I'll admit, I'm new to fromsoft dlcs, but the two trailers we've gotten seem to explicitly hint at giving us answers, don't they? Is that common with them too, without ever actually answering anything?
I'd say it's only partially true. I mean, the DLCs do always present a plenty of new questions, that's very true. But I think that they also present answers if you dig deep enough. There were answers to be found in the Ringed City and in the Hunter's Nightmare.
My bet is still the DLC won't solve anything on this matter but instead will add even more confusion by implying that Marika is Radagon is the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
Honestly always thought it was cause she is a *god* she above the mortal idea of simply inhabiting one body and only being able to be one person. Like how Zeus would go about shapeshifting to go fuck with us lowly mortals.
Kinda couldve gone the route of she imagined a new body for herself but male so what happened is that we got what Marika wouldve been if she had been born with XY chromosomes rather than XX plus any physical changes she decided on, for example the red hair. Itd explain the curse of the children seeing how youre basically have the same person having kids with themselves, coulda just been a thing of Marika popping Radagons sperm into herself or her just making it so that she’d just *be* pregnant with Radagons children. “Curse” of the children could just be the divine equivalent of when the closeness of the people committing incest gets taken up a lot of notches.
I just always thought of it similar to the Christian religion where God is father son and holy spirit (3 in 1)
I just took this to be similar. Marika is radagon (2 in 1)
That's fair, but also I think Marika is meant to have a past before being chosen by the Greater Will, so it's kinda weird to think she's always been two in one.
But this made me realize, what if the Two Fingers are meant to represent Marika and Radagon? And if that's the case, what if the Three Fingers mean Shabriri used to be part of Marika too? A weird tangent I know, but I just thought of that and had to get it out now. There isn't much proof of that, but it'd definitely fit the dlc theme of erasing the past
Hyetta says: "All that there is came from the **One** Great. Then came **fractures**, and births, and souls. But the Greater Will made a mistake..."
The default ending of the game is also called the Age of Fracture, and the version of Marika we see at the end of the game is known as Fractured Marika. This would appear to hint that her split is a form of "fracture", that was derived from the Greater Will's massive error. Now it appears that when you become an empyrean you become fractured into two minds or souls, similar to Miquella also being St. Trina. Marika admitting she is Radagon would imply the Greater Will is a flawed deity and be blasphemous, so she didn't.
Goldmask becomes stunned at this fact when he learns about it because he realizes the Greater Will is fallible, and by extension the demigods themselves don't have absolute authority, which leads him to create his Mending Rune of Perfect Order to remove the demigods' influence.
So tl;dr, it is an inevitable aftereffect of the Greater Will's mistake, that broke apart the One Great.
My read on the Flame of Frenzy is that is it is an ontological threat. When Shabriri says “all that divides and distinguishes” he means like the [very idea](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiddity) that something can be one thing and not another–that a tree, a fish, and a person have some characteristic that make them different from each other. “Fracture” “souls” and “birth” being equated suggests that any kind of individuation, even at the most profound philosophical levels, is objectionable to him and the Flame of Frenzy.
It is very obvious that the One Great fracturing is referring to a cosmic event far more universal and primordial than whatever happened during Marika's existence, Hyetta is talking about the cosmos itself, not simply the Lands Between.
Miquella, Malenia, the Gloam Eyed-Queen and Ranni aren't "fractured" into different persons, Saint Trina is an identity of Miquella, like a disguise, not another person.
Why would her admitting she is Radagon imply the Greater Will is a "flawed deity" and "be blasphemous"? Blasphemous towards what?
Goldmask is shocked to discover this was all the manipulation of a single person and the cause of the empyreans being cursed along with many things in the Lands Between, while he was trusting and worshipping them both for all this time.
And it logically doesn't even make sense, the Greater Will is the result from the fracture of the One Great, how could it preexist its creation?
Alright, you have a fair point that the error by the Greater Will came after the fracture rather than before. Still doesn't change the essence of my theory that the "fracture" is what caused the split empyreans. And Ranni is also clearly split, as she has a separate ghostly face.
Now I don't really have a theory why Marika hides herself being Radagon besides it being a weakness for people to exploit, but I still think it answers the question of how he came to be.
The fracture has caused the distinction of every beings that were previously parts of the Great One before being fractured into individualities, it is the cause of Radagon and Marika just like it is the cause of everyone else, so I don't understand what you mean. It seems you are mistaking this fracture as somehting that would have caused them to be split, but this fracture is a primordial cosmic event that preexisted all those people.
Ranni's spirit is inhabiting the doll, her spectral figure is her spirit, her physical figure is her body, she isn't split.
> It seems you are mistaking this fracture as somehting that would have caused them to be split, but this fracture is a primordial cosmic event that preexisted all those people.
The fracture could have happened long ago and still be relevant now, similar to something like the Cosmic Microwave Background. It could have become an intrinsic part of the universe.
> her spectral figure is her spirit
Ok, proof? I'm not really sure why her spirit would be *outside* her doll body.
Then by saying that the fracture caused the splitting of Marika and Radagon you are implying a causal link that is as vague as saying that the Big Bang is the cause of us interacting right now in this comment session.
There isn't proof about anything, we are talking interpretations of elements, not facts of the game like "Malenia and Radahn fought in Caelid", this attitude is often taken by people who have no idea what a proof is.
There are multiple explanations hinted at in the game already. Characters have a tendancy to exist in multiple forms, such as Margot projecting himself to stormveil via spirit form and sellen projecting herself across limgrave while beeing jailed.
Then there are the puppets and spirit ashes which seems to be a way to clone or summon beeings.
There is also the duality of characters such as the brothers D, miquella and ofcourse radagon & marika.
I think the explanation is probably in there somewhere but its difficult to sift out exactly what is relevant and what is just a red herring. Most of it links back to either the primeval current/glintstone or the nox and their silver tears which both seems like likely explanations.
There is nothing alike with Morgot appearing under a secret identity and Marika/Radagon being a litteral dyadic entity.
The spirit ashes are way to clone beings? WTF?
What about the "duality" of character?
Your answer feels like answering a bunch of randomness at school when you don't know the answer.
Maybe the focus shouldnt be his secret identity and more that in the lands between it is not impossible and almost common to exist in multiple forms at the same time? Gurranq exists in caelid to collect deathroot while at the same time Hiding in farrum azula. Sellen can project herself from her confinement and also beeing able to switch bodies when neccesary.
The spirit ashes are clearly a way to imprint a being or to create a clone of someone who has previously existed. Just like the silver tears are a way to create copies of beings but in a more primitive way.
The duality of radagon and markia is just not as original in the lands between as it might seem at first glance.
Also, your answer feels like a little kid dismissing everyone elses thoughts while not contributing anything to the conversation yourself. Grow up.
Who else exist in mutiple forms at the same time? Gurranq only is in Caelid while being in Farum Azula because it is beyond time, switching bodies and projecting yourself isn't "existing in mutiple forms", it's like saying I exist in multiple forms while I am having a zoom video meeting with someone because I am both in my room and appearing in his computer.
The spirit ashes are spirits, besides Latenna which isn't explained for gameplay convenience, I really don't understand how someone would understand this as "making a clone of someone".
The duality of Radagon and Marika is literally the only case in the game.
What did I do or say that was alike "a little kid"? I am comparing your comment ironically to a student not knowing how to answer by analogy, you're just trying to be incisive saying random things you hope will be upsetting. Just focus on the discussion.
My current contribution is correcting your vague misconceptions.
Upsetting? I don't understand how anything I wrote could be concidered upsetting.
You must have some amazing zoom meetings if you can physically affect the world on the other end of the call. What morgott, sellen, godfrey and other characters do is clearly more than what you would attribute to a phonecall concidering their zoom calls can kill you/ trade with you and interact with their world.
What are spirits according to you? When you summon a spirit in the lands between, is it the same spirit being pulled into your world again and again to fight and die over and over again or is it an imprint/memory of that original beeing? Does that mean that according to you all Living things in the lands between live on as spirits?
You clearly missed my point again. Marika and radagon is not the only instance of a person existing in mutliple forms at the same time. They arent even the only instance of a being having multiple identities. The brothers D are clearly seperate beeings sharing one Soul (according to ingame item descriptions). Miquella/ trina is another instance of a being containing mutliple personalites.
I think you dismiss these things that were clearly included in the game for a reason (or multiple) while they might hold some truth or explanation as to how Radagon/marika can coexist.
Feign not to understand your own intentions when you tell someone to "Grow up" and maybe consider your own suggestion in the process.
I physically affect the world on the other end of the call by creating alterations on my interlcutor's screen and space by moving and making noises. Godfrey isn't even projecting, it is implied to be an illusion made by Morgot. It doesn't change that projecting yourself isn't existing in two different forms unless you're twitsing the meaning of this enough and in this case many things could be said to exist in two or more different forms, like me and my friend during our zoom meetings.
Spirits are spirits, simple as it is and as named by the tool we use, they are "summoned" near the "rebirth monuments" from their ashes. According to Latenna's description, she willingly decided to become a spirit and is also "ashen remains", maybe we are to understand she decided to die to join ourselves. Yes, it seems that many spirits are roaming in the Lands Between being unable to be called back to the Erdtree.
All the "instances" you give are different things than Marika and Radagon who are a dyadic entity, the single case in the game. Marika and Radagon also don't have "multiple identities" or haven't been given to for the moment, they are two different persons constituting a single entity, and the birth and existence of such an individual is the central mystery of the game and the DLC to come. The brothers are two distinct persons with their own bodies and personalities yet sharing a same soul, and as already explained Saint Trina is an identity of Miquella, not two being and two personalities, it would be like saying that a drag queen is two different persons.
I am not dismissing anything, I am correcting your understanding of those things since you're mistaking different things as being identical.
Gurraq can do his thing because Farum is beyond time.
Spirit ashes are not clone, they are what they are called, spirits. They were once alive now they're dead. Their spirit fights with you. Some spirit ashes are made to do so against their will, they are called puppets. You get them from Seluvis.
Puppets are material, we can see some of them in Seluvis hideout and it is implied that he uses them for perverted support, what we are given is the spirit of the puppets, but the items are called puppets instead of ashes or spirit making it confusing.
I know Lantenna is dying, I am saying it isn't explicit at all and quite confusing.
Hah, thinking you get answers in a fromsoft dlc. My sweet summerchild
I'll admit, I'm new to fromsoft dlcs, but the two trailers we've gotten seem to explicitly hint at giving us answers, don't they? Is that common with them too, without ever actually answering anything?
You normally get new questions without answers I'd say
I'd say it's only partially true. I mean, the DLCs do always present a plenty of new questions, that's very true. But I think that they also present answers if you dig deep enough. There were answers to be found in the Ringed City and in the Hunter's Nightmare.
My bet is still the DLC won't solve anything on this matter but instead will add even more confusion by implying that Marika is Radagon is the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
Fusion dance.
Honestly always thought it was cause she is a *god* she above the mortal idea of simply inhabiting one body and only being able to be one person. Like how Zeus would go about shapeshifting to go fuck with us lowly mortals. Kinda couldve gone the route of she imagined a new body for herself but male so what happened is that we got what Marika wouldve been if she had been born with XY chromosomes rather than XX plus any physical changes she decided on, for example the red hair. Itd explain the curse of the children seeing how youre basically have the same person having kids with themselves, coulda just been a thing of Marika popping Radagons sperm into herself or her just making it so that she’d just *be* pregnant with Radagons children. “Curse” of the children could just be the divine equivalent of when the closeness of the people committing incest gets taken up a lot of notches.
Aren’t they an alchemic rebis?
I think the closest comparison is Doctor Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
I just always thought of it similar to the Christian religion where God is father son and holy spirit (3 in 1) I just took this to be similar. Marika is radagon (2 in 1)
That's fair, but also I think Marika is meant to have a past before being chosen by the Greater Will, so it's kinda weird to think she's always been two in one. But this made me realize, what if the Two Fingers are meant to represent Marika and Radagon? And if that's the case, what if the Three Fingers mean Shabriri used to be part of Marika too? A weird tangent I know, but I just thought of that and had to get it out now. There isn't much proof of that, but it'd definitely fit the dlc theme of erasing the past
Well she was always empyrean. And I feel like her power came with that, just like miquella seems to have always been St Trina as well
Hyetta says: "All that there is came from the **One** Great. Then came **fractures**, and births, and souls. But the Greater Will made a mistake..." The default ending of the game is also called the Age of Fracture, and the version of Marika we see at the end of the game is known as Fractured Marika. This would appear to hint that her split is a form of "fracture", that was derived from the Greater Will's massive error. Now it appears that when you become an empyrean you become fractured into two minds or souls, similar to Miquella also being St. Trina. Marika admitting she is Radagon would imply the Greater Will is a flawed deity and be blasphemous, so she didn't. Goldmask becomes stunned at this fact when he learns about it because he realizes the Greater Will is fallible, and by extension the demigods themselves don't have absolute authority, which leads him to create his Mending Rune of Perfect Order to remove the demigods' influence. So tl;dr, it is an inevitable aftereffect of the Greater Will's mistake, that broke apart the One Great.
My read on the Flame of Frenzy is that is it is an ontological threat. When Shabriri says “all that divides and distinguishes” he means like the [very idea](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiddity) that something can be one thing and not another–that a tree, a fish, and a person have some characteristic that make them different from each other. “Fracture” “souls” and “birth” being equated suggests that any kind of individuation, even at the most profound philosophical levels, is objectionable to him and the Flame of Frenzy.
It is very obvious that the One Great fracturing is referring to a cosmic event far more universal and primordial than whatever happened during Marika's existence, Hyetta is talking about the cosmos itself, not simply the Lands Between. Miquella, Malenia, the Gloam Eyed-Queen and Ranni aren't "fractured" into different persons, Saint Trina is an identity of Miquella, like a disguise, not another person. Why would her admitting she is Radagon imply the Greater Will is a "flawed deity" and "be blasphemous"? Blasphemous towards what? Goldmask is shocked to discover this was all the manipulation of a single person and the cause of the empyreans being cursed along with many things in the Lands Between, while he was trusting and worshipping them both for all this time. And it logically doesn't even make sense, the Greater Will is the result from the fracture of the One Great, how could it preexist its creation?
Alright, you have a fair point that the error by the Greater Will came after the fracture rather than before. Still doesn't change the essence of my theory that the "fracture" is what caused the split empyreans. And Ranni is also clearly split, as she has a separate ghostly face. Now I don't really have a theory why Marika hides herself being Radagon besides it being a weakness for people to exploit, but I still think it answers the question of how he came to be.
The fracture has caused the distinction of every beings that were previously parts of the Great One before being fractured into individualities, it is the cause of Radagon and Marika just like it is the cause of everyone else, so I don't understand what you mean. It seems you are mistaking this fracture as somehting that would have caused them to be split, but this fracture is a primordial cosmic event that preexisted all those people. Ranni's spirit is inhabiting the doll, her spectral figure is her spirit, her physical figure is her body, she isn't split.
> It seems you are mistaking this fracture as somehting that would have caused them to be split, but this fracture is a primordial cosmic event that preexisted all those people. The fracture could have happened long ago and still be relevant now, similar to something like the Cosmic Microwave Background. It could have become an intrinsic part of the universe. > her spectral figure is her spirit Ok, proof? I'm not really sure why her spirit would be *outside* her doll body.
Then by saying that the fracture caused the splitting of Marika and Radagon you are implying a causal link that is as vague as saying that the Big Bang is the cause of us interacting right now in this comment session. There isn't proof about anything, we are talking interpretations of elements, not facts of the game like "Malenia and Radahn fought in Caelid", this attitude is often taken by people who have no idea what a proof is.
There are multiple explanations hinted at in the game already. Characters have a tendancy to exist in multiple forms, such as Margot projecting himself to stormveil via spirit form and sellen projecting herself across limgrave while beeing jailed. Then there are the puppets and spirit ashes which seems to be a way to clone or summon beeings. There is also the duality of characters such as the brothers D, miquella and ofcourse radagon & marika. I think the explanation is probably in there somewhere but its difficult to sift out exactly what is relevant and what is just a red herring. Most of it links back to either the primeval current/glintstone or the nox and their silver tears which both seems like likely explanations.
There is nothing alike with Morgot appearing under a secret identity and Marika/Radagon being a litteral dyadic entity. The spirit ashes are way to clone beings? WTF? What about the "duality" of character? Your answer feels like answering a bunch of randomness at school when you don't know the answer.
Maybe the focus shouldnt be his secret identity and more that in the lands between it is not impossible and almost common to exist in multiple forms at the same time? Gurranq exists in caelid to collect deathroot while at the same time Hiding in farrum azula. Sellen can project herself from her confinement and also beeing able to switch bodies when neccesary. The spirit ashes are clearly a way to imprint a being or to create a clone of someone who has previously existed. Just like the silver tears are a way to create copies of beings but in a more primitive way. The duality of radagon and markia is just not as original in the lands between as it might seem at first glance. Also, your answer feels like a little kid dismissing everyone elses thoughts while not contributing anything to the conversation yourself. Grow up.
Who else exist in mutiple forms at the same time? Gurranq only is in Caelid while being in Farum Azula because it is beyond time, switching bodies and projecting yourself isn't "existing in mutiple forms", it's like saying I exist in multiple forms while I am having a zoom video meeting with someone because I am both in my room and appearing in his computer. The spirit ashes are spirits, besides Latenna which isn't explained for gameplay convenience, I really don't understand how someone would understand this as "making a clone of someone". The duality of Radagon and Marika is literally the only case in the game. What did I do or say that was alike "a little kid"? I am comparing your comment ironically to a student not knowing how to answer by analogy, you're just trying to be incisive saying random things you hope will be upsetting. Just focus on the discussion. My current contribution is correcting your vague misconceptions.
Upsetting? I don't understand how anything I wrote could be concidered upsetting. You must have some amazing zoom meetings if you can physically affect the world on the other end of the call. What morgott, sellen, godfrey and other characters do is clearly more than what you would attribute to a phonecall concidering their zoom calls can kill you/ trade with you and interact with their world. What are spirits according to you? When you summon a spirit in the lands between, is it the same spirit being pulled into your world again and again to fight and die over and over again or is it an imprint/memory of that original beeing? Does that mean that according to you all Living things in the lands between live on as spirits? You clearly missed my point again. Marika and radagon is not the only instance of a person existing in mutliple forms at the same time. They arent even the only instance of a being having multiple identities. The brothers D are clearly seperate beeings sharing one Soul (according to ingame item descriptions). Miquella/ trina is another instance of a being containing mutliple personalites. I think you dismiss these things that were clearly included in the game for a reason (or multiple) while they might hold some truth or explanation as to how Radagon/marika can coexist.
Feign not to understand your own intentions when you tell someone to "Grow up" and maybe consider your own suggestion in the process. I physically affect the world on the other end of the call by creating alterations on my interlcutor's screen and space by moving and making noises. Godfrey isn't even projecting, it is implied to be an illusion made by Morgot. It doesn't change that projecting yourself isn't existing in two different forms unless you're twitsing the meaning of this enough and in this case many things could be said to exist in two or more different forms, like me and my friend during our zoom meetings. Spirits are spirits, simple as it is and as named by the tool we use, they are "summoned" near the "rebirth monuments" from their ashes. According to Latenna's description, she willingly decided to become a spirit and is also "ashen remains", maybe we are to understand she decided to die to join ourselves. Yes, it seems that many spirits are roaming in the Lands Between being unable to be called back to the Erdtree. All the "instances" you give are different things than Marika and Radagon who are a dyadic entity, the single case in the game. Marika and Radagon also don't have "multiple identities" or haven't been given to for the moment, they are two different persons constituting a single entity, and the birth and existence of such an individual is the central mystery of the game and the DLC to come. The brothers are two distinct persons with their own bodies and personalities yet sharing a same soul, and as already explained Saint Trina is an identity of Miquella, not two being and two personalities, it would be like saying that a drag queen is two different persons. I am not dismissing anything, I am correcting your understanding of those things since you're mistaking different things as being identical.
Gurraq can do his thing because Farum is beyond time. Spirit ashes are not clone, they are what they are called, spirits. They were once alive now they're dead. Their spirit fights with you. Some spirit ashes are made to do so against their will, they are called puppets. You get them from Seluvis.
The fact that you use the puppets with the bell too and that Latenna isn’t explicitly dying at all can be confusing though I would admit
Puppets are spirits too, so why wouldn't the bell work? And Latenna is dying. You carry her spirit.
Puppets are material, we can see some of them in Seluvis hideout and it is implied that he uses them for perverted support, what we are given is the spirit of the puppets, but the items are called puppets instead of ashes or spirit making it confusing. I know Lantenna is dying, I am saying it isn't explicit at all and quite confusing.
How could 4. works? You clearly see Radagon and Marika are different persons, they don't look alike