawed Distributary and then instigated a schism to lead half her people out of the heaven they had made to come to our rescue. I don’t think she’s doing us favors so much as working towards the same end goal. Not to mention, she has made several requests of us, including killing Riven, recovering Savathun’s worm, and rescuing her Techeuns, to name a few.
Mara got a lot of her power from simply being the first one in the Distributary way back during the collapse. Then she got even more after she let Oryx kill her, so she could get wacky powers from the Ascendant plane.
*Stronger*, yes, but Mara has access to magic that Guardians could only dream of. Without her and her Techeuns, we’d have been royally screwed several times over since Lightfall alone.
This touches on my crack fan theory; I don't think Savathun wants to be our enemy anymore. I think she's just been a Hive God of deception for too long that she doesn't know how to interact with us in any other way. Listening to her words in the Pale Heart, and Dual Destiny especially, I don't think she's sarcastic when she says that she likes us. Hive Gods have a twisted way of showing their affection, and she has shown us nothing but affection in Hive language. She even tried to trick us into recieving presents at the end of DD! Savathun has been flirting with us the whole time.
I have a theory about that, wanted to post it to (maybe I should add it to this post:
Hypothesis: Savathun is about to introduce Sword Logic 2.0™, which is not about who will win the confrontarion, but who is smart enough to avoid it. That's why she sends Lucent Hive after us - to see who will be smart enough to break out. That's why she praises Luzaku and calls her "the first one who understood". What if she's making *a purge* in her Hive to leave only those who are smart enough to change their ways?
I totally agree that she has no bad intentions towards us, in fact she would have no reason of doing so.
Yeah, but Savathun criticized that as well with Mara Sov. No, I think Savathun is aiming higher; I thing she wants to abandon these conflicting philosophies and take on the Gardener and the Winnower herself, and I think she wants us by her side when she does so.
Well, she did try to save the traveler last time. So I don’t know if its quite that. I believe her when she said she brought the traveler to her throne world to keep it safe. But it just can’t anymore
I feel this is entirely incorrect. This entire DLC has been about what appeared to be opposing forces working together in harmony. I propose this idea. What's stronger than the sharpest sword? Two sharpest swords. Stronger than that? An army of sharpest swords. She's looking for a way to fuse bomb and sword logic, to create a kind of explosive-sword logic. That's my theory at least.
Savathun *already* invented and implemented a Sword Logic 2.0:
>With this tribute, I shall undertake a mighty work. A real humdinger of a scheme. I'm going to refinance my entire existence. I'm going to move from an existential economy based on the accumulation of violence to an existential economy based on the accumulation of secrets and the tribute of failing-to-understand-me. I shall name this tribute of failing-to-understand IMBARU, for it shall be as formless as the mist.
It wasn’t 100% successful as a replacement for the paracausal wormy forces holding her hostage, but AFAIK she’s still heavily invested in IMBARU (while diversifying her portfolio with a sprinkle of friendship and a dollop of Light).
Savathuns' issue is that even after being given the light and given a second chance to be whomever she wants free of the need to deceive and trick, she still chooses to do so. It's one thing if Savathun came to us with the understanding that "Hey, I died so I didn't have to be that person anymore - let's talk it over and get things straight"
but instead, her acceptance of the light and her plan would have meant stealing it from us despite her knowing the Witness plans and her inability to fight it.
In truth, Savathun's smart but clearly has allowed her ego to overtake her still after her resurrection. She mentions how she's "helped" us, but to Mara's point, just because we have overcome all of her plans doesn't mean that they were helpful - when she herself could have simply been helpful in many ways.
Savathun's "plan" doesn't really feel like a plan. Just feels like her attempting to do things, us foiling them while trying to achieve our own goals, and then her claiming she "helped" us despite not having any intent on doing so.
Eeeexcept engineer a situation where tithing to feed the worms is no longer necessary. The Lucent Hive are no longer in danger of being consumed by their worms, the Light has created a sort of negative pressure in the tithing system, the worms are sated without murder to feed them. The Lucent Hive are largely doing hive shit out of habit at this point. If they wanted, they could dedicate themselves to charity and the arts, it's just going to take a WHILE for Savathun's machinations to begin to affect their cultural perspective on things. Luzaku being the first to really understand their new status quo.
Which to me feels hilarious.
Savathun: "Trick me, eh? I shall become the trickiest trickster that even tricked in the whole universe! You'll see! Or you won't, because I'm that tricksy!"
Savathun wasn't manipulating, she wasn't even a hive god yet
The Osmium King's worm whispered to her. Guided her to the worm gods. It told her of the godwave and thus at Savathun's behest Xivu and Oryx decided to go down there by repairing the needle ship.
Then they gave up halfway and that's WHEN Oryx led Sav and Xivu.
That makes me wonder about her motivations in keeping the Traveler and setting up her throne world the way she did. Could she have really sealed it up entirely and just disappeared the whole throne world into the Ascendant Plane for safety against the Final Shape?
Honestly I feel that plan was a bit of a “buy time” strategy instead of a win strategy. The rules of the Ascendant Plane and Throne Worlds are a bit weird, but I don’t believe it would’ve kept the Witness out indefinitely. Heck Eris was able to banish Xivu Arath from her’s basically by powering up. The Witness empowered the Hive through the Worm gods so I don’t think the Ascendant Plane would’ve stopped it. Not to mention Rhulk’s pyramid was still in Savathun’s world at that point.
I'm kind of curious if she had a plan to go into the Pale Heart herself- if all things went well, she would have the Traveler (in her throne world), the Veil (not far away) and Oryx as a Navigator. I can't find the source right now, but I distinctly remember the line "Why does the Witch Queen need a Navigator?"
No lol
If The Witness can carve portals and appear in any dimensions Calus is in even in his dreams, Sylvanas wannabe is just delaying the inevitable of her painful death.
I like to think that Savathun has been "The Witch Queen of Lies" for so long to feed her worm that she kind of enjoys telling us the truth about some stuff now that her worm is gone. Don't get me wrong, I don't think she will tell us anything that would compromise her plans but I just think she gets a thrill from telling the truth since it was such a forbidden fruit for most of her life.
If Sword Logic 2.0 is about being smart enough to avoid confrontation, then you know who already excels at it?
"The Neomuni."
Well... Yes, but I was thinking of the Reef Awoken. Everytime something new and dangerous comes into the system, they're smart enough to shut the curtains, turn of the lights, and keep quiet. It's bascially been the Blitz in Interamnia since Taken King.
TFS campaign somehow reminds me of the StarCraft 2 DLC. I always felt weird that the swarm just choosed to stay in Char. The idea of sworm just chilled in one specific planet feels weird.
For Savathun, she's thinking not only how to defeat The witness, but also what's going to happen after The witness is defeated. Now since nearly all races(hive not included) are humans' ally, she needs to prepare something to defend our assault.
But I think this won't happen until Xivu is dead, considering now we have this echo things. Probably one of the episodes is going to be dealing witht Xivu's force and kill Xivu(probably gonna get power boosted by the echo).
Something that I haven't seen anyone talk about, that I think cements Savathun as very clearly a villain, is that she was still *with* Saint when she was possessing Osiris. If they, um, did the devil's tango, that means she's a rapist. Idk, maybe the two no longer have sex--one of them is an old man and the other is a robot--but if they did, it's rape, both legally and ethically.
It is a little goofy how Katty we are with her still. Like obviously she has tricked us a bunch and she's an evil rock skeleton bug so we can't be friends with her. But you'd think after everything she's done like killing Nezerac, hiding the veil, getting chosen by the white ball, setting up the 15th wish, (probably purposely) putting herself in a position for Eris to to become the strongest hive God... you'd think that would change *something* about our relationship.
It's like we all know she's not actually trying to kill us and it all comes down to "you are only helping us because it helped you!!" Which to me is like saying doctors are bad guys cuz they get paid well. It's like, yeah she's mean and torments us and always stays ahead but she does save humanity pretty much every time she's in the story these days
We have an inspector Clouseau/Cato relationship with her right now. The constant threat of her danger makes us stronger and more prepared. The Lucent Hive could literally be waiting in our fridge right now, waiting to ambush us before we’ve had our morning cereal. And that’s how they make us stronger.
she committed several hundred genocides and aggressively manipulated countless people including riven who used crow who killed cayde and ummun arath who she used to summon xivu to torobatl who promptly blew it up so yes i think savathun has done """some""" things we wouldn't do
I mean, that's kind of deflection with regard to the things Savathun provably has done.
We're talking millenia of serial xenocide.
I genuinely think the majority of the allied characters and lightbearers in the game would just choose to let humanity go extinct if those were the only two options.
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Season of the Witch showed that we can basically do anything our enemies can do, if needed. However it takes tremendous effort and a lot of risk. Remember: evicting Xivu almost killed Eris outright. Aside from Mara, Savathûn is probably the most powerful "ally" we have; which is why they bark at each other every once in awhile. Savathûn will only help us if she's helping herself as a side dish. Otherwise, she'll go into hiding to do some experiments and wait for pieces to fall into or out of place
I mean at this point what even is Savvy's motivation? Like, she doesn't have a worm to feed anymore right? What's stopping her from just fucking off to the other side of the galaxy or even beyond? Make yourself a little cozy home in a far away planet. Every threat that seems to be on the horizon looks pretty local or earth/humanity focused so why is she still hanging around us? Ironically we are her biggest threat.
She still likes fucking with people in general
She used to do it for a living. Now it's just a hobby
She wants power. Why do you think she's really in the pale heart? Sure some of it is to help. She knew more than any of us the forces and power the witness had. She's also strengthening her brood by cutting out the weak who refuse to give up the sword logic, and do what THEY want to do not what they think they should do under their "government ". She's also I think trying to find out what and how the witness planned to bring about the Final Shape so she can use the power to do something. Idk what. Maybe make ALL hive free of their worms....make everyone bow to her?......like I say idk what. But she's looking for something. Maybe a way to be a light bearer with all those perks without having to be linked to a ghost amongst other things
I mean, she wants to transcend the "Game". She says it herself for the Dual Destiny mission. I don't remember if is during the mission or the lead up to unlocking it, but she says something to that effect. She doesn't want to be a pawn, and while trading the worm for a ghost isn't the best trade in removing yourself from that, a ghost does give infinitely more freedom than the worm.
Re the ghost. I only think she wants to get rid of it because currently she's held captive by us through Immaru. We can at anypoint destroy him and make her lightless. But a ghost is a much better thing to have than a worm yes. The ghost doesn't demand anything in return for the light.
Savathûn also knows how vulnerable Ghosts can be. If she wants to secure her immortality, keeping Immaru with the Vanguard is an incredibly safe bet
Just for the love of the game at this point
I’m convinced she just likes us, and thinks going away would be less fun. It’s the same as the banter with Micah about not realizing she’s lying - humanoids are just really fun and quirky.
She probably won't fuck off until she gets Immaru back, maybe she's just biding her time until she has an opportunity to get him back. Then beyond that, a way to have the power without having to rely on him?
She wants to be 1. immortal, and 2. Free from the machinations of both Light and Dark. Trading Dark for Light, worm for Ghost, was a great move, but it still leaves her fate tied to that of the Traveller (and Immaru).
Savathun literally can't stop trolling people and the Sol system is so full of big events happening that I think she'd feel insulted if she was asked to simply leave now that she's no longer obligated to murder people to sate her worm - she's having \*fun\* and she's not going to stop now.
Cus they werent brave enough to make her a full ally or kill her off and dont know what to do with her story anymore
I mean, I think we cooperate with her Hive for exactly the same reason - to gain something ourselves 😅
Savathûn is very upfront on "our interests temporarily align". She directly acknowledges that after the dust settles, shes next.
I mean, it's not like *we* are hiding it either 😅
But only specifically for Savathun. Because she's the queen of lies. If Savathun wasn't who she is we could continue working together. Caital Mithrax and luzaku are living proof
Oh no who could have seen that coming - Savathun
We're not cooperating with the Hive. Them participating in the final assault on the Witness's forces was, at best, a very temporary armistice.
And then we worked together for the same goal during the battle. It's called cooperation.
Towards the same result, not the same goal. At the end of the day the LH is serving Savathun and we're protecting Sol. There's overlap but calling them the same feels like stretching the definition.
Sooooo… … cooperation.
**Cooperation – the action or process of working together to the same end (Oxford Dictionary)**
You're reading too much into the word *cooperation*. This simply means operating together. It doesn't necessarily mean that we like each other or that we have the same motivations. But if you're going to argue with the dictionary now, I'm out, have fun, I guess.
My brother in the Traveler YOU brought up the dictionary, not me. If we're gonna split hairs like this, then I'm really focused on the "together" because that requires it to be mutual, which it isn't. Both sides see the other as a means to an end, no matter how you slice it, look at it, approach it from a certain perspective, or tickle it's balls that's not cooperating, it's exploitation.
Is mara really that powerful? I would've thought that someone like Saint or Ikora is stronger
Mara was holding back the Witness while we went in the portal She also encased Savathûn in crystal with minimal effort Mara is powerful but makes it look effortless because Queen™. Though Riven made a good point. Mara works almost exclusively in making deals and bargains. Yet she very freely gives us her power and allyship asking for nothing in return. She doesnt even task us to "fix the Dreaming City"(an impossible task). Why would someone as unimaginably powerful as Mara keep doing us favors with so little to gain on her end? Especially now that she has Crow, a Vanguard, on speed dial
I am 90% sure that Mara does all she does for us because she's very well aware she needs us on her side. We've done things that she herself could do, but her most valuable pieces could not. She has asked for things before, like rescuing her techeuns from the ascendent plane, and we did so happily. Why? Because she's been there when we need her. She's taken the EXACT opposite position Savathun has. She has made herself invaluable to us so we can't really say no, as without her we lose a substantial amount of power.
I still subscribe to the very real possibly that Mara always wanted a Guardian in her back pocket. We met her basically fresh out the grave and managed to take out the Black Heart. At the time, we didnt know exactly how powerful she was. Just an "Alien" Queen with an overly dedicated douche of a brother. As Spider made very clear, having an immortal God-Zombie is invaluable. So she kept making sure we could be on speed dial. Now she has Crow, us, and the Vanguard (who only trust her like 85%). She proved shes perfectly reliable by going the extra mile to rally the factions for Excision, holding the portal open despite it straining her, and saving us by coming within slapping distance of the Witness. I have a feeling little miss "My schemes have schemes" is going to ask a BIG favor of the Vanguard by cashing in all that good faith.
She wanted that guardian to be Crow, if I remember correctly.
I’m somewhat unimpressed by her help against the Witness, because frankly what else was she going to do, crack open a cold one and watch the universe end? She’s easier to work with than Savathun, but I trust the both of them equally. So, not much. I mean, Mara’s been experimenting with assuming control of the Taken.
We know that Mara is a straight shooter that plays cards close to the chest We trust that we cant trust Savathûn
Mara betrayed the Awoken for humanity in creating a flawed Distributary and then instigated a schism to lead half her people out of the heaven they had made to come to our rescue. I don’t think she’s doing us favors so much as working towards the same end goal. Not to mention, she has made several requests of us, including killing Riven, recovering Savathun’s worm, and rescuing her Techeuns, to name a few.
Because, should she stop being useful and start being disagreeable…..the distributary sounds like a good name for a raid with her as the final boss.
Mara got a lot of her power from simply being the first one in the Distributary way back during the collapse. Then she got even more after she let Oryx kill her, so she could get wacky powers from the Ascendant plane.
*Stronger*, yes, but Mara has access to magic that Guardians could only dream of. Without her and her Techeuns, we’d have been royally screwed several times over since Lightfall alone.
Sounds like lucent brood propaganda...
Lucent Hive? Risen by the Traveler? o.O
Localized entirely within my solar system?
“Yes!” “Can I see it?” “No.”
Well Savathun, you are an odd Hive, but I must say you steam a good worm.
…may I see them?
... No
This touches on my crack fan theory; I don't think Savathun wants to be our enemy anymore. I think she's just been a Hive God of deception for too long that she doesn't know how to interact with us in any other way. Listening to her words in the Pale Heart, and Dual Destiny especially, I don't think she's sarcastic when she says that she likes us. Hive Gods have a twisted way of showing their affection, and she has shown us nothing but affection in Hive language. She even tried to trick us into recieving presents at the end of DD! Savathun has been flirting with us the whole time.
I have a theory about that, wanted to post it to (maybe I should add it to this post: Hypothesis: Savathun is about to introduce Sword Logic 2.0™, which is not about who will win the confrontarion, but who is smart enough to avoid it. That's why she sends Lucent Hive after us - to see who will be smart enough to break out. That's why she praises Luzaku and calls her "the first one who understood". What if she's making *a purge* in her Hive to leave only those who are smart enough to change their ways? I totally agree that she has no bad intentions towards us, in fact she would have no reason of doing so.
Sword logic isnt about strong or smart. Its just about winning.
Ye, this is a simplification, but Sword Logic involves confrontation, not avoiding it.
So, it would be avoiding the sword, so could you technically call this Shield logic? I feel that's a better term than
Dodge Logic.
The Hunter main way of life
What is this dodge you speak of, because I’m to busy pulling lead and calcified bone from my armor and sewing my cloak back together from the thralls.
Theres bomb logic, which is using complicated means and multiple parts for a big impact.
Which probably wouldn't conflict with the proposed Sword Logic 2.0. You know who usually avoids the explosion? The bomber.
Yeah, but Savathun criticized that as well with Mara Sov. No, I think Savathun is aiming higher; I thing she wants to abandon these conflicting philosophies and take on the Gardener and the Winnower herself, and I think she wants us by her side when she does so.
Well, she did try to save the traveler last time. So I don’t know if its quite that. I believe her when she said she brought the traveler to her throne world to keep it safe. But it just can’t anymore
Personally I don't think the Gardener and the Traveller are the same being, just like the Veil and the Winnower aren't the same
I have trust me bro vibes right now. But I swear I heard that stated somewhere 🤣
I feel this is entirely incorrect. This entire DLC has been about what appeared to be opposing forces working together in harmony. I propose this idea. What's stronger than the sharpest sword? Two sharpest swords. Stronger than that? An army of sharpest swords. She's looking for a way to fuse bomb and sword logic, to create a kind of explosive-sword logic. That's my theory at least.
>explosive-sword logic Do *not* tell Savathun about Gjallarsword.
Right. Winning a conflict. By any means. Sword logic is supposed to be the simple means to an end.
You can’t win a conflict that you don’t engage in.
If you don’t participate, do you still need to survive? Or do you mean taking yourself out of the game? 🤯🔫
You could forage on scraps and carrion like some sort of vulture.
Its not kill to become strong. Its survive to become Racoon
Add on a rocket sidearm and you get Rocket Raccoon.
Savathun *already* invented and implemented a Sword Logic 2.0: >With this tribute, I shall undertake a mighty work. A real humdinger of a scheme. I'm going to refinance my entire existence. I'm going to move from an existential economy based on the accumulation of violence to an existential economy based on the accumulation of secrets and the tribute of failing-to-understand-me. I shall name this tribute of failing-to-understand IMBARU, for it shall be as formless as the mist. It wasn’t 100% successful as a replacement for the paracausal wormy forces holding her hostage, but AFAIK she’s still heavily invested in IMBARU (while diversifying her portfolio with a sprinkle of friendship and a dollop of Light).
Savathuns' issue is that even after being given the light and given a second chance to be whomever she wants free of the need to deceive and trick, she still chooses to do so. It's one thing if Savathun came to us with the understanding that "Hey, I died so I didn't have to be that person anymore - let's talk it over and get things straight" but instead, her acceptance of the light and her plan would have meant stealing it from us despite her knowing the Witness plans and her inability to fight it. In truth, Savathun's smart but clearly has allowed her ego to overtake her still after her resurrection. She mentions how she's "helped" us, but to Mara's point, just because we have overcome all of her plans doesn't mean that they were helpful - when she herself could have simply been helpful in many ways. Savathun's "plan" doesn't really feel like a plan. Just feels like her attempting to do things, us foiling them while trying to achieve our own goals, and then her claiming she "helped" us despite not having any intent on doing so.
Nothing Savathun has done has been to save her people
Eeeexcept engineer a situation where tithing to feed the worms is no longer necessary. The Lucent Hive are no longer in danger of being consumed by their worms, the Light has created a sort of negative pressure in the tithing system, the worms are sated without murder to feed them. The Lucent Hive are largely doing hive shit out of habit at this point. If they wanted, they could dedicate themselves to charity and the arts, it's just going to take a WHILE for Savathun's machinations to begin to affect their cultural perspective on things. Luzaku being the first to really understand their new status quo.
Again, none of this was done for their benefit
It may not have been done *for* their benefit, but it was definitely done *to* their benefit.
Sure, and Savathun was the one to get them into this situation in the first place, so that doesn't really wipe her record.
In her defense, she and her sisters were tricked.
Which to me feels hilarious. Savathun: "Trick me, eh? I shall become the trickiest trickster that even tricked in the whole universe! You'll see! Or you won't, because I'm that tricksy!"
Uh didn't the hive's literal origin happen because Savathun wanted to save her people from a syzygy/godwave
No, Oryx did. Savathun was manipulating them the whole time as she communed with the worm.
Savathun wasn't manipulating, she wasn't even a hive god yet The Osmium King's worm whispered to her. Guided her to the worm gods. It told her of the godwave and thus at Savathun's behest Xivu and Oryx decided to go down there by repairing the needle ship. Then they gave up halfway and that's WHEN Oryx led Sav and Xivu.
Savathun was a liar long before she ever became a god. That's why her tithe is misunderstanding. It's her true nature.
We are literally told this directly lmao people care more about their headcanon than they do the lore
That makes me wonder about her motivations in keeping the Traveler and setting up her throne world the way she did. Could she have really sealed it up entirely and just disappeared the whole throne world into the Ascendant Plane for safety against the Final Shape?
Honestly I feel that plan was a bit of a “buy time” strategy instead of a win strategy. The rules of the Ascendant Plane and Throne Worlds are a bit weird, but I don’t believe it would’ve kept the Witness out indefinitely. Heck Eris was able to banish Xivu Arath from her’s basically by powering up. The Witness empowered the Hive through the Worm gods so I don’t think the Ascendant Plane would’ve stopped it. Not to mention Rhulk’s pyramid was still in Savathun’s world at that point.
I'm kind of curious if she had a plan to go into the Pale Heart herself- if all things went well, she would have the Traveler (in her throne world), the Veil (not far away) and Oryx as a Navigator. I can't find the source right now, but I distinctly remember the line "Why does the Witch Queen need a Navigator?"
No lol If The Witness can carve portals and appear in any dimensions Calus is in even in his dreams, Sylvanas wannabe is just delaying the inevitable of her painful death.
I like to think that Savathun has been "The Witch Queen of Lies" for so long to feed her worm that she kind of enjoys telling us the truth about some stuff now that her worm is gone. Don't get me wrong, I don't think she will tell us anything that would compromise her plans but I just think she gets a thrill from telling the truth since it was such a forbidden fruit for most of her life.
If Sword Logic 2.0 is about being smart enough to avoid confrontation, then you know who already excels at it? "The Neomuni." Well... Yes, but I was thinking of the Reef Awoken. Everytime something new and dangerous comes into the system, they're smart enough to shut the curtains, turn of the lights, and keep quiet. It's bascially been the Blitz in Interamnia since Taken King.
TFS campaign somehow reminds me of the StarCraft 2 DLC. I always felt weird that the swarm just choosed to stay in Char. The idea of sworm just chilled in one specific planet feels weird. For Savathun, she's thinking not only how to defeat The witness, but also what's going to happen after The witness is defeated. Now since nearly all races(hive not included) are humans' ally, she needs to prepare something to defend our assault. But I think this won't happen until Xivu is dead, considering now we have this echo things. Probably one of the episodes is going to be dealing witht Xivu's force and kill Xivu(probably gonna get power boosted by the echo).
sword logic 2: electric boogaloo
Something that I haven't seen anyone talk about, that I think cements Savathun as very clearly a villain, is that she was still *with* Saint when she was possessing Osiris. If they, um, did the devil's tango, that means she's a rapist. Idk, maybe the two no longer have sex--one of them is an old man and the other is a robot--but if they did, it's rape, both legally and ethically.
It is a little goofy how Katty we are with her still. Like obviously she has tricked us a bunch and she's an evil rock skeleton bug so we can't be friends with her. But you'd think after everything she's done like killing Nezerac, hiding the veil, getting chosen by the white ball, setting up the 15th wish, (probably purposely) putting herself in a position for Eris to to become the strongest hive God... you'd think that would change *something* about our relationship. It's like we all know she's not actually trying to kill us and it all comes down to "you are only helping us because it helped you!!" Which to me is like saying doctors are bad guys cuz they get paid well. It's like, yeah she's mean and torments us and always stays ahead but she does save humanity pretty much every time she's in the story these days
Yeah, sure she helps. She doesn't need to be a dick about it though.
She USED to need to be a dick about it tho! She used to have worms!
She started trying to blow up the Lost City in the Pale Heart before we actually killed the Witness. There's a mission about it and everything.
She USED to HAVE to. Old habits die hard
We have an inspector Clouseau/Cato relationship with her right now. The constant threat of her danger makes us stronger and more prepared. The Lucent Hive could literally be waiting in our fridge right now, waiting to ambush us before we’ve had our morning cereal. And that’s how they make us stronger.
She has killed billions of people and nearly condemned the entire Sol system to death by taking the Traveler.
she committed several hundred genocides and aggressively manipulated countless people including riven who used crow who killed cayde and ummun arath who she used to summon xivu to torobatl who promptly blew it up so yes i think savathun has done """some""" things we wouldn't do
Wouldn't we?
I mean, that's kind of deflection with regard to the things Savathun provably has done. We're talking millenia of serial xenocide. I genuinely think the majority of the allied characters and lightbearers in the game would just choose to let humanity go extinct if those were the only two options.
I killed 65 000 beings with a glaive and I'm not even 100% sure if they were enemies of humanity.
If they were friendly your reticle would've been green.