You could ask your DM to allow to reflavour other wildshape forms into rat-like creatures.
Bear = Beefy rat.
Eagle = Winged rat.
Wolf = Warerat.
Seahorse = Sea rat
Yes, it was my choice. I'm not min/max player and backstory and character's goal is more important to me. But I still wanna contribute in the fight as much as I can.
then explain to your dm that you’re looking for leeway to reflavor the other beasts as variants of rats.
if he insists thats impossible, give him a gentle reminder that this is a game of make believe.
Technically DM doesn't have to, sure but without any elaboration on why not, it's just really really petty and needlessly anti-fun.
You gain no advantage from simple reflavouring like this, it fits the character better, and this way you're forced to choose between giving up your flavor or giving up class features you should have access to. Giant rat also would just look like another beast of the world and not be anything overly silly, so it's not like it'd be a tone shift from normal druid things.
Without the DM explaining why not, that seems a lot like saying no just to say no.
Or maybe it has to do with their idea of versimilitude? Like if I play in your game but I wanna have my storm herald barbarian be a clown and reflavor the battleaxe into a giant tuna and the storm aura damage to be me squirting them with a flower on my shirt, it doesn't grant me any advantage but if it doesn't fit with your setting you can and should tell me no.
Giant rats are just beasts and fairly DnD standard at that. Nor are they silly by design. We're talking about a reflavouring here of a big omnivore mammal into a slightly differently shaped big omnivore mammal in a world that almost certainly has a lot weirder and crazier animals than basic big rats. Those seem like entirely normal druid beasts to shift into. Again, as already mentioned in the comment you replied to, really not sure how you could argue that's a tonal shift. Unless the DM in question bans literally all non-real world anything from their setting. (Which clearly isn't the case, since OP plays a rat druid...)
In your example, I'd agree with you because battle axes being reflavored as giant tunas squirting flowers *is* silly by design and may not fit the tone of a more serious campaign. But that seems a far cry from "reflavour bear into very big rat".
A guy turning into rats the size, speed and strength of a bear is just as silly as a battle clown, in my opinion. And I wouldn't allow it because both feel ridiculous. Like nobody is stopping y'all from running your super special rat-based campaigns. The DM puts in the work for free and the trade off is they get to set the tone and say no. If you don't like it, I'm sure they'll find plenty of players to replace you while you scour the world for the perfect, submissive DM that lets you play and do whatever you want.
I was creating a Grand Theft Auto themed one-shot and thought of her. She’s great!
My roster:
Jorts - male tabaxi barbarian orange himbo; Odine - female storm sorcerer who speaks in a terrible British-esque accent (though more like the foreign country Connecticut) who lies about being a wizard and will only speak to you if she thinks your rich;
Chardonnay Hooker the Florida Druid.
This guy can’t be serious. He can’t be a DM! The whole point is to have fun!
I also lived in CT for a few years. I can hear the voice, and I bet she’s from Fairfield. My orange cat is totally a himbo too. This is amazing.
Chardonnay could also wildshape into a Florida gecko for stealth purposes, and (I’d think) get an escape advantage by dropping her tail.
Then just call the bear you’re summoning your giant rat even though it’s a bear. And if your DM continues to say no, let him know that he was the rat all along
Try ro make sure he understands its mearly a cosmetic change if he still dosent allow it i dont really know what to do but if u wanna do a little f u mpve you can always say that before you transform you put on a mask of a rat and then morph so youre kinda a rat
Shit, I’d probably try to figure out a way to do swarms of rats, using the more combat effective Wildshape stat blocks as a starting template. Like, Ratcatcher from Suicide Squad, let’s go.
>Or is there any creative way that I can use wild shape and be still strong as I'm in my natural form?
You DID take Natural Spell at Druid 6, right? No matter what, you are a spellcasting rat.
See if your DM will allow you to apply templates and/or buff spells to your dire rat form in exchange for your greatly reduced animal choices.
"only rat like creatures" better include all rodents. Here's what I'd pitch: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_rodents The top size is a Josephoartigasia rodent, which was estimated around 1,100 lbs. An adult male bear is estimated at 1,200 pounds. This is "beefy rat" as /u/FelMaloney mentioned, aka a bear form - but it's *not a bear*, it's a rat.
If your DM says "but it's extinct", point out you are playing a game where you magically turn into animals, so trying to force that level of realism is a little ridiculous.
I would also give honorable mention to a Dire Porcupine which should clearly impart some kind of piercing damage when you are attacked. Similarly, the Maned Rat smears poison from the Poison Arrow tree on its fur as a defense mechanism - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maned_rat so you might be allowed to have the WildShape spell include the poison.
Problem with all of those is gonna be that you 1) have to be familiar with the thing (which could arguably be overcome with a knowledge (nature) check), and 2) you need an actual statblock for the damn thing. So you are either limited to published creatures, or you'll have to homebrew new completely new ones AND get them approved by the DM.
For the largest rodent, just use the stat block for a bear. They are basically the same size with presumably similar claws and teeth being both omnivorous.
You can level up the rat stats by adding hit dice and the appropriate bab and such modifiers that go with it.
Also adding templates like celestial, fire or winged can add some flavor and spice.
Research prehistoric rodents.
Spread out into the whole rodent family like porcupines, beavers and cabybaras.
The Monster Manual for 3.5 has an appendix for leveling the base stat block and Green Ronin publishing has a book; Advanced Bestiary that is all templates.
It'll require some research and you'll have to work with your DM to make sure it fits the game.
Edited for grammar and brevity
Vanilla druid wildshape doesn't do templates or advanced monsters. Neither do the animal companion or *summon nature's ally*. There are ways to spend build resources to do that, but they're mostly specific feats that give you one specific template for your summons.
As far as animal compaion goes, I agree with you but only because animal companion is a superior form of creature level advancement vs what's in the monster manual.
And I will concede that any template that changes a monster's creature-type can exclude it from a spells scope (especially Nature's Ally).
But I don't agree with that interpretation of wild shape or the various summoning spells not having space for advanced creatures levels or templates.
My dude doesn't have mid to high level rat-themed options. Using templates and creature-level advancements to make a beefier rat is well within the bounds of a robust, customizable system like 3.5.
With the added bonus that he doesn't have to burn resources like feats to achieve it.
Edited to add: btw, I absolutely love debates like this.
Other comments provide real life creatures, but if you're looking for stats, you could use something like Bergins Book of Beasts for 5E and convert them to 3E.
Wildshape options are unfortunately limited, but as for summons, are you already using the *summon swarm* spell? That's a good use for a level 2 slot.
Getting rat creatures to higher DCs is normally used through templates, though, so if you can get your DM to allow those, that would be a solution up to becoming a Titanic Rat (through the titanic creature template) at higher levels.
Well, if you prestige into master of many forms, you should be able to get giant/dire rat + templates that make them into relevant form. Similarly, progressing druid to the point of elemental wild shape should let you become a elemental rat.
These don't have stat sheets premade, but the planar books indicate there are elemental variants of every prime material creature.
The animal growth spell is pretty powerful, and might be castable on you while wildshaped and your companion normally. I'm not 100% sure if it works on vermin, (is the DM counting you as vermin or animal?)
There is also the colossal (or titanic? can't recall) template which just gives any animal a ton of HD and makes it colossal sized, although I'm not sure on the CR, so don't know what level summon natures ally would be appropriate.
While I understand base MM rats aren't very powerful, what are your non transformed stats that the transformation is a major hit?
Dire rats are available for basic wildshape; before regular rats actually, because of the size limitations.
*Animal growth* doesn't work with wildshape out of the box because wildshape does not modify your type (and if it did, it would not be vermin). You can however change your type separately through spells like *aspect of the wolf*. I don't think there is anything in the rules that properly ends a magical transformation effect once another one is applied, so the type change from *aspect of the wolf* should be maintained unless your DM rules it to be shenanigans.
You could try one zoom.org
It basically trying to have a digital record of all life, and has them on this tree thing.
Anyway you can basically search for common names and get pretty good depiction. Might need to mix a bit of googling for images or terms, but it has your flying rats(Bats)
Water rats, digging rat, sneaky rats, tanking rats, venom spitting rats, and whatever other mistake evolution tried along the way.
Can I suggest the character "dreams" up a few character monster designs. Either due to obsession, a blessing or intervention from an unknown god.
Think like a rat ogre, or a monstrous rat as the bih combat form. A wererat if you will. A wolfrat as the speedy form. A bat as the flight form and just go from there with any wild design you desire. Ranged form, swimming form, swarm form or anything really
If DM does not like the idea its one thing, but he should be able to humor you as long as it does not provide any undue advantage.
I'd you use existing ststblocks and change name mostly, perhaps a single skill, I don't see the issue for anything than DM holding you back.
I might have something for you. Give me a few hours so I can get access to my books. It may require pulling on at least one of FR and Eberron though fyi
You could ask your DM to allow to reflavour other wildshape forms into rat-like creatures. Bear = Beefy rat. Eagle = Winged rat. Wolf = Warerat. Seahorse = Sea rat
Yeah, he doesn't allow it
Seagul = Sky Rat This is my solid belief, can't change my mind on it.
New York pigeons would like to have a word with you.
Those aren't rats, they fight rats. Supremancy over the streets. Seagulls give no shits already and will steal your stuff irregardless.
Pigeons are flying mice actually
I mean, that seems pretty unfair... Basically cutting off a huge amount of a Druid's power for flavor reasons? Was that discussed beforehand?
Yes, it was my choice. I'm not min/max player and backstory and character's goal is more important to me. But I still wanna contribute in the fight as much as I can.
then explain to your dm that you’re looking for leeway to reflavor the other beasts as variants of rats. if he insists thats impossible, give him a gentle reminder that this is a game of make believe.
There is nothing wrong with a DM saying "no" to reflavoring. If they don't want to let someone wildshape into a bear-sized rat, they don't have to.
Technically DM doesn't have to, sure but without any elaboration on why not, it's just really really petty and needlessly anti-fun. You gain no advantage from simple reflavouring like this, it fits the character better, and this way you're forced to choose between giving up your flavor or giving up class features you should have access to. Giant rat also would just look like another beast of the world and not be anything overly silly, so it's not like it'd be a tone shift from normal druid things. Without the DM explaining why not, that seems a lot like saying no just to say no.
Or maybe it has to do with their idea of versimilitude? Like if I play in your game but I wanna have my storm herald barbarian be a clown and reflavor the battleaxe into a giant tuna and the storm aura damage to be me squirting them with a flower on my shirt, it doesn't grant me any advantage but if it doesn't fit with your setting you can and should tell me no.
Giant rats are just beasts and fairly DnD standard at that. Nor are they silly by design. We're talking about a reflavouring here of a big omnivore mammal into a slightly differently shaped big omnivore mammal in a world that almost certainly has a lot weirder and crazier animals than basic big rats. Those seem like entirely normal druid beasts to shift into. Again, as already mentioned in the comment you replied to, really not sure how you could argue that's a tonal shift. Unless the DM in question bans literally all non-real world anything from their setting. (Which clearly isn't the case, since OP plays a rat druid...) In your example, I'd agree with you because battle axes being reflavored as giant tunas squirting flowers *is* silly by design and may not fit the tone of a more serious campaign. But that seems a far cry from "reflavour bear into very big rat".
A guy turning into rats the size, speed and strength of a bear is just as silly as a battle clown, in my opinion. And I wouldn't allow it because both feel ridiculous. Like nobody is stopping y'all from running your super special rat-based campaigns. The DM puts in the work for free and the trade off is they get to set the tone and say no. If you don't like it, I'm sure they'll find plenty of players to replace you while you scour the world for the perfect, submissive DM that lets you play and do whatever you want.
…did he say why? That seems completely arbitrary and unfair.
Come on DM, have some fun with it.
Playing DnD for fun? What a novel concept!
That's a real bummer! Sorry to hear it. :(
You’re self imposing a rat restriction, and your DM won’t let you reskin animals that are normally available to you?
That's too bad, because flavor is free.
You should play in a game with a better dm
That’s stupid! I have Chardonnay Hooker my Florida Druid who wildshapes into Alligators, Manateees and Seagulls. I’d quit that DM.
This might be the best thing I’ve ever read. Sincerely, An ex-Floridian
I was creating a Grand Theft Auto themed one-shot and thought of her. She’s great! My roster: Jorts - male tabaxi barbarian orange himbo; Odine - female storm sorcerer who speaks in a terrible British-esque accent (though more like the foreign country Connecticut) who lies about being a wizard and will only speak to you if she thinks your rich; Chardonnay Hooker the Florida Druid. This guy can’t be serious. He can’t be a DM! The whole point is to have fun!
I also lived in CT for a few years. I can hear the voice, and I bet she’s from Fairfield. My orange cat is totally a himbo too. This is amazing. Chardonnay could also wildshape into a Florida gecko for stealth purposes, and (I’d think) get an escape advantage by dropping her tail.
Then just call the bear you’re summoning your giant rat even though it’s a bear. And if your DM continues to say no, let him know that he was the rat all along
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The question was about 3d&d, not 1d&d.
Try ro make sure he understands its mearly a cosmetic change if he still dosent allow it i dont really know what to do but if u wanna do a little f u mpve you can always say that before you transform you put on a mask of a rat and then morph so youre kinda a rat
Shit, I’d probably try to figure out a way to do swarms of rats, using the more combat effective Wildshape stat blocks as a starting template. Like, Ratcatcher from Suicide Squad, let’s go.
Capybara!
Yup. Capybara. Maybe a pacarana.
*Heeeeeey Macarena!*
>Or is there any creative way that I can use wild shape and be still strong as I'm in my natural form? You DID take Natural Spell at Druid 6, right? No matter what, you are a spellcasting rat. See if your DM will allow you to apply templates and/or buff spells to your dire rat form in exchange for your greatly reduced animal choices.
I didn't take natural spell at 6 but I asked this question because of the feat at lvl9, I plan to take nat spell
If saying "rat-like" means "rodent", I suggest both the beaver and the porcupine.
Tyrannosaurus Rat
TricerRATops
Become a ratatoille, the you can take control over anything you like
"only rat like creatures" better include all rodents. Here's what I'd pitch: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_rodents The top size is a Josephoartigasia rodent, which was estimated around 1,100 lbs. An adult male bear is estimated at 1,200 pounds. This is "beefy rat" as /u/FelMaloney mentioned, aka a bear form - but it's *not a bear*, it's a rat. If your DM says "but it's extinct", point out you are playing a game where you magically turn into animals, so trying to force that level of realism is a little ridiculous. I would also give honorable mention to a Dire Porcupine which should clearly impart some kind of piercing damage when you are attacked. Similarly, the Maned Rat smears poison from the Poison Arrow tree on its fur as a defense mechanism - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maned_rat so you might be allowed to have the WildShape spell include the poison.
Problem with all of those is gonna be that you 1) have to be familiar with the thing (which could arguably be overcome with a knowledge (nature) check), and 2) you need an actual statblock for the damn thing. So you are either limited to published creatures, or you'll have to homebrew new completely new ones AND get them approved by the DM.
For the largest rodent, just use the stat block for a bear. They are basically the same size with presumably similar claws and teeth being both omnivorous.
Their dm said they can't do that
ROUS
Rodents of unusual size? I don't believe they exist.
Become a Raticate (Pokemon) Also, just an eat that is different sizes. A man sized rat is terrifying. A horse sized rat is also nightmare fuel.
You can level up the rat stats by adding hit dice and the appropriate bab and such modifiers that go with it. Also adding templates like celestial, fire or winged can add some flavor and spice. Research prehistoric rodents. Spread out into the whole rodent family like porcupines, beavers and cabybaras. The Monster Manual for 3.5 has an appendix for leveling the base stat block and Green Ronin publishing has a book; Advanced Bestiary that is all templates. It'll require some research and you'll have to work with your DM to make sure it fits the game. Edited for grammar and brevity
The swarm template! It treats a swarming of rats as a single creature.
Also, you're level 9. It might be time to design a prestige class based on your rat-themed character
Vanilla druid wildshape doesn't do templates or advanced monsters. Neither do the animal companion or *summon nature's ally*. There are ways to spend build resources to do that, but they're mostly specific feats that give you one specific template for your summons.
As far as animal compaion goes, I agree with you but only because animal companion is a superior form of creature level advancement vs what's in the monster manual. And I will concede that any template that changes a monster's creature-type can exclude it from a spells scope (especially Nature's Ally). But I don't agree with that interpretation of wild shape or the various summoning spells not having space for advanced creatures levels or templates. My dude doesn't have mid to high level rat-themed options. Using templates and creature-level advancements to make a beefier rat is well within the bounds of a robust, customizable system like 3.5. With the added bonus that he doesn't have to burn resources like feats to achieve it. Edited to add: btw, I absolutely love debates like this.
Swarms of rats aren’t great for turning into but they are great for summoning and setting on low to mid level bad guys imo.
Other comments provide real life creatures, but if you're looking for stats, you could use something like Bergins Book of Beasts for 5E and convert them to 3E.
Wildshape options are unfortunately limited, but as for summons, are you already using the *summon swarm* spell? That's a good use for a level 2 slot. Getting rat creatures to higher DCs is normally used through templates, though, so if you can get your DM to allow those, that would be a solution up to becoming a Titanic Rat (through the titanic creature template) at higher levels.
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Bit odd to link him to a 5e book
Oh, you’re right. I missed it was 3.5. My bad. 😂
I suggest asking your dm if any of the skaven monsters can be home brewed into the game :3, nothing more fun then a rat-ogre, or ratwolves.
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Well, if you prestige into master of many forms, you should be able to get giant/dire rat + templates that make them into relevant form. Similarly, progressing druid to the point of elemental wild shape should let you become a elemental rat. These don't have stat sheets premade, but the planar books indicate there are elemental variants of every prime material creature. The animal growth spell is pretty powerful, and might be castable on you while wildshaped and your companion normally. I'm not 100% sure if it works on vermin, (is the DM counting you as vermin or animal?) There is also the colossal (or titanic? can't recall) template which just gives any animal a ton of HD and makes it colossal sized, although I'm not sure on the CR, so don't know what level summon natures ally would be appropriate. While I understand base MM rats aren't very powerful, what are your non transformed stats that the transformation is a major hit?
Dire rats are available for basic wildshape; before regular rats actually, because of the size limitations. *Animal growth* doesn't work with wildshape out of the box because wildshape does not modify your type (and if it did, it would not be vermin). You can however change your type separately through spells like *aspect of the wolf*. I don't think there is anything in the rules that properly ends a magical transformation effect once another one is applied, so the type change from *aspect of the wolf* should be maintained unless your DM rules it to be shenanigans.
Rat king of course
El ratta alada
You could try one zoom.org It basically trying to have a digital record of all life, and has them on this tree thing. Anyway you can basically search for common names and get pretty good depiction. Might need to mix a bit of googling for images or terms, but it has your flying rats(Bats) Water rats, digging rat, sneaky rats, tanking rats, venom spitting rats, and whatever other mistake evolution tried along the way.
Only site I could find was the online meeting platform
https://www.onezoom.org/
Thanks so much
Get “lycanthropy” and become are were-rat. Talk to DM to make it happen.
Get “lycanthropy” and become are were-rat. Talk to DM to make it happen.
Look up what a bear looks like without fur. mega rat
Can I suggest the character "dreams" up a few character monster designs. Either due to obsession, a blessing or intervention from an unknown god. Think like a rat ogre, or a monstrous rat as the bih combat form. A wererat if you will. A wolfrat as the speedy form. A bat as the flight form and just go from there with any wild design you desire. Ranged form, swimming form, swarm form or anything really If DM does not like the idea its one thing, but he should be able to humor you as long as it does not provide any undue advantage. I'd you use existing ststblocks and change name mostly, perhaps a single skill, I don't see the issue for anything than DM holding you back.
chimeras see this guy has a rat hydra: https://www.reddit.com/r/PrintedWarhammer/s/aVA4WdUI4j
You could always work with your dm to create some
swarm of rats, be all the rats
Just wanna say, I loved every second of reading this post
I might have something for you. Give me a few hours so I can get access to my books. It may require pulling on at least one of FR and Eberron though fyi
Kangaroos are like rats
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Thanks, I saw that but I'm not sure is that 3.5 or Dnd at all :D
Summon The Rat King. The King of all rats who bows to no one… except the Rat Queen