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Maybe he’s talking about those people that received massive PPP loans that were forgiven because I can’t imagine how $2000 given to low income people managed to remain unspent given the incredible inflation that has happened since then..
Crazy how 80% went of ppp money went to people in the top 20% of wealth. Same shit every recession. Bail out garbage companies with tax payer money so they don't fire people, they fire people anyway, and then split the handout between their ceos. Then they'll use their wealth to veto any bill that helps actual people. Tale as old as time.
The amount of local businesses in my area that I know spent money on nothing to do with their business is laughable. I could investigate the whole process and not sure why anyone hasn't. Owners buying 2nd homes, etc.
We had a restraunatuer purchase a brand new Corvette during lockdown while decrying that no one wanted to work. After he deliberately laid off a bunch of staff.
He also flaunted COVID lockdown rules in the bar he owned. When he was cited for this he threw a massive social media tantrum.
Then he threatened the county health officials with physical violence.
Then he organized an antilockdown protest directly outside the head county health officials home where the protestors *threatened her children*.
Guess what consequences he faced?
Salaries of everyone cut by 25% or something (whatever the government max cut was)… dude drives in with a 150k car purchase that was just the newer year of their old car. They didn’t seem to have a shred of a sense of the irony.
Oh also broke every Covid lockdown law possible. Forced in office work. No masking requirements. Same room meetings again no masking. Bought stolen vaccine cards and made them up for employees that didn’t want the vax so they could work with clients that required vaxed staffing. Gave me covid. Gave a large group of employees covid by having a person *known* to have covid who reported their covid to them work with others in close proximity without telling those other people.
No no no you don't understand. The money given by PPP DID go to the (remaining) employees. All THAT money was reinvested into the company and (cut) staff. It was all the revenue that they used for the other stuff. Their hard(ly) earned money that came in from doing buisnes. It just so happens to also be nearly the exact same amount of money that the government gave them. Maybe if you were better at strapping boots or something, you could be wildly successful, too.
All those poor liquor stores that struggled during the pandemic. What ever would they have done if the taxpayers didn’t pay their payroll for 2 years. /s
The owner of the company I work at took 15 million in PPP loans, forced us back to work last minute so that he qualified for forgiveness and then sold the company for 30 million
My childhood neighbors, probably the wealthiest family in a 3 county area, got a $500k PPP loan forgiven for just one of their Chevy dealerships. They own a number of brand-new vehicle dealerships as well as a trite business, hotel businesses, a gym, and massive gas lease holdings. All-in, I bet they got $1.5 to 2.5 million handed to them when their fortune was already around $100,000,000.
>I could investigate the whole process and not sure why anyone hasn't
There was outright fraud but because most of it was done legally. Money was given out pay employees even if the business was not losing any money. That money was indeed spent on payroll so nothing here was illegal.
Which is illegal and you can/should report them. While a lot of the money did go for fucked up shit like this, that was part of trying to get it out the door quickly given the situation. They are working hard on clawing back as much as they can that went to BS like that and prosecuting those who did when it makes sense.
Source: work in a bank back office and file reports on those people as we see them, and get requests for more information about them fairly regularly.
It trickles down to the c level anf investors. The people that make their jobs possible get nothing. Sometimes, they get laid off but the c level still gets a new vacation home or yacht.
I'm a small, maybe, medium-sized business. I opened 2 more locations with my covid money. That's about 30 jobs and a ton of tax revenue. Almost all the money went to local contractors to build them out too. Paying about 50k in sales tax a month + all my payroll taxes. I'd say the government got a great investment from the 250k I got
You’re not the problem. Huge corporations getting that free cash are. You don’t sound like a public company using aid to small businesses to buy back stocks. You sound like exactly the company who deserved it! Kudos to you!
If you shit on a hill, shit rolls downhill.
If you piss on a hill, piss trickles down.
If you drop money on a hill, the vultures at JP Morgan swoop in and steal it.
Waiting around to be trickled on has never been a viable path to financial independence.
Also how many people knew of a company or someone that took the money and used it for vacation? Or just closed down anyway and used it to keep themselves afloat.
Its interesting how its justified too. There was an emergency which create the need to pass something, anything, as a stop gap, without wasting critical time to understanding the cost and inequity. Those would be figured out later. But after the emergency, all political will was lost to address any of the issues, and so it has just been accepted as a one time, historically large transfer of wealth from the working class to high net worth business owners.
They’ve been waiting a long time to do something like that and COVID gave them a good excuse. I don’t know about you but I didn’t get to shelter in place for two years. The good news was that there was very little traffic.
> They’ve been waiting a long time to do something like that and COVID gave them a good excuse
this is basically [shock doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine):
> This centers on the exploitation of national crises (disasters or upheavals) to establish controversial and questionable policies, while citizens are too distracted (emotionally and physically) to engage and develop an adequate response and resist effectively
Ppp forgiveness money to the rich = wise economics, good for economy, no moral hazard, no effect on inflation.
Student loan forgiveness for the middle class = terrible economics, moral hazard, awful for the economy, major cause of inflation (even if it didn’t happen).
Oh those stupid rich people, accidentally fumbling a program that gives low-interest loans specifically to large companies, then has those loans forgiven. Oh what a huge mistake
Not just companies, millions were taken and forgiven for gop members. I remember the Biden administration making a video with all Republicans that took that money, surprised it didn't circulate more, I want them to be called out by name and amount they stole from tax payers
You see the case to have the forgiveness to canceled? It was insane. The 2 people and company that backed them had like 750k in ppp loans forgiven between the 3 of them. Their arguments were like watching 2 toddlers try to tattle on each other, but somehow they won. These people are sick, man. They'll sign a 1 trillion dollar deal to 'stimulate' their buddies but then scream about wasting money on education or even k-12 free lunches
The only interesting part is we had dozens of Democrats calling this out while the legislation was still up for a vote, trying to amend it to include accountability and consequences for fraud, which the GOP struck down.
Everyone pointed out that every previous study suggested that it would be far better to give the money to the working class to spend in their communities to keep the economy running instead of giving it to the rich and trusting them to pass it all down to their employees.
Every study I have seen since then has concluded that this was a disastrous policy that transferred tremendous wealth from the working class to the people that needed it the least and did not trickle down much at all.
So there is no debate here. It's just every sane and sensible person pointing out the obvious while all of the right wing grifters and Robber Barons and their bootlickers avoid the topic and pretend it didn't happen and isn't causing problems to this day.
How the fuck can so many people be so aware of how fucked all of this is and get we can't do a goddamn thing about it? How can the scummiest, most dishonest, and most sociopathic people in the country just pretend none of this is true and face absolutely no consequences for what was either a collosal fuckup or malicious class warfare?
It's like watching a Wall Street Banker or Republican politician shoot people and take their wallets and purses and they just get to go about their day and keep the money they looted if they pretend it never happened. And this is a direct analogy because **people did die during the pandemic because of shit like being forced to go to work while infections were high in their area.**
And the next time some ridiculous legislation like this comes along, all of these silent psychopaths that are playing pretend and avoiding the topic will sprint to be the first to set the narrative in the public discourse. They'll sit there and argue with all the same shitty logic they used to push PPP loans while continuing to ignore anyone that calls them out over those loans.
The single biggest problem in America is how our worst people get to run their mouths and get people hurt or killed and then pretend it never happened until they get another opportunity to do it again. So they just keep fucking doing it. Over and over again. The same arguments. With the same results.
It's like basic evidence and logic doesn't apply to them at all. They get to live their lives as if their fantasies are just as valid as everyone else's realities.
it was the same story in 2008 - Jon Stewart was shockingly the only person on TV (that I recall) actually asking the question "Maybe instead of giving all the money to the failing banks, can't we spend the same money on average Americans paying off their debts? The banks get money and stay solvent, and the people see relief too - at the same cost in terms of the US debt or inflation etc."
He'd ask this of top members of the Obama admin, and always humbly add things like "I'm not an economist" and "maybe this is stupid" but the response was routinely just surprise, and admission that maybe that could have worked.
It's just like our political leadership really has no idea to think about the needs of the average American.
>How the fuck can so many people be so aware of how fucked all of this is and get we can't do a goddamn thing about it?
I don't think most people are aware of it though. And those that are, are more likely to have positioned themselves to benefit from it. Most people who got the individual stimulus probably think they were net beneficiaries because they received some >0 nominal amount of money. Their employer who may have gotten a 6 or 7 figure PPP check isn't incentivized to tell their employees that.
Yeah most regular working people aren’t paying attention to these things, they just care about their personal situation. My mind is still always blown when people don’t know things that I think are common knowledge.
One time transfer is right. I’m 62 years old and I’ve been watching since the republicans duped the populace into the trickle down scam back in the 80’s.
And now we have large uncompetitive conglomerates that control huge swathes of the market share. They make poor products at high prices and the consumer has no choice among any of them. The government created this, and this is what we get.
I went freelance just last year and have my own company. If I’d had my LLC in 2020, I bet I would not have applied for a loan because I don’t “need” it and wouldn’t have wanted to pay something back. But as you can see I’m an honest sucker. All the swinging Richard’s out there just said “yeah I need $250k, stat” and they all just got it forgiven. And used it to buy a pickup truck and new hot tub.
I have an LLC I haven’t used in years but when the PPP loans came out the bank I used was literally spamming me, begging me to take out the loan. Of course I didn’t, but it was a free for all at the time and so many people got massive handouts for nothing.
> 80% went of ppp money went to people in the top 20% of wealth
Are those stats confirmed, or are you guesstimating? TBH I would have expected a higher percentage of the money to have gone to a smaller percentage of people at the top.
Small business I worked for during COVID received $40k in PPP loans, and I never saw a dime of it, because they did not lose much, if any business during COVID. Hell, they would boast about how well they were doing.
Just saw this week, they have a gofund me going for $25k in legal fees. No idea what for, but man do I want to know.
The PPP loans were a lifesaver for my small business - we had 5 employees and worked in the live event space so obviously covid was murder. We were able to keep our employees on staff and survive. No corvettes or other frills.
Largest wealth transfer in history. PPP lined the pockets of wealthy individuals. Many other SBA loans actually went to businesses that were actually just broken up divisions of larger corporations that would never in a million years be considered small businesses. Not to mention the massive amount of fraudulent loans that will never be discovered due to the sheer volume of applicants. The Fed's massive injection of cash combined with zeroed interest rates drove a massive spike in inflation and corporate stock buybacks while forcing legit small businesses out of business as larger corporations consolidated market share thanks to their access to the cash window and ability to better absorb temporary crashes in demand. Meanwhile, consumer debt levels went through the roof, a fifth of US homes were bought up by institutional investors, and house prices/rents, energy bills, and healthcare costs soared. Now, credit has tightened, prices of everything continue to rise, the dollar's buying power has tanked, and the US is paying more interest than ever just to service its debt. The federal response to COVID was basically the equivalent of a husband or wife maxing out their credit card, opening another one in their in their kid's name and maxing it out, forcing the kid to quit their job, and then sticking them with the bill. Gen Z should be livid.
He’s talking about people that make a decent salary and don’t have to make choices between buying their kids new shoes or replacing the tires on their car.
Those people saved money during covid because they weren’t commuting to work, they weren’t dry cleaning their work clothes, they couldn’t take expensive vacations and their kids were remote, so they weren’t buying sports equipment etc. etc.
Those people still have more savings than they did before Covid. He’s not really concerned about the people who have to pay fees to use his bank.
And now that the Department of Education is finally honoring promises made to students that went into public service and made 10 years of payments - some will not have to pay student loans ever again.
That’s exactly who he’s talking about. Friends. Acquaintances. Business partners.
They had money before, they continued to make it during Covid, some got a bump in their wealth from the assets they already owned, and now some of us are renting our homes from them too, in my case.
But, no, the hourly workers do not have money, and they didn’t before. They won’t have it tomorrow.
I’m not saying nothing has changed. Far from that. The distance between the haves and have nots is just much wider now.
Lots of upper income folks still have covid savings - cancelled luxury vacations, started working from home so fewer designer clothes/tailoring/dry cleaning, and cars were harder to get anyway, so held off on that new Mercedes, housing market bad so stayed put and did some remodels instead of buying a bigger fancier house. And if you aren’t in that category Jamie cannot imagine your existence.
The working class and poor don’t exist as real humans to someone like him. They are just another economic variable that can be adjusted and manipulated for ‘economic efficiency’. If profit margins and wealth inequality continue to rise then ‘economic efficiency’ is improving.
He’s talking about additional savings people have from the Covid period. On average, expenditures went way down during Covid and savings rates went way up. He’s referring to that additional savings has not been completely spent.
I got over $20k.
If you're poor and have nothing, It seems like a lot, but it's nothing compared to the millions of dollars some people fraudulently received.
Why does everyone talk like there was a one-time stimulus paycheck, and coyly forget to mention the extended unemployment that went on for months and months, to the point where people were better-off not working and collecting the enhanced unemployment a long time?
I'm not saying whether or not JP Morgan's CEO is on the money here, but I just find it weird how often this comment pops up - and as a top comment on *Economics.*
Its just as a guess but, I find it hard to believe anyone who got covid era unemployment is still floating along on that money.
Also, on a complete tangent, its seems deeply contradictory to the comments about most poor to middle class Americans just not being good at managing their finances. If that many people managed to save that unemployment for so long that this headline could be written, then clearly we are a nation of budgeting wizards
Whenever covid is brought up, everyone neglects to mention the unemployment benefits which were absolutely insane relative to normal unemployment benefits (in GA at least)
True and while everyone was sitting on their ass chilling I was working in the amazon warehouse.
I got to be eSsEnTiAl and any time I mention this people who got a free vacation trash me.
I’d rather have been chilling too
I was working in fast food at the time and it was absolute hell with our sales being higher than ever and being so low staffed that the few of us working did 50+ hour weeks and the job of 3-5 people. Both issues were from the unemployment packages that people were getting (and receiving like 3 times my pay lol). People have no idea how much a slap in the face that was for people who had to continue working and didn't get fired or laid off for unemployment.
I worked liquor retail (deemed essential in my area), and can tell you that a disgusting amount of that unemployment assistance went towards purchasing more expensive hard liquor. The store I was working for at the time made money hand over fist, I got to enforce mask mandates on angry suburbanites.
Yeah that sounds horrible and you’re one of the only people to not chastise me for my opinion.
Thank you for being there for people like me who were also working. I know I’ve been to a fast food place at 4am and it was slammed during covid but I also worked nights.
I'm in a pretty typical middle class family of 4 and probably got in the ballpark of around $20,000 even without enhanced unemployment.
In my situation, there were multiple rounds of stimulus that included additional money for children, the child tax credits, USDA money for having kids in virtual school, and local income tax waivers. All that stuff added up.
It's because the doomers aren't interested in facts.
The typical family got $12,000 in stimulus checks. 75% of people who were unemployed received more in unemployment than they did working. People didn't have to pay student loans for 3+ years.
This, plus the fact that you couldn't go out to eat or take vacations, made it so a lot of people actually saved up a decent amount of money.
But, yeah, according to the doomers there was only one $1400 stimulus check.
Yeah, another clueless billionaire thinking the peasants have nothing to complain about. Like those ancient politicians who say things like “with $1200 they can buy a car or remodel their kitchen”.
As much as people like to call clueless or out of touch, this is an economics sub, you do realize he (JPM) has a disgusting amount of financial data on millions upon millions Americans. I don’t think he’s as out of touch as you or many people simply hive-minding reddit popular opinions. At an individual level, stimulus has come and gone, without a doubt. However, from a deposits perspective on the banks balance sheet, it’s entirely possible that deposits / checking accounts etc have gone up and stayed up. Look at the money supply, there’s simply more of it. The Covid effects went beyond stimulus. Spending habits have changed, and idk about you but once a checking account hits a certain number, you want to keep it there. WFH is much more prevalent today. That’s an indirect raise. More cooking at home. As a result, larger deposits. I would be willing to bet money that JD monitors deposits closely. Hell, I’m sure they have us categorized based on net worth, income, spending habits, etc. he did say something about the bottom 20%. To me, that says he’s got customers categorized.
Not to mention, A LOT of the stimulus checks went to paying off debt. The whole issue is that inflation and outlandish housing costs pretty quickly wiped that away. And now people are in even more debt.
It would be cool if instead of just using headlines as a way of talking about whatever your little pet subject matters are we actually did good sourcing
This article and your comment are a prime example. The article is trash. It quotes a single line off a podcast then talks about how TikTok comments responded to the comment.
So we aren’t even listening to the full context of his statement on the podcast. No idea if he’s sighting any source for this. Maybe he’s correct I have no clue and I don’t know what his full statement was bc I didn’t listen to the podcast and again the article is trash.
Then you come along and basically do what the TikTok commenters did lol.
The whole thing is trash from start to finish. Poor media literacy, bad reporting, bad article, only reading headline, not even bothering to check if he’s right or what he’s sourcing or if he sources anything or even checking the original source the podcast, just taking about what you want to talk about in relation to the headline
It’s all just worthless tbh
Edit: I actually did click into the sourcing and there’s a transcript. I found the comment he’s making and so here it is -
Jamie Dimon: Yeah. You have to look a little bit in context. The consumer's in pretty good shape right now. Unemployment's under 4%, it's been there for two years. They still have excess money from COVID. If you go back to looking at the amount of money that was spent during COVID, it was $6 trillion. Through various means and various programs, they're still spending it down. Housing prices are up, stock prices are up, jobs are plentiful, wages are fine going up at the low end. The consumer's in pretty good shape.
So he is actually citing figures. I don’t know what the 6 trillion number is or what “spending it down” means but I bet you don’t either. Maybe you should look into it, again before just using the headline to blurt out whatever pet subject matter you want to talk about.
Like what is that 6 trillion spending, is that ppp loans? I have no clue but probably neither do you.
It’s one banana, Michael.
These people truly have no idea how normal people live, do they? It’s stunning to me that they believe people still have money from four years ago. How does this even make logical sense? Even if you received the maximum in stimulus funds and benefits, with the cost of rent and groceries, how can an individual stretch that couple thousand dollars over three to four years?
Of course you don’t have that money, idiot. The institution managing your high growth equity fund manages your money from 4 weeks ago. You don’t keep that money liquid. Everyone knows that you immediately put that monthly trust fund money in another account to grow for you.
Stop trying to trick people (Russian agent!) into thinking the economy is bad! The market is doing amazing! Everyone is getting rich!
> These people truly have no idea how normal people live, do they?
I think it's because the reality of this economy is not a bell-curve... it's a bi-modal distribution (two hump-camel). What you have are two groups... first, a large number of 55-75 year olds who have record high savings, investment portfolios, and equity in their homes... doing extremely well but want to bitch about eggs costing $2 more, but they can absolutely afford it - they're just terrified of being on fixed incomes (read: social security which they correctly believe will not rise enough to keep pace with inflation - meanwhile they sit on the golden egg). And then you have people 45 and under who do NOT have savings, still hold student loan debt, many floating credit card debt they should not, stuck in a non-ideal / starter home (if they're lucky) or renting and now completely locked out from the market.
When you average out these two realities, numbers look fine. I can understand why an executive or economist looking at medians and averages thinks things are just fine and keep selling that story. But when you take a closer look at cohorts by age, you see a much more nuanced picture.
Ya he is talking about statistics. reddit can't comprehend that because they are busy complaining about living in the richest country in history while being wildly unsuccessful.
> richest country in the world while being wildly unsuccessful
Meaningless if it's not widespread and equitable.
Someday this pompous attitude will catch up to you.
According to "statistics," our personal savings hasn't been this low since 2007-2008: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT
Mar 2008: 2.9
Aug 2008: 3.1
March 2024: 3.2
Go find me a point on that chart where it's been this low since the 2008 financial crisis.
How are you ignoring the spike during COVID that is being referenced. The money saved at that time is what is being spent...the chart supports the comments.
They have access to data for 50 million+ Americans and see exactly how much money they earn, save and spend. They know how people live way better than people online who only know their personal condition.
I think there’s also a disconnect between what people like Jamie Dimon mean when they say “in good shape” and what a regular person means. To a regular person, “in good shape” means they’re feeling ok about being able to afford things, save for the future, provide a good life for their families, etc. But people like Jamie Dimon mean “they still have some money we can suck out of them.” They are looking purely at the “what can we get out of these numbers on a spreadsheet” perspective rather than how the average person is actually feeling about their life and financial situation.
I think it’s Oklahoma the Average monthly cost of living per person since 2020 has gone up $1000 a month while pay has gone down. This was from a Republican representative. So none of what he’s claiming makes sense unless you look at it from the Lens of corporations are considered people since citizens United.
They mean Americans like them. Those that received tax breaks and massive PPP loans and had them forgiven. Those are the Americans they are talking about. The rest of us are just the rabble.
They have every idea but hardship is less profitable. They are purposely looking at surface level balances only and ignoring data about income, rents, mortgages, groceries, medical bills, etc.
> These people truly have no idea how normal people live, do they?
Of fucking course they do. They're a massive bank collecting obscene amounts of data on exactly how much money you have, how much you spend, and how much you make.
This sub has become such a fucking ridiculous place. They have the data to say that the average American consumer is strong. That doesn't apply to literally everyone, but it applies to a lot of them.
if you listen to the full interview he says the lower and middle class have already run through their covid money but there is still plenty in the upper class. Nothing but ragebait/clickbait here
ya, i dont remember if he specifies a percent but i would imagine 4% or higher. lots of ppp loans for business owners. literal millions that got forgiven and the money never fully got spent
ppp loans from the government, often in the hundreds of thousands to millions. they were given to businesses to keep them afloat, many did not need them, and years later most were forgiven. that cash is just sitting in those business bank accounts, inflating business owner equity and therefore wealth
Jamie Dimon got me. I’m still spending down my $2000 covid relief check from Jan 2021. After 40 months, I still have a few hundred left since inflation has been so good to me. I’ve only needed to spend $39/month on food, rent, and gas for a family of 4.
No.
I mean the amount of money people saved when their expenses decreased during Covid.
It has already been shared several times in this sub and thread about how savings rates increased drastically during Covid. Feel free to look it up.
EDIT: Here is the data from the Federal Reserve
https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/excess-savings-during-the-covid-19-pandemic-20221021.html
>No.
>I mean the amount of money people saved when their expenses decreased during Covid.
>It has already been shared several times in this sub and thread about how savings rates increased drastically during Covid. Feel free to look it up.
I did and it appears there is some confusion here.
First result searching "COVID savings" on this sub...
>Covid changed how we spend: More YOLO splurging **but less saving**
https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/s/6nqI25skPZ
Second result agrees with you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/s/EeIVJO4CGN
Top comment on that thread...
>And yet every other article says that vast majority of Americans, even upper middle class with 6 figure incomes are living paycheck to paycheck. Where did that savings go?
I wouldn't be so confident in your opinion.
Here you go. Data from the Federal Reserve.
You really need to get better at fact checking.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/excess-savings-during-the-covid-19-pandemic-20221021.html
This data doesn’t include 2023. The savings are seen going on a clear down trend by the end of 2022. Actually going below pre pandemic levels. This document states the saving was mostly created by social distancing and not using the amenities they once were for most along with interests rates. . Also mentioned an increase in spending toward the end of 2022. Doesn’t really tell us anything about the situation today.
This is what I really love on this sub.
This data is from the Federal reserve, it is literally as good as it gets. It undoubtedly shows that you're wrong, but you nit picked one thing and used that to act like his source was wrong, and therefore you are correct. You doomers are hilarious
The data is from the Federal Reserve.
Please feel free to share a better source, but I doubt one exists.
Also, the point of this data was to discuss savings rates during Covid.
Note that these are savings rates as a percentage, not total savings in dollars.
As long as the savings rate is positive, average total savings are increasing.
I’m discussing saving rates as of right now because the CEO is mentioning being in good shape and still having money left over NOW. Like… TODAY. I’m trying to say that the “study” provided is not recent enough to effectively back up his claim. I’m not saying it’s a bad source straight up. If you want to try to make it relevant to today, we could say that we could CLEARLY see the savings line on a downtrend dropping below pre pandemic levels. That is a bad thing! Which is why it’s not unreasonable to say that this could indicate we might be a little worse off now.
The original story posted on the sub doesn’t even tell us why the CEO made his statement or what made him think that was the case. Especially considering how he was also seen saying how inflation could remain high and could further harm the U.S economy if it continues. Then which one is it? Are we in a good situation or not?😂
Also, here is another article that references this current federal reserve article but makes an assertion that seems to counter the CEO’s statement.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/living-paycheck-to-paycheck-statistics-2024/
Edit: just realized you were making the point that the commenter above was saying we didn’t save at all and it was false. Whoops
There are 6 trillion dollars in money market funds alone just chilling and collecting 5% risk free. There is a reason why all the restaurants are packed and all the vacation spots are booked way above pre covid levels.
What’s funny to me is these same people claim that it was covid checks that caused inflation.
Too many dollars chasing too few goods, so prices went up. Okay…let’s ignore elasticity in what should be an easily scalable market given the access to global goods and labor, and a million other issues I have with inflation this time around and say, maybe. For the sake of not arguing, okay. It was the measly $2000 checks that caused inflation…globally.
Now though, they say that people still have this money. Okay…but, in that case, where did the too many dollars come from if everyone’s still holding them?
Also, you’re now saying the fed hiking rates haven’t even been able to drain $2000 from the bottom 50% of Americans “savings”.
Make it make sense!!
He is completely out of touch with middle-class America. Insurance costs have risen, power bills have increased, and food prices have increased as well as transportation, childcare, rent, or mortgage payments. Wages have not increased enough to counter the prices surging.
This guy has had some very stupid takes for the past couple years. He's so out of touch.
I honestly have no idea why people are still letting him give interviews.
> He is completely out of touch with middle-class America.
He's looking at hard data that his bank has on how much people are spending and saving. That is a lot more viable data than some cynical echo chamber on reddit.
Cool, so he has data showing credit card and auto loan delinquencies surged 50% in 2023 and delinquencies are presently at worst level since 2012?
Neat, I wonder how he came to such a positive outlook in lieu of that data.
>and delinquencies are presently at worst level since 2012?
It's really hard to look at [this chart](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DRCCLACBS) of delinquencies and conclude that things are bad. They look pretty good to me.
>Neat, I wonder how he came to such a positive outlook in lieu of that data.
Maybe he actually looked at the data? Instead of cherry picking to make things look bad?
I think you underestimate the amount of information a large bank has. They know more than anyone else in terms of consumer patterns. They don’t just look at one pattern they look at them all. They can see how much you’re spending on vacations vs necessary items like groceries. Everyone talks about technology companies data but banks know every financial decision you make.
Your graph shows an almost flatline the last few years while just about everyone I know is complaining how costs have risen in the same time period. We’re not talking about 10-15 years here but the last 3-4 years.
Made just enough to not need a $2000 check. Have student loans but didn’t fit that bucket either. Never got PPP loans. Aka was middle class. Living pay check to pay check now. I can’t win with democratic OR republican fiscal breaks.
I’m okay with not winning them, as long as they aren’t going to fucking Jamie Dimon. What kind of horse shit is that, richest people in the world getting handouts was unbelievable. And we’re on track to vote for it again.
Same. My wife and I are nurses. Made just enough not to even get a stimmy check. Worked my ass off during COVID. Watched my mother and father in law who are multi millionaires get checks because they are wealthy on paper but have “Lower income”. But that pales in comparison to PPP loan fraud.
He’s talking about the people who hoarded all the loan-free money.
Yes they still have it. They invested it with JP Morgan and are living off the interest.
He's not.
Read the article.
>[Jamie Dimon: Yeah. You have to look a little bit in context. The consumer's in pretty good shape right now. Unemployment's under 4%, it's been there for two years. They still have excess money from COVID. If you go back to looking at the amount of money that was spent during COVID, it was $6 trillion. Through various means and various programs, they're still spending it down. Housing prices are up, stock prices are up, jobs are plentiful, wages are fine going up at the low end. The consumer's in pretty good shape.](https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/jp-morgan-ceo-jamie-dimon-on-what-next-for-the-economy/88c92388-fbb0-4194-bc05-13cceea3e64b)
He's not talking about the poor Americans.... The ones that got $1,500 or whatever... He's talking about the rich Americans that got thousands , or hundreds of thousands of dollars... Those are the ones driving the economy forward...
He's not.
Read the article.
>[Jamie Dimon: Yeah. You have to look a little bit in context. The consumer's in pretty good shape right now. Unemployment's under 4%, it's been there for two years. They still have excess money from COVID. If you go back to looking at the amount of money that was spent during COVID, it was $6 trillion. Through various means and various programs, they're still spending it down. Housing prices are up, stock prices are up, jobs are plentiful, wages are fine going up at the low end. The consumer's in pretty good shape.](https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/jp-morgan-ceo-jamie-dimon-on-what-next-for-the-economy/88c92388-fbb0-4194-bc05-13cceea3e64b)
It's actually ridiculous. I hope some people are able to see their own biases but on this reddit I doubt it. If they were arguing about Biden they would make the argument that the economy is strong and unemployment is low and the middle class is doing better. But like you said when a CEO says the same thing he's wrong.
The middle class isn’t in good shape so I’m not middle class.
The lower class isn’t in good shape…. so I’m not lower class.
The upper class is in great shape…. wait why did no one tell me I’m upper class??
If you only got $1500 in stimulus, you are one of the rich americans.
Typical families with kids got $12,000; if the kids were in school they may have received $20,000.
Unemployment paid more than working for 75% of the unemployed. And student loans were paused for more than 3+ years.
Most stats indicate that the average family still has excess savings from Covid. It wasn’t just the stimulus coming in, but mostly a product of consumption plummeting.
Who exactly is he speaking about when he says Americans "still have money from COVID"? If it's those who took PPP loans and were forgiven then yeah sure but a majority of Americans even if they did receive Covid stimulus checks are not necessarily in good shape financially whatever that means.
During covid people saved more money due to expenditures being down. People were spending much less on things like going out for food, going to entertainment activities, vacation, etc.
Also noteworthy that many people made substantially more money during the pandemic while not working. In my state if you made under ~70k at your job you would have had a higher income from unemployment until they dropped the additional stipend - and even then many people made more money from it.
More income and lower expenses means more savings.
Most comments are about the rich. In shitcago they were claiming ppp loans with the help of the local govt con artists to create a business that didn’t exist so they could claim 10-20k.
There was a lot of grifting - because the lawmakers are dumbasses.
And grifters are gonna grift.
Yes inflation is high and many are feeling pinched but he's not wrong here. People are still buying cars, taking flights, buying discretionary non essential items/toys, still dining out and the vacation sector both within the USA and popular American travel destinations like the caribbean/cruises/Mexico/Europe is still very hot. This is a large reason that inflation has been so hard to combat.
Are people still spending the $2K they got in 2021? Definitely not. However, many people did not spend money they normally would during covid on a vacation, car, event etc and are spending that cash now. Unemployment is still very low. There are big tech sector layoffs, but there aren't layoffs across-the-board. As of right now, the American economy is still going strong.
When most people get to a point that they are in a bad financial situation and tight on cash, they stop spending money on discretionary goods and services. This causes the businesses that deal in that sector to cut costs, and reduce staff, etc. etc. and we start into a recession. At some point a recession will happen (it always does) but we aren't there yet.
I cringe everytime I hear an "expert" talk about how Americans are still spending their Covid stimulus money.
Like dude, 80% of that cash went directly towards rent or paying off debt within the first 2 months it was handed out.
Completely out of touch.
this sub has really fallen extremely far. it's sad. it shouldn't even be called /r/economics anymore. it's a cynical echo chamber where people pretend the banks that are collecting all their financial data don't know their financial situation.
0% of the people in here are qualified to make an assumption on the financial stability of ‘most Americans’. The perspective of most people here is how they are doing individually and how the people in their small circle are doing, and therefore assume most Americans must live like them.
An article dedicating a third of its space to comments on social media when it could instead be providing information and context is just plain garbage journalism.
Does anyone think that a billionaire knows how the average American is doing? They only look at the data presented to them by their lackeys. I must disagree with him based on the people around me who are struggling to make ends meet. It’s great for the CC companies who are getting 22% on the trillion plus in debt people are racking up due to costs outpacing income.
“Regular people will continue to be priced out of the housing market through high interest rates as long as the majority of Americans have a positive balance in their bank accounts”
He's not wrong... "Good shape" means we all haven't died yet or lost our homes/jobs so there still is a few nickels in our pockets they can collectively take...
Most of these big bank guys don't know what is going on in the real public.
Basing anything that these guys say as accurately depicting the present or future is financial suicide.
What these guys are good at are finding arbitrage schemes. That's it.
Paper, trading paper and making a few points on top. Not the real world of making stuff.
> Most of these big bank guys don't know what is going on in the real public.
Actually they know it better than almost anyone else other than possibly the Fed, because they're the ones collecting (and monetizing) the data about the general public's spending and saving habits.
JP Morgan doubled my interest rates on my (and everyone else’s) credit cards the minute the fed raised rates in 2022 despite never having made a late payment. This guy is full of shit. So tired of the misdirection he constantly plants in the media to hide the fact that he is price gouging people.
When a Big Mac is not big and costs more than $10 for a meal, you really gotta wonder how far these CEO’s reach into their ass to pull out the dumbest shit you’ve ever read.
I just can't fathom the amount of evil and hate these people have for us. They really just look at us like little bugs that they allow to have things, but not even because I don't even hate bugs. Fuck them.
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Maybe he’s talking about those people that received massive PPP loans that were forgiven because I can’t imagine how $2000 given to low income people managed to remain unspent given the incredible inflation that has happened since then..
Crazy how 80% went of ppp money went to people in the top 20% of wealth. Same shit every recession. Bail out garbage companies with tax payer money so they don't fire people, they fire people anyway, and then split the handout between their ceos. Then they'll use their wealth to veto any bill that helps actual people. Tale as old as time.
The amount of local businesses in my area that I know spent money on nothing to do with their business is laughable. I could investigate the whole process and not sure why anyone hasn't. Owners buying 2nd homes, etc.
We had a restraunatuer purchase a brand new Corvette during lockdown while decrying that no one wanted to work. After he deliberately laid off a bunch of staff. He also flaunted COVID lockdown rules in the bar he owned. When he was cited for this he threw a massive social media tantrum. Then he threatened the county health officials with physical violence. Then he organized an antilockdown protest directly outside the head county health officials home where the protestors *threatened her children*. Guess what consequences he faced?
I’d say take it public, but I have a feeling it’s already well known.
He went to jail m. Right? Right? Please say he went to jail
Close. He was elected president of the city's Chamber of Commerce! Fuck you, Mike Hope.
Bozeman?
Bozeman?
Some people just don’t deserve their skin.
Salaries of everyone cut by 25% or something (whatever the government max cut was)… dude drives in with a 150k car purchase that was just the newer year of their old car. They didn’t seem to have a shred of a sense of the irony. Oh also broke every Covid lockdown law possible. Forced in office work. No masking requirements. Same room meetings again no masking. Bought stolen vaccine cards and made them up for employees that didn’t want the vax so they could work with clients that required vaxed staffing. Gave me covid. Gave a large group of employees covid by having a person *known* to have covid who reported their covid to them work with others in close proximity without telling those other people.
I would say "Oh my God, are you from my town?? I know that guy!!" but I know that every town and city had that guy, and more likely many of them.
No no no you don't understand. The money given by PPP DID go to the (remaining) employees. All THAT money was reinvested into the company and (cut) staff. It was all the revenue that they used for the other stuff. Their hard(ly) earned money that came in from doing buisnes. It just so happens to also be nearly the exact same amount of money that the government gave them. Maybe if you were better at strapping boots or something, you could be wildly successful, too.
All those poor liquor stores that struggled during the pandemic. What ever would they have done if the taxpayers didn’t pay their payroll for 2 years. /s
Agree, everyone I know in my small town that received a business payout upgraded their homes/moved to larger homes during COVID .
The owner of the company I work at took 15 million in PPP loans, forced us back to work last minute so that he qualified for forgiveness and then sold the company for 30 million
My childhood neighbors, probably the wealthiest family in a 3 county area, got a $500k PPP loan forgiven for just one of their Chevy dealerships. They own a number of brand-new vehicle dealerships as well as a trite business, hotel businesses, a gym, and massive gas lease holdings. All-in, I bet they got $1.5 to 2.5 million handed to them when their fortune was already around $100,000,000.
>I could investigate the whole process and not sure why anyone hasn't There was outright fraud but because most of it was done legally. Money was given out pay employees even if the business was not losing any money. That money was indeed spent on payroll so nothing here was illegal.
But the money will trickle down!!!!!! BS. They used most of that money for stock buybacks.
My previous employer used it for two new cars, remodeled their home, and vacation. Oh and then they sold their business 8 months later lol
Which is illegal and you can/should report them. While a lot of the money did go for fucked up shit like this, that was part of trying to get it out the door quickly given the situation. They are working hard on clawing back as much as they can that went to BS like that and prosecuting those who did when it makes sense. Source: work in a bank back office and file reports on those people as we see them, and get requests for more information about them fairly regularly.
Can you provide info/a link where we can report people who abused PPP?
https://www.justice.gov/disaster-fraud/webform/ncdf-disaster-complaint-form
Did they ever say to WHO it would trickle down to?
their kids.
To whom* I am not a bot, this wasn’t automatic.
> I am not a bot; this wasn’t automatic. i am not a comma splice bot.
In this case, where the article is indefinite, it would actually be "whomst"
A bot would have known that. It’s a shame I wasn’t corrected by one.
Bad bot! 🤖 **🔔 shame, shame 🔔**
They also turned housing into airbnBS
It trickles down to the c level anf investors. The people that make their jobs possible get nothing. Sometimes, they get laid off but the c level still gets a new vacation home or yacht.
I'm a small, maybe, medium-sized business. I opened 2 more locations with my covid money. That's about 30 jobs and a ton of tax revenue. Almost all the money went to local contractors to build them out too. Paying about 50k in sales tax a month + all my payroll taxes. I'd say the government got a great investment from the 250k I got
You’re not the problem. Huge corporations getting that free cash are. You don’t sound like a public company using aid to small businesses to buy back stocks. You sound like exactly the company who deserved it! Kudos to you!
Good on ya for doing what you were supposed to with that money. May you have more fortune in the future
If you shit on a hill, shit rolls downhill. If you piss on a hill, piss trickles down. If you drop money on a hill, the vultures at JP Morgan swoop in and steal it. Waiting around to be trickled on has never been a viable path to financial independence.
The money will trickle down to the yacht dealer or the Ferrari dealership or the investment banker.
Also how many people knew of a company or someone that took the money and used it for vacation? Or just closed down anyway and used it to keep themselves afloat.
Its interesting how its justified too. There was an emergency which create the need to pass something, anything, as a stop gap, without wasting critical time to understanding the cost and inequity. Those would be figured out later. But after the emergency, all political will was lost to address any of the issues, and so it has just been accepted as a one time, historically large transfer of wealth from the working class to high net worth business owners.
You’re going to have a hard time convincing me it wasn’t all deliberate
That’s because it was deliberate
They’ve been waiting a long time to do something like that and COVID gave them a good excuse. I don’t know about you but I didn’t get to shelter in place for two years. The good news was that there was very little traffic.
> They’ve been waiting a long time to do something like that and COVID gave them a good excuse this is basically [shock doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine): > This centers on the exploitation of national crises (disasters or upheavals) to establish controversial and questionable policies, while citizens are too distracted (emotionally and physically) to engage and develop an adequate response and resist effectively
Of course it was. Didn’t Trump dismiss the group that was set to oversee the Covid relief funding right before opening the spigot?
Ppp forgiveness money to the rich = wise economics, good for economy, no moral hazard, no effect on inflation. Student loan forgiveness for the middle class = terrible economics, moral hazard, awful for the economy, major cause of inflation (even if it didn’t happen).
You shouldn’t assume malice when stupidity is sufficient to explain it
Oh those stupid rich people, accidentally fumbling a program that gives low-interest loans specifically to large companies, then has those loans forgiven. Oh what a huge mistake
Not just companies, millions were taken and forgiven for gop members. I remember the Biden administration making a video with all Republicans that took that money, surprised it didn't circulate more, I want them to be called out by name and amount they stole from tax payers
Jared & Ivanka, the former treasury secretary, MTG, and that's just a few.
You see the case to have the forgiveness to canceled? It was insane. The 2 people and company that backed them had like 750k in ppp loans forgiven between the 3 of them. Their arguments were like watching 2 toddlers try to tattle on each other, but somehow they won. These people are sick, man. They'll sign a 1 trillion dollar deal to 'stimulate' their buddies but then scream about wasting money on education or even k-12 free lunches
The only interesting part is we had dozens of Democrats calling this out while the legislation was still up for a vote, trying to amend it to include accountability and consequences for fraud, which the GOP struck down. Everyone pointed out that every previous study suggested that it would be far better to give the money to the working class to spend in their communities to keep the economy running instead of giving it to the rich and trusting them to pass it all down to their employees. Every study I have seen since then has concluded that this was a disastrous policy that transferred tremendous wealth from the working class to the people that needed it the least and did not trickle down much at all. So there is no debate here. It's just every sane and sensible person pointing out the obvious while all of the right wing grifters and Robber Barons and their bootlickers avoid the topic and pretend it didn't happen and isn't causing problems to this day. How the fuck can so many people be so aware of how fucked all of this is and get we can't do a goddamn thing about it? How can the scummiest, most dishonest, and most sociopathic people in the country just pretend none of this is true and face absolutely no consequences for what was either a collosal fuckup or malicious class warfare? It's like watching a Wall Street Banker or Republican politician shoot people and take their wallets and purses and they just get to go about their day and keep the money they looted if they pretend it never happened. And this is a direct analogy because **people did die during the pandemic because of shit like being forced to go to work while infections were high in their area.** And the next time some ridiculous legislation like this comes along, all of these silent psychopaths that are playing pretend and avoiding the topic will sprint to be the first to set the narrative in the public discourse. They'll sit there and argue with all the same shitty logic they used to push PPP loans while continuing to ignore anyone that calls them out over those loans. The single biggest problem in America is how our worst people get to run their mouths and get people hurt or killed and then pretend it never happened until they get another opportunity to do it again. So they just keep fucking doing it. Over and over again. The same arguments. With the same results. It's like basic evidence and logic doesn't apply to them at all. They get to live their lives as if their fantasies are just as valid as everyone else's realities.
it was the same story in 2008 - Jon Stewart was shockingly the only person on TV (that I recall) actually asking the question "Maybe instead of giving all the money to the failing banks, can't we spend the same money on average Americans paying off their debts? The banks get money and stay solvent, and the people see relief too - at the same cost in terms of the US debt or inflation etc." He'd ask this of top members of the Obama admin, and always humbly add things like "I'm not an economist" and "maybe this is stupid" but the response was routinely just surprise, and admission that maybe that could have worked. It's just like our political leadership really has no idea to think about the needs of the average American.
> It's like basic evidence and logic doesn't apply to them at all. It doesn't really. Because there are never consequences.
>How the fuck can so many people be so aware of how fucked all of this is and get we can't do a goddamn thing about it? I don't think most people are aware of it though. And those that are, are more likely to have positioned themselves to benefit from it. Most people who got the individual stimulus probably think they were net beneficiaries because they received some >0 nominal amount of money. Their employer who may have gotten a 6 or 7 figure PPP check isn't incentivized to tell their employees that.
Yeah most regular working people aren’t paying attention to these things, they just care about their personal situation. My mind is still always blown when people don’t know things that I think are common knowledge.
One time transfer is right. I’m 62 years old and I’ve been watching since the republicans duped the populace into the trickle down scam back in the 80’s.
It's just plain old Disaster Capitalism: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Shock\_Doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine)
And now we have large uncompetitive conglomerates that control huge swathes of the market share. They make poor products at high prices and the consumer has no choice among any of them. The government created this, and this is what we get.
The top government is bought out by corporations.
Yup, they should have to wear jackets to show their sponsors like nascar.
Many self employed business owners got $20-$50k to not fire themselves while they took 3 months off…
I went freelance just last year and have my own company. If I’d had my LLC in 2020, I bet I would not have applied for a loan because I don’t “need” it and wouldn’t have wanted to pay something back. But as you can see I’m an honest sucker. All the swinging Richard’s out there just said “yeah I need $250k, stat” and they all just got it forgiven. And used it to buy a pickup truck and new hot tub.
I have an LLC I haven’t used in years but when the PPP loans came out the bank I used was literally spamming me, begging me to take out the loan. Of course I didn’t, but it was a free for all at the time and so many people got massive handouts for nothing.
everybody saw it coming when oversight was eliminated
Same shit except this time is was the largest quantitative easing in history. M2 charts are insane
> 80% went of ppp money went to people in the top 20% of wealth Are those stats confirmed, or are you guesstimating? TBH I would have expected a higher percentage of the money to have gone to a smaller percentage of people at the top.
You don't understand the ppp program. If people were fired the loans were not forgivable
Small business I worked for during COVID received $40k in PPP loans, and I never saw a dime of it, because they did not lose much, if any business during COVID. Hell, they would boast about how well they were doing. Just saw this week, they have a gofund me going for $25k in legal fees. No idea what for, but man do I want to know.
The PPP loans were a lifesaver for my small business - we had 5 employees and worked in the live event space so obviously covid was murder. We were able to keep our employees on staff and survive. No corvettes or other frills.
The airlines are charities at this point. Socialize losses privatize profits to an insane degree.
Largest wealth transfer in history. PPP lined the pockets of wealthy individuals. Many other SBA loans actually went to businesses that were actually just broken up divisions of larger corporations that would never in a million years be considered small businesses. Not to mention the massive amount of fraudulent loans that will never be discovered due to the sheer volume of applicants. The Fed's massive injection of cash combined with zeroed interest rates drove a massive spike in inflation and corporate stock buybacks while forcing legit small businesses out of business as larger corporations consolidated market share thanks to their access to the cash window and ability to better absorb temporary crashes in demand. Meanwhile, consumer debt levels went through the roof, a fifth of US homes were bought up by institutional investors, and house prices/rents, energy bills, and healthcare costs soared. Now, credit has tightened, prices of everything continue to rise, the dollar's buying power has tanked, and the US is paying more interest than ever just to service its debt. The federal response to COVID was basically the equivalent of a husband or wife maxing out their credit card, opening another one in their in their kid's name and maxing it out, forcing the kid to quit their job, and then sticking them with the bill. Gen Z should be livid.
He’s talking about people that make a decent salary and don’t have to make choices between buying their kids new shoes or replacing the tires on their car. Those people saved money during covid because they weren’t commuting to work, they weren’t dry cleaning their work clothes, they couldn’t take expensive vacations and their kids were remote, so they weren’t buying sports equipment etc. etc. Those people still have more savings than they did before Covid. He’s not really concerned about the people who have to pay fees to use his bank.
They also didn't have to make student loan payments for 3+ years.
And now that the Department of Education is finally honoring promises made to students that went into public service and made 10 years of payments - some will not have to pay student loans ever again.
That’s exactly who he’s talking about. Friends. Acquaintances. Business partners. They had money before, they continued to make it during Covid, some got a bump in their wealth from the assets they already owned, and now some of us are renting our homes from them too, in my case. But, no, the hourly workers do not have money, and they didn’t before. They won’t have it tomorrow. I’m not saying nothing has changed. Far from that. The distance between the haves and have nots is just much wider now.
Lots of upper income folks still have covid savings - cancelled luxury vacations, started working from home so fewer designer clothes/tailoring/dry cleaning, and cars were harder to get anyway, so held off on that new Mercedes, housing market bad so stayed put and did some remodels instead of buying a bigger fancier house. And if you aren’t in that category Jamie cannot imagine your existence.
The working class and poor don’t exist as real humans to someone like him. They are just another economic variable that can be adjusted and manipulated for ‘economic efficiency’. If profit margins and wealth inequality continue to rise then ‘economic efficiency’ is improving.
maybe those lazy poors should have "bootstrapped" and "tried harder" you see so easy! /s
I didn't get any PPP loans but I bought a bed for the first time ever, I got some shoes and clothes.
He’s talking about additional savings people have from the Covid period. On average, expenditures went way down during Covid and savings rates went way up. He’s referring to that additional savings has not been completely spent.
I got over $20k. If you're poor and have nothing, It seems like a lot, but it's nothing compared to the millions of dollars some people fraudulently received.
Why does everyone talk like there was a one-time stimulus paycheck, and coyly forget to mention the extended unemployment that went on for months and months, to the point where people were better-off not working and collecting the enhanced unemployment a long time? I'm not saying whether or not JP Morgan's CEO is on the money here, but I just find it weird how often this comment pops up - and as a top comment on *Economics.*
Its just as a guess but, I find it hard to believe anyone who got covid era unemployment is still floating along on that money. Also, on a complete tangent, its seems deeply contradictory to the comments about most poor to middle class Americans just not being good at managing their finances. If that many people managed to save that unemployment for so long that this headline could be written, then clearly we are a nation of budgeting wizards
Whenever covid is brought up, everyone neglects to mention the unemployment benefits which were absolutely insane relative to normal unemployment benefits (in GA at least)
True and while everyone was sitting on their ass chilling I was working in the amazon warehouse. I got to be eSsEnTiAl and any time I mention this people who got a free vacation trash me. I’d rather have been chilling too
I was working in fast food at the time and it was absolute hell with our sales being higher than ever and being so low staffed that the few of us working did 50+ hour weeks and the job of 3-5 people. Both issues were from the unemployment packages that people were getting (and receiving like 3 times my pay lol). People have no idea how much a slap in the face that was for people who had to continue working and didn't get fired or laid off for unemployment.
I worked liquor retail (deemed essential in my area), and can tell you that a disgusting amount of that unemployment assistance went towards purchasing more expensive hard liquor. The store I was working for at the time made money hand over fist, I got to enforce mask mandates on angry suburbanites.
Yeah that sounds horrible and you’re one of the only people to not chastise me for my opinion. Thank you for being there for people like me who were also working. I know I’ve been to a fast food place at 4am and it was slammed during covid but I also worked nights.
Was always happy to serve my fellow workers going through Hell at the time haha.
I'm in a pretty typical middle class family of 4 and probably got in the ballpark of around $20,000 even without enhanced unemployment. In my situation, there were multiple rounds of stimulus that included additional money for children, the child tax credits, USDA money for having kids in virtual school, and local income tax waivers. All that stuff added up.
It's because the doomers aren't interested in facts. The typical family got $12,000 in stimulus checks. 75% of people who were unemployed received more in unemployment than they did working. People didn't have to pay student loans for 3+ years. This, plus the fact that you couldn't go out to eat or take vacations, made it so a lot of people actually saved up a decent amount of money. But, yeah, according to the doomers there was only one $1400 stimulus check.
Yeah, another clueless billionaire thinking the peasants have nothing to complain about. Like those ancient politicians who say things like “with $1200 they can buy a car or remodel their kitchen”.
As much as people like to call clueless or out of touch, this is an economics sub, you do realize he (JPM) has a disgusting amount of financial data on millions upon millions Americans. I don’t think he’s as out of touch as you or many people simply hive-minding reddit popular opinions. At an individual level, stimulus has come and gone, without a doubt. However, from a deposits perspective on the banks balance sheet, it’s entirely possible that deposits / checking accounts etc have gone up and stayed up. Look at the money supply, there’s simply more of it. The Covid effects went beyond stimulus. Spending habits have changed, and idk about you but once a checking account hits a certain number, you want to keep it there. WFH is much more prevalent today. That’s an indirect raise. More cooking at home. As a result, larger deposits. I would be willing to bet money that JD monitors deposits closely. Hell, I’m sure they have us categorized based on net worth, income, spending habits, etc. he did say something about the bottom 20%. To me, that says he’s got customers categorized.
This is what I thought as well. Crazy how a billionaire thinks the peasants are doing alright.
Nah. MTG spent all of that money already.
You can’t imagine it because it’s so farfetched the mind just can’t with that bs.
Are you trying to tell me that the CEO of JP Morgan is out of touch with the majority of Americans?! /s
Not to mention, A LOT of the stimulus checks went to paying off debt. The whole issue is that inflation and outlandish housing costs pretty quickly wiped that away. And now people are in even more debt.
It would be cool if instead of just using headlines as a way of talking about whatever your little pet subject matters are we actually did good sourcing This article and your comment are a prime example. The article is trash. It quotes a single line off a podcast then talks about how TikTok comments responded to the comment. So we aren’t even listening to the full context of his statement on the podcast. No idea if he’s sighting any source for this. Maybe he’s correct I have no clue and I don’t know what his full statement was bc I didn’t listen to the podcast and again the article is trash. Then you come along and basically do what the TikTok commenters did lol. The whole thing is trash from start to finish. Poor media literacy, bad reporting, bad article, only reading headline, not even bothering to check if he’s right or what he’s sourcing or if he sources anything or even checking the original source the podcast, just taking about what you want to talk about in relation to the headline It’s all just worthless tbh Edit: I actually did click into the sourcing and there’s a transcript. I found the comment he’s making and so here it is - Jamie Dimon: Yeah. You have to look a little bit in context. The consumer's in pretty good shape right now. Unemployment's under 4%, it's been there for two years. They still have excess money from COVID. If you go back to looking at the amount of money that was spent during COVID, it was $6 trillion. Through various means and various programs, they're still spending it down. Housing prices are up, stock prices are up, jobs are plentiful, wages are fine going up at the low end. The consumer's in pretty good shape. So he is actually citing figures. I don’t know what the 6 trillion number is or what “spending it down” means but I bet you don’t either. Maybe you should look into it, again before just using the headline to blurt out whatever pet subject matter you want to talk about. Like what is that 6 trillion spending, is that ppp loans? I have no clue but probably neither do you.
Who tf has "excess money from covid"???
I got $1200, which is less than one month's rent on this studio :\
It’s one banana, Michael. These people truly have no idea how normal people live, do they? It’s stunning to me that they believe people still have money from four years ago. How does this even make logical sense? Even if you received the maximum in stimulus funds and benefits, with the cost of rent and groceries, how can an individual stretch that couple thousand dollars over three to four years?
I don't have money from 4 weeks ago. These people are so far removed from reality it would be dangerous to release them into the wild.
Of course you don’t have that money, idiot. The institution managing your high growth equity fund manages your money from 4 weeks ago. You don’t keep that money liquid. Everyone knows that you immediately put that monthly trust fund money in another account to grow for you. Stop trying to trick people (Russian agent!) into thinking the economy is bad! The market is doing amazing! Everyone is getting rich!
That’s actually true for me. All my checks get deposited in a high interest savings account.
Probably destructive to local ecosystems too
Or running things
> These people truly have no idea how normal people live, do they? I think it's because the reality of this economy is not a bell-curve... it's a bi-modal distribution (two hump-camel). What you have are two groups... first, a large number of 55-75 year olds who have record high savings, investment portfolios, and equity in their homes... doing extremely well but want to bitch about eggs costing $2 more, but they can absolutely afford it - they're just terrified of being on fixed incomes (read: social security which they correctly believe will not rise enough to keep pace with inflation - meanwhile they sit on the golden egg). And then you have people 45 and under who do NOT have savings, still hold student loan debt, many floating credit card debt they should not, stuck in a non-ideal / starter home (if they're lucky) or renting and now completely locked out from the market. When you average out these two realities, numbers look fine. I can understand why an executive or economist looking at medians and averages thinks things are just fine and keep selling that story. But when you take a closer look at cohorts by age, you see a much more nuanced picture.
I think he is talking about how savings rates increased during the pandemic, not the stimulus checks alone.
Ya he is talking about statistics. reddit can't comprehend that because they are busy complaining about living in the richest country in history while being wildly unsuccessful.
> richest country in the world while being wildly unsuccessful Meaningless if it's not widespread and equitable. Someday this pompous attitude will catch up to you.
Reddit is one gigantic anecdotal evidence fallacy
Reddit is the aggregation of the softest humans to have ever exist.
According to "statistics," our personal savings hasn't been this low since 2007-2008: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT Mar 2008: 2.9 Aug 2008: 3.1 March 2024: 3.2 Go find me a point on that chart where it's been this low since the 2008 financial crisis.
How are you ignoring the spike during COVID that is being referenced. The money saved at that time is what is being spent...the chart supports the comments.
That's a personal savings *rate*. If you had $100 in savings last month and a 3% rate you have $103 this month, still more than you had before.
As others mentioned, the savings rate chart is proving Dimon correct. You can see the huge spike in saving during COVID.
So, US is not sending its best to reddit.
$500/year ought to be enough for anyone (a hundred years ago).
According to the inflation calculator, $500 in 1924 is equivalent to $9,132 today. So it wasn't even enough 100 years ago.
$500/year ought to be enough for anyone (two hundred years ago).
They have access to data for 50 million+ Americans and see exactly how much money they earn, save and spend. They know how people live way better than people online who only know their personal condition.
I think there’s also a disconnect between what people like Jamie Dimon mean when they say “in good shape” and what a regular person means. To a regular person, “in good shape” means they’re feeling ok about being able to afford things, save for the future, provide a good life for their families, etc. But people like Jamie Dimon mean “they still have some money we can suck out of them.” They are looking purely at the “what can we get out of these numbers on a spreadsheet” perspective rather than how the average person is actually feeling about their life and financial situation.
I think it’s Oklahoma the Average monthly cost of living per person since 2020 has gone up $1000 a month while pay has gone down. This was from a Republican representative. So none of what he’s claiming makes sense unless you look at it from the Lens of corporations are considered people since citizens United.
What could it cost, 10 dollars?
that stimulus money was instantly gone when I got it lol, bills man
They mean Americans like them. Those that received tax breaks and massive PPP loans and had them forgiven. Those are the Americans they are talking about. The rest of us are just the rabble.
They have every idea but hardship is less profitable. They are purposely looking at surface level balances only and ignoring data about income, rents, mortgages, groceries, medical bills, etc.
They’re usually referring to buying power. Still that fade a couple years ago
> These people truly have no idea how normal people live, do they? Of fucking course they do. They're a massive bank collecting obscene amounts of data on exactly how much money you have, how much you spend, and how much you make. This sub has become such a fucking ridiculous place. They have the data to say that the average American consumer is strong. That doesn't apply to literally everyone, but it applies to a lot of them.
if you listen to the full interview he says the lower and middle class have already run through their covid money but there is still plenty in the upper class. Nothing but ragebait/clickbait here
and by upper class he mean the 4% of the population i guess?
ya, i dont remember if he specifies a percent but i would imagine 4% or higher. lots of ppp loans for business owners. literal millions that got forgiven and the money never fully got spent
What Covid money ? Extra savings ?
ppp loans from the government, often in the hundreds of thousands to millions. they were given to businesses to keep them afloat, many did not need them, and years later most were forgiven. that cash is just sitting in those business bank accounts, inflating business owner equity and therefore wealth
No, large portions of that money made its way into the housing market and stock market.
Jamie Dimon got me. I’m still spending down my $2000 covid relief check from Jan 2021. After 40 months, I still have a few hundred left since inflation has been so good to me. I’ve only needed to spend $39/month on food, rent, and gas for a family of 4.
He is clearly talking about America's increased savings rates during the pandemic, not the stimulus checks.
You mean the extra 4%APR for my $5K i got in the bank while my food costs have doubled …
No. I mean the amount of money people saved when their expenses decreased during Covid. It has already been shared several times in this sub and thread about how savings rates increased drastically during Covid. Feel free to look it up. EDIT: Here is the data from the Federal Reserve https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/excess-savings-during-the-covid-19-pandemic-20221021.html
>No. >I mean the amount of money people saved when their expenses decreased during Covid. >It has already been shared several times in this sub and thread about how savings rates increased drastically during Covid. Feel free to look it up. I did and it appears there is some confusion here. First result searching "COVID savings" on this sub... >Covid changed how we spend: More YOLO splurging **but less saving** https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/s/6nqI25skPZ Second result agrees with you. https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/s/EeIVJO4CGN Top comment on that thread... >And yet every other article says that vast majority of Americans, even upper middle class with 6 figure incomes are living paycheck to paycheck. Where did that savings go? I wouldn't be so confident in your opinion.
Here you go. Data from the Federal Reserve. You really need to get better at fact checking. https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/excess-savings-during-the-covid-19-pandemic-20221021.html
Fair...I wrote the comment too quickly without doing extra searching. I do see fed reports all confirming your statements
This data doesn’t include 2023. The savings are seen going on a clear down trend by the end of 2022. Actually going below pre pandemic levels. This document states the saving was mostly created by social distancing and not using the amenities they once were for most along with interests rates. . Also mentioned an increase in spending toward the end of 2022. Doesn’t really tell us anything about the situation today.
This is what I really love on this sub. This data is from the Federal reserve, it is literally as good as it gets. It undoubtedly shows that you're wrong, but you nit picked one thing and used that to act like his source was wrong, and therefore you are correct. You doomers are hilarious
The data is from the Federal Reserve. Please feel free to share a better source, but I doubt one exists. Also, the point of this data was to discuss savings rates during Covid. Note that these are savings rates as a percentage, not total savings in dollars. As long as the savings rate is positive, average total savings are increasing.
I’m discussing saving rates as of right now because the CEO is mentioning being in good shape and still having money left over NOW. Like… TODAY. I’m trying to say that the “study” provided is not recent enough to effectively back up his claim. I’m not saying it’s a bad source straight up. If you want to try to make it relevant to today, we could say that we could CLEARLY see the savings line on a downtrend dropping below pre pandemic levels. That is a bad thing! Which is why it’s not unreasonable to say that this could indicate we might be a little worse off now. The original story posted on the sub doesn’t even tell us why the CEO made his statement or what made him think that was the case. Especially considering how he was also seen saying how inflation could remain high and could further harm the U.S economy if it continues. Then which one is it? Are we in a good situation or not?😂 Also, here is another article that references this current federal reserve article but makes an assertion that seems to counter the CEO’s statement. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/living-paycheck-to-paycheck-statistics-2024/ Edit: just realized you were making the point that the commenter above was saying we didn’t save at all and it was false. Whoops
There are 6 trillion dollars in money market funds alone just chilling and collecting 5% risk free. There is a reason why all the restaurants are packed and all the vacation spots are booked way above pre covid levels.
Get out of here with your sensible interpretation of this quote. /s
What’s funny to me is these same people claim that it was covid checks that caused inflation. Too many dollars chasing too few goods, so prices went up. Okay…let’s ignore elasticity in what should be an easily scalable market given the access to global goods and labor, and a million other issues I have with inflation this time around and say, maybe. For the sake of not arguing, okay. It was the measly $2000 checks that caused inflation…globally. Now though, they say that people still have this money. Okay…but, in that case, where did the too many dollars come from if everyone’s still holding them? Also, you’re now saying the fed hiking rates haven’t even been able to drain $2000 from the bottom 50% of Americans “savings”. Make it make sense!!
He is completely out of touch with middle-class America. Insurance costs have risen, power bills have increased, and food prices have increased as well as transportation, childcare, rent, or mortgage payments. Wages have not increased enough to counter the prices surging.
This guy has had some very stupid takes for the past couple years. He's so out of touch. I honestly have no idea why people are still letting him give interviews.
Past couple years? This guy has been an asshole in my book since the Great Recession
I guess I'm getting old the past couple years definitely means long for me than it used to. 2009 feels like 3 years ago to me.
> He is completely out of touch with middle-class America. He's looking at hard data that his bank has on how much people are spending and saving. That is a lot more viable data than some cynical echo chamber on reddit.
Right? Reddit is out of touch with middle class america.
Cool, so he has data showing credit card and auto loan delinquencies surged 50% in 2023 and delinquencies are presently at worst level since 2012? Neat, I wonder how he came to such a positive outlook in lieu of that data.
>and delinquencies are presently at worst level since 2012? It's really hard to look at [this chart](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DRCCLACBS) of delinquencies and conclude that things are bad. They look pretty good to me. >Neat, I wonder how he came to such a positive outlook in lieu of that data. Maybe he actually looked at the data? Instead of cherry picking to make things look bad?
I think you underestimate the amount of information a large bank has. They know more than anyone else in terms of consumer patterns. They don’t just look at one pattern they look at them all. They can see how much you’re spending on vacations vs necessary items like groceries. Everyone talks about technology companies data but banks know every financial decision you make.
Wages are increasing more than costs https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q
Your graph shows an almost flatline the last few years while just about everyone I know is complaining how costs have risen in the same time period. We’re not talking about 10-15 years here but the last 3-4 years.
ITS REAL INCOME. IT IS ALREADY ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION.
Made just enough to not need a $2000 check. Have student loans but didn’t fit that bucket either. Never got PPP loans. Aka was middle class. Living pay check to pay check now. I can’t win with democratic OR republican fiscal breaks.
I’m okay with not winning them, as long as they aren’t going to fucking Jamie Dimon. What kind of horse shit is that, richest people in the world getting handouts was unbelievable. And we’re on track to vote for it again.
Jamie Dimon hasn’t pumped his own gas since he was in his 20’s. Giving out advice and status updates on average Americans. This man shits gold.
Same
Same. My wife and I are nurses. Made just enough not to even get a stimmy check. Worked my ass off during COVID. Watched my mother and father in law who are multi millionaires get checks because they are wealthy on paper but have “Lower income”. But that pales in comparison to PPP loan fraud.
He’s talking about the people who hoarded all the loan-free money. Yes they still have it. They invested it with JP Morgan and are living off the interest.
He's not. Read the article. >[Jamie Dimon: Yeah. You have to look a little bit in context. The consumer's in pretty good shape right now. Unemployment's under 4%, it's been there for two years. They still have excess money from COVID. If you go back to looking at the amount of money that was spent during COVID, it was $6 trillion. Through various means and various programs, they're still spending it down. Housing prices are up, stock prices are up, jobs are plentiful, wages are fine going up at the low end. The consumer's in pretty good shape.](https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/jp-morgan-ceo-jamie-dimon-on-what-next-for-the-economy/88c92388-fbb0-4194-bc05-13cceea3e64b)
Read an article? This is Reddit! I get outraged by a title and read the comments of other people who haven’t read the article!
He's not talking about the poor Americans.... The ones that got $1,500 or whatever... He's talking about the rich Americans that got thousands , or hundreds of thousands of dollars... Those are the ones driving the economy forward...
He's not. Read the article. >[Jamie Dimon: Yeah. You have to look a little bit in context. The consumer's in pretty good shape right now. Unemployment's under 4%, it's been there for two years. They still have excess money from COVID. If you go back to looking at the amount of money that was spent during COVID, it was $6 trillion. Through various means and various programs, they're still spending it down. Housing prices are up, stock prices are up, jobs are plentiful, wages are fine going up at the low end. The consumer's in pretty good shape.](https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/jp-morgan-ceo-jamie-dimon-on-what-next-for-the-economy/88c92388-fbb0-4194-bc05-13cceea3e64b)
This sub makes the same argument whenever the election comes up in conversation. Wild how it turns around here when a CEO says it.
It's actually ridiculous. I hope some people are able to see their own biases but on this reddit I doubt it. If they were arguing about Biden they would make the argument that the economy is strong and unemployment is low and the middle class is doing better. But like you said when a CEO says the same thing he's wrong.
He's talking about the middle class. If you don't agree the middle class is in good shape, you probably aren't in the middle class..
The middle class isn’t in good shape so I’m not middle class. The lower class isn’t in good shape…. so I’m not lower class. The upper class is in great shape…. wait why did no one tell me I’m upper class??
If you only got $1500 in stimulus, you are one of the rich americans. Typical families with kids got $12,000; if the kids were in school they may have received $20,000. Unemployment paid more than working for 75% of the unemployed. And student loans were paused for more than 3+ years.
Most stats indicate that the average family still has excess savings from Covid. It wasn’t just the stimulus coming in, but mostly a product of consumption plummeting.
Who exactly is he speaking about when he says Americans "still have money from COVID"? If it's those who took PPP loans and were forgiven then yeah sure but a majority of Americans even if they did receive Covid stimulus checks are not necessarily in good shape financially whatever that means.
During covid people saved more money due to expenditures being down. People were spending much less on things like going out for food, going to entertainment activities, vacation, etc. Also noteworthy that many people made substantially more money during the pandemic while not working. In my state if you made under ~70k at your job you would have had a higher income from unemployment until they dropped the additional stipend - and even then many people made more money from it. More income and lower expenses means more savings.
Most comments are about the rich. In shitcago they were claiming ppp loans with the help of the local govt con artists to create a business that didn’t exist so they could claim 10-20k. There was a lot of grifting - because the lawmakers are dumbasses. And grifters are gonna grift.
Yes inflation is high and many are feeling pinched but he's not wrong here. People are still buying cars, taking flights, buying discretionary non essential items/toys, still dining out and the vacation sector both within the USA and popular American travel destinations like the caribbean/cruises/Mexico/Europe is still very hot. This is a large reason that inflation has been so hard to combat. Are people still spending the $2K they got in 2021? Definitely not. However, many people did not spend money they normally would during covid on a vacation, car, event etc and are spending that cash now. Unemployment is still very low. There are big tech sector layoffs, but there aren't layoffs across-the-board. As of right now, the American economy is still going strong. When most people get to a point that they are in a bad financial situation and tight on cash, they stop spending money on discretionary goods and services. This causes the businesses that deal in that sector to cut costs, and reduce staff, etc. etc. and we start into a recession. At some point a recession will happen (it always does) but we aren't there yet.
I cringe everytime I hear an "expert" talk about how Americans are still spending their Covid stimulus money. Like dude, 80% of that cash went directly towards rent or paying off debt within the first 2 months it was handed out. Completely out of touch.
I'm pretty sure he is talking about how savings rates increased during the pandemic, not the stimulus checks alone.
If you have a couple of braincells to rub together, then yeah, I think it's pretty obvious he's not talking about stimulus checks.
this sub has really fallen extremely far. it's sad. it shouldn't even be called /r/economics anymore. it's a cynical echo chamber where people pretend the banks that are collecting all their financial data don't know their financial situation.
0% of the people in here are qualified to make an assumption on the financial stability of ‘most Americans’. The perspective of most people here is how they are doing individually and how the people in their small circle are doing, and therefore assume most Americans must live like them.
An article dedicating a third of its space to comments on social media when it could instead be providing information and context is just plain garbage journalism.
Does anyone think that a billionaire knows how the average American is doing? They only look at the data presented to them by their lackeys. I must disagree with him based on the people around me who are struggling to make ends meet. It’s great for the CC companies who are getting 22% on the trillion plus in debt people are racking up due to costs outpacing income.
“Regular people will continue to be priced out of the housing market through high interest rates as long as the majority of Americans have a positive balance in their bank accounts”
He's not wrong... "Good shape" means we all haven't died yet or lost our homes/jobs so there still is a few nickels in our pockets they can collectively take...
Most of these big bank guys don't know what is going on in the real public. Basing anything that these guys say as accurately depicting the present or future is financial suicide. What these guys are good at are finding arbitrage schemes. That's it. Paper, trading paper and making a few points on top. Not the real world of making stuff.
> Most of these big bank guys don't know what is going on in the real public. Actually they know it better than almost anyone else other than possibly the Fed, because they're the ones collecting (and monetizing) the data about the general public's spending and saving habits.
JP Morgan doubled my interest rates on my (and everyone else’s) credit cards the minute the fed raised rates in 2022 despite never having made a late payment. This guy is full of shit. So tired of the misdirection he constantly plants in the media to hide the fact that he is price gouging people.
When a Big Mac is not big and costs more than $10 for a meal, you really gotta wonder how far these CEO’s reach into their ass to pull out the dumbest shit you’ve ever read.
I just can't fathom the amount of evil and hate these people have for us. They really just look at us like little bugs that they allow to have things, but not even because I don't even hate bugs. Fuck them.