There's a strange double meta going on in my games. Giga tanky heroes that spew damage, run at your lineup and deathball (dk, timber, lifestealer, centaur, lesh, bloodseeker etc.) And their opposite heroes that can hold highground and kill enemies while they run up with oppressive long range damage (drow, sniper, kotl, hoodwink etc.). Pretty much a coin flip. If the tanky heroes get an advantage and the highground heroes can't kill them fast enough the tanky squad wins by just being unkillable. If the highground heroes can stall out long enough and get enough kills to stop the rax losses they win eventually when they can two shot 6k hp tanks. Any half assing of either strat feels like an instant loss. Pretty much every game feels like this right now.

Yeah I feel like the game has been "never throw a single fight" which easily becomes "don't go high ground". I think the gold based on comeback mechanics is just a little bit too much while the exp has to be adjusted. The exp bar swings are a bit much.

I think a ton of people just royally suck at knowing how long it takes to get an objective combined with paying attention to death timers. Can't count the amount of games where my team wins a fight, pushes and gets a rax, entire enemy team is up in 15 seconds and my team decides to try for second rax, despite me asking them to just reset. Inevitably, people overstay their welcome, and enemy gets rubber-band gold because my team thinks they can take a t3+raxes and get back safely in 15 seconds. Happens so often it's not even funny. Unless you can for sure win a second fight, it's a good rule of thumb to start getting the fuck out 5-10 seconds BEFORE the enemies respawn.

THIS. Huge problem across a variety of ranks, but it’s more disappointing to see at higher skill levels. Always some overconfident core who lingers to clear a creep wave in their base after rax are gone. Enemy respawns, tps to the front of the base, chases him down and murders him. Cherry on top: no buyback cause they just spent their networth advantage from clearing all those buildings.

New here what is rax?

rax is a common abbreviation for “barracks”, which are the buildings that “spawn” melee and ranged creeps. destroying an enemy’s “rax” will cause your corresponding creep type in that specific lane to spawn as more powerful versions of themselves. also, welcome to dota! :)

It would be kinda cool if you could upgrade the rax or towers manually with some new resource. Difficult to add successfully but would be cool and more of the flavor of WC3

I think their mentality is we strong now we keep going. Their fear is we go home reset gives the opponent a chance to recover farm and be more prepared for next fight. And we gotta break high ground again and next time they will be stronger and one thrown high ground attempt could mean game thrown.

Likely you're gonna be able to get 4 random animals to group up max twice per game until one bad fight makes a player afk farm for 30 minutes. Better give snowballing a try.

> I think a ton of people just royally suck at knowing how long it takes to get an objective combined with paying attention to death timers Had a game yesterday that came down to this. We had the annoying long-ranged DPS lineup, they had the tanky run at you team. We held out until minute 55 or some shit, got 5 kills, pushed mid, I pinged death timers to leave and started walking away because it was 15 seconds left and we had only got mid t3 and rax Nobody left. Everyone else on my team died just hitting tier 4s. The worst part was when nobody used buyback until the bristleback was standing in front of our fountain, so there was a million quill sprays going on and our cores instantly died again. It's so frustrating.

That's always been the case though, low level pubs have always been terrible at pushing hg. But now it feels like so many matches at ESL were teams that were stomping, then lost because they got wiped a couple times going hg with aegis.

the exp is the problem

I think it's more like a mix of too much free xp (especially from kills) spell too strong (way too many hero solo slaughter waves, as long as they are 9+ way too much mana / mana cost too low

I have been screaming that comeback gold and xp is too much for the last 4 years.

same, but it's more like at least 6 years. (and 2018 was the worst in gold, but currently we probably have the worst one in xp) in 2018 i literally made an experiment on a smurf, to abuse the gold formula while playing p5. I was shit support (tbf, outside of my solid laning i was completly useless), yet i skyrocketed in mmr, easily outranking my main (7500, when 7k was still something xD). It was such a dumb strat: spent all my gold in sentry instead of item (didn't even need to place them correctly). by being much poorer than the other p5, i was giving the comeback formula to my team none stop. and when your mid is having 2k more gold than usual, he just solo win the game.

The games still suffering from 7.33 new frontiers update it's not fixed. Gold XP is one thing that's still whack

I feel like that too. You either win being "beyond godlike" or lose because you commited one mistake that costed the entire game.

I love when the enemy LS with 2/6 is suddenly 4 levels above our carry who is 8/1 because of this garbage comeback mechanics. It throws all early game out of the window since you comeback with 1-2 fights and now even have the advantage. Horrible design and makes so many games pure frustration and feel robbed.

Honestly strengthy/beefy offlaners like DK, Timber, Primal, Cent, Brew, Axe, etc. seem to just be running over things. They are nightmarish in lane having like 10-20 damage over the Pos 1 so last hitting against them is virtually impossible. Then the moment they hit 6 its over, you just get 2v1d by some cracked offlaner who can freely tank tower shots like its nothing while murdering you and your support. You can't poke them out of lane, 1 or 2 bracers, phase, vanguard, whatever it takes, they just don't die. Eternal shroud seems giga-op as well, if your team is more magic damage focused you have just given the offlaner infinite mana and they are impossible to kill as well. The highground hold does feel impossible to break as well, especially against Drow, Kotl, WW, AA, honestly a lot of the cast. There is a huge quantity of endlessly spammable abilities that annihilate creep waves to hold highground indefinitely, and at night with no vision onto the highground it's just impossible. You are going to get CC'd first simply by the vision difference, which makes BKB kinda worthless for pushing highground. Aegis gets popped immediately from the burst, team gets pushed away and you end up resing in the middle of the enemy team just to die again immediately. It's at the point now where I'm telling myself every game "don't go highground, never go highground", and every single time I don't listen to myself and go highground I regret it. We throw 20-30k networth lead and end up losing by getting outscaled. It's absolutely fucking impossible to go highground.

STR heroes are way too op early, they get a bracer and become unkillable and you need to wait 30min to outscale them as agility carry.

Minor nitpick: since when is bloodseeker considered giga tanky?

He has a pretty solid chunk of armor and has a lot of hp and has a passive that heals him every last hit 

I mean yeah he’s relatively durable but to put him anywhere near the same level as timber, dk, cent is just silly

Since new aghs Not "giga" though, just tanky enough

Almost like the game is called defense of the ancients not all out arena

idk just sounds like ppl figured out how the game is supposed to work and are complaining that the game works

Yeah the dude above me thinks that supports roamers and what not aren't what enables comps to work.

Ah you're one of the people i have to tell in my games "i know its called defense of the ancients but you actually have to play the game not just afk till gg."

I see a lot of people blaming comeback gold for this, but I feel like a big part of it is how safe farming has been ever since the map got bigger. It's impossible to ward up or cover all four jungles now, so no matter what if you're up against a hypercarry you're always on the clock. The jungle is just too large now to starve out a carry, at least it is in Archon/Legend where we're not super coordinated.

I stopped playing turbo because this was so apparent. You deal with comps like pudge, cent, primal, kunkka, OD and they just run at you. It gets out of hand way too quickly and the heroes are so naturally tanky they can almost always come back. Alternatively, Sniper, Drow, and other HG heroes STILL stall the game at HG because they can safely shit damage if the othe team doesn't commit ina. Somewhat coordinated way.

Believe it or not this is magnified in Turbo Games. Perfectly encapsulated.

Well said. I would like to add that a lot of the time the enemy team is just that tanky that there's no overcoming that. Some lineups just simply can't deal enough damage to take down 3 farmed STR cores even if they go full glass cannon.

I appreciate the fact it's difficult to end the game in DOTA, but right now with forts it's just annoying You wait 10 mins for a good fight and finally get it, then when you go to push racks you get fortified 2x in a row and your push dies... Then the team respawns and you gotta wait another 10 minutes for a good fight lol

i feel like glyph should not refresh after t2 towers

Should refresh after losing either melee or ranged racks not the t3 imo

Triple glyph has got to fucking go. That is pretty much my only complaint about the game right now. This solution is the best one. You should be punished for losing a fight near your base, not allowed to completely halt the enemies push without a single team member alive.

Yea rat and push got nerfed to hard

Fuck rat dota, what I hate about current glyph is that it's impossible to take a side after a successful teamfight because of glyph refresh and multi shot towers which annihilate your creepwaves and give time to respawn

Yeah this is it, you should be rewarded for teamwipe so if you change it to glyph after taking racks its a good compromise

I don't understand why made this change which makes the game worse for everyone instead of simply nerfing ratting heroes

It's hard to make pushing easier without buffing and encouraging rat play styles.

If you buff push and nerf rat you just make the deathball win.

Considering that there's nothing objectively bad about rat dota, I'd take it.

I'd much prefer nerfing HG defense without buffing rat Dota. Ratting should be a major risk, not the most viable strat

I don't think that would work. Say you make glyph reset after a ranged barracks falls. What players will do is get t3, melee barracks, get another t3, another melee barracks and then get a ranged barracks if they have time. If you make glyph reset after melee barracks fall it is a similar story. Get t3, get ranged barracks, get another t3, ranged barracks and then a melee barracks. I think the only real solution is this: glyph doesn't reset but heroes aren't so stupidly powerful they can end the game out of one successful push.

Glyph should never refresh in my opinion. I liked the game a lot more before glyph. And yah rats were annoying but it was a part of the team comp.

Rats weren't the problem. The problem was Deathballing and ending the game in 20 minues. Glyphs was added to nerf deathball strats after TI4 and it was the correct solution. The problem with pushing highground right now is not the glyphs. I think the biggest problem is the strength of Mega and Super creeps. They're just WAAY too weak right now. Pushing high ground should be risky. But there should be a potential upside to pushing highground and sacrificing a teamfight for a set of racks. Right now you never want to go highground because it's too risky and the potential reward isn't worth it. Both super and mega creeps should be buffed by like 50% in health and damage. Mega creeps should have like 50% more movement speed too.

I think it was Pyrion Flax who suggested it, but he said that mega/super creep should mean there is at least one gigachad unit a wave that passes by all other creep and just beelines to hitting buildings in your base, so that you almost always have to have someone defending. It's a neat solution.

Roshon banner buffs them quite a bit. I don't know what the % is for it but I think it does exactly what you are wanting here.

Just return the fucking glyph refresh to T1 only. Why does it even reset beyond that I dont understand.

Id rather not get steamrolled or steamroll every game. 

And are you not steam rolled now every other game? Does it feel good to win because the enemy threw because they got bored? What's the point of dragging stomps for 10 minutes extra or 30 which is what is happening now, we live in the Team Nigma universe now or what , at higher ranks at least people go afk and let push, in lower ranks people will waste time as much as possible

Okay I get it, it feels bad to get streamrolled or streamroll the enemy, it makes for a cheap game but as it stands its just outright stagnation. There is no "meaning" behind getting a lead. It doesnt really do anything. You are exchanging one end of the spectrum for the other end when the sweetspot is somwhere in the middle.

I think tier 2s should get a glyph but then t3 towers shouldn’t, maybe, and as a comment said earlier it would probably be better to get the glyph after a set of racks is gone

This could be alleviated with changing death cost.

I feel like that problem is not fully related? Surely there are better, more organic solutions to slowing down games. Probably a hot take over here but I'd like to see GPM/XPM nerfs after years of power creep.

Yeah they either need to nerf glyph significantly or make buybacks cost more

Because once upon a time (not that long ago) the death ball meta was real and everyone hated it. Adding additional forts slowed down the death ball and nerfed that strat.

I feel like people are too reluctant to use glyph offensively when they are pushing.

Thats not the problem and offensively used glyph is less effective than defensively used one. The effect on creeps expires before Towers. Even if they expired the same time it still wouldnt really achieve anything if we are being honest. They will just force you to use it before creeps come under tower to deny any vision advantage and even if creep wave did connected with tower they will just stay in fog and nuke it as soon as the effect ends. Towers are way too tanky for you to deal any meaningful damage under such a short amount of time. Root of the issue is high ground if we are being honest.

I suggested this several times, got told git gud and downvoted, still not got gud

Remove glyph, increase tower HP by 10% and reduce tp duration when tping to towers attacked in the last 5 seconds. Makes defending worth reacting and fun. Glyth is a snooze fest.

I like the glyph refresh because I like my games to have a lot of back and forth. Winning too easy or losing too easy by 20mins just isnt fun for me

That’s what turbo is for

I need to see my number go up or down though, how else will I determine my self-worth?

They could change glyph to last a few seconds more, but shoot a single target at a faster rate of fire, As such it would slow the push, but enable you to save the wave if someone is willing to tank it.

that will bring zoo meta back... idk if that's a good thing or a bad thing

Would love to see an experimental patch with Glyph completely removed

Nah, I enjoy wiping the enemy team, putting them all on a 50 second timer, with all tier 3's exposed, to only get 1 set of rax, then go back, extending a won game by 15 minutes. Seriously... Going HG is just 15 seconds of waiting for fortifications to go away, Going through a T2 is even worse... Fucking end my suffering, it's not a fun mechanic to have games arbitrarily last significantly longer than they need to, simply because of fortifications resetting every damn second.

certainly had aids games that just get stalled by fortify spam and hero respawns that eventually evolve into 70+ min cancer of fortify spam and trading buybacks. been playing lots of DK jakiro viper anything that can siege shit.

Not to mention that the fortifications completely wipe your creep wave making you wait another 30 seconds for backdoor to go away.

Maybe the memehammer meta was the key all along

Yeah, even now, if I see that the enemy heroes will be a pain to go high ground against, I build Memehammer or have any supports with cast range item/neutrals build it. It eventually forces a fight.

What I like about the memehammer is sometimes it forces a glyph from enemy lol

Defense of the highground.

It's a bad sign when the 60 minute Tier 5 items no longer pose a threat to high ground and ending the game.

A huge chunk of the reason is because both teams get the power spike at the same time. And when you give each team ~50k NW of items, that actually reduces any advantage that the winning team had before. That's why games that go to 60+ mins feel like a 50/50, no matter how bad it was before. --- I still think the best solution to T5 neutrals is to tie T5 tokens to Roshan death 4+. Have Roshan dropping it be the only way to get them. That way, if the game stalls out, the winning team gets a permanent significant advantage by controlling Rosh. And if the losing team wants to not be permanently weaker, they need to contest Rosh - leading to games that end one way or another.

HG is doable if you have a hero that can damage towers from a fair distance. Sniper shrapnel + attack or pugna for example. But most heroes have to actually walk HG to get vision on the tower and that is the rough part.

That's one reason why DK is so strong right now, manta + dragon form is a super safe way to push HG.

Dont forget mage slayer and he become a free tanky fucker

This is exactly why me and my friends all have Sniper on our banlists. The hero is boring as fuck but if you don't pick or ban it, you have to play against it and it changes the entire game too much.

Perhaps its because you and your team are not itemizing to end the game? Something obvious in pubs vs officials is lotus orb. Instead you have 4 euls and wonder why your carry dont want to hit hg )

I never see a role itemizing wrong more than carry players

This is unfair dude, aren't most of your games 40 minutes plus too, I mean surely you've climbed out of 8k after you got the overplus cheaters banned, and to top it off you have the privilege of people going afk if it's a big stomp which most players don't since they play in like Legend 2 and want to try till end for a lost cause. Highground is impossible to push into, meta is around either deathballing and making people want to quit dota with 3 strength heroes or around forcing hg throws and if you want to play grief picks ( anything other than meta) you will eventually lose unless someone throws and throws happen because people get bored. You get maybe get 2 towers with first 2 roshans, games that should end at 20minutes end at 35

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You know it’s bad when deer stops trolling

theres literally 3 glyphs and people in ancient still press fortify on the second T2- to which we get barracksed off

People in divine do it too if it helps lol.

There has to be a way to provide vision to enemy base. Common ward spots to see high ground is not effective, they will get dewarded instantly. Vision has to be awarded to the attacking team. Every single element of the game apart from access to jungle camps benefits the defender team more than attackers. And not being able to jungle doesnt even sting that much because every single lane is pushing towards you anyway. Also delete the fucking fortification resets. It is such an artificial mechanic.

Extend the highground leading into the base so the attacking team doesn't have to walk highground directly into tower range. Even a short 100-200 range buffer between the start of highground and the tower range would help offset the insane defender's advantage we have right now.

This is an interesting idea, but maybe there's a way to unlock it via a map objective.

That's actually a pretty interesting idea.

thats really a interesting idea! But iam not sure about it. I think the defender should have a advantage, iam not sure if this takes away too much. Maybe give the armor and hp regen aura more range for the t3 then

Rework Roshan's banner into a massive, temporary, cone-shaped ward. Observer and sentry aimed right at their high ground.

I've noticed the same thing. I pretty much only play kotl, and I normally go 3rd item meteor hammer. With ult cast range I can rat out towers really easily. Just give me 2-3 minutes and I can take down a t3. Sound ridiculous, but it's literally the only way I have found to consistently break the highground. We can be up 20k gold, and have aegis and it still doesn't work

Even a stomp game would usually go 40 mins

The only things I would change related to a highground push are buyback cost and comback gold/xp. Buyback has never been easier to farm with so much gold available in the game, and these stupid comeback mechanics mean that 1 bad fight= enemy team is back on line even if they spend a buyback. And yeah, artificially extending game time with glyph reset absolutely sucks, as others have stated. This is just a result of powercreep where if this reset didn't exist, towers and barracks would fall like nothing because heroes just have so much net worth.

Maybe make it lowground instead of high ground 🤔🤫

From my experience, being at Divine bracket currently but reaching even top 500 in my prime, i am buffled by how bad Divine players are and how they can not understand something that is common sense to me, and that is when a high ground push is destined to fail, and that it is the wrong play to do it then. My guess is that your games people are forcing the issue, it is just bad dota nothing else really.

I feel like some of the comments I see here is a skill issue.  There are items that help you take a successful hg like AC, Lotus, Lotuses and as for vision; maybe play heroes that actually provide good vision (zeus, clock, veno, sd, venge etc) instead of praying for your team to do everything for you?  Learn how to set up for vision for important pickoffs and ganks. Don’t just sit idle behind your team waiting to react. BE PROACTIVE.  Games can end by 28, 33 and even 40 mins. If your games are that stalled out.. both teams must be so low skill and passive. There was a time when rats, zoo and druid ran over dota and games ended faster than a trash carry could buy their bkb.  Do we want to go back to itemizing for early hg push meta again? Or complaining about fast games are? Or how one sided and boring pro games are again? 

You must wipe them before taking tier 3.

GOOD LUCK

or just kill whoever tries to farm outside then push but people are to lazy to chase they would rather try for a 50/50 push

I think a rework of the 2nd or 3rd Roshan onwards should give the aegis an additional aura that increases Armour/Regen/Magic Resist of nearby heroes. Flag needs a bit of a buff too, make it so allies can TP to it, also have it Regen it's hit counter if damaged. Bit of a bigger % buff to the units that pass it.

please just nerf the HG itslef. You shouldn't have to take 2-3 roshans in order to be able to win a game. Also making roshans even more important just makes pro games boring. It's always the center part of the games already, i don't want to imagine how they would play if roshan was even stronger

Wtf, no. There's already enough benefits to do multiple Rosh. Allowing the offensive side to brute force their way in is not the play, it should always be easier to defend than attacking, it's on the ones trying to break hg to be smart, not the other way around.

> it's on the ones trying to break hg to be smart The smart thing to do in history was to never assault a castle and basically just siege for months or years. But who plays a war game just to sit and do nothing but siege? .. we need fun more than just being smart.

...is it fun for the defenders to already know they've lost and to have to just sit around and wait while the attackers get an OP rosh and win the game with no counterplay?

Not saying his rosh buff ideas are good necessarily, but rosh is kind of a stall breaker. If your game stalled out, whoever has map control (or bigger balls) gets to do rosh and use the tools he gives you to break the stall, and the other team can try smoke ganking or forcing objectives to counter. If you do rosh and still are forced into a 5v5 staring contest afterwards, I don’t think that’s super healthy

I have the exact opposite complaint to whine about. My team can never take a good fight around our tier 3, especially when it's obvious that the enemy team is stronger and are about to push.

While I agree that there is too little room for error right now, what you describe is in the end still just a skill issue. It is still perfectly possible to snowball early leads to an early finish. It's just too tough for the average pub though.

Not even a “skill issue” it’s a “try coordinating with 4 randoms” issue, in solo queue at least.

Oh, we've wiped them outside t3? Let me teleport bot to go jungling.

Yea and then the game is extended by 10 mins and there's literally nothing you can do. Not very fun

True, in solo games all you can do is advocate for the correct play. But this superior decisionmaking will reflect in your winrate.

Yeah… I’m a bit confused by this post, not my experience at all. Very consistently in my stomps we clear t2s rs/torm/etc. Then push to get t3 fort and then break hg and end quick.

Mega creeps should mean that it's 80-90% win for you, instead it's still 50-50 often lol

Hero power creep over the years has made megacreeps not even a threat anymore. Pretty much every lineup can easily defend megas now. It used to be that outside of a few heroes that could clear megas reliably, if the enemy has megas you were in a 95% lost game situation.

I remember when you could get Megas and just watch the other team lose to them.

Exactly 💯

I guess on the flip side, if the outcome is too predictable once one side has mega creeps, why bother defending at that stage? I’d like to see something that rewards the team that has advanced enough to get mega creeps, whilst giving the defending team a realistic chance of coming back if they throw everything they have at making it work. 70/80% chance for the team with mega creeps maybe?

Even if there's only a 5% chance of winning most people will still keep playing as they've invested 45+ minutes at that point. There is always a chance the enemies messes up completely and throws. But really if the enemy team has megas that means your team has lost multiple team fights, multiple highground pushes, got outfarmed and there is nothing left to prove at that point, no need to drag the game out like the current meta.

i had a game like this yesterday good thing i was NP and my other fellow support player pick shadow shaman 60min game 2 cores dead no bb only pango alive so he delayed there push while we sneak in to finish a 50% throne with no glyph a quick GG ez after

Idk it doesn’t seem that bad to me in divine/low immortal, I think low ranks people are just impatient and buy bad items. Things like solar crest, greaves (this is a big one that I think goes under the radar, pros on mirana aren’t rushing greaves just because they don’t have anything better to build), lotus, force staff and occasionally pipe make it much easier to sustain and safely siege. Also if you have no initiator and the enemy team does sieging is shit but that’s a draft issue, not a patch issue.

Implement an item that gives 80% dmg reduction to lanecreeps when a hero stands right next to them, so highground is more forceable.

Especially when you push highground into magnus skewer and tusk walrus kick.

Doesn't help meteor hammer is weird af to build now and way too expensive for supports to get

It’s definitely harder than it used to be, this is why if the enemy has a better draft and chance of defending HG do this: 1. Try to make a pickoff. It’s easier to push 4v5. Put aggressive warding on their side of the map, smoke and go for a pickoff. Even if it’s a support, its still a valuable kill late game. 2. Never, ever, ever dive under T4. If the enemy buybacks, just retreat. 3. Build items for easier tower push - AC, Deso, etc. 4. Split push top/bottom forcing the enemy to defend both lanes, by pushing as 4 in one lane and let your strongest tower hitter (Luna, Clinkz, WK, etc) push the opposite lane 5. And last but not least, against lineups like Drow, Sniper and Arc Warden, always get Aegis first before going HG. This is what I can think of right now, hope it helps.

This is a decent advice for low-mid elo but in pro games even having aghs doesn't help that much, like u win 2-3 fights take rosh and still feel like taking HG is not optimal and feels random. And it's not like meta heroes are all good on HG Def more like most heroes nowadays good for HG Def and this makes game extremely slow to the point 20-30 min games become 40-60 min games and ppl don't like that.

the easiest way to push the high ground is to kill them outside their base. If they cant go out it means they cant farm faster. Force them to fight outside thats the best way to win the game.

Then you need to review your play. I'm not even super high mmr, but a little under 6k, and most games end with the team that's forced highground losing. If you're stuck highground, you are getting less farm than the enemy who has access to lane creeps AND the Jungle AND tormentors AND runes AND Roshan. If you cannot confidently force highground as 5 with aeigs... then you bleed the enemy out until they INNEVITABLY fuck up OR you're so much more farmed than them that it doesn't really matter. It is tough to take HG especially with buybacks and constant glyphs. Maybe buyback and glyph need a nerf. But still, the team with fewer resources should be losing more often than not if your team isn't just gung-ho diving under t4s just because you have an aegis.

> If you cannot confidently force highground as 5 with aeigs... then you bleed the enemy out until they INNEVITABLY fuck up OR you're so much more farmed than them that it doesn't really matter. While this is true it sucks; when you win the laning stage then get all t2 towers by 25 mins and now just want to win you have to ... wait outside their base for X time.

> If you cannot confidently force highground as 5 with aeigs... then you bleed the enemy out until they INNEVITABLY fuck up OR you're so much more farmed than them that it doesn't really matter. True, but is this how you want the game to be? Just stall until you become stronger?

funny, I'm on a 10 winstreak atm and lots of those games have been over before 40 mins but, it's mostly because noob enemies getting caught doing stupid shit like standing well within blink range letting us turn a 5v4 push with aegis into a 5v3 push with aegis, which despite HG advantage is not too hard this is the exception not the rule though, I agree wholeheartedly this shit needed fixing months ago, I genuinely believe there are almost no devs left who regularly play dota

> I genuinely believe there are almost no devs left who regularly play dota Your ass must be pretty large for you to pull this amount of shit out of it..

Im curious what bracket these 'HG' issues are in. I'm in divine/high ancient and my games are longest 40 mins and I don't remember the last time I've seen a true HG throw. It's all about early game for me in my games and good mid game rotations.

Ancient as well, my teams are throwing HG every single game

I'm in archon / legend and it happens very regularly

Its the beauty of dota. Glyph and highground fog

Most games you either need a pick off, or to poke at HG and force the enemy into a fight away from HG. Even with Aegis HG pushes are super hard.

Mmm my feeling usually is that my team has always the glyph on CD. Oh but the other team feel like they are using it every two minutes xD

Do we really need the glyph cooldown reset after killing towers? I would love to have it removed with no other changes. Maybe lower glyph cooldown a bit to compensate.

The game has become so long these days, that I exclusively play Turbo games now. Heck, I just can’t go back to regular games anymore.

And yet my team wastes the last glpyh on the single set of barracks

Rarely you can win in 30 mins. But to be fair those games are absolute stomp fests. But in those stomp fests high ground feels like a non issue. In a fair matchup I would 100% agree.

I see that too in my games. Isn't it insane how absolute stomps can last 30 whole minutes though?

Yeah I remember games ending like 40-60 to 10 kills lasting 15 to 20 min

Maybe if there was a way to stop high ground after a certain point or if you break a certain structure in the enemies base. You no longer are affected by enemy high ground for 3 min or something along those lines.

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Nerd

Pick DP or Sniper

Death timers are too short early, buyback cooldown is too short later game. By the time my team has its shit together again for a hg push the enemy ways has 2-3 buybacks.

I don't think the bb cd is the problem. I think the problem is that bb costs very little compared to how quickly heroes can farm gold in modern dota. You can farm item+ buyback between roshans.

Ya that's a good point cost could be also be adjusted.

I was pondering this at Birmingham and the most radical solution we had was to make the walls surrounding high ground destructible after taking all tier 2s. Or make high ground start slightly outside the walls next to the tier 3s.

Pugna/sniper/etc slow seige feels good against it. Just keep poking the towers down, the main issue is trying to convince your team to not get impatient and jump high ground while you're seiging. If the enemy leaves high ground to stop the slow seige thats when you fight. Meteor hammer is also a slept on item for this.

It is quite literally not impossible. Like, literally.

what mmr is this? so many of my games in 4k are \~30min with no lead change or even momentum shift

DOTH - Defense of the Highground

I like that high ground is really strong. What I don't like is that the ability to breach it is so draft dependent. There should be an item that helps, which used to be aegis but not so much anymore. I think buffing Roshan banner hard could work.

Me and my usual 3 stack literally won't take Rosh so we can bait the other team to leave there base for one time in 30 mins

Remember.: - you can farm all map!! even supports - get both outposts - get every bounty rune - get every rs of course - get vision to see them leaving the base EVENTUALLY you have enough gold/xp advantage to enter base, BUT you have the time to chill, THEY dont. With every second it should be harder for them to turtle.

Glyph is too low cost with too much power… And buybacks? Also too cheap to spam on.

Something I literally have to say every game, “you don’t go high ground ever in dota unless you have a man advantage.” You have to back up and wait for enemy to get confident enough to come out, separate, kill two of them and only then you go for high ground. I don’t even like attacking base with aegis if it’s 5v5.

Nibble at T3s with your illusions while controlling the map. Grind that way for 45 min until T3s fall and the enemy runs out of glyphs. Only then take the aegis and push high ground.

Yeah but who the fuck wants to sit and farm outside hg for 15 mins instead of just ending? It just sucks to play on both sides

7.20-7.26 they increased tower protection armor by 3 and the damage towers did was at it's peak. I think we need to look back to the tower protection buff along with the tower damage. The problem is to push hg you need to have two successful fights under tower. The enemy essentially has 15 additional armor and 200 damage attacks. It's too much for a team fight at the timings that these pushes happen. Solution; Increase the tower damage to creeps, have scaling armor tower protection by time, and possibly a debuff that falls off as a disincentive for rating on heros. Idfk but 15 armor is way too much at 20-25 minutes.

What can I say, skill issue

Tbh I think hg is just for like ultra skill play now which sucks. By the time you're taking t2s, your next item should be for hg. That means manta (for vision-not for dispell), linkens on supports, force staffs, shit Like that.

It's called strategy dawg. Ward their side, pull back across the river, wait, smoke kill. Now you can hg.

Thats the problem with all those streamline game designs we had in recent updates the games feel the same and it gets boring.

Not on my games. I've only got tier 5 items on 4 or 5 games this year. Most of my games end by 45 min mark.

Its just that low mmr players don't understand that going HG is the most difficult thing in the game and is basically half of your win, if that makes sense. And there is no need to rush and go hg, if the enemy is locked in their base.

I think there are a couple of macro things happening that feed into each other. First supports are so much richer now. if you dominate a game lets say 70-30%, in the past at 30 minutes the enemy support had a glimmer or a force and not much else. Now its that + Aghanims. Second, since i would guess 7.28 there has been a trend to focus on items that kill heroes and creeps but do little to buildings. Gleipnir, Khanda, Revenants Broach, Parasma and some more do very little for offensive highground while Items like Necrobook, Wrathpact, Dominator, Meteor Hammer or Desolator are either removed or very, very niche Items. And lastly imo, supercreeps dont matter. If you trade a teamwipe for one lane of rax its almost never worth it because of comeback gold and, more imporantly i would guess 80% of the heroes have a wave push mechanic build in now.

the never-ending glyph refresh is annoying but comeback isn't that strong. Just remove one layer of the glyph refresh.

Every single game feels like 25-30 minutes is added just trying to push HG. Even games that are a stomp. I played a game yesterday that was 45-15, it was 25 minutes and we were pushing high ground. Turned into a 30 minute slow siege, still ended up winning but why all the added time!

Had a three games in a row last night that were like this, we were double and sometimes triple their kills with all t2s down and full map control. In all 3 games the other team just camped base, after a few failed pushes even with aegis and trying to bait them out and be careful, they got kills and got a stupid amount of rubberband gold and XP, then turtled until 60+mins, and then after yet another failed push they countered and ended after a team wipe. Dumb and boring AF. They need to force teams to leave base to hold something else on the map or get penalized. That and/or drastically retune comeback gold/xp.

"Defense of the Ancients"

New Consumable: Shovel Cost: 2000 gold, unlimited purchases starting min 30 Effect: Permanently raises or lowers terrain by one unit in a 500 AOE around the hero. Does not affect buildings, trees spawn, or neutral creeps spawn. Does not block pathing regardless of how high or low an area gets. Only affects terrain of the same level the hero is currently standing on (can not be used on ramps). Notes: River is at 0 units high. Normal lane is at 1 units high. Tri-jungle and tier 3/4 are at 2 units high. Fountain is at 3 units high. Shovel can NOT lower terrain below 0 or raise terrain above 3. With 4000 gold, you can have a permanent counter-highground just outside their tier 3S

Try hitting the objectives instead of the racks.

My games are: 1-Enemy takes T2 2-Enemy takes Roshan 3-Enemy closes in on the base 4-2 o 3 of my team chases outise alone baited die 5-Loose

Agreed. High ground has been impossible to seige most games. Doesn't matter if we have a lead, and got all their t2s early. The enemy just knows that hg they can hold. Time n time again I've lost games even with an amazing start to hg

Some things that could help while not changing the core of hg imo If you capture enemy outpost after t2 your team gets flying vision for 90-120 seconds (this buff can have a cd or you have to kill a tower first so you only have like 4 chances for it) Glyph changes, either the multi shot only lasts the first 3 seconds or it only resets after t3/rax Copying from league (the horror i know but have you started to notice that we have been getting a lot of x hits passives for the rng passives) the void grubs/herald where the objective is near t2 so before you go high ground you take it to get increased damage on buildings An aura or consumable item that you can buy to buff creeps like wraith pact for creeps or a consumable like smoke where you can only have one every 10 minutes it can either be they gain stats or they gain a TA shield

Remove glyphs, make tower immune during teleport :)

Obi-Wan is very pround.

They should re-add shrines in the base :^ )

I feel like another reason for this is that players at lower ranks only know how to hard commit. A lot of hg fights I’ve won on the sieging side is when heroes have the right defensive items to go in but also quickly get out after baiting spells gradually draining resources in terms of enemy cooldowns until eventually you get to go up and hit the buildings for as long as it takes for the threatening spells to come off cd. I feel like hard committing up into the base just gives the defending team a much better fight in general.

this is an mmr issue/carry itemization issue. saying there is nothing you can do is not true. pick better pushing heroes. yes HG is too hard right now but this post is over the top

Herald here. I don't know what you're on about. Me and my mates (Heralds-Crusader) just buy Meteor Hammer if high ground is too hard. Usually by 40 mins 1-2 of us has this item. Literally impossible to defend against because of our rank. Just have big fight, have our carry do some dumb shit like always, and in the middle of big fight use hammer on tower. Repeat. Bkb if need to.

Agreed with most of the sentiment here. How about a change to glyph where it grants 50% bonus armour (or another amount, could be less) instead of invulnerability?

Skill issue, I see how it's hard in pro games because the co-ordinated defense is too strong. The higher you go before pro level the less that HG defense matters, players just keep extending lead and punishing. My average game last 3 months is 35 minutes.

I've found that it comes down to lack of fast push/ tower hitters. If you have a lineup that shreds towers it's a different story. Recently played a game where I had an offlane tiny, I was lifestealer, and we had a wisp. All it took was 1 pick off, then boom, overcharged core tiny + me took rax in seconds. Make sure you draft some sort of push so that you don't have to walk up to t3 without actually threatening significant tower damage

I just want valve to add healing well again to add more frustation hahaha

High ground advantage is too big, reduce the vision, reduce the armor of towers like go mad, this is insanely boring meta, people are throwing because they are bored man, at what point do you just wing it , after your 3rd 45 min game like what the fuck

start taking rosh at 20m so the enemy doesnt have enough to hold you.

Good death with Aegis: forced one to two big ultimates out instead of just dying to sustained damage. Teammates alive to back you up, saving their spells to save you until your second life. Bad death with Aegis: dying due to sustained damage, bad death position, you are the last one to die in the team fight leaving no one to save you, no ultimates forced. Judge the death for yourself.