[My son will understand](https://external-preview.redd.it/NKdmsUerqT3w_LQumdyLv6QNSGfqXmVfYXnLja5XIng.jpg?auto=webp&s=c73bebec9a067590d7c8e8abd39180d44b6f14bb)
Other than the "Doom: deny her" pasta and "what are you ~~farming~~ *building* prophet? [Money](https://i.imgur.com/mjjW9P0.jpeg)", this is one of my favourite pub chat screenshots.
Deny her (especially with the zoom) has to be my all-time fav, but "enough for do my power" is so joyfully stupid and so quintessentially "who cares, it'll be fun still".
It is, but it sucks that the other 4 players get screwed over. If it is that big of a deal, boot Ceb and make them find someone to play in both the qualifier and TI (if they qualify). But really they should just let them use a standin for longer than 1 day
But those were the rules since the beginning and I don't think those rules are anything new. OG was aware of the potential issue since way before the roster deadline (as they mentioned), so it isn't even a surprise event.
From what I read in this thread, it seems like OG told PGL well in advance and PGL agreed to one day's adjustment for a mother's first child. I think allowing a second day would be reasonable. A mother's first child usually takes a lot longer to give birth to than later children.
I mean, having a baby is not a 'surprise'. He surely knew months ahead that the baby is coming around this time but STILL they chose to enlist Ceb on the roster knowing that they are risking their Org's chance to go to TI. Don't get me wrong, family first above anything else but their decision making made this a lot more complicated than it should be.
Edit: If it's like an emergency thing. Like if its really really really unexpected, unplanned, (accidents or unforeseen medical issues) then PGL should make the exception. I don't know on this situation though. Just my opinion.
I'm not defending Ceb/OG here - I agree with the sentiment that they should have taken issue with this rule at the onset, not now after they've already agreed to the rules by participating in the tournament - but I just wanted to clarify a bit. A "normal" pregnancy can end pretty commonly/safely (so not "an emergency thing") anytime from 8-9.5 months. And this is rendered even further imprecise by the fact that pregnancies are often counted from the last menstruation, which is obviously not completely accurate in terms of conception.
its not like he is playing alone or with 4 other millionaires, ceb is already a multi millionaire but his teammates aren't and this is their full time job and TI is a big potential payday
More like "OG trying to get special treatment for the 50th time by pressuring the community into pressuring PGL" lmao
I think PGL is trash and you can clearly check that by my comment history
But you Can't go around just creating exceptions for teams in the middle of the tournament.
If the rules are trash they should've talked about the issue OPENLY and complained to valve and the community before the tournament or just changed players when they knew there was no choice.
We all know if this was fucking Supream from Rest Farmers or a player for Mouz they would NEVER get any exceptions and CEB shouldn't get it as well.
Your son is more important and he's doing the right thing. Just take the L and move on.
Next time just create the issue before the tournament so maybe the trash rules get changed... Don't accept it then complain in the middle lol
The rules are simply poorly made, injuries and personal problems happens in every working field. Not being capable of taking few days off without hurting you team is just stupid.
The rules do suck, but it's generally impossible to get the community to get behind any positive change unless they can clearly see how it impacts someone they care for, or if someone they care for pushes for it independently.
As an OG fan I'm with PGL on this one, doesn't matter what tournament it was, just go enjoy the birth of your first child, like, come on, not take 1 or 2 days off, take a whole week to be with your wife, Jesus, this video game shit ain't more important than that. Sucks for the whole org and other players, but this is a no-brainer man.
Putting the blame and calling out PGL is crazy, yes they are a shitty org but it's baffling to think they should do this for you. Yes it would be great if all parties agrees to reschedule this, but acting like the organizers are at fault is some mad crazy shit.
I dont like PGL either... they knew its going to be a risk/conflict and went on with the roster anyways.
you cant compete if you want to be there for the arrival of your first child...
this one is on OG/Ceb
I'm mixed on this. On one hand, assuming everything the post says is true, they did let them know about this issue in advance (back in May). My issue is, if they were not satisfied with the workaround given by PGL (1 day stand-in only), why not raise the issue then? If it was before the tournament started, I wouldn't mind there being community outcry to get the rule change for the better.
Now that the tournament has already started, I don't know if it's good precedent to get them to change the rules to adjust for one team's circumstances mid tourney.
The rule itself not allowing for a stand-in slot in general seems a bit weird, but given the tournament is already midway, idk if it would be fair to change it for OG. I think they should've been a lot more public/proactive with their grievances and this would've been a different story.
Bro if someone is dead I don’t think anything else matters more than bereavement. In the case of Ceb, is there a precedent of PGL bending its rules for this particular instance? If none, then this will be the precedent. Other teams will cite this for future references. We have seen teams get forfeit because their visa got issued late yet TOs don’t care, how much more for someone who choose to be gone for a few days when he has the physical capacity (not mental/emotional/familial, to be clear)to play?
It was odd for an org to have a stand-in during the qualifiers, and you do understand what it means, right? As the name suggests, this is to decide whether a team of 5 people “qualifies” for the tournament. No doubt about Ceb’s abilities, but if you have only 4 of them do the qualifiers and if they do qualify and that 1 other guy doesn’t go through the qualifiers and joins the mainstage, what does that look like?
I mean back then I bet they didn't expect Cebs wife to go into labour in the 5 days of the qualifiers. Theres only so proactive you can be with a birth of a human, which anyone who has had a kid/family has had a kid knows, it just kind of happens at the worst time. 9 months of pregnancy is a kind of general time frame, I was 5 weeks early, and my sister was 2 weeks late, my niece was 2 whole months early. Shits kind of random, babies come out whenever they want to. Unless you schedule a c-section, but that may not have been a viable option for them for whatever reason
So the no standin rule makes sense since you have been invited with the roster and you cannot simply swap for a let's say a player with a totally different hero pool that you know will give an advantage against another team.
At the same time I don't think they can come up with an airtight rule here.
I think they should allow the roster change and let immersion qualify for TI if they make it.
To be devils advocate here.
Under extremely rare circumstances you would find a stand-in who is better than your current player AND who is clanless/teamless and/or doesnt play for the invited/qualified Teams already.
The thing is OG could have just done this from the start
they could have registered a roster without Ceb since apparently they knew about this complication in advance, they didn't and now try to have the fans force PGL to give them special privileges
I'm not so sure about that. The variance on when the kid arrives is just so high.
How do you justify to your players to play open qualifiers vs. getting seated in the upper bracket (that actually matters this time because not everybody starts from upper bracket) in case the baby is born in that 10percentile?
Nothing to be mixed about. They told PGL what may happen, PGL agreed to make an EXCEPTION if that happens, then OG agreed on the terms of that exception, now people want more. I hate PGL, but they should not let OG play another game with stand in
> The rule itself not allowing for a stand-in slot in general seems a bit weird
If a team uses a stand-in for the last day of qualifiers only, who should get the invite to TI? The player that carried the team through to finals or the player that clinched the win? It is not an easy question, and I think it would be an even greater controversy if such a situation came to pass.
To be fair, i'm with PGL on this.
OG could replace Ceb if they know he will not play in Quals and will not go TI as consequences.
Talon Replace Chyuan with Mikoto on 5th June so i guess PGL okay with replacing roster.
Not allowing a substitute player is weird/dumb indeed
TOs usually follow the rulebook without applying some common sense, like Skitter(?) pissing in a bottle in his desk cause he was not allowed to leave his desk
There is so many uncontrollable stuff that can happen to a person its stupid that theres a "no standin allowed" rule
Not arguing for or against that rule necessarily, but what happens if a player has a medical emergency? Like if topson breaks his arm tonight falling down the stairs or something are Tundra just disqualified on the spot?
Normal team sports have more than needed players for subs during a game. What's wrong with a dota2 team having 1 or 2 pre allocated players as a sub/standin? Plenty of teams have coaches that play a few games here and there for various reasons
Most of team that getting benched or subbed rather play on another team than being bench warmer? Can you recall any sub / benches player that stays on team? MC rather quit than getting benched by Tundra for examples.
That's why all team sports have stand in.
They need to start doing that for dota 2.
Put 6-7 player squad and you'll only know who's playing after the draft. Or on that day.
What's really weird about this is it's a 5 man game. If they're professional athletes, there should be an option for a sixth man to be on the bench. This would be like in, say, literally every other professional sport in the world. It's actually a little weird to me that 'rosters' are of exactly five players instead of, say, eight or so. That way the hero pools could be **far** larger. Might make the pro game actually more interesting.
Valve's rules for CS Majors
Team roster must include 5 players ("Core Lineup").
Team roster may optionally include 1 coach.
Team roster may optionally include 1 substitute player.
The coach and substitute may be the same person.
Valorant and League have subs too. I've seen LCK (basically tier 1 DPC in Korea) League teams change a top and a mid laner after one game recently in a bo3 series, **2 subs**, at the highest level of League of Legends, at a LAN.
A team sport without subs is just kind of weird. People slip on banana peels, people get sick, and people can have emergencies.
Bare minimum a team should have one sub, in fact, they should be **required** to have a sub. Up to 3 subs or more max.
Also for the people who are saying "well they'll just switch players with a better hero pool or playstyle against certain matchups".
For one. I have yet to see a pro eSports team in any game, at any level, achieve consistent success doing this. Some Valorant teams tried it IIRC last year to no avail with an entire off season of practice.
And second. If they do manage to make it work. Then it's fair play and increases strategical depth. It's not an individual eSport at the end of the day and it's the best team that wins. Having specialized subs is a team strategy.
At the end of the day, eSports relies way too much on team chemistry for subbing players in/out to give an edge over a large sample size of games. It'll take years before anyone can pull it off. Unlike Basketball where you sub in prime Shaq on the most dogshit NBA team and he can use his sheer physical tools to get buckets and block shots with little help from his teammates. You can sub in prime Yatoro on a trash Dota team and he'll get bodied by any average tier 1 level team.
In 20 years, Ceb can use this story to his son based on how well their relationship going. Either saying he cost him millions of dollars and a third title, or sacrificing the potential third win for his beloved son.
If all parties were aware why didn't og just compete with an alternative? If you signed up knowing the rules and a contingency issues arises obviously you're at fault. In an ideal world this should not happen. But you knew it could you knew the rules. Whats the point now
Not really, it is just 4 days qualifiers, baby could be even scheduled for like another month.
What really bugs me in this drama, is that in 2024 Dota 2 teams are not allowed to have one registered standin, especially for Valve event.
Imagine Ramzes having a shower, flipping over slippery floor and breaking his arm, no subs, Tundra is out.
Let's be realistic here OG is done here, such a bad luck for others and good day for Ceb lol.
A random stack can find a random who is high ranked who is willing to be listed as their sub, especially if the sub can be picked post open qualifiers. They don't need to hire one as they are a random stack, the main roster isn't hired.
The logical option is that esports get out of the Stone Age and have a simple paternity/maternity policy like every other sport. If you want to be taken seriously as a sport you should probably not disqualify teams because someone is having a kid.
I can't find the rules but they said in the statement they had until June 3 to decide the final roster, and OG took the gamble. They knew the risks and what the rules did or did not allow. Turning to the public to get leverage is lame.
It's no different from the 1win visa situation and 1win had to forfeit the spot back then.
> What’s the point now
Well, they probably want to use their fans as tools to pressure PGL, as much as I like OG I hope PGL stick to the rules, they shouldn’t be given a preferential treatment
Yeah, that for me is the number one reason why now PGL cannot budge. As a tournament organizer you can't allow yourself to be bullied and blackmailed like this.
But did they have a say? It says no roster changes to teams invited directly to qualifiers. So basicly the team needs to gamble on june 3rd if they would rather play open qualifiers with a standin or if they risk it with ceb? And the time to decide that is basicly the difference from pgl messaging og that they are invited to the day they announce the invited teams?
I understand it's a tough situation but why bend the rules for them? If it's some unknown team then they get nothing. Now they are taking it publicly to get people mad at them.
Edit: let's not forget 1win lost their spot which was given to OG for being 4 hours late on their visa. OG was fine with the rules then
It was already bent for them! I mean the rules clearly state no stand ins allowed. A compromise was reached but now they want more.
On paper, I agree there has to be some wiggle room. I say implement the changes next season. Let OG deal with this according to the letter of the existing rulebook and under the terms of their compromise agreement.
OG is just leveraging their fanbase to "seek justice" when in fact, they're just entitled karen asking for exception. they know full well the delivery might clash, yet, they still lock in ceb. it's not PGL's problem to solve.
Bingo. They knew it might be an issue -- even with a 1 day stand in -- in May, but didn't raise the issue and accepted the solution then. Any smaller team would simply be SOL. OG using their name and fans to try and bully TOs into getting their way is getting really old, even if PGL can be pretty crappy sometimes.
>Edit: let's not forget 1win lost their spot which was given to OG for being 4 hours late on their visa. OG was fine with the rules then
This. OG is trying to create public outrage to get rules bent in their favor, yet had no problem with rules being forced upon other teams when it meant OG was benefitting from it. This hypocrisy is what makes their Tweet kind of embarrassing, regardless of whether Ceb's reason of absence is justified or not.
Yeah, Dude signed up, knowing the consequences, already having a rule change to allow a stand in for one day. It might sound harsh but also a series is normally at most, what 3 hours?
Also pretty funny to me that he wants to be there for the birth, to support his family, but he's going to take out a full month for TI shortly after? Is he playing in Riyadh? So missing that time.
Everyone saying "So he should pick between his career and having a child", yes. Esports isn't any different from a real job.
Honestly, I'm sort of tired of players signing up for rules then complaining about them afterwards.
To be fair in a real job ceb would get paternity leave, someone or some people would fill in for him while he was away, then he would retake his place in his job when his leave was over. So actually the way these rules are set up isn’t like a real job
Not always and not everywhere. And as far as I read it, OG had an option to send him for a paternity leave, essentially declaring a different player before a deadline, while also accepting that this player would then attend the main event instead of Ceb.
Some of these comments are kinda crazy and shows how much people value dota vs irl. Brother give them ability to swap a player temporarily he is having a kid, what’s the issue? Emergencies happen, shit occurs, if a player gets hit by a car and is in the hospital, do they also have 1 day to comeback? Players aren’t npcs, they are real people with lives outside of dota, shit happens and there are better ways of making it fair and by the book then saying no. OG or not OG, Ceb or not Ceb, this is some bullshit and leveraging OGs popularity and love for Ceb is a good way to shine on the problem. Don’t be fucking mad
I think most people here are sympathetic, but moreso confused why this discussion is only happening now that it's going wrong and not before the qualifier starts. If they were having these stand in discussions before and were told no beyond the one day, it makes no sense why the PR statement only goes out when they might get screwed over. They, according to their own statement, had foresight on this one. It's a very valid discussion to be had, and the rules probably needed a change. But a last second rules change from mid tournament outcry is a very troubling precedent, whereas "hey maybe we should allow teams a pre designated stand in player in case of emergencies" is a very reasonable ask pre tournament.
If we did this before the tourney starts it's PGL being the devil who don't value Ceb having a child. But right now it's OG wanting a mid tournament accommodation which is a bad idea from a competitive integrity standpoint. They've somehow turned a very reasonable request into something a lot more complicated
Point of why not blast about it and talk about it before the event is super fair, there is not a real good defense, but if it’s something they have been trying to get done actively since I can understand why( only if).
This sucks for the org and players, but OG have a long history of putting out statements like this in hopes that their fans will go harass the admins and it seems they are doing it again this statement is completely irresponsible and it reads like a 15 year old created it.
OG expects the rules to be changed for them, but when Alliance used a coach in games like the rules allowed they cried about it.
Family is always more important than career. You can always go pub it up, TI happens every year, but the birth of your first child happens only once. Congrats to Ceb.
That said, definitely must suck for the other 4 players who'd be looking forward to TI. Ceb shouldn't be forced to choose between family or career, especially when OG had informed PGL of this earlier. Let's see if Valve would make an exception or any changes.
Why should there be an exception for certain teams? If there is an exception then a small Tier 1 or 2 team should also be allowed to replace their not-as-good player with Sumail or someone else, as you know, he somehow got a papercut on his face and he cant compete now. There should be an exception for this as well.
they should have argued about these before they agreed to them. Now they are just trying to push their fuck up to the community for a reaction. Risky, irresponsible and selfish decision, if they wanna play the "adult card" of responsibilities outside professional life, they should act like adults all the way.
If they knew the rules, and knew the dates might clash months ago, they just shouldn't have signed Ceb. Simple as that.
It's irresponsible of Ceb to put other teammates in such a situation
People are forced to choose between family and their career literally every single day. Making hard choices and living with the consequences is called being an adult.
Congratulations to Ceb on the birth of his child, I imagine there's no greater joy than that. However, OG should have taken precautions and registered a substitute on the roster. It's sad for Timado, Wisper, and Ari, who are not responsible for OG's lack of foresight, but rules are rules.
Why didn't they register a different roster with a standin if they were aware of the rules and knew Ceb would be out of commission for multiple days during the qualifier? The final date to submit the roster was June 3. Not particularly early.
Like yeah, it sucks, but it beats disqualification. This seems entirely on OG.
He probably didn't. Baby births are incredibly hard to predict. There's usually a 1-2 month period when the baby can be born healthy. There was probably a significant chance the baby wouldn't have been born this week.
You can't use substitutes it seems. The rule states registering 5 players. So they would have had to replace Ceb with their standin of choice before June 3 and submit that roster.
It's basically the old TI mentality of "we invite the players, not the teams".
But that was because some teams were abusing it by replacing members after they managed to qualify
This is a different situation, Ceb is not playing because real life issues and the sub player knows he will only be competing until Ceb can go back
PGL already allowed them one day with a stand-in, even though it wasn't in the rules. I understand it's tough for OG, and there should be rules for situations like this, but I believe PGL should stick to the rules from now on. If it were a smaller team, they probably wouldn't have even received one day with a stand-in.
A similar situation happened with 1win, where they were given an extension over the weekend (so their passport issue wasn't resolved as it was a weekend), because of which OG got the invite and earned the points to get the direct invite to Riyadh
Well in League of Legends teams usually have 6-man rosters that is a 5-man core linup + an official bench slot so standin issues never happen. Can we normalize this in dota?
I think teams wouldn’t want to pay 17% more salary… and some coaches are already really good players who still sub quite well, like xiao8 did for psg lgd, or aui for falcons. The most iconic example is ironically Ceb himself at ti8 lol
Rules are there for a reason. Perhaps they could have add in family emergency event exceptions.
Even Ammar said when he was in no name team back then (creepwave), rules were enforced to them not even additional 1min wait time was given for emergency. Unless rules do not applies to top famour team i guess.
Imagine during the world cup finals one of the teams has used up all their subs, they have another player injury and then the ref just goes “oh no you’re outta subs but i know how important this game is to you, i’ll give you one more sub as i know how important this is”.
If you think the rules should be changed then this is for you.
I mean this is understandable and all but if PGL allows one case means they would allow any other precedents. And then crystallis will go monkas because he might suddenly get sick due to food poisoning monkas
People really need to stop dumping on PGL. This is 100% OG's fault. PGL granted OG permission to use a stand-in for one day and that's more than fair. The rules are not perfect and I'm sorry if complications arose that prevent Ceb to continue playing or make it back in time, but this is a risk OG clearly accepted and chose to face. OG were very aware of the rules and potential consequences of having to DQ during their run, yet still decided to run the risk and play qualifiers with Ceb instead of finding another pos 5. If anything, they should take responsibility on their part and accept the outcome instead of whining on social media like bitches whilst trying to manipulate the outcome of this situation.
Why is OG thinking it speaks for "the Esports industry". That statement is so odd and just there to put pressure on PGL.
Please OG explain how sticking to the rulebook (after allowing an exception...) "shines a poor light on esports".
Not giving preferential treatment and then go cry on twitter.
Maybe go and have decend results and not have to qualify for everything?
Where were this discussion prior to qualifiers start?
Why it's there only after this literally happened? Or what, Ceb didn't expect that his child will be born during quals? What if Cebs child were about to be born during TI finals? Would Ceb just go for it to leave at the very last moment? Would OG blame Valve?
Bringing this out at the very last moment blaming other org is far from being professional.
I dont know if its still the rule, but at TI if a team member cant play even the team manager can sub in in certain cases if theres no one else from the team crew (like Slacks was on DC at TI6 or something). Strange thats not possible for the qualifiers to TI.
People asking "if it's an accident or someone broke their hands and then do the team also forfeit?" is missing the point slightly. I find that being aware of this potential issue and **accepted** PGL's proposed of 1 day substitute only, then hoping PGL to further accommodate it is very irresponsible of the organisation. You shouldn't be hoping for the best, you should be accounting for the possibility. The result is more the fact, they as an organisation decides to take the risk, and hope things turn out well.
Yes, baby doesn't out on a fixed date, everyone knows this, but everyone involved should also know there's a possibility of the baby clashing with the dates, and should have planned for that instead of "Let's accept the PGL 1 day sub approach and hope for the best". If after multiple appeal, PGL has only permitted a 1 day sub, then it's on OG to decide if they want to proceed with Ceb or not (appreciate how changing the player pre-tournament can be destabilising), and again, it's a risk that they decided to take on.
What it shines poor light on is that for OG only decide to put this into the public sphere of awareness only after it is clearly impacting them, and hoping for a public outcry to have this changed in their favour. PGL ain't saint, but OG's management also leaves a lot to be desired in this case.
As much as this does not align with perfect world of many, Ceb should have then not put his name in the roster since they were aware of the dates clashing with expected birth. It seems like Ceb/OG took a risk, and to many people's surprise, risk does not always outcome in your favor.
The thing is I don’t think exceptions can be made. People also sacrifice a lot for their jobs etc and have to work abroad when their kid is born too etc so it’s a choice.
In fact pgl already gave them an exception to have a 1 day standin, but it seems like it isn’t good enough for them. Imo if Ceb knew the due date was coming, he should’ve opted out from competing in this quals and be a coach instead this round or something.
Everybody sucks here.
OG agreed to rules they don't want to follow.
PGL is rigidly applying rules that are not in the interest of anyone.
Ceb is still French.
I just completely disagee with the move of posting in social media to gain sympathy WHEN the tournament is still ongoing. They’re trying to manipulate their way to get PGL to bend the rules for them. I know the rules is very backward but make a statement after the tournament.
If PGL enforces the rule of disqualification after playing with a stand in for another day, then accept it. Make the sympathy post AFTER the tournament. I just completely disagree with OG trying to manipulate the way by using the Dota fanbase. Appeal to change the rule moving forward.
I think the rule is in place to protect the individual players. Sometimes a team might feel it's in their interest to pressure a player into not playing and using a sub instead. Like Fnatic with Era at TI4 if I remember correctly.
Obviously that doesn't apply here but it does explain why the rule might be good in some situations.
Bend for og, you set a precedent for any other team. Ceb knew for months the estimates dates for both date of birth and qualifiers. This is entirely on ceb being a moron / irresponsible/ entitled
Valve gives pgl the green light to control everything related to TI qualifiers which means valve are okay with the rule book that pgl have stated and despite the fact that I feel for OG I do not believe that the rules should be changed for them because there's multiple people have said if it was literally any other team let's say one of the teams from the open qualifiers they wouldn't even be allowed a stand in
Well rules are rules and you're telling pgl being unprofessional because of your personal reasons isn't professional either. I'm a pgl hater myself but I don't feel like this is reasonable from OG.
Holy hell did they gave some chat AI an angry prompt to get this or actually type this out?
I understand the timing is frustrating but the entitlement that seeps through is rediculous. I love the OG TI8/9 story, for Gabe's sake get off the high horse.
Dota absolutely needs to adjust to a 6 man type roster with a registered bench player. This type of situation becomes immediately avoidable.
Plus you can swap players mid tournament or series depending on performance/strategy just like other sports.
If you can have a sub at TI itself when someone can't attend, then why would you not be able to have a sub during qualifiers. Rules are rules, but why are they written like that in the first place? Things in life happen and it's not too hard for admins to decide in particular cases when players' excuses are good enough (obviously giving birth is). That's even without mentioning that there would be no point to game the system and lie about your reasons, playing with stand-in is always worse.
Double standard is always the worst.
Pregnancy can be an exception, but if they bend for it, they need to make a clear rule on “what is the exception”.
If not, then I guess no exception is the best way.
Well, we will see how Valve is going to treat this one.
A team negotiates & accepts a change to the rules, then complains about it & tries to get it changed when implemented.
That would not come across well in most fields of work.
>That would not come across well in most fields of work.
unless your nerdy fanbase will start a virtual riot to save your ass from your shit decisions :D
Considering the fact that PGL already made **an exception** to let OG play with a stand-in for one day despite OG being fully aware of the consequences months prior, this just shows that **OG lacks integrity and professional sportsmanship**.
OG is notorious for **pressuring** the media and press to bend the rules in their favor, without regard to other teams and organizations.
It was a collective choice by OG as a team to **risk the qualifier** with Ceb while acknowledging this potential conflict **months in advance**.
It's unprofessional, selfish, and disrespectful of OG to act **entitled and unfair** to PGL and other players for their **lack of integrity and sportsmanship**.
P.S. It's like that **narcissistic relationship** where the narc pushes your boundaries and sees how far they can go. **Manipulative, entitled, and emotionally abusive**.
I get that it’s in the rules but I don’t really see the reason for the rule. A stand in doesn’t really benefit the team.
Regardless, the birth of his child is obviously more important than the qualifier
PGL hasn\`t done anything wrong. If you really want it, play the games. If not stay with your child. This isn\`t much of a choice. People just making fuss about a child birth.
This is me saying as a father of 2
Ceb knew very well that he might have to forfeit mid tournament, to support his wife and newborn. Birth can happen at any moment, the baby may even take its sweet until the qualifier ends, before it decides to come out.
Why is this being termed as a “family emergency”? There is NO emergency (I hope there is not and both mother and baby come out safe and sound), it’s a natural process and Cebs presence there to support his family is paramount. Why create drama around this? Why does PGL need allow a substitute for a team, when the team knew very well that one of their players will/might NOT be available for the entire qualifier run? If this was a completely unforeseen emergency, PGL might bend (circumvent around it rather) the rules as they see fit, but this was something the team and org knew well in advance.
How long is OG going to milk their 2 TI winner fan base for these nonchalant charades?
I'm sure the comments on this post will be balanced, well-thought, considering
i) they involve CEB/OG
ii) 90% of people commenting here have literally no idea how pregnancy/giving birth works in respect to timings, etc.
Rules are rules. If they're a problem, object to them before, not after. 1win lost their slot to OG because they were 4 hours late.
Congrats to Ceb but OG should be treated like any other team, not special.
The rule sucks. BUT. just play the qualifiers. Then spend months with your kid after it. If it’s been born.
Seeing the birth comes first. But after that is done. Play the games.
Well 2 things.
I think they should have raised the issue publicly or to valve earlier before the tournament started, especially after knowing of PGL's unsatisfactory ruling.
His child will be 3 months old during TI. He would need to boot camp etc. I think he shouldn't have competed in the first place.
What shines a poor light is when top members of your organisation accuse other teams of cheating, not issuing any apology when finding out the rules allowed the so called "cheating" in an email you didn't read. After all this they're now asking for rules to be changed to suit their needs 😂. Pathetic organisation
this is ogs and cebs fault. no way they didnt saw this coming, they knew the rules and still decided to play with ceb. If this had happened with another team, they would have been immediately disqualified but pgl still made an exception for OG
wow ceb has to actually make a choice about which is more important at the moment, his job with his 4 other coworkers or his family????!!??
also if the 1 day standin rule wasnt acceptable in the first place, why didnt OG try to negotiate/bargain for something different in the past 2 months instead of just agreeing?
Well the problem is that it’s not possible to have a team consist auf 6 players with one of them working as a fixed standin. That’s dumbest thing in pro dota2 since every other teamsport the roster is bigger than the actual team that plays in the game.
[My son will understand](https://external-preview.redd.it/NKdmsUerqT3w_LQumdyLv6QNSGfqXmVfYXnLja5XIng.jpg?auto=webp&s=c73bebec9a067590d7c8e8abd39180d44b6f14bb)
Other than the "Doom: deny her" pasta and "what are you ~~farming~~ *building* prophet? [Money](https://i.imgur.com/mjjW9P0.jpeg)", this is one of my favourite pub chat screenshots.
"I still think its your fault just because otherwise it is my fault and i dont like that"
I’m partial to ‘enough for do my power’ myself
Deny her (especially with the zoom) has to be my all-time fav, but "enough for do my power" is so joyfully stupid and so quintessentially "who cares, it'll be fun still".
Yet another timeless classic, indeed.
[what does a manta do](https://i.imgur.com/LuPjvuO.png)
It's especially funny because his avatar is Zeus. lmao
Lore-accurate Zeus behavior
PGL will not
ya but will your wife?
wasnt cebs wife somewhat displeased he went back to pro dota? Imagine if he misses the birth of his child lol
family more important than video game congratulations ceb
It is, but it sucks that the other 4 players get screwed over. If it is that big of a deal, boot Ceb and make them find someone to play in both the qualifier and TI (if they qualify). But really they should just let them use a standin for longer than 1 day
Yes this is the sad part, 1 dream fulfilled while 4 got destroyed
But those were the rules since the beginning and I don't think those rules are anything new. OG was aware of the potential issue since way before the roster deadline (as they mentioned), so it isn't even a surprise event.
Yeah, they should've scheduled conception and birth better. Maybe they can ask a refund for this baby or something, really bad service
Yeah, its not like there is a well defined time window when you can expect child birth.
Ikr? Why did this kid chose to be born today? Completely lack of awareness
Ceb clearly didnt check the game timer because he missed his pull lol
From what I read in this thread, it seems like OG told PGL well in advance and PGL agreed to one day's adjustment for a mother's first child. I think allowing a second day would be reasonable. A mother's first child usually takes a lot longer to give birth to than later children.
I mean, having a baby is not a 'surprise'. He surely knew months ahead that the baby is coming around this time but STILL they chose to enlist Ceb on the roster knowing that they are risking their Org's chance to go to TI. Don't get me wrong, family first above anything else but their decision making made this a lot more complicated than it should be. Edit: If it's like an emergency thing. Like if its really really really unexpected, unplanned, (accidents or unforeseen medical issues) then PGL should make the exception. I don't know on this situation though. Just my opinion.
I'm not defending Ceb/OG here - I agree with the sentiment that they should have taken issue with this rule at the onset, not now after they've already agreed to the rules by participating in the tournament - but I just wanted to clarify a bit. A "normal" pregnancy can end pretty commonly/safely (so not "an emergency thing") anytime from 8-9.5 months. And this is rendered even further imprecise by the fact that pregnancies are often counted from the last menstruation, which is obviously not completely accurate in terms of conception.
its not like he is playing alone or with 4 other millionaires, ceb is already a multi millionaire but his teammates aren't and this is their full time job and TI is a big potential payday
No sane person would make ceb play for money
PGL VS CEB ROUND 4 FIGHT
More like "OG trying to get special treatment for the 50th time by pressuring the community into pressuring PGL" lmao I think PGL is trash and you can clearly check that by my comment history But you Can't go around just creating exceptions for teams in the middle of the tournament. If the rules are trash they should've talked about the issue OPENLY and complained to valve and the community before the tournament or just changed players when they knew there was no choice. We all know if this was fucking Supream from Rest Farmers or a player for Mouz they would NEVER get any exceptions and CEB shouldn't get it as well. Your son is more important and he's doing the right thing. Just take the L and move on. Next time just create the issue before the tournament so maybe the trash rules get changed... Don't accept it then complain in the middle lol
The rules are simply poorly made, injuries and personal problems happens in every working field. Not being capable of taking few days off without hurting you team is just stupid.
The rules do suck, but it's generally impossible to get the community to get behind any positive change unless they can clearly see how it impacts someone they care for, or if someone they care for pushes for it independently.
Congrats, I hope Ceb's baby plays mid bc BZM clearly lost v power
As an OG fan I'm with PGL on this one, doesn't matter what tournament it was, just go enjoy the birth of your first child, like, come on, not take 1 or 2 days off, take a whole week to be with your wife, Jesus, this video game shit ain't more important than that. Sucks for the whole org and other players, but this is a no-brainer man. Putting the blame and calling out PGL is crazy, yes they are a shitty org but it's baffling to think they should do this for you. Yes it would be great if all parties agrees to reschedule this, but acting like the organizers are at fault is some mad crazy shit.
I dont like PGL either... they knew its going to be a risk/conflict and went on with the roster anyways. you cant compete if you want to be there for the arrival of your first child... this one is on OG/Ceb
hahahaha
I'm mixed on this. On one hand, assuming everything the post says is true, they did let them know about this issue in advance (back in May). My issue is, if they were not satisfied with the workaround given by PGL (1 day stand-in only), why not raise the issue then? If it was before the tournament started, I wouldn't mind there being community outcry to get the rule change for the better. Now that the tournament has already started, I don't know if it's good precedent to get them to change the rules to adjust for one team's circumstances mid tourney. The rule itself not allowing for a stand-in slot in general seems a bit weird, but given the tournament is already midway, idk if it would be fair to change it for OG. I think they should've been a lot more public/proactive with their grievances and this would've been a different story.
Hypothetically, what if a player drops dead after the roster lock. Are the 4 other players just screwed?
Does heaven/hell have wifi?
Yea SEA region has plenty access to wifi
Bro if someone is dead I don’t think anything else matters more than bereavement. In the case of Ceb, is there a precedent of PGL bending its rules for this particular instance? If none, then this will be the precedent. Other teams will cite this for future references. We have seen teams get forfeit because their visa got issued late yet TOs don’t care, how much more for someone who choose to be gone for a few days when he has the physical capacity (not mental/emotional/familial, to be clear)to play? It was odd for an org to have a stand-in during the qualifiers, and you do understand what it means, right? As the name suggests, this is to decide whether a team of 5 people “qualifies” for the tournament. No doubt about Ceb’s abilities, but if you have only 4 of them do the qualifiers and if they do qualify and that 1 other guy doesn’t go through the qualifiers and joins the mainstage, what does that look like?
In this hypothetical, 5th player CAN NOT play, in OG's case Ceb CAN play. I doubt PGL would treat both scenarios equally.
I mean back then I bet they didn't expect Cebs wife to go into labour in the 5 days of the qualifiers. Theres only so proactive you can be with a birth of a human, which anyone who has had a kid/family has had a kid knows, it just kind of happens at the worst time. 9 months of pregnancy is a kind of general time frame, I was 5 weeks early, and my sister was 2 weeks late, my niece was 2 whole months early. Shits kind of random, babies come out whenever they want to. Unless you schedule a c-section, but that may not have been a viable option for them for whatever reason
They should change it going forward, not this year though
So the no standin rule makes sense since you have been invited with the roster and you cannot simply swap for a let's say a player with a totally different hero pool that you know will give an advantage against another team. At the same time I don't think they can come up with an airtight rule here. I think they should allow the roster change and let immersion qualify for TI if they make it.
To be devils advocate here. Under extremely rare circumstances you would find a stand-in who is better than your current player AND who is clanless/teamless and/or doesnt play for the invited/qualified Teams already.
Have an exception for medical or family emergencies which I think this qualifies for both.
Really the issue is that in every other team sport, alternates exist that can be swapped in almost at will.
The thing is OG could have just done this from the start they could have registered a roster without Ceb since apparently they knew about this complication in advance, they didn't and now try to have the fans force PGL to give them special privileges
I'm not so sure about that. The variance on when the kid arrives is just so high. How do you justify to your players to play open qualifiers vs. getting seated in the upper bracket (that actually matters this time because not everybody starts from upper bracket) in case the baby is born in that 10percentile?
Nothing to be mixed about. They told PGL what may happen, PGL agreed to make an EXCEPTION if that happens, then OG agreed on the terms of that exception, now people want more. I hate PGL, but they should not let OG play another game with stand in
> The rule itself not allowing for a stand-in slot in general seems a bit weird If a team uses a stand-in for the last day of qualifiers only, who should get the invite to TI? The player that carried the team through to finals or the player that clinched the win? It is not an easy question, and I think it would be an even greater controversy if such a situation came to pass.
I don't know how it works but doesn't the team get the invite then they make a roster of the 5 main people and a set of stand ins?
Then we are back again in the old era where players are kicked after they qualify. There's a reason why dpc points back in the day were player based.
All 6 rofl, not a hard answer
To be fair, i'm with PGL on this. OG could replace Ceb if they know he will not play in Quals and will not go TI as consequences. Talon Replace Chyuan with Mikoto on 5th June so i guess PGL okay with replacing roster.
Not allowing a substitute player is weird/dumb indeed TOs usually follow the rulebook without applying some common sense, like Skitter(?) pissing in a bottle in his desk cause he was not allowed to leave his desk There is so many uncontrollable stuff that can happen to a person its stupid that theres a "no standin allowed" rule
Not arguing for or against that rule necessarily, but what happens if a player has a medical emergency? Like if topson breaks his arm tonight falling down the stairs or something are Tundra just disqualified on the spot?
Normal team sports have more than needed players for subs during a game. What's wrong with a dota2 team having 1 or 2 pre allocated players as a sub/standin? Plenty of teams have coaches that play a few games here and there for various reasons
Most of team that getting benched or subbed rather play on another team than being bench warmer? Can you recall any sub / benches player that stays on team? MC rather quit than getting benched by Tundra for examples.
Well, according to half these comments, "rules are rules", bye Topson
No no. Not bye topson. Bye the whole team.
The lack of humanity and empathy in the comments is disturbing to me. Does Dota make people this way or does it attract them?
That's why all team sports have stand in. They need to start doing that for dota 2. Put 6-7 player squad and you'll only know who's playing after the draft. Or on that day.
What's really weird about this is it's a 5 man game. If they're professional athletes, there should be an option for a sixth man to be on the bench. This would be like in, say, literally every other professional sport in the world. It's actually a little weird to me that 'rosters' are of exactly five players instead of, say, eight or so. That way the hero pools could be **far** larger. Might make the pro game actually more interesting.
Valve's rules for CS Majors Team roster must include 5 players ("Core Lineup"). Team roster may optionally include 1 coach. Team roster may optionally include 1 substitute player. The coach and substitute may be the same person.
Yeah never understood why dota is backwards regarding this. Like Riot allows it for Lol too.
Valorant and League have subs too. I've seen LCK (basically tier 1 DPC in Korea) League teams change a top and a mid laner after one game recently in a bo3 series, **2 subs**, at the highest level of League of Legends, at a LAN. A team sport without subs is just kind of weird. People slip on banana peels, people get sick, and people can have emergencies. Bare minimum a team should have one sub, in fact, they should be **required** to have a sub. Up to 3 subs or more max. Also for the people who are saying "well they'll just switch players with a better hero pool or playstyle against certain matchups". For one. I have yet to see a pro eSports team in any game, at any level, achieve consistent success doing this. Some Valorant teams tried it IIRC last year to no avail with an entire off season of practice. And second. If they do manage to make it work. Then it's fair play and increases strategical depth. It's not an individual eSport at the end of the day and it's the best team that wins. Having specialized subs is a team strategy. At the end of the day, eSports relies way too much on team chemistry for subbing players in/out to give an edge over a large sample size of games. It'll take years before anyone can pull it off. Unlike Basketball where you sub in prime Shaq on the most dogshit NBA team and he can use his sheer physical tools to get buckets and block shots with little help from his teammates. You can sub in prime Yatoro on a trash Dota team and he'll get bodied by any average tier 1 level team.
the thing is you have to pay the 6th guy to be ready, and who wants to pay a potential 6th guy that most likely will never play
OG
If you're in the position to win major tournies, it would def outweigh the cost of keeping a sub on the roster
why tf professional team game still dont have rules for subs ffs
In 20 years, Ceb can use this story to his son based on how well their relationship going. Either saying he cost him millions of dollars and a third title, or sacrificing the potential third win for his beloved son.
If all parties were aware why didn't og just compete with an alternative? If you signed up knowing the rules and a contingency issues arises obviously you're at fault. In an ideal world this should not happen. But you knew it could you knew the rules. Whats the point now
babies tend not to arrive on schedule in fact they'll always arrive at the most inconvenient time
then the logical option is not compete with ceb.
Not really, it is just 4 days qualifiers, baby could be even scheduled for like another month. What really bugs me in this drama, is that in 2024 Dota 2 teams are not allowed to have one registered standin, especially for Valve event. Imagine Ramzes having a shower, flipping over slippery floor and breaking his arm, no subs, Tundra is out. Let's be realistic here OG is done here, such a bad luck for others and good day for Ceb lol.
The reason is probably because a team like OG or Tundra could probably hire a 6th, while couldn't.
A random stack can find a random who is high ranked who is willing to be listed as their sub, especially if the sub can be picked post open qualifiers. They don't need to hire one as they are a random stack, the main roster isn't hired.
The logical option is that esports get out of the Stone Age and have a simple paternity/maternity policy like every other sport. If you want to be taken seriously as a sport you should probably not disqualify teams because someone is having a kid.
I mean Rudy gobert missed a game in the nba playoffs because his child was born just a month ago
I can't find the rules but they said in the statement they had until June 3 to decide the final roster, and OG took the gamble. They knew the risks and what the rules did or did not allow. Turning to the public to get leverage is lame. It's no different from the 1win visa situation and 1win had to forfeit the spot back then.
It says in the rulebook that teams that are invited to closed qualifier cannot change their squad.
> What’s the point now Well, they probably want to use their fans as tools to pressure PGL, as much as I like OG I hope PGL stick to the rules, they shouldn’t be given a preferential treatment
Didn't CEB name-drop some employee once that got such hate that the org had to punish OG over it? I recall there being something like that
Yeah, that for me is the number one reason why now PGL cannot budge. As a tournament organizer you can't allow yourself to be bullied and blackmailed like this.
Blackmail?
But did they have a say? It says no roster changes to teams invited directly to qualifiers. So basicly the team needs to gamble on june 3rd if they would rather play open qualifiers with a standin or if they risk it with ceb? And the time to decide that is basicly the difference from pgl messaging og that they are invited to the day they announce the invited teams?
I understand it's a tough situation but why bend the rules for them? If it's some unknown team then they get nothing. Now they are taking it publicly to get people mad at them. Edit: let's not forget 1win lost their spot which was given to OG for being 4 hours late on their visa. OG was fine with the rules then
PGL shouldn't bend the rules, but IMO they should amend them for the future. There is no reason why coaches can't be used as a substitute.
Yeah but iG have two coaches. Some teams have no coaches.
It was already bent for them! I mean the rules clearly state no stand ins allowed. A compromise was reached but now they want more. On paper, I agree there has to be some wiggle room. I say implement the changes next season. Let OG deal with this according to the letter of the existing rulebook and under the terms of their compromise agreement.
OG is just leveraging their fanbase to "seek justice" when in fact, they're just entitled karen asking for exception. they know full well the delivery might clash, yet, they still lock in ceb. it's not PGL's problem to solve.
Bingo. They knew it might be an issue -- even with a 1 day stand in -- in May, but didn't raise the issue and accepted the solution then. Any smaller team would simply be SOL. OG using their name and fans to try and bully TOs into getting their way is getting really old, even if PGL can be pretty crappy sometimes.
they hope their fans will riot enough to make PGL change their mind
>Edit: let's not forget 1win lost their spot which was given to OG for being 4 hours late on their visa. OG was fine with the rules then This. OG is trying to create public outrage to get rules bent in their favor, yet had no problem with rules being forced upon other teams when it meant OG was benefitting from it. This hypocrisy is what makes their Tweet kind of embarrassing, regardless of whether Ceb's reason of absence is justified or not.
Yeah, Dude signed up, knowing the consequences, already having a rule change to allow a stand in for one day. It might sound harsh but also a series is normally at most, what 3 hours? Also pretty funny to me that he wants to be there for the birth, to support his family, but he's going to take out a full month for TI shortly after? Is he playing in Riyadh? So missing that time. Everyone saying "So he should pick between his career and having a child", yes. Esports isn't any different from a real job. Honestly, I'm sort of tired of players signing up for rules then complaining about them afterwards.
To be fair in a real job ceb would get paternity leave, someone or some people would fill in for him while he was away, then he would retake his place in his job when his leave was over. So actually the way these rules are set up isn’t like a real job
its not a job, its a tournament. Federer or Nadal wont get an exception to postpone a tennis match coz he is having a baby on that day
Not always and not everywhere. And as far as I read it, OG had an option to send him for a paternity leave, essentially declaring a different player before a deadline, while also accepting that this player would then attend the main event instead of Ceb.
And in real sports players miss games for family reasons all the time and substitutes are allowed.
Some of these comments are kinda crazy and shows how much people value dota vs irl. Brother give them ability to swap a player temporarily he is having a kid, what’s the issue? Emergencies happen, shit occurs, if a player gets hit by a car and is in the hospital, do they also have 1 day to comeback? Players aren’t npcs, they are real people with lives outside of dota, shit happens and there are better ways of making it fair and by the book then saying no. OG or not OG, Ceb or not Ceb, this is some bullshit and leveraging OGs popularity and love for Ceb is a good way to shine on the problem. Don’t be fucking mad
I think most people here are sympathetic, but moreso confused why this discussion is only happening now that it's going wrong and not before the qualifier starts. If they were having these stand in discussions before and were told no beyond the one day, it makes no sense why the PR statement only goes out when they might get screwed over. They, according to their own statement, had foresight on this one. It's a very valid discussion to be had, and the rules probably needed a change. But a last second rules change from mid tournament outcry is a very troubling precedent, whereas "hey maybe we should allow teams a pre designated stand in player in case of emergencies" is a very reasonable ask pre tournament. If we did this before the tourney starts it's PGL being the devil who don't value Ceb having a child. But right now it's OG wanting a mid tournament accommodation which is a bad idea from a competitive integrity standpoint. They've somehow turned a very reasonable request into something a lot more complicated
Point of why not blast about it and talk about it before the event is super fair, there is not a real good defense, but if it’s something they have been trying to get done actively since I can understand why( only if).
"Ceb should not have to choose." That's correct. He shouldn't have to choose. It isn't even an option. Forfeit the qualifiers. lol
This sucks for the org and players, but OG have a long history of putting out statements like this in hopes that their fans will go harass the admins and it seems they are doing it again this statement is completely irresponsible and it reads like a 15 year old created it. OG expects the rules to be changed for them, but when Alliance used a coach in games like the rules allowed they cried about it.
So basically OG are hypocrites. Im fine with rule changes but should be next year. No reason to bend now
OG also didnt say anything when ESL stole 1win slot and gave it to them
At least it seems that they read the mail this time
Family is always more important than career. You can always go pub it up, TI happens every year, but the birth of your first child happens only once. Congrats to Ceb. That said, definitely must suck for the other 4 players who'd be looking forward to TI. Ceb shouldn't be forced to choose between family or career, especially when OG had informed PGL of this earlier. Let's see if Valve would make an exception or any changes.
Why should there be an exception for certain teams? If there is an exception then a small Tier 1 or 2 team should also be allowed to replace their not-as-good player with Sumail or someone else, as you know, he somehow got a papercut on his face and he cant compete now. There should be an exception for this as well.
They are arguing that the rules are archaic and should be changed for everyone, not just here
they should have argued about these before they agreed to them. Now they are just trying to push their fuck up to the community for a reaction. Risky, irresponsible and selfish decision, if they wanna play the "adult card" of responsibilities outside professional life, they should act like adults all the way.
If they knew the rules, and knew the dates might clash months ago, they just shouldn't have signed Ceb. Simple as that. It's irresponsible of Ceb to put other teammates in such a situation
People are forced to choose between family and their career literally every single day. Making hard choices and living with the consequences is called being an adult.
When OG benefits from rules it’s great, when they get shafted it’s bad kekw
When others benefited from the rules (that everyone could use if they read the mail) it was wholly unacceptable and dishonest lol
actually it's really satisfying seeing them cry now
Congratulations to Ceb on the birth of his child, I imagine there's no greater joy than that. However, OG should have taken precautions and registered a substitute on the roster. It's sad for Timado, Wisper, and Ari, who are not responsible for OG's lack of foresight, but rules are rules.
Could they even have registered a substitute? Why would they not have registered a substitute if they could?
Why didn't they register a different roster with a standin if they were aware of the rules and knew Ceb would be out of commission for multiple days during the qualifier? The final date to submit the roster was June 3. Not particularly early. Like yeah, it sucks, but it beats disqualification. This seems entirely on OG.
He probably didn't. Baby births are incredibly hard to predict. There's usually a 1-2 month period when the baby can be born healthy. There was probably a significant chance the baby wouldn't have been born this week.
Could they even register substitutes?
You can't use substitutes it seems. The rule states registering 5 players. So they would have had to replace Ceb with their standin of choice before June 3 and submit that roster. It's basically the old TI mentality of "we invite the players, not the teams".
But that was because some teams were abusing it by replacing members after they managed to qualify This is a different situation, Ceb is not playing because real life issues and the sub player knows he will only be competing until Ceb can go back
the rules are there to protect the player, there are many instance where team just change their roster after qualifying to TI etc.
Because they can go to twitter and appeal for fan outrage instead.
PGL already allowed them one day with a stand-in, even though it wasn't in the rules. I understand it's tough for OG, and there should be rules for situations like this, but I believe PGL should stick to the rules from now on. If it were a smaller team, they probably wouldn't have even received one day with a stand-in. A similar situation happened with 1win, where they were given an extension over the weekend (so their passport issue wasn't resolved as it was a weekend), because of which OG got the invite and earned the points to get the direct invite to Riyadh
Well in League of Legends teams usually have 6-man rosters that is a 5-man core linup + an official bench slot so standin issues never happen. Can we normalize this in dota?
I think teams wouldn’t want to pay 17% more salary… and some coaches are already really good players who still sub quite well, like xiao8 did for psg lgd, or aui for falcons. The most iconic example is ironically Ceb himself at ti8 lol
I think teams should have an official bench or something sort as well
why cant coach play as standin .. he is already getting paid
Rules are there for a reason. Perhaps they could have add in family emergency event exceptions. Even Ammar said when he was in no name team back then (creepwave), rules were enforced to them not even additional 1min wait time was given for emergency. Unless rules do not applies to top famour team i guess.
Some teams are more equal than others, and that's how it's always been
OG benefitted from this shit when they took 1win's slot. Now theyre going to whine when it's happening to them.
Imagine during the world cup finals one of the teams has used up all their subs, they have another player injury and then the ref just goes “oh no you’re outta subs but i know how important this game is to you, i’ll give you one more sub as i know how important this is”. If you think the rules should be changed then this is for you.
I mean this is understandable and all but if PGL allows one case means they would allow any other precedents. And then crystallis will go monkas because he might suddenly get sick due to food poisoning monkas
People really need to stop dumping on PGL. This is 100% OG's fault. PGL granted OG permission to use a stand-in for one day and that's more than fair. The rules are not perfect and I'm sorry if complications arose that prevent Ceb to continue playing or make it back in time, but this is a risk OG clearly accepted and chose to face. OG were very aware of the rules and potential consequences of having to DQ during their run, yet still decided to run the risk and play qualifiers with Ceb instead of finding another pos 5. If anything, they should take responsibility on their part and accept the outcome instead of whining on social media like bitches whilst trying to manipulate the outcome of this situation.
Why is OG thinking it speaks for "the Esports industry". That statement is so odd and just there to put pressure on PGL. Please OG explain how sticking to the rulebook (after allowing an exception...) "shines a poor light on esports". Not giving preferential treatment and then go cry on twitter. Maybe go and have decend results and not have to qualify for everything?
Where were this discussion prior to qualifiers start? Why it's there only after this literally happened? Or what, Ceb didn't expect that his child will be born during quals? What if Cebs child were about to be born during TI finals? Would Ceb just go for it to leave at the very last moment? Would OG blame Valve? Bringing this out at the very last moment blaming other org is far from being professional.
rules for thee not for me. they signed up for that knowing the rules.
OG is always mad and tweeting some bullshit when they don't get special treatment huh.
I dont know if its still the rule, but at TI if a team member cant play even the team manager can sub in in certain cases if theres no one else from the team crew (like Slacks was on DC at TI6 or something). Strange thats not possible for the qualifiers to TI.
People asking "if it's an accident or someone broke their hands and then do the team also forfeit?" is missing the point slightly. I find that being aware of this potential issue and **accepted** PGL's proposed of 1 day substitute only, then hoping PGL to further accommodate it is very irresponsible of the organisation. You shouldn't be hoping for the best, you should be accounting for the possibility. The result is more the fact, they as an organisation decides to take the risk, and hope things turn out well. Yes, baby doesn't out on a fixed date, everyone knows this, but everyone involved should also know there's a possibility of the baby clashing with the dates, and should have planned for that instead of "Let's accept the PGL 1 day sub approach and hope for the best". If after multiple appeal, PGL has only permitted a 1 day sub, then it's on OG to decide if they want to proceed with Ceb or not (appreciate how changing the player pre-tournament can be destabilising), and again, it's a risk that they decided to take on. What it shines poor light on is that for OG only decide to put this into the public sphere of awareness only after it is clearly impacting them, and hoping for a public outcry to have this changed in their favour. PGL ain't saint, but OG's management also leaves a lot to be desired in this case.
As much as this does not align with perfect world of many, Ceb should have then not put his name in the roster since they were aware of the dates clashing with expected birth. It seems like Ceb/OG took a risk, and to many people's surprise, risk does not always outcome in your favor.
lmao can you imagine when he gets into an argument with his kid. "I fucking dropped out of TI qualis for you, you ungrateful little shit."
The thing is I don’t think exceptions can be made. People also sacrifice a lot for their jobs etc and have to work abroad when their kid is born too etc so it’s a choice. In fact pgl already gave them an exception to have a 1 day standin, but it seems like it isn’t good enough for them. Imo if Ceb knew the due date was coming, he should’ve opted out from competing in this quals and be a coach instead this round or something.
Everybody sucks here. OG agreed to rules they don't want to follow. PGL is rigidly applying rules that are not in the interest of anyone. Ceb is still French.
ceb such a drama fiend even having a kid's gotta have some drama what a guy
They read the mail!
I just completely disagee with the move of posting in social media to gain sympathy WHEN the tournament is still ongoing. They’re trying to manipulate their way to get PGL to bend the rules for them. I know the rules is very backward but make a statement after the tournament. If PGL enforces the rule of disqualification after playing with a stand in for another day, then accept it. Make the sympathy post AFTER the tournament. I just completely disagree with OG trying to manipulate the way by using the Dota fanbase. Appeal to change the rule moving forward.
Remember when Ceb set his Twitter followers on a PGL admin (even though she was in the right) here's your karma
Maybe they haven't read emails again. This statement is rage bait on PGL instead of taking accountability.
Hospital's have good internet connections, right?
you don't get an inherent benefit from running with a sub, so no clue why this rule is in place honestly
To protect players getting kicked mid qualifiers due to petty, unfair reasons and so on.
Probably so that a team can't hire an 'upgrade' to qualify, and go to TI being weaker with their 'real' player.
Just make it so you can only use your coach as a substitute and that will fix 99% of the potential abuse.
Yeah, or sign up with designated subs like how LoL does it.
.. Why wouldn't they just go to TI with that player?
Dunno, maybe he has a kid coming during ti.
It's been abused in the past where teams need a "substitute" because they kicked someone and use fake excuse which is probably why it exists.
I think the rule is in place to protect the individual players. Sometimes a team might feel it's in their interest to pressure a player into not playing and using a sub instead. Like Fnatic with Era at TI4 if I remember correctly. Obviously that doesn't apply here but it does explain why the rule might be good in some situations.
Probably to prevent drama and massive roster changes once a team is already qualified
Bend for og, you set a precedent for any other team. Ceb knew for months the estimates dates for both date of birth and qualifiers. This is entirely on ceb being a moron / irresponsible/ entitled
dont forget 1win were 4 - 5 hours late for visa and og fans were fine with rules being there for a reason
you can improve your current roster with players that didn\`t qualify for TI so it makes sense
Valve gives pgl the green light to control everything related to TI qualifiers which means valve are okay with the rule book that pgl have stated and despite the fact that I feel for OG I do not believe that the rules should be changed for them because there's multiple people have said if it was literally any other team let's say one of the teams from the open qualifiers they wouldn't even be allowed a stand in
Well rules are rules and you're telling pgl being unprofessional because of your personal reasons isn't professional either. I'm a pgl hater myself but I don't feel like this is reasonable from OG.
Rumour has it Ceb's wife got pregnant on the night Ceb played 15 pubs in a day.
xdd
Holy hell did they gave some chat AI an angry prompt to get this or actually type this out? I understand the timing is frustrating but the entitlement that seeps through is rediculous. I love the OG TI8/9 story, for Gabe's sake get off the high horse.
Dota absolutely needs to adjust to a 6 man type roster with a registered bench player. This type of situation becomes immediately avoidable. Plus you can swap players mid tournament or series depending on performance/strategy just like other sports.
So many trash takes in this thread from people who’ve never worked a job before
If you can have a sub at TI itself when someone can't attend, then why would you not be able to have a sub during qualifiers. Rules are rules, but why are they written like that in the first place? Things in life happen and it's not too hard for admins to decide in particular cases when players' excuses are good enough (obviously giving birth is). That's even without mentioning that there would be no point to game the system and lie about your reasons, playing with stand-in is always worse.
I'm with PGL on this.
Ceb have your kid and enjoy bro. OG get over it guys, the rules are fair and they apply to everyone. Acceptance is a good things Bois. Namaste
Double standard is always the worst. Pregnancy can be an exception, but if they bend for it, they need to make a clear rule on “what is the exception”. If not, then I guess no exception is the best way. Well, we will see how Valve is going to treat this one.
A team negotiates & accepts a change to the rules, then complains about it & tries to get it changed when implemented. That would not come across well in most fields of work.
>That would not come across well in most fields of work. unless your nerdy fanbase will start a virtual riot to save your ass from your shit decisions :D
Considering the fact that PGL already made **an exception** to let OG play with a stand-in for one day despite OG being fully aware of the consequences months prior, this just shows that **OG lacks integrity and professional sportsmanship**. OG is notorious for **pressuring** the media and press to bend the rules in their favor, without regard to other teams and organizations. It was a collective choice by OG as a team to **risk the qualifier** with Ceb while acknowledging this potential conflict **months in advance**. It's unprofessional, selfish, and disrespectful of OG to act **entitled and unfair** to PGL and other players for their **lack of integrity and sportsmanship**. P.S. It's like that **narcissistic relationship** where the narc pushes your boundaries and sees how far they can go. **Manipulative, entitled, and emotionally abusive**.
I get that it’s in the rules but I don’t really see the reason for the rule. A stand in doesn’t really benefit the team. Regardless, the birth of his child is obviously more important than the qualifier
Sounds like OG is to blame.
PGL hasn\`t done anything wrong. If you really want it, play the games. If not stay with your child. This isn\`t much of a choice. People just making fuss about a child birth. This is me saying as a father of 2
OG are so unlikeable
Know from May, plan nothing, be mad when consequences hit. 👌
Ceb knew very well that he might have to forfeit mid tournament, to support his wife and newborn. Birth can happen at any moment, the baby may even take its sweet until the qualifier ends, before it decides to come out. Why is this being termed as a “family emergency”? There is NO emergency (I hope there is not and both mother and baby come out safe and sound), it’s a natural process and Cebs presence there to support his family is paramount. Why create drama around this? Why does PGL need allow a substitute for a team, when the team knew very well that one of their players will/might NOT be available for the entire qualifier run? If this was a completely unforeseen emergency, PGL might bend (circumvent around it rather) the rules as they see fit, but this was something the team and org knew well in advance. How long is OG going to milk their 2 TI winner fan base for these nonchalant charades?
I'm sure the comments on this post will be balanced, well-thought, considering i) they involve CEB/OG ii) 90% of people commenting here have literally no idea how pregnancy/giving birth works in respect to timings, etc.
They are pretty well thought. OG/Ceb took a risk, it didn't pay out. It happens.
What is unacceptable is actually OG’s stance on this. Should have been named OK, Outrageous Karens
OG (ceb) and wanting special treatment name a more iconic duo.
Rules are rules. If they're a problem, object to them before, not after. 1win lost their slot to OG because they were 4 hours late. Congrats to Ceb but OG should be treated like any other team, not special.
The rule sucks. BUT. just play the qualifiers. Then spend months with your kid after it. If it’s been born. Seeing the birth comes first. But after that is done. Play the games.
This is why Dota 2 needs a mobile client! I played in a TFT tournament while my wife was in labor.
Well 2 things. I think they should have raised the issue publicly or to valve earlier before the tournament started, especially after knowing of PGL's unsatisfactory ruling. His child will be 3 months old during TI. He would need to boot camp etc. I think he shouldn't have competed in the first place.
They get a standin for a day, dont they? What else do they need? Ofc im biased for navi but rUle iS RUlE! Hahaha
What shines a poor light is when top members of your organisation accuse other teams of cheating, not issuing any apology when finding out the rules allowed the so called "cheating" in an email you didn't read. After all this they're now asking for rules to be changed to suit their needs 😂. Pathetic organisation
this is ogs and cebs fault. no way they didnt saw this coming, they knew the rules and still decided to play with ceb. If this had happened with another team, they would have been immediately disqualified but pgl still made an exception for OG
wow ceb has to actually make a choice about which is more important at the moment, his job with his 4 other coworkers or his family????!!?? also if the 1 day standin rule wasnt acceptable in the first place, why didnt OG try to negotiate/bargain for something different in the past 2 months instead of just agreeing?
Well the problem is that it’s not possible to have a team consist auf 6 players with one of them working as a fixed standin. That’s dumbest thing in pro dota2 since every other teamsport the roster is bigger than the actual team that plays in the game.
OG were denied the option to participate to the Qualifiers with a standin despite requesting it weeks before they started.