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Gohan not wanting to be a fighter makes perfect sense, even if he has insane potential and his character arc through the series is (for Dragonball at least) realistic.
Toriyama started the Buu saga with the intention to make Gohan the main character, but then backed down and brought Goku back because the man has no attention span
I have actually come to terms with this fact and because of it I respect adult Gohan a lot more now because if it, but straight up the great saiyaman stuff was weird and the fact that they kept doing him dirty with little to no reason at all makes me sad. It’s like the Yamcha situation where one scene happened that was supposed to be terrifying and shocking was turned into a joke and cause of that Yamcha’s entire character is ruined.
My theory is that Gohan got hit with PTSD (probably from the Ginyu force) which is why his Saiyaman phase even exists. Other than that though, Gohan’s remarkably well adjusted considering he’s quite literally had to fight for his life since his childhood
This seems like it may be canon. In Dragonball FighterZ, Krillin notes at one point that the Ginyu Force left such an impression on Gohan that he ended up creating this persona that relies on poses. It's not framed as PTSD, but...it probably should be.
Android 21 was only in that game, until a scene in Super Hero shows that she exists in this continuity, too. They don't go into it or say if they actually met her or anything, though.
Gohan not wanting to be a fighter makes sense. Gohan shirking responsibility to help the Earth and Universe 7 when they need him does not make sense to his character.
I will say that I wish Gohan didn't go through the same basic character arc 3 times in a row. I think at this point, Toriyama should retire him. I'm fine with him being a family man. He either needs a new character arc, or to be retired.
Yeah this is my problem with it.
I like badass, high potential Gohan who kicks ass
I also don’t have a problem with goofy, dislikes fighting, didn’t live up to his potential and prefers living a regular life Gohan.
I don’t like that we have to see him constantly bounce between the two and have the same arc on repeat. He genuinely feels like 2 different characters at this point.
Yeah, it's kinda obvious Toriyama just doesn't have anything new for Gohan, and that's totally fine. If he doesn't know what to do with him, then he should just stop trying, at least until he can figure out something new. I liked Gohan's arc in the Cell Saga, I didn't need to see it repeated in the Buu Saga, the ToP, and DBS:SH, complete with completely unoriginally rehashing his power up and giving him one of the dumbest transformations ever just to put him back in the limelight, until he gets shoved to the side for 3 arcs and has to do it all over again.
I like family man scholar Gohan, I like badass warrior Gohan, and I think it *could* be interesting if Toriyama was able to blend those disparate versions together, but the way he's tried to mix them just doesn't work. Toriyama realized Gohan wasn't the right character to be the protag in the Buu Saga, so he should just retire him like half the other Z fighters. Krillin gets to be a cop and a family man, Tien gets to have his own martial arts school, Yamaha gets to be depressed and lonely, just like he should be. Everyone is able to do their own thing and be happy where they are, except for Gohan. He's the only one that has this schizophrenic character. He's the only one that's constantly getting resurrected to redo his highlights, then immediately dumped again.
This is a fact lmao. Tien and Yamaha were both options for ToP but they went for Roshi. Plus Roshi scaled to early DB Piccolo. What I’m trying to say is, Prime Roshi is the strongest human we’ve ever seen
Because this is on the topic of TOP I'm just going to put this here: Why didn't they bring back Cell and do the Saiyan God ritual with him and Gohan. That would have given them 4 Saiyan Gods to work with as opposed to only 2. Stack that with Golden Freeza and they would have had a stacked team even without Buu.
I believe they say souls move on from other world and get reincarnated, for example uub. I believe it was mentioned friezas soul was so mad it refused to move on and was persistent to staying in hell. So maybe cells soul was gone and unable to come back idk just a guess
Why hasn’t anyone just said to the dragon “I wish super powerful assholes will stop trying to destroy the universe so we don’t have to fight them anymore”?
Didn’t they have the option for shenron to stop them but they chose not to? Or am i thinking of something else
btw my hot take is Kami slams Raditz on his neck
Yeah but everyone who thinks that and is smart enough to get the dragon balls unfortunately gets betrayed and locked in the hyperbolic time chamber for 1000 years by someone stronger than that smart ass nerd
Lol true. But in fairness the only dragon all locator we know about is the one bulma has. She’s kinda got a monopoly on eternal dragon wishes. So they’d have to betray her, and that would incur the wrath of vegeta. This should be the next arc.
I'm pretty sure it can only grant wishes the dragon is capable of. Shenron is the weakest. Parunga is stronger and the golden dragon is the strongest.
If you asked the gold one it could possibly do it. But the others can't because someone like Moro is way stronger than both of them.
The manga addresses this. It’s hilarious. Bulma suggests they have three years to find Gero before the androids activate. Goku & Vegeta tell her she’s nuts. Trunks just gave them a challenge and they want to accept.
I've always enjoyed the dub better, but nowadays, everyone dunks on the dub when it's decent to good after Freeza arc. It's as good as it can be during the Boo arc, GT, and OG DB.
Gogeta needs the fusees power level to be identical while Vegito doesnt.
Vegito will always have a very slight advantage at any given time because one of Goku or Vegeta don't need to slightly lower his ki for the fusion. It is virtually insignificant? Yes, but it still exist.
That’s because Gogeta was up against mindless beasts while Vegito was up against people who could speak to. Goku and Vegeta weren’t talking to Broly anymore when they saw that he lost control. So neither Gogeta nor Vegito would’ve talked to him either.
The janemba movie isn’t canon but if you were take to that in, then you should take in GT and DBH. In GT, Gogeta acted exactly like Vegito did against Buu which is because they needed to wait for their opponent to do something before killing them. And in DBH, we that Xeno Vegito was serious in his SSJ4 form and Vegito was serious against Cumber, who was basically mindless. Other than that, they only acted differently based on the circumstances.
I actually really like Kefla. I like having a super saiyan girl badass.
Also, would love for Vegeta to actually visit planet Vegeta in the other universe like he said he was going to
kefla is fine, i just find it dumb how much they dumbed down super saiyan when the other universe saiyans showed up. like, no saiyan in either universe transforms for thousands of years, one pure hearted one does after errupting in anger when his best friend died, and then the prince of all saiyans, vegita, managed to do it to through sheer force of his will to be as strong as goku. then children started mastering it but even then it was still treated as something that was hard to do and required training. and then in dragon ball super suddnely all you need to do is focus on a fuzzy feeling in your back? thats the whole trick? and suddenly the number of super saiyans in existence goes up by like 33%?
Yeah because they got to SSJ2 in a day and somehow forced Goku to go SSJG to beat them and then Kefla made him go UI and they don't have any God Ki or anything, they're just Saiyans from U6
Those two got way more screen time than they deserved. Written poorly, dialogue was trash tier, trivialized the trauma goku needed to go super saiyan by changing into some fuzzy feeling you need to focus on. All for what, the annoying sad one to turn into Broly? They were the worst characters of the tournament of power to me.
I don’t mind Kefla aside from disrespecting Goku as if he’s not the entire reason you know Saiyans can be that powerful, and the power jump for her was insanely ridiculous… like the way she jumps in power was like the writers were parodying themselves
Buu should’ve fought in the ToP
Hercule could’ve mind-gamed Buu to make him fight serous, and it would’ve been so much more interesting than, say, Tien (and I say that as a Tien fan)
The swap from technique to raw power being valued more was a bad one. I like most OG DB fights more than the Z and Super ones (on average) as a result of this
Literally just posted the game before finding this comment. Raw power decides fights in DBZ and Super 99% of the time. Technique or "genius fighting" matters nothing compared to just having a bit more power.
Zamasu is basically a rich person who hates poor people for struggling and decided that instead of actually doing anything to help them he'd just wipe them out since they're inferior to him for being born as a mortal.
Dub> Sub
I just can’t get the same vibes with sub, imo characters just sound bland, whereas in dub their voices fit soo well, like for example whis having this gentleman voice, vegeta really having this pissed voice that is needed, even frieza has a more fitting voice
I think Gohan could possibly be stronger than Goku BUT…I still think Goku would beat him in a fair fight. Think about it. Goku is a fighting genius. He has decades of fights under his belt and trains with a literal god and a angel. Raw power can only go so far.
Super Saiyan was supposed to be a mythical and legendary form, and anything beyond Ssj2, which I can’t really see as a wholly different form than Ssj, was just a grab at more content because they needed to keep “raising the stakes”. Although cool, ssjg, ssgss, and “beast mode” are dumb concepts in my opinion.
Goku in Super has reached that stage in life where everything is either “whatever” or “that’s a problem”. Where as the serious issues tend to actually get his attention. I like to call it “emotionally stable”.
I feel Goku in Super is just more relaxed in general, my guy achieved levels of power only known by deities and is friends with said deities. Unless shit hits the fan, he doesn't need to worry about much.
He's way more laid back and casual about things in the epilogue of the original manga (casually drops a "Imma live with this kid for a while" and flies away) and I think Super Goku is good enough at bridging this gap.
And in the last moment fight between Goku, Frieza and 17 with Jiren, we can see that when he is serious and not messing around. Bro even scolded Frieza to stop playing and thinking he alone can do things.
Goku has reached a point in his development that I like to call Folklore Hero status. As a character, he doesn't really have any room to develop, and what little there is is often just retreads of previous arcs. Instead, their contribution to the story becomes how other characters and the world react and change because of them.
For example, Goku is pretty much unchanged as a character by the time the ToP ends compared to how he was when it started. He has a new form, sure, but less energy is put into how he got there and how he feels about it, than there is in how everyone else reacts and adapts to it. Meanwhile, Hit (moreso in the U6 tourney, but still) Jiren and Kefla's arcs are all centered around how they change following their interactions and fights with Goku.
I think comedy is more important to dragon ball overall through the series than action, though I would say they are close. Like og had a lot of gag like content I miss, though I'm glad super leaned into it some
i would like to counterargument because, yes ssg was a half decent fight but beerus is a lazy ass mf and since we've seen in top he has matered UI the best out of all the GoD's and is for that matter not training and just sleeping he could easily train to catch back up, we should also not forget that vegeta was trainig with beerus and developed ultraEgo which should be the equivalent to UI so it could be said beerus knows both Ui and how UltraEgo was made sincd its based on the GoD hakai, i think that because of this beerus should still be stronger
Nah, Whis said Beerus couldn't Master UI so at most all he has is UI omen. Even so, he couldnt hold it for long because his mind is built on destruction.
Kid Trunks too
they’re like 5 year old super saiyans, that’s fucking insane
personally i don’t think they should’ve gone super saiyan, but since they did it should be addressed just how impressive those two are, instead they’re relegated to kid shenanigans except for Gotenks fighting Buu (which really was also mostly kid shenanigans)
Dragon Ball Super is no less canon than GT, because the canon between series never made sense to begin with, AND THAT'S FINE.
Let me clarify first by saying I am NOT claiming this to defend GT, I like Super a lot more. But Super directly contradicts the canon of the end of Z. They specifically say that nothing happened between Kid Buu's defeat and the Martial Arts Tournament.
Z also contradicts the canon of the original series in several occasions, most blatantly with the world in Z being unaware of superpowered beings, when less than a decade earlier Master Roshi was blowing up the moon with laser beams on live television.
And that's perfectly fine. Dragon Ball as a whole never tried very hard to maintain continuity between series, so it doesn't make sense for us fans to argue about it.
I have to assume that retconning it will eventually be inevitable, if they haven’t done it already.
But that doesn’t change my point: the original end of Z will always exist as part of DBZ, and any retcon will be part of the DBS canon. Treating each series as separate and enjoying them as such seems like the most sensible option to me.
Beast mode is fucking stupid and looks like a fan transformation that a 13 year old made. (I was that 13 year old and the transformation was for Naruto not even Dragonball.)
Zamasu and the whole arc about his dumbass was stupid. Goku black is stupid, Zamasu is stupid, all of it is stupid, how it started and Future trunks new moves and power up was the only good thing, everything else except for the Vegito fight was absolute dog shit, especially the ending. They legit denied Future Trunks the win he deserved just because Goku needed a solution to that stupid subplot that he had with Zeno and solved it by bringing another Zeno.
Gohan sucks. A lot. He’s the spoiled rich kid version of power levels, getting free power handouts. And he’s an uninteresting, bland protagonist without any good motivation and works overwhelmingly better as a side character.
And people only like him because they got attached to the kid their age who got angry, and then crazy powerful. He only served as a power fantasy for them, that they have strong nostalgia for.
This fits OP question perfectly.
Now my take is that Gohan has a lot more character than Goku and most people like Goku more because he is "simple" and has more badass moments.
Getting beast? No chance. She would need to have gohans + brolys potential on steroids to reach beast…
But yeah her getting back into fighting would be neat and her training with goku or Goten (or maybe even videl?) would be neat
The back tingles was not a big deal. At worst its a cringy way to explain focusing your ki at a certain point to transform.
Caulifla and Kefla were fine characters. The U6 saiyans are just way stronger than the **average** u7 saiyan(aka Saiyans outside of the main characters) so them achieving Super Saiyan easier is not a big deal, as achieving Super Saiyan was already shown to be easier with each new generation given how much more stronger they were starting out. Super Saiyan never was, **JUST** an emotional outburst, rage boosts certainly do exist but being powerful enough to achieve Super Saiyan is a bigger part of it.
Now it doesn't make any sense U6 saiyans didn't already know about Super Saiyan but having already much more powerful saiyans achieving the first level basic transformation that even children can master is not bad writing. Its consistent with the lore
Gohan power ups usually don’t make sense.
I get he has “potential” but his power ups always place skip him all the way to the top without much effort. Meanwhile it took others such extreme efforts to reach those unbelievable heights.
I think beast is alright, but how does it surpass super god levels? He was untrained and could barely use 2 confidently anymore. Then he suddenly surpassed power levels he has never experienced himself? At least if he had basic god mode it would make sense. But he didn’t even have that. He is literally walking cheat codes.
SSJ2 Gohan transformation is one of the most overrated moments in the franchise. Yeah, the sequence was cool, his fight with Cell is cool, but the actual trigger of the transformation being Android 16 dying is one of the most senseless things Toriyama ever wrote.
You're telling me that: Cell beating you up doesn't trigger you, Cell making the Cell Jrs to beat your friends up doesn't trigger you, but Cell killing a random android you've never even saw, knew or had any emotional attatchment to is what makes you explode with anger ???? Bruhhhhhh
I think it was the speech that did it. Gohan was trying not to get set off by cell beating the shit out of his friends and family, but when 16 saw that and basically told him to stop being a wuss, seeing him get killed by cell was like seeing that final barrier being broken
I low-key wish it was goku that called gohan out. It could have made his death even more impactful, since gohan snapped, played around too much, and caused his father to die. It could have made for some great character growth...or character trauma.
AND would have made the father son Kamehameha feel more. Close the loop on Gohan feeling like he let his dad down, by taking that extra step to make sure he didn’t mess up again.
Lets be honest.
Your *best friend* being blown to bits before you eyes by the most evil being in the universe who somehow survived a fucking spirit bomb has waaaaaay more emotional impact than a random nature-loving head you've know for 10 minutes.
On that note, was Android 16 really that relevant? I feel like he's overrated too, he's cool and all but I feel like he only really lived to drive the plot in some points.
He's underutilized, for sure.
I feel like 16 could've used some more backstory on his origins (seriously why tf Gero built a killing machine to kill Goku based on his own son) and have him actually interact with Gohan before the Cell games if he was gonna be what triggers Gohan's transformation.
The speech did it I think. Gohan was pushed very close to the edge by what Cell had been doing to his friends and father already, but when 16 told him it's okay to get angry and fight to protect what's precious, followed by seeing another death right in front of his eyes, he chose to let go and SS2 followed.
When SSJ1 and SSJ2 were first revealed they dominated, but SSJ3 was just either a stalemate or receiving Ls here and there. Also i really hope SSJ4 will become a thing again, it's one of the few things i like about GT and it's still a possibility it'll become canon because SSG is not an upgrade to SSJ3, SSGB is basically just SSJ in SSG form. So imagine a SSG4 form. Oh and UI is not a form it's a technique.
Raditz shouldn’t have been killed off.
Goku should’ve let Krillin finish off Vegeta.
The iconic trio of Dragonball Z, should’ve been Goku, Raditz and Piccolo.
Because Vegeta is just Piccolo 2.0, and Raditz had more story telling potential than The Prince and would’ve fit the Saiyan Saga’s theme better.
Imagine it… two lower class saiyan warriors, defeating the former top general and prince of the old saiyan regime, and then going on to avenge their father and entire race by killing Frieza. It would’ve been so cool…
Tien is lame and boring and doesn't deserve any more screen time or power than he gets. He and the other humans are fine how they are and there's no need to bring them up to par with the saiyans and other power houses in the current events. They only ever get included anymore because of their "grandfathered in the crew status" from DragonBall.
Goku gets trashed for not growing/developing like the other characters, but he's not supposed to. It's established who he is in DragonBall, and although he learns valuable lessons throughout the years, who he is never changes because he's not supposed to. He will always be Goku, and that's why all the others who follow him develop more profoundly in comparison.
The Goku Black arc was the worst arc in all of DB
Heavily disagree on the Tien part, he's one of the most technical fighters in the series with a lot of unique techniques just to him including the solar flare which for some reason some people think it's a Krillin's technique.
If Roshi gets this whole power boost and is made to be a big player in the ToP then Tien, who is the dude whose moveset was literally built to obliterate tournament settings, deserves an arc like that aswell.
The way they did Tien in super is by far the most dissrespect an old character ever got, people say that Vegeta got shafted by not being able to land the final blow on Frieza but at least he has a lot of dubs while Tien literally did not get shit but only humiliation just cause Japan doesn't like Tien.
I am perfectly fine with the “tingly back” scene in Super. There being a technical reasoning for the Super Saiyan tranformation makes sense, and I think slandering Caulifla for achieving it without trauma or anger is hypocritical when Trunks and Goten achieved Super Saiyan at a younger age in a peaceful world OFF-SCREEN and no one bats an eye. They’re even more of a “prodigy” than Caulifla is (and Dragon Ball is filled with plenty of these, why single out her?)!
Then Kale also transforms due to anger later, so it’s not like the scene took away anything. Just gives an idea on how it works from a less mystical point of view. Like how Goku is seemingly almost invincibly resilient in Dragon Ball, but it’s because of being a Saiyan come DBZ.
Admittedly they could have worded the script a bit better, and that might be the reason why people dislike the “tingly back” so much.
Powerlvl is the only thing that matters in DBZ/S. If your power is higher than the enemy, even by a small margin, the fight is already decided.
The ONLY exception is Piccolo vs Frost. Every other fight is decided by raw power lvl and NEVER by fighting ability or wits.
Z is better than Kai 🤌🏾 falconer music too
“does an android experience fear? “
“One thing a saiyan always keeps….his prideee!!!!”
“Don’t tell me you’re satisfied swatting flies like him” 😂😂 vegeta gave us quotes for days
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Gohan not wanting to be a fighter makes perfect sense, even if he has insane potential and his character arc through the series is (for Dragonball at least) realistic.
real talk and mfs were mad at chichi for not letting her toddler box grown mfs
The guy literally got his neck broken on an alien planet when he was 5 years old. I'd say Chichi had her reasons.
Counter argument: don’t fuck goku if you have an issue with child soldiers
Lol I hate this statement so much.
All I can hear is Kronk saying, "no no, hes got a point"
Cell is younger than gohan tho
Cell is built different
It's just two kids having a fun time right horse playing around
Literally.
He’d also been a fetus for 17 years though.
Being a fullgrown is not the same as being old(er), it just means Cell was fullgrown and Gohan wasnt
Mental =/= physical development
"I'm 6"
And Piccolo is also just a few years older
Not gonna lie, even if I am firmly in the "Gohan should've been the protagonist of the Buu saga" boat, I totally agree
I believe Toriyama was in this boat too. Wasn’t there an outcry for more Goku? I remember the cell saga was supposed to be Goku’s last big arc.
Toriyama started the Buu saga with the intention to make Gohan the main character, but then backed down and brought Goku back because the man has no attention span
For money, that is the reason why Goku was back. Goku was way more popular and made the company a lot of money, so he was forced back.
Nah he didn’t think it would fit gohan to be the call for adventure he only fights when he needs to
Honestly agree. I hope he gets to both fight, and still have his close family life. Really I'm also glad he isn't just another Goku
The guy steps up when he is needed. Which is ridiculously too often considering the people around him.
I have actually come to terms with this fact and because of it I respect adult Gohan a lot more now because if it, but straight up the great saiyaman stuff was weird and the fact that they kept doing him dirty with little to no reason at all makes me sad. It’s like the Yamcha situation where one scene happened that was supposed to be terrifying and shocking was turned into a joke and cause of that Yamcha’s entire character is ruined.
My theory is that Gohan got hit with PTSD (probably from the Ginyu force) which is why his Saiyaman phase even exists. Other than that though, Gohan’s remarkably well adjusted considering he’s quite literally had to fight for his life since his childhood
This seems like it may be canon. In Dragonball FighterZ, Krillin notes at one point that the Ginyu Force left such an impression on Gohan that he ended up creating this persona that relies on poses. It's not framed as PTSD, but...it probably should be. Android 21 was only in that game, until a scene in Super Hero shows that she exists in this continuity, too. They don't go into it or say if they actually met her or anything, though.
I was going to bring up fighterz yep he was like “this must be where gohan got these ridiculous poses from” lol
Gohan not wanting to be a fighter makes sense. Gohan shirking responsibility to help the Earth and Universe 7 when they need him does not make sense to his character.
I will say that I wish Gohan didn't go through the same basic character arc 3 times in a row. I think at this point, Toriyama should retire him. I'm fine with him being a family man. He either needs a new character arc, or to be retired.
Yeah this is my problem with it. I like badass, high potential Gohan who kicks ass I also don’t have a problem with goofy, dislikes fighting, didn’t live up to his potential and prefers living a regular life Gohan. I don’t like that we have to see him constantly bounce between the two and have the same arc on repeat. He genuinely feels like 2 different characters at this point.
Yeah, it's kinda obvious Toriyama just doesn't have anything new for Gohan, and that's totally fine. If he doesn't know what to do with him, then he should just stop trying, at least until he can figure out something new. I liked Gohan's arc in the Cell Saga, I didn't need to see it repeated in the Buu Saga, the ToP, and DBS:SH, complete with completely unoriginally rehashing his power up and giving him one of the dumbest transformations ever just to put him back in the limelight, until he gets shoved to the side for 3 arcs and has to do it all over again. I like family man scholar Gohan, I like badass warrior Gohan, and I think it *could* be interesting if Toriyama was able to blend those disparate versions together, but the way he's tried to mix them just doesn't work. Toriyama realized Gohan wasn't the right character to be the protag in the Buu Saga, so he should just retire him like half the other Z fighters. Krillin gets to be a cop and a family man, Tien gets to have his own martial arts school, Yamaha gets to be depressed and lonely, just like he should be. Everyone is able to do their own thing and be happy where they are, except for Gohan. He's the only one that has this schizophrenic character. He's the only one that's constantly getting resurrected to redo his highlights, then immediately dumped again.
I love the way he has been able to mix genius and fierce adventurer with Bulma… he can do the same with Gohan!
Actually it’s revealed in the show that he wanted to fight but was not allowed to due to Chichi wanting him to study
If Roshi was younger he'd be the strongest human
This is a fact lmao. Tien and Yamaha were both options for ToP but they went for Roshi. Plus Roshi scaled to early DB Piccolo. What I’m trying to say is, Prime Roshi is the strongest human we’ve ever seen
Pretty sure Tien was also in the tourney, no? And I mean of course Roshi is stronger than Yamcha. But ya him v tien I'm still saying Roshi.
Because this is on the topic of TOP I'm just going to put this here: Why didn't they bring back Cell and do the Saiyan God ritual with him and Gohan. That would have given them 4 Saiyan Gods to work with as opposed to only 2. Stack that with Golden Freeza and they would have had a stacked team even without Buu.
I believe they say souls move on from other world and get reincarnated, for example uub. I believe it was mentioned friezas soul was so mad it refused to move on and was persistent to staying in hell. So maybe cells soul was gone and unable to come back idk just a guess
Nah they said androids don’t have souls so can’t be brought back
I've wondered this for years. Thanks for this explanation lol
He was but it’s been a long time since I last watched it
Why hasn’t anyone just said to the dragon “I wish super powerful assholes will stop trying to destroy the universe so we don’t have to fight them anymore”?
“That wish is beyond my power”
The one true answer
True, but they could wish, for example, that Vegeta and Nappa's ship malfunctioned and exploded in space.
Didn’t they have the option for shenron to stop them but they chose not to? Or am i thinking of something else btw my hot take is Kami slams Raditz on his neck
Because then goku would have nobody to fight lmao
Lol true. I mean, I don’t want that to happen, I’d much rather watch the fights. It just seems like someone somewhere would have thought of it.
Yeah but everyone who thinks that and is smart enough to get the dragon balls unfortunately gets betrayed and locked in the hyperbolic time chamber for 1000 years by someone stronger than that smart ass nerd
Lol true. But in fairness the only dragon all locator we know about is the one bulma has. She’s kinda got a monopoly on eternal dragon wishes. So they’d have to betray her, and that would incur the wrath of vegeta. This should be the next arc.
Didn’t they kinda do this for Super Broly? With the radar being stolen from her laboratory?
Yeah but it wasn't a betrayal because it was from the enemy (Frieza)
1. Goku gets off to stuff like that 2. They’ll pull sum like Shenron doesn’t have enough power for that
They tried that against Nappa and Vegeta, but it was beyond Shenron’s power.
Cause then Zeno would destroy the universe or something like that due to the Gods of destruction having nobody to stop them.
Because it goes against goku's character lol dude would be wishing for the opposite. That's pretty much how he got the tournament of power started XD
because then the show would be pointless, and it doesn't work that way
I'm pretty sure it can only grant wishes the dragon is capable of. Shenron is the weakest. Parunga is stronger and the golden dragon is the strongest. If you asked the gold one it could possibly do it. But the others can't because someone like Moro is way stronger than both of them.
Bulma is stupidly annoying first season of dragon ball. Consistently screaming
That is a fact. And way more in the red ribbon saga Edit: spelling
They should have used the Dragon Balls to find Gero's lab before the Androids were complete.
The manga addresses this. It’s hilarious. Bulma suggests they have three years to find Gero before the androids activate. Goku & Vegeta tell her she’s nuts. Trunks just gave them a challenge and they want to accept.
Lots of people hate TFS but I like them cause of all the plotholes they point out and make fun of
The English dub is better. I need my Z-warriors with deep voices.
Tfs>>>>>>
I've always enjoyed the dub better, but nowadays, everyone dunks on the dub when it's decent to good after Freeza arc. It's as good as it can be during the Boo arc, GT, and OG DB.
Gogeta and vegito are the same in powerlevel, it’s just a different way to accomplish the same thing
Gogeta needs the fusees power level to be identical while Vegito doesnt. Vegito will always have a very slight advantage at any given time because one of Goku or Vegeta don't need to slightly lower his ki for the fusion. It is virtually insignificant? Yes, but it still exist.
Toriyama himself confirmed they're equal to each other in power
Toriyama said they were equally good trump cards
Dragon ball fans when they try to repeat something they read. (They cant read)
Vegito more arrogant gogeta more serious yet laid back at the same time. Other than that they're equal in power, just different techniques
Vegito and Gogeta don’t have different personalities. That’s just a popular headcanon.
I mean, they really do. Vegito is a hell of a lot mouthier than Gogeta.
The people Vegetto fought required him to be mouthy (Tempting Buu to absorb him/Destabilizing Zamasu), Gogeta just needed to beat Broli up.
That’s because Gogeta was up against mindless beasts while Vegito was up against people who could speak to. Goku and Vegeta weren’t talking to Broly anymore when they saw that he lost control. So neither Gogeta nor Vegito would’ve talked to him either. The janemba movie isn’t canon but if you were take to that in, then you should take in GT and DBH. In GT, Gogeta acted exactly like Vegito did against Buu which is because they needed to wait for their opponent to do something before killing them. And in DBH, we that Xeno Vegito was serious in his SSJ4 form and Vegito was serious against Cumber, who was basically mindless. Other than that, they only acted differently based on the circumstances.
Risky thing to say lmfao
Vegito does have the rival boost but his fusion would be much shorter due to his insane power while gogeta would get the full 30 minutes
Vegito is stronger but it’s okay to be wrong :>
I actually really like Kefla. I like having a super saiyan girl badass. Also, would love for Vegeta to actually visit planet Vegeta in the other universe like he said he was going to
Kefla makes even more sense when you realize we had 2 female saiyans in GT that were annoying as fuck and couldn't even go SSJ.
I actually liked Pan
kefla is fine, i just find it dumb how much they dumbed down super saiyan when the other universe saiyans showed up. like, no saiyan in either universe transforms for thousands of years, one pure hearted one does after errupting in anger when his best friend died, and then the prince of all saiyans, vegita, managed to do it to through sheer force of his will to be as strong as goku. then children started mastering it but even then it was still treated as something that was hard to do and required training. and then in dragon ball super suddnely all you need to do is focus on a fuzzy feeling in your back? thats the whole trick? and suddenly the number of super saiyans in existence goes up by like 33%?
Wait, people actually dislike kefla?
Yeah because they got to SSJ2 in a day and somehow forced Goku to go SSJG to beat them and then Kefla made him go UI and they don't have any God Ki or anything, they're just Saiyans from U6
Why the hell does anybody expect DragonBall plot to make sense?
They never went this far with the bullshit powerscaling before
Those two got way more screen time than they deserved. Written poorly, dialogue was trash tier, trivialized the trauma goku needed to go super saiyan by changing into some fuzzy feeling you need to focus on. All for what, the annoying sad one to turn into Broly? They were the worst characters of the tournament of power to me.
I don’t mind Kefla aside from disrespecting Goku as if he’s not the entire reason you know Saiyans can be that powerful, and the power jump for her was insanely ridiculous… like the way she jumps in power was like the writers were parodying themselves
Yeah it would be cool if they were written better
U6 saiyans are not bad, they are just wasted. Back tingle is still stupid, tho
Woulda preferred Caulifla over the fusion in Fighterz tho. I get why they chose Kefla however
Piccolo’s redemption arc was better than Vegeta’s.
I mean, yeah. Did piccolo unjustly cause mass genocide to a race of innocent people because he couldn't find a big rock?
He wiped out a city just to show off lol.
Buu should’ve fought in the ToP Hercule could’ve mind-gamed Buu to make him fight serous, and it would’ve been so much more interesting than, say, Tien (and I say that as a Tien fan)
The swap from technique to raw power being valued more was a bad one. I like most OG DB fights more than the Z and Super ones (on average) as a result of this
Literally just posted the game before finding this comment. Raw power decides fights in DBZ and Super 99% of the time. Technique or "genius fighting" matters nothing compared to just having a bit more power.
This is an unpopular opinion?
Saying “I am a dragon ball fan” on this subreddit.
True, you can't like any show or manga here without somebody spawning from behind you and slapping you
Zamasu is basically a rich person who hates poor people for struggling and decided that instead of actually doing anything to help them he'd just wipe them out since they're inferior to him for being born as a mortal.
Dub> Sub I just can’t get the same vibes with sub, imo characters just sound bland, whereas in dub their voices fit soo well, like for example whis having this gentleman voice, vegeta really having this pissed voice that is needed, even frieza has a more fitting voice
Also it's easier to multitask with dub [this video I think puts it perfectly](https://youtu.be/zPECDex4t6o)
Going to save this. I'm not often in places where I need to have this discussion but I resonate with this so fucking much.
I think Gohan could possibly be stronger than Goku BUT…I still think Goku would beat him in a fair fight. Think about it. Goku is a fighting genius. He has decades of fights under his belt and trains with a literal god and a angel. Raw power can only go so far.
I honestly think they're gonna make it so that Gohan isn't stronger than goku but he isn't far off either. At least in the manga.
Gohan has more fighting potential and grows faster than Goku, but he doesn’t have Goku’s passion. He’s happier in academics.
Gohan *is* stronger than Goku currently
That “fighting genius” ain’t stop Broly from smoking his ass
Vegeta > Goku
Im pretty sure a lot of people would agree with you.
Like at least half the fan base lol
Launch is best girl. She was my first crush on an anime girl (crazy women >>>)
If yamcha was in real life he would be the most powerful thing on earth. Also yamcha is able to destroy the planet with some effort.
Lmao no shit. Hes a fuckin DB character, thats not an unpopular opinion at all.
so mr. satan is off the table, then? xD
Super Saiyan was supposed to be a mythical and legendary form, and anything beyond Ssj2, which I can’t really see as a wholly different form than Ssj, was just a grab at more content because they needed to keep “raising the stakes”. Although cool, ssjg, ssgss, and “beast mode” are dumb concepts in my opinion.
Goku is decent in Super.
Goku in Super has reached that stage in life where everything is either “whatever” or “that’s a problem”. Where as the serious issues tend to actually get his attention. I like to call it “emotionally stable”.
I feel Goku in Super is just more relaxed in general, my guy achieved levels of power only known by deities and is friends with said deities. Unless shit hits the fan, he doesn't need to worry about much. He's way more laid back and casual about things in the epilogue of the original manga (casually drops a "Imma live with this kid for a while" and flies away) and I think Super Goku is good enough at bridging this gap.
And in the last moment fight between Goku, Frieza and 17 with Jiren, we can see that when he is serious and not messing around. Bro even scolded Frieza to stop playing and thinking he alone can do things.
Goku has reached a point in his development that I like to call Folklore Hero status. As a character, he doesn't really have any room to develop, and what little there is is often just retreads of previous arcs. Instead, their contribution to the story becomes how other characters and the world react and change because of them. For example, Goku is pretty much unchanged as a character by the time the ToP ends compared to how he was when it started. He has a new form, sure, but less energy is put into how he got there and how he feels about it, than there is in how everyone else reacts and adapts to it. Meanwhile, Hit (moreso in the U6 tourney, but still) Jiren and Kefla's arcs are all centered around how they change following their interactions and fights with Goku.
Basically a flat character arc.
Dragon Ball Super Animation is better than Dragon Ball Z Animation
Ofcourse, but people loves Z art style more and i understand
goku is a good father
Only when he's around
Lol I mean he’s too busy carrying the Z-warriors and saving the world.
I think comedy is more important to dragon ball overall through the series than action, though I would say they are close. Like og had a lot of gag like content I miss, though I'm glad super leaned into it some
Beerus should’ve been surpassed LONG ago. Due to SSG being even a half decent fight for him
i would like to counterargument because, yes ssg was a half decent fight but beerus is a lazy ass mf and since we've seen in top he has matered UI the best out of all the GoD's and is for that matter not training and just sleeping he could easily train to catch back up, we should also not forget that vegeta was trainig with beerus and developed ultraEgo which should be the equivalent to UI so it could be said beerus knows both Ui and how UltraEgo was made sincd its based on the GoD hakai, i think that because of this beerus should still be stronger
Nah, Whis said Beerus couldn't Master UI so at most all he has is UI omen. Even so, he couldnt hold it for long because his mind is built on destruction.
Goten has more potential than Gohan.
You speak truth
Kid Trunks too they’re like 5 year old super saiyans, that’s fucking insane personally i don’t think they should’ve gone super saiyan, but since they did it should be addressed just how impressive those two are, instead they’re relegated to kid shenanigans except for Gotenks fighting Buu (which really was also mostly kid shenanigans)
[удалено]
Dragon Ball Super is no less canon than GT, because the canon between series never made sense to begin with, AND THAT'S FINE. Let me clarify first by saying I am NOT claiming this to defend GT, I like Super a lot more. But Super directly contradicts the canon of the end of Z. They specifically say that nothing happened between Kid Buu's defeat and the Martial Arts Tournament. Z also contradicts the canon of the original series in several occasions, most blatantly with the world in Z being unaware of superpowered beings, when less than a decade earlier Master Roshi was blowing up the moon with laser beams on live television. And that's perfectly fine. Dragon Ball as a whole never tried very hard to maintain continuity between series, so it doesn't make sense for us fans to argue about it.
Also, Toriyama is to blame, since he’s notorious for forgetting lore things. And yeah, your take takes a W
Wasn’t end of Z retconned to fix this? or am I silly
I have to assume that retconning it will eventually be inevitable, if they haven’t done it already. But that doesn’t change my point: the original end of Z will always exist as part of DBZ, and any retcon will be part of the DBS canon. Treating each series as separate and enjoying them as such seems like the most sensible option to me.
You know what This makes more sense than almost anything people tried to say about super
Beast mode is fucking stupid and looks like a fan transformation that a 13 year old made. (I was that 13 year old and the transformation was for Naruto not even Dragonball.)
https://preview.redd.it/tt06d2xw9x4b1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=872c4cefeff171755c473db592957d64fb96c2ce Beast mode
Zamasu and the whole arc about his dumbass was stupid. Goku black is stupid, Zamasu is stupid, all of it is stupid, how it started and Future trunks new moves and power up was the only good thing, everything else except for the Vegito fight was absolute dog shit, especially the ending. They legit denied Future Trunks the win he deserved just because Goku needed a solution to that stupid subplot that he had with Zeno and solved it by bringing another Zeno.
I really enjoyed GT
Gohan sucks. A lot. He’s the spoiled rich kid version of power levels, getting free power handouts. And he’s an uninteresting, bland protagonist without any good motivation and works overwhelmingly better as a side character. And people only like him because they got attached to the kid their age who got angry, and then crazy powerful. He only served as a power fantasy for them, that they have strong nostalgia for.
I liked him best when he was in school. He actually had characters that revolved around him.
This fits OP question perfectly. Now my take is that Gohan has a lot more character than Goku and most people like Goku more because he is "simple" and has more badass moments.
Yes
THIS
Preach brother let your voice be heard, I'm ready to fight with you if needed
Chi chi should return to fighting, possibly getting beast.
Getting beast? No chance. She would need to have gohans + brolys potential on steroids to reach beast… But yeah her getting back into fighting would be neat and her training with goku or Goten (or maybe even videl?) would be neat
The back tingles was not a big deal. At worst its a cringy way to explain focusing your ki at a certain point to transform. Caulifla and Kefla were fine characters. The U6 saiyans are just way stronger than the **average** u7 saiyan(aka Saiyans outside of the main characters) so them achieving Super Saiyan easier is not a big deal, as achieving Super Saiyan was already shown to be easier with each new generation given how much more stronger they were starting out. Super Saiyan never was, **JUST** an emotional outburst, rage boosts certainly do exist but being powerful enough to achieve Super Saiyan is a bigger part of it. Now it doesn't make any sense U6 saiyans didn't already know about Super Saiyan but having already much more powerful saiyans achieving the first level basic transformation that even children can master is not bad writing. Its consistent with the lore
I never got why people were so mad about it. The transformation was already cheapened when Goten and trunks got it as children
But at least that makes a little bit of sense, both of their fathers are super saiyans. They were cheapened, but Kale and Caulifla got it for free.
Gohan power ups usually don’t make sense. I get he has “potential” but his power ups always place skip him all the way to the top without much effort. Meanwhile it took others such extreme efforts to reach those unbelievable heights. I think beast is alright, but how does it surpass super god levels? He was untrained and could barely use 2 confidently anymore. Then he suddenly surpassed power levels he has never experienced himself? At least if he had basic god mode it would make sense. But he didn’t even have that. He is literally walking cheat codes.
Raditz should’ve been brought back by now and had a character refreshment or possibly a turn to good with Goku and Vegeta.
SSJ2 Gohan transformation is one of the most overrated moments in the franchise. Yeah, the sequence was cool, his fight with Cell is cool, but the actual trigger of the transformation being Android 16 dying is one of the most senseless things Toriyama ever wrote. You're telling me that: Cell beating you up doesn't trigger you, Cell making the Cell Jrs to beat your friends up doesn't trigger you, but Cell killing a random android you've never even saw, knew or had any emotional attatchment to is what makes you explode with anger ???? Bruhhhhhh
I think it was the speech that did it. Gohan was trying not to get set off by cell beating the shit out of his friends and family, but when 16 saw that and basically told him to stop being a wuss, seeing him get killed by cell was like seeing that final barrier being broken
Even still. Toriyama could've made any character that actually has a strong bond with Gohan do this role. Android 16 felt so out of place.
I low-key wish it was goku that called gohan out. It could have made his death even more impactful, since gohan snapped, played around too much, and caused his father to die. It could have made for some great character growth...or character trauma.
AND would have made the father son Kamehameha feel more. Close the loop on Gohan feeling like he let his dad down, by taking that extra step to make sure he didn’t mess up again.
I 100% agree with that. I was mostly explaining why the ass beatings didn’t set him off
It's extremely overrated, it was cool and all but Goku going ssj for the first time was better.
Lets be honest. Your *best friend* being blown to bits before you eyes by the most evil being in the universe who somehow survived a fucking spirit bomb has waaaaaay more emotional impact than a random nature-loving head you've know for 10 minutes.
On that note, was Android 16 really that relevant? I feel like he's overrated too, he's cool and all but I feel like he only really lived to drive the plot in some points.
He's underutilized, for sure. I feel like 16 could've used some more backstory on his origins (seriously why tf Gero built a killing machine to kill Goku based on his own son) and have him actually interact with Gohan before the Cell games if he was gonna be what triggers Gohan's transformation.
The speech did it I think. Gohan was pushed very close to the edge by what Cell had been doing to his friends and father already, but when 16 told him it's okay to get angry and fight to protect what's precious, followed by seeing another death right in front of his eyes, he chose to let go and SS2 followed.
I like Super more than Z I don’t mind the back tingle thing I like Caulifla and Kale as characters
Your red monke fusion can’t beat Blue.
Uub is awful in character and design and needs less screen time.
discussions like this is a good way to weed out the shit-posters and people that refuse to be satisfied lol
Since everyone loves SSJ4 so much, they’re going to just completely redo the Shadow Dragon saga one day except that doesnt suck
pikkon is canon to super
SSJ3 is hands down the worst transformation in the series.
When SSJ1 and SSJ2 were first revealed they dominated, but SSJ3 was just either a stalemate or receiving Ls here and there. Also i really hope SSJ4 will become a thing again, it's one of the few things i like about GT and it's still a possibility it'll become canon because SSG is not an upgrade to SSJ3, SSGB is basically just SSJ in SSG form. So imagine a SSG4 form. Oh and UI is not a form it's a technique.
UI changes vegetas physical appearance, it’s a form.
Gt should have been cannon.
Asking fans to actually read dbz.
I liked GT
Raditz shouldn’t have been killed off. Goku should’ve let Krillin finish off Vegeta. The iconic trio of Dragonball Z, should’ve been Goku, Raditz and Piccolo.
Huh, i’ve never heard this take before Why Raditz over Vegeta? because he’s Goku’s brother? (i’m not arguing about it I’m just curious)
Because Vegeta is just Piccolo 2.0, and Raditz had more story telling potential than The Prince and would’ve fit the Saiyan Saga’s theme better. Imagine it… two lower class saiyan warriors, defeating the former top general and prince of the old saiyan regime, and then going on to avenge their father and entire race by killing Frieza. It would’ve been so cool…
I mean Raditz should have stayed, my mans is a wasted great character
Tien is lame and boring and doesn't deserve any more screen time or power than he gets. He and the other humans are fine how they are and there's no need to bring them up to par with the saiyans and other power houses in the current events. They only ever get included anymore because of their "grandfathered in the crew status" from DragonBall. Goku gets trashed for not growing/developing like the other characters, but he's not supposed to. It's established who he is in DragonBall, and although he learns valuable lessons throughout the years, who he is never changes because he's not supposed to. He will always be Goku, and that's why all the others who follow him develop more profoundly in comparison. The Goku Black arc was the worst arc in all of DB
Heavily disagree on the Tien part, he's one of the most technical fighters in the series with a lot of unique techniques just to him including the solar flare which for some reason some people think it's a Krillin's technique. If Roshi gets this whole power boost and is made to be a big player in the ToP then Tien, who is the dude whose moveset was literally built to obliterate tournament settings, deserves an arc like that aswell. The way they did Tien in super is by far the most dissrespect an old character ever got, people say that Vegeta got shafted by not being able to land the final blow on Frieza but at least he has a lot of dubs while Tien literally did not get shit but only humiliation just cause Japan doesn't like Tien.
Cooler is a lazy and boring character who shouldn't make a comeback GT deserves more respect than it gets
But he looks cool
Vegeta is Goku’s lackey equivalent to Piccolo in the beginning of Z. He’s just someone Goku can train with at this point.
They need to bring chaotzu back
17 is more interesting than 18.
Goku should have ended up with Bulma
Yes, easily the worst decision in dragon ball is goku actually marrying chi chi.
I am perfectly fine with the “tingly back” scene in Super. There being a technical reasoning for the Super Saiyan tranformation makes sense, and I think slandering Caulifla for achieving it without trauma or anger is hypocritical when Trunks and Goten achieved Super Saiyan at a younger age in a peaceful world OFF-SCREEN and no one bats an eye. They’re even more of a “prodigy” than Caulifla is (and Dragon Ball is filled with plenty of these, why single out her?)! Then Kale also transforms due to anger later, so it’s not like the scene took away anything. Just gives an idea on how it works from a less mystical point of view. Like how Goku is seemingly almost invincibly resilient in Dragon Ball, but it’s because of being a Saiyan come DBZ. Admittedly they could have worded the script a bit better, and that might be the reason why people dislike the “tingly back” so much.
Powerlvl is the only thing that matters in DBZ/S. If your power is higher than the enemy, even by a small margin, the fight is already decided. The ONLY exception is Piccolo vs Frost. Every other fight is decided by raw power lvl and NEVER by fighting ability or wits.
I like Goku more than vegeta and like Champa more than Beerus.
Z is better than Kai 🤌🏾 falconer music too “does an android experience fear? “ “One thing a saiyan always keeps….his prideee!!!!” “Don’t tell me you’re satisfied swatting flies like him” 😂😂 vegeta gave us quotes for days