No.
It's one of the things I think DMs consistently get wrong and I have argued as much frequently.
Firstly, as you point out the gap between martials and casters narrows significantly with magic items. Magic weapons massively increase the damage of martials, even more so with the traditionally weaker classes like fighter and monk who have no magic but lots of attacks. In addition, utility magic items add a lot more options for martials, helping narrow the out of combat gap. That is even before you get into the advantages of doing magical damage against many enemies.
Secondly, one of the main genre archetypes is swords and sorcery. It follows a pattern of stories with warriors armed with magic swords battling monsters and magic. Give your heroes their magic swords!!
I think it is getting more recognised as well, the tables in Xanathars are a lot more generous when it comes to magic items and recommend many more than I think most DMs give.
I mean, magic items do make martials more powerful and give them new tools, but they can do the same thing for magic users. And while the martial/caster divide exists, giving lots of good magic items to ONLY the martials at your table would make the magic user players feel pretty bad
Martials generally benifit more.
Even post Xanathars, where a whole bunch of new items for casters were introduced, magic weapons (and armour) are more common than spellcasting focuses. On top of that, many spellcasting focuses only increase spell attack rolls rather than spell save DC or damage, which is a lot weaker for most casters.
More importantly martials have multiple attacks, which makes a +x weapon more impactful, even more so if it is a +dx damage weapon like flame tongue. A fighter at level 11 is getting the bonus damage up to three times, potentially more with bonus action or reaction based builds.
Then look at utility items. Something simple like a Cape of the Mounteblank gives a Wizard one extra single function spell slot, it gives a fighter an ability they normally have nothing close to, that specifically solves many out of combat obstacles and addresses one of their main weaknesses in combat. That is a big difference.
It's a big difference that highlights just how big of a gap higher level spells are though. As you say, Fighters need a full Rare (iirc) item to replicate a single usage of a spell (with some added smoke). Martials only benefit more, because they have a huge gap to cross, and magic items give them a taste of what casters can do naturally. The +X weapons are *crucial* for a lot of martials just to keep up, honestly, and even then it just helps them do the one thing they're good at: DPR.
It isn't just that they have a huge gap to cross, it's also that they benifit a lot more from many of those spells. A major weakness of martials is that they tend to lack mobility for example, dimension door is a game changer in that respect, far more so than it is for a caster.
Yes it does highlight the advantages of higher level spells, but it also lets martials do a little magic whilst crushing it in the damage department.
I agree about magic items for martials in general; but I disagree about magic weapons like Flame Tongue/Frostbrand.
>Magic weapons massively increase the damage of martials, even more so with the traditionally weaker classes like fighter and monk who have no magic but lots of attacks.
For one thing, Fighter is one of the strongest martials and half-martials, not the weakest. For another, DAMAGE has _never_ been an issue with martials in general. Martials do _plenty_ of damage and they do it far more reliably than casters.
What martials are missing is everything BESIDES damage, so Flame Tongue, Frostbrand, and other weapons that just add more damage do NOT fix the issue or close the gap, at all.
The thing casters have over martials is _versatility_ in combat and _utility_ outside of combat. So if you want to fix that, give your martials magic items that fix THAT.
Give your heroes their magic swords! - that _deflect enemy magic_, or do some debuff that sets up an ally's combo, or lets you fly/leap/climb to attack enemies you normally couldn't, or gives you one charge of "Get out of Debuff Jail Free". Do NOT give them weapons that just buff their damage but don't do anything _interesting_.
And you can even go back to those very stories of sword and sorcery for ideas. Deflecting magic with your magic sword/shield? Happens all the time there. Escaping an illusion or whatever by the hero focusing their will and doing something clever with said magic weapon? Also happens all the time.
>the tables in Xanathars are a lot more generous when it comes to magic items and recommend many more than I think most DMs give.
This is not true. If you math out the Xanathars tables they are only _slightly_ more generous than the DMG, and it sounds like you're confused about major and minor items possibly - an entire party of adventurers is still only getting 100 magic items total by 20th level, and 80 of those will be consumables like potions/scrolls/etc, and the large majority of even those 20 permanent magic items are being accrued after 10th level (after most campaigns have ended).
* I will add a caveat - the above is based on a campaign that is running a reasonable number of encounters per day (at least 3+ in my experience), and has martials that are built moderately well. As always, a DM should cater their loot to the group somewhat. If you're running only 1-2 encounters a day, the casters are going to absolutely stunt on your martials _regardless_, damage and otherwise. If your martials are built poorly because you have very new players who don't know the game well, but your caster PCs know the right spells to pick, your martials' damage might be so sub-par throwing in magic weapons that just do damage is fine (though I'd still _also_ give them stuff that lets them do other things).
And then there's the other issue with using magic items to "bolster" martials in general...how do you make sure they get to the martial PCs instead of being snapped up by the casters? Especially when they do more than just extra weapon damage?
I have an artificer that I would love to play that would be creating a sword that can potentially paralyze enemies so he can set up combos with it if it pops off (monster con saves tend to be strong), as well as a cloak that's basically just the boots of speed on steroids so that he can weaponize his movement speed to burn enemies' reactions by deliberately triggering opportunity attacks, and what you said is the main reason why: it makes his stuff more versatile.
Yeah, makes sense!
I will say that my own answer to the question I pose above (how do you get the magic items to the martials that need them?) in my campaigns is actually similar to that - much like how Artificer making cool shit is its own class feature, I tend to give martials "cool things to do" via special boons/charms/additional class features they earn or discover through play, instead of just magic item loot. That way I know exactly who's getting it, whether it be a Rogue learning how to teleport around from a Horizon Walker NPC, or a Monk receiving some kind of spell-deflection blessing from a spirit whose land they saved (and who is probably linked to their backstory in some way).
Just a small correction: the Sword and Sorcery subgenre of fantasy (invented by Robert E Howard in the pages of weird tales magazine) was a huge influence on DnD, but magic swords weren't particularly common compared to other fantasy subgenres.
The only major exception to this is Elric's sword Stormbringer, but Elric was specifically written to be the opposite of earlier S&S heroes (like Conan), in that he had to rely on magic and a magical sword instead of pure physical prowess.
The problem when comparing martials and casters isn't in damage output. Wizards struggle dealing the same single target damage a fairly competently built Fighter or Ranger can. A Cleric needs to dedicate their highest level slots on Spirit Guardians, so lose a lot of caster flexibility, in order to deal as much damage as martials.
The problem is utility, control and tactical options. Just giving martials more damage isn't truly solving anything.
No, but allowing Martials to be even better within their area of speciality is a positive thing. Part of the issue is really that Martials are not sufficiently better at single target damage to make up for everything else.
Plus I did mention utility. Martials often get a lot more from utility items than casters do, I just focussed on damage because it was the main subject of the post and the easiest to directly illustrate.
I really like giving them weapons with utility aside from just damage. But it does seem some people don't really like that, it flies in the face of being "dude with a sword" when the sword can cast Commune once per day or something.
I personally love that you are mentioning uttility. I prefer clever utility items to just big smash attack powers. Luck stone is one of my absolute favorite items.
Screw the tables, I genuinely think games are better off if magic items are hand picked by DMs so you don’t end up with a situation where there’s an amulet of the devout +1 in a party where there’s no cleric or paladin.
Even further than that, I’d maybe suggest DMs listen to players and ask if there are any specific magic items they want their character to have.
Maybe i want my ascendent dragon monk to have a dragon wrath weapon or my cleric of Bahamut to have a dragon touched focus
Maybe another player wants their stars Druid to have a robe of stars
>one of the main genre archetypes is swords and sorcery. It follows a pattern of stories with warriors armed with magic swords battling monsters and magic. Give your heroes their magic swords!!
Hear hear!
Just gave my paladin a version of a flame tongue Greatsword that lets him pop a dragon scale in the pommel and change the damage type. He's saved a blue dragon and killed a white dragon since, so he has Lightning and Cold options now. He has to invoke the name of the dragon that owned the scale.
He's in a party of full casters. He's buying more dice this week.
That would quite literally be the highlight of my day. I call it the Wyrmtongue Greatsword! Has to be a dragon scale, MUST know the name of the dragon, and dragons are going to demand a lot from the player if they want to bargain for it rather than take it. This limits it in a way that incentivizes the player to bite on quest hooks!
Thank you! My players are kind of hooked on versatility because I like to hit em with unexpected (but telegraphed) resistances and immunities. Plus, they asked for me to do anything I can get More Dragon in the game lol
You should hunt that maybe he could try popping other things in there and see what happens. Or he could put a dragon fang in there and get a bonus attack that does 1d6 piercing plus all the other modifiers or something.
I too love everything about this item. Question, does it matter if the dragon is chromatic or metalic? Like will a red scale do the same as a gold? I was thinking maybe mood affectors or possible side abilities that blossum from using those specifics.
I love the idea that the scale origin has an effect! That's a dope idea. I am mostly using it for RP effects at the moment! Menacing vs holy aura since he's a vengeance pally
Yeah, I was thinking like a red would make you angier, or a bronze could give you water breathing. Maybe as a spell or short term effect. I hope you do not mind if I take your idea and expand on it with different effects for each type of dragon?
If you're above 11 there should be a way to find them. Either go on a quest or something. There's a reason most magic items for casters either give spell slots or ways to cast spells on their turn without using slots while weapons add other damaging effects.
Personally, I think you should give at least two to each damage dealer, because it's one thing to throw a pudding at a party that deals a lot of slashing damage normally. It's another thing completely if you throw that at them and they can't do any other type of damage. Of course if they have a feature like Path of the Giant Barbarian that allows for flexibility then have at it and give them something that does maybe psychic or force damage as well.
Some people feel like it adds to the story to make them rare. If the table likes it then cool.
Edit: I can't ever shut up. I will say that most weapons will be rare if you follow the DMG loot guidelines. Honestly, the only thing I hate about that is random loot can feel really bad if someone has a certain idea about their character. For example a friend of mine loves 2-handed swords. Every character uses them. If you don't accommodate that, it can feel really bad. It's not even being an optimizer. It's just his particular fantasy. He likes swords.
The other thing I'll add is it can be really easy to manage your own loot table and leave out all the nick nacks people usually get using the random loot table. Don't forget about that stuff. I can be really neat occasionally getting to break out that bag of tricks or wand of wonder.
Meanwhile I... Have never DMed a campaign that didn't have one (or something similar) 😂
Hell, one campaign had a Frostbrand, a Flametongue, *and* a different fire weapon.
I ran my players through Tales from the Yawning Portal, and they got a flame tongue shortsword, a frost brand greatsword (... right before advancing to an area full of frost giants, RIP), and in exchange for returning Blackrazor to its rightful owner in White Plume Mountain instead of keeping the legendary weapon for themselves, I gave everyone a rare item of their choice, with the option of some homebrew. The samurai fighter asked for a Sun Blade that was a greatsword instead of a longsword. I gave it to him, and the _very first_ two encounters in the next dungeon had enemies with Sunlight Hypersensitivity. He was very pleased with his selection.
Back in 3.5 I designed a really cool weapon for a barbarian. They had a class ability that reduced all incoming damage by 1 (and later by 2), so I gave them a weapon that dealt 1 damage every round to the wielder and also an additional damage 1 damage to targets.
Later we updated that to 1 or 2d6. It was a lot of fun and thematic. It also kept other people from taking his weapon.
I put a coral trident in my game that could spend 1 charge (of 7) on hit to reduce the target's Dex by 1d4, and if the effect reduced their Dex to 0 they became permanently petrified and transmuted into coral. The character wielding it also took 1 piercing every attack... unless they had Natural Armor, Unarmored Defense, or were wearing Heavy Armor. The boss whose cold, dead hands they took it from was a sahuagin with barbarian features, and as soon as they identified its properties the party barbarian (who had already been using a trident) wanted it.
I didn't even make the item specifically for that character, since I designed it before the players made characters.
I think this is the kind of thing that varies a lot by DM and campaign. I use them all the time in my games or when I homebrew items I will often have it get an extra d6 damage in addition to other features. But yeah I agree items like that are key to martials having any chance at keeping up damage wise. If you've never seen them in use I might talk to your DM about that as it does really hinder martials to not get good magic items that boost them, especially into higher levels.
Though especially at higher levels the divide between casters and martials is more about the utility and control that casters can offer. Martials can do a lot of damage, and with magic weapons that are good they can really secure that. But casters can teleport the group across the world, can paralyze a monster instantly ending a fight, can throw up a wall of force that can't be dispelled or passed through. All sorts of other things that are way beyond the power of a martial. I often like giving weapons that do a bit of both. So the martial can do more damage, but can also get some utility or abilities maybe to use outside of combat or boost their combat potential.
My first dm for 5th ed made it clear we were never seeing more than the very occasional magical item, and at best that would be a +1 magic item. He also wanted it to be like R.E. Howards world where magic users were 90% the bad guy, and never the adventurers, and might be some helpful priest here or there. I hated his world and he is why I became a dm.
Glad you stepped out and became a DM then!
It always surprises me that DMs who want to run a low magic game seem to ignore most low magic stories, where the heroes are the exception to the rule. The world is low magic, but you still have the protagonists with their big direwolves, people who can warg into animals and see through their senses, wear other faces, have magic swords, have multiple pet dragons. You can do low magic stories, but they generally work better when the heroes are the exception and the ones running into magic getting items, or getting magical powers.
The final straw for me was when my elven monk was paralized for most of a session from an attack from a ghoul. I could not roll high enough to break it and probably because it was his homebrew world, my elf was somehow paralyzed by a fricken ghoul.
I run high magic items and love making my own magic items and I have the Weapons of Legacy book as inspiration for magic item creation in my world. Alsohave the Magic Item Compendium. But I love the concept of items (weapons is just the name, can be a suit of armor, a hat, a sword, a cloak, whatever) that grow in power with the characters. My favorite magic items I have created are the Ring of the Illythid (power based off the design of the Rings of Elemental Command) as a legendary, and the Wand of Watoomb. Both as an artifact and a WoL.
I do not think they should be as rare as they often seem to be.
I agree with your points.
To add, I think a big part of the fun in the game is advancing your character (this is coming from a DM). Magic items is one of the three ways to advance your character, others being leveling up or having some kind of story arc. Leveling is often seldom and story arcs can take months, or even years. That leaves magic items as a nice way to keep spirits high (at least that I've found).
These items can indeed be rare in the world. That does not mean they need to be rare for your party. The party is already, at level 1, and exceptional group of individuals. By level 5 they are adventuring into places small armies wouldn't dare to go. That being said, they should be discovering the rare treasures the world as to offer.
Yeah. I wrote a comment asking if magic shops existed in those campaigns/ worlds.
Even if you need to make it a quest. The magic item seller lives at a top of x mountain.
Or an anceint dungeon full of monsters is rumored to have anceint magic items deep inside.
Something.
Or my DM might just really love giving out magic items.
Yeah I don't really know. Most games I've been a player in, the shops are usually pretty sparse when it comes to that stuff, and I've always kind of found it disappointing.
My vendors will usually have *something* of the magical variety, even if just some potions.
Usually the rarer stuff is found on the roads, or on traveling / hidden merchants that took some work to get to.
I also like having a reoccurring merchant that is introduced early on and who's inventory grows as the group progresses.
Yes see that makes sense. So many people on here seem to be following the books a little too much.
Oh this item is rare thus we never see it ever. Like what no. It's your world throw in as many magic items as you want.
I think narratively it makes a lot of sense for the martials in an adventuring part to find a magic weapon but not be able to buy/afford them. I feel like in dnd you often have to answer the question of “why do we have to do this and not the authorities?”
The fact that you have a magic weapon but it is not something just anyone can get would be a good reason why you can take on monsters that others cannot. Especially in a world where so many monsters are resistant or immune to regular weapon attacks.
>why do we have to do this and not the authorities?
The answer to this is almost always cost. If 1 cp = $1, and 1 gp = $100, then a 5,000 gp Rare magic item is worth $500,000. Very few "authorities" are going to spend that kind of money on a single personal weapon unless it's for their most elite forces.
Instructions clear. Headed to Fantasy America for my magic weapon needs. Gonna take advantage of the Magitilary Industrial Complex and get the most bleeding edge Magic Swords available.
It depends entirely on the world you're playing in.
I give out magic items like this all the time. It helps players feel powerful and cool. But I also make sure the world is prepared for weapons this dangerous.
Do your DMs not put magic shops in their games?
Everytime we are in a city we go shopping and always find the magic item seller even if we have to go crawling through the sewers.
And are DM will ask if we are looking for a specific item. Something random. Or if we say I want to see the magic bow or swords.
Rarity imo is all up to the DM.
Not shops that sell decent magic items. I think in all of my games by the time I was level 7 the most I ever had as a +1 weapon or two, and either had to undermine the lack of magic items with improvised guerilla weapons like by creating makeshift grenades using an oil flasks, ball bearings, and fuses, or by outright asking for items the DM wouldn't know about.
I don't think *any* of my dungeon masters over the last 7 years have been very rewarding at all.
That sounds so sad.
My DM gives use one major magic item per dungeon. Or at least we find at least one. There are dozens of rooms we don't even enter.
And as I said. Some kind of magic vendor in large major cities we go to.
Hell last session my wizard was shopping for a sword (because I am multiclassing into a fighter as part of the story) and I just asked hey does this shop happen to have any magic swords.
He immediately said oh yes we do but we don't know what they do so buy at your own risk. So my character bought it. I still don't know what it does yet as that was the last thing in our session but will be excited to see what it does.
I would talk to your DM and your group and see waht they think about adding more items. I think adding magic items makes this more wild and fun. Maybe part of the campaign can be hunting down the last known location of a certain item/items the group wants.
It really is, even if I can make up with it with my smarts on occasion it's really a big issue when my party's Druid is consistently doing several tens more damage more than me despite me being the class BUILT around doing damage and attacking things. Even our Ranger is able to dual-wield pistols but the most I have so far is weapons that aren't really working out well.
Oh yeah that sucks.
Next session have your character say, my weapons suck anyone want to magic item hunting.
Or straight up ask your Dm if that path is an option. I wouldn't want to ambush the DM with something they don't have planned.
Good luck.
>Do your DMs not put magic shops in their games?
Often, no they do not. The "buying a magic item" downtime activity indicates that magic item shops are not intended to be _a thing that exists_ in 5e. The downtime activity represents spending a week or more hunting down a private seller.
In my opinion unless your magic sword allows the martials more utility and control that's not going to help as much with the divide after the first few levels in. In my experience martials will generally out-damage the casters unless specific conditions are present ie a great value fireball opportunity. But their damage can't plane shift or polymorph or any number of the utility things casters can do that isn't damage
Yes and no. They balance encounters not assuming you'll get a boost from magic weapons as that would be too complicated. But magic items make up a large section of the DMG and many of their other published books. Every adventure they've released has included magic items. It's not like they thought they weren't a core part of the game. Not to mention at higher levels there are many monsters just fully immune to nonmagic weapons. I don't think they're assuming that when fighting those your fighter just sits out the fight.
There is a difference between the devs recognizing that magic items are popular with players, and including them, and designing the game to require them--which is to say, assuming player characters will have them.
There's also a difference between saying "the game assumes you never get any magic items", and the game balancing CR without them to avoid all the complications of trying to judge off different magic items and various powers they'd give. They are a core part of the game and the devs know that the vast majority of PCs will get magic items and have multiple of them by the time the character retires. But they don't want the game to fall apart if you don't have them for whatever reason or ever require having a specific magic item. But the devs know that it's a core part of the game that magic items exist and characters will get them and use them, and they spent a good amount of the core rules giving magic items to choose from.
And it was a stupid design choice that players shouldn't hesitate to reject, or at least it was stupid in conjunction with the other design choices they made regarding the balance between martials and casters.
If this were true then "treat x as magic weapons" not only wouldn't be a core feature of two PHB classes, they wouldn't be put in at the exact same level. Additionally magic weapons wouldn't be included in the base ruleset, nor would they be integrated into the beginner adventures.
The only way you can come to the conclusion that the game assumes you never get any magic items is if you've never read the core rulebooks or played any adventure written by the designers. Aka you'd have to pull the idea out of your ass.
"Treat [X] as magic weapons" features actually support the idea that you're not really expected to get magic weapons otherwise.
If those features weren't present, then those classes *would* be required to obtain magic items in order to keep up with higher level play. *With* those features, those classes can keep on keepin' on with mundane equipment.
I don't think that's true. The features show up for things like when a monk is punching. You get them so that you can continue to use your unarmed strikes but that's not a problem for you to deal with resistances. But you're getting them on the attacks that you couldn't use a magic weapon for. It feels like less of a feature and more like a realization that without that their unarmed strikes wouldn't be very viable.
Y=5 doesn't change X=3. As ive already addressed. And as your quote literally states, its designed so you can succeed without magic items only so long as a large chunk of the monster manual is not used. Also, twitter interactions are homebrew, please stop thinking they're actual rulings. If they were rulings they wouldve been put in an officially released update to the book.
>its designed so you can succeed without magic items only so long as a large chunk of the monster manual is not used
Where did it say this
>Also, twitter interactions are homebrew, please stop thinking they're actual rulings.
Its not a ruling its a question and answer about the design intent of the game
No, the only way you can come to this conclusion is to read what the devs of the game have said in interviews, where they say their goal for the combat design was that players would never need magic items to be effective.
Yes, they are the same thing. If the game assumed you got magic items, it would not work properly if you didn't get magic items. The systems work just fine with no magic items.
Not replying to the other person because they are seemingly taking this point extremely personally, but I don't even think it's a grammar issue. You are being too kind. The statements have markedly different meanings. One is talking about minimum requirements, the other is talking about the expectations the game is balanced around. It's entirely plausible to balance difficulty around a party having a certain threshold of magical items, while at the same time ensuring that the difficulty is not so high that it *can't be completed without magical items*. I see a lot of people banging their heads against this logic, but they won't be able to explain when this individual is intentionally avoiding seeing reason.
Oh, there’s no kindness. I was pointing out that there’s no way someone could be this deliberately obtuse unless he didn’t have a full grasp of the English language. I got a “I know you are but what am I?” response that showed it’s more likely he’s just a child who’s doubling down when shown he’s wrong.
Untold numbers of creatures are resistant or immune to non-magical damage. Designers can say whatever they want on a podcast, but their words do not jive with the reality of what is going on in the game.
I agree. It is a matter of poor design rather than deception.
https://99percentinvisible.org/article/norman-doors-dont-know-whether-push-pull-blame-design/
The non-magical resistance thing is actually because magic weapons aren't assumed to be a thing. If they were, those resists/immunities wouldn't exist in the first place and would be replaced with more interesting damage type resistances or adding a ton of extra HP to the creature.
I am unclear as to what you’re trying to say here. Do you mean “magic weapons aren’t assumed to be a thing” in regard to PCs owning them? Or existing at all? Why would the designers include a resistance that can be bypassed with an item that is in the book and there are literally dozens of pages of rules addressing how to provide your players access to them and detailing the abilities of those items? Maybe I’m crazy, but I bet we’re supposed to use the stuff they put in the books.
> I am unclear as to what you’re trying to say here. Do you mean “magic weapons aren’t assumed to be a thing” in regard to PCs owning them?
In possession of them.
> Why would the designers include a resistance that can be bypassed with an item that is in the book and there are literally dozens of pages of rules addressing how to provide your players access to them and detailing the abilities of those items? Maybe I’m crazy, but I bet we’re supposed to use the stuff they put in the books.
If you're assumed to be using a magic weapon, the resistance means nothing. There are too many creatures with that resistance to come to the conclusion that magic weapons are assumed to be in use. Because, if the devs assumed you had a magic weapon, why bother including a resistance that is shut off entirely by it? It doesn't make any sense to design a creature with a resistance that you expect won't be relevant.
You’re not assumed to always have a magical weapon. That makes monsters with resistance to normal weapons scary and tough.
But you are assumed to potentially have a magical weapon. That allows you to take down the scary and tough monsters you had a hard time with before you got your magical sword.
Getting your ass kicked all over the place by a monster and then coming back later to wrecks its shit and save the day after you obtain a magical sword is a very common trope in fantasy fiction and games.
That's fine before level 5, but I'm also talking later in the campaign. The amount of monsters with nonmagical resists or immunities doesn't make any sense if the designers assumed you'd have a magic weapon when fighting them.
Those resists come at the cost of monster health and other defensive abilities.
It completely makes sense. It’s a gatekeeping mechanism to preserve the feeling of heroic fantasy.
Why does the town need heroes to save them from the Monster that dwells beyond the hill over yonder when they’ve got a militia? Because only a magic blade can pierce its demonic hide.
Oh, no. The Monster has disarmed you, and your magic sword has fallen into the Pit of Despair. Better knock over that beam holding the cave ceiling up and hope the Monster is slowed down long enough for you to get out of this alive.
These examples are not exceptions to the rules. It’s how the game is meant to be played.
Media literacy is truly dead. The game is designed under the assumption you will have magic items. In fact level 1 classes start with magic items. What the devs said about not needing them is literally just that. You don't need magic items, but you are expected to have them.
Aside from being in the classes, in the suggestions in the dmg, it's also in the backgrounds for characters. And if we look at item tables you'll discover that ogre gauntlets are easier to acquire than plate armor.
You'd have to be an absolute buffoon to look at a full section of two of the core rulebooks being magic items, and how monsters in the third core rulebook directly interact with magic weapons and come to the backwards conclusion that it's expected that you don't have them. I cannot stress how the education system failed you if you see a clear pattern like 1+2=x and come to the conclusion that x=12
>In fact level 1 classes start with magic items.
Eh? No class gets magic items at level 1. Unless you think Magical Tinkering counts as "a magic item", but I think you'll have a hard time finding many people agreeing with you on that.
"Media literacy" ffs. Someone who designed the game tells you to your face that they want the game to be playable without magic items, and you think you know better than them.
This kind of misses the point, because dealing lots of single target damage is the one thing that martials are good at. I’m all in favour of DMs using magic items to minimise the disparity, but just giving them all flame tongues isn’t the way to do it, and of course this is only a DM action to paper over the cracks. The disparity is baked into the game and we really need an official overhaul to solve that, though One DnD looks to fall short in that regard.
Depends on the DM and the setting.
In my homebrew world, magical items can be crafted by those who know how. Very few people know how and crafting them is expensive. On top of that, secret rituals are employed to empower the items. Every magic item is empowered by a set of runes engraved on the item, but the runes are invisible to the naked eye. Those who know how to craft them may take 1 or 2 apprentices to teach them so the art isn't lost, but won't teach anyone else and will take their secrets to the grave. Some kings have tried to torture the secrets out of someone who knows, but that always ends with a frustrated king and either a dead or escaped prisoner.
Broken magical items can be repaired by reforging it, any damaged runes repaired, and the ritual of empowerment repeated.
This is how I explain why they're so rare in my world and how someone may get their hands on one if they can afford it and know who to ask.
You say +2 weapons dont hold up to a Flame Tongue or Frostbrand...but a +2 to hit and damage, something a Flame Tongue doesn't have adds immense value to both hit and damage. Especially if the creature is resistant to the bonus damage
If you have 65% chance to hit the target's AC normally and have +5 Str, a Flame Tongue Greatsword deals 13.05 damage on average (19\*0.65+14\*0.05), a Frost Brand Greatsword deals 10.6 damage on average (15.5\*0.65+10.5\*0.05), and a +2 Greatsword deals 10.85 damage on average (14\*0.75+7\*0.05).
I’m going to come right out and admit that my DM gave me a fire tongue longsword at level 4 and my character never even took it out of the sheath before giving it to another PC because she just doesn’t use bladed weapons. She’s built to exploit bludgeoning weapons and two handed weapons, and started the game with a +1 sundering maul.
She’s got a base damage of right now at level 5 of 2d6+6. I’m taking Gift of the Chromatic Dragon at level 6 and if I took GWM at level 8, then like OP said, that’s a potential base damage with elemental and power attacks of 2d6+1d4+16, which is a minimum of 19 damage with a floating elemental attack. It’s weaker than the static elemental attack of a flame tongue or frost brand, but not by much and it has the advantage of not being tied to a single elemental type or requiring attunement.
I'm running Curse of Strahd right now, so magic weapons and items are pretty damned rare. But most games I run, I'm pretty loose with magic weapons and stuff. I have fun with letting the players get overpowered and have their fun.
I think magic weapons should be less rare. Less rarity for the type of plusses we're getting.
More 1d4 and +1 weapons.
More 1d6 and some 1d8 and 1d10 magic weapons
Give them +1 and 2 and 3 versions also.
I know that there's a lot of homebrew, but if there were more official magic items with bonus magic damage at varying rarities people would be more willing to give them out and homebrew on par with their power.
For the first time ever, in a campaign I am currently in, I have received a Flame Tongue weapon.
The party had saved the Duke’s daughter. While we all saved her life together by freeing her from her captors, only two of us actually followed up on this and made sure she found her way home to the Duke’s guard fort safely. Upon arriving and safely seeing her home, the two of us were knighted and gifted a flame tongue weapon of whatever type we wanted (short/long/greatsword, rapier, etc).
Had everyone been there, I probably would have suggested the paladin or the kensei monk to take this weapon. However, it was just me, the bladesinging wizard, and my shadow sorcerer friend who are actually playing like good-aligned characters and took the time to complete the task while everyone goofed off.
I kept the weapon for myself, and it has been a game changer. Previously, I had to rely on casting shadowblade to make my damage worth going into melee and using bladesong. Now I am viable in melee whenever I need to be! Additionally, if I really want to be spicy, I can dual wield the flame tongue shortsword and shadowblade. Or I can cast haste on myself for an extra swing with the flame tongue if the enemy is not resistant to fire.
Analyzing some of what I had mapped out for my character, I thought I was going to be stuck concentrating on shadowblade for nearly every combat. But because of my DMs gift of weapon, I can concentrate on whatever I want and still get decent damage out of my melee attacks.
Would highly suggest being open to these weapons if you have trust in your players and want to reward anyone!
+2 and +3 weapons are more effective for the better builds than frost brand or flame tongue weapons. When you're eating a -5/+10, that +2 or +3 to hit is a big deal.
Depends on which ones you're referring to. Overall, no, not at all. It's not that outrageous for a person to make hiccup's flaming blade. However enchanted weapons rather than just ingenious invention, there in lies the issue. Not many enchanters exist.
The martial/caster divide is about legacy and the way editions were received. Martials get power increases one by one, such as their attacks, while the power levels of casters increases exponentially with spell levels. You can feel the game shutter whenever a wizard or sorcerer gets to 5th level and gets access to counterspell and fireball. You can feel it again when they get to 7th level and get polymorph. Again when they have access to wall of force, and again for every 2 levels. People called it "linear martials and quadratic wizards".
In earlier editions, martials leveled up faster, so they would get powerful first. Meanwhile, wizards started their adventuring lives very weak. You rolled your HP at first level, so you could start with 1 or 2 hp, one spell "slot" and no cantrips. But then, at later levels, you would be able to shape reality, and that was the exchange for such a lowly start. Keep in mind that if you died back then, you'd need to start at 1st level again, so it was actually really hard to have a high level magic user.
They kinda solved it for 4e, but people didn't like it. Everyone had the same amount of at will powers, per-day powers and per-encounter powers, but people found that it made every class feel samey. So for 5e they kinda reversed to the way it worked before.
As for magic items, the big bubble to pop is resistances and immunities, and any magic weapon will pop it, so it's ok give them the powerful items early. It may become an issue at higher levels for longer games, If you want a steady flow of magic items. You may find yourself out of options at later levels when you gave out a flametongue at 4th level, and now your players will not care about the +1 or +2 weapon they find. You lose some of the sense of progress and the yearn for looking for cooler magic items if you give the coolest first.
I had this problem with my first game as a DM. I had a kind of videogamey sense for magic items, so when my players already had plate mail, I thought that giving out any magic armor that didn't increase AC was pointless, so they only found magical plate mails, nothing else. This thinking applied to weapons and everything else. It came to a point around tier 3 and 4 where, if I wanted them to find "better" loot, I had to shoot myself in the foot by giving crazy powerful items, and even homebrewing them.
To sum up, IMO, I think the class themselves must narrow the gap between casters and martials, unless the game expects as to give more magic items, which it doesn't. Also, I try to make every +1 and +2 weapons a bit more special, tying some nice lore and adding cool but not so strong effects.
Maybe the simple +1 shortsword is "Bolt", a elven made sword blessed by Rillifane Rallathil, made in the style of the great elven smiths of Illefar, and it was last wielded by Lierin Araberos to defeat the fire giant king. You can decide to deal ligthning or thunder damage instead of slashing with it. Also, you can cast druidcraft with this sword, and you have advantage on initiative on thunderstorms.
On one hand, if you need a magic item to complete your build, you have a bad build.
On the other hand, no matter how strong a fighter or barbarian are, unless their subclass allows them access to some alternative damage type a level 20 battlemaster fighter or Totem Warrior barbarian armed with the best but mundane equipment will never beat a werewolf in a 1v1. Even with useful subclasses, you're doing subpar damage against many types of high level threats and even some mid level threats if you never have any magic items.
Whereas casters and even half casters have far more exponential growth. Magic items closes the gap but _only_ if the magic casters don't also get any magic items to make a strong class stronger.
No. It's one of the things I think DMs consistently get wrong and I have argued as much frequently. Firstly, as you point out the gap between martials and casters narrows significantly with magic items. Magic weapons massively increase the damage of martials, even more so with the traditionally weaker classes like fighter and monk who have no magic but lots of attacks. In addition, utility magic items add a lot more options for martials, helping narrow the out of combat gap. That is even before you get into the advantages of doing magical damage against many enemies. Secondly, one of the main genre archetypes is swords and sorcery. It follows a pattern of stories with warriors armed with magic swords battling monsters and magic. Give your heroes their magic swords!! I think it is getting more recognised as well, the tables in Xanathars are a lot more generous when it comes to magic items and recommend many more than I think most DMs give.
I mean, magic items do make martials more powerful and give them new tools, but they can do the same thing for magic users. And while the martial/caster divide exists, giving lots of good magic items to ONLY the martials at your table would make the magic user players feel pretty bad
Martials generally benifit more. Even post Xanathars, where a whole bunch of new items for casters were introduced, magic weapons (and armour) are more common than spellcasting focuses. On top of that, many spellcasting focuses only increase spell attack rolls rather than spell save DC or damage, which is a lot weaker for most casters. More importantly martials have multiple attacks, which makes a +x weapon more impactful, even more so if it is a +dx damage weapon like flame tongue. A fighter at level 11 is getting the bonus damage up to three times, potentially more with bonus action or reaction based builds. Then look at utility items. Something simple like a Cape of the Mounteblank gives a Wizard one extra single function spell slot, it gives a fighter an ability they normally have nothing close to, that specifically solves many out of combat obstacles and addresses one of their main weaknesses in combat. That is a big difference.
It's a big difference that highlights just how big of a gap higher level spells are though. As you say, Fighters need a full Rare (iirc) item to replicate a single usage of a spell (with some added smoke). Martials only benefit more, because they have a huge gap to cross, and magic items give them a taste of what casters can do naturally. The +X weapons are *crucial* for a lot of martials just to keep up, honestly, and even then it just helps them do the one thing they're good at: DPR.
It isn't just that they have a huge gap to cross, it's also that they benifit a lot more from many of those spells. A major weakness of martials is that they tend to lack mobility for example, dimension door is a game changer in that respect, far more so than it is for a caster. Yes it does highlight the advantages of higher level spells, but it also lets martials do a little magic whilst crushing it in the damage department.
I agree about magic items for martials in general; but I disagree about magic weapons like Flame Tongue/Frostbrand. >Magic weapons massively increase the damage of martials, even more so with the traditionally weaker classes like fighter and monk who have no magic but lots of attacks. For one thing, Fighter is one of the strongest martials and half-martials, not the weakest. For another, DAMAGE has _never_ been an issue with martials in general. Martials do _plenty_ of damage and they do it far more reliably than casters. What martials are missing is everything BESIDES damage, so Flame Tongue, Frostbrand, and other weapons that just add more damage do NOT fix the issue or close the gap, at all. The thing casters have over martials is _versatility_ in combat and _utility_ outside of combat. So if you want to fix that, give your martials magic items that fix THAT. Give your heroes their magic swords! - that _deflect enemy magic_, or do some debuff that sets up an ally's combo, or lets you fly/leap/climb to attack enemies you normally couldn't, or gives you one charge of "Get out of Debuff Jail Free". Do NOT give them weapons that just buff their damage but don't do anything _interesting_. And you can even go back to those very stories of sword and sorcery for ideas. Deflecting magic with your magic sword/shield? Happens all the time there. Escaping an illusion or whatever by the hero focusing their will and doing something clever with said magic weapon? Also happens all the time. >the tables in Xanathars are a lot more generous when it comes to magic items and recommend many more than I think most DMs give. This is not true. If you math out the Xanathars tables they are only _slightly_ more generous than the DMG, and it sounds like you're confused about major and minor items possibly - an entire party of adventurers is still only getting 100 magic items total by 20th level, and 80 of those will be consumables like potions/scrolls/etc, and the large majority of even those 20 permanent magic items are being accrued after 10th level (after most campaigns have ended). * I will add a caveat - the above is based on a campaign that is running a reasonable number of encounters per day (at least 3+ in my experience), and has martials that are built moderately well. As always, a DM should cater their loot to the group somewhat. If you're running only 1-2 encounters a day, the casters are going to absolutely stunt on your martials _regardless_, damage and otherwise. If your martials are built poorly because you have very new players who don't know the game well, but your caster PCs know the right spells to pick, your martials' damage might be so sub-par throwing in magic weapons that just do damage is fine (though I'd still _also_ give them stuff that lets them do other things). And then there's the other issue with using magic items to "bolster" martials in general...how do you make sure they get to the martial PCs instead of being snapped up by the casters? Especially when they do more than just extra weapon damage?
I have an artificer that I would love to play that would be creating a sword that can potentially paralyze enemies so he can set up combos with it if it pops off (monster con saves tend to be strong), as well as a cloak that's basically just the boots of speed on steroids so that he can weaponize his movement speed to burn enemies' reactions by deliberately triggering opportunity attacks, and what you said is the main reason why: it makes his stuff more versatile.
Yeah, makes sense! I will say that my own answer to the question I pose above (how do you get the magic items to the martials that need them?) in my campaigns is actually similar to that - much like how Artificer making cool shit is its own class feature, I tend to give martials "cool things to do" via special boons/charms/additional class features they earn or discover through play, instead of just magic item loot. That way I know exactly who's getting it, whether it be a Rogue learning how to teleport around from a Horizon Walker NPC, or a Monk receiving some kind of spell-deflection blessing from a spirit whose land they saved (and who is probably linked to their backstory in some way).
Just a small correction: the Sword and Sorcery subgenre of fantasy (invented by Robert E Howard in the pages of weird tales magazine) was a huge influence on DnD, but magic swords weren't particularly common compared to other fantasy subgenres. The only major exception to this is Elric's sword Stormbringer, but Elric was specifically written to be the opposite of earlier S&S heroes (like Conan), in that he had to rely on magic and a magical sword instead of pure physical prowess.
You are technically correct. The best sort of correct.
The problem when comparing martials and casters isn't in damage output. Wizards struggle dealing the same single target damage a fairly competently built Fighter or Ranger can. A Cleric needs to dedicate their highest level slots on Spirit Guardians, so lose a lot of caster flexibility, in order to deal as much damage as martials. The problem is utility, control and tactical options. Just giving martials more damage isn't truly solving anything.
No, but allowing Martials to be even better within their area of speciality is a positive thing. Part of the issue is really that Martials are not sufficiently better at single target damage to make up for everything else. Plus I did mention utility. Martials often get a lot more from utility items than casters do, I just focussed on damage because it was the main subject of the post and the easiest to directly illustrate.
I really like giving them weapons with utility aside from just damage. But it does seem some people don't really like that, it flies in the face of being "dude with a sword" when the sword can cast Commune once per day or something.
That's very true, weapons that do fun things and add flexibility are always great. Especially RP based custom weapons tailored to the character.
They are wrong to diss the Sword of Omens. Lion-o would be so disappointed.
I personally love that you are mentioning uttility. I prefer clever utility items to just big smash attack powers. Luck stone is one of my absolute favorite items.
Screw the tables, I genuinely think games are better off if magic items are hand picked by DMs so you don’t end up with a situation where there’s an amulet of the devout +1 in a party where there’s no cleric or paladin. Even further than that, I’d maybe suggest DMs listen to players and ask if there are any specific magic items they want their character to have. Maybe i want my ascendent dragon monk to have a dragon wrath weapon or my cleric of Bahamut to have a dragon touched focus Maybe another player wants their stars Druid to have a robe of stars
>one of the main genre archetypes is swords and sorcery. It follows a pattern of stories with warriors armed with magic swords battling monsters and magic. Give your heroes their magic swords!! Hear hear!
Just gave my paladin a version of a flame tongue Greatsword that lets him pop a dragon scale in the pommel and change the damage type. He's saved a blue dragon and killed a white dragon since, so he has Lightning and Cold options now. He has to invoke the name of the dragon that owned the scale. He's in a party of full casters. He's buying more dice this week.
That's a pretty rad change for the item with neat flavour to it, mind if I borrow it for the repertoire?
That would quite literally be the highlight of my day. I call it the Wyrmtongue Greatsword! Has to be a dragon scale, MUST know the name of the dragon, and dragons are going to demand a lot from the player if they want to bargain for it rather than take it. This limits it in a way that incentivizes the player to bite on quest hooks!
>Wyrmtongue Greatsword *>* Look inside \> Dragon's Scale
My paladin has a habit of cutting caster tongues out, a habit I was trying not to indulge further lol
Wyrm ≈ scaly thing with any combination of pairs of scaly batlike wings and pairs of scaly leg
okay explain the tongue now
Weapon's based on the Flametongue type of magical weapons
That brings me to my second point, you claim this blade is a “flametongue” but I have yet to ascertain which beast it hauls from.
stealing it! holy shit thats amazing
Thank you and glad to hear! I'll make a little write-up item description-y thing for it when I get a moment.
"cover me, i'm reloading!" "you're reloading your sword?"
That is an awesome idea for a magic item
Thank you! My players are kind of hooked on versatility because I like to hit em with unexpected (but telegraphed) resistances and immunities. Plus, they asked for me to do anything I can get More Dragon in the game lol
You should hunt that maybe he could try popping other things in there and see what happens. Or he could put a dragon fang in there and get a bonus attack that does 1d6 piercing plus all the other modifiers or something.
I too love everything about this item. Question, does it matter if the dragon is chromatic or metalic? Like will a red scale do the same as a gold? I was thinking maybe mood affectors or possible side abilities that blossum from using those specifics.
I love the idea that the scale origin has an effect! That's a dope idea. I am mostly using it for RP effects at the moment! Menacing vs holy aura since he's a vengeance pally
Yeah, I was thinking like a red would make you angier, or a bronze could give you water breathing. Maybe as a spell or short term effect. I hope you do not mind if I take your idea and expand on it with different effects for each type of dragon?
That would be delightful and I would love to know what you come up with!
If you're above 11 there should be a way to find them. Either go on a quest or something. There's a reason most magic items for casters either give spell slots or ways to cast spells on their turn without using slots while weapons add other damaging effects. Personally, I think you should give at least two to each damage dealer, because it's one thing to throw a pudding at a party that deals a lot of slashing damage normally. It's another thing completely if you throw that at them and they can't do any other type of damage. Of course if they have a feature like Path of the Giant Barbarian that allows for flexibility then have at it and give them something that does maybe psychic or force damage as well. Some people feel like it adds to the story to make them rare. If the table likes it then cool. Edit: I can't ever shut up. I will say that most weapons will be rare if you follow the DMG loot guidelines. Honestly, the only thing I hate about that is random loot can feel really bad if someone has a certain idea about their character. For example a friend of mine loves 2-handed swords. Every character uses them. If you don't accommodate that, it can feel really bad. It's not even being an optimizer. It's just his particular fantasy. He likes swords. The other thing I'll add is it can be really easy to manage your own loot table and leave out all the nick nacks people usually get using the random loot table. Don't forget about that stuff. I can be really neat occasionally getting to break out that bag of tricks or wand of wonder.
I’ve played for 30 years and have had a Frostbrand once. Never a Flametongue. Had a Sunblade twice.
Meanwhile I... Have never DMed a campaign that didn't have one (or something similar) 😂 Hell, one campaign had a Frostbrand, a Flametongue, *and* a different fire weapon.
I ran my players through Tales from the Yawning Portal, and they got a flame tongue shortsword, a frost brand greatsword (... right before advancing to an area full of frost giants, RIP), and in exchange for returning Blackrazor to its rightful owner in White Plume Mountain instead of keeping the legendary weapon for themselves, I gave everyone a rare item of their choice, with the option of some homebrew. The samurai fighter asked for a Sun Blade that was a greatsword instead of a longsword. I gave it to him, and the _very first_ two encounters in the next dungeon had enemies with Sunlight Hypersensitivity. He was very pleased with his selection.
Back in 3.5 I designed a really cool weapon for a barbarian. They had a class ability that reduced all incoming damage by 1 (and later by 2), so I gave them a weapon that dealt 1 damage every round to the wielder and also an additional damage 1 damage to targets. Later we updated that to 1 or 2d6. It was a lot of fun and thematic. It also kept other people from taking his weapon.
I put a coral trident in my game that could spend 1 charge (of 7) on hit to reduce the target's Dex by 1d4, and if the effect reduced their Dex to 0 they became permanently petrified and transmuted into coral. The character wielding it also took 1 piercing every attack... unless they had Natural Armor, Unarmored Defense, or were wearing Heavy Armor. The boss whose cold, dead hands they took it from was a sahuagin with barbarian features, and as soon as they identified its properties the party barbarian (who had already been using a trident) wanted it. I didn't even make the item specifically for that character, since I designed it before the players made characters.
I think this is the kind of thing that varies a lot by DM and campaign. I use them all the time in my games or when I homebrew items I will often have it get an extra d6 damage in addition to other features. But yeah I agree items like that are key to martials having any chance at keeping up damage wise. If you've never seen them in use I might talk to your DM about that as it does really hinder martials to not get good magic items that boost them, especially into higher levels. Though especially at higher levels the divide between casters and martials is more about the utility and control that casters can offer. Martials can do a lot of damage, and with magic weapons that are good they can really secure that. But casters can teleport the group across the world, can paralyze a monster instantly ending a fight, can throw up a wall of force that can't be dispelled or passed through. All sorts of other things that are way beyond the power of a martial. I often like giving weapons that do a bit of both. So the martial can do more damage, but can also get some utility or abilities maybe to use outside of combat or boost their combat potential.
My first dm for 5th ed made it clear we were never seeing more than the very occasional magical item, and at best that would be a +1 magic item. He also wanted it to be like R.E. Howards world where magic users were 90% the bad guy, and never the adventurers, and might be some helpful priest here or there. I hated his world and he is why I became a dm.
Glad you stepped out and became a DM then! It always surprises me that DMs who want to run a low magic game seem to ignore most low magic stories, where the heroes are the exception to the rule. The world is low magic, but you still have the protagonists with their big direwolves, people who can warg into animals and see through their senses, wear other faces, have magic swords, have multiple pet dragons. You can do low magic stories, but they generally work better when the heroes are the exception and the ones running into magic getting items, or getting magical powers.
The final straw for me was when my elven monk was paralized for most of a session from an attack from a ghoul. I could not roll high enough to break it and probably because it was his homebrew world, my elf was somehow paralyzed by a fricken ghoul. I run high magic items and love making my own magic items and I have the Weapons of Legacy book as inspiration for magic item creation in my world. Alsohave the Magic Item Compendium. But I love the concept of items (weapons is just the name, can be a suit of armor, a hat, a sword, a cloak, whatever) that grow in power with the characters. My favorite magic items I have created are the Ring of the Illythid (power based off the design of the Rings of Elemental Command) as a legendary, and the Wand of Watoomb. Both as an artifact and a WoL.
I do not think they should be as rare as they often seem to be. I agree with your points. To add, I think a big part of the fun in the game is advancing your character (this is coming from a DM). Magic items is one of the three ways to advance your character, others being leveling up or having some kind of story arc. Leveling is often seldom and story arcs can take months, or even years. That leaves magic items as a nice way to keep spirits high (at least that I've found). These items can indeed be rare in the world. That does not mean they need to be rare for your party. The party is already, at level 1, and exceptional group of individuals. By level 5 they are adventuring into places small armies wouldn't dare to go. That being said, they should be discovering the rare treasures the world as to offer.
Yeah. I wrote a comment asking if magic shops existed in those campaigns/ worlds. Even if you need to make it a quest. The magic item seller lives at a top of x mountain. Or an anceint dungeon full of monsters is rumored to have anceint magic items deep inside. Something. Or my DM might just really love giving out magic items.
Yeah I don't really know. Most games I've been a player in, the shops are usually pretty sparse when it comes to that stuff, and I've always kind of found it disappointing. My vendors will usually have *something* of the magical variety, even if just some potions. Usually the rarer stuff is found on the roads, or on traveling / hidden merchants that took some work to get to. I also like having a reoccurring merchant that is introduced early on and who's inventory grows as the group progresses.
Yes see that makes sense. So many people on here seem to be following the books a little too much. Oh this item is rare thus we never see it ever. Like what no. It's your world throw in as many magic items as you want.
I think narratively it makes a lot of sense for the martials in an adventuring part to find a magic weapon but not be able to buy/afford them. I feel like in dnd you often have to answer the question of “why do we have to do this and not the authorities?” The fact that you have a magic weapon but it is not something just anyone can get would be a good reason why you can take on monsters that others cannot. Especially in a world where so many monsters are resistant or immune to regular weapon attacks.
>why do we have to do this and not the authorities? The answer to this is almost always cost. If 1 cp = $1, and 1 gp = $100, then a 5,000 gp Rare magic item is worth $500,000. Very few "authorities" are going to spend that kind of money on a single personal weapon unless it's for their most elite forces.
Instructions clear. Headed to Fantasy America for my magic weapon needs. Gonna take advantage of the Magitilary Industrial Complex and get the most bleeding edge Magic Swords available.
I'm now imagining the D&D equivalent of the Dubai police where they've got all the snazzy magic items
Imagining 1 cp representing $1 instead of $0.01 is peak late stage capitalism. I wonder how 20+ year old campaigns have addressed inflation.
That's not what what late stage capitalism is and you definitely couldn't actually buy anything for a penny 20 years ago.
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It depends entirely on the world you're playing in. I give out magic items like this all the time. It helps players feel powerful and cool. But I also make sure the world is prepared for weapons this dangerous.
Do your DMs not put magic shops in their games? Everytime we are in a city we go shopping and always find the magic item seller even if we have to go crawling through the sewers. And are DM will ask if we are looking for a specific item. Something random. Or if we say I want to see the magic bow or swords. Rarity imo is all up to the DM.
Not shops that sell decent magic items. I think in all of my games by the time I was level 7 the most I ever had as a +1 weapon or two, and either had to undermine the lack of magic items with improvised guerilla weapons like by creating makeshift grenades using an oil flasks, ball bearings, and fuses, or by outright asking for items the DM wouldn't know about. I don't think *any* of my dungeon masters over the last 7 years have been very rewarding at all.
That sounds so sad. My DM gives use one major magic item per dungeon. Or at least we find at least one. There are dozens of rooms we don't even enter. And as I said. Some kind of magic vendor in large major cities we go to. Hell last session my wizard was shopping for a sword (because I am multiclassing into a fighter as part of the story) and I just asked hey does this shop happen to have any magic swords. He immediately said oh yes we do but we don't know what they do so buy at your own risk. So my character bought it. I still don't know what it does yet as that was the last thing in our session but will be excited to see what it does. I would talk to your DM and your group and see waht they think about adding more items. I think adding magic items makes this more wild and fun. Maybe part of the campaign can be hunting down the last known location of a certain item/items the group wants.
It really is, even if I can make up with it with my smarts on occasion it's really a big issue when my party's Druid is consistently doing several tens more damage more than me despite me being the class BUILT around doing damage and attacking things. Even our Ranger is able to dual-wield pistols but the most I have so far is weapons that aren't really working out well.
Oh yeah that sucks. Next session have your character say, my weapons suck anyone want to magic item hunting. Or straight up ask your Dm if that path is an option. I wouldn't want to ambush the DM with something they don't have planned. Good luck.
>Do your DMs not put magic shops in their games? Often, no they do not. The "buying a magic item" downtime activity indicates that magic item shops are not intended to be _a thing that exists_ in 5e. The downtime activity represents spending a week or more hunting down a private seller.
In my opinion unless your magic sword allows the martials more utility and control that's not going to help as much with the divide after the first few levels in. In my experience martials will generally out-damage the casters unless specific conditions are present ie a great value fireball opportunity. But their damage can't plane shift or polymorph or any number of the utility things casters can do that isn't damage
The game assumes you never get any magic items. That was a listed design choice by the original developers.
Yes and no. They balance encounters not assuming you'll get a boost from magic weapons as that would be too complicated. But magic items make up a large section of the DMG and many of their other published books. Every adventure they've released has included magic items. It's not like they thought they weren't a core part of the game. Not to mention at higher levels there are many monsters just fully immune to nonmagic weapons. I don't think they're assuming that when fighting those your fighter just sits out the fight.
There is a difference between the devs recognizing that magic items are popular with players, and including them, and designing the game to require them--which is to say, assuming player characters will have them.
There's also a difference between saying "the game assumes you never get any magic items", and the game balancing CR without them to avoid all the complications of trying to judge off different magic items and various powers they'd give. They are a core part of the game and the devs know that the vast majority of PCs will get magic items and have multiple of them by the time the character retires. But they don't want the game to fall apart if you don't have them for whatever reason or ever require having a specific magic item. But the devs know that it's a core part of the game that magic items exist and characters will get them and use them, and they spent a good amount of the core rules giving magic items to choose from.
I disagree.
And it was a stupid design choice that players shouldn't hesitate to reject, or at least it was stupid in conjunction with the other design choices they made regarding the balance between martials and casters.
If this were true then "treat x as magic weapons" not only wouldn't be a core feature of two PHB classes, they wouldn't be put in at the exact same level. Additionally magic weapons wouldn't be included in the base ruleset, nor would they be integrated into the beginner adventures. The only way you can come to the conclusion that the game assumes you never get any magic items is if you've never read the core rulebooks or played any adventure written by the designers. Aka you'd have to pull the idea out of your ass.
"Treat [X] as magic weapons" features actually support the idea that you're not really expected to get magic weapons otherwise. If those features weren't present, then those classes *would* be required to obtain magic items in order to keep up with higher level play. *With* those features, those classes can keep on keepin' on with mundane equipment.
I don't think that's true. The features show up for things like when a monk is punching. You get them so that you can continue to use your unarmed strikes but that's not a problem for you to deal with resistances. But you're getting them on the attacks that you couldn't use a magic weapon for. It feels like less of a feature and more like a realization that without that their unarmed strikes wouldn't be very viable.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/how-was-5e-balanced-in-regards-to-magic-items/
Y=5 doesn't change X=3. As ive already addressed. And as your quote literally states, its designed so you can succeed without magic items only so long as a large chunk of the monster manual is not used. Also, twitter interactions are homebrew, please stop thinking they're actual rulings. If they were rulings they wouldve been put in an officially released update to the book.
>its designed so you can succeed without magic items only so long as a large chunk of the monster manual is not used Where did it say this >Also, twitter interactions are homebrew, please stop thinking they're actual rulings. Its not a ruling its a question and answer about the design intent of the game
No, the only way you can come to this conclusion is to read what the devs of the game have said in interviews, where they say their goal for the combat design was that players would never need magic items to be effective.
“You won’t need magic items to be effective” is not the same thing as “the game assumes you never get any magic items.”
Yes, they are the same thing. If the game assumed you got magic items, it would not work properly if you didn't get magic items. The systems work just fine with no magic items.
I’ll chalk this up as a language barrier. There’s some nuance in the grammar you’re not grasping.
Not replying to the other person because they are seemingly taking this point extremely personally, but I don't even think it's a grammar issue. You are being too kind. The statements have markedly different meanings. One is talking about minimum requirements, the other is talking about the expectations the game is balanced around. It's entirely plausible to balance difficulty around a party having a certain threshold of magical items, while at the same time ensuring that the difficulty is not so high that it *can't be completed without magical items*. I see a lot of people banging their heads against this logic, but they won't be able to explain when this individual is intentionally avoiding seeing reason.
Oh, there’s no kindness. I was pointing out that there’s no way someone could be this deliberately obtuse unless he didn’t have a full grasp of the English language. I got a “I know you are but what am I?” response that showed it’s more likely he’s just a child who’s doubling down when shown he’s wrong.
No, there is nuance in the grammar YOU are not grasping.
Untold numbers of creatures are resistant or immune to non-magical damage. Designers can say whatever they want on a podcast, but their words do not jive with the reality of what is going on in the game.
If they failed to accomplish their goal, that doesn't mean they were lying about their goal.
I agree. It is a matter of poor design rather than deception. https://99percentinvisible.org/article/norman-doors-dont-know-whether-push-pull-blame-design/
The non-magical resistance thing is actually because magic weapons aren't assumed to be a thing. If they were, those resists/immunities wouldn't exist in the first place and would be replaced with more interesting damage type resistances or adding a ton of extra HP to the creature.
I am unclear as to what you’re trying to say here. Do you mean “magic weapons aren’t assumed to be a thing” in regard to PCs owning them? Or existing at all? Why would the designers include a resistance that can be bypassed with an item that is in the book and there are literally dozens of pages of rules addressing how to provide your players access to them and detailing the abilities of those items? Maybe I’m crazy, but I bet we’re supposed to use the stuff they put in the books.
> I am unclear as to what you’re trying to say here. Do you mean “magic weapons aren’t assumed to be a thing” in regard to PCs owning them? In possession of them. > Why would the designers include a resistance that can be bypassed with an item that is in the book and there are literally dozens of pages of rules addressing how to provide your players access to them and detailing the abilities of those items? Maybe I’m crazy, but I bet we’re supposed to use the stuff they put in the books. If you're assumed to be using a magic weapon, the resistance means nothing. There are too many creatures with that resistance to come to the conclusion that magic weapons are assumed to be in use. Because, if the devs assumed you had a magic weapon, why bother including a resistance that is shut off entirely by it? It doesn't make any sense to design a creature with a resistance that you expect won't be relevant.
>If you're assumed to be using a magic weapon, the resistance means nothing. Not exactly, since summons almost never deal magical damage.
You’re not assumed to always have a magical weapon. That makes monsters with resistance to normal weapons scary and tough. But you are assumed to potentially have a magical weapon. That allows you to take down the scary and tough monsters you had a hard time with before you got your magical sword. Getting your ass kicked all over the place by a monster and then coming back later to wrecks its shit and save the day after you obtain a magical sword is a very common trope in fantasy fiction and games.
That's fine before level 5, but I'm also talking later in the campaign. The amount of monsters with nonmagical resists or immunities doesn't make any sense if the designers assumed you'd have a magic weapon when fighting them. Those resists come at the cost of monster health and other defensive abilities.
It completely makes sense. It’s a gatekeeping mechanism to preserve the feeling of heroic fantasy. Why does the town need heroes to save them from the Monster that dwells beyond the hill over yonder when they’ve got a militia? Because only a magic blade can pierce its demonic hide. Oh, no. The Monster has disarmed you, and your magic sword has fallen into the Pit of Despair. Better knock over that beam holding the cave ceiling up and hope the Monster is slowed down long enough for you to get out of this alive. These examples are not exceptions to the rules. It’s how the game is meant to be played.
Media literacy is truly dead. The game is designed under the assumption you will have magic items. In fact level 1 classes start with magic items. What the devs said about not needing them is literally just that. You don't need magic items, but you are expected to have them. Aside from being in the classes, in the suggestions in the dmg, it's also in the backgrounds for characters. And if we look at item tables you'll discover that ogre gauntlets are easier to acquire than plate armor. You'd have to be an absolute buffoon to look at a full section of two of the core rulebooks being magic items, and how monsters in the third core rulebook directly interact with magic weapons and come to the backwards conclusion that it's expected that you don't have them. I cannot stress how the education system failed you if you see a clear pattern like 1+2=x and come to the conclusion that x=12
>In fact level 1 classes start with magic items. Eh? No class gets magic items at level 1. Unless you think Magical Tinkering counts as "a magic item", but I think you'll have a hard time finding many people agreeing with you on that.
Dude you’re right, but holy crap you are wayyy too invested in this. You don’t need to attack the guy. It’s not that deep.
"Media literacy" ffs. Someone who designed the game tells you to your face that they want the game to be playable without magic items, and you think you know better than them.
You're only hearing what you want to hear. It can be frustrating to others.
You are correct, and these people just aren't as informed as they believe they are.
In my opinion yes, and in next edition they SHOULD be even more so with the design intention of WoTC for warriors to flip around multiple weapons
Frost Brands and Flame Tongues are not interchangeable. FTs do 2d6 while FBs do 1d6 but also give the wielder fire resistance.
They functionally are. FTs do 2d6 for the use of a Bonus Action in combat, whereas Frost Brands have their damage inherently.
They do different amounts of damage, are activated differently, and one bestows resistance. How is that functionally interchangeable?
This kind of misses the point, because dealing lots of single target damage is the one thing that martials are good at. I’m all in favour of DMs using magic items to minimise the disparity, but just giving them all flame tongues isn’t the way to do it, and of course this is only a DM action to paper over the cracks. The disparity is baked into the game and we really need an official overhaul to solve that, though One DnD looks to fall short in that regard.
Depends on the DM and the setting. In my homebrew world, magical items can be crafted by those who know how. Very few people know how and crafting them is expensive. On top of that, secret rituals are employed to empower the items. Every magic item is empowered by a set of runes engraved on the item, but the runes are invisible to the naked eye. Those who know how to craft them may take 1 or 2 apprentices to teach them so the art isn't lost, but won't teach anyone else and will take their secrets to the grave. Some kings have tried to torture the secrets out of someone who knows, but that always ends with a frustrated king and either a dead or escaped prisoner. Broken magical items can be repaired by reforging it, any damaged runes repaired, and the ritual of empowerment repeated. This is how I explain why they're so rare in my world and how someone may get their hands on one if they can afford it and know who to ask.
You say +2 weapons dont hold up to a Flame Tongue or Frostbrand...but a +2 to hit and damage, something a Flame Tongue doesn't have adds immense value to both hit and damage. Especially if the creature is resistant to the bonus damage
If you have 65% chance to hit the target's AC normally and have +5 Str, a Flame Tongue Greatsword deals 13.05 damage on average (19\*0.65+14\*0.05), a Frost Brand Greatsword deals 10.6 damage on average (15.5\*0.65+10.5\*0.05), and a +2 Greatsword deals 10.85 damage on average (14\*0.75+7\*0.05).
I’m going to come right out and admit that my DM gave me a fire tongue longsword at level 4 and my character never even took it out of the sheath before giving it to another PC because she just doesn’t use bladed weapons. She’s built to exploit bludgeoning weapons and two handed weapons, and started the game with a +1 sundering maul. She’s got a base damage of right now at level 5 of 2d6+6. I’m taking Gift of the Chromatic Dragon at level 6 and if I took GWM at level 8, then like OP said, that’s a potential base damage with elemental and power attacks of 2d6+1d4+16, which is a minimum of 19 damage with a floating elemental attack. It’s weaker than the static elemental attack of a flame tongue or frost brand, but not by much and it has the advantage of not being tied to a single elemental type or requiring attunement.
I'm running Curse of Strahd right now, so magic weapons and items are pretty damned rare. But most games I run, I'm pretty loose with magic weapons and stuff. I have fun with letting the players get overpowered and have their fun.
I think magic weapons should be less rare. Less rarity for the type of plusses we're getting. More 1d4 and +1 weapons. More 1d6 and some 1d8 and 1d10 magic weapons Give them +1 and 2 and 3 versions also. I know that there's a lot of homebrew, but if there were more official magic items with bonus magic damage at varying rarities people would be more willing to give them out and homebrew on par with their power.
For the first time ever, in a campaign I am currently in, I have received a Flame Tongue weapon. The party had saved the Duke’s daughter. While we all saved her life together by freeing her from her captors, only two of us actually followed up on this and made sure she found her way home to the Duke’s guard fort safely. Upon arriving and safely seeing her home, the two of us were knighted and gifted a flame tongue weapon of whatever type we wanted (short/long/greatsword, rapier, etc). Had everyone been there, I probably would have suggested the paladin or the kensei monk to take this weapon. However, it was just me, the bladesinging wizard, and my shadow sorcerer friend who are actually playing like good-aligned characters and took the time to complete the task while everyone goofed off. I kept the weapon for myself, and it has been a game changer. Previously, I had to rely on casting shadowblade to make my damage worth going into melee and using bladesong. Now I am viable in melee whenever I need to be! Additionally, if I really want to be spicy, I can dual wield the flame tongue shortsword and shadowblade. Or I can cast haste on myself for an extra swing with the flame tongue if the enemy is not resistant to fire. Analyzing some of what I had mapped out for my character, I thought I was going to be stuck concentrating on shadowblade for nearly every combat. But because of my DMs gift of weapon, I can concentrate on whatever I want and still get decent damage out of my melee attacks. Would highly suggest being open to these weapons if you have trust in your players and want to reward anyone!
Once casters get 5th level spells I treat my martials like they're the last trick or treaters and I'm trying to get rid of all my candy.
+2 and +3 weapons are more effective for the better builds than frost brand or flame tongue weapons. When you're eating a -5/+10, that +2 or +3 to hit is a big deal.
Depends on which ones you're referring to. Overall, no, not at all. It's not that outrageous for a person to make hiccup's flaming blade. However enchanted weapons rather than just ingenious invention, there in lies the issue. Not many enchanters exist.
The martial/caster divide is about legacy and the way editions were received. Martials get power increases one by one, such as their attacks, while the power levels of casters increases exponentially with spell levels. You can feel the game shutter whenever a wizard or sorcerer gets to 5th level and gets access to counterspell and fireball. You can feel it again when they get to 7th level and get polymorph. Again when they have access to wall of force, and again for every 2 levels. People called it "linear martials and quadratic wizards". In earlier editions, martials leveled up faster, so they would get powerful first. Meanwhile, wizards started their adventuring lives very weak. You rolled your HP at first level, so you could start with 1 or 2 hp, one spell "slot" and no cantrips. But then, at later levels, you would be able to shape reality, and that was the exchange for such a lowly start. Keep in mind that if you died back then, you'd need to start at 1st level again, so it was actually really hard to have a high level magic user. They kinda solved it for 4e, but people didn't like it. Everyone had the same amount of at will powers, per-day powers and per-encounter powers, but people found that it made every class feel samey. So for 5e they kinda reversed to the way it worked before. As for magic items, the big bubble to pop is resistances and immunities, and any magic weapon will pop it, so it's ok give them the powerful items early. It may become an issue at higher levels for longer games, If you want a steady flow of magic items. You may find yourself out of options at later levels when you gave out a flametongue at 4th level, and now your players will not care about the +1 or +2 weapon they find. You lose some of the sense of progress and the yearn for looking for cooler magic items if you give the coolest first. I had this problem with my first game as a DM. I had a kind of videogamey sense for magic items, so when my players already had plate mail, I thought that giving out any magic armor that didn't increase AC was pointless, so they only found magical plate mails, nothing else. This thinking applied to weapons and everything else. It came to a point around tier 3 and 4 where, if I wanted them to find "better" loot, I had to shoot myself in the foot by giving crazy powerful items, and even homebrewing them. To sum up, IMO, I think the class themselves must narrow the gap between casters and martials, unless the game expects as to give more magic items, which it doesn't. Also, I try to make every +1 and +2 weapons a bit more special, tying some nice lore and adding cool but not so strong effects. Maybe the simple +1 shortsword is "Bolt", a elven made sword blessed by Rillifane Rallathil, made in the style of the great elven smiths of Illefar, and it was last wielded by Lierin Araberos to defeat the fire giant king. You can decide to deal ligthning or thunder damage instead of slashing with it. Also, you can cast druidcraft with this sword, and you have advantage on initiative on thunderstorms.
On one hand, if you need a magic item to complete your build, you have a bad build. On the other hand, no matter how strong a fighter or barbarian are, unless their subclass allows them access to some alternative damage type a level 20 battlemaster fighter or Totem Warrior barbarian armed with the best but mundane equipment will never beat a werewolf in a 1v1. Even with useful subclasses, you're doing subpar damage against many types of high level threats and even some mid level threats if you never have any magic items. Whereas casters and even half casters have far more exponential growth. Magic items closes the gap but _only_ if the magic casters don't also get any magic items to make a strong class stronger.