I think we need to hear the full story of how you bought it. As a DM and as a Player, I'd normally say that whoever bought it owns it and can decide who gets to use it. It sounds like there may be more to the purchasing story, though. Who's pushing for the Wizard to get it and why? If the Wizard doesn't want it, leave them alone.
Wizard here with some more context, post was written while they were busy so didn't write it all out.
Neither of us even have the full picture of what the book does in character (I rolled a nat 1 despite high arcana-), only that it reveals secrets once every 100 years to a person, which would be useful for us both.
They were only able to purchase it now because I gave a loan of 24k+ gold (1/4th of the full 100k), even after they used up all of their money on hand they could scrounge up and depleted savings in a bank. Which explains why this is a discussion at all.
I'm going to say that this was financially a very irresponsible decision. The only correct way to handle this is to have an all out wizard (/artificer) war.
No, I'm serious. This is reddit. Have you read the cosign stories here? There's no way your characters could ever handle this responsibly like adults, because this is not what responsible adults would do. It would end in a fight, that's the only logical conclusion.
I think the only reason Igot the loan was because Wizard's player is my Partner, and In game we didn't know what it was or what it did, only that it was going to be useful.
If it helps the session after we bought the book, My Artificer decked Wizard in the face to knock them out of a gods control- and now (with Air Bubble being already activated at the time) they are taking a nap in their own bag of holding
>I think the only reason Igot the loan was because Wizard's player is my Partner, and In game we didn't know what it was or what it did, only that it was going to be useful.
I'm going to emphasis that your characters borrowed money to buy a book without knowing what it did. Do your characters even have a fixed income? How are you going to pay back the loan? What if you can't pay back the loan on time?
I do love the irony of 2 of the smartest people in the world making such a dumb financial decision, though. That's amazing.
Anyway, the wizard is taking a nap in his bag of holding. Time to grab a dagger and send him to the Astral Plane. You'll only need to make a small cut in his bag of holding. Nobody will notice.
>Do your characters even have a fixed income? How are you going to pay back the loan? What if you can't pay back the loan on time?
Actually we do! Currently we are working for the king of the country we live in, and we get paid per mission we go on. So as long as we get paid, my portion goes to the wizard until the debt is paid off.
As for offing the wizard, as much as in character i want to- the logic for not offing them is- well- they are the only one who knows Teleportation magic to get home after we finish the latest wild goose chase we are on
Eh- Its a solid source of income- and we get free room and board so we don't have to pay for housing- so all our money is spent on materials or other such things to improve us.
^(I say this as someone who is currently going to College without a actual job- only getting buy on summer jobs and dog sitting- so i'm not- the best at financial decisions)
Okay- so, i don't know how to edit posts, but I will write out the story in a diffrent post and link it- if thats allowed? very new to actually posting on reddit-
Once i was caught up with all the posts in this thread, I think I get the gist of it. My opinion is that bought it so it's yours to do with as you please, even if the Wizard lent you money to help purchase it. Not sure what the DM was thinking if they didn't want you to have it.
They didn't not want us to have it, it was more just- they made us work for it and not just get it from loot, I think that the Wizard and I both used all our money, (Wizard also bought their own stuff before lending me the Money).
I think after reading everyone's replies It will most likely go to me, seeing as my partner already has plans to find Clone to add it to their list of spells.
I would look at this like an elf. Elves live a long life, up to a thousand years. Tiefling's have a life span about the same as humans, eighty-ish years. The book will recharge every one hundred years. Assuming an average age for an elf adventurer and the fact that you seem to be a team player you could let the Tiefling use it and you could then use it one hundred years from now, and again in another hundred years, etc... getting up to seven or eight uses of the book. This doesn't help the character for the campaign but elves do see things in the long view.
You know what, that's a funny but very sensible way of looking at it. The elf is going to have lots of chances to read a book that recharges every century.
It's almost definitely the Wizard.
Spells are literally bending reality, especially at your level. So increasing your Spell Save DC by one means that those spells will stick easier. Both the Wizard and the Artifcier benefit from this, but as an Artificer, you do not have access to the same quantity of spells, spell slots, or spell levels. Meaning that you fall far behind.
The bonus to your to hit / damage would be nice, but means very little.
It does give the Artificer an extra charge of flash of genius, increase the Bonus from +5 to +6, and give them two additional spell storing item uses in addition to the spellcasting stuff so it does quite a bit for them that it wouldn't do for the wizard, but the OP bought it and it doesn't matter all that much so OP should probably have it anyways.
I just hit my first level 11 Artificer so got my spell-storing item… but I’m not sure the boost from 10 to 12 uses is significant.
So far I’ve been defaulting to Aid (we have a current situation with lots of allies in a large fight) and mostly have been looking at Cure Wounds or situationally Invisibility for it.
Cure Wounds would benefit the most from 2 more uses, but is still not that marginally beneficial. Hopefully with Short Rests there isn’t a situation needing 12 heals, which would mostly be out of combat unless somebody was down.
The power in it is giving it to an npc or familiar or homunculus infusion or steel defender and having them cast the spells or hold concentration for you. I had one that was vortex warping party members around the battlefield every turn for me.
Well, I hadn’t yet picked my level 11 infusion (sudden mid-session level-up so DM gives us some retcon leniency), and you’ve made up my mind on one.
Bonus Action actions here I come
Yeah, the homunculus is honestly great. Ranged attack flying familiar that can handle at least two normal hits and doesn't cost ten gold every time you wanna summon it.
And, of course, can give it the spell storing item to turn a bunch of spells into bonus action spells and lets you have it concentrate on some too. Faerie fire? Tasha's Caustic Brew? Even a first or second level buff spell. (Plus, since it's a creature, it has its own attunement slots for any spare magic items the party isn't using.)
And with some DM assistance, you can do what I did and turn the homunculus into a stealth bomber. Spell storing to give him invisibility + necklace of fireballs = untold death from above
My spider flavoured steel defender has a web spell storing item. Web gets ridiculously good late game. Monster dex saves don't seem to increase as much as their other saves.
You're forgetting all of their other features that scale off int.
Wizard gets +1 to attack and save and one more spell prepped.
Artificer gets that + bonus to attacks with their gauntlets + additional flash of genius use (which is huge)
So, was there a discussion before it was purchased who would get to use the item? If you asked to borrow funds to purchase it, and did so without other discussion it should be yours. If this only came up after the fact, I think it's kind of silly to have the Wizard think they should be entitled to it now. How much did each of you put towards the item?
It was a mad scramble to see if I had enough money to get it, as well as having to bluff to the shopkeep about- who i was. Begged (Honestly I think I looked at them with pleading eyes out of game) for the Wizard to lend me the last 4th of the money I needed. So there was not really any conversation, and Neither of us- in-character knew the extent of what it did (Wizard Nat 1ed Arcana, i got high enough to know that it would be useful and we would want it)
Book was 100K gold, all my money, even things from like, Robe of useful Items, was put towards it, Wizard put 24376gp Towards it- I covered the other- 75624gp
If you put 75k towards the cost, it should be yours. That's an obscene amount of money to just give it to the wizard. If you had known beforehand that the wizard would end up getting it, would you have still shelled out 75k for the Tome. It's very good for both of you, whether it's better for the wizard or not is irrelevant when you put 75k out of your own pocket to get the item. If for some reason the wizard throws up a stink about it (which I have not seen in comments thus far) I'd ask the GM to potentially undo the transaction. Say that I don't wanna pay 75k to give away an item and would rather buy other things instead.
Alternate opinion - at these levels the real power of Wizard is having spells that barely give a save or may give no save at all. So the additional DC on their spells is not a game-changing as you might think. When you hit lvl 17 its not like the classic power spells (True Polymorph, Shapechange, Wish) really care about Int that much either.
Meanwhile a lot of Artificer features key off Intelligence including - critically - Flash of Genius. So your to-hit bonus and damage both go up, your spell attack bonus and DC go up, you get more Flash of Genius and it does more each time.
The artificer has at least as good a claim to this as the wizard. Honestly.
Thank you both for your input! Its good to hear both sides is good for me, I am not New to D&D but we usually play- way over hombrew-ed games, this is the first high level game where while the world and a few small things are homebrew, most of the way we play is not. So having people give the Pro's and cons to both side really helps.
People saying the wizard are objectively wrong.
Artificer. Not even a question.
- You have flash of genius, one of the best abilities in the game. The +2 makes that a +6 you can add to any roll in the party AND it gives you an extra use per long rest.
- It gives you an extra use of magical tinkering.
- Int is your attack modifier for your gauntlets - It increases your spell saves and spell attack modifier (which can also buff the homunculus infusion if you have it)
- It gives you another spell prep, something that is more useful for an artificer since they have a lower amount of spells they can prep per day versus the wizard.
The wizard gets:
- +1 increase to spell save dc and spell attack
- one additional spell prepped
You bought it. You should use it. It's better for the entire party for you to use it from flash of genius alone. Not to mention your spell storing item can be a save spell anyone in the party could use as well.
Edit: To add on, your party can still find/craft magic items like a wand of the war mage or arcane grimoire. Said items do the same thing for the wizard. This book however benefits all of your other class features while even an all-purpose tool wouldn't.
True true, bring us.up to 12 casts of vortex warp, cure wounds, or what have you that you can give to an npc, a familiar, a homunculus infusion, or a steel defender to use for you.
>People saying the wizard are objectively wrong
There is no such thing as objectively wrong in RP, if you're min-maxing, sure let the Artificer read it. But he also can in a 100 years which is nothing to an elf
The OP asked what would be the better choice mechanically because they're fighting gods and using gritty realism rules.
So yes, objectively better because it would net them more uses of very good class features per long rest. Artificers benefit more from a +2 to int than wizards do.
Also, sure, they can read it in 100 years... After the campaign is over...
Artificer; not because you bought in for most of it's value but because you get more value from it as already outlined by a lot of other people.
You'll get all the buffs the Wizard gets and then some, seems like a no-brainer really.
The thing about high-level dnd is that saving throw DCs keep scaling while your saves don't. The effects also become deadlier, save-or-suck or outright save-or-die.
Since you don't have a paladin in your party, the only countermeasure you have is flash of genius, and having an additional charge to that can come in real clutch. If you had a paladin, giving it to the wizard would likely be better, but as is i'd definitely argue in favor of the artificer.
This is all assuming the homebrew subclass for the wizard doesn't interact with their int mod too much. If they get some crazy benefit, something like an additional portent die, it might be better to hand it over.
If you went out of the way to spend your resources to acquire it then you should use it, without question.
A dynamic that doesn't really come into play for the duration of this campaign but might make sense to consider in character, is that your character might still be alive to use the book the next time the magic becomes available in a hundred years. If I was in your position and found the book as loot I might pass on it for that reason. Then again, the Wizard could totally get up to some Clone shenanigans so they could still be kicking around as well.
But since you bought it, it's yours. Use it.
Thinking as characters, a tiefling is a short lived race, an elf will live for a very very long time. The hundred year wait might to use it again might be just an inconvenience to an elf, but the tiefling will never get that chance again.
Yes, ask the dm for assistance. If I was the gm I would provide a quest to get a quick recharge of the book. Maybe involving some Fey time magic to take a charge from the books future. Or a yugoloth that will invest in the book now, for two charges of your book (or your soul) later.
Artificer honestly gets the most mileage of increasing their Int. Wizards only increase their saving throw, spell attack and save DCs, and prepare an extra spell. Armorer Artificers get that, more/better Flash of Genius, better attack/damage rolls with their weapons, more uses of their spell-storing item, and improves many infusions like the homunculus.
Now there ARE a few spells like Counterspell and Dispel Magic where a higher ability score helps with ability checks, and Wizards get those spells. However those can be niche cases, the artificer gets Dispel, and can still help the Wizard with their Flash of Genius ability.
Throw in that you bought it, OP, and I think it’s right for you to have it.
You bought, you use. Right now you have access to both flash of genius and spell-storing item, which scales of your INT and are invaluable good abilities to have more.
~~Also fuck them wizards, they already are one of - if not the - most powerful class on the game without counting on items like this~~
Wizard here with some more context, post was written while they were busy so didn't write it all out.
Neither of us even have the full picture of what the book does in character (I rolled a nat 1 despite high arcana-), only that it reveals secrets once every 100 years to a person, which would be useful for us both.
They were only able to purchase it now because I gave a loan of 24k+ gold (1/4th of the full 100k), even after they used up all of their money on hand they could scrounge up and depleted savings in a bank. Which explains why this is a discussion at all.
The above was copy pasted because a lot of people have this same response, but id like to note: Honestly I do agree that Artificer can get more use out of it class wise lol. This is entirely in character half-arguing.
Ye, ideally your group finds an arcane grimoire or a wand of the war mage and you get effectively the same benefit you would have from the tome. Best of both worlds. (Artificer could even use the enhanced arcane focus infusion for you as a trade-off for them getting the book.)
First dibs on magic items go to the person who earned them. If you spent your gold, or solved the puzzle, or made friends with the guy who gave it to you as a gift, then it's yours. Obviously if the magic item has nothing to do with your character then you can and should pass it off to someone else in the party who can use it. But if it's rightfully yours and helps your character, take the benefit.
Personally I prefer it when magic items are so obviously meant for one character that there's no argument at all, but I understand why that can't happen for stat boosting items when two characters care about the same stats...
Wizard here with some more context, post was written while they were busy so didn't write it all out.
Neither of us even have the full picture of what the book does in character (I rolled a nat 1 despite high arcana-), only that it reveals secrets once every 100 years to a person, which would be useful for us both.
They were only able to purchase it now because I gave a loan of 24k+ gold (1/4th of the full 100k), even after they used up all of their money on hand they could scrounge up and depleted savings in a bank. Which explains why this is a discussion at all.
If this had been found in a random loot pile, that would be a more difficult question. You actually purchased it, so it's yours. Do with it what you please. I would say use it, because it's yours, or barter with it, also because it's yours. Not that difficult.
Wizard here with some more context, post was written while they were busy so didn't write it all out.
Neither of us even have the full picture of what the book does in character (I rolled a nat 1 despite high arcana-), only that it reveals secrets once every 100 years to a person, which would be useful for us both.
They were only able to purchase it now because I gave a loan of 24k+ gold (1/4th of the full 100k), even after they used up all of their money on hand they could scrounge up and depleted savings in a bank.
I know those things are worth a small fortune, but hot damn. So it was a group purchase them? If that's the case then your best bet is to decide between the two of you who wants the boost and who's willing to take the next similar to your item that lands on their lap. Or, conversely, wait until said item finally does arrive and then you decide between the two. That's if you want to keep it fair and civil. Unless you'd rather have the money, but even then that was only a quarter of it
You loan HIM money, it's not a group purchase it's a loan, he should use it. If I ask a loan to the bank for a house they don't have the right to come and live there or choose how I decorate. If this is a source a conflict in your group just don't loan the gold or talk to you your DM.
If you're asking what the pure, power game "stomp things better" answer is, it depends. You're both at your max casting stat, but how are each of you built? Do you use intelligence for anything other than casting? I've seen homebrew artificers that attack with their int. If something like that's the case, probably you. If that's not, and your wizard is a saving throw heavy control caster, you'll get more mileage kicking it his way
Armorer so I use it for attacks, as well as Flash of Genius, Tinkering and the like- I would have to ask Wizard if they are more saves or attacks, I don't know off the top of my head
Rouge is red make-up for thenlips and cheeks.
Rogue is an Arch-type.
I know... I'm a dick. whatever, it bugs me.
Anyway, you should probably have them flip a coin or something.
your not a dick- I just am bad at spelling, English is a dumb amalgamation of 3 different languages in a trench coat, and i barely passed English in school
I say the Artificer, they did the work getting the item. It helps both your spell DCs and attacks equally, and +1 spells prepared is more impactful on a half caster than a full caster.
Also, if you are Battlesmith or Armorer then it also impacts your weapon attacks.
If the Wizard is a Bladesinger they get some extra benefit from it, but the Artificer gets more, and Wizard probably doesn’t need help with their spell. Let them get the VR item later that gives them some extra durability, like a Staff of Power.
Flash of genius goes to all artificers tho. Which another use of and making it a +6 is massive. Arguably more important than a +1 to the wizard's saves
This is tough. I'm tempted to say artificer, because every component part of an artificer's many features all scale off of intelligence: Hit and damage rolls, spell attack and spell save DC, Flash of Genius charges and power level, various infusions, etc. Of course, a wizard has fewer features because they have significantly more spellcasting, and their spells are scaling with intelligence as well.
Given the relatively small party size, from an overall min/max perspective I think Flash of Genius may make the artificer the better choice for the group. Going from five charges of +5 to six charges of +6 is significant in helping you and your allies survive against powerful save-or-suck spells, the downside of which is devastating in a small party, as you'd lose fully 1/3 of your force. Your wizard buddy won't be landing any spells at all if they flub a charisma saving throw versus Banishment and are stuck waiting for one of two allies to break the enemy's concentration.
Too bad you can't use your prowess in bluffing on your DM to convince them to let you read it together. 48 hours in 6 days, as a couple, could make for some fun RP, including giving your DM a chance to throw to roadblocks.
>my players' PCs are a bit overpowered. ;)
Same with any game me or the Wizard dm (wizard is a close friend of mine) and we have been in multiple games together, this is the first with this DM, and they tend to- well make it harder for us to be OP, Which isn't a bad thing but still- I think in a game Wizard Dmed- I got like- a 26 int on my wizard- it was broken.
Edit: Wizard told me to correct this (jokingly but still)- Wizard is my Partner not just a close friend
Yea, I am just still new-ish to Dnd, and used to heavy homebrew and parties of 5-6, not 3 player groups. so wanted some other opinions! thank you so much for all your help
Rock paper scissors.
The winner gets the book. The loser punches the winner one time when he leads expects it.
You both use int a lot. Maybe the wizard does more with the int because wizards are op but it is the same strait upgrade both ways and only one of you gets it. It's down to more of a personal conflict/discussion.
If you can't pick let it be rock, paper, or scissors
And if you lose and say "alright best 2 out of three" you get punched twice. The victor is the victor.
It's amazing on both of them.
If they both want it, it was looted, and they both get giant buffs from it that benefit the entire party, I'd suggest they roll for it.
But Wizard bought it, so wizard gets it.
Wizard didn't buy it, I (Artificer) Did.
Spent- ALL my money on it, to be fair, Wizard did loan me some money for it, But I bought it using mostly my money.
Edit: Not to say that they don't deserve it, just making sure details are right, Sorry-
It's probably the wizard. But I would like to make a slight argument for artificer because of flash of genius. FoG scales with intelligence on both uses per day and potency and it can be absolutely clutch. Unlike a similar tool like barsic inspiration FoG gives a reliable amount so you never risk rolling a 1 a d still failing a save. If you are paying attention to a bosses DCs and they try to whip out a disintegrate or something you can be ready.
Counter Point to that for that there is no Gadget that boosts your Intelligence to 22 for free, the closest thing is an Ioun stone but it has a max of 20.
Also to defend my DM, He didn't expect us to manage to buy it- i was 10000 gp after all- I had to use all my money to get it, plus use all the patches I could off of my Robe of Useful Items- it also only came up because I pretended to be a god instead of myself in a magic shop.
lol I know there’s no gadget that does it, was being a bit cheeky.
It’s far more thematic for the wizard.
BUT, like I said in the small text, if I’m the DM, I avoid this altogether and make it so you both can have one. Going up to 22 for only one party member is kinda cheap if there’s only one of the item that makes it achievable.
I do think that is a valid point yea, but again- we were not meant to be able to get it in the first place, or was a pre-planned thing for an Ally, not us. I just did a few dumb things to get it. But I do see your logic
Yeah. It’s on the DM then. They put it out there. And you pulled the thread and made it happen, in a fun sounding way. If they don’t want it out there, they never should have put it there.
So I have two views on this.
Logical for the characters:
Let the tiefling use the book this Century.
Abandon the party and become a hermit making insane inventions and using your elven lifespan to use the tome again several times before you come out of your Hermitage for a final big brain swan song.
Logical for your party:
Technically the int boost will help your wizard friend more than it would help your Artificer. By virtue of being more spell focused than you. But they'd have to drop the loan imo
From a purely optimization standpoint, I’d say the wizard. Their spells are their entire effectiveness, so they want the intelligence more. An artificer has a bit more to fall back on.
From a social standpoint, I also think it’d be a pretty cool move to buy your friend a book of surpassing mortal limits.
Return the book and get your money back. State firmly that you don’t believe any amount of knowledge is worth the divide it would create over who gets to use it.
Sadly wouldn’t work in character, as much as we may be level 15 we started at 14 and still barely get a long (Character wise- Out of game I am good friends with the Wizard and enjoy Rogue’s chaotic energy) so it doesn’t fit to return it- also I don’t know if I even can at this point
I’m not trying to make it a big thing, I am quite new to dnd and I was looking for advice because I wanted to make sure I had al the facts straight, no other game I have been in has been properly balanced, or hadn’t lasted to this level. So I didn’t know what would be smarter, and wanted to get other options.
Based purely on effectiveness, the wizard as the +1 applies to the majority of the things in his class - while artificer is less reliant on it. That been said it is just a +1 he can live without it.
From what other comments say, Artificers use INT for the Majority of their things too, like Flash of Genius, which Already has saved our party form a probable TPK at one point.
I do see your point though
Yes, but what I mean is, imagine for example a druid with low wisdom, vs a wizard with low intelligence. The druid is not just entirely depending on his spells. The wizard almost entirely will be casting spells that are based off his intelligence. The only spells that won't need saves/attacks are buffs so what I mean to say is that this +5% success rate is added to 90% all of their actions. While an artificer will benefit as well, most of their spells are buffs and less risky. For example, I would prefer a bit higher chance of a disintegrate to hit, rather than the same higher chance on most things I can imagine an artificer caring about... but yes both use it.
I answered purely based on putting things on the efficiency scale, for example if I was solo playing both chars and I got to choose. I don't think the difference is enough to give it away if you paid the majority of it.
That is totally true, wasn't trying to- downplay what you had said just going off of everything I have gotten, I appreciate everyone's opinions on this due to the fact that I am still getting used to- a more well balanced game.
It depends on your subclass imo. If you are using your intelligence for attacks like with the battle master, and you are actually using weapon attacks, then the +1 would have a good impact on your dps.
If you are the spellcasting/supporting type of artificer, then it's definitely the wizard. When it comes to spells, you cannot outdo him in spellcasting.
There are some other conditions, for example, if you find yourself always using your flash of genius, and running out, an additional use may save someone's life.
It's a coin toss, and depends on both of your playstyles and on what pillars on gameplay your table focuses, but, unless you provide more context, I would say the wizard would benefit more because he is generally the stronger class.
I play our tank mainly, but also a heavy hitter on damage, Armorer Artificer is my subclass.
MAIN DPS is the rouge but seeing as its only the three of us we both do a good chunk of the damage.
Wizard does tend to be more support spells then damage but they can do some damage. Currently plan on making them a returning dagger for one of their spells that uses a thrown weapon (**Edit:** Wizards player just sent me their spell list- they have only one damage cantrip, the rest are support spells)
I did update with a link to the whole story of how I got the book, but if you need more context let me know!
You bought it. You get the final say. If they want it, they should have bought it.
Bit tricky there due to- the way I bought it. But I see your point
I think we need to hear the full story of how you bought it. As a DM and as a Player, I'd normally say that whoever bought it owns it and can decide who gets to use it. It sounds like there may be more to the purchasing story, though. Who's pushing for the Wizard to get it and why? If the Wizard doesn't want it, leave them alone.
Wizard here with some more context, post was written while they were busy so didn't write it all out. Neither of us even have the full picture of what the book does in character (I rolled a nat 1 despite high arcana-), only that it reveals secrets once every 100 years to a person, which would be useful for us both. They were only able to purchase it now because I gave a loan of 24k+ gold (1/4th of the full 100k), even after they used up all of their money on hand they could scrounge up and depleted savings in a bank. Which explains why this is a discussion at all.
I'm going to say that this was financially a very irresponsible decision. The only correct way to handle this is to have an all out wizard (/artificer) war. No, I'm serious. This is reddit. Have you read the cosign stories here? There's no way your characters could ever handle this responsibly like adults, because this is not what responsible adults would do. It would end in a fight, that's the only logical conclusion.
I agree. There should be blood.
I think the only reason Igot the loan was because Wizard's player is my Partner, and In game we didn't know what it was or what it did, only that it was going to be useful. If it helps the session after we bought the book, My Artificer decked Wizard in the face to knock them out of a gods control- and now (with Air Bubble being already activated at the time) they are taking a nap in their own bag of holding
>I think the only reason Igot the loan was because Wizard's player is my Partner, and In game we didn't know what it was or what it did, only that it was going to be useful. I'm going to emphasis that your characters borrowed money to buy a book without knowing what it did. Do your characters even have a fixed income? How are you going to pay back the loan? What if you can't pay back the loan on time? I do love the irony of 2 of the smartest people in the world making such a dumb financial decision, though. That's amazing. Anyway, the wizard is taking a nap in his bag of holding. Time to grab a dagger and send him to the Astral Plane. You'll only need to make a small cut in his bag of holding. Nobody will notice.
>Do your characters even have a fixed income? How are you going to pay back the loan? What if you can't pay back the loan on time? Actually we do! Currently we are working for the king of the country we live in, and we get paid per mission we go on. So as long as we get paid, my portion goes to the wizard until the debt is paid off. As for offing the wizard, as much as in character i want to- the logic for not offing them is- well- they are the only one who knows Teleportation magic to get home after we finish the latest wild goose chase we are on
That's not a fixed income. That's freelancing.
Eh- Its a solid source of income- and we get free room and board so we don't have to pay for housing- so all our money is spent on materials or other such things to improve us. ^(I say this as someone who is currently going to College without a actual job- only getting buy on summer jobs and dog sitting- so i'm not- the best at financial decisions)
Learned how to edit, but realized story deserved its own post, so link is now in the post!
Okay- so, i don't know how to edit posts, but I will write out the story in a diffrent post and link it- if thats allowed? very new to actually posting on reddit-
Having read what the wizard said: you paid for most of it, still your final say. Just my thoughts though.
Once i was caught up with all the posts in this thread, I think I get the gist of it. My opinion is that bought it so it's yours to do with as you please, even if the Wizard lent you money to help purchase it. Not sure what the DM was thinking if they didn't want you to have it.
They didn't not want us to have it, it was more just- they made us work for it and not just get it from loot, I think that the Wizard and I both used all our money, (Wizard also bought their own stuff before lending me the Money). I think after reading everyone's replies It will most likely go to me, seeing as my partner already has plans to find Clone to add it to their list of spells.
I would look at this like an elf. Elves live a long life, up to a thousand years. Tiefling's have a life span about the same as humans, eighty-ish years. The book will recharge every one hundred years. Assuming an average age for an elf adventurer and the fact that you seem to be a team player you could let the Tiefling use it and you could then use it one hundred years from now, and again in another hundred years, etc... getting up to seven or eight uses of the book. This doesn't help the character for the campaign but elves do see things in the long view.
You know what, that's a funny but very sensible way of looking at it. The elf is going to have lots of chances to read a book that recharges every century.
We got one in our campaign and that was my logic with my elf. I kept the book, but the paladin got to read it.
It's almost definitely the Wizard. Spells are literally bending reality, especially at your level. So increasing your Spell Save DC by one means that those spells will stick easier. Both the Wizard and the Artifcier benefit from this, but as an Artificer, you do not have access to the same quantity of spells, spell slots, or spell levels. Meaning that you fall far behind. The bonus to your to hit / damage would be nice, but means very little.
It does give the Artificer an extra charge of flash of genius, increase the Bonus from +5 to +6, and give them two additional spell storing item uses in addition to the spellcasting stuff so it does quite a bit for them that it wouldn't do for the wizard, but the OP bought it and it doesn't matter all that much so OP should probably have it anyways.
I just hit my first level 11 Artificer so got my spell-storing item… but I’m not sure the boost from 10 to 12 uses is significant. So far I’ve been defaulting to Aid (we have a current situation with lots of allies in a large fight) and mostly have been looking at Cure Wounds or situationally Invisibility for it. Cure Wounds would benefit the most from 2 more uses, but is still not that marginally beneficial. Hopefully with Short Rests there isn’t a situation needing 12 heals, which would mostly be out of combat unless somebody was down.
The power in it is giving it to an npc or familiar or homunculus infusion or steel defender and having them cast the spells or hold concentration for you. I had one that was vortex warping party members around the battlefield every turn for me.
Well, I hadn’t yet picked my level 11 infusion (sudden mid-session level-up so DM gives us some retcon leniency), and you’ve made up my mind on one. Bonus Action actions here I come
Yeah, the homunculus is honestly great. Ranged attack flying familiar that can handle at least two normal hits and doesn't cost ten gold every time you wanna summon it. And, of course, can give it the spell storing item to turn a bunch of spells into bonus action spells and lets you have it concentrate on some too. Faerie fire? Tasha's Caustic Brew? Even a first or second level buff spell. (Plus, since it's a creature, it has its own attunement slots for any spare magic items the party isn't using.)
And with some DM assistance, you can do what I did and turn the homunculus into a stealth bomber. Spell storing to give him invisibility + necklace of fireballs = untold death from above
My spider flavoured steel defender has a web spell storing item. Web gets ridiculously good late game. Monster dex saves don't seem to increase as much as their other saves.
Vortex warp my friend. (If your DM allows it).
You're forgetting all of their other features that scale off int. Wizard gets +1 to attack and save and one more spell prepped. Artificer gets that + bonus to attacks with their gauntlets + additional flash of genius use (which is huge)
So, was there a discussion before it was purchased who would get to use the item? If you asked to borrow funds to purchase it, and did so without other discussion it should be yours. If this only came up after the fact, I think it's kind of silly to have the Wizard think they should be entitled to it now. How much did each of you put towards the item?
It was a mad scramble to see if I had enough money to get it, as well as having to bluff to the shopkeep about- who i was. Begged (Honestly I think I looked at them with pleading eyes out of game) for the Wizard to lend me the last 4th of the money I needed. So there was not really any conversation, and Neither of us- in-character knew the extent of what it did (Wizard Nat 1ed Arcana, i got high enough to know that it would be useful and we would want it) Book was 100K gold, all my money, even things from like, Robe of useful Items, was put towards it, Wizard put 24376gp Towards it- I covered the other- 75624gp
If you put 75k towards the cost, it should be yours. That's an obscene amount of money to just give it to the wizard. If you had known beforehand that the wizard would end up getting it, would you have still shelled out 75k for the Tome. It's very good for both of you, whether it's better for the wizard or not is irrelevant when you put 75k out of your own pocket to get the item. If for some reason the wizard throws up a stink about it (which I have not seen in comments thus far) I'd ask the GM to potentially undo the transaction. Say that I don't wanna pay 75k to give away an item and would rather buy other things instead.
Alternate opinion - at these levels the real power of Wizard is having spells that barely give a save or may give no save at all. So the additional DC on their spells is not a game-changing as you might think. When you hit lvl 17 its not like the classic power spells (True Polymorph, Shapechange, Wish) really care about Int that much either. Meanwhile a lot of Artificer features key off Intelligence including - critically - Flash of Genius. So your to-hit bonus and damage both go up, your spell attack bonus and DC go up, you get more Flash of Genius and it does more each time. The artificer has at least as good a claim to this as the wizard. Honestly.
Thank you both for your input! Its good to hear both sides is good for me, I am not New to D&D but we usually play- way over hombrew-ed games, this is the first high level game where while the world and a few small things are homebrew, most of the way we play is not. So having people give the Pro's and cons to both side really helps.
So many people forgetting just how many artificer features scale off int. Flash of genius is one of the best abilities in the game.
At this level the Wizard is close to having spell DC where the enemy can’t fail.
People saying the wizard are objectively wrong. Artificer. Not even a question. - You have flash of genius, one of the best abilities in the game. The +2 makes that a +6 you can add to any roll in the party AND it gives you an extra use per long rest. - It gives you an extra use of magical tinkering. - Int is your attack modifier for your gauntlets - It increases your spell saves and spell attack modifier (which can also buff the homunculus infusion if you have it) - It gives you another spell prep, something that is more useful for an artificer since they have a lower amount of spells they can prep per day versus the wizard. The wizard gets: - +1 increase to spell save dc and spell attack - one additional spell prepped You bought it. You should use it. It's better for the entire party for you to use it from flash of genius alone. Not to mention your spell storing item can be a save spell anyone in the party could use as well. Edit: To add on, your party can still find/craft magic items like a wand of the war mage or arcane grimoire. Said items do the same thing for the wizard. This book however benefits all of your other class features while even an all-purpose tool wouldn't.
Also it gives 2 extra uses of spell storing item, which is effectively 2 more spell slots
True true, bring us.up to 12 casts of vortex warp, cure wounds, or what have you that you can give to an npc, a familiar, a homunculus infusion, or a steel defender to use for you.
>People saying the wizard are objectively wrong There is no such thing as objectively wrong in RP, if you're min-maxing, sure let the Artificer read it. But he also can in a 100 years which is nothing to an elf
The OP asked what would be the better choice mechanically because they're fighting gods and using gritty realism rules. So yes, objectively better because it would net them more uses of very good class features per long rest. Artificers benefit more from a +2 to int than wizards do. Also, sure, they can read it in 100 years... After the campaign is over...
Artificer; not because you bought in for most of it's value but because you get more value from it as already outlined by a lot of other people. You'll get all the buffs the Wizard gets and then some, seems like a no-brainer really.
I have never played an Artificer- which is why I asked, I honestly forgot how many things I have that use INT.
That's fair, never hurts to ask if in doubt :-)
The thing about high-level dnd is that saving throw DCs keep scaling while your saves don't. The effects also become deadlier, save-or-suck or outright save-or-die. Since you don't have a paladin in your party, the only countermeasure you have is flash of genius, and having an additional charge to that can come in real clutch. If you had a paladin, giving it to the wizard would likely be better, but as is i'd definitely argue in favor of the artificer. This is all assuming the homebrew subclass for the wizard doesn't interact with their int mod too much. If they get some crazy benefit, something like an additional portent die, it might be better to hand it over.
If you went out of the way to spend your resources to acquire it then you should use it, without question. A dynamic that doesn't really come into play for the duration of this campaign but might make sense to consider in character, is that your character might still be alive to use the book the next time the magic becomes available in a hundred years. If I was in your position and found the book as loot I might pass on it for that reason. Then again, the Wizard could totally get up to some Clone shenanigans so they could still be kicking around as well. But since you bought it, it's yours. Use it.
Arm wrestle for it. Either in character or IRL, both would be funny.
I was thinking a fight to the death...
Thinking as characters, a tiefling is a short lived race, an elf will live for a very very long time. The hundred year wait might to use it again might be just an inconvenience to an elf, but the tiefling will never get that chance again.
Hash it out in character.
Yes, ask the dm for assistance. If I was the gm I would provide a quest to get a quick recharge of the book. Maybe involving some Fey time magic to take a charge from the books future. Or a yugoloth that will invest in the book now, for two charges of your book (or your soul) later.
If I'd need it, I'd use it. It's not like you've found a Strength book as a Wizard keeping it from a Barbarian. You actually have a use for it.
Artificer honestly gets the most mileage of increasing their Int. Wizards only increase their saving throw, spell attack and save DCs, and prepare an extra spell. Armorer Artificers get that, more/better Flash of Genius, better attack/damage rolls with their weapons, more uses of their spell-storing item, and improves many infusions like the homunculus. Now there ARE a few spells like Counterspell and Dispel Magic where a higher ability score helps with ability checks, and Wizards get those spells. However those can be niche cases, the artificer gets Dispel, and can still help the Wizard with their Flash of Genius ability. Throw in that you bought it, OP, and I think it’s right for you to have it.
You bought, you use. Right now you have access to both flash of genius and spell-storing item, which scales of your INT and are invaluable good abilities to have more. ~~Also fuck them wizards, they already are one of - if not the - most powerful class on the game without counting on items like this~~
Wizard here with some more context, post was written while they were busy so didn't write it all out. Neither of us even have the full picture of what the book does in character (I rolled a nat 1 despite high arcana-), only that it reveals secrets once every 100 years to a person, which would be useful for us both. They were only able to purchase it now because I gave a loan of 24k+ gold (1/4th of the full 100k), even after they used up all of their money on hand they could scrounge up and depleted savings in a bank. Which explains why this is a discussion at all. The above was copy pasted because a lot of people have this same response, but id like to note: Honestly I do agree that Artificer can get more use out of it class wise lol. This is entirely in character half-arguing.
Ye, ideally your group finds an arcane grimoire or a wand of the war mage and you get effectively the same benefit you would have from the tome. Best of both worlds. (Artificer could even use the enhanced arcane focus infusion for you as a trade-off for them getting the book.)
I actually already have a +2 Arcane Grimoire lol, or equivalent as a tattoo at least.
Noice, then yeah, def would toss the book to the artificer then. More bang for your buck.
First dibs on magic items go to the person who earned them. If you spent your gold, or solved the puzzle, or made friends with the guy who gave it to you as a gift, then it's yours. Obviously if the magic item has nothing to do with your character then you can and should pass it off to someone else in the party who can use it. But if it's rightfully yours and helps your character, take the benefit. Personally I prefer it when magic items are so obviously meant for one character that there's no argument at all, but I understand why that can't happen for stat boosting items when two characters care about the same stats...
Wizard here with some more context, post was written while they were busy so didn't write it all out. Neither of us even have the full picture of what the book does in character (I rolled a nat 1 despite high arcana-), only that it reveals secrets once every 100 years to a person, which would be useful for us both. They were only able to purchase it now because I gave a loan of 24k+ gold (1/4th of the full 100k), even after they used up all of their money on hand they could scrounge up and depleted savings in a bank. Which explains why this is a discussion at all.
If this had been found in a random loot pile, that would be a more difficult question. You actually purchased it, so it's yours. Do with it what you please. I would say use it, because it's yours, or barter with it, also because it's yours. Not that difficult.
Wizard here with some more context, post was written while they were busy so didn't write it all out. Neither of us even have the full picture of what the book does in character (I rolled a nat 1 despite high arcana-), only that it reveals secrets once every 100 years to a person, which would be useful for us both. They were only able to purchase it now because I gave a loan of 24k+ gold (1/4th of the full 100k), even after they used up all of their money on hand they could scrounge up and depleted savings in a bank.
I know those things are worth a small fortune, but hot damn. So it was a group purchase them? If that's the case then your best bet is to decide between the two of you who wants the boost and who's willing to take the next similar to your item that lands on their lap. Or, conversely, wait until said item finally does arrive and then you decide between the two. That's if you want to keep it fair and civil. Unless you'd rather have the money, but even then that was only a quarter of it
You loan HIM money, it's not a group purchase it's a loan, he should use it. If I ask a loan to the bank for a house they don't have the right to come and live there or choose how I decorate. If this is a source a conflict in your group just don't loan the gold or talk to you your DM.
This isn't a conflict at all, literally just an in-character discussion lol
If you give it to them they should pay you back since you bought it.
If you're asking what the pure, power game "stomp things better" answer is, it depends. You're both at your max casting stat, but how are each of you built? Do you use intelligence for anything other than casting? I've seen homebrew artificers that attack with their int. If something like that's the case, probably you. If that's not, and your wizard is a saving throw heavy control caster, you'll get more mileage kicking it his way
Armorer so I use it for attacks, as well as Flash of Genius, Tinkering and the like- I would have to ask Wizard if they are more saves or attacks, I don't know off the top of my head
Yeah, based on that you'll definitely get your money's worth out of it. Especially for an armorer, tank duty always needs the buffs
Rouge is red make-up for thenlips and cheeks. Rogue is an Arch-type. I know... I'm a dick. whatever, it bugs me. Anyway, you should probably have them flip a coin or something.
your not a dick- I just am bad at spelling, English is a dumb amalgamation of 3 different languages in a trench coat, and i barely passed English in school
I say the Artificer, they did the work getting the item. It helps both your spell DCs and attacks equally, and +1 spells prepared is more impactful on a half caster than a full caster. Also, if you are Battlesmith or Armorer then it also impacts your weapon attacks. If the Wizard is a Bladesinger they get some extra benefit from it, but the Artificer gets more, and Wizard probably doesn’t need help with their spell. Let them get the VR item later that gives them some extra durability, like a Staff of Power.
Without regard for subclasses, I would say the Wizard can use it best.
Flash of genius goes to all artificers tho. Which another use of and making it a +6 is massive. Arguably more important than a +1 to the wizard's saves
Ah! Knew i forgot something- They are a homebrew Subclass based on Tattoo's (i forget the name) And I am an Armorer Artificer.
The Artificer gets everything the wizard gets out of it and more...
This is tough. I'm tempted to say artificer, because every component part of an artificer's many features all scale off of intelligence: Hit and damage rolls, spell attack and spell save DC, Flash of Genius charges and power level, various infusions, etc. Of course, a wizard has fewer features because they have significantly more spellcasting, and their spells are scaling with intelligence as well. Given the relatively small party size, from an overall min/max perspective I think Flash of Genius may make the artificer the better choice for the group. Going from five charges of +5 to six charges of +6 is significant in helping you and your allies survive against powerful save-or-suck spells, the downside of which is devastating in a small party, as you'd lose fully 1/3 of your force. Your wizard buddy won't be landing any spells at all if they flub a charisma saving throw versus Banishment and are stuck waiting for one of two allies to break the enemy's concentration.
This. The extra flash of genius is invaluable. One of the strongest abilities in the game.
Wizard, but ask for the book after he uses it. As a high elf you will get at least 5 uses of it in the epilogue if ya live that long.
Artificer probably
Too bad you can't use your prowess in bluffing on your DM to convince them to let you read it together. 48 hours in 6 days, as a couple, could make for some fun RP, including giving your DM a chance to throw to roadblocks.
you know- I might just- barging with him on that- that sounds- so interesting
I'd let you do it if I was your DM but all DMs aren't created equal, and my players' PCs are a bit overpowered. ;)
>my players' PCs are a bit overpowered. ;) Same with any game me or the Wizard dm (wizard is a close friend of mine) and we have been in multiple games together, this is the first with this DM, and they tend to- well make it harder for us to be OP, Which isn't a bad thing but still- I think in a game Wizard Dmed- I got like- a 26 int on my wizard- it was broken. Edit: Wizard told me to correct this (jokingly but still)- Wizard is my Partner not just a close friend
I love that. You two should be able to work it out.
Yea, I am just still new-ish to Dnd, and used to heavy homebrew and parties of 5-6, not 3 player groups. so wanted some other opinions! thank you so much for all your help
Rock paper scissors. The winner gets the book. The loser punches the winner one time when he leads expects it. You both use int a lot. Maybe the wizard does more with the int because wizards are op but it is the same strait upgrade both ways and only one of you gets it. It's down to more of a personal conflict/discussion. If you can't pick let it be rock, paper, or scissors And if you lose and say "alright best 2 out of three" you get punched twice. The victor is the victor.
Wizard, hands down. No question you benefit more
It's amazing on both of them. If they both want it, it was looted, and they both get giant buffs from it that benefit the entire party, I'd suggest they roll for it. But Wizard bought it, so wizard gets it.
Wizard didn't buy it, I (Artificer) Did. Spent- ALL my money on it, to be fair, Wizard did loan me some money for it, But I bought it using mostly my money. Edit: Not to say that they don't deserve it, just making sure details are right, Sorry-
ah yes, 1/4th of the 100k is 'some' lol /lh
Seeing as i payed 3/4ths? Yes /nm
> airing with the the better game choice I think you’re looking for the word “erring”, but even then it doesn’t really make sense.
English is a stupid amalgamation and my ADHD ass barely passed English classes-
It's probably the wizard. But I would like to make a slight argument for artificer because of flash of genius. FoG scales with intelligence on both uses per day and potency and it can be absolutely clutch. Unlike a similar tool like barsic inspiration FoG gives a reliable amount so you never risk rolling a 1 a d still failing a save. If you are paying attention to a bosses DCs and they try to whip out a disintegrate or something you can be ready.
Wizard. It’s a book, not a gadget. ^(And if I’m the DM, I make two, to avoid this whole nonsense so both can have the benefits of it)
Counter Point to that for that there is no Gadget that boosts your Intelligence to 22 for free, the closest thing is an Ioun stone but it has a max of 20. Also to defend my DM, He didn't expect us to manage to buy it- i was 10000 gp after all- I had to use all my money to get it, plus use all the patches I could off of my Robe of Useful Items- it also only came up because I pretended to be a god instead of myself in a magic shop.
this, literally this YOU paid for it imo you could sell it off to wizard... i wouldnt give it for free ngl
yea i have no plans on giving it to them for free, XD
lol I know there’s no gadget that does it, was being a bit cheeky. It’s far more thematic for the wizard. BUT, like I said in the small text, if I’m the DM, I avoid this altogether and make it so you both can have one. Going up to 22 for only one party member is kinda cheap if there’s only one of the item that makes it achievable.
I do think that is a valid point yea, but again- we were not meant to be able to get it in the first place, or was a pre-planned thing for an Ally, not us. I just did a few dumb things to get it. But I do see your logic
Yeah. It’s on the DM then. They put it out there. And you pulled the thread and made it happen, in a fun sounding way. If they don’t want it out there, they never should have put it there.
True enough
Which character is doing the most magical attack rolls or causing the most saving throws made by opponents?
Magical attacks? The wizard, but due to my subclass (artificer) I also use Int for my attack rolls and damage, and I am the current Tank.
So I have two views on this. Logical for the characters: Let the tiefling use the book this Century. Abandon the party and become a hermit making insane inventions and using your elven lifespan to use the tome again several times before you come out of your Hermitage for a final big brain swan song. Logical for your party: Technically the int boost will help your wizard friend more than it would help your Artificer. By virtue of being more spell focused than you. But they'd have to drop the loan imo
Screw it give it to the Rogue, improve those investigation checks
From a purely optimization standpoint, I’d say the wizard. Their spells are their entire effectiveness, so they want the intelligence more. An artificer has a bit more to fall back on. From a social standpoint, I also think it’d be a pretty cool move to buy your friend a book of surpassing mortal limits.
Friend is- not the right term character wise XD
Return the book and get your money back. State firmly that you don’t believe any amount of knowledge is worth the divide it would create over who gets to use it.
Sadly wouldn’t work in character, as much as we may be level 15 we started at 14 and still barely get a long (Character wise- Out of game I am good friends with the Wizard and enjoy Rogue’s chaotic energy) so it doesn’t fit to return it- also I don’t know if I even can at this point
[удалено]
I’m not trying to make it a big thing, I am quite new to dnd and I was looking for advice because I wanted to make sure I had al the facts straight, no other game I have been in has been properly balanced, or hadn’t lasted to this level. So I didn’t know what would be smarter, and wanted to get other options.
Based purely on effectiveness, the wizard as the +1 applies to the majority of the things in his class - while artificer is less reliant on it. That been said it is just a +1 he can live without it.
From what other comments say, Artificers use INT for the Majority of their things too, like Flash of Genius, which Already has saved our party form a probable TPK at one point. I do see your point though
Yes, but what I mean is, imagine for example a druid with low wisdom, vs a wizard with low intelligence. The druid is not just entirely depending on his spells. The wizard almost entirely will be casting spells that are based off his intelligence. The only spells that won't need saves/attacks are buffs so what I mean to say is that this +5% success rate is added to 90% all of their actions. While an artificer will benefit as well, most of their spells are buffs and less risky. For example, I would prefer a bit higher chance of a disintegrate to hit, rather than the same higher chance on most things I can imagine an artificer caring about... but yes both use it. I answered purely based on putting things on the efficiency scale, for example if I was solo playing both chars and I got to choose. I don't think the difference is enough to give it away if you paid the majority of it.
That is totally true, wasn't trying to- downplay what you had said just going off of everything I have gotten, I appreciate everyone's opinions on this due to the fact that I am still getting used to- a more well balanced game.
It depends on your subclass imo. If you are using your intelligence for attacks like with the battle master, and you are actually using weapon attacks, then the +1 would have a good impact on your dps. If you are the spellcasting/supporting type of artificer, then it's definitely the wizard. When it comes to spells, you cannot outdo him in spellcasting. There are some other conditions, for example, if you find yourself always using your flash of genius, and running out, an additional use may save someone's life. It's a coin toss, and depends on both of your playstyles and on what pillars on gameplay your table focuses, but, unless you provide more context, I would say the wizard would benefit more because he is generally the stronger class.
I play our tank mainly, but also a heavy hitter on damage, Armorer Artificer is my subclass. MAIN DPS is the rouge but seeing as its only the three of us we both do a good chunk of the damage. Wizard does tend to be more support spells then damage but they can do some damage. Currently plan on making them a returning dagger for one of their spells that uses a thrown weapon (**Edit:** Wizards player just sent me their spell list- they have only one damage cantrip, the rest are support spells) I did update with a link to the whole story of how I got the book, but if you need more context let me know!