Whats fun is she gains boot melee movement speed and damage, broom handle attack range, 33% damage manta illusions, and melee on hit effects (Basher, OoC, Battlefury), while also being a melee hero for Eye of Skadi and Heaven's Halberd, but still benefits from attack range increases and can still use Crackshot from Specialist's Array.
It can be tested in demo mode. Equipping broom by itself will give +50 atk range as expected. When you buy Dlance, the bonus atk range only goes up to +150. So essentially broom's bonus range stops working.
It will change it from 400 to 450. It won’t change it from 550 to 600. Broom works on its own, but stops working when dragon lance is added, at least that’s what I’m understanding here
You're very likely to be on a T2 item by the time you finish dragon lance unless you rush it without treads and wraith bands or get really fat in lane.
This is Dota1 Lore correct, because she throws herself as an attack in Dota1. Obviously it would count as melee.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuBLwIXqhy8
Yea that could be the inspiration behind this. Iirc some patches ago they started adding elements in dota 2 that is likely inspired by Dota 1 like how Anti Mage current Agh, and i believe at the time it was Blink Illu creation was a reference to "fake blink" mechanic of dota 1 and i remember mentioning Venge Throw Herself havent been implemented yet despite the fact that Venge was effectively returned to her super old version at the time(e.g. faster Magic Missile, but all her skills lose the bloated features)
Until now
probably icefrogs response to people thinking he's not balancing the game now, he's still balancing the game IMO. he just has the help of analytics from dota api. The rumor that he wasn't was just people angry the dota patches didn't change dota enough.
Could PA being technically visible but impossible to click with Blur on be a reference to the quirk of her model going invisible when Blur was skilled on the lowest graphic settibgs?
Idk about the lowest graphic setting because net cafe back then aren't that great anyway, but wc3 blur when skilled will make PA more and more translucent. "Newer" version at max level only make her translucent to the point you can't make out her model details but at the very least you can still see her general silhoutte (ffs this word is impossible to memorize) and recognizable by glancing alone.
Old-ish version though at max level her model is straight out invisible, only her shadow that every hero unit cast that are visible; back then our net cafe scene hasn't standardized HP bar always on setting so the only way to "see" her is by brighthening the screen and paying close attention to her distinct attack sfx.
The "fake blink" thing was from later-ish version, until then AM's blink animation and effect are directly lifted from wc3's version which is identical with Dota 2 effect.
Fake Blink was from wc3 and like existed since AT LEAST the version where Mirana and Sacred(Huskar) was the latest hero. IIRC its along the lines of Blink creates a pseudo illusion on place of arrival before the hero replaces the pseudo illusion which is why its possible to do fake out by blinking then canceling it before the pseudo illusion is out
IIRC Earthshaker and Enigma had similar mechanics where Black Hole and Echo Slam was done by creating a psuedo unit that channels/act as echo carrier or something
Encountered 2 games with pos 1 picking vs melee... statistically at 100% loss in rank 4k mmr. Feels like he is fun to fool around but falls short compared to other pos 1 heroes
The issue is when she dies, the illu only deals 25% of her base attack. So even if u build stats for the base dmg, it's not as impactful as last time when she's dealing 100%.
The buffed attack speed gives her a little more damage
Is there an argument to take the melee facet just so you can be a ranged support that fully benefits from an Orb purchase for lanin, as opposed to dealing more damage to cores with missile later in the game?
It's not as powerful as the right facet, but you see the difference after someone killed 300 creeps, but just having a pseudo-melee option invalidates the left facet. If it were a 1:1 ratio for damage to creeps, it might see usage (together with a phylactery or such), Venge could have good burst damage with spells.
But yeah, the right facet is way too good
It is surprisingly strong, more so if you consider a phylactery/Khanda with Venge's base attack scaling.
It's a VERY good facet, no question. Just that the other one is basically better due to the strengths melee build can work for her
I strongly disagree, I just bodied an entire game nearly by myself as a Venge 4. My missile was clearing their 3 BB and 1 Luna to the point I could solo both and walk away barely taking any damage.
There's a lot of benefits to "melee" Venge but if you're a support how much money can you really dump into your right click? Missile requires nothing of you and technically scales infinitely throughout the game.
Unless they literally have like 1K+ CS where the extra gold has less effect on their EHP, I don't see how this adds up. Sure your might be doing a few hundred extra damage, but the implication is that then they must have huge networth from all the farming. There's simply no way a venge 4 can magically solo a 6 slotted Luna because her 7s cd nuke is doing 250 more damage than before, unless it's like some gimpy magic Luna build with ult on CD.
They’re gonna farm regardless of your facet anyway. Also you don’t have to solo them, it’s just a lot of free damage which is always good compared to the questionable bonuses a support venge comes from being able to utilize melee modifiers.
Yeah. 1000 CS means 750 bonus magic damage.
If we go to 400 which is more realistic, that means every missile deals 300 extra magic damage which also gets reduced. That is basically one or two auto attacks from venge at that point. And with a way better BAT of 1.5, this is easily done.
Not a bad facet, but the other one is just strictly better since there is no drawback from switching to melee
Right, but the melee facet is clearly for core Venge and not support Venge, so this is never a consideration.
Lower BAT doesn't matter for support venge after the first few minutes of the game where trading matters (and it only helps her trading a little bit, it's not a game changer). Support Venge never buys any items or gets any neutrals that gain more benefit from being on a melee hero, so the facet does literally nothing for her.
So you'd never take it on 4 or 5 Venge, you'd always take Avenging Missile.
That being said, it's not a huge deal in most matches anyway. Accounting for base line 25% magic resist, your Magic Missile deals 112 more damage (382) than normal Magic Missile (270) which just gets worse for anyone with Mage Slayer/Pipe/Shroud/Glimmer. But it's better than nothing and Soul Strike would just do nothing for you.
> Support Venge never buys any items or gets any neutrals that gain more benefit from being on a melee hero, so the facet does literally nothing for her.
Orb of Venom seems pretty reasonable.
You should also notice that her BAT reduces in her melee form. That’s ez attack speed buff when you need it. (I picked that facet recently just to deal with enemy Undying)
I think there are way too much benefits from this facet compared to the other. The missile one is *fine*, nothing wrong with it except that the other makes you a better right clicker at all points in the game, gives you item and abilities benefits notably from boots, widens your itemization and all that with literally no drawback.
Also, the other one becomes not that good in shorter matches, particularly winning ones, so you're banking on the enemy winning early to mid game and going very late game BUT you could have a much more solid early with the second facet's benefits. So either you decide to prepare to lose half of your game with benefits for one spell (with a good uptime, damage and a shard, tbf) or you get a strong all rounder that makes everything easier
With support venge what benefit is there to take the melee facet? you can't be greedy enough to even take advantage of it? This new patch also seems to really favour snowballing and faster games so good teams will likely end it before you can fully scale as a 4 or a 5.
If the current meta favours faster games, there's even less reasons to pick the missile facet.
>You can't be greedy enough to take advantage of it?
Venge can hit like a truck pretty easily and pretty fast. Considering she doesn't usually buy attack speed, that still makes her harass 20% better, gives her free movement speed with Power Treads and Phase Boots if you want to go that route, allows her to get items way faster (considering wave is pretty good for farming) and allows for more items to try depending on the situation.
Team needs more stuns? Basher works. Wanna catch enemies and make up for your lack of regen and attack speed? Echo saber works. Just plain old Venge? Force staff.
I still dont quite get it. as a 5 venge i'm getting maybe tranquil boots, pavise-medallion, shard, glimmer, force staff, then aghs none of which would benefit from the melee facet.
Getting treads, basher, echo feels way greedier and i feel like i'm stealing farm from my carry. That's core venge to me. Core venge I agree that the melee talent is powerful.
You can really tell the difference between a support player and a carry player who is theorycrafting what supporting looks like. That post was absurd.
Just get basher for teamfight stuns lul.
I'm not really playing 5 Venge, only 4 and 3, so my advice would be pretty useless to you, I feel.
To be honest, I never quite understood the point of tranquil boots on a hero that fights, even though it's alledgedly free regen.
>I feel lile I'm stealing farm from my carry
You don't have to steal farm to get items. Dewarding, stacking, pushing more dangerous lanes give a lot gold. And if you die doing one of these, you still give your team more information about the state of the map without losing much yourself. I'm not advocating to through yourself to die, don't get me wrong, but to make sure the lanes stay pushed, keep vision up or at least to ascertain the heat is not where your carry farms.
> To be honest, I never quite understood the point of tranquil boots on a hero that fights, even though it's alledgedly free regen.
Support Venge farms fairly slowly. Not as slowly as Dark Willow does, because she does have Wave of Terror. But still slow. So you want to avoid hitting creeps as much as possible and focus on your strong skirmishing/teamfight potential and roam as often as you can.
Tranquil gives you the most movement speed to roam constantly, it allows you to roam earlier because they're cheap, it makes it easier to trade in the lane and if you survive whatever roam you do, you get regen.
That being said, Venge's spells are kind of expensive so it hurts a lot to go Tranquils because of mana problems. But also her most common items (Crest, Glimmer, Force) also incur big mana costs on a hero that already struggle with them, so she runs into really bad mana issues. You can solve this with an Aether, but she has to give up one of the other incredibly valuable support items to do that.
I don't like it but it makes sense. Personally, I prefer to go for either Arcane boots, so I can trade more with spells and be more useful in fights, or Treads so I can better manage my small mana pool, trade better with right clicks and... well... be useful in fights as well I guess. Also, it helps with farming in the downtimes, which is why I like them most.
The pick rate for the melee is about 40% and the win rate is about 1.5% lower (and super close to 50%), and yeah I’d guess even though it is lower that some quantity of that is people trying and failing to play it carry (the data I have isn’t able to distinguish by position unfortunately)
Winrate alone isn't a good enough metric though.
For example, the old Ancient Apparition Ult % talent was bugged and didn't do anything, so it was the objectively worse choice and had a much higher winrate.
Is the cleave still centered on venge or is it centered on the target? Also wouldnt just building agi be better than echo given shes universal and has such a great base attack time with the facet?
I just used Echo as an early game spike until I disassembled it for BKB, sold the rest of the components, and built a Butterfly.
Honestly it wasn't needed at all. I just wanted to meme around with melee items.
The cleave is centered around the target. Not sure about agi, but you build a shit ton of stats on her and having echo early gives her some stats and much needed attack speed in the early game.
I have yet to try Vengeful but does this mean she benefits for both range and melee items? Like can you buy dragon lance and basher and both will work?
[Yes sir](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/7/7b/Vo_gyrocopter_gyro_move_04.mp3) (sound warning: Gyrocopter)
---
Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero*
[*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)*
[*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)*
[*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)*
[*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
The only thing that doesn't seem to work is Echo Saber + Specialist's Array. Both work for her individually but the specialist array seems to mess up the echo saber proc.
to be fair they *were* the same back in 2013, I think that was still when the build up was double blades of attack for big damage. it was only with the "recent" couple of reworks later on (attack speed given to phase boots, damage to treads, and from just giving damage to damage + armour) which also started added different stats for ranged/melee heroes.
Same.
Tested it on release date and it was 10%.
Saw this thread and everyone saying it works with basher. Went into game to test again. Still 10%.
I'm not sure what people who says basher works like she's melee are doing.
Sven is tankier, starts with the battlefury, and has way more damage.
I don't think you should even buy the bfury on carry venge. It only does 35% dmg to creeps and venge attack speed and mobility is not that great so you still farm pretty slowly with fury. Manta is way better imo because you get the good melee illusions and the stats are better for universal.
The better sven is actually lion with fist of death.
I have played with and against Venge carry recently and what makes her strong is that she is tanky by building stat items (universal hero) and also, you have to kill her twice after getting Aghanims. Really hard to focus down in fights, does crazy dmg. If you go Battlefury or have Magnus in the team, she farms really fast as well.
Anything that cares about Melee works as if melee. The only thing that differs her is that the damage block still counts her as ranged (so for base damage block and vanguard purposes, she's ranged, everything else she's melee - though she still benefits from ranged items, like Specialist's Array).
Im curious, I used to play AD venge a few big patches ago and, as fun as it was and as excited as I am to play it again, I’m worried that she still has the same problems she did back then, which is that she kindof lacks survivability. Almost any other traditional carry was a better choice, and lifesteal alone isn’t enough. You can buy bkb satanic but you’ll lose to most carries that already have those built in and get an extra item, or have some other survivability. I dunno. Point is, I don’t really know of this solves most of her issues, but I’ll still try it anyway.
I don't think you can ever know for sure without testing. Basher had ranged proc chance in 7.36 and now melee chance in 7.36a. Vanguard treats her as ranged, phase boots treats her as melee, innate damage block treats her as ranged
Ranged melee is a strong build in LOD, so I can imagine in the right scenario she could be really strong
Ranged Cleave, basher, echo sound very good honestly
Add onto that maybe slightly further range dragon lance and grove bow you could really slam someone
Yeah it's like pretty high chance instabash. Heck if you use hurricane pike it's like guaranteed with the 4 hits from far?
I didn't think about it but orb of corrosion as well early on, can be also devastating, wave into corrosion you hit like a truck
Hmm yeah and what the poster said, there's alot of other things can take advantage of.
Even simple things like quelling blade since she considered melee
She really hits hard with that Facet and you dont even have to use item that is bonkers for melee hero. Just use your usual carry item and she will destroy you (tested in turbo playing as pos 2 until 30 minute mark).
I saw some guy in day 1 of the patch with Battlefury. She's actually busted. He can even go as a secondary carry and start from the offlane with an aggressive pos 4.
the first day i saw her patch . i start playing her with hurricane pike, echo sabre and basher.
after that match i stop playing her as carry. doesnt worth
So it works, but venge lacks anything that makes her a good carry. She doesn't have on hit keep away like drow or sniper, doesn't have free kills like jugg or ck, can't farm like an alchemist, AM, or naga, the durability of a lifestealer or lone druid, or the late game scaling of spectre or medusa, she just lacks that extra omph to make her worth running. If you run her as a core, you are better off running her mid or offlane with an Echo Saber as your first big item, but even that doesn't feel great.
I looked at the sets available and arcana one seems to have best looking stuff. Aside from hair. Suppose the sets will look better once you unlock second purple skin or that raving queen milf.
It is indeed the most beautiful set I've seen also, Vengeful Arcana + Vision of the Seraph Scion is a perfect combo. Every set (3 unlockable designs) fits everything.
Whats fun is she gains boot melee movement speed and damage, broom handle attack range, 33% damage manta illusions, and melee on hit effects (Basher, OoC, Battlefury), while also being a melee hero for Eye of Skadi and Heaven's Halberd, but still benefits from attack range increases and can still use Crackshot from Specialist's Array.
Does dragon lance increase her attack range?
Yes.
yes, but dlance + broom handle will negate the broom handle attack range
I'm sure this was a case that wasn't considered, and is a bug.
are you sure? last i checked broom put her base from 400to450 while d lance was a flat +150bonus
It can be tested in demo mode. Equipping broom by itself will give +50 atk range as expected. When you buy Dlance, the bonus atk range only goes up to +150. So essentially broom's bonus range stops working.
yep just checked, you are right. I could have sworn it changed the400 to 450 the other day though. maybe shadowpatch?
It will change it from 400 to 450. It won’t change it from 550 to 600. Broom works on its own, but stops working when dragon lance is added, at least that’s what I’m understanding here
You're very likely to be on a T2 item by the time you finish dragon lance unless you rush it without treads and wraith bands or get really fat in lane.
Noting to check as well
I read that as Dagon, I was scratching my head for a good 20 seconds
Eye of Skadi is basing its slow % by the hero it hits right? not by the wearer.
This is correct. The real question is how it affects Venge on the receiving end of it
venge is slowed for 20% as if shes a melee unit
She is so full of vengeance, that such things won't stop her from murdering her sister.
All negative effects are calculated as if she is melee (skadi/hh/OoC/etc)
This is what I thought as well.
I always thought it's the wearer... Same as OOV
skadi was changed a few years back iirc
But she doesn't block damage, which is a bummer
What about Vanguard?
25.
Melees can buy whatever block she can. She cant buy melees innate poor mans shield
She's supposed to be a queen so she has no poor man's gear. Lore checks out
What about hurricane pike?
Strangely also works
This is Dota1 Lore correct, because she throws herself as an attack in Dota1. Obviously it would count as melee. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuBLwIXqhy8
Yea that could be the inspiration behind this. Iirc some patches ago they started adding elements in dota 2 that is likely inspired by Dota 1 like how Anti Mage current Agh, and i believe at the time it was Blink Illu creation was a reference to "fake blink" mechanic of dota 1 and i remember mentioning Venge Throw Herself havent been implemented yet despite the fact that Venge was effectively returned to her super old version at the time(e.g. faster Magic Missile, but all her skills lose the bloated features) Until now
probably icefrogs response to people thinking he's not balancing the game now, he's still balancing the game IMO. he just has the help of analytics from dota api. The rumor that he wasn't was just people angry the dota patches didn't change dota enough.
Could PA being technically visible but impossible to click with Blur on be a reference to the quirk of her model going invisible when Blur was skilled on the lowest graphic settibgs?
Idk about the lowest graphic setting because net cafe back then aren't that great anyway, but wc3 blur when skilled will make PA more and more translucent. "Newer" version at max level only make her translucent to the point you can't make out her model details but at the very least you can still see her general silhoutte (ffs this word is impossible to memorize) and recognizable by glancing alone. Old-ish version though at max level her model is straight out invisible, only her shadow that every hero unit cast that are visible; back then our net cafe scene hasn't standardized HP bar always on setting so the only way to "see" her is by brighthening the screen and paying close attention to her distinct attack sfx.
Wasn't that intentional, or only at max rank Blur, where she became just her targeting circle?
The "fake blink" thing was from later-ish version, until then AM's blink animation and effect are directly lifted from wc3's version which is identical with Dota 2 effect.
Fake Blink was from wc3 and like existed since AT LEAST the version where Mirana and Sacred(Huskar) was the latest hero. IIRC its along the lines of Blink creates a pseudo illusion on place of arrival before the hero replaces the pseudo illusion which is why its possible to do fake out by blinking then canceling it before the pseudo illusion is out IIRC Earthshaker and Enigma had similar mechanics where Black Hole and Echo Slam was done by creating a psuedo unit that channels/act as echo carrier or something
Yeah, the version I was referring was older, like before Siege unit was introduced kind of old.
...ok wow yeah that sounds giga cursed
Best of both worlds
Also early game OOV and OOC and echo sabre works. It might just be good even for support.
> basher i want to apologize to the venge player i called stupid for buying basher
Wait, Battlefury works with this facet? Hot damn.
I read somewhere here that "a BF venge is the least of your worries in this patch" which is kinda true 😭 it's just a fun new mechanic is all
I tried it out and it felt not terrible, but core Venge still feels like kind of a meme still
Encountered 2 games with pos 1 picking vs melee... statistically at 100% loss in rank 4k mmr. Feels like he is fun to fool around but falls short compared to other pos 1 heroes
Seems like it could me most effective as Pos 2 depending on the matchup
Think I won't mind it as a pos2 or 4. Just... not as pos 1 please as theres better choices
The issue is when she dies, the illu only deals 25% of her base attack. So even if u build stats for the base dmg, it's not as impactful as last time when she's dealing 100%. The buffed attack speed gives her a little more damage
Ahhhhh... never thought about that. That makes sense too
I guess mag can empower venge and give her cleave right? that seems like a sturdy combo even in the lane
And it's crazy op since Venge is a universal hero
Oh I already seen a video of that, I searched Venge 7.36 and it pops out
[What's done is done. ](https://youtu.be/bpYm0J2flc0)
Yes, since battle fury works on her as melee and it cleaves, empower also works.
Can also buy bf on her.
Is there an argument to take the melee facet just so you can be a ranged support that fully benefits from an Orb purchase for lanin, as opposed to dealing more damage to cores with missile later in the game?
That's what I've been doing to pretty great success. Orb of Venom on her is extremely powerful in the laning phase.
This sounds pretty disgusting actually, corrosion is probably good on her too
doubling up on armour reduction sounda good to me
It don’t do that no more. Blight stone only builds into deso now.
great success
Kinda. The additional damage for magic missile is not really a game changer.
It's not as powerful as the right facet, but you see the difference after someone killed 300 creeps, but just having a pseudo-melee option invalidates the left facet. If it were a 1:1 ratio for damage to creeps, it might see usage (together with a phylactery or such), Venge could have good burst damage with spells. But yeah, the right facet is way too good
I played a 55 minute game as venge supp the other day Despite shroud my magic missile was a tactical nuke on a lesh and his nearly 700 cs
It is surprisingly strong, more so if you consider a phylactery/Khanda with Venge's base attack scaling. It's a VERY good facet, no question. Just that the other one is basically better due to the strengths melee build can work for her
I strongly disagree, I just bodied an entire game nearly by myself as a Venge 4. My missile was clearing their 3 BB and 1 Luna to the point I could solo both and walk away barely taking any damage. There's a lot of benefits to "melee" Venge but if you're a support how much money can you really dump into your right click? Missile requires nothing of you and technically scales infinitely throughout the game.
Unless they literally have like 1K+ CS where the extra gold has less effect on their EHP, I don't see how this adds up. Sure your might be doing a few hundred extra damage, but the implication is that then they must have huge networth from all the farming. There's simply no way a venge 4 can magically solo a 6 slotted Luna because her 7s cd nuke is doing 250 more damage than before, unless it's like some gimpy magic Luna build with ult on CD.
They’re gonna farm regardless of your facet anyway. Also you don’t have to solo them, it’s just a lot of free damage which is always good compared to the questionable bonuses a support venge comes from being able to utilize melee modifiers.
Yeah. 1000 CS means 750 bonus magic damage. If we go to 400 which is more realistic, that means every missile deals 300 extra magic damage which also gets reduced. That is basically one or two auto attacks from venge at that point. And with a way better BAT of 1.5, this is easily done. Not a bad facet, but the other one is just strictly better since there is no drawback from switching to melee
Right, but the melee facet is clearly for core Venge and not support Venge, so this is never a consideration. Lower BAT doesn't matter for support venge after the first few minutes of the game where trading matters (and it only helps her trading a little bit, it's not a game changer). Support Venge never buys any items or gets any neutrals that gain more benefit from being on a melee hero, so the facet does literally nothing for her. So you'd never take it on 4 or 5 Venge, you'd always take Avenging Missile. That being said, it's not a huge deal in most matches anyway. Accounting for base line 25% magic resist, your Magic Missile deals 112 more damage (382) than normal Magic Missile (270) which just gets worse for anyone with Mage Slayer/Pipe/Shroud/Glimmer. But it's better than nothing and Soul Strike would just do nothing for you.
> Support Venge never buys any items or gets any neutrals that gain more benefit from being on a melee hero, so the facet does literally nothing for her. Orb of Venom seems pretty reasonable.
Am I understanding it wrong? I thought Venge must kill units to get bonus. Thus, it's almost useless for supp Venge.
Yeah, it scales based on the number of last hits your *target* has.
Also remember you get double value from shard?
It has a slightly higher win rate though.
melee facet is probably inflated by pos1 venges griefing with battlefury
Yeah you're right. pos1 venge is less bad than before but probably still bad
You should also notice that her BAT reduces in her melee form. That’s ez attack speed buff when you need it. (I picked that facet recently just to deal with enemy Undying)
I think there are way too much benefits from this facet compared to the other. The missile one is *fine*, nothing wrong with it except that the other makes you a better right clicker at all points in the game, gives you item and abilities benefits notably from boots, widens your itemization and all that with literally no drawback. Also, the other one becomes not that good in shorter matches, particularly winning ones, so you're banking on the enemy winning early to mid game and going very late game BUT you could have a much more solid early with the second facet's benefits. So either you decide to prepare to lose half of your game with benefits for one spell (with a good uptime, damage and a shard, tbf) or you get a strong all rounder that makes everything easier
With support venge what benefit is there to take the melee facet? you can't be greedy enough to even take advantage of it? This new patch also seems to really favour snowballing and faster games so good teams will likely end it before you can fully scale as a 4 or a 5.
If the current meta favours faster games, there's even less reasons to pick the missile facet. >You can't be greedy enough to take advantage of it? Venge can hit like a truck pretty easily and pretty fast. Considering she doesn't usually buy attack speed, that still makes her harass 20% better, gives her free movement speed with Power Treads and Phase Boots if you want to go that route, allows her to get items way faster (considering wave is pretty good for farming) and allows for more items to try depending on the situation. Team needs more stuns? Basher works. Wanna catch enemies and make up for your lack of regen and attack speed? Echo saber works. Just plain old Venge? Force staff.
I still dont quite get it. as a 5 venge i'm getting maybe tranquil boots, pavise-medallion, shard, glimmer, force staff, then aghs none of which would benefit from the melee facet. Getting treads, basher, echo feels way greedier and i feel like i'm stealing farm from my carry. That's core venge to me. Core venge I agree that the melee talent is powerful.
You can really tell the difference between a support player and a carry player who is theorycrafting what supporting looks like. That post was absurd. Just get basher for teamfight stuns lul.
I dunno, I recall that one singular pro game with the kotl buying basher to interrupt black hole.
> like i'm stealing farm from my carry. It's not 2012 anymore. Every one should be getting *something*.
I'm not really playing 5 Venge, only 4 and 3, so my advice would be pretty useless to you, I feel. To be honest, I never quite understood the point of tranquil boots on a hero that fights, even though it's alledgedly free regen. >I feel lile I'm stealing farm from my carry You don't have to steal farm to get items. Dewarding, stacking, pushing more dangerous lanes give a lot gold. And if you die doing one of these, you still give your team more information about the state of the map without losing much yourself. I'm not advocating to through yourself to die, don't get me wrong, but to make sure the lanes stay pushed, keep vision up or at least to ascertain the heat is not where your carry farms.
> To be honest, I never quite understood the point of tranquil boots on a hero that fights, even though it's alledgedly free regen. Support Venge farms fairly slowly. Not as slowly as Dark Willow does, because she does have Wave of Terror. But still slow. So you want to avoid hitting creeps as much as possible and focus on your strong skirmishing/teamfight potential and roam as often as you can. Tranquil gives you the most movement speed to roam constantly, it allows you to roam earlier because they're cheap, it makes it easier to trade in the lane and if you survive whatever roam you do, you get regen. That being said, Venge's spells are kind of expensive so it hurts a lot to go Tranquils because of mana problems. But also her most common items (Crest, Glimmer, Force) also incur big mana costs on a hero that already struggle with them, so she runs into really bad mana issues. You can solve this with an Aether, but she has to give up one of the other incredibly valuable support items to do that.
I don't like it but it makes sense. Personally, I prefer to go for either Arcane boots, so I can trade more with spells and be more useful in fights, or Treads so I can better manage my small mana pool, trade better with right clicks and... well... be useful in fights as well I guess. Also, it helps with farming in the downtimes, which is why I like them most.
orb of venom is a big one
considering the melee facet has a lower winrate, it seems like it doesn't have too much benefit after all
What is the pickrate? The winrate difference could also consider that more people grief with the melee facet
The pick rate for the melee is about 40% and the win rate is about 1.5% lower (and super close to 50%), and yeah I’d guess even though it is lower that some quantity of that is people trying and failing to play it carry (the data I have isn’t able to distinguish by position unfortunately)
People also arent picking the left one to go battlefury cores on it
Winrate alone isn't a good enough metric though. For example, the old Ancient Apparition Ult % talent was bugged and didn't do anything, so it was the objectively worse choice and had a much higher winrate.
Yes buying orb on her is surprisingly good
this is what ive been doing her right click harrass goes to the next level with the bettar BAT. and yeah I buy oov on her.
The best part of this facet is the animation!!!!!!! Vengeful throwing her spirit to spite her enemies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DOTA WC3 -end of flash back
wait, its only with right facet? thats pretty cool actually
Basher venge.
I played Battlefury - Echosaber - Basher Venge last night. Was good fun
Is the cleave still centered on venge or is it centered on the target? Also wouldnt just building agi be better than echo given shes universal and has such a great base attack time with the facet?
cleave is centered on the target
I just used Echo as an early game spike until I disassembled it for BKB, sold the rest of the components, and built a Butterfly. Honestly it wasn't needed at all. I just wanted to meme around with melee items.
The cleave is centered around the target. Not sure about agi, but you build a shit ton of stats on her and having echo early gives her some stats and much needed attack speed in the early game.
And it works!
I have yet to try Vengeful but does this mean she benefits for both range and melee items? Like can you buy dragon lance and basher and both will work?
Yes, tested it the other day
Yes sir
[Yes sir](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/7/7b/Vo_gyrocopter_gyro_move_04.mp3) (sound warning: Gyrocopter) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
Yep. Which makes something like venom orb as a starting item quite nice
That would be awesome for lvl 1 trading as a pos 4. I should have thought of that earlier.
Dragon Lance Grove bow echo saber basher works It's funny
The only thing that doesn't seem to work is Echo Saber + Specialist's Array. Both work for her individually but the specialist array seems to mess up the echo saber proc.
I... had no idea phase boots were different for melee xD
TILL playing since 2013
to be fair they *were* the same back in 2013, I think that was still when the build up was double blades of attack for big damage. it was only with the "recent" couple of reworks later on (attack speed given to phase boots, damage to treads, and from just giving damage to damage + armour) which also started added different stats for ranged/melee heroes.
She can't miss uphill.
I am pretty sure he also doesnt have miss chanche when hitting high ground
That's pretty valuable, especially when sieging T3 tower.
So when shes halberded by an ememy, does it count as melee or ranged? How about Skadi slow?
It's melee for both just tested. 3 secs on halberd. Lower reductions from skadi
I think it’s such a cool concept, but the decision to try this on a universal hero with a damage steroid is crazy
I tried basher in demo hero I swear is just 10%.
Same. Tested it on release date and it was 10%. Saw this thread and everyone saying it works with basher. Went into game to test again. Still 10%. I'm not sure what people who says basher works like she's melee are doing.
It could be bugged still. They probably don't know / haven't gotten to all the bugs yet
With Echo Sabre and melee items like Basher, she seems like a heavier hitting Weaver.
Except what makes weaver strong is shukuchi
But weaver hits hard with his second bug too
Well, Weaver doesn't hit enemies with Shukuchi, now does he? He passes through them. Hmm?
\*finger prods on your shoulder* \[Aghanim's Shard]: "Hi!"
"Who tf are you?! I have Magic Missile and I'm not afraid to use it."
How about better sven? wdyt
Sven is tankier, starts with the battlefury, and has way more damage. I don't think you should even buy the bfury on carry venge. It only does 35% dmg to creeps and venge attack speed and mobility is not that great so you still farm pretty slowly with fury. Manta is way better imo because you get the good melee illusions and the stats are better for universal. The better sven is actually lion with fist of death.
I have played with and against Venge carry recently and what makes her strong is that she is tanky by building stat items (universal hero) and also, you have to kill her twice after getting Aghanims. Really hard to focus down in fights, does crazy dmg. If you go Battlefury or have Magnus in the team, she farms really fast as well.
Do you get the melee-hero damageblock too?
I think this is the one thing you dont get...
No. She's innately still a ranged hero (with melee attacks).
Does broom handle stack to?
Anything that cares about Melee works as if melee. The only thing that differs her is that the damage block still counts her as ranged (so for base damage block and vanguard purposes, she's ranged, everything else she's melee - though she still benefits from ranged items, like Specialist's Array).
I feel like the damage block is an oversight and will probably get fixed to work as "melee" next patch. It's a very weird unmentioned exception.
yes but when you buy a dragon lance, the broom handle bonus vanishes, not sure why
thats actually sick, valve really cooked this patch
wait what....ok i will spam venge, finally a ranged basher buyer
Had a carry Venge the other day. Not amazing, but it was fun. Very back and forth game that we ended up winning.
2 games om pos 1 venge so far. I press hurricane pike + mask of madness + basher and bach people from 1000 range while reducing 11 armor.
Im curious, I used to play AD venge a few big patches ago and, as fun as it was and as excited as I am to play it again, I’m worried that she still has the same problems she did back then, which is that she kindof lacks survivability. Almost any other traditional carry was a better choice, and lifesteal alone isn’t enough. You can buy bkb satanic but you’ll lose to most carries that already have those built in and get an extra item, or have some other survivability. I dunno. Point is, I don’t really know of this solves most of her issues, but I’ll still try it anyway.
Orb of corrosion phase boot venge p4 With drow p3 Win lane ez
> drow p3 wut
Yeah, why not just play that comp 1 and 2?
Isn't the issue not about Venge but all items somehow work the opposite for ranged and melee currently due to a bug?
nah it’s been fixed
Is there any items list that work/don't work with that ability on Venge?
Vanguard
no
Isn't this clearly explained in the patch notes ?
I don't think you can ever know for sure without testing. Basher had ranged proc chance in 7.36 and now melee chance in 7.36a. Vanguard treats her as ranged, phase boots treats her as melee, innate damage block treats her as ranged
Ranged melee is a strong build in LOD, so I can imagine in the right scenario she could be really strong Ranged Cleave, basher, echo sound very good honestly Add onto that maybe slightly further range dragon lance and grove bow you could really slam someone
Echo is great cause you can get two procs off if you launch another attack before the projectile lands.
Yeah it's like pretty high chance instabash. Heck if you use hurricane pike it's like guaranteed with the 4 hits from far? I didn't think about it but orb of corrosion as well early on, can be also devastating, wave into corrosion you hit like a truck
Didn't try hurricane yet but that sounds pretty plausible
Hmm yeah and what the poster said, there's alot of other things can take advantage of. Even simple things like quelling blade since she considered melee
That doesn't sound like the intended interaction
Edge case, they'll leave it as a feature
She also works with echo saber
Echo sabre works and I love it.
Yup, she gains full bonus from any stat items. She gets melee attack range buffs, echo saber double hits, and ranged bonuses. Its really fun
Oldschool troll could buy items in melee form and get the melee versions then change into ranged
She really hits hard with that Facet and you dont even have to use item that is bonkers for melee hero. Just use your usual carry item and she will destroy you (tested in turbo playing as pos 2 until 30 minute mark).
Yo, I like this, very nice
I saw some guy in day 1 of the patch with Battlefury. She's actually busted. He can even go as a secondary carry and start from the offlane with an aggressive pos 4.
These are all fun things when you're the venge, god laning against her rn is obnoxious
That's great
Whats the best pos for her with this setup?
Echo works too
Delete this. They'll take away our powersss
She looks like Anya Taylor in that portrait lol
My only issue arising is extra damage missles for ememy cores that farm a lot.
Does she benefit from the built-in stout shield block that all melee heroes have as innate?
i was off dota 2 for a good 9 months came back to a Skywrath Mage that stun me WITH BATTLEFURY WTF VALVE
the first day i saw her patch . i start playing her with hurricane pike, echo sabre and basher. after that match i stop playing her as carry. doesnt worth
I am to Scared to do it myself anybody tried BF Venge?
So it works, but venge lacks anything that makes her a good carry. She doesn't have on hit keep away like drow or sniper, doesn't have free kills like jugg or ck, can't farm like an alchemist, AM, or naga, the durability of a lifestealer or lone druid, or the late game scaling of spectre or medusa, she just lacks that extra omph to make her worth running. If you run her as a core, you are better off running her mid or offlane with an Echo Saber as your first big item, but even that doesn't feel great.
Nah mate Venge can absolutely slap when you get a good Advantage Yesterday I 4 Shot an fed Lifestealer i always buy Khanda Deso Shard and Satanic
Nevermind this, the fact echo saber works is one of the most bonkers parts
I made a quick test (before patch 7.36a) and the proc for the basher was still for a range unit and not for a melee one.
Same, definitely wasn't bashing every 4 hits or so. Hope it was patched.
The patchnotes mentioned fixing abyssal proc chance for her.
Lowkey flexing the cache set 🌝
I looked at the sets available and arcana one seems to have best looking stuff. Aside from hair. Suppose the sets will look better once you unlock second purple skin or that raving queen milf.
It is indeed the most beautiful set I've seen also, Vengeful Arcana + Vision of the Seraph Scion is a perfect combo. Every set (3 unlockable designs) fits everything.
Now i regret not getting it. Might have to look in the grey market. But i doubt its cheap so meh.
It goes 30-50 usd recently, luckily I've found someone not so greedy for 20 usd only. It's so good!
There's a dota cinema video on YouTube compiling how bonkers this is
yeah, that's the point