Kenneth's character arc of being disturbed by seeing a Tarnished (which is pretty normal for people in the Lands apparently) to deciding that a Tarnished is the best fit to rule Limgrave is just beautiful.
The very first thing he does when he meets you is to confront those biases! I think it's a pretty big deal that right away he decides, "actually, this Tarnished *is* good enough!"
Fun Fact about this whole questline at one point during development Gostoc was Godricks son and rightful heir. Zullie found some cut lines from him about it and it seems like the quest used to be more open ended.
I naturally reached the end of Nepheli quest during my first playthrough, given that it was pre patches and ended with me given her that spirit bird.
Gostoc was just stomping on the head endlessly
I really doubt Gostoc was the true heir tho.
The only one that ever implies he may be of the golden lineage, is himself.
For someone wanting to be the king, specially someone as sleazy and shady as Gostoc, it'd make sense for them to lie about them being sons of royalty.
Tarnished are the people who were following Godfrey, First Elden Lord. When Marika expelled him and his warriors/followers from the Lands between, the tarnished were abandoned by grace and had to leave - and all the Golden Order Fundamentalists looked down on the tarnished because Marika herself issued this.
Melina has dialogue in the (third?) church of Marika about this, the one in the north-eastern part of limgrave, north of the Mistwood. Talk to her there for the exact citation
I figure that a tarnished could be anyone who somehow lost the guidance of grace, and Godfrey and his warriors were just the first people this happened to. I'm not sure if this is strictly canon or not, but it makes writing character backstories a lot more interesting
The only issue with that idea is that once you see the guidance of grace again, you're no longer tarnished, theoretically. Like, other characters ask us about the guidance of grace that we can see, but we're still Tarnished.
I think a Tarnished is anyone who at any point explicitly had their grace privilege removed. Even if you have it returned, the fact that it was removed in the first place makes you tarnished.
The Greater Will is the grace. The Tarnished were banished from the Lands Between, but after the Shattering the Greater Will chose to bring the Tarnished back. So at that point, the Tarnished are those who were brought back, not so much those who can see grace or not.
I actually disagree here!
It is queen Marika who brings the tarnished back and guides you with her graces and she is acting against the greater will.
It seems like anyhow the connection to the greater will is shattered as the fingers don’t actually have connection to it anymore (and therefore cannot help you and the finer reader tells you it may take thousands of years)
I'll admit I'm not fully sure about this, but I thought it was the Shattering itself in which Marika acted against the Greater Will, breaking the Elden Ring and severing the connection. Then later the Greater Will brought the Tarnished back to restore order.
I thought so too at first but here is evidence against it:
The graces are of Marika and lead you towards her and tell you her story including her hate towards Radagon and the greater will (in her bedchamber).
Melina also guides you who is likely the daughter of Marika (and possibly the twin or part of Ranni) and wants to burn down the erdtree which is against the greater will (according to the finger readers).
Marika also enslaved hewg to make him forge weapons that could kill a god for the roundtable (the tarnished). It is to kill Radagon and or the Elden beast to break the dominance of the greater will.
Radagon as the "hound of the golden Order“ is also the one who sealed the erdtree (his part of the Elden ring after all is seen at the closed door to the inner parts)
And last but not least - the fingers and finger reader didn’t even know that the erdtree was closed which is impossible if they are really still in contact with the greater will.
I'm still unclear on some things. Like, Roderika came from another continent? Does that mean there are other gods that influence those places? And where did our character come from? Where we "dead" before the start of the game? Or did we just start existing?
I think that speaks to how judgmental and close-minded the hyper-religious can be.
It doesn’t matter to them that you are back on the “good” path. You were a graceless heathen once, and that’s the image that sticks.
The thing is, every important tarnished CAN see grace, or at least saw it once while they revived for the first time.
All the important relevant tarnished in the introduction were dead; Hoarax Loux, Fia, Goldmask, Gideon, THE LOATHSOME DUNGEATER, and the tarnished of no reknown (Us) all had a sprite of grace appear before them while they revived, so the tarnished at some point where all dead and then revived once Marika called us back.
We don't know if after reviving, Fia, Goldmask, DE, or Gideon can see grace, but we do know that we and Hoarax can, as Morgott's body turns into guiding grace for Godfrey, pointing at us.
On the other hand, Tarnished outside the intro, mention that they cannot see grace, like Rodgier, and they do not respawn once dead (either by the player's hand, or through the story) even before we >!take the rune of destined death and supposedly death becomes permanent.!<.Sure, this happened too in the DS series, if you kill someone, they do not respawn, but there existed the Hollow Mechanic that stops you reviving once you lose the will to live.
Also, Melina has to revive us again after the opening, so she may be responsible for us reviving indefinitely.
On my God that makes so much sense now. I know they say it but I missed it until you said this. I found majority of explanations kept talking about this " the tarnished lost the grace of the big tree" which is almost a non sentence. I kept looking and I knew Godfrey was kicked to the curb but I've never put the two together until your comment.
I missed some dialogue with her because i simply didn't sit at the grace. There were so many times when i had full health and didn't need to rest, they should have made it so Melina would pop up automatically once you activated the grace.
Or make a shadow of her sitting next to the grace when you're near it, so you know she has something to say. That would also help people like me who got to Margott before talking to her the first time.
There is also an indication that >!Marika did this because she regretted the golden order and wanted people to grow strong on their own. Then come back and kick ass. Which is what we are doing by playing the game. !<
The Tarnished weren't only those who followed Godfrey in battle. Someone like Fia is also Tarnished who possibly had nothing to do with the Battle against the Giants
It's just people who have been stripped of grace for any number of reasons and their souls never returned to the Erdtree but stayed in a state of limbo in perpetuity until you were brought back to life to become Elden Lord
The tarnished are all (or mostly all?) dead too aren't they? Hence at the start of the game "saying arise ye tarnished" and showing dungeater being hanged, Gideon in his grave etc.
I've wondered if the open graves you find scattered around quite often with rune items everywhere aren't supposed to represent the tarnished coming back.
I'd like to add that all tarnished are canonically undead, that's why during the opening cutscene all of them are depicted as either dead or waking up from their tomb
I don't think the Tarnished were all followers of Godfrey tho.
GoldMask was just a phylosopher type guy, and Fia mentions how she was chilling in her village doing her work as a deathbed companion, when she lost sight of grace and was kicked out.
I think people can randomly lose sight of the grace, and become tarnished.
Melina:
>Spoken echoes of Queen Marika linger here, as well. Shall I share them with you? Very well. In Marika's own words.
>My Lord, and thy warriors. I divest each of thee of thy grace. With thine eyes dimmed, ye will be driven from the Lands Between. Ye will wage war in a land afar, where ye will live, and die.
>Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed.
Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring.
Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey.
>Well? Perhaps that might serve you in lieu of a maiden's guidance.
once tarnished, always tarnished. It just so happens that after your first death, Marika promised to return the lost grace - which is what happens. You die, you come back with your grace...supposedly stronger for the experience.
Do you have any idea \*WHY we fight Godfrey…?
If we, as tarnished, followed him into banishment from the Lands Between.
And why he would fight to protect Marika who dismissed him as soon as he wasn’t useful to her.
Godfrey doesn't go and protect the Golden Order, from what I caught he has little interest in that. He returns to become Elden Lord too (again). When we go back to the Erdtree after Farum Azula, he is there to enter the Erdtree as well. He then fights you, because there can only be one Elden Lord, and he then leaves it to us upon defeat, aknowledging that we, a tarnished warrior like him, have more strength than him. Compared to other bosses, he is much more appreciative of what we're doing and that we are a strong warrior.
At least that's how i perceive it
I believe Tarnished are quite literally just God-forsaken. It's like if god lives in your local town hall and randomly decides 20% of the population is unfit of their blessing. So the god takes the blessing away. The other 80% of the population would inherently distrust or dislike you, especially if the god also exiled the 20%.
Also I think lots of people dislike the pc just because we're walking around what amounts to their private war-gained holdings as an unknown outsider.
>randomly decides 20% of the population is unfit of their blessing
I don't think it's random. Everyone seems Tarnished for specific reasons
Fia, because she's a Deathbed Companion, Goldmask because he seems to have decided that the Golden Order wasn't perfect and was killed for it, Dung Eater cause fuck that dude, Hoarah Loux cause they were the first to be Tarnished after the Battle with the Giants and so on
To be serious, I wonder why Gideon was Tarnished. I wonder if it was because in his quest for knowledge, he found something he wasn't supposed to. He fights you towards the end but that *seems* like a realization he came to after becoming Tarnished. Considering he's a jolly good genocidal little fella, that might be why. Also I also wonder wtf is up with all those ears lol
Everyone was living happily in ignorance under the golden order when Marika decided everyone would be better if they experienced hardship and could find their“true faith.” So she removed the grace given by the golden order from Godfrey and his people, and expelled them from the land between. No longer having said grace, they became known as tarnished, and are viewed by those with grace as outcasts and heathens.
I’ve seen a pretty compelling argument that she may have been playing 4D chess by expelling Godfrey and his squad so they could one day return as hardened warriors and overthrow the Golden Order.
It's very possible that's what she was hoping for. Marika did not want the Greater Will to stay in charge, and more or less sabotaged the Golden Order.
I know this is a joke but I actually think the Tarnished may be more related to Nietzche’s idea of the Ubermensch.
Basically we’re abandoned by God, expelled into a lonely world without faith, then made to form our own ideals. From this we come out stronger, eventually return, >!and kill god. By the end “God is dead” and we’ve replaced it with our own order based on our ideals.!<
From what I understand, the tarnished were queen Marika's army when she needed to dominate the lands between. Once she was done with the army she took away their grace, told them to go conquer other lands and become better warriors, telling them that they would return to the lands between when the time is right, while promising to return their grace when that time came. They are called tarnished because she took away their grace, which, to pretty much everyone, looked as if she was deciding that they were unworthy. Elden Ring takes place in that "return when the time is right" time, which is why we have the guidance of grace
Souls lore is always so damn thoughtful and unique.
I'm reading through this comment chain like, "who comes up with this shit? This is so interesting!"
Imagine if Jesus or God himself came down from Heaven and blessed everyone on Earth then after like a couple of years removed his blessing of like 20% of the population.
That’s the tarnished. The blessed would obviously without any context distrust the tarnished.
Very simplified but it gives you an idea.
Don't forget, talked a whole bunch of shit about Gordick without even being asked about it. Spills all the tea on a bunch of demigods as your possibly first exposition dump about a few of them. Is entertaining AF.
Exactly. Biggest surprise was the fact that he turned out to be a just, honorable dude. From the first impression you expect such a douchey guy all the way but nah.
When you first meet Kenneth he definitely comes across as an arrogant asshole but the more you learn about him and progress his quest the more he seems like a pretty decent guy. It's a nice example of a From npc subverting your expectations in a good way.
You're sitting in the Middle of a psycho-Swamp where 6-armed deathriders roam. Literally everything here wants to kill you. A random tarnished (bad fame already), armed to the teeth and armored to the toes walks in.
Fuck yeah, I'd not want them around. Death is statistically *very* probable around that person.
Ah, yes, armed to the teeth and armored to the toes.
Definitely not two daggers and no clothes cus I started as a wretch and made a direct run for the reduvia.
To be fair, a nearly nude stranger with an eldritch blood knife might be worse.
Ever since meeting him he's been up there as a favorite. When he meets you he literally overcomes his prejudice and wishes to unite all under proper ruling rather than abandon them or punish like the Golden Order did. He even becomes more and more realistic over the quest, I love it, realizing he's misjudged his ability and the world. Fucking love Kenneth.
My opinion of him went through the roof when he went digging for a worthy ruler instead of trying to take control himself. He’s a rude little tart but I can appreciate his action.
Murder hobos kill this guy almost instantly and never get to find out what a legend he is. You fools, can’t you see his bluff and bravado is a persona he’s had to craft in his struggle to hold the region together?! Dude’s trying to protect people and prevent total societal collapse in the face of perpetual cosmic horror.
So after Morgott and you get Nepheli the Storm King ash, head back to Godrick. If Gostoc is still stomping, run to the Grace BEFORE and rest. Then head to the throne. Kenneth, Nepheli and Gostoc should all be there if their quests were done. Nepheli will hand you one for a reward and Gostoc will now sell one.
On my most recent playthrough even resting at that grace wasn't working, I had to go to each of the three and listen to their 'i don't really have anything else to say so I'm just going to repeat this one line' dialogue again, then return and rest at the grace. What a finicky quest.
Just did research on this a few days ago, apparently the last phase of his questline trigger only after you go up the lift to Mountain of the Giants. Haven't reached there in my second play through yet tho so no proof.
You actually don't need Kenny for the stones. I accidently killed him when mobs attacked us talking to him after the Fort quest was completed. I did Nepheli's quest fully before this and thought I fucked it but her and Gostoc went to Stormveil without him being alive.
Jesus fucking christ, just two weeks ago people told me if I killed gostoc he'd give my stolen runes back and I should just go ahead and do it since he doesnt have a further questline. I am going to commit vehicular manslaughter in a 2001 honda civic
Ah damn
That sucks tho, hes literally the only npc I killed since people assured me that hes not only useless, but Id also get all my runes back/not lose any more from deaths afterwards
Other than the merchants there are only two people you should kill if you want everything, and that's not until the very end of their quest lines . The first one is Gowry after Millicent’s quest and the second one is Tannith after you give her the dancer's castanets.
As of right now the quest has no resolution so I say kill her for her gear. At some point they might add in an ending but if you’re going to go into ng+ and don’t have her set there’s no reason to leave her alive
Gowry can also be safely killed if you helped Milicent and got the Rotten Winged Sword Talisman. At that point he'll drop the upgraded canvas talisman.
Also, according to Fextra if you want two Hoslow Petal whips you need to kill Diallos before he reaches Volcano Manor, so in Liurnia. I haven't tried it, but apparently he won't drop his whip if Jugo is killed and you complete his quest. Take that with a grain of salt though, because again, I haven't tested it personally.
You can now get a 2nd petal whip with Diallos' questline fixed. After killing Juno, Diallos leaves Volcano Manor and goes to Jarburg to live the good jar-life. After exhausting Jar-Bairn's and Diallos' new dialogue, rest and wait several times (or just so something else and come back later), and a certain series of events will unfold that will allow you to get Diallos' mask and whip. As well as tears shed from witnessing what unfolds.
coolest thing about this guy: he finds someone with a legitimate claim and everything. he just completely by accident manages to lord up >!the biological daughter of godfrey, the first elden lord!<
I just read the walkthrough of his quest line. I would never have completed this quest.. You need to meet up with several NPCs in different areas of the game that may or may not line up with your own progression and also rest at a specific site of grace. I eventually met this >!Nepheli Loux!< but I cannot give her any items. Meh.
I love Kenneth. Because when you first meet him, you think he's some arrogant and incomprtent royal. But when you follow his quest through, you see that this first impression is quite wrong. He's an honorable and upstanding man. Never judge a book by its cover.
Wholeheartedly agree. At first i thought he was some posh dickhead because of how he first reacted to us Tarnished. But then I did his questline, that's also when I learned I could help Nepheli without turning her into a damn puppet.
10/10 good bloke
There are some things they could do to make the Limgrave heir questline seem a little less strange or rushed, that would fit within the confines of what a patch could accomplish. I think it would make a lot of sense to turn all the demihumans inside his keep non-hostile when he is there, since he talks about being peaceful with them.
Gostoc is actually useful for something? After my first playthrough I kept killing him because
1. He locked you in a cell with a banished Knight
2. He was stealing runes from your death in Stormveil, but I guess that was a glitch
3. Dude has so much built up animosity he was stomping on Godrick's head for DAYS never relenting, and that's toxic asf especially coupled with his confrontational dialogue of the act.
I'll just have to kill him after getting the stone then, if it's not a safe zone.
>Dude has so much built up animosity he was stomping on Godrick's head for DAYS never relenting, and that's toxic asf especially coupled with his confrontational dialogue of the act.
I found this more hilarious than toxic to be honest! Guy has issues, I was happy to let him work them out haha
yupp, same. There were a bunch of messages telling me 'beware, liar ahead' etc. and I felt like an asshole at the moment so I put on the genocide gloves and went to work :(
His quest wasn't finished until 1.03 and he drops a dragon smithing stone which are limited in the game, so while morally it's a bit messed up, it's videogame characters that respawn after starting a new game or new character, and they don't do anything but repeat the same lines and do nothing. I didn't kill him but the pragmatic route isn't without reason.
Idk, he went on and on about having to find someone else to sit on the throne every time I went to check on him. At one point I got fed up and he received the business end of my blade. Guess I’ll be more patient with him next time.
The way he is written, and also the unexpected stumbles along the way, even the ways he address himself as The Great Kenneth Haight, wasn't that he is a particularly good ruler. But more that he is kind of like Harry Potter's Gilderoy Lockhart, just a buffoon with some luck running his mouth, and providing some comic relief along the way.
His quest seems bugged for me. I can’t progress with Nephali to get them both into the throne room. She just keeps sitting on the ground at round table hold after I gave her some item (not the potion).
You must kill Morgott first and make sure to retake his castle and visit him there and exhaust his dialogue. If you did that and gave the Stormhawk king item to Nephali, then you must fast travel to the Godrick site of grace. If you see Gostoc there kicking Godrick you must walk (no fast travel) to the grace site at the room just before the Godrick arena, rest there and see if Gostoc is still kicking Godrick, if He’s no longer there then you can go to the throne room and continue the quest, if he’s still there it mean that you’re missing something to continue the quest.
Kenneth's character arc of being disturbed by seeing a Tarnished (which is pretty normal for people in the Lands apparently) to deciding that a Tarnished is the best fit to rule Limgrave is just beautiful.
The very first thing he does when he meets you is to confront those biases! I think it's a pretty big deal that right away he decides, "actually, this Tarnished *is* good enough!"
Fun Fact about this whole questline at one point during development Gostoc was Godricks son and rightful heir. Zullie found some cut lines from him about it and it seems like the quest used to be more open ended.
If gostoc was the true heir and the only option in-game, this quest would have a 5% completion rate
So.. higher than Nepheli's.
I naturally reached the end of Nepheli quest during my first playthrough, given that it was pre patches and ended with me given her that spirit bird. Gostoc was just stomping on the head endlessly
I really doubt Gostoc was the true heir tho. The only one that ever implies he may be of the golden lineage, is himself. For someone wanting to be the king, specially someone as sleazy and shady as Gostoc, it'd make sense for them to lie about them being sons of royalty.
I still don’t really understand what a tarnished is and why everyone seems to dislike us. Is there an actual reason?
Tarnished are the people who were following Godfrey, First Elden Lord. When Marika expelled him and his warriors/followers from the Lands between, the tarnished were abandoned by grace and had to leave - and all the Golden Order Fundamentalists looked down on the tarnished because Marika herself issued this. Melina has dialogue in the (third?) church of Marika about this, the one in the north-eastern part of limgrave, north of the Mistwood. Talk to her there for the exact citation
Man I missed so much lore because I didn't even realize there was an extra grace option in the churches to talk with Melina.
Same, I only talked to her like twice in my first play through and I wondered where everyone was getting all this info from her lol
Not just churches. It **seems** pretty random **at first** where she wants to talk. Edit: Emphasis so yall can stop telling me it's not random.
I believe some of it is progress related, which would explain some of the randomness.
Mostly it's places directly related to Marika.
It seems like it's random but it's actually fairly predictable. She mostly appears when you enter a new zone or a made a progress on main story.
I feel like I check every time and have talked to her twice.
Nah she appears in most major story progresses. It's specific graces though not all of them so you might be missing those graces
She also takes an interest in Boc for some reason and I don't think any other NPC.
To be fair, I had no idea what to make of those lines until I watched VaatiVidya's lore videos
I figure that a tarnished could be anyone who somehow lost the guidance of grace, and Godfrey and his warriors were just the first people this happened to. I'm not sure if this is strictly canon or not, but it makes writing character backstories a lot more interesting
The only issue with that idea is that once you see the guidance of grace again, you're no longer tarnished, theoretically. Like, other characters ask us about the guidance of grace that we can see, but we're still Tarnished.
I think it’s HAVING grace, not being guided by it. The light in your eyes, whatever that entails. An actual fate, perhaps.
I think a Tarnished is anyone who at any point explicitly had their grace privilege removed. Even if you have it returned, the fact that it was removed in the first place makes you tarnished.
The Greater Will is the grace. The Tarnished were banished from the Lands Between, but after the Shattering the Greater Will chose to bring the Tarnished back. So at that point, the Tarnished are those who were brought back, not so much those who can see grace or not.
I actually disagree here! It is queen Marika who brings the tarnished back and guides you with her graces and she is acting against the greater will. It seems like anyhow the connection to the greater will is shattered as the fingers don’t actually have connection to it anymore (and therefore cannot help you and the finer reader tells you it may take thousands of years)
I'll admit I'm not fully sure about this, but I thought it was the Shattering itself in which Marika acted against the Greater Will, breaking the Elden Ring and severing the connection. Then later the Greater Will brought the Tarnished back to restore order.
I thought so too at first but here is evidence against it: The graces are of Marika and lead you towards her and tell you her story including her hate towards Radagon and the greater will (in her bedchamber). Melina also guides you who is likely the daughter of Marika (and possibly the twin or part of Ranni) and wants to burn down the erdtree which is against the greater will (according to the finger readers). Marika also enslaved hewg to make him forge weapons that could kill a god for the roundtable (the tarnished). It is to kill Radagon and or the Elden beast to break the dominance of the greater will. Radagon as the "hound of the golden Order“ is also the one who sealed the erdtree (his part of the Elden ring after all is seen at the closed door to the inner parts) And last but not least - the fingers and finger reader didn’t even know that the erdtree was closed which is impossible if they are really still in contact with the greater will.
Roderika is an example of a Tarnished in that sense - she came to the Lands Between despite never seeing any Grace.
I'm still unclear on some things. Like, Roderika came from another continent? Does that mean there are other gods that influence those places? And where did our character come from? Where we "dead" before the start of the game? Or did we just start existing?
We were banished to fight in other lands and we return at the start of the game.
I think that speaks to how judgmental and close-minded the hyper-religious can be. It doesn’t matter to them that you are back on the “good” path. You were a graceless heathen once, and that’s the image that sticks.
The thing is, every important tarnished CAN see grace, or at least saw it once while they revived for the first time. All the important relevant tarnished in the introduction were dead; Hoarax Loux, Fia, Goldmask, Gideon, THE LOATHSOME DUNGEATER, and the tarnished of no reknown (Us) all had a sprite of grace appear before them while they revived, so the tarnished at some point where all dead and then revived once Marika called us back. We don't know if after reviving, Fia, Goldmask, DE, or Gideon can see grace, but we do know that we and Hoarax can, as Morgott's body turns into guiding grace for Godfrey, pointing at us. On the other hand, Tarnished outside the intro, mention that they cannot see grace, like Rodgier, and they do not respawn once dead (either by the player's hand, or through the story) even before we >!take the rune of destined death and supposedly death becomes permanent.!<.Sure, this happened too in the DS series, if you kill someone, they do not respawn, but there existed the Hollow Mechanic that stops you reviving once you lose the will to live. Also, Melina has to revive us again after the opening, so she may be responsible for us reviving indefinitely.
On my God that makes so much sense now. I know they say it but I missed it until you said this. I found majority of explanations kept talking about this " the tarnished lost the grace of the big tree" which is almost a non sentence. I kept looking and I knew Godfrey was kicked to the curb but I've never put the two together until your comment.
So basically we were canonically a part of his army? Or am I misunderstanding?
Godfrey and his followers were the first Tarnished. Others have since been exiled for other reasons.
you're given the freedom to decide why your character may have become tarnished.
I missed some dialogue with her because i simply didn't sit at the grace. There were so many times when i had full health and didn't need to rest, they should have made it so Melina would pop up automatically once you activated the grace.
Or make a shadow of her sitting next to the grace when you're near it, so you know she has something to say. That would also help people like me who got to Margott before talking to her the first time.
There is also an indication that >!Marika did this because she regretted the golden order and wanted people to grow strong on their own. Then come back and kick ass. Which is what we are doing by playing the game. !<
The Tarnished weren't only those who followed Godfrey in battle. Someone like Fia is also Tarnished who possibly had nothing to do with the Battle against the Giants It's just people who have been stripped of grace for any number of reasons and their souls never returned to the Erdtree but stayed in a state of limbo in perpetuity until you were brought back to life to become Elden Lord
The tarnished are all (or mostly all?) dead too aren't they? Hence at the start of the game "saying arise ye tarnished" and showing dungeater being hanged, Gideon in his grave etc. I've wondered if the open graves you find scattered around quite often with rune items everywhere aren't supposed to represent the tarnished coming back.
Even Horoah Loux is chained up with a sword through him. Only Fia eems alive
Fia was also dead, that's why she says becoming a tarnished ruined her deathbed companion role, she was supposed to stay dead with her lord
I'd like to add that all tarnished are canonically undead, that's why during the opening cutscene all of them are depicted as either dead or waking up from their tomb
I don't think the Tarnished were all followers of Godfrey tho. GoldMask was just a phylosopher type guy, and Fia mentions how she was chilling in her village doing her work as a deathbed companion, when she lost sight of grace and was kicked out. I think people can randomly lose sight of the grace, and become tarnished.
Ahh. Thank you!
But I don’t understand how we’re tarnished when we are guided by grace
Melina: >Spoken echoes of Queen Marika linger here, as well. Shall I share them with you? Very well. In Marika's own words. >My Lord, and thy warriors. I divest each of thee of thy grace. With thine eyes dimmed, ye will be driven from the Lands Between. Ye will wage war in a land afar, where ye will live, and die. >Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey. >Well? Perhaps that might serve you in lieu of a maiden's guidance.
once tarnished, always tarnished. It just so happens that after your first death, Marika promised to return the lost grace - which is what happens. You die, you come back with your grace...supposedly stronger for the experience.
Do you have any idea \*WHY we fight Godfrey…? If we, as tarnished, followed him into banishment from the Lands Between. And why he would fight to protect Marika who dismissed him as soon as he wasn’t useful to her.
Godfrey doesn't go and protect the Golden Order, from what I caught he has little interest in that. He returns to become Elden Lord too (again). When we go back to the Erdtree after Farum Azula, he is there to enter the Erdtree as well. He then fights you, because there can only be one Elden Lord, and he then leaves it to us upon defeat, aknowledging that we, a tarnished warrior like him, have more strength than him. Compared to other bosses, he is much more appreciative of what we're doing and that we are a strong warrior. At least that's how i perceive it
I believe Tarnished are quite literally just God-forsaken. It's like if god lives in your local town hall and randomly decides 20% of the population is unfit of their blessing. So the god takes the blessing away. The other 80% of the population would inherently distrust or dislike you, especially if the god also exiled the 20%. Also I think lots of people dislike the pc just because we're walking around what amounts to their private war-gained holdings as an unknown outsider.
>randomly decides 20% of the population is unfit of their blessing I don't think it's random. Everyone seems Tarnished for specific reasons Fia, because she's a Deathbed Companion, Goldmask because he seems to have decided that the Golden Order wasn't perfect and was killed for it, Dung Eater cause fuck that dude, Hoarah Loux cause they were the first to be Tarnished after the Battle with the Giants and so on
Boggart, for being too good at boiling seafood
Gideon for chopping like 500 dudes ears off
To be serious, I wonder why Gideon was Tarnished. I wonder if it was because in his quest for knowledge, he found something he wasn't supposed to. He fights you towards the end but that *seems* like a realization he came to after becoming Tarnished. Considering he's a jolly good genocidal little fella, that might be why. Also I also wonder wtf is up with all those ears lol
>At the Hold Gideon Ofnir had an epiphany: "We are thinking on the basest of planes. What we need, are more ears."
Everyone was living happily in ignorance under the golden order when Marika decided everyone would be better if they experienced hardship and could find their“true faith.” So she removed the grace given by the golden order from Godfrey and his people, and expelled them from the land between. No longer having said grace, they became known as tarnished, and are viewed by those with grace as outcasts and heathens.
I’ve seen a pretty compelling argument that she may have been playing 4D chess by expelling Godfrey and his squad so they could one day return as hardened warriors and overthrow the Golden Order.
It's very possible that's what she was hoping for. Marika did not want the Greater Will to stay in charge, and more or less sabotaged the Golden Order.
Marika read too many books about stoicism.
I know this is a joke but I actually think the Tarnished may be more related to Nietzche’s idea of the Ubermensch. Basically we’re abandoned by God, expelled into a lonely world without faith, then made to form our own ideals. From this we come out stronger, eventually return, >!and kill god. By the end “God is dead” and we’ve replaced it with our own order based on our ideals.!<
Ah so it's berserk 2.0 (i love berserk btw).
She’s been listening to Tim Ferriss podcasts on the train to work obvs.
From what I understand, the tarnished were queen Marika's army when she needed to dominate the lands between. Once she was done with the army she took away their grace, told them to go conquer other lands and become better warriors, telling them that they would return to the lands between when the time is right, while promising to return their grace when that time came. They are called tarnished because she took away their grace, which, to pretty much everyone, looked as if she was deciding that they were unworthy. Elden Ring takes place in that "return when the time is right" time, which is why we have the guidance of grace
Souls lore is always so damn thoughtful and unique. I'm reading through this comment chain like, "who comes up with this shit? This is so interesting!"
George RR Martin did the world building and Hidetaka Miyazaki wrote the details of the story. It’s a really amazing feat.
Imagine if Jesus or God himself came down from Heaven and blessed everyone on Earth then after like a couple of years removed his blessing of like 20% of the population. That’s the tarnished. The blessed would obviously without any context distrust the tarnished. Very simplified but it gives you an idea.
So essentially we play as fallen angels cast down from the upstairs BoomBoom Room
tarnished are the decendents of Godfrey and his army after being exiled by Marika
Don't forget, talked a whole bunch of shit about Gordick without even being asked about it. Spills all the tea on a bunch of demigods as your possibly first exposition dump about a few of them. Is entertaining AF.
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Yeah, I thought he was an asshole at first. Turns out to be a chill dude.
Exactly. Biggest surprise was the fact that he turned out to be a just, honorable dude. From the first impression you expect such a douchey guy all the way but nah.
He’s Mace Tyrell
The Ace!
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Don’t know why I laugh-snorted at that, but I did. Thanks.
Gordick keheh
Hid amongst the women folk when he saw radahn, godrick femboy confirmed?
To be fair, Godrick is a coward piece of shit
Godrick the jumped up country bumpkin
kenneth haight is definitely a new legend npc now that you pay it out like that
Never knew him beyond he dropped golden seed. I need that flask charge.
Fwiw there are more golden seeds than required to completely max out your flasks in game. Some are just later than others.
Yes I know by the end of the game im running around with 5 extra seeds. But early game going from 2 to 3 sip you essentially increase your EHP by 30%
Yeah there are. I’ve been straight up asking if any of my friends needs seeds cause I’m ahead of them and have a bunch that I can’t use or sell.
You can't give golden seeds. They're key items
Wow I am stupid
He's also a cheeky bugger. When you exhaust his dialogue after he asks you to clear out the fort he asks you what you are waiting for, a kiss?
"Well, Kenny (can I call you Kenny?), perhaps I am!"
"Well, Kenny baby-" "Don't call me Kenny baby."
That's what I was waiting for yes, and he never delivered
And they say videogames appeal to the male fantasy, smh We want Kenneth ending for DLC
His only flaw 😔
When you first meet Kenneth he definitely comes across as an arrogant asshole but the more you learn about him and progress his quest the more he seems like a pretty decent guy. It's a nice example of a From npc subverting your expectations in a good way.
Same thing with blackguard, as soon as he isn't broke, he becomes so much more fun to hang out with..
Prawns! You must be hungry. Never met someone with a taste for Marika’s tits I couldn't trust.
i’d like one boiled Marika’s tits please
We got a good thing going here, and it's only getting better.
You're sitting in the Middle of a psycho-Swamp where 6-armed deathriders roam. Literally everything here wants to kill you. A random tarnished (bad fame already), armed to the teeth and armored to the toes walks in. Fuck yeah, I'd not want them around. Death is statistically *very* probable around that person.
Ah, yes, armed to the teeth and armored to the toes. Definitely not two daggers and no clothes cus I started as a wretch and made a direct run for the reduvia. To be fair, a nearly nude stranger with an eldritch blood knife might be worse.
I never got the chance to know because when i got his douchy response i killed him, and he gave me a seed, maybe i should had waited.
You forgot one other Chad point: he called Godrick a country bumpkin
And a big girls blouse
Ever since meeting him he's been up there as a favorite. When he meets you he literally overcomes his prejudice and wishes to unite all under proper ruling rather than abandon them or punish like the Golden Order did. He even becomes more and more realistic over the quest, I love it, realizing he's misjudged his ability and the world. Fucking love Kenneth.
You even left out mentioning his epic roast of Godrick. Kenny is my favorite NPC.
My opinion of him went through the roof when he went digging for a worthy ruler instead of trying to take control himself. He’s a rude little tart but I can appreciate his action.
He IS my my maiden
He gets Gostoc a job? *looks at bell bearing*... look the fucker was siphoning runes. I regret nothing.
You lose an Ancient Dragon Smithing Stone
I regret *SOMETHINGS*
In fairness, that only came out in patch 1.0.3 anyway.
Eh, those are pretty damn prevalent in the game though. Now, if it were a Somber...
For an ancient somber? Id say him siphoning runes from you in stormveil is pretty much worth it
It’s not somber. Not worth it
Not worth? I think you undervalue normal weapons. They get some really good ash of wars.
Not worth losing his head on a pike. One Patches is enough. (This opinion may be skewed by courses of action taken before the 1.03 patch.)
Siphoning runes isnt really a problem just dont die
Git gud scrub - Hidetaki Miyazaki
-Postal Tarnished
Murder hobos kill this guy almost instantly and never get to find out what a legend he is. You fools, can’t you see his bluff and bravado is a persona he’s had to craft in his struggle to hold the region together?! Dude’s trying to protect people and prevent total societal collapse in the face of perpetual cosmic horror.
But rich man rude!!! /s
His quest bugged out for me so he just died after I cleared his fort for him. Guess a rune bear got him on the way to see my hard work.....
The hero we needed; not the one we deserved.
How do you get the dragon stones?
So after Morgott and you get Nepheli the Storm King ash, head back to Godrick. If Gostoc is still stomping, run to the Grace BEFORE and rest. Then head to the throne. Kenneth, Nepheli and Gostoc should all be there if their quests were done. Nepheli will hand you one for a reward and Gostoc will now sell one.
On my most recent playthrough even resting at that grace wasn't working, I had to go to each of the three and listen to their 'i don't really have anything else to say so I'm just going to repeat this one line' dialogue again, then return and rest at the grace. What a finicky quest.
Just did research on this a few days ago, apparently the last phase of his questline trigger only after you go up the lift to Mountain of the Giants. Haven't reached there in my second play through yet tho so no proof.
You actually don't need Kenny for the stones. I accidently killed him when mobs attacked us talking to him after the Fort quest was completed. I did Nepheli's quest fully before this and thought I fucked it but her and Gostoc went to Stormveil without him being alive.
So intuitive!
Jesus fucking christ, just two weeks ago people told me if I killed gostoc he'd give my stolen runes back and I should just go ahead and do it since he doesnt have a further questline. I am going to commit vehicular manslaughter in a 2001 honda civic
Don’t believe he used to have one, but they patched it in later.
Ah damn That sucks tho, hes literally the only npc I killed since people assured me that hes not only useless, but Id also get all my runes back/not lose any more from deaths afterwards
At least he doesn't break the questline, so you can still get Nepheli's stone if you've killed him.
Yeah it was patched in but like 2 months ago, people should not still be spreading misinformation like that.
Other than the merchants there are only two people you should kill if you want everything, and that's not until the very end of their quest lines . The first one is Gowry after Millicent’s quest and the second one is Tannith after you give her the dancer's castanets.
Shabriri in yuras body for that sweet hat
If I remember correctly, you get it without killing him as well, as long as you take on the flame of frenzy
Im confident there will be more to tanniths castanets, its just not patched in, or its cut content forever idk
I wouldn't kill Tannith just yet...
As of right now the quest has no resolution so I say kill her for her gear. At some point they might add in an ending but if you’re going to go into ng+ and don’t have her set there’s no reason to leave her alive
Gowry can also be safely killed if you helped Milicent and got the Rotten Winged Sword Talisman. At that point he'll drop the upgraded canvas talisman. Also, according to Fextra if you want two Hoslow Petal whips you need to kill Diallos before he reaches Volcano Manor, so in Liurnia. I haven't tried it, but apparently he won't drop his whip if Jugo is killed and you complete his quest. Take that with a grain of salt though, because again, I haven't tested it personally.
You can now get a 2nd petal whip with Diallos' questline fixed. After killing Juno, Diallos leaves Volcano Manor and goes to Jarburg to live the good jar-life. After exhausting Jar-Bairn's and Diallos' new dialogue, rest and wait several times (or just so something else and come back later), and a certain series of events will unfold that will allow you to get Diallos' mask and whip. As well as tears shed from witnessing what unfolds.
You can keep checking your back as you progress through the back entry and he'll give you items for not killing him.
I did all the quests but Gostoc is not there. He was before, now that Kenneth and Nepheli are there I can not find Gostoc anymore.
Did you check behind the throne, along the back wall to the left?
coolest thing about this guy: he finds someone with a legitimate claim and everything. he just completely by accident manages to lord up >!the biological daughter of godfrey, the first elden lord!<
I missed this. Finding so much stuff I missed
I just read the walkthrough of his quest line. I would never have completed this quest.. You need to meet up with several NPCs in different areas of the game that may or may not line up with your own progression and also rest at a specific site of grace. I eventually met this >!Nepheli Loux!< but I cannot give her any items. Meh.
I just think he is neat. He speaks his mind about Godrick and calls him “a jumped up country bumpkin” and I love it.
The GREAAAAATTT Kenneth Haight..
He had me at "big girl's blouse."
I love Kenneth. Because when you first meet him, you think he's some arrogant and incomprtent royal. But when you follow his quest through, you see that this first impression is quite wrong. He's an honorable and upstanding man. Never judge a book by its cover.
I have played for over 100 hours, never seen this guy
Likewise lol
As soon as I heard him go third person I knew I was in the presence of a legend.
Wholeheartedly agree. At first i thought he was some posh dickhead because of how he first reacted to us Tarnished. But then I did his questline, that's also when I learned I could help Nepheli without turning her into a damn puppet. 10/10 good bloke
There are some things they could do to make the Limgrave heir questline seem a little less strange or rushed, that would fit within the confines of what a patch could accomplish. I think it would make a lot of sense to turn all the demihumans inside his keep non-hostile when he is there, since he talks about being peaceful with them.
I bet that’ll be changed at some point. Jarburg jars arent hostile now but they would attack you on release if you got too close
Dude is swimming in maidens, just look at him.
My wife saw me talk to Kenneth and said "an attractive male character in a Souls game? What the hell?"
Gostoc is actually useful for something? After my first playthrough I kept killing him because 1. He locked you in a cell with a banished Knight 2. He was stealing runes from your death in Stormveil, but I guess that was a glitch 3. Dude has so much built up animosity he was stomping on Godrick's head for DAYS never relenting, and that's toxic asf especially coupled with his confrontational dialogue of the act. I'll just have to kill him after getting the stone then, if it's not a safe zone.
2 isn't a glitch, he's just a thieving asshole (who sells you a +25 smithing stone if you let him live)
2 was a glitch in the sense that he is supposed to stop stealing from you after Godrick's death but he didn't until they fixed that with a patch.
Though I am adamant that him stealing runes from you if you died in the Chapel of Anticipation was a glitch.
There was a glitch where he would keep stealing your runes after you finished the area but that's been patched.
Alive it is then
Nope, dead it is. Also, by the time you get to +24 you already have like 10 ancient smithing stones
You underestimate how many weapons I want fully upgraded by the end of a run, also I don’t like killing when I don’t have to
>Dude has so much built up animosity he was stomping on Godrick's head for DAYS never relenting, and that's toxic asf especially coupled with his confrontational dialogue of the act. I found this more hilarious than toxic to be honest! Guy has issues, I was happy to let him work them out haha
Be glad it’s only a banished knight which he locks you in with, in the Network Test it used to be a grafted scion
Shame I murdered him before his quest was fixed
yupp, same. There were a bunch of messages telling me 'beware, liar ahead' etc. and I felt like an asshole at the moment so I put on the genocide gloves and went to work :(
Excuse me wtf?
His quest wasn't finished until 1.03 and he drops a dragon smithing stone which are limited in the game, so while morally it's a bit messed up, it's videogame characters that respawn after starting a new game or new character, and they don't do anything but repeat the same lines and do nothing. I didn't kill him but the pragmatic route isn't without reason.
He dropped a Golden Seed not a Smithing Stone.
Kenneth starts as a bit of an ass, but he's definitely a chad if you stick with him.
I killed this guy
Idk, he went on and on about having to find someone else to sit on the throne every time I went to check on him. At one point I got fed up and he received the business end of my blade. Guess I’ll be more patient with him next time.
The way he is written, and also the unexpected stumbles along the way, even the ways he address himself as The Great Kenneth Haight, wasn't that he is a particularly good ruler. But more that he is kind of like Harry Potter's Gilderoy Lockhart, just a buffoon with some luck running his mouth, and providing some comic relief along the way.
I love that man!
He remind anybody else of Lorenz Hellman Gloucester? Especially with how he holds his hand.
Finally someone who appreciates The great Kenneth Haight as much as i do.
Never seen this guy before. Is he Kenneth the great? I keep hearing his voice in the game but never found him LOL
He is on top the arch
I killed Gostoc for stealing my runes.
Zullie recently made a video indicating that we may have once been able to choose him as the ruler of Limgrave.
Where’s this guy 😅 feel like I haven’t discovered half of this game it’s so vast
His quest seems bugged for me. I can’t progress with Nephali to get them both into the throne room. She just keeps sitting on the ground at round table hold after I gave her some item (not the potion).
You must kill Morgott first and make sure to retake his castle and visit him there and exhaust his dialogue. If you did that and gave the Stormhawk king item to Nephali, then you must fast travel to the Godrick site of grace. If you see Gostoc there kicking Godrick you must walk (no fast travel) to the grace site at the room just before the Godrick arena, rest there and see if Gostoc is still kicking Godrick, if He’s no longer there then you can go to the throne room and continue the quest, if he’s still there it mean that you’re missing something to continue the quest.
I don't even know who this guy is. I missed so much in my first playthrough. Even patches...
I didn't think there was anything after you helped him get his fort back. I suppose I'll need to head back there
May have of may not have killed him for being an arrogant prick
I killed this guy immediately bc he rubbed me the wrong way
Still waiting for my knighthood. Guy is a fraud.
Fuck Boi Supreme!!!