The Touden siblings are unusually naive in the company of mercenaries and other people profiting off the dungeon, but also very competent adventurers. It‘s a reasonable assumption that there is more here than meets the eye.
Kabru also seems quite cynical about humans in general.
I would say that thanks to experience they became really competent adventures, but they were idiots when dealing with other members of the party. Them meeting and working with Chilchuk was a blessing because he have the experience Laios and Farin didn't have.
Hell, Laios didn't knew/notice he was being "seduced" by the previous mage who was trying to get special treatment/money and asking him about his father.
they give money to people who are criminals. the Touden's aren't aware of what these people do with that money, they are just being naively generous. Kabru is essentially saying it isn't safe to give them the benefit of the doubt if there are only two explanations for their behavior, A: they are sweet and innocent people whom everyone takes advantage of or B: they are connected criminally and just behave to keep plausible deniability
It's also Kabru projecting to some degree. A politically savvy person like himself would never give money to criminals without wanting something back, and he can't really understand why anyone else would either. Money is power, and why would you just give power away?
That's partially why he was so thrown by Laios when he met him for the first time, it was a hard shock of oh right this man is simply insane.
> it was a hard shock of oh right this man is simply insane.
Not that simple or he wouldn't have worked so hard to keep the Canaries off his back.
More like “this guy's an *[idiot](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19WdVtV5750)"*
And I mean he was kind of trying to justify his crush a little, the guy tried so hard to meet Laios and befriend him and got utterly ignored that he probably had to justify his obsession
>he can't really understand why anyone else would either.
I think he wants to know "Their true nature" exacly because he understands, he wants to know if they're good people being swindled or criminals involved in the black market.
I disagree with that because of who he is, a boy who was raised by the extremely politically motivated elves. "Morally good" isn't really part of it so much as "positive towards a general societal good".
From an outsider's perspective, the Toudens are suspicious and definitely a threat if you're concerned about who conquers the dungeon.
1. No one really knows much about them. They know *of* them, though. They're a mysterious pair who just kind of showed up one day. They don't seem to be interested in the dungeon for any of the usual reasons. They give their money away to suspicious people and keep mostly to themselves. Eventually they split off and form their own party and they're *good* at what they do.
2. Their acquaintances are all perceived as pretty shady too: Marcille is an elf and a skilled mage that is sticking with them for unknown reasons, Chilchuck has kind of a reputation as being money-hungry, Toshiro is a mysterious foreigner, and Namari is facing the repercussions of her father's embezzlement. That's quite a collection of highly skilled, but strange people banding together for unclear reasons.
3. Kabru has actually tried to talk to Laios, but was blown off on multiple occasions. This guy doesn't seem to give a damn about people!
If you've made your entire life's goal to prevent the power of a dungeon from falling into the wrong hands, there are definitely some red flags being raised.
we only get little tastes of it but i really love how thoughtfully ryoko kui shows the type of social dynamics that develop in an insular subculture like dungeoneers on the island
edit: if->of
> Kabru has actually tried to talk to Laios, but was blown off on multiple occasions. This guy doesn't seem to give a damn about people!
🤣
"I must kill him!"
Kabru approaches the dungeon politically. He cares about what it means for the big picture of relationships between the human races and the role of tall-men in the world. That's why he came there at all. But from what he's seen, Laios and Falin care, at best, about their own pet interests and not about people as a whole. Even if they're not corrupt, they're not savvy enough to rule the dungeon and deal with all that would entail.
This is why Kabru is a great character, cause irl, so many people think you can’t be a problem if you don’t pull the figurative trigger (I.e in this case, have the ideology to hurt others) but you very much can be.
I think he had a hard time believing that anyone would be as generous as them, so he assumed the worst. But honestly I found his whole deal to be a bit confusing, >!he's not very consistent with what he says about them over time.!<
> "once he gets to know him, he fully wants to strangle him"
Tfw your response at being offered off-putting food you don't dare refuse is to **consider murder**.
When it was alive. Avenge yourself and your people. Devour your enemies! Don't just kill the Beast, literally spitroast it with your iron meat stick (a stick for meat), cook its liver with fava beans and a glass of Chianti, make its blubber into lamp oil and magic fuel, skin it and tan its skin and make a regal coat out of it. [ [Spoilers for Invincible](https://external-preview.redd.it/64RMAsWf-feI14vvC7w1m6DRFPtJ-0EnaevU_CfMRrU.jpg?auto=webp&s=2acd3c4c57eacc8d047d2e5398860ef944bd012a) ]
EMBRACE THE *METAL!*
That's [technically correct](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_(jurisprudence)). Would a jury or judge accept "I didn't want to eat it but saying no was awkward" falling under self-defense, defense of others, defense of property, or necessity?
She's mentioned in supplementary material that she thought at one point Laios might end up as Lord of the Dungeon. Kabru's concern that Laios might side with monsters over humanity might be a reflection of the authors uncertainty!
In simplest terms, Kabru was the first to realize that the Touden siblings are uninterested in people. This doesn't mean that they're unkind or manipulative, just that the way they act is at odds with Kabru (a very politically minded person) and how a traditional leader should act. Basically, Kabru's fear is that if the Touden siblings were to become Dungeon Lords that they wouldn't act with everyone's best interests in mind BECAUSE that was never their main concern. Like, Laios is dangerous because he might side with monsters against humanity because of his love for them versus any actual real motivation for power, which would be easier to navigate. Also, Kabru is just kinda' obsessed with Laios LOL.
The translation you posted by EHScans is a bit controversial in this instance, the translators themselves admitted that they had made Kabru's dialogue a bit more hostile than it maybe should have been once they had the proper context for this speech.
The more accurate interpretation of the conversation here is that, rather than saying that Laios and his team aren't good people, he's moreso just pointing out that >!they aren't the morally upstanding saints that rumours paint them to be. Kabru just doesn't want them to be the ones to clear the dungeon and become the new rulers of it because they seemingly have no real interest in other human beings, rather, they're just adventuring for their own sakes, similarly to others who are just doing it for money. Its not intended to be an overt insult, he just doesn't think they're qualified to be rulers when they clearly have no interest or goals in regards to ruling the land. This is pretty much confirmed to be true in the chapter with the Orcs given that when Zon asks Laios what he'd do if he cleared the dungeon and become the ruler, Laios has no real answer and basically says he never really thought about it.!<
He's heard nothing but positive rumours about how they always want to help people despite the reality of them just being strung along by scammers, so he >!wants the truth to come out (for the siblings to be 'unmasked') and someone else more suitable for the position of ruler after the dungeon is conquered to come forward (he originally considered himself for the role, but that was also just because he didn't think there was anyone else actively adventuring who wasn't just in it for themselves/the money)!<
adding onto what others have said, you will find out more later but kabru grew up in circumstances that taught him to be machiavellian. people who've had to fixate on trying to understand and outmaneuver whoever could be dangerous or an obstacle to them tend to instinctively believe everyone else is also scheming, and either lean into it or overcorrect in the other direction
Kabru seems like he was initially set up to be a foil to Laios, as this charismatic well-intentioned antivillain who’s very interested in how *people* work (and how to kill them), just like how Laios is with monsters. This is never really followed through on, though - I think Kui just decided there wasn’t really room in the story, and wrote him to eventually change his mind without ever doing anything to anyone.
I would have liked antivillain Kabru though, I think. I’d love to know Kui’s thoughts on him.
Kabru believes the Touden siblings are not honest people. He believes those two to be so unaware of people taking advantage of them that it feels like it has to be intentional. Like when a child is standing in the middle of the street blocking an intersection and causing trouble for every car around them.
We know that the money was actually the group scamming them with payment for their "seats" in the bonus content. Kabru was unfortunately jumping to conclusions using half-information. It's also set up to show that Kabru isn't actually good with honest people at all.
kabru dont believe honest people exist in dungeon. You can understand that when kabrun and canaries go to 1st floor, a place full of cunning and cruel people(they sell abhuman slave), and how evil of that dark dwalf.
You cannot blame kabru for that
The ex-member is bad person.
Touden supporting bad person.
They are bad people.
It's a simple logic, until it's occurred to him that Touden may just not aware about the ex-member.
There are a lot of red flags with the Touden party, Namari has a bad reputation because of her father, some people see Chilchuck as a sort of mafia boss, and the Touden siblings seem to be "paying" criminals so they might have a conection to the black market.
Kabru doesn't really know if they're in fact bad people or not, so he wants to meet then and make sure, so the control of the dungeon doesn't fall in bad hands
Because he's right. They're amoral. He has correctly identified that they're hiding a selfish, borderline sociopathic motive, but he hasn't figured out exactly what it is. They don't actually give a damn about humanity. Canonically, Laios' top priority is indulging his monster fetish, and his next highest priority is protecting his sister. Everything he does is geared toward those goals, and the only reason he's not an outright villain is because the narrative doesn't punish him for it.
The Touden siblings are unusually naive in the company of mercenaries and other people profiting off the dungeon, but also very competent adventurers. It‘s a reasonable assumption that there is more here than meets the eye. Kabru also seems quite cynical about humans in general.
I would say that thanks to experience they became really competent adventures, but they were idiots when dealing with other members of the party. Them meeting and working with Chilchuk was a blessing because he have the experience Laios and Farin didn't have. Hell, Laios didn't knew/notice he was being "seduced" by the previous mage who was trying to get special treatment/money and asking him about his father.
they give money to people who are criminals. the Touden's aren't aware of what these people do with that money, they are just being naively generous. Kabru is essentially saying it isn't safe to give them the benefit of the doubt if there are only two explanations for their behavior, A: they are sweet and innocent people whom everyone takes advantage of or B: they are connected criminally and just behave to keep plausible deniability
It's also Kabru projecting to some degree. A politically savvy person like himself would never give money to criminals without wanting something back, and he can't really understand why anyone else would either. Money is power, and why would you just give power away? That's partially why he was so thrown by Laios when he met him for the first time, it was a hard shock of oh right this man is simply insane.
> it was a hard shock of oh right this man is simply insane. Not that simple or he wouldn't have worked so hard to keep the Canaries off his back. More like “this guy's an *[idiot](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19WdVtV5750)"*
And I mean he was kind of trying to justify his crush a little, the guy tried so hard to meet Laios and befriend him and got utterly ignored that he probably had to justify his obsession
Greatest diplomat in the series, could not string two sentences together the one time he needed to talk to Laios. Mans was flustered.
Completely shook.
Bro was flabbergasted
>he can't really understand why anyone else would either. I think he wants to know "Their true nature" exacly because he understands, he wants to know if they're good people being swindled or criminals involved in the black market.
I disagree with that because of who he is, a boy who was raised by the extremely politically motivated elves. "Morally good" isn't really part of it so much as "positive towards a general societal good".
From an outsider's perspective, the Toudens are suspicious and definitely a threat if you're concerned about who conquers the dungeon. 1. No one really knows much about them. They know *of* them, though. They're a mysterious pair who just kind of showed up one day. They don't seem to be interested in the dungeon for any of the usual reasons. They give their money away to suspicious people and keep mostly to themselves. Eventually they split off and form their own party and they're *good* at what they do. 2. Their acquaintances are all perceived as pretty shady too: Marcille is an elf and a skilled mage that is sticking with them for unknown reasons, Chilchuck has kind of a reputation as being money-hungry, Toshiro is a mysterious foreigner, and Namari is facing the repercussions of her father's embezzlement. That's quite a collection of highly skilled, but strange people banding together for unclear reasons. 3. Kabru has actually tried to talk to Laios, but was blown off on multiple occasions. This guy doesn't seem to give a damn about people! If you've made your entire life's goal to prevent the power of a dungeon from falling into the wrong hands, there are definitely some red flags being raised.
One of the reasons I love the series so much. Rumors and pre conceived perceptions are such a human thing.
we only get little tastes of it but i really love how thoughtfully ryoko kui shows the type of social dynamics that develop in an insular subculture like dungeoneers on the island edit: if->of
> Kabru has actually tried to talk to Laios, but was blown off on multiple occasions. This guy doesn't seem to give a damn about people! 🤣 "I must kill him!"
Kabru approaches the dungeon politically. He cares about what it means for the big picture of relationships between the human races and the role of tall-men in the world. That's why he came there at all. But from what he's seen, Laios and Falin care, at best, about their own pet interests and not about people as a whole. Even if they're not corrupt, they're not savvy enough to rule the dungeon and deal with all that would entail.
This is why Kabru is a great character, cause irl, so many people think you can’t be a problem if you don’t pull the figurative trigger (I.e in this case, have the ideology to hurt others) but you very much can be.
I think he had a hard time believing that anyone would be as generous as them, so he assumed the worst. But honestly I found his whole deal to be a bit confusing, >!he's not very consistent with what he says about them over time.!<
[удалено]
> "once he gets to know him, he fully wants to strangle him" Tfw your response at being offered off-putting food you don't dare refuse is to **consider murder**.
To be fair said off putting food was what cause you to lose you entire family and hometown
When it was alive. Avenge yourself and your people. Devour your enemies! Don't just kill the Beast, literally spitroast it with your iron meat stick (a stick for meat), cook its liver with fava beans and a glass of Chianti, make its blubber into lamp oil and magic fuel, skin it and tan its skin and make a regal coat out of it. [ [Spoilers for Invincible](https://external-preview.redd.it/64RMAsWf-feI14vvC7w1m6DRFPtJ-0EnaevU_CfMRrU.jpg?auto=webp&s=2acd3c4c57eacc8d047d2e5398860ef944bd012a) ] EMBRACE THE *METAL!*
It's not murder if it's justified
That's [technically correct](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_(jurisprudence)). Would a jury or judge accept "I didn't want to eat it but saying no was awkward" falling under self-defense, defense of others, defense of property, or necessity?
>"I didn't want to eat it but saying no was awkward" falling under self-defense, defense of others, defense of property, or necessity? Yes.
Yeah I genuinely feel Kui might have had different plans for him when he was introduced, but I do like where he ended up.
I feel like she changed a lot of her plans for the story over time
She's mentioned in supplementary material that she thought at one point Laios might end up as Lord of the Dungeon. Kabru's concern that Laios might side with monsters over humanity might be a reflection of the authors uncertainty!
In simplest terms, Kabru was the first to realize that the Touden siblings are uninterested in people. This doesn't mean that they're unkind or manipulative, just that the way they act is at odds with Kabru (a very politically minded person) and how a traditional leader should act. Basically, Kabru's fear is that if the Touden siblings were to become Dungeon Lords that they wouldn't act with everyone's best interests in mind BECAUSE that was never their main concern. Like, Laios is dangerous because he might side with monsters against humanity because of his love for them versus any actual real motivation for power, which would be easier to navigate. Also, Kabru is just kinda' obsessed with Laios LOL.
The translation you posted by EHScans is a bit controversial in this instance, the translators themselves admitted that they had made Kabru's dialogue a bit more hostile than it maybe should have been once they had the proper context for this speech. The more accurate interpretation of the conversation here is that, rather than saying that Laios and his team aren't good people, he's moreso just pointing out that >!they aren't the morally upstanding saints that rumours paint them to be. Kabru just doesn't want them to be the ones to clear the dungeon and become the new rulers of it because they seemingly have no real interest in other human beings, rather, they're just adventuring for their own sakes, similarly to others who are just doing it for money. Its not intended to be an overt insult, he just doesn't think they're qualified to be rulers when they clearly have no interest or goals in regards to ruling the land. This is pretty much confirmed to be true in the chapter with the Orcs given that when Zon asks Laios what he'd do if he cleared the dungeon and become the ruler, Laios has no real answer and basically says he never really thought about it.!< He's heard nothing but positive rumours about how they always want to help people despite the reality of them just being strung along by scammers, so he >!wants the truth to come out (for the siblings to be 'unmasked') and someone else more suitable for the position of ruler after the dungeon is conquered to come forward (he originally considered himself for the role, but that was also just because he didn't think there was anyone else actively adventuring who wasn't just in it for themselves/the money)!<
adding onto what others have said, you will find out more later but kabru grew up in circumstances that taught him to be machiavellian. people who've had to fixate on trying to understand and outmaneuver whoever could be dangerous or an obstacle to them tend to instinctively believe everyone else is also scheming, and either lean into it or overcorrect in the other direction
Kabru seems like he was initially set up to be a foil to Laios, as this charismatic well-intentioned antivillain who’s very interested in how *people* work (and how to kill them), just like how Laios is with monsters. This is never really followed through on, though - I think Kui just decided there wasn’t really room in the story, and wrote him to eventually change his mind without ever doing anything to anyone. I would have liked antivillain Kabru though, I think. I’d love to know Kui’s thoughts on him.
Unrelated but I do like the attention to detail on how Ryoko Kui made Kabru's hair grow out
Kabru believes the Touden siblings are not honest people. He believes those two to be so unaware of people taking advantage of them that it feels like it has to be intentional. Like when a child is standing in the middle of the street blocking an intersection and causing trouble for every car around them. We know that the money was actually the group scamming them with payment for their "seats" in the bonus content. Kabru was unfortunately jumping to conclusions using half-information. It's also set up to show that Kabru isn't actually good with honest people at all.
kabru dont believe honest people exist in dungeon. You can understand that when kabrun and canaries go to 1st floor, a place full of cunning and cruel people(they sell abhuman slave), and how evil of that dark dwalf. You cannot blame kabru for that
Yes. I agree.
Kabru is a very interesting person, so interesting that I never quite got to figure out if I love or hate the man
The top panel looks like Kabru saw the Mona Lisa as a kid.
The ex-member is bad person. Touden supporting bad person. They are bad people. It's a simple logic, until it's occurred to him that Touden may just not aware about the ex-member.
There are a lot of red flags with the Touden party, Namari has a bad reputation because of her father, some people see Chilchuck as a sort of mafia boss, and the Touden siblings seem to be "paying" criminals so they might have a conection to the black market. Kabru doesn't really know if they're in fact bad people or not, so he wants to meet then and make sure, so the control of the dungeon doesn't fall in bad hands
There's a reason why Kabru was once nicknamed "Cabron" by fans. But yeah, the others have the right of it.
Because he's right. They're amoral. He has correctly identified that they're hiding a selfish, borderline sociopathic motive, but he hasn't figured out exactly what it is. They don't actually give a damn about humanity. Canonically, Laios' top priority is indulging his monster fetish, and his next highest priority is protecting his sister. Everything he does is geared toward those goals, and the only reason he's not an outright villain is because the narrative doesn't punish him for it.
https://preview.redd.it/ci91ffaz0esc1.png?width=266&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a48be8ae9aa060a5fbdf9b8632937950e74db600
I didn't ask you to read it