Their spirits would eventually return to the Erdtree to be reborn. There's no example for this happening so it must take a really long time. When you unleash the Rune of Death this process stops so they're dead for good. That's my interpretation anyway.
Also if they lost grace (which most, if not all have if I remember, except for godfrey) they no longer become immortal. It is directly stated that the tarnished ability to revive is because of their ability to see grace.
So even with the rune of death removed, they can still fall and "die". Although I'm not quite sure if they are still alive in spirit, as it is implied those without grace no longer return to the erdtree, see omens. So it is entirely possible that once stripped of grace, death is fair game as they no longer operate in the golden order (as far as the greater will sees it.)
Worthing noting, that those who've lost grace are no longer forever/eternal, as in they won't return after death but despite being able to be killed by regular means they still seem immune to death by aging. See nobles armor description (and just the faces of enemies)
Even if the souls are returned to the erdtree, they die all the same when we kill the tree with the fire/rune of death, and removing the golden order which it's whole purpose was unending life under marika the eternal in the form of returning to the erdtree to be reborn
It is heavily implied in multiple stages of the lore, but for concrete evidence:
Miyazaki said in an interview, along the lines
"The tarnished ability to revive is a blessing from grace, from the greater will" something like that. It is 99% safe to assume, therefore without grace one cannot revive, and is no longer accepted by the golden orders order of rebirth and eternal life.
The intro shows dead tarnished being granted Grace and reviving. They all lose Grace and the ability to revive because they're not following it's guidance.
That could be a one time deal though. Tarnished NPCs stay dead when you kill them.
You could say it's because they can't see grace I guess. Are there any NPCs that for sure can?
Oh right, Godfrey.
So he can see grace, but he doesn't resurrect when you kill him. You could take that as an indication that grace != unlimited resurrections, and the player respawn is just a gameplay mechanic.
Godfrey definitely did get resurrected in the lore before the start of the game - he's lookin dead AF in the intro cinematic - but that still fits with Tarnished resurrection back in the Lands Between being a one time deal.
I personally theorize he willingly tossed his grace aside when he became Hoarah Loux, Warrior once again. This would mean killing him means permanent death
Yeah, but does that matter? The question is whether the PC respawning is a lore thing or a game mechanic, and the Rune of Death doesn't affect the PC's ability to respawn.
That could be, but then we'd be back to not having a single example of an NPC Tarnished dying with grace. We still wouldn't know if they could respawn or not.
Burden of proof isn't on me here, dude. I haven't actually taken a position. I don't know for a fact that a hypothetical NPC who died with grace \*wouldn't\* be able to respawn, but that doesn't mean shit.
We've never seen an NPC die with grace and respawn in the lore. We know they get the one resurrection back in the Lands Between, but unlimited respawn at sites of grace never actually happens for NPCs. It's not a thing that happens in the game, it's not referenced in dialogue, it's not referenced in item descriptions. If you think it does happen that's 100% headcanon.
They stay dead because they stopped seeing the Grace, as they're busy cooking crabs and joining blood cults instead of following the path Marika laid out for the tarnished.
the elden beast isn't revoking your free life pass when you fight him or if you go down the chaos route, so I'm thinking Marika might have some say in who gets what.
But it wouldn't make sense for Marika to want the chaos or dungeater ending and she continues giving you grace as your going through with them? You could argue she is not aware of you doing these things but as we've seen with NPC's it seems your choices affect whether you continue to have grace. So the grace giver seems to be aware of some things at least
The only thing we know for sure that Marika wants is for us to kill a god, that's probably the Elden Beast, but something I've been thinking lately is that maybe she wanted us to kill Radagon and as a result her as well, maybe Elden Beast fighting us was an attempt by the Greater Will to interfere with that plan somehow.
In either case maybe she considers the Frenzied Flame or Dung Eater endings to be worth the cost for reaching her goals?
Marika's motivations are one of the most vague part of the game so I don't think we can conclude with confidence what the conditions for the revocation of grace are.
I don’t know if we exactly know what Marika wanted out of smashing the Ring, other than it being a new Order. Some of her “spoken echo” lines make it seem like she was open to a free-for-all among her demigod children, and Melina makes it clear she has an agenda independent of her mom, so she may care a lot more about the Flame of Frenzy than Marika.
My guess is that she really didn’t care what came after, as long as it was different than the status quo under the Greater Will/Two Fingers. This would explain the “I don’t care what you do other than something” line to her demigod kids as well as the way she gives a bunch of competing Tarnished Grace.
There may be contradicting evidence that I missed of course.
People only think Marika gave the grace because of the dialogue at the Church of Pilgrimage that Melina repeats.
However, every other NPC (Volcano Manor, Varre, etc.) makes it clear that the GW, and resultingly, the Two Fingers are the ones who extend the Grace to the Tarnished.
Rogier explicitly states he has lost the ability to see grace and Corhyn says we are “rare” in our ability. Not all tarnished see grace anymore. It’s implied they lost the ability by not following its guidance.
Destined death is part of an order in the world, the runes individually represent core ideas or foundations to existence (Also, runes can be created, it is said that individual runes are life force, as when the ring was shattered the souls in the erdtree split into the runes we use to level up.)
Together in certain combinations they create different orders, we create these new orders in the 4 alternate endings, dung eater, gold mask, fracture, and fia. For example the order we create with fia is by adding the mending rune of death into the existing golden order, this creating a new order.
In other words, the ring is an instrument to construct order across all living beings in the lands between (and potentially the known surrounding areas like land of reeds, badlands, etc.) So the rune of death can't exactly make individual exceptions as it's the literal embodiment of death.
Goldwyn, died as a result of destined death. So did the other unnamed demigods wandering in the mausoleums, pure death kills both the soul and body, this exact reason is one of the driving factors that lead marika to question the great will, and specifically the golden order and as such the beginning of her path to undermine the order.
Hope that clears it up
I don't particularly like your last paragraph for a few reasons.
>Goldwyn, died as a result of destined death. So did the other unnamed demigods wandering in the mausoleums, pure death kills both the soul and body,
1) I think you're just a tad off here. Godwyn's death is an issue because he did not die in both soul and body. Godwyn's soul is dead. His body still lives. Godwyn's circumstances are due to him and Ranni being killed at the exact same time with the same exact method. Ranni died in body, Godwyn died in spirit. More specifically the Cursemark of Death was split in two because of this. I think the specifics are important in this instance. Godwyn's death is one of a kind.
2) The unnamed demigods are some of Marika's other children killed on the Night of Black Knives. All of their heads have been removed, I assume as an additional measure to ensure their death, or inability to be revived.
>this exact reason is one of the driving factors that lead marika to question the great will, and specifically the golden order and as such the beginning of her path to undermine the order.
I don't think Marika has an issue with death being removed, she did it herself after all. I think she hates that it was used against her, or that it CAN be used against her. Combine this with her grief and you can see why she would spiral. Marika always kept Destined Death in her reach. Fia mentions that Godwyn's death and display is essentially the ultimate embarrassment/shame. Goldmask mentions that essentially even gods have their own selfish motivations and that it was an inherent flaw of the Golden Order.
Putting all of that together, and it paints a picture that Marika is a power hungry narcissist. She got her lip busted by Ranni and the Black Knives and crashed out with grief and anger, breaking the Elden Ring.
The one black hole I have in this equation, or something I'm not 100% convinced of. Is Marika really trying to subvert the Greater Will? On one hand I can see where this theory is coming from. On the other hand, it's never explicitly stated or implied. The only real things that we know is that Godwyn's death hit her really hard. She is still the vessel for the ring when we find her.
Ah I should have been clear in the comparison between the unnamed demigods vs godwyn, I meant to say it in a comparative contrast.
For the head cutting off thing, it definitely has something to do with deathbird rituals, all the ghostly knights used an ancient death rite to behead themselves so that they may live in a ghostly form, to forever guard the demigods they are loyal too. Perhaps, by beheading the demigods themselves they also wished to revive them in ghostly form, but but their soul and body had been completely killed at that point. They are likely walking in the mausoleums in fear that deathroot may sprout from the unnamed demigods bodies, as did godwyns because they didn't know godwyn was an exception.
Interesting point on Marika annoyed that death was used against her, she was likely pissed off already when the gloam eyed queen did it so I can definitely imagine that.
Something to note, ranni's and gold mask whole thing is that they believe the fall of the order was due to the gods themselves, fickle beings full of pride and ego, this is pretty easy to see. In ranni's ending, she creates a new order of the moon, and detaches herself from the earthly plains, so that order can be a force of nature, rather than governed by individual beings.
For her to come to this conclusion, it is very possible she held Marika in high discontent, indicating she was likely prideful and egotistical.
Nothing in the game is ever like "Marika felt this" "Marika did this because of that" etc but we get a timeline of her actions and some dialogue and from the little we get there is a lot to infer. By no means is this the only option, many things could have happened (sure the dlc will prove at least half of my knowledge wrong) And I'm not claiming to know everything either, but this is the story that makes the most sense for me.
I think cutting off heads prevents revival because the head contains the eyes.
There’s a lot of reason to believe that eyes betray your allegiances in this game. It’s also where runes reside.
Also, seeing grace seems to be what allows you to revive. Perhaps it’s how the soul re-enters the body?
What reason makes her question the order? She sealed death so surely she knew it was possible to unseal it. I figured she questioned the order because immortality wasn't all it was made out to be lol
Two main reasons. The biggest is that obviously she saw the flaw in the golden order, and likely wanted a new order. However, radagon was obsessed with the golden order, made the whole fundamentalist school of incantations to commemorate it, obsessed with convergence and causation, the returning of life to erdtree and birth, something out possible by the golden order.
Sharing the same body, marika likely detested radagon, at least in the end, melina tells marika dialogue in her bedchamber where she calls radagon a dog to the golden order. So she couldn't usher in a new order politically, because radagon would object. She tries to end the golden order by force, and radagon seals the erdtree with her and the ring inside so the golden order stays, despite being completely broken at this time.
There's a whole thing about who radagon is but I believe he manifested during marikas ascension to godhood, aka when she inherited the elden ring as it's host. Making radagon a hound of the order and to the greater will.
The second reason is that marika wanted an eternal order, where life and rebirth were unending. Even before the flaws in this order occured there is a theory that she felt expendable by the greater will. The greater will isn't loyal to the golden order, but to any order. See how it appoints empyreans to potential godhood to replace marika and announce a new age, what happens to marika then? Thrown to the side? What of her merging with the elden ring? With she die if removed? She even had killed the gloam eyed queen killed, and it was said she was an empyrean so it's very likely that was the main reason for her death, it was only after that she started the golden order by sealing the rune of death, to prevent any chance of a god skin order.
Only for her very own children to be deemed worthy to replace her. It is a very likely explanation for her actions. Additionally when faith within the golden order begins to diminish, when the denizens of the lands between realize how hellish immortality really is she vows to search the very depths of the golden order, and the greater will. Now we can never be too sure what exactly she found but in her bedchamber there seems to be endless tablets, full of writing. Perhaps her own research, suggesting she never found an answer, a reason for the greater will in the first place. Towers of tablets laying about trying to understand the greater will, but whatever conclusion she comes too, she obviously didn't like it.
Obviously this is piecing together a string of events that marika may or may not have had certain motives for doing, but it is the theory that both I personally believe is the most likely, as well as a ton of lore theory crafters too.
Additionally marika also tasked hewg to make a god slayer armament to kill her, hence also killing the elden beast, the vassal of the greater will, and ending the golden order, she likely did this just before shattering the ring, further showing her resentment for the order.
But what is the flaw? The flaw is of her own doing. I've always been confused by that. I guess she just realized immortality is flawed? Maybe I'm a smooth brain but I just don't get how things didn't work out as she planned. After all she more or less did create a world of constant rebirth and immortality. Unless it has to do with the fact that whether you are boiled, mashed, or put into a stew, you are still sorta alive...which I guess was a less obvious flaw lok
The flaw is that immortality is flawed yes, most people seen in the lands between look to have lived hundreds of years, color drained from their skin. From the golden order the live eternally, and as such the shattering war has been in a constant stalemate.
The flowchart probably went something like this
-Marika is deemed an empyrean, at the same time as gloam eyed queen
- Markia, likely leader of the numen sought this position as god with her eternal lineage, and killed gloam eyed queen, sealed death to both remove geq's power and begin her eternal reign, to host prosperous lives
- ends all enemies of the golden order with Godfrey and his crucible knights
- the world is prosperous, but only for fleeting years, as the erdtrees natural life force drains as it fully matures from the crucible
- Having no reason to live, Godfrey and his warriors lose grace and are banished
- multiple children have been born, of which 3 are empyrean
-Likely during this time marika realises that eternal life with eventually strip oneself of meaning, leading to the loss of grace, she likely failed to comprehend this due to her numen heritage where they live extraordinarily long, as such she lacked the foresight to understand the true consequences of this order for regular races
-At the same time, ranni despised the greater wills influence and wishes to usher in a new age, free of greater will influence
-This converges into ranni executing the night of black knives, finally bringing death back into the world. But to rid herself of greater will influence, she desecrates godwyns corpse creating deathroot and those who live in death
-Marika, already doubting her decision or the path the golden order is taking now has to deal with rannis bullshit (note that marika may have had a hand in the night of the black knives, but I believe ranni alone was responsible for deathroot as per her ritual to rid herself of flesh, something Marika wouldn't have anticipated either way)
-Pressured by both radagon and the consequences of the night of the black knives (which was also a direct consequence of the golden order) she has no choice but to forcibly destroy the golden order, it is not how she envisioned it and in its current state is pitiful, people losing their wills and graceless undead roaming about, along with the death of at least 8 demigods
-In present time, the tarnished is tasked by the greater will to go become a lord to Markia once more, to bestow order upon the world again as the golden order is in a complete standstill, and the erdtree damaged.
Yes, the flaw was inherently marikas fault. But the fault all revolves around the greater will, its course to bestowing order and the way it chooses gods and new ages, as well as Marika failing to find a proper reason the greater will needs order in the first place. She sought to seek the depths of the greater will, to reaffirm people's faiths to keep the order going, but alas found nothing.
There is obvious part of the story we aren't meant to understand, whole cosmic horror thing
Enia just says, "The Rune of Death is unbound." Maybe, since it's burning the Erdtree, that effectively destroys the reincarnation cycle. Destined Death is not part of the Elden Ring, but we've kind of ruined the whole "souls go to the Erdtree to be reborn" thing for good this time.
It's not like the undead who were kept alive by the removal of Destined Death crumble to dust as soon as the Erdtree burns; they just look a bit confused. So, we just ended what the Golden Order Fundamentalists call "a true death."
Godrick - torso still alive maybe? Rennala - depressed AF but alive. Rykard - suhpent never dies buhuhuhuhuh. Radhan - Got me on this one, he's dead afaik. Malenia - became pretty flower. Ranni - simp. Miquella - alive before dlc. Mohg - probably some weird blood shit. Morgott - only dies just before Godfrey fight.
I think the item tooltip for gold tinged excrement sort of implies that the removal of the rune of death keeps you alive even if you are horribly mutilated. You can be ripped apart by a runebear, eaten, and shat out and still the elden ring will preserve you. So radahn may still be "alive", he's just been reduced to a pile of bloody chunks, many of which are now stewing inside of a certain pot man.
I think the argument for Radahn is that as the fight goes on his control over the stars fades. Even while a mindless beast wandering and eaten away by rot that magic stayed going. As he gets weak from battle it fades, and when he dies his hold on the stars is also gone.
Ranni even needed him dead for her plans (to the point she sends Blaidd, and potentially you) to ensure it.
Godrick is maybe alive but it seems definitive. Rennala is obviously alive, Malenia seems to be dead having been consumed by rot in the battle, Morgott is dead since his magic faded.
Mogh and Rykard are more ambiguous, though Tanith seems to think Rykard can be reborn (or that she can take his power). I suspect Mogh is alive as he's not too dissimilar from Ranni in goals (just part of a different faction basically)
Best I can say about Radhan is his essence is somehow around inside of Alexander and even has a substantial impact on Alexander’s personality. But that still feels dead to me, idk lol.
It means that he got severly bashed to the point of losing their standing or respect. They were "toppled" and are not the baddest in that area anymore.
My interpretation is that the only person who is fully immortal while the Rune of Death is sealed is Marika/Radagon. Everyone else, demigods and normal people included, are just functionally immortal and cannot die of natural causes (no one is destined to die anymore since ‘Destined Death’ is sealed). So when we kill things, we slay their bodies and their souls just wander the lands, hoping to find Erdtree roots so that they may return to the tree.
"Immortal" does not necessarily mean unkillable, it can also just mean living forever without dying of natural causes or being resurrected after death.
I was under the impression that the whole immortal thing ended when Godwyn died, and the only truly immortal gods are the outer gods such as the formless mother, rot god, ghost flame god, frenzied flame, greater will(not elden beast), or the fell god
All of which seem to be truly powerful entities unlike “gods” such as marika who borrow power from the elden beast a vessel of the greater will
My take is that they were immortal due to the blessing of the Erdtree (made possible by the sealing of Destined Death), but now they no longer have that blessing and are currently mortal.
It has to be this. The GW literally abandoned the demigods (intro dialogue) which is why the Two Fingers commands us to kill them. They aren't immortal anymore since the release of the Destined Death which is what prevented their "fated deaths" (assuming this is a fancy phrase for death that comes as a part of living and a part of fate). The Tarnisheds's immortality stems from the guidance of Grace, which, in Miyazaki's words, "refuses to let them go" and which only a few tarnished can still see.
The removal of the Rune of Death only means the demigods can't die of natural death, grow old or meet their "fated" death. If you hit them hard enough they'll die anyway however.
I don’t think this is the case tbh. They warred with each other and weren’t able to kill one another. I think during this war they probably died but revived until they were forsaken by the greater will and grace. This is probably what also caused their stalemate as they realized they would die and not revive.
I think they lost the sigh of grace which prevents them from reviving. The greater will states it has forsaken the demigods. You, however, still see grace and still revive. A “rare thing” in the lands between.
Destined death is also called “death indiscriminate”. I think its removal from the elden ring caused death to discriminate between those with grace and those without it.
If they were really immortal, why fight at all? It would have been obviously a waste of time and they wouldn't have bothered at all.
Besides, resurrecting after death is something only the Tarnished returned by Marika's Grace can do, not anyone else. Only the Tarnished are confirmed to have been able to return from the dead out of the entire cast of characters in the game. Grace comes from Marika, not the Greater Will. You realize this by Melina's dialogue that quotes Marika, when she tells the Tarnished themselves that she is going to remove Grace from them and exile them, but she also tells them that one day they would return to the Lands Between to brandish the Elden Ring. This is to say that when Marika removed Grace from the Tarnished she was already planning their return down the line.
Also, Grace guides us toward our next destinations, frequently pointing toward places that the Fingers and the Greater Will would never approve of, like the Forge of the Giants for the purpose of burning the Erdtree. Indeed, the Greater Will's presence is nowhere to be seen by the game's modern times, the Erdtree with Radagon and the Elden Beast is sealed from the inside the doesn't want anyone to enter, the Fingers are totally confused and don't understand why the Erdtree is closed, and the reason is that they haven't been able to contact the Greater Will at all for a very long time. The demigods were never endowed with that kind of Grace.
I mean I might be wrong about the demigods but I think they were warring for the shattered runes not to kill each other. We don’t know how many times those runes exchanged hands before settling into the status quo as we find it. Again I might be wrong on this front but I do think grace once favored the demigods but does no longer.
What I do feel confident about is that grace determines who can resurrect and who remains dead. It’s “death descriminate”.
I see Grace as divine purpose. It guides us, literally, and it gives us life, literally. Those who abandon their divine purpose (like Rogier) lose their ability to live forever.
That dialogue alludes to a plan by Marika but that does not mean she is the one giving us Grace now. It's pretty clear that it is the Two Fingers and the GW as numerous dialogues confirm, from the Two Fingers themselves to Varre talking about how they called us back to help the GW. The only evidence people have to say it is Marika is that dialogue from Melina, which is confusing and could imply many things.
Additionally, not saying you are lying but where was it confirmed we are coming back through the Grace and that we are the only ones? I read somewhere that someone said this in an interview (Miyazaki) but I can't find it and I can't find any lore that states it. But I could be missing something.
But the Fingers are powerless and rambling in the modern day. Their original purpose was lost long ago, they are left utterly confused by the Erdtree being shut down, and the Greater Will is nowhere to be seen. The Fingers appear to powerless that even Enia is willing to basically ignore them entirely after reaching the Erdtree, and Gideon too gives them no concern.
The Greater Will appears completely cut off from the world, and the Fingers definitely aren't extending Grace because Grace points us toward burning the Erdtree.
> Additionally, not saying you are lying but where was it confirmed we are coming back through the Grace and that we are the only ones? I read somewhere that someone said this in an interview (Miyazaki) but I can't find it and I can't find any lore that states it. But I could be missing something.
I think it was explicitly stated in Overture of Elden Ring, but I would argue that the notion of Grace bringing the dead to life and this not happening to anyone else is possible to figure out by remembering how the major Tarnished of the intro are all depicted as having died and been brought back to the Lands Between by the manifestation of Grace, while this never happens to the regular people of the Lands Between.
The Two Fingers aren’t powerless. That’s a huge generalization that has bo basis in the reality. They are very much not what they once were given the time it’s taken for them to find a lord, but no one is ignoring them lol.
Burning the Erdtree is considered heresy but the Two Fingers aren’t saying anything against it because at that point they stop communicating with us. Enia states that neither they nor the GW would permit it but she is clearly at a loss and emphasizes that maybe it isn’t a sin any longer. No one saw it coming that Radagon would prevent a new lord, given how loyal he is to the GW…but it turns out he loves the Golden Order more.
When you enter the Erdtree, Marika is clearly no longer really existing and Radagon, whose seal is actively keeping you out, is all that is left of her. So it wouldn’t make sense for Marika to be guiding you. Tanith says the Erdtree blessed the tarnished with Grace but most other dialogue says it was the Two Fingers and sometimes this is stated as if the sources are interchangeable.
The Greater Will is not cut off. That would defeat the entire purpose of being Elden Lord. I’m guessing you are saying this because of the intro dialogue? That’s specifically talking about the GW abandoning the Demigods…as the Two Fingers themselves confirm. That’s a character in the fame being backed up by objective narration. People have this hang up where they think Enia and the Two Fingers are lying about something but they aren’t. There is no basis for this.
The word "immortal" has many meanings.
And we don't know if they are presently immortal. Their immortality comes as a result of Destined Death being removed from Elden Ring. The Elden Ring is no more.
\[Not really an answer, more of a misplaced musing as to why our gaming group accepts it as normal.\]
So, I have a head canon that is completely unrelated to FS's provided information about this, but it helps me bridge the gap in a larger gaming universe that makes some cognitive dissonance less.
The Lands Between are surrounded by mist (stated, we come from the lands beyond the fog/mist). There is a really great planar representation that fits the cosmogony required for 1.) Once you're in, you can't get out, 2.) Everything is in a cycle, repeats, and is trapped forever, 3.) The plane just "rebuilds" dead things when you aren't looking (grace reset).
The Plane of Shadow, and specifically: **The Domains of Dread.**
In our roleplay circle, Elden Ring takes place in the 18th Domain of Dread, part of the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow, and the purpose of those planes is to act as a prison. Now, the DLC kinda muddies this head canon up a bit, because they have an actual shadow plane thing going on there... but...
It otherwise fits for why everything happens again, your journey can be started over, and why the plane restructures things around it. (Nifty little D&D crossover for our gameplay that we enjoy.) It also makes a compelling stance for why none of the Gods and Demigods can escape (Though Ranni claims to leave and start the age of stars... we never see it completely happen--if you keep playing after that, nothing changes.) We can even imagine that "sites of grace" are slivers of the positive energy plane seeping through (or perhaps they are manufactured points of light to help us feel hope, only to dash it away at the next turn.)
Either way, the demigods et al are trapped in this prison plane just as much as we are, so them "dying" isn't so useful to their ability to escape the prison.
Of course, we like to make logic where gameplay doesn't meet lore/story in the games we play, because having mechanics that do not fit your narrative design is just... exhausting for immersion. We had a similar experience with resurrection in world of warcraft---magically players can be rezzed but not npcs? Except Crusader Bridenbrad in WotLK, but that's another story altogether).
They're the same as everything else in the lands between. They can die but they are resurrected in the mausoleums. All the other living things die and get buried so they can respawn through the roots of the erdtree. Godwyn was wrongly buried at the roots and he ended up clogging it up.
Immortal means to live forever they won't die from old age but they can still be killed, where as invincible means they can't be killed. Similar but 2 very different things from each other hope this helps.
The title of “Demigod” doesn’t seem to have the same meaning in ER as it does in Greek Myth or something similar.
The title of Demigod just seems to be a sort of nobility term one gets after entering Marika’s royal family, since Rykard, Ranni and Radahn (whom have no relation to Marika and are essentially just very powerful descendants of Caria) all receive the title just by being Marika’s stepchildren.
This depends on how far you take the Radagon = Marika statement (which I'm sure will be elaborated on in 2 weeks), because if you take it at face value they have an extreme relation to her. Obviously she "raised them" to that status when Rad came back, but this is also assuming they were separate entities initially.
Also they aren’t necessarily “immortal” as you would think, essentially the lack of a rune of death in the Elden Ring causes things in the world to just go on indefinitely, but things can still he slain and decline in physical health (the wandering nobles look like that because they’re starved for runes), so the Demigods which have access to readily available runes are still fresh even after the Shattering.
Basically things can still be killed but are buried with the Erdtree’s roots in Catacombs so they can have their runes harvested and be reborn.
Don't believe what you're told. The words God, demigod, empyrean... these are just titles. Each character is different in their own way, and we do different things to them.
So the in-world belief, as golden order theology/philosophy tells it, they aren't dead. Their spirits are making their way to the Erdtree's roots so they can be absorbed and hopefully one day "reborn".
We don't really have evidence (as far as I'm aware) of beings actually being reborn from the Erdtree. I don't doubt that these spirits, and corpses, are being absorbed into the Erdtree, but I do doubt that rebirth is even a thing in the Marika's order. I think she has engineered Death in such a way that everything that dies, rather than "moving on" and effectively ceasing to exist, they are absorbed and fed on by the Erdtree, providing her and the Greater Will power. They are used as fuel much like Humanity was in DS1, feeding the Age of Fire.
My personal theory going into the DLC is that the Erdtree was built from a mass sacrifice of people and it has to keep being fed in order to continue existing. It could be that that's the real offense of the Omens and Those Who Live In Death. They don't "feed the fire" when they die and therefore are a threat to the GO's supremacy.
My understanding is that “removing destined death” made death “discriminate”. Those who see grace get revived while those who have lost the sight of it remain dead.
Most folks in the lands between have lost the sight of grace and talk about that fact often.
Yeah I wonder about that too lol
but I see grace as “divine purpose” and those who stray from their divine purpose lose grace (e.g. Rogier) and what is a foot soldier if not someone who follows a pre-ordained path set out for them by someone up the foodchain?
They arent immortal anymore, nothing is fully immortal since The Night of Black Knives broke the original Rune of Death.
Death is no longer fully sealed by Malikeths blade, there are pieces scattered as Deathroot and even when all deathroot is collected, theres still some missing as Gurranq states. Likely the red/black shard in Marika if i had to guess.
It seems natural death, like that from aging and disease, seems to still be sealed or mostly sealed, as there are putrid corpses eaten to the bone by poison and rot, but they still cling to life same as the wandering nobles.
It does seem like things can be killed through wounds though, or through more violent means.
When we collect runes from killing something, its because they DID die. We get some runes while The Erdtree sucks up some too to stay alive, thats the entire point of Remembrances.
A remembrance is an echo of what runes The Erdtree did claim, and you can use it to partially recreate the power wielded by that foe.
I think the thing missing here is Grace. Many NPCs remark on the fact that it is surprising and rare that the player is blessed with grace. In the opening cutscene we are shown to be revived when “grace is once again bestowed” on us.
Grace allows revivification. It’s how death “discriminates” in the Lands Between. It also seems to be a way the Greater Will favors people. The GW had “forsaken the demigods”. I think they’ve stopped resurrecting because they’ve lost grace/ the favor of the GW. This is also likely why they stopped fighting each other. Before, they could count on reviving after dying but now they can’t and they don’t want to play chicken because for the first time they have real mortality. This makes Radahn really interesting too. He doesn’t see grace, is holding back the sky for important reasons, but is willing to risk death anyway for the glory of another fight. Why?
Grace also seems to be a metaphor for divine purpose. This purpose keeps people immortal but a lack of it causes death. When people abandon their purpose or show fickleness it also causes the GW to abandon them in kind.
Nah, you're wrong. A fragment of the run of death was stolen and inscribed upon the black knives used to kill godwyn and ranni. Demigods were never immortal in the sense that they can't be killed. They are like Tolkiens elves. Can live forever but can still be slain in battle. I'm sure they can also be revived or rebornnvia grace or the erdtree respectively.
Nope; you are wrong. Since Marika become God and the age of the erdtree began - everyone was immortal since death was sealed away; this is when people are reborn through the Erdtree. After the night of black lives this is no longer the case- hence why the demigods can be killed aswell as other tarnished.
So then tell me buddy, why do we have to unseal the death rune if it's already unsealed? They stole a "fragment" of the rune. They did not unseal the whole rune. Otherwise we wouldn't see nobles cursed with eternal life wandering. Furthermore if everyone was always immortal even to death blows from weaponry erdtree burials wouldn't be a thing.
We unseal the rest of the rune of death in order to burn the erdtree - people still die before that happens hence why we kill most of the demigods before that point bro. Hence why we can kill other tarnished in that time aswell - the exception is us respawning but that is just a gameplay mechanic that doesn’t actually need a lore explanation - hence why we aren’t playing a roguelike game.
Everything I’m saying has been said explicitly in the story trailer for Elden ring (I think but don’t quote as not 100% sure - been a while since I watched that) and also during the game itself.
The fragment of destined death was stolen by Ranni which allowed Goldwyn to die aswell as herself. She died in flesh and he died spirit. That’s why Marika went menopause, and that’s why we can now kill demigods. That’s literally the entire plot point of the game and shame on you for not realising it but hey; half the fun of fromsoftware games is people filling in the gaps with their own head canons and fake lore so you do you brother; I couldn’t care less whether you think I am wrong or not lmao - I already know 👊
Also to hit your point on erdtree burials - they were a thing due to the immortality; you became reborn through the erdtree since destined death was sealed. This happened PRIOR to our playthroughs and Elden ring beginning as a game and the burials we see are from BEFORE the night of black knives. Which is why we don’t see any new burials by erdtree after we start playing the game.
One final point - the fact that only a fragment of the rune of death was stolen as opposed to the entire rune of death, is the in lore reason for why undead appear - skeletons for E.g; “those that live in death” (see D’s entire questline”
You're right bro. It's not like I literally just said a fragment of the rune of death was stolen and etched upon the black knives. I'm well aware of the conspiracy involving a "fragment" of the rune of death. However I simply disagree that that's why the demigods can be killed. I think they've always been killable. Hence why you only need the ancient dragon smiting stone to kill a God, not a demigod. But keep living in la-la land assuming your interpretation is gospel lol
You get the ancient dragon smithing stone before you burn the erdtree bro - so that’s not what allows us to kill a god; and also - you can kill Marika on SL 1 without a +10/25 weapon so it’s not the ancient dragon smithing stone that allows us to kill Marika. We needed to burn the erdtree to get the chance is all- but after the night of black knives everyone can die gods included. We can agree to disagree, I’m not trying to persuade you otherwise or change your head canon - but I am right 😂
As an addendum, the rune of death was intended to give godwyn a "true" death. One in which his spirit and body was slain. This would prevent him from being reborn via the erdtree. All this being said its all up for debate. Maybe get off your high fucking horse buddy
Their spirits would eventually return to the Erdtree to be reborn. There's no example for this happening so it must take a really long time. When you unleash the Rune of Death this process stops so they're dead for good. That's my interpretation anyway.
Also if they lost grace (which most, if not all have if I remember, except for godfrey) they no longer become immortal. It is directly stated that the tarnished ability to revive is because of their ability to see grace. So even with the rune of death removed, they can still fall and "die". Although I'm not quite sure if they are still alive in spirit, as it is implied those without grace no longer return to the erdtree, see omens. So it is entirely possible that once stripped of grace, death is fair game as they no longer operate in the golden order (as far as the greater will sees it.) Worthing noting, that those who've lost grace are no longer forever/eternal, as in they won't return after death but despite being able to be killed by regular means they still seem immune to death by aging. See nobles armor description (and just the faces of enemies) Even if the souls are returned to the erdtree, they die all the same when we kill the tree with the fire/rune of death, and removing the golden order which it's whole purpose was unending life under marika the eternal in the form of returning to the erdtree to be reborn
Where is the ability to be revived said to be because of the ability to see grace?
It is heavily implied in multiple stages of the lore, but for concrete evidence: Miyazaki said in an interview, along the lines "The tarnished ability to revive is a blessing from grace, from the greater will" something like that. It is 99% safe to assume, therefore without grace one cannot revive, and is no longer accepted by the golden orders order of rebirth and eternal life.
The intro shows dead tarnished being granted Grace and reviving. They all lose Grace and the ability to revive because they're not following it's guidance.
That could be a one time deal though. Tarnished NPCs stay dead when you kill them. You could say it's because they can't see grace I guess. Are there any NPCs that for sure can?
Godfrey is the only one who is confirmed to see grace. However it's been confirmed that several npc's have lost the ability to see it.
Oh right, Godfrey. So he can see grace, but he doesn't resurrect when you kill him. You could take that as an indication that grace != unlimited resurrections, and the player respawn is just a gameplay mechanic. Godfrey definitely did get resurrected in the lore before the start of the game - he's lookin dead AF in the intro cinematic - but that still fits with Tarnished resurrection back in the Lands Between being a one time deal.
I personally theorize he willingly tossed his grace aside when he became Hoarah Loux, Warrior once again. This would mean killing him means permanent death
Also you fight him after you gain the rune of death, so there's that.
Yeah, but does that matter? The question is whether the PC respawning is a lore thing or a game mechanic, and the Rune of Death doesn't affect the PC's ability to respawn.
That could be, but then we'd be back to not having a single example of an NPC Tarnished dying with grace. We still wouldn't know if they could respawn or not.
In the cutscene right before his fight, doesn't it show his grace pointing towards us?
Yep.
Well the Grace is given so it stands to reason if you lose, whatever force, likely the GW, can take it away. It wants a single Lord after all.
How do you know he doesn't resurrect? Do you know how long it takes to resurrect after dying in Elden Ring?
Burden of proof isn't on me here, dude. I haven't actually taken a position. I don't know for a fact that a hypothetical NPC who died with grace \*wouldn't\* be able to respawn, but that doesn't mean shit. We've never seen an NPC die with grace and respawn in the lore. We know they get the one resurrection back in the Lands Between, but unlimited respawn at sites of grace never actually happens for NPCs. It's not a thing that happens in the game, it's not referenced in dialogue, it's not referenced in item descriptions. If you think it does happen that's 100% headcanon.
"I haven't actually taken a position." Okay so you're just full of shit. Thanks for letting me know up front.
They stay dead because they stopped seeing the Grace, as they're busy cooking crabs and joining blood cults instead of following the path Marika laid out for the tarnished.
Is it Marika leading the path? She is the one who gives and takes grace? I thought it was the greater will?
the elden beast isn't revoking your free life pass when you fight him or if you go down the chaos route, so I'm thinking Marika might have some say in who gets what.
But it wouldn't make sense for Marika to want the chaos or dungeater ending and she continues giving you grace as your going through with them? You could argue she is not aware of you doing these things but as we've seen with NPC's it seems your choices affect whether you continue to have grace. So the grace giver seems to be aware of some things at least
The only thing we know for sure that Marika wants is for us to kill a god, that's probably the Elden Beast, but something I've been thinking lately is that maybe she wanted us to kill Radagon and as a result her as well, maybe Elden Beast fighting us was an attempt by the Greater Will to interfere with that plan somehow. In either case maybe she considers the Frenzied Flame or Dung Eater endings to be worth the cost for reaching her goals? Marika's motivations are one of the most vague part of the game so I don't think we can conclude with confidence what the conditions for the revocation of grace are.
I don’t know if we exactly know what Marika wanted out of smashing the Ring, other than it being a new Order. Some of her “spoken echo” lines make it seem like she was open to a free-for-all among her demigod children, and Melina makes it clear she has an agenda independent of her mom, so she may care a lot more about the Flame of Frenzy than Marika. My guess is that she really didn’t care what came after, as long as it was different than the status quo under the Greater Will/Two Fingers. This would explain the “I don’t care what you do other than something” line to her demigod kids as well as the way she gives a bunch of competing Tarnished Grace. There may be contradicting evidence that I missed of course.
People only think Marika gave the grace because of the dialogue at the Church of Pilgrimage that Melina repeats. However, every other NPC (Volcano Manor, Varre, etc.) makes it clear that the GW, and resultingly, the Two Fingers are the ones who extend the Grace to the Tarnished.
Rogier explicitly states he has lost the ability to see grace and Corhyn says we are “rare” in our ability. Not all tarnished see grace anymore. It’s implied they lost the ability by not following its guidance.
This is the best explanation I've heard. Makes total sense. Explains all the corpses everywhere to.
This is the most lore accurate answer as far as I can tell.
I thought that the demigods would come back anyways since Marika removed their destined deaths in particular?
Destined death is part of an order in the world, the runes individually represent core ideas or foundations to existence (Also, runes can be created, it is said that individual runes are life force, as when the ring was shattered the souls in the erdtree split into the runes we use to level up.) Together in certain combinations they create different orders, we create these new orders in the 4 alternate endings, dung eater, gold mask, fracture, and fia. For example the order we create with fia is by adding the mending rune of death into the existing golden order, this creating a new order. In other words, the ring is an instrument to construct order across all living beings in the lands between (and potentially the known surrounding areas like land of reeds, badlands, etc.) So the rune of death can't exactly make individual exceptions as it's the literal embodiment of death. Goldwyn, died as a result of destined death. So did the other unnamed demigods wandering in the mausoleums, pure death kills both the soul and body, this exact reason is one of the driving factors that lead marika to question the great will, and specifically the golden order and as such the beginning of her path to undermine the order. Hope that clears it up
I don't particularly like your last paragraph for a few reasons. >Goldwyn, died as a result of destined death. So did the other unnamed demigods wandering in the mausoleums, pure death kills both the soul and body, 1) I think you're just a tad off here. Godwyn's death is an issue because he did not die in both soul and body. Godwyn's soul is dead. His body still lives. Godwyn's circumstances are due to him and Ranni being killed at the exact same time with the same exact method. Ranni died in body, Godwyn died in spirit. More specifically the Cursemark of Death was split in two because of this. I think the specifics are important in this instance. Godwyn's death is one of a kind. 2) The unnamed demigods are some of Marika's other children killed on the Night of Black Knives. All of their heads have been removed, I assume as an additional measure to ensure their death, or inability to be revived. >this exact reason is one of the driving factors that lead marika to question the great will, and specifically the golden order and as such the beginning of her path to undermine the order. I don't think Marika has an issue with death being removed, she did it herself after all. I think she hates that it was used against her, or that it CAN be used against her. Combine this with her grief and you can see why she would spiral. Marika always kept Destined Death in her reach. Fia mentions that Godwyn's death and display is essentially the ultimate embarrassment/shame. Goldmask mentions that essentially even gods have their own selfish motivations and that it was an inherent flaw of the Golden Order. Putting all of that together, and it paints a picture that Marika is a power hungry narcissist. She got her lip busted by Ranni and the Black Knives and crashed out with grief and anger, breaking the Elden Ring. The one black hole I have in this equation, or something I'm not 100% convinced of. Is Marika really trying to subvert the Greater Will? On one hand I can see where this theory is coming from. On the other hand, it's never explicitly stated or implied. The only real things that we know is that Godwyn's death hit her really hard. She is still the vessel for the ring when we find her.
Ah I should have been clear in the comparison between the unnamed demigods vs godwyn, I meant to say it in a comparative contrast. For the head cutting off thing, it definitely has something to do with deathbird rituals, all the ghostly knights used an ancient death rite to behead themselves so that they may live in a ghostly form, to forever guard the demigods they are loyal too. Perhaps, by beheading the demigods themselves they also wished to revive them in ghostly form, but but their soul and body had been completely killed at that point. They are likely walking in the mausoleums in fear that deathroot may sprout from the unnamed demigods bodies, as did godwyns because they didn't know godwyn was an exception. Interesting point on Marika annoyed that death was used against her, she was likely pissed off already when the gloam eyed queen did it so I can definitely imagine that. Something to note, ranni's and gold mask whole thing is that they believe the fall of the order was due to the gods themselves, fickle beings full of pride and ego, this is pretty easy to see. In ranni's ending, she creates a new order of the moon, and detaches herself from the earthly plains, so that order can be a force of nature, rather than governed by individual beings. For her to come to this conclusion, it is very possible she held Marika in high discontent, indicating she was likely prideful and egotistical. Nothing in the game is ever like "Marika felt this" "Marika did this because of that" etc but we get a timeline of her actions and some dialogue and from the little we get there is a lot to infer. By no means is this the only option, many things could have happened (sure the dlc will prove at least half of my knowledge wrong) And I'm not claiming to know everything either, but this is the story that makes the most sense for me.
I think cutting off heads prevents revival because the head contains the eyes. There’s a lot of reason to believe that eyes betray your allegiances in this game. It’s also where runes reside. Also, seeing grace seems to be what allows you to revive. Perhaps it’s how the soul re-enters the body?
What reason makes her question the order? She sealed death so surely she knew it was possible to unseal it. I figured she questioned the order because immortality wasn't all it was made out to be lol
Two main reasons. The biggest is that obviously she saw the flaw in the golden order, and likely wanted a new order. However, radagon was obsessed with the golden order, made the whole fundamentalist school of incantations to commemorate it, obsessed with convergence and causation, the returning of life to erdtree and birth, something out possible by the golden order. Sharing the same body, marika likely detested radagon, at least in the end, melina tells marika dialogue in her bedchamber where she calls radagon a dog to the golden order. So she couldn't usher in a new order politically, because radagon would object. She tries to end the golden order by force, and radagon seals the erdtree with her and the ring inside so the golden order stays, despite being completely broken at this time. There's a whole thing about who radagon is but I believe he manifested during marikas ascension to godhood, aka when she inherited the elden ring as it's host. Making radagon a hound of the order and to the greater will. The second reason is that marika wanted an eternal order, where life and rebirth were unending. Even before the flaws in this order occured there is a theory that she felt expendable by the greater will. The greater will isn't loyal to the golden order, but to any order. See how it appoints empyreans to potential godhood to replace marika and announce a new age, what happens to marika then? Thrown to the side? What of her merging with the elden ring? With she die if removed? She even had killed the gloam eyed queen killed, and it was said she was an empyrean so it's very likely that was the main reason for her death, it was only after that she started the golden order by sealing the rune of death, to prevent any chance of a god skin order. Only for her very own children to be deemed worthy to replace her. It is a very likely explanation for her actions. Additionally when faith within the golden order begins to diminish, when the denizens of the lands between realize how hellish immortality really is she vows to search the very depths of the golden order, and the greater will. Now we can never be too sure what exactly she found but in her bedchamber there seems to be endless tablets, full of writing. Perhaps her own research, suggesting she never found an answer, a reason for the greater will in the first place. Towers of tablets laying about trying to understand the greater will, but whatever conclusion she comes too, she obviously didn't like it. Obviously this is piecing together a string of events that marika may or may not have had certain motives for doing, but it is the theory that both I personally believe is the most likely, as well as a ton of lore theory crafters too. Additionally marika also tasked hewg to make a god slayer armament to kill her, hence also killing the elden beast, the vassal of the greater will, and ending the golden order, she likely did this just before shattering the ring, further showing her resentment for the order.
But what is the flaw? The flaw is of her own doing. I've always been confused by that. I guess she just realized immortality is flawed? Maybe I'm a smooth brain but I just don't get how things didn't work out as she planned. After all she more or less did create a world of constant rebirth and immortality. Unless it has to do with the fact that whether you are boiled, mashed, or put into a stew, you are still sorta alive...which I guess was a less obvious flaw lok
The flaw is that immortality is flawed yes, most people seen in the lands between look to have lived hundreds of years, color drained from their skin. From the golden order the live eternally, and as such the shattering war has been in a constant stalemate. The flowchart probably went something like this -Marika is deemed an empyrean, at the same time as gloam eyed queen - Markia, likely leader of the numen sought this position as god with her eternal lineage, and killed gloam eyed queen, sealed death to both remove geq's power and begin her eternal reign, to host prosperous lives - ends all enemies of the golden order with Godfrey and his crucible knights - the world is prosperous, but only for fleeting years, as the erdtrees natural life force drains as it fully matures from the crucible - Having no reason to live, Godfrey and his warriors lose grace and are banished - multiple children have been born, of which 3 are empyrean -Likely during this time marika realises that eternal life with eventually strip oneself of meaning, leading to the loss of grace, she likely failed to comprehend this due to her numen heritage where they live extraordinarily long, as such she lacked the foresight to understand the true consequences of this order for regular races -At the same time, ranni despised the greater wills influence and wishes to usher in a new age, free of greater will influence -This converges into ranni executing the night of black knives, finally bringing death back into the world. But to rid herself of greater will influence, she desecrates godwyns corpse creating deathroot and those who live in death -Marika, already doubting her decision or the path the golden order is taking now has to deal with rannis bullshit (note that marika may have had a hand in the night of the black knives, but I believe ranni alone was responsible for deathroot as per her ritual to rid herself of flesh, something Marika wouldn't have anticipated either way) -Pressured by both radagon and the consequences of the night of the black knives (which was also a direct consequence of the golden order) she has no choice but to forcibly destroy the golden order, it is not how she envisioned it and in its current state is pitiful, people losing their wills and graceless undead roaming about, along with the death of at least 8 demigods -In present time, the tarnished is tasked by the greater will to go become a lord to Markia once more, to bestow order upon the world again as the golden order is in a complete standstill, and the erdtree damaged. Yes, the flaw was inherently marikas fault. But the fault all revolves around the greater will, its course to bestowing order and the way it chooses gods and new ages, as well as Marika failing to find a proper reason the greater will needs order in the first place. She sought to seek the depths of the greater will, to reaffirm people's faiths to keep the order going, but alas found nothing. There is obvious part of the story we aren't meant to understand, whole cosmic horror thing
I’ve always been confused on the rune of death thing. Wouldn’t destined death only come to fruition once the rune was mended into the Elden Ring?
Enia just says, "The Rune of Death is unbound." Maybe, since it's burning the Erdtree, that effectively destroys the reincarnation cycle. Destined Death is not part of the Elden Ring, but we've kind of ruined the whole "souls go to the Erdtree to be reborn" thing for good this time. It's not like the undead who were kept alive by the removal of Destined Death crumble to dust as soon as the Erdtree burns; they just look a bit confused. So, we just ended what the Golden Order Fundamentalists call "a true death."
Theoretically, after DD is released, Maliketh's blade and incantation plus godskin incantations should kill people for good
Maliketh could do that before. Being the grim reaper was his whole purpose.
Sorry, i meant to say us using it
We don't slay them. We "Fell"("Demigot Felled" message) them. Or defeat them . Only creature we slay is the Elden Beast.
Godrick - torso still alive maybe? Rennala - depressed AF but alive. Rykard - suhpent never dies buhuhuhuhuh. Radhan - Got me on this one, he's dead afaik. Malenia - became pretty flower. Ranni - simp. Miquella - alive before dlc. Mohg - probably some weird blood shit. Morgott - only dies just before Godfrey fight.
I think the item tooltip for gold tinged excrement sort of implies that the removal of the rune of death keeps you alive even if you are horribly mutilated. You can be ripped apart by a runebear, eaten, and shat out and still the elden ring will preserve you. So radahn may still be "alive", he's just been reduced to a pile of bloody chunks, many of which are now stewing inside of a certain pot man.
I love how there's always a moment in FromSoft games where I'm like 'the tone was *dark*, but now it's fucking *pitch*'
And I love how in this game that moment is contained in the item description for a steaming pile of shit
Never a dull moment around here
I think the argument for Radahn is that as the fight goes on his control over the stars fades. Even while a mindless beast wandering and eaten away by rot that magic stayed going. As he gets weak from battle it fades, and when he dies his hold on the stars is also gone. Ranni even needed him dead for her plans (to the point she sends Blaidd, and potentially you) to ensure it. Godrick is maybe alive but it seems definitive. Rennala is obviously alive, Malenia seems to be dead having been consumed by rot in the battle, Morgott is dead since his magic faded. Mogh and Rykard are more ambiguous, though Tanith seems to think Rykard can be reborn (or that she can take his power). I suspect Mogh is alive as he's not too dissimilar from Ranni in goals (just part of a different faction basically)
Best I can say about Radhan is his essence is somehow around inside of Alexander and even has a substantial impact on Alexander’s personality. But that still feels dead to me, idk lol.
What does fell mean?
In this context it means to strike down or defeat, but not necessarily kill.
It means that he got severly bashed to the point of losing their standing or respect. They were "toppled" and are not the baddest in that area anymore.
Like felling a tree.
To strike down essentially, but the wording is to evoke "felling" a tree, for obvious reasons
I thought about this, and if you 'fell' a tree, and the stump is not removed, is there potential for eventual regrowth? Or... perhaps grafting?
I mean Morgott is dead af when we kill him. Godfrey picks up his dead body and it flickers away. He isn't "defeated".
Well at that point we have unleashed destined death.
Well that's true but isn't Radahn "looking for an honourable death" ?
What does that have to do with anything? They all die forever when you return Destined Death to to world.
When you finish his healthbar he is "felled" but not died. After you unleash the rune of death, he dies at hands of his father.
My interpretation is that the only person who is fully immortal while the Rune of Death is sealed is Marika/Radagon. Everyone else, demigods and normal people included, are just functionally immortal and cannot die of natural causes (no one is destined to die anymore since ‘Destined Death’ is sealed). So when we kill things, we slay their bodies and their souls just wander the lands, hoping to find Erdtree roots so that they may return to the tree.
We probably just kill their physical form while their spirit or erdtree form or whatever stays alive
"Immortal" does not necessarily mean unkillable, it can also just mean living forever without dying of natural causes or being resurrected after death.
I was under the impression that the whole immortal thing ended when Godwyn died, and the only truly immortal gods are the outer gods such as the formless mother, rot god, ghost flame god, frenzied flame, greater will(not elden beast), or the fell god All of which seem to be truly powerful entities unlike “gods” such as marika who borrow power from the elden beast a vessel of the greater will
My take is that they were immortal due to the blessing of the Erdtree (made possible by the sealing of Destined Death), but now they no longer have that blessing and are currently mortal.
It has to be this. The GW literally abandoned the demigods (intro dialogue) which is why the Two Fingers commands us to kill them. They aren't immortal anymore since the release of the Destined Death which is what prevented their "fated deaths" (assuming this is a fancy phrase for death that comes as a part of living and a part of fate). The Tarnisheds's immortality stems from the guidance of Grace, which, in Miyazaki's words, "refuses to let them go" and which only a few tarnished can still see.
The removal of the Rune of Death only means the demigods can't die of natural death, grow old or meet their "fated" death. If you hit them hard enough they'll die anyway however.
I don’t think this is the case tbh. They warred with each other and weren’t able to kill one another. I think during this war they probably died but revived until they were forsaken by the greater will and grace. This is probably what also caused their stalemate as they realized they would die and not revive. I think they lost the sigh of grace which prevents them from reviving. The greater will states it has forsaken the demigods. You, however, still see grace and still revive. A “rare thing” in the lands between. Destined death is also called “death indiscriminate”. I think its removal from the elden ring caused death to discriminate between those with grace and those without it.
If they were really immortal, why fight at all? It would have been obviously a waste of time and they wouldn't have bothered at all. Besides, resurrecting after death is something only the Tarnished returned by Marika's Grace can do, not anyone else. Only the Tarnished are confirmed to have been able to return from the dead out of the entire cast of characters in the game. Grace comes from Marika, not the Greater Will. You realize this by Melina's dialogue that quotes Marika, when she tells the Tarnished themselves that she is going to remove Grace from them and exile them, but she also tells them that one day they would return to the Lands Between to brandish the Elden Ring. This is to say that when Marika removed Grace from the Tarnished she was already planning their return down the line. Also, Grace guides us toward our next destinations, frequently pointing toward places that the Fingers and the Greater Will would never approve of, like the Forge of the Giants for the purpose of burning the Erdtree. Indeed, the Greater Will's presence is nowhere to be seen by the game's modern times, the Erdtree with Radagon and the Elden Beast is sealed from the inside the doesn't want anyone to enter, the Fingers are totally confused and don't understand why the Erdtree is closed, and the reason is that they haven't been able to contact the Greater Will at all for a very long time. The demigods were never endowed with that kind of Grace.
I mean I might be wrong about the demigods but I think they were warring for the shattered runes not to kill each other. We don’t know how many times those runes exchanged hands before settling into the status quo as we find it. Again I might be wrong on this front but I do think grace once favored the demigods but does no longer. What I do feel confident about is that grace determines who can resurrect and who remains dead. It’s “death descriminate”. I see Grace as divine purpose. It guides us, literally, and it gives us life, literally. Those who abandon their divine purpose (like Rogier) lose their ability to live forever.
That dialogue alludes to a plan by Marika but that does not mean she is the one giving us Grace now. It's pretty clear that it is the Two Fingers and the GW as numerous dialogues confirm, from the Two Fingers themselves to Varre talking about how they called us back to help the GW. The only evidence people have to say it is Marika is that dialogue from Melina, which is confusing and could imply many things. Additionally, not saying you are lying but where was it confirmed we are coming back through the Grace and that we are the only ones? I read somewhere that someone said this in an interview (Miyazaki) but I can't find it and I can't find any lore that states it. But I could be missing something.
But the Fingers are powerless and rambling in the modern day. Their original purpose was lost long ago, they are left utterly confused by the Erdtree being shut down, and the Greater Will is nowhere to be seen. The Fingers appear to powerless that even Enia is willing to basically ignore them entirely after reaching the Erdtree, and Gideon too gives them no concern. The Greater Will appears completely cut off from the world, and the Fingers definitely aren't extending Grace because Grace points us toward burning the Erdtree. > Additionally, not saying you are lying but where was it confirmed we are coming back through the Grace and that we are the only ones? I read somewhere that someone said this in an interview (Miyazaki) but I can't find it and I can't find any lore that states it. But I could be missing something. I think it was explicitly stated in Overture of Elden Ring, but I would argue that the notion of Grace bringing the dead to life and this not happening to anyone else is possible to figure out by remembering how the major Tarnished of the intro are all depicted as having died and been brought back to the Lands Between by the manifestation of Grace, while this never happens to the regular people of the Lands Between.
The Two Fingers aren’t powerless. That’s a huge generalization that has bo basis in the reality. They are very much not what they once were given the time it’s taken for them to find a lord, but no one is ignoring them lol. Burning the Erdtree is considered heresy but the Two Fingers aren’t saying anything against it because at that point they stop communicating with us. Enia states that neither they nor the GW would permit it but she is clearly at a loss and emphasizes that maybe it isn’t a sin any longer. No one saw it coming that Radagon would prevent a new lord, given how loyal he is to the GW…but it turns out he loves the Golden Order more. When you enter the Erdtree, Marika is clearly no longer really existing and Radagon, whose seal is actively keeping you out, is all that is left of her. So it wouldn’t make sense for Marika to be guiding you. Tanith says the Erdtree blessed the tarnished with Grace but most other dialogue says it was the Two Fingers and sometimes this is stated as if the sources are interchangeable. The Greater Will is not cut off. That would defeat the entire purpose of being Elden Lord. I’m guessing you are saying this because of the intro dialogue? That’s specifically talking about the GW abandoning the Demigods…as the Two Fingers themselves confirm. That’s a character in the fame being backed up by objective narration. People have this hang up where they think Enia and the Two Fingers are lying about something but they aren’t. There is no basis for this.
The word "immortal" has many meanings. And we don't know if they are presently immortal. Their immortality comes as a result of Destined Death being removed from Elden Ring. The Elden Ring is no more.
\[Not really an answer, more of a misplaced musing as to why our gaming group accepts it as normal.\] So, I have a head canon that is completely unrelated to FS's provided information about this, but it helps me bridge the gap in a larger gaming universe that makes some cognitive dissonance less. The Lands Between are surrounded by mist (stated, we come from the lands beyond the fog/mist). There is a really great planar representation that fits the cosmogony required for 1.) Once you're in, you can't get out, 2.) Everything is in a cycle, repeats, and is trapped forever, 3.) The plane just "rebuilds" dead things when you aren't looking (grace reset). The Plane of Shadow, and specifically: **The Domains of Dread.** In our roleplay circle, Elden Ring takes place in the 18th Domain of Dread, part of the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow, and the purpose of those planes is to act as a prison. Now, the DLC kinda muddies this head canon up a bit, because they have an actual shadow plane thing going on there... but... It otherwise fits for why everything happens again, your journey can be started over, and why the plane restructures things around it. (Nifty little D&D crossover for our gameplay that we enjoy.) It also makes a compelling stance for why none of the Gods and Demigods can escape (Though Ranni claims to leave and start the age of stars... we never see it completely happen--if you keep playing after that, nothing changes.) We can even imagine that "sites of grace" are slivers of the positive energy plane seeping through (or perhaps they are manufactured points of light to help us feel hope, only to dash it away at the next turn.) Either way, the demigods et al are trapped in this prison plane just as much as we are, so them "dying" isn't so useful to their ability to escape the prison. Of course, we like to make logic where gameplay doesn't meet lore/story in the games we play, because having mechanics that do not fit your narrative design is just... exhausting for immersion. We had a similar experience with resurrection in world of warcraft---magically players can be rezzed but not npcs? Except Crusader Bridenbrad in WotLK, but that's another story altogether).
They're the same as everything else in the lands between. They can die but they are resurrected in the mausoleums. All the other living things die and get buried so they can respawn through the roots of the erdtree. Godwyn was wrongly buried at the roots and he ended up clogging it up.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange eons even death may die."
Immortal means to live forever they won't die from old age but they can still be killed, where as invincible means they can't be killed. Similar but 2 very different things from each other hope this helps.
We take their great tune rendering them buster status
The title of “Demigod” doesn’t seem to have the same meaning in ER as it does in Greek Myth or something similar. The title of Demigod just seems to be a sort of nobility term one gets after entering Marika’s royal family, since Rykard, Ranni and Radahn (whom have no relation to Marika and are essentially just very powerful descendants of Caria) all receive the title just by being Marika’s stepchildren.
This depends on how far you take the Radagon = Marika statement (which I'm sure will be elaborated on in 2 weeks), because if you take it at face value they have an extreme relation to her. Obviously she "raised them" to that status when Rad came back, but this is also assuming they were separate entities initially.
I’ve always preferred the separate at first theory, because it makes the story and Marika’s intentions make more sense thematically.
Also they aren’t necessarily “immortal” as you would think, essentially the lack of a rune of death in the Elden Ring causes things in the world to just go on indefinitely, but things can still he slain and decline in physical health (the wandering nobles look like that because they’re starved for runes), so the Demigods which have access to readily available runes are still fresh even after the Shattering. Basically things can still be killed but are buried with the Erdtree’s roots in Catacombs so they can have their runes harvested and be reborn.
Morgott is the perfect example of this. He is nothing but a withered husk after we take his Great Rune
Don't believe what you're told. The words God, demigod, empyrean... these are just titles. Each character is different in their own way, and we do different things to them.
So the in-world belief, as golden order theology/philosophy tells it, they aren't dead. Their spirits are making their way to the Erdtree's roots so they can be absorbed and hopefully one day "reborn". We don't really have evidence (as far as I'm aware) of beings actually being reborn from the Erdtree. I don't doubt that these spirits, and corpses, are being absorbed into the Erdtree, but I do doubt that rebirth is even a thing in the Marika's order. I think she has engineered Death in such a way that everything that dies, rather than "moving on" and effectively ceasing to exist, they are absorbed and fed on by the Erdtree, providing her and the Greater Will power. They are used as fuel much like Humanity was in DS1, feeding the Age of Fire. My personal theory going into the DLC is that the Erdtree was built from a mass sacrifice of people and it has to keep being fed in order to continue existing. It could be that that's the real offense of the Omens and Those Who Live In Death. They don't "feed the fire" when they die and therefore are a threat to the GO's supremacy.
My understanding is that “removing destined death” made death “discriminate”. Those who see grace get revived while those who have lost the sight of it remain dead. Most folks in the lands between have lost the sight of grace and talk about that fact often.
Which is nuts because all the footsoldiers still see Grace I guess?
Yeah I wonder about that too lol but I see grace as “divine purpose” and those who stray from their divine purpose lose grace (e.g. Rogier) and what is a foot soldier if not someone who follows a pre-ordained path set out for them by someone up the foodchain?
Easy, Hewg, smiths God slaying weapons...
Someone missed the entire Ranni Questkine or all mention of the rune of death.
They arent immortal anymore, nothing is fully immortal since The Night of Black Knives broke the original Rune of Death. Death is no longer fully sealed by Malikeths blade, there are pieces scattered as Deathroot and even when all deathroot is collected, theres still some missing as Gurranq states. Likely the red/black shard in Marika if i had to guess. It seems natural death, like that from aging and disease, seems to still be sealed or mostly sealed, as there are putrid corpses eaten to the bone by poison and rot, but they still cling to life same as the wandering nobles. It does seem like things can be killed through wounds though, or through more violent means. When we collect runes from killing something, its because they DID die. We get some runes while The Erdtree sucks up some too to stay alive, thats the entire point of Remembrances. A remembrance is an echo of what runes The Erdtree did claim, and you can use it to partially recreate the power wielded by that foe.
I think the thing missing here is Grace. Many NPCs remark on the fact that it is surprising and rare that the player is blessed with grace. In the opening cutscene we are shown to be revived when “grace is once again bestowed” on us. Grace allows revivification. It’s how death “discriminates” in the Lands Between. It also seems to be a way the Greater Will favors people. The GW had “forsaken the demigods”. I think they’ve stopped resurrecting because they’ve lost grace/ the favor of the GW. This is also likely why they stopped fighting each other. Before, they could count on reviving after dying but now they can’t and they don’t want to play chicken because for the first time they have real mortality. This makes Radahn really interesting too. He doesn’t see grace, is holding back the sky for important reasons, but is willing to risk death anyway for the glory of another fight. Why? Grace also seems to be a metaphor for divine purpose. This purpose keeps people immortal but a lack of it causes death. When people abandon their purpose or show fickleness it also causes the GW to abandon them in kind.
Immortal vs Unkillable
They can die since the rune of death was stolen - literally the entire plot of the game
Nah, you're wrong. A fragment of the run of death was stolen and inscribed upon the black knives used to kill godwyn and ranni. Demigods were never immortal in the sense that they can't be killed. They are like Tolkiens elves. Can live forever but can still be slain in battle. I'm sure they can also be revived or rebornnvia grace or the erdtree respectively.
Nope; you are wrong. Since Marika become God and the age of the erdtree began - everyone was immortal since death was sealed away; this is when people are reborn through the Erdtree. After the night of black lives this is no longer the case- hence why the demigods can be killed aswell as other tarnished.
So then tell me buddy, why do we have to unseal the death rune if it's already unsealed? They stole a "fragment" of the rune. They did not unseal the whole rune. Otherwise we wouldn't see nobles cursed with eternal life wandering. Furthermore if everyone was always immortal even to death blows from weaponry erdtree burials wouldn't be a thing.
We unseal the rest of the rune of death in order to burn the erdtree - people still die before that happens hence why we kill most of the demigods before that point bro. Hence why we can kill other tarnished in that time aswell - the exception is us respawning but that is just a gameplay mechanic that doesn’t actually need a lore explanation - hence why we aren’t playing a roguelike game. Everything I’m saying has been said explicitly in the story trailer for Elden ring (I think but don’t quote as not 100% sure - been a while since I watched that) and also during the game itself. The fragment of destined death was stolen by Ranni which allowed Goldwyn to die aswell as herself. She died in flesh and he died spirit. That’s why Marika went menopause, and that’s why we can now kill demigods. That’s literally the entire plot point of the game and shame on you for not realising it but hey; half the fun of fromsoftware games is people filling in the gaps with their own head canons and fake lore so you do you brother; I couldn’t care less whether you think I am wrong or not lmao - I already know 👊 Also to hit your point on erdtree burials - they were a thing due to the immortality; you became reborn through the erdtree since destined death was sealed. This happened PRIOR to our playthroughs and Elden ring beginning as a game and the burials we see are from BEFORE the night of black knives. Which is why we don’t see any new burials by erdtree after we start playing the game. One final point - the fact that only a fragment of the rune of death was stolen as opposed to the entire rune of death, is the in lore reason for why undead appear - skeletons for E.g; “those that live in death” (see D’s entire questline”
You're right bro. It's not like I literally just said a fragment of the rune of death was stolen and etched upon the black knives. I'm well aware of the conspiracy involving a "fragment" of the rune of death. However I simply disagree that that's why the demigods can be killed. I think they've always been killable. Hence why you only need the ancient dragon smiting stone to kill a God, not a demigod. But keep living in la-la land assuming your interpretation is gospel lol
You get the ancient dragon smithing stone before you burn the erdtree bro - so that’s not what allows us to kill a god; and also - you can kill Marika on SL 1 without a +10/25 weapon so it’s not the ancient dragon smithing stone that allows us to kill Marika. We needed to burn the erdtree to get the chance is all- but after the night of black knives everyone can die gods included. We can agree to disagree, I’m not trying to persuade you otherwise or change your head canon - but I am right 😂
As an addendum, the rune of death was intended to give godwyn a "true" death. One in which his spirit and body was slain. This would prevent him from being reborn via the erdtree. All this being said its all up for debate. Maybe get off your high fucking horse buddy