It was about a Celestial Golden Gun in damage, but way less cd. Bosses in Reckoning got 2-3 shot with that combo. But that was also a in a time where rally barricade and well locks would refill mags for the whole team, not buff reload speed.
other classes do it way better that’s the problem. how is that their quote unquote identity and Hunters do it way better. not to mention every time Titans excel at being Mr punch man they get nerfed. biggest salt is giving synths access to other classes so other than playing Banner what is even the point of playing Titan if you’re gonna punch shit?
I don’t think they should have gave other classes access to synthoceps. It’s part of the titans identity just being given away and diluted.
It’s the same feeling when bungie gave every other class devour.
Giving synthoceps and calibans to combination blow hunter was a stupid balance decision that should have never ever been made. It’s just as overpowered of a combination as prismatic on titan is under powered.
Circling back to Titan, sure there are outliers but melee titan on solar and strand are still very objectively good.
The major aspect that has and always will hold Titans back in raids is the lack of a ranged dps super. Twilight Arsenal was a good start, I suppose, but honestly, it's still pretty weak comparatively.
We’re not good at punching things and surviving long enough to do it again.
Also the amount of AOE/Knockback from bosses and major enemies makes it really hard to continue to punch things and not be a liability to the team. The problem comes down to survivability and the lack of it for some of the Titan’s kits. Prismatic really paints the picture of how little survival a Titan has without something like Banner of War or Sun Spots+Lorelie Splendor. It’s rough out there for a crayon muncher
I wasn’t talking about prismatic. That’s definitely underpowered and pigeonholed into triple consecration builds. But it’s not what I was talking about.
I was talking about titans as a whole. Solar titans and Strand titans are pretty dang good at punching. They suck at other things like far away enemies but punching is the one thing they’re really good at.
Yeah but we are getting sick of being forced to play green titan. Solar is good for killing easy stuff, but not really geared for bossing.
Hunters do the whole "punching class" thing so much better than titan, it makes me giggle lol.
Bungie slaughtered all forms of ranged melee build in several repeated attempts to murder the Throwing Hammer because it was being used to solo Riven. Instead of addressing the hammer directly they chose to nerf all ranged melees and remove synergy with them from practically everything. Classic Bungo.
Wasn’t that only due to a bug where you could facehug a large enemy, aim down and throw the hammer and it would do impact damage dozens of times per throw?
By why do they keep nerfing an entire class for really niche speedrunner exploits. Im just a normal sweat player but i feel like my class is getting dirted because of a .001%.
And then sometimes they nerf us for no reason? They killed bubble for pvp? Its a bummer.
Game balance is important no matter how few people are willing to put in the effort for the extreme ends. For the game to remain alive and for bungie to be able to not make every single piece of content a slog fest of -5 w/ surges, the game needs to be balanced. For the game to be balanced some things are gonna get nerfed and that's just how things go
They aren't. Calling Hunter a melee class because they have one specific melee that requires a specific build to do insane damage isn't making a good argument. If "best" is determined by capabilities then Titan by default is the best because they have a player who's soloed Pantheon and now the second encounter in Salvation.
I would also be concerned about said Hunter build. When they talked about "Powered Fists" From Knockout/Offensive Bulwark/Roaring Flames not procing exotics and mods anymore Combination Blow was mentioned in that same sentence. Methinks a nerf is incoming much as I don't like the idea of them nerfing the powered fists.
Would have to rework Liars then. Not that I am too concerned about it since even if it does get nerfed I don't see the nerf making the loop not doable anymore.
I think their plan is just to disable things on a case by case basis for individual items/exotics/mods. They've already disabled powered fists on Severance Enclosure, which would've given Titan a similar loop to the Caliban/Liars loop with Sev Enclosure/Synthos on the class item.
They aren’t. Calling Titan a melee class because they have one specific melee that requires a specific exotic with a specific catalyst to do insane damage isn’t making an argument.
Cute, but I'm not stating Titan has a melee identity based on that. I used it as an example to show how dumb it is to take a specific instance and apply it broadly.
Because the original comment was clearly a sarcastic joke highlighting the fact that Prismatic hunter with the new class item exotic, are straight up better than Titan in endgame environments. Spirit of the Assassin is the best exotic perk in the game for melee builds when considering endgame content. Hunters can get Spirit of the assassin, AND spirit of the liar, AND combination blow.
The best Titans can do is Strand Titan, however the interactions with 12p and grapple were nerfed, and even before they were nerfed, staying alive in endgame content enough to get melee kills off was difficult. Hunters Have invisibility on melee kill, plus grapple, plus blink. All of these things significantly increase survivability.
>Because the original comment was clearly a sarcastic joke
Didn't come off that way to me, but if it was intended as sarcasm then I will own up to misunderstanding.
>highlighting the fact that Prismatic hunter with the new class item exotic, are straight up better than Titan in endgame environments.
Even if that is the intended goal Highlighting one subclass being better than one class as a whole is a different argument than Whether the Titan is a melee focused class or not.
>Spirit of the Assassin is the best exotic perk in the game for melee builds when considering endgame content.
I'm not sure I agree simply because some projectiles that were introduced with the new enemies still track you even when invisible. Even if that wasn't the case it's still very possible for all 3 classes to get enough DR and some level of healing to survive in end game content. You do not need invisibility to make melee work in end game.
>Hunters can get Spirit of the assassin, AND spirit of the liar, AND combination blow.
If you were wanting to push your damage to the max with hunter you'd want Caliban+ liar and combination blow.
>The best Titans can do is Strand Titan
This ultimately is just circling back to my original argument. Just because a different class besides Titan has a specific build setup to do the most damage with melee does not mean that class is a melee class, nor does it mean Titan isn't a melee class.
The point is Titan SHOULDNT just be a melee class, and it’s frustrating that considering they ARE currently just the melee class, hunters have a better melee build than Titans. Hunters have unquestionably the best dps in the game, warlocks are unquestionably the best support class in the game, and Titan has as clear and melee, which both classes can do as good if not better.
>The point is Titan SHOULDNT just be a melee class, and it’s frustrating that considering they ARE currently just the melee class
Original topic discussion aside I do agree that Titan's should have more going on besides being the melee guy.
>hunters have a better melee build than Titans.
We will have to agree to disagree.
>Hunters have unquestionably the best dps in the game
With or without Still Hunt in the DPS rotation? Not looking for an argument here just genuine curiosity.
>Titan has as clear and melee, which both classes can do as good if not better.
Yeah everyone can add clear easily these days and have been able to for awhile. That being said I think the way in which each class approaches it is an appeal factor in it of itself. As for melee I will just have to disagree.
I can't think of a Warlock melee build that compares to either Hunter or Titan. But even if the statement were true I still prefer Titan melee options compared to both Hunter and Warlock. The fantasy for me is definitely there. Nothing the other two classes holds a candle to Thunder clap or Shiver strike. Concencration is really cool too.
While I can't think of Shiver strike being notable anywhere in pve I know both (especially with Prismatic) have top end pve viability. Though I know with thunder clap it definitely wasn't like this until TFS due to buffs as well as prismatic.
As for DPS, Hunters already were the best by far, and Still hunt only widened the gap.
With the melees, I misspoke about warlocks. I can’t really think of any worthwhile melee builds
For a while I thought it was the "Fuck you death" class, but uh.. not anymore....
They... use a lot of barriers/shields? So maybe if you're like, a shield fiend, then hey perfect.
Idk man I'm grasping at straws here.
Honestly if we could build into that and get buffs for it I would love that shit.
Void *kinda* has this, it could maybe use some work but it’s functional and I love it. Every other subclass not so much.
Strand has it, but Berserker really has almost everything.
I hope Prismatic will get some new aspects over time, ideally also I hope other light subclasses will be brought up to par. Sunbreaker is still in a decent place, but Striker specifically really needs something.
I dont count on prismatic getting new aspects, the problem with that is that it means all buffs to pris titan has to be to the already chosen aspects so who knows. Maybe one day a full titan rework can be done
The pure skill class, because that's what's going to carry most titans. I propose we add "titanbtw" after every accomplishment, much like ssfhc players in Path of Exile or vegans after anyone mentions food.
\*Checks notes* Uh the tank/berzerker/soldier class.
But we'll nerf arc's grenade build into the ground, nerf Bastion so that void's advertised overshield fantasy is dogwater and break stasis with Lightfail and give you only a bit of the functionality back
*I haven't played Stasis titan since Final Shape launched so maybe thats a bit better.
Because of multiplicative scaling. Titans are always one melee damage buff away from breaking the game.
Consider that two +200% melee buffs is a 9x multiplier. Add one more +200% and scrounge up a +50% from under the couch cushions, and you're in the funny number territory of 40.5x damage.
1-2 Punch itself is in a weird place in that respect - if I’m not mistaken, even the damage buff from Cross Counter, Liar’s Handshake/Spirit of the Liar’s Exotic perk, is harshly lower when 1-2 Punch is active for much the same reason. DIM and other sites even list it as a difference of Cross Counter giving 200% damage normally, but only 80% in combination with 1-2 Punch lol
I remember the days after solar 3.0 when you could stack 25% Radiant with 25% High Energy Fire for an almost permanent 55% weapon buff, not even counting vorpal, bait and switch and explosive light.
Fun times before they stopped HEF from stacking with Radiant
I don't know why they haven't just started limiting what stacks there. I mean they did it a while ago for other kinds of damage buffs, is it just too difficult to do in the code?
Yeah I think this is the root of the problem. They made a big pass (in Shadowkeep I think?) to get buff stacking under control, but they only addressed the global buffs and debuffs like Well, tractor cannon, etc., where the strongest buff wins instead of multiplying together. If they did that for melee damage (or maybe even all outgoing damage?) they wouldn't have to keep adding all these little corner case exceptions to keep the melee buff stacking under control. I want to believe that if they got rid of melee stacking they could go crazy with each individual buff... Synthos could go back to a flat 3x on everything instead of having exceptions for glaives, roaring flames, etc., Peregrine Greaves could go back to 5-6x it had originally, Wormgods could get un-nerfed, lots of things could be buffed and simplified if they just killed the stacking.
Because we keep soloing stuff they don't want us to, the first boss of the new raid being case in point 😂 I wish they could find the balance between the average player and the 0.1% Godslayers out here soloing raids
Hunter knives work but it's not like you're using them to kill bosses they're just thrown to get radiant up quickly.
I could be wrong but outside of 1 2 punch I don't even know what you could use to buff knife damage (outside of the new class items). They shouldn't work which is an issue but it's not like they're remotely an issue.
And its not like liar's and 1 2 punch have been nerfed many times before. Its still fun but no where near as good as it once was.
It would be nice if 1 2 punch worked with shield bash again but at the same time being able to kill a boss In a few short melee hits like you used to be able to was too far.
liars 12p is 50% damage increase which equals to 25% more damage in punch but at 3x combination blow its just not worth using imo it starts hitting dimnishing returns like it doesnt hurt to have but personally id rather not rely on it
niche but I use 1 2 punch shotgun with knife trick whenever I solo duality, you kill one bellkeeper with the shotgun and the other gets one shot by boosted knife trick. makes caital dps phase super simple
Before the multiple 1 2 p nerfs, you could use athrys with a shotgun to do about 70% of a GM champions health in 1 hit.
But they had to be stunned or you're dead, the exotic perk had to be activated and it still wasn't enough to bring them into finisher range most the time
And very few people use it because it just isn’t that great. Big number does the funny but it takes longer to build up, requires a precision hit, and doesn’t create sunspots. Ophidia is really only used in Crucible. Knives don’t nearly have the same damage stacking as hammers. The only build that comes near bonk on Hunter is Caliban’s which falls off a cliff once they stop one tapping (around -10 and up).
Bungie does this thing where they attach an exotic to a mid ability but instead of it making that ability do more damage, you just get to use it more.
So it's still mid. Just mid more often.
Ophidia Spathe, Shinobu's, Lucky Rasberry, Calibans (which is a 10/10 as long as you're fighting at level then turns into a 3/10 after legend)
And all of these would be good if the exotic buffed the damage too so it can be properly good in hard content
Thats gotta be a bug, I like to think I follow the TWABs closely, esspecially balance patches and I cant remember anything shuting down GT with those abilities.
Arc hunter has always been a melee class. They just got a stupid amount of synergy now with great aspects and exotic combos.
100% expect it to be nerfed.
hunters have always been a melee class literally arc hunter since d2 release whole thing is melee dodge to regain melee and melee again it was always good the only difference is that they nerfed the class with dumb melee damage and infinite passive health regen aka strand titan
Bungie wants to make Titans melee onetrick ponies while giving us pretty bad melee options.
A bunch of our melees require wind up (shoulder charges, thunderclap) or have terrible hit registration (shield throw, shiver strike)
Hammer throw and frenzied blade are the only good ones imo since they can be used from neutral without some prior requirement and don't straight up suck when used (unlike shield or shiver)
The melee aspects also are kinda filler, which is ok I guess but they've come to replace the neutral melee options we had before the 3.0 updates which I think was a huge mistake.
Titan just feels weird right now. I don't think they are unplayable but they do feel unsatisfying to pilot.
I was playing Hunter for the first time in campaign and discovered combination blow + Dodge + Stealth and let me tell you... I've been a titan main since day 1 D2 and nothing in the Titan kit has been that good at melee ever for me.
It's actually a sick joke now
As a Titan, my solution is for them to remove one-two punch from the game. I'm tired of that being everyone's go-to to say titans are broken. Once it's removed and the adjustment buffs are in place we should be fine.
Yea, I'd still rather take bungie's otp reliant melee than your idea, OTP pairs perfectly with melee, if there's one weapon that makes sense to use with a melee playstyle, that would be a shotgun, remove OTP and you essentially remove shotguns from PvE considering they have no other purpose, not to mention removing OTP then ''readjusting buffs'' would 100% be a huge net nerf to melee lol.
>you essentially remove shotguns from PvE
Not really. I like fun. Shotguns are fun. I use shotguns.
See the trend?
What I don't like is hunters being better punchers than titans.
Doesn't matter if you like shotguns when in a general sense of the game they have no purpose outside of OTP. You already risk by getting yourself to be within shotgunning range of a enemy in harder content, and you want to remove the only rewarding part of it, which is OTP, where's the fun with that if you don't mind me asking?
Gun go boom.
Game Feel is a very real thing even if it's not tangible. Idgaf about numbers or dying. What's rewarding? The sound and feel of the impact.
The only titan class ability that synchronizes with it being a melee class is the thruster. The barricades suggest that the titan should be more like a sniper class or a cover shooter class. I wish more build options were given for that kind of playstyle because I enjoy clicking heads from a distance behind my barricade.
Imo titans are the lock this area down class. Prismatic kind of confirmed that for me with the aspects when they chose lash instead of BoW. If you lean into it you do lock down areas/groups quite easily. Suspend grenade, lash, trance grenade, stasis wall nade all fill that roll.
I think Bungie is trying to get titans to "tank" without directly creating a tank roll. It's just going to take time to find that setup. Granted tanking only matters in hard content which most players aren't doing anyway. Just like how the still hunt celestial build only really matters in hard content because easy content anything works.
I didn't say it was the best at it. I just don't see any other goalpost they could have for titan design.
I do think stasis turrets can lock down an area but they only slow 1 target at a time. If you need to stop 3 majors I'd rather the suspend nade/lash.
It's all dependent on what you need in a scenario.
even still hunt being kinda broken it still not 5 million in ONE ability lol a perfect rotation of 2 nighthawk shots rockets and still hunt weaved in between BARELY scrape by 6 million with surges, still hunt will have its damage reduced eventually to atleast be the damage of nighthawk or lower than nighthawk, but it still not nearly as strong as 12p shoulder charge on witch queen release you could literally one shot gambit bosses which made gambit unwinnable unless you had a titan, 1 phase rhulk was either thundercrash titans with fallingstar or shoulder charge
Sure, you have to use both exotics to do it. But Nighthawk was already one of the best hunter exotics for boss damage anyway (last I checked anyway, SES is probably better) so it’s not like you’re having to sacrifice your exotic armor slot
Sure bro I’m certain looping celestial golden guns isn’t broken at all. You just do more damage using just a special weapon than a guy using a full weapon rotation, nothing broken there surely.
And it'll be nerfed just as the titans were
Not sure why we're acting as if still hunt being this strong is permanent, every time hunters have had something that strong its been nerfed, liars, star eaters, arc staff, YAS etc
Pretty much. Would allow them to make stronger builds while stopping broken shit happening that results in them nerfing builds to where they’re not useful
They'd definitely notice.
They're in here doing math on surge damage.
And then we'd get comments like "Bungie why are you artificially slowing us down even further, we already have delta, health bar phases and champions!"
Because they did that for each of those individual changes when they came out already. They are *currently* bitching about the delta, and the champion bitching is relatively constant.
i mean a healthgate in terms of how much damage you can do in one attack (ie 5mil shoulder charge) not health gates on the healthbar, i still want to be able to one phase all bosses, just without insane buff stacking or glitches.
It's not a ranged melee issue, IIRC it's a timer issue. Shoulder Charge takes too much time to start up, idk what the story is for Consecration though, Throwing Hammer would work for sure.
Thunderclap *mayybe* if you "instant" do it, not Ballistic Slam though. Shield Toss can but that feels like a waste as it isn't a single target damage melee.
Another part is melee stacking. Some stuff might not work (outside of timer issues) for balancing reasons. Melee stacking has historically always been a balancing issue just look at the Prismatic Hunter build lol
I'd argue it's a mix of timing and compatibility issues really.
Because of that you really only have 3/4 powered melee you can take advantage of OTP with. Bonk, strand, shield, and sometimes consecration if you can time it right. Of those four you really only want to use it for bonk or strand since they're immediate, while you can with a shield it's like you said. It's a bit of a waste on a single target, especially since it's a source of over shield for a void titan.
It's also kind of pointless on most supers too, since you're gonna be one shoting most enemies anyways so why waste the ammo. Unless you want to just have a bit of extra fuck you for that first mob or you're gonna Leroy Jenkins it into a boss it doesn't make much sense.
The main reason, in my eyes, people are seeing it as useless now is because you can't spam the bonk hammer like you could before the regen delay. It was always like this for the rest of the melee options, but bonk hammer was just so broken with it that no one cared to look at the other melee options with it.
>If Titans are meant to be the melee class...
So I want to make it clear up front that I understand the reason this question gets asked is because what the community believes is an identity doesn't match up with what the devs make as identities. But these questions are getting a bit out of hand at this point.
I will repeat myself here, melee is a core part to Titan's identity. They have the most unique melee options in terms of mechanical behavior. But more to the point their kits (both baked in and for exotics) are general melee damage bonuses. Or another way to word it is that melee is a core part of their gameplay loop across all of their subclasses.
Last thing of note here is Bungie does not nor hasn't (imo pretty much ever) drawn a hard line at what classes can do. Like many associate Hunter with having movement options. But Bungie doesn't take that perception and only allow Hunters to have movement options.
>why does the "1-2 Punch" perk not work with most abilities?
The simple answer is buff stacking. How 1-2 punch works specifically requires exceptions/specific interactions in order to keep some semblance of balance. Then you look at Titan that gets to have a huge amount of resources that are stackable buffs that would apply to their melee. So suddenly Titans are always 1 or 2 buffs/changes away from breaking the game again.
Or to put it a different way, Combination blow Hunter builds are allowed to exist because they can only ever exist in a specific way and thus can easily be accounted for and if need be, adjusted safely. 1-2 punch has to be kept away from most of Titan because if their lethal weapons get their hands on it chances are it's probably going to break something.
>Last thing of note here is Bungie does not nor hasn't (imo pretty much ever) drawn a hard line at what classes can do.
Tell that to the Bungie dev during the LightFall vidoc that said, "Titans we love you, but you are the guy holding the fist on the cover."
While they haven't drawn any official lines in the sand, that statement says a lot on how they view Titans.
That said, you're not wrong on the rest of it.
I wouldn't really take one individuals statement as how the dev team handles Titans as a whole. Unless the statement came from the design lead then maybe worry a little lol
It was stated by Kevin Yanes, a design lead, in this interview. So not just a random dev, safe to say there's reason to worry lol.
https://www.gamesradar.com/destiny-2-lightfall-strand-preview/
You can find it towards the end of the discussion about the Titan Strand super.
Because damage calc is based on multipliers instead of additive bonuses or additive with a cap or any other system that's easier to balance. It needs to be redone entirely.
I'm a titan fan but I do think the hammer cooldown was necessary, looking back on it it was the most broken shit ever to exist. Anyways solar is still one of the best titan subclasses and hammer is still an amazing melee.
The point is you aren't supposed to be able to just spam it, once you admit that spamming the hammer isn't a build anymore but more of a tool to proc sol Invictus or cure or just quickly kill something then you realize it's still really good.
And since you get the charge back there's no penalty to use it on a consecration build.
1 second cool down on a build that constantly has restoration up and gives boosted normal melees capable of killing trash ads. It’s still insanely good, you just have to intersperse a normal melee.
It definitely needed to be reigned in, but I don't think it was completely the worst way to do it if they made one small change. If the delay counted even if the hammer wasn't picked up it'd be fine, but to risk your life to chase a missed bonk and *still* have the delay is just stupid.
Sure in lower end content it's not a big deal, but in higher end you're definitely going to need to regen immediately and not being able to do so really sucks.
Truth be told though, I don't know how else they could've reigned it in without it feeling bad. It was broken for so long any change made would've felt bad.
The cooldown should start on throw not pickup that way you could use it more at range like they want with no penalty while still disincentivizing up close hammer spam
Wouldn't that just be way worse since they would have to make the cooldown longer if it started on throw? Like, up close you use your melee, and instead of having to wait 1 sexond it would be like 5 seconds. That just sounds way worse to me, when you can just shoot far away enemies.
it would need to be longer than the current cooldown, yes, but not as long as 5 seconds; today it is like 1.5 seconds, so up close it should remain the same
basically you throw it and it either falls on your feet or rebounds on yur hand and it needs to be unusable for those same 1.5 seconds; it's possible currently the pick up is not 100% instant so the cool down may need to increase a little but shouldn't be higher than 2 seconds at most
It definitely did. Maybe could have been better then how they did it but I’m certainly not upset with what they chose. Just could have been executed better
It's literally still an amazing melee, how the fuck is it weak.
Also that would keep you being able to get infinite healing from picking the hammer up over and over which would still be dumb
It’s terrible on warlock too. It only works with a single melee (plus grapple, I guess):
Grapple Melee
Chain Lightning
Doesn’t really make sense why it works with throwing knifes. They’re just as ranged as the titan and warlock ranged melees.
There's nothing as funny as bungie killing every single fun or powerful thing titan manages to make while giving warlocks infinite explosions and hunters get God killing melee strikes that proc ignition endlessly and they stay immortal and invisible while doing so and also get 2 celestial night hawk shots for game breaking damage.
But God forbid titans can actually use glaives or can throw more storm grenades than usual.
It's comedy how much they hate titans.
Because Titans seem to be impossible for Bungie to really balance. We're the melee class, so a lot of our exotics and builds are fully around it.
This also means we break melee to an absurd degree. Like hammer for instance, you could pop on synthocepts, tractor cannon, and a 1-2 shotty. Line up all three and you now have a Titan spamming hammer taking chunks out of bosses like it's no one's business.
Now apply this kind of broken build crafting for most aspects of Titan melee and you end up where we are. A class who has no actual identity because Bungie doesn't know how to truly balance it without either making it OP or useless.
Granted this mainly applies due to the really high level players. They find these builds and wipe the floor of everything with them, normal players get a nice power fantasy when they can line things up occasionally.
The short answer: It was super overpowered
The long answer...well, it's long. The most part I remember was that it let you solo quite a few raid bosses.
Titans are on their warlock kick rn. Dominate the meta for a long time, perfectly fine being OP, and now that it’s not as broken there’s an agenda against them from Bungie 😂
all three classes have had eras where they were neglected; 2 things can be true. i remember the infamous hunter=kick days so yeah a class has the right to be loud about their neglect. Titans do seem to have a target on their back when during Lightfall a dev literally said “Titans we love you but…” so yea it kinda seems like there’s favoritism at play at the moment.
This has been going on since y1 D1. Warlocks were OP for mad long and had the best melee. Hunters were bad and they nerfed blade dancer anyway which was hilarious. Titans were op for one week after sunbreaker was released. It's a ongoing cycle of nonsense I just play for fun.
This might actually return after the feedback from TFS. The raid encounters were designed as such that a burst of damage was preferred. I wouldn't be surprised if they reverted the change.
i doubt that you see most raids are designed with one strategy in mind rhulk for example wouldnt work with golden gun nighthawk especially since div is messing with artifact, crota too having one raid designed for high range precision dps is fine imo unless every raid encounter in the future is exactly like this i dont think its a problem
Titans are in a tough spot. They are supposed to be the close-range tank class. Get to close, and you take a lot of damage. But for a while, that damage was far too high, and in terms of survivability, they could out survive way more than what was fair. The more you can survive, the more damage you can deal, which is why they are in a tough spot. One tiny buff in some places can make them far too good aswell as taking a small buff from somewhere can make them the most useless class. They SHOULD be the melee class, but it seems they don't know where to go with it after strand being a full-on titan melee class and being completely busted compared to everything else. With the nerfs to strand and the kit it got for prismatic, they've taken a back seat closer to a support class. The void setup has a huge amount of potential for them to be the defensive team tank without dealing out insane damage which is where they should go with it, but that caught alot of nerfs making it useless in comparison to the other classes. A couple buffs to void, I think, would put Titan in the right direction.
It's really hard to call prismatic Titan a support class when we don't have any support tools that feed into a loop.
Diamond lances freezes something, and that's all.
Drengr suspends a few things, and that's all.
Knockout heals us a bit and buffs melee damage, but doesn't provide any benefit to our teammates and isn't potent enough to enable melee combat in late-game, high damage encounters.
Consecration exists solely to be paired with knockout and frenzied blade so we can kinda spam aoe melee. However, longer cooldowns mean this is extremely limited, even with fragments. Oh, and no benefit to our teammates.
Unbreakable is weak, and we don't have enough uptime on our grenade to justify using it. Not to mention it provides almost no benefit to our teammates unless they're crammed into our back pockets.
Closest thing we have to a support tool is Twilight arsenal, but Tractor Cannon's existence and sheer usability makes that a hard sell.
Prismatic Titan not getting any of their support aspects is what I dislike most about it.
I’ve played Prism Hunter and Warlock and actually want to use the new class. Titan I would rather use Solar, Stasis or Strand so I can actually do something and survive.
People like the triple consecration on Prism Titan. But you can easily get constant consecration with regular solar titan while also maintaining all the parts of Solar and not immediately folding when something looks at you funny.
We just had a whole 5 month season where Titans got to shit on every boss with grapple points and 1-2 punch shotguns. If you're wondering why 1-2 Punch isn't better, Season of the Wish is why
The Answer to 99% of All problems with abilities is, as is usual & "Tradition" . . . . PvP !
They use Balance as a Four letter word and ruin any/all Power Fantasy because of it.
Bungie I feel like is having the same problem that Arrowhead is having right now with Helldivers:
An obsession with balance. There's a *ceaseless* pursuit for balance, everything has to be balanced. What then happens is two things. One, with a sandbox as expansive as Destiny's, SOMETHING will always be OP. It's just the way it is. Two, stuff becomes less fun if you don't run the meta loadout, because they also have a hardon for making everything at least somewhat challenging, rather than adding difficulty toggles to more activities, and as a result you have to run what keeps you alive/deals the most damage. So you then see very little variety in what builds people are running. Which signals to bungie that they need to pump out more nerfs!
Remember when they nerfed 1-2 punch’s damage multiplier because you could get too high damage numbers with melee boosting exotics, instead of putting a damage clamp on those exotics? I remember and I’m still bitter about it.
Nerfing 1-2 punch instead of nerfing the exotics interactions with it essentially killed the perk for anything outside of those exotics. If you want to use 1-2 punch effectively, you pretty much have to use those exotics now, because by itself its damage is pathetic.
They nerfed it because 1-2 punch has been a damage stack edge case nightmare even beyond Titan. It was a perk made before we had a ton of this melee ability damage stack spam and as such became comically overtuned when that arrived. The nerf makes sense it’s good for the game’s health.
But by nerfing it, they’ve made it to where the only use case for it is to stack tons of damage on top of it. Using it by itself, or maybe with one source of damage increase, is pitiful.
If they cap the damage you can do with melee, for example by x10, then you allow for other builds to be effective and provides multiple avenues for titans to get to the same result, while it also prevents titans from nuking everything with fists.
For example, if you use pre nerf 1-2 punch with max wormgods you get 3.0 x 3.75 = x11.25 damage. This is just two buffs. With the damage cap, that’s brought down to x10.0.
Let’s use a more extreme example, pre nerf 1-2 punch with max wormgods plus offensive bulwark overshield and a banner of war titan beside me. That’s 3.0 x 3.75 x 2.0 x 1.4 = x31.5 damage. This is insane, far too high. But, with the damage cap, no worries. It’s capped at x10.0.
It sounds like a nerf, which it kind of is to an extent. But it’s giving titans a decent damage multiplier to work with to still deal high damage, without them ballooning to insane heights. It also allows you multiple ways to get to that damage cap, without having to build 100% into melee stacking.
Edit; also, the x10 cap was just an example, I’m not advocating for 10 being the cap specifically. Obviously the optimal multiplier would need to be found by Bungie.
It’s like none of you watch byf 10 hour videos.
Titans are not the melee class. They are the ‘leyroyyyyyyyyyyy jenkins’ class. When someone else is in danger, don’t think, just ‘W’ toward the enemy.
There is a reason saint 14 has a dent in his helmet, and not his gauntlet.
I miss the days of 1-2 Punch Peregrine Greaves
I have to see vids of that because it sounds amazing
Used to be able to get a shot off while keeping your momentum and then immediately shoulder charge
It was about a Celestial Golden Gun in damage, but way less cd. Bosses in Reckoning got 2-3 shot with that combo. But that was also a in a time where rally barricade and well locks would refill mags for the whole team, not buff reload speed.
Bungie wants Titans to be the class that punches things. They just don’t want Titans to be the class that is GOOD at punching things.
You've cracked the code
I’m an Arc Hunter Main, the code has been cracked since Knockout stop being refreshable.
To expand, I used to "main" Titan. I still use my Titan but arc 3.0 and the thruster led to me spending all my time on my hunter.
I mained Void Titan for a while, when Synthoceps worked and Glaives functioned.
Punching the air rn
At this point, I don't think Bungie knows what to do with Titans at all.
Solar and Strand Titan is already good at punching things. I don’t understand why you think titans are bad at punching things.
other classes do it way better that’s the problem. how is that their quote unquote identity and Hunters do it way better. not to mention every time Titans excel at being Mr punch man they get nerfed. biggest salt is giving synths access to other classes so other than playing Banner what is even the point of playing Titan if you’re gonna punch shit?
I don’t think they should have gave other classes access to synthoceps. It’s part of the titans identity just being given away and diluted. It’s the same feeling when bungie gave every other class devour. Giving synthoceps and calibans to combination blow hunter was a stupid balance decision that should have never ever been made. It’s just as overpowered of a combination as prismatic on titan is under powered. Circling back to Titan, sure there are outliers but melee titan on solar and strand are still very objectively good.
The major aspect that has and always will hold Titans back in raids is the lack of a ranged dps super. Twilight Arsenal was a good start, I suppose, but honestly, it's still pretty weak comparatively.
We’re not good at punching things and surviving long enough to do it again. Also the amount of AOE/Knockback from bosses and major enemies makes it really hard to continue to punch things and not be a liability to the team. The problem comes down to survivability and the lack of it for some of the Titan’s kits. Prismatic really paints the picture of how little survival a Titan has without something like Banner of War or Sun Spots+Lorelie Splendor. It’s rough out there for a crayon muncher
I wasn’t talking about prismatic. That’s definitely underpowered and pigeonholed into triple consecration builds. But it’s not what I was talking about. I was talking about titans as a whole. Solar titans and Strand titans are pretty dang good at punching. They suck at other things like far away enemies but punching is the one thing they’re really good at.
So you're talking about Titans as a whole, by saying that because 2 subclasses are good the other 4 are ok being bad?
Yeah but we are getting sick of being forced to play green titan. Solar is good for killing easy stuff, but not really geared for bossing. Hunters do the whole "punching class" thing so much better than titan, it makes me giggle lol.
How can you be good at something when it's not even an option in some dps phases..
There’s more to this game than dps phases for a specific boss on contest raid day
Ya, because the issue never comes up outside of that one encounter.
Bungie slaughtered all forms of ranged melee build in several repeated attempts to murder the Throwing Hammer because it was being used to solo Riven. Instead of addressing the hammer directly they chose to nerf all ranged melees and remove synergy with them from practically everything. Classic Bungo.
Hammer wasn't just soloing Riven. It was putting out 9 figure DPS numbers
Wasn’t that only due to a bug where you could facehug a large enemy, aim down and throw the hammer and it would do impact damage dozens of times per throw?
I just remember like two shooting Atheon
Yeah that was the multihit bug
By why do they keep nerfing an entire class for really niche speedrunner exploits. Im just a normal sweat player but i feel like my class is getting dirted because of a .001%. And then sometimes they nerf us for no reason? They killed bubble for pvp? Its a bummer.
Game balance is important no matter how few people are willing to put in the effort for the extreme ends. For the game to remain alive and for bungie to be able to not make every single piece of content a slog fest of -5 w/ surges, the game needs to be balanced. For the game to be balanced some things are gonna get nerfed and that's just how things go
Titans aren't the Melee class. That's Hunters.
Yeah, I was gonna say this. "If Titan's are the melee class, why are Hunter's the best melee class?"
They aren't. Calling Hunter a melee class because they have one specific melee that requires a specific build to do insane damage isn't making a good argument. If "best" is determined by capabilities then Titan by default is the best because they have a player who's soloed Pantheon and now the second encounter in Salvation.
I would also be concerned about said Hunter build. When they talked about "Powered Fists" From Knockout/Offensive Bulwark/Roaring Flames not procing exotics and mods anymore Combination Blow was mentioned in that same sentence. Methinks a nerf is incoming much as I don't like the idea of them nerfing the powered fists.
Would have to rework Liars then. Not that I am too concerned about it since even if it does get nerfed I don't see the nerf making the loop not doable anymore.
I think their plan is just to disable things on a case by case basis for individual items/exotics/mods. They've already disabled powered fists on Severance Enclosure, which would've given Titan a similar loop to the Caliban/Liars loop with Sev Enclosure/Synthos on the class item.
That makes the most sense then.
They aren’t. Calling Titan a melee class because they have one specific melee that requires a specific exotic with a specific catalyst to do insane damage isn’t making an argument.
Cute, but I'm not stating Titan has a melee identity based on that. I used it as an example to show how dumb it is to take a specific instance and apply it broadly.
Because the original comment was clearly a sarcastic joke highlighting the fact that Prismatic hunter with the new class item exotic, are straight up better than Titan in endgame environments. Spirit of the Assassin is the best exotic perk in the game for melee builds when considering endgame content. Hunters can get Spirit of the assassin, AND spirit of the liar, AND combination blow. The best Titans can do is Strand Titan, however the interactions with 12p and grapple were nerfed, and even before they were nerfed, staying alive in endgame content enough to get melee kills off was difficult. Hunters Have invisibility on melee kill, plus grapple, plus blink. All of these things significantly increase survivability.
>Because the original comment was clearly a sarcastic joke Didn't come off that way to me, but if it was intended as sarcasm then I will own up to misunderstanding. >highlighting the fact that Prismatic hunter with the new class item exotic, are straight up better than Titan in endgame environments. Even if that is the intended goal Highlighting one subclass being better than one class as a whole is a different argument than Whether the Titan is a melee focused class or not. >Spirit of the Assassin is the best exotic perk in the game for melee builds when considering endgame content. I'm not sure I agree simply because some projectiles that were introduced with the new enemies still track you even when invisible. Even if that wasn't the case it's still very possible for all 3 classes to get enough DR and some level of healing to survive in end game content. You do not need invisibility to make melee work in end game. >Hunters can get Spirit of the assassin, AND spirit of the liar, AND combination blow. If you were wanting to push your damage to the max with hunter you'd want Caliban+ liar and combination blow. >The best Titans can do is Strand Titan This ultimately is just circling back to my original argument. Just because a different class besides Titan has a specific build setup to do the most damage with melee does not mean that class is a melee class, nor does it mean Titan isn't a melee class.
The point is Titan SHOULDNT just be a melee class, and it’s frustrating that considering they ARE currently just the melee class, hunters have a better melee build than Titans. Hunters have unquestionably the best dps in the game, warlocks are unquestionably the best support class in the game, and Titan has as clear and melee, which both classes can do as good if not better.
>The point is Titan SHOULDNT just be a melee class, and it’s frustrating that considering they ARE currently just the melee class Original topic discussion aside I do agree that Titan's should have more going on besides being the melee guy. >hunters have a better melee build than Titans. We will have to agree to disagree. >Hunters have unquestionably the best dps in the game With or without Still Hunt in the DPS rotation? Not looking for an argument here just genuine curiosity. >Titan has as clear and melee, which both classes can do as good if not better. Yeah everyone can add clear easily these days and have been able to for awhile. That being said I think the way in which each class approaches it is an appeal factor in it of itself. As for melee I will just have to disagree. I can't think of a Warlock melee build that compares to either Hunter or Titan. But even if the statement were true I still prefer Titan melee options compared to both Hunter and Warlock. The fantasy for me is definitely there. Nothing the other two classes holds a candle to Thunder clap or Shiver strike. Concencration is really cool too. While I can't think of Shiver strike being notable anywhere in pve I know both (especially with Prismatic) have top end pve viability. Though I know with thunder clap it definitely wasn't like this until TFS due to buffs as well as prismatic.
As for DPS, Hunters already were the best by far, and Still hunt only widened the gap. With the melees, I misspoke about warlocks. I can’t really think of any worthwhile melee builds
Then what are Titans supposed to even be
For a while I thought it was the "Fuck you death" class, but uh.. not anymore.... They... use a lot of barriers/shields? So maybe if you're like, a shield fiend, then hey perfect. Idk man I'm grasping at straws here.
Honestly if we could build into that and get buffs for it I would love that shit. Void *kinda* has this, it could maybe use some work but it’s functional and I love it. Every other subclass not so much.
Strand has it, but Berserker really has almost everything. I hope Prismatic will get some new aspects over time, ideally also I hope other light subclasses will be brought up to par. Sunbreaker is still in a decent place, but Striker specifically really needs something.
I dont count on prismatic getting new aspects, the problem with that is that it means all buffs to pris titan has to be to the already chosen aspects so who knows. Maybe one day a full titan rework can be done
They're supposed to be defensive specialists but the crucible crowd whined too much so all their defensive abilities got nerfed in pve
The third class
The class formerly known as
The pure skill class, because that's what's going to carry most titans. I propose we add "titanbtw" after every accomplishment, much like ssfhc players in Path of Exile or vegans after anyone mentions food.
Present. Sometimes.
\*Checks notes* Uh the tank/berzerker/soldier class. But we'll nerf arc's grenade build into the ground, nerf Bastion so that void's advertised overshield fantasy is dogwater and break stasis with Lightfail and give you only a bit of the functionality back *I haven't played Stasis titan since Final Shape launched so maybe thats a bit better.
We're the throw-away class that they can spend very little time on.
We’re just kinda screwed in some ways. Still good in others
Titans are in limbo rn honestly
With warlocks coming in second, they can clear a room with a lightning surge necrotic and gain devour from it
Why aren’t hunters soloing every boss in the game using melee as their main source of damage then
They're too busy worshipping at the alter of Cayde.
Because of multiplicative scaling. Titans are always one melee damage buff away from breaking the game. Consider that two +200% melee buffs is a 9x multiplier. Add one more +200% and scrounge up a +50% from under the couch cushions, and you're in the funny number territory of 40.5x damage.
1-2 Punch itself is in a weird place in that respect - if I’m not mistaken, even the damage buff from Cross Counter, Liar’s Handshake/Spirit of the Liar’s Exotic perk, is harshly lower when 1-2 Punch is active for much the same reason. DIM and other sites even list it as a difference of Cross Counter giving 200% damage normally, but only 80% in combination with 1-2 Punch lol
Bungie loves adding multiple ways for you get melee damage buffs and then being surprised and confused when they stack and make big numbers
I remember the days after solar 3.0 when you could stack 25% Radiant with 25% High Energy Fire for an almost permanent 55% weapon buff, not even counting vorpal, bait and switch and explosive light. Fun times before they stopped HEF from stacking with Radiant
I don't know why they haven't just started limiting what stacks there. I mean they did it a while ago for other kinds of damage buffs, is it just too difficult to do in the code?
Yeah I think this is the root of the problem. They made a big pass (in Shadowkeep I think?) to get buff stacking under control, but they only addressed the global buffs and debuffs like Well, tractor cannon, etc., where the strongest buff wins instead of multiplying together. If they did that for melee damage (or maybe even all outgoing damage?) they wouldn't have to keep adding all these little corner case exceptions to keep the melee buff stacking under control. I want to believe that if they got rid of melee stacking they could go crazy with each individual buff... Synthos could go back to a flat 3x on everything instead of having exceptions for glaives, roaring flames, etc., Peregrine Greaves could go back to 5-6x it had originally, Wormgods could get un-nerfed, lots of things could be buffed and simplified if they just killed the stacking.
Sure, but now HUNTERS have a way to get over 2000x melee damage on prismatic? And thats not game breaking?
Of course not. Hunters are the damage class. They get to deal damage without it being a problem. Better not see that shit on a Titan though /s
As of TFS you can’t grapple melee after shooting a weapon either
Because we keep soloing stuff they don't want us to, the first boss of the new raid being case in point 😂 I wish they could find the balance between the average player and the 0.1% Godslayers out here soloing raids
He used a bug to glitch the wipe mechanics, it's not as if it was legit.
Hunter knives work but it's not like you're using them to kill bosses they're just thrown to get radiant up quickly. I could be wrong but outside of 1 2 punch I don't even know what you could use to buff knife damage (outside of the new class items). They shouldn't work which is an issue but it's not like they're remotely an issue. And its not like liar's and 1 2 punch have been nerfed many times before. Its still fun but no where near as good as it once was. It would be nice if 1 2 punch worked with shield bash again but at the same time being able to kill a boss In a few short melee hits like you used to be able to was too far.
liars 12p is 50% damage increase which equals to 25% more damage in punch but at 3x combination blow its just not worth using imo it starts hitting dimnishing returns like it doesnt hurt to have but personally id rather not rely on it
niche but I use 1 2 punch shotgun with knife trick whenever I solo duality, you kill one bellkeeper with the shotgun and the other gets one shot by boosted knife trick. makes caital dps phase super simple
You can buff the heavy knife with Athrys' Embrace. Believe there's a chest piece for knife trick, but I forget the name
Before the multiple 1 2 p nerfs, you could use athrys with a shotgun to do about 70% of a GM champions health in 1 hit. But they had to be stunned or you're dead, the exotic perk had to be activated and it still wasn't enough to bring them into finisher range most the time
And very few people use it because it just isn’t that great. Big number does the funny but it takes longer to build up, requires a precision hit, and doesn’t create sunspots. Ophidia is really only used in Crucible. Knives don’t nearly have the same damage stacking as hammers. The only build that comes near bonk on Hunter is Caliban’s which falls off a cliff once they stop one tapping (around -10 and up).
Yeah Caliban falling off so hard will never not be tragic.
Bungie does this thing where they attach an exotic to a mid ability but instead of it making that ability do more damage, you just get to use it more. So it's still mid. Just mid more often. Ophidia Spathe, Shinobu's, Lucky Rasberry, Calibans (which is a 10/10 as long as you're fighting at level then turns into a 3/10 after legend) And all of these would be good if the exotic buffed the damage too so it can be properly good in hard content
the arthrys combo is insanely hard to pull off knife trick is the easiest but even then i dont think its worth running in most situations
I'm more salty at golden tricorn being changed to not work with the sheid throw or the hammer
Is this a change that has already meant to have happened? They both work with golden tricorn right now.
I just tried and they both work
I know tricorn is bugged with some abilities on prismatic. Like threaded spike on prismatic hunter.
The bug is that the super needs to be the same, the ability doesn’t matter
Wait really? Why on earth
Lol peak Destiny Reddit: "I'm salty about (thing that isn't true)" - Dozens of upvotes
That's probably a bug.
Thats gotta be a bug, I like to think I follow the TWABs closely, esspecially balance patches and I cant remember anything shuting down GT with those abilities.
Gotta be a bug if true
What?
ATM hunters are the melee class. It’s a fucked up Situation bungie
Arc hunter has always been a melee class. They just got a stupid amount of synergy now with great aspects and exotic combos. 100% expect it to be nerfed.
hunters have always been a melee class literally arc hunter since d2 release whole thing is melee dodge to regain melee and melee again it was always good the only difference is that they nerfed the class with dumb melee damage and infinite passive health regen aka strand titan
I swear if they nerf 1-2 punch strand the only fun and viable build on titan right now
Bungie wants to make Titans melee onetrick ponies while giving us pretty bad melee options. A bunch of our melees require wind up (shoulder charges, thunderclap) or have terrible hit registration (shield throw, shiver strike) Hammer throw and frenzied blade are the only good ones imo since they can be used from neutral without some prior requirement and don't straight up suck when used (unlike shield or shiver) The melee aspects also are kinda filler, which is ok I guess but they've come to replace the neutral melee options we had before the 3.0 updates which I think was a huge mistake. Titan just feels weird right now. I don't think they are unplayable but they do feel unsatisfying to pilot.
I was playing Hunter for the first time in campaign and discovered combination blow + Dodge + Stealth and let me tell you... I've been a titan main since day 1 D2 and nothing in the Titan kit has been that good at melee ever for me. It's actually a sick joke now
youve never used arc hunter? it has literally been the same playstyle since start of d2
As a Titan, my solution is for them to remove one-two punch from the game. I'm tired of that being everyone's go-to to say titans are broken. Once it's removed and the adjustment buffs are in place we should be fine.
Yea, I'd still rather take bungie's otp reliant melee than your idea, OTP pairs perfectly with melee, if there's one weapon that makes sense to use with a melee playstyle, that would be a shotgun, remove OTP and you essentially remove shotguns from PvE considering they have no other purpose, not to mention removing OTP then ''readjusting buffs'' would 100% be a huge net nerf to melee lol.
>you essentially remove shotguns from PvE Not really. I like fun. Shotguns are fun. I use shotguns. See the trend? What I don't like is hunters being better punchers than titans.
Doesn't matter if you like shotguns when in a general sense of the game they have no purpose outside of OTP. You already risk by getting yourself to be within shotgunning range of a enemy in harder content, and you want to remove the only rewarding part of it, which is OTP, where's the fun with that if you don't mind me asking?
Gun go boom. Game Feel is a very real thing even if it's not tangible. Idgaf about numbers or dying. What's rewarding? The sound and feel of the impact.
The only titan class ability that synchronizes with it being a melee class is the thruster. The barricades suggest that the titan should be more like a sniper class or a cover shooter class. I wish more build options were given for that kind of playstyle because I enjoy clicking heads from a distance behind my barricade.
Ya, Barricade is essentially a relic at this point. On Strand it makes even less sense.
Imo titans are the lock this area down class. Prismatic kind of confirmed that for me with the aspects when they chose lash instead of BoW. If you lean into it you do lock down areas/groups quite easily. Suspend grenade, lash, trance grenade, stasis wall nade all fill that roll. I think Bungie is trying to get titans to "tank" without directly creating a tank roll. It's just going to take time to find that setup. Granted tanking only matters in hard content which most players aren't doing anyway. Just like how the still hunt celestial build only really matters in hard content because easy content anything works.
One stastis turret can "lock an area down" better than all the options you mentioned. Combined.
I didn't say it was the best at it. I just don't see any other goalpost they could have for titan design. I do think stasis turrets can lock down an area but they only slow 1 target at a time. If you need to stop 3 majors I'd rather the suspend nade/lash. It's all dependent on what you need in a scenario.
Well, until they introduce aggro. The whole tanking thing isn't going to work.
the shoulder charge 1-2p build had to be nerfed, its not that healthy if you can do 5 million damage with one ability.
Not saying it is healthy, but as a hunter main. Still hunt exists and is arguably better in 90% of situations
even still hunt being kinda broken it still not 5 million in ONE ability lol a perfect rotation of 2 nighthawk shots rockets and still hunt weaved in between BARELY scrape by 6 million with surges, still hunt will have its damage reduced eventually to atleast be the damage of nighthawk or lower than nighthawk, but it still not nearly as strong as 12p shoulder charge on witch queen release you could literally one shot gambit bosses which made gambit unwinnable unless you had a titan, 1 phase rhulk was either thundercrash titans with fallingstar or shoulder charge
Still Hunt is almost guaranteed to be nerfed to be brought in line with Izanagi just in the Energy slot.
Not saying it's balanced but nighthawk still hunt requires both exotic slots taken up to get max damage
Sure, you have to use both exotics to do it. But Nighthawk was already one of the best hunter exotics for boss damage anyway (last I checked anyway, SES is probably better) so it’s not like you’re having to sacrifice your exotic armor slot
Nighthawk is currently better than SES and has been for a bit due to it being instant and pre-poppable
And has no setup in solo content. Grabbing an orb isn't hard or anything but in comparison to nighthawk it can still be seen as setup
Good to know, thanks. I don’t play my hunter much so I’m a bit out of the loop
it isnt really, its better on high crit multiplier, easy to hit bosses with long damage phases.
Sure bro I’m certain looping celestial golden guns isn’t broken at all. You just do more damage using just a special weapon than a guy using a full weapon rotation, nothing broken there surely.
no, so long as there is a crit and enough time to land a celestial shot and still. hunt its FAR better at burst then any other damage
And they should be, bungie made it very clear with the 3.0 changes that they want hunters to do the most damage
And it'll be nerfed just as the titans were Not sure why we're acting as if still hunt being this strong is permanent, every time hunters have had something that strong its been nerfed, liars, star eaters, arc staff, YAS etc
Ok well 5 years from now when they finally do that, it will be fair I guess. It feels like each class has a different team working on it.
I dunno why they don’t just add damage caps.
The amount of people that would piss off would be worse than the dual destiny thing
It would solve so many problems tho and allow them to make all these builds viable again.
I don't disagree, but it would be a bitchfest.
The downvotes certainly prove you right. I’d just do it the background and not tell anyone but that’s me 😂
i mean noone would really notice it, it would just prevent things like this.
Pretty much. Would allow them to make stronger builds while stopping broken shit happening that results in them nerfing builds to where they’re not useful
People will notice things and will get mad at things that don’t actually affect them.
They'd definitely notice. They're in here doing math on surge damage. And then we'd get comments like "Bungie why are you artificially slowing us down even further, we already have delta, health bar phases and champions!" Because they did that for each of those individual changes when they came out already. They are *currently* bitching about the delta, and the champion bitching is relatively constant.
i mean a healthgate in terms of how much damage you can do in one attack (ie 5mil shoulder charge) not health gates on the healthbar, i still want to be able to one phase all bosses, just without insane buff stacking or glitches.
It's not a ranged melee issue, IIRC it's a timer issue. Shoulder Charge takes too much time to start up, idk what the story is for Consecration though, Throwing Hammer would work for sure. Thunderclap *mayybe* if you "instant" do it, not Ballistic Slam though. Shield Toss can but that feels like a waste as it isn't a single target damage melee. Another part is melee stacking. Some stuff might not work (outside of timer issues) for balancing reasons. Melee stacking has historically always been a balancing issue just look at the Prismatic Hunter build lol
I'd argue it's a mix of timing and compatibility issues really. Because of that you really only have 3/4 powered melee you can take advantage of OTP with. Bonk, strand, shield, and sometimes consecration if you can time it right. Of those four you really only want to use it for bonk or strand since they're immediate, while you can with a shield it's like you said. It's a bit of a waste on a single target, especially since it's a source of over shield for a void titan. It's also kind of pointless on most supers too, since you're gonna be one shoting most enemies anyways so why waste the ammo. Unless you want to just have a bit of extra fuck you for that first mob or you're gonna Leroy Jenkins it into a boss it doesn't make much sense. The main reason, in my eyes, people are seeing it as useless now is because you can't spam the bonk hammer like you could before the regen delay. It was always like this for the rest of the melee options, but bonk hammer was just so broken with it that no one cared to look at the other melee options with it.
>If Titans are meant to be the melee class... So I want to make it clear up front that I understand the reason this question gets asked is because what the community believes is an identity doesn't match up with what the devs make as identities. But these questions are getting a bit out of hand at this point. I will repeat myself here, melee is a core part to Titan's identity. They have the most unique melee options in terms of mechanical behavior. But more to the point their kits (both baked in and for exotics) are general melee damage bonuses. Or another way to word it is that melee is a core part of their gameplay loop across all of their subclasses. Last thing of note here is Bungie does not nor hasn't (imo pretty much ever) drawn a hard line at what classes can do. Like many associate Hunter with having movement options. But Bungie doesn't take that perception and only allow Hunters to have movement options. >why does the "1-2 Punch" perk not work with most abilities? The simple answer is buff stacking. How 1-2 punch works specifically requires exceptions/specific interactions in order to keep some semblance of balance. Then you look at Titan that gets to have a huge amount of resources that are stackable buffs that would apply to their melee. So suddenly Titans are always 1 or 2 buffs/changes away from breaking the game again. Or to put it a different way, Combination blow Hunter builds are allowed to exist because they can only ever exist in a specific way and thus can easily be accounted for and if need be, adjusted safely. 1-2 punch has to be kept away from most of Titan because if their lethal weapons get their hands on it chances are it's probably going to break something.
>Last thing of note here is Bungie does not nor hasn't (imo pretty much ever) drawn a hard line at what classes can do. Tell that to the Bungie dev during the LightFall vidoc that said, "Titans we love you, but you are the guy holding the fist on the cover." While they haven't drawn any official lines in the sand, that statement says a lot on how they view Titans. That said, you're not wrong on the rest of it.
I wouldn't really take one individuals statement as how the dev team handles Titans as a whole. Unless the statement came from the design lead then maybe worry a little lol
It was stated by Kevin Yanes, a design lead, in this interview. So not just a random dev, safe to say there's reason to worry lol. https://www.gamesradar.com/destiny-2-lightfall-strand-preview/ You can find it towards the end of the discussion about the Titan Strand super.
Fair enough then lol.
Because damage calc is based on multipliers instead of additive bonuses or additive with a cap or any other system that's easier to balance. It needs to be redone entirely.
I'm a titan fan but I do think the hammer cooldown was necessary, looking back on it it was the most broken shit ever to exist. Anyways solar is still one of the best titan subclasses and hammer is still an amazing melee.
I think bonk hammer needed to be reigned in a little, but that was the worst possible way to do so
Agreed, it just feels awful now.
The point is you aren't supposed to be able to just spam it, once you admit that spamming the hammer isn't a build anymore but more of a tool to proc sol Invictus or cure or just quickly kill something then you realize it's still really good. And since you get the charge back there's no penalty to use it on a consecration build.
1 second cool down on a build that constantly has restoration up and gives boosted normal melees capable of killing trash ads. It’s still insanely good, you just have to intersperse a normal melee.
Nah. Given all the things it can trigger, it was the most futureproof way to nerf it. The other things they could have done to it are way worse.
It definitely needed to be reigned in, but I don't think it was completely the worst way to do it if they made one small change. If the delay counted even if the hammer wasn't picked up it'd be fine, but to risk your life to chase a missed bonk and *still* have the delay is just stupid. Sure in lower end content it's not a big deal, but in higher end you're definitely going to need to regen immediately and not being able to do so really sucks. Truth be told though, I don't know how else they could've reigned it in without it feeling bad. It was broken for so long any change made would've felt bad.
The cooldown should start on throw not pickup that way you could use it more at range like they want with no penalty while still disincentivizing up close hammer spam
Wouldn't that just be way worse since they would have to make the cooldown longer if it started on throw? Like, up close you use your melee, and instead of having to wait 1 sexond it would be like 5 seconds. That just sounds way worse to me, when you can just shoot far away enemies.
it would need to be longer than the current cooldown, yes, but not as long as 5 seconds; today it is like 1.5 seconds, so up close it should remain the same basically you throw it and it either falls on your feet or rebounds on yur hand and it needs to be unusable for those same 1.5 seconds; it's possible currently the pick up is not 100% instant so the cool down may need to increase a little but shouldn't be higher than 2 seconds at most
They could have just ... you know ... reduced the DMG vs. bosses? Simiar how they've increased it's DMG vs. elites ages ago.
That's the thing, **they did, TWICE** before they put the cooldown in
I’d be fine with the cooldown if they actually fixed the tracking.
It definitely did. Maybe could have been better then how they did it but I’m certainly not upset with what they chose. Just could have been executed better
I think hammer cooldown was a fair solution, I just wish it didn't apply it if you miss a target though.
The cool down wasn't needed, if anything, they should have made it so the hammer couldn't damage the same enemy in a short period of time.
That's just stupid
How so? It prevents the hammer spam while not making the hammer overly weak.
It's literally still an amazing melee, how the fuck is it weak. Also that would keep you being able to get infinite healing from picking the hammer up over and over which would still be dumb
It’s terrible on warlock too. It only works with a single melee (plus grapple, I guess): Grapple Melee Chain Lightning Doesn’t really make sense why it works with throwing knifes. They’re just as ranged as the titan and warlock ranged melees.
There's nothing as funny as bungie killing every single fun or powerful thing titan manages to make while giving warlocks infinite explosions and hunters get God killing melee strikes that proc ignition endlessly and they stay immortal and invisible while doing so and also get 2 celestial night hawk shots for game breaking damage. But God forbid titans can actually use glaives or can throw more storm grenades than usual. It's comedy how much they hate titans.
1-2 Punch has been endlessly nerfed and they seemingly regret putting it in the game.
Because Titans seem to be impossible for Bungie to really balance. We're the melee class, so a lot of our exotics and builds are fully around it. This also means we break melee to an absurd degree. Like hammer for instance, you could pop on synthocepts, tractor cannon, and a 1-2 shotty. Line up all three and you now have a Titan spamming hammer taking chunks out of bosses like it's no one's business. Now apply this kind of broken build crafting for most aspects of Titan melee and you end up where we are. A class who has no actual identity because Bungie doesn't know how to truly balance it without either making it OP or useless. Granted this mainly applies due to the really high level players. They find these builds and wipe the floor of everything with them, normal players get a nice power fantasy when they can line things up occasionally.
The short answer: It was super overpowered The long answer...well, it's long. The most part I remember was that it let you solo quite a few raid bosses.
Hunters are the Mobility class and yet are the slowest class in gameplay with basic movement abilities.
Titans are meant to punch things but not *too* good
Titan is the ultimate "no fun allowed" class
Because Bungie doesn’t know how to fairly balance the game.
Titans are on their warlock kick rn. Dominate the meta for a long time, perfectly fine being OP, and now that it’s not as broken there’s an agenda against them from Bungie 😂
all three classes have had eras where they were neglected; 2 things can be true. i remember the infamous hunter=kick days so yeah a class has the right to be loud about their neglect. Titans do seem to have a target on their back when during Lightfall a dev literally said “Titans we love you but…” so yea it kinda seems like there’s favoritism at play at the moment.
"we love you, but titans are the ones holding a fist on the cover." My brother in light, we hold a rifle.
This has been going on since y1 D1. Warlocks were OP for mad long and had the best melee. Hunters were bad and they nerfed blade dancer anyway which was hilarious. Titans were op for one week after sunbreaker was released. It's a ongoing cycle of nonsense I just play for fun.
Actually so true.
This might actually return after the feedback from TFS. The raid encounters were designed as such that a burst of damage was preferred. I wouldn't be surprised if they reverted the change.
Huh? Bungie isn’t just going to bring back the op melee builds if you ask nicely.
That's my point, we didn't ask nicely. Titan community has been very vocal the last couple of days.
i doubt that you see most raids are designed with one strategy in mind rhulk for example wouldnt work with golden gun nighthawk especially since div is messing with artifact, crota too having one raid designed for high range precision dps is fine imo unless every raid encounter in the future is exactly like this i dont think its a problem
As a hunter I feel you. The dodge exotic doesn't work with most of the dodge variants
Titan dokmpost #19.
Because people were killing Riven with a couple of hammer throws.
Titans are in a tough spot. They are supposed to be the close-range tank class. Get to close, and you take a lot of damage. But for a while, that damage was far too high, and in terms of survivability, they could out survive way more than what was fair. The more you can survive, the more damage you can deal, which is why they are in a tough spot. One tiny buff in some places can make them far too good aswell as taking a small buff from somewhere can make them the most useless class. They SHOULD be the melee class, but it seems they don't know where to go with it after strand being a full-on titan melee class and being completely busted compared to everything else. With the nerfs to strand and the kit it got for prismatic, they've taken a back seat closer to a support class. The void setup has a huge amount of potential for them to be the defensive team tank without dealing out insane damage which is where they should go with it, but that caught alot of nerfs making it useless in comparison to the other classes. A couple buffs to void, I think, would put Titan in the right direction.
It's really hard to call prismatic Titan a support class when we don't have any support tools that feed into a loop. Diamond lances freezes something, and that's all. Drengr suspends a few things, and that's all. Knockout heals us a bit and buffs melee damage, but doesn't provide any benefit to our teammates and isn't potent enough to enable melee combat in late-game, high damage encounters. Consecration exists solely to be paired with knockout and frenzied blade so we can kinda spam aoe melee. However, longer cooldowns mean this is extremely limited, even with fragments. Oh, and no benefit to our teammates. Unbreakable is weak, and we don't have enough uptime on our grenade to justify using it. Not to mention it provides almost no benefit to our teammates unless they're crammed into our back pockets. Closest thing we have to a support tool is Twilight arsenal, but Tractor Cannon's existence and sheer usability makes that a hard sell.
Prismatic Titan not getting any of their support aspects is what I dislike most about it. I’ve played Prism Hunter and Warlock and actually want to use the new class. Titan I would rather use Solar, Stasis or Strand so I can actually do something and survive. People like the triple consecration on Prism Titan. But you can easily get constant consecration with regular solar titan while also maintaining all the parts of Solar and not immediately folding when something looks at you funny.
We just had a whole 5 month season where Titans got to shit on every boss with grapple points and 1-2 punch shotguns. If you're wondering why 1-2 Punch isn't better, Season of the Wish is why
The Answer to 99% of All problems with abilities is, as is usual & "Tradition" . . . . PvP ! They use Balance as a Four letter word and ruin any/all Power Fantasy because of it.
CUrious - Is Bungie at all aware that Titans are suffering this badly wth class dientity?
Bungie I feel like is having the same problem that Arrowhead is having right now with Helldivers: An obsession with balance. There's a *ceaseless* pursuit for balance, everything has to be balanced. What then happens is two things. One, with a sandbox as expansive as Destiny's, SOMETHING will always be OP. It's just the way it is. Two, stuff becomes less fun if you don't run the meta loadout, because they also have a hardon for making everything at least somewhat challenging, rather than adding difficulty toggles to more activities, and as a result you have to run what keeps you alive/deals the most damage. So you then see very little variety in what builds people are running. Which signals to bungie that they need to pump out more nerfs!
None of the other classes are constrained by such a narrow identity, I'm honestly starting to think they just don't care about Titans.
Remember when they nerfed 1-2 punch’s damage multiplier because you could get too high damage numbers with melee boosting exotics, instead of putting a damage clamp on those exotics? I remember and I’m still bitter about it. Nerfing 1-2 punch instead of nerfing the exotics interactions with it essentially killed the perk for anything outside of those exotics. If you want to use 1-2 punch effectively, you pretty much have to use those exotics now, because by itself its damage is pathetic.
They nerfed it because 1-2 punch has been a damage stack edge case nightmare even beyond Titan. It was a perk made before we had a ton of this melee ability damage stack spam and as such became comically overtuned when that arrived. The nerf makes sense it’s good for the game’s health.
But by nerfing it, they’ve made it to where the only use case for it is to stack tons of damage on top of it. Using it by itself, or maybe with one source of damage increase, is pitiful. If they cap the damage you can do with melee, for example by x10, then you allow for other builds to be effective and provides multiple avenues for titans to get to the same result, while it also prevents titans from nuking everything with fists. For example, if you use pre nerf 1-2 punch with max wormgods you get 3.0 x 3.75 = x11.25 damage. This is just two buffs. With the damage cap, that’s brought down to x10.0. Let’s use a more extreme example, pre nerf 1-2 punch with max wormgods plus offensive bulwark overshield and a banner of war titan beside me. That’s 3.0 x 3.75 x 2.0 x 1.4 = x31.5 damage. This is insane, far too high. But, with the damage cap, no worries. It’s capped at x10.0. It sounds like a nerf, which it kind of is to an extent. But it’s giving titans a decent damage multiplier to work with to still deal high damage, without them ballooning to insane heights. It also allows you multiple ways to get to that damage cap, without having to build 100% into melee stacking. Edit; also, the x10 cap was just an example, I’m not advocating for 10 being the cap specifically. Obviously the optimal multiplier would need to be found by Bungie.
It’s like none of you watch byf 10 hour videos. Titans are not the melee class. They are the ‘leyroyyyyyyyyyyy jenkins’ class. When someone else is in danger, don’t think, just ‘W’ toward the enemy. There is a reason saint 14 has a dent in his helmet, and not his gauntlet.