>What I think is wrong with this is that 1) I don't think it means at all that the author only expects positive reviews when mentioning that rule,
I agree. "Don't like, don't read" was originally a disclaimer used for fics depicting same sex relationships. So it was very much a: don't complain if you don't like the content.
And that's how I still take it. It's content based. If you don't like a particular ship or a trope or a style of fic (modern coffee shop au) and that's all listed in the summary or tags? Don't like, don't read.
One of my least favorite genres that I refused to read is genres where they take a cast from a fantasy or sci-fi or other environment and they put them in a high school environment. Oh so all the people from that show about ninjas instead of being ninjas and performing missions and Adventures they're going to be stuck in class and participating in high school relationship drama. Like why would I want to read that? I don't want to read that; therefore I don't read them.
Yep. Sometime I'm in the mood for an AU (mostly modern/Earth) for fics, but most of the time I want fic set in the universe it comes from. So my Exclude tags on AO3 generally exclude every AU I can think of to tag.
Can definitely get into some AUs occasionally but something just rubs me wrong about taking a cast with fantastic powers or abilities or whatnot and reducing them to high school students. Like I don't think twice about reading my hero Academia which takes place in high school but if someone were to write a my hero Academia story where courts didn't exist and they were all just normal high school students I just wouldn't see the point. I'm totally down though if you want to make an au where a character finds himself in a different time or place but there's still essentially the same person or or an au where there's something fundamentally different about the universe or history or even a plot point went differently than it did in Canon.
I am not a fan of school AUs specifically because I'm in my 40s and just don't want to relate to that environment anymore, but I love modern/no powers AUs. That's where an author shows that they have their characterization dialed in tight.
I remember those being all the rage in the mid-late '00's. Drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a modern AU of something, but if someone's going to be doing a modern AU of a fantasy thing, I'd like to see their take on how modern stuff works within the rules of the fantasy world. Like...does magic fry electronics (seen it in more than Harry Potter; in Mercedes Lackey's Bedlam's Bard universe, to have electronics work in what she calls Underhill, you need a Faraday Cage or something along those lines for them to be in) or have they found a way for magic to work with electronics?
For non-fantasy AUs that are modern day AUs of historical novels, I'd like to see how things change for the characters while still keeping the setting the same. Take Phantom of the Opera, for example. How would Erik/the Phantom's life be a bit different if he'd grown up in a more modern era? The de Chaney family would still have their titles, but how would that be different now in a France without much of a monarchy left? Things like that.
Those are… entirely separate. Don’t like don’t read means if you dislike something don’t get mad at the author for making something you personally dislike and just move on. It has nothing to do with reviews.
Yeah, that's misrepresenting what dl;dr is all about: if I don't like mushrooms and order a mushroom dish, my complaint is nonsensical and me criticizing the dish for containing mushrooms is as well. I could have just ordered a Schnitzel instead.
This has me low key wondering...
In the US, it's common to get another entree or have your dish taken off the bill if you didn't like it, regardless of reason, so long as you didn't finish it. Or sometimes if you did but that's a whole different thing.
There have been a few times when I ordered a dish I wanted to try but wasn't sure if I would like, ended up not eating much but didn't feel it was the fault of the kitchen so I never said anything. Only to have the waitress notice and either comp the dish or insist on bringing me something else without extra charge.
It's very kind although I always feel awkward since *I* was the one who decided to proceed with the selection despite *knowing* I might not like it.
I almost wonder if it's people who have this kind of... Customer service mentality and are used to being catered to.
That's absolutely *wild* to me. I've paid for dishes with insects in them; the servers just shrugged when I told them about it. We never returned to that place, though. :D
That is one of the few times I'll actually go "umm, excuse me, hi, sorry I'm not comfortable consuming this and I don't want it on my bill, sorry be a pain, I'll actually just take me check now and leave, don't worry I'm still tipping".
I just can't with bugs. I'll trip over myself apologizing but I gotta nope out at that point. Only exception was a drink that I watched be placed in front of me bug free, and shortly after a fly landed and drowned in it 😂
I flagged the waitress down and politely asked her to take it away since I wasn't going to consume it but didn't ask for it to be removed from my bill. They did it anyway cause that's just the culture here, for good and ill. I appreciate the kindness, don't get me wrong, but there are times when I think it's taken a bit far.
I’m from Canada and it’s pretty much the same way. As long as they see you only took a few bites they will take it off. I don’t expect it but that’s always been my experience. Bugs though I would be asking for it to be taken off the bill.
Do ya'll have tipping or do you actually pay your waitstaff a living wage up there? I always feel so bad cause waitstaff get penalized for random stuff that is out of their control and they're only make like... 3 or 4 bucks an hour cause tipping is expected to make up the rest.
As someone who has intentionally ordered and paid for food that includes roasted insects and the like, I'd still get really upset if the live or dead insect wasn't something as harmless as an aphid. Like a salad with a hitch-hiking baby snail would make me lose my appetite because even just raw snail trails can make you really sick (via parasites/germs).
Oh yeah that's entitled and gross as feck when people expect it. I chose it. I paid for it. Unless there's something actively WRONG with it, I would expect to pay for it.
Now if they volunteer, that's them being nice, but a customer expecting it? What happened to personal responsibility?
There are entire generations who have grown up being fed the BS that they’re speshul and that they ‘deserve’ and ‘should have’ anything their pwessus widdle hearts desire. There absolutely is a ‘Feed Meee!’ mindset to life these days. Cater because you just ‘should’, and they will deign to peruse it but never acknowledge that because..they don’t need to. People keep providing the goods even if no one says a word of thanks. Not just re fanfiction but across a couple of social media sites I’ve just about had it and am not going to artificially prop things up in the face of utter disinterest for much longer. Shall I let it take 2 months to die, or start killing it now?
As someone who is not a fan of unsolicited concrit (or what people think passes for such), this is absolutely NOT what DLDR means.
DLDR is telling people that if they know full well a story hast tropes/plots/characters they don't enjoy, it's their responsibility to find something else to read. Telling someone that they may not have executed said theme or trope well is one thing, complaining that they the reader wanted XYZ and not ABC that was tagged or and told about in the authors note at the top of the fic is another thing entirely.
I have accidentally "ordered a mushroom dish" in the past and I probably will occasionally again in the future, and the appropriate response to that is to realize it was your bad because you didn't read the tags thoroughly enough, and just go read something else instead of pestering the writer about your own incompetent actions. It's too weirdly entitled to harass authors about stuff they clearly warned against.
Exactly! And when an author doesn't appreciate that kind of "critique", they are often belittled for it. I will never understand that. If a work contains themes I know I don't like, I either don't even start consuming, or drop the thing if it's sprung upon me without warning - whether it's fanfiction, books, TV series, comics etc. If I don't like something, I can't offer any valuable advice to improve on it anyway; especially if it changes a central part of the work (much like the mushroom dish no longer being a mushroom dish if you replace them with zucchini).
Might be a lack of understanding of what dl;Dr is, or what criticism entails
As in, maybe they're using criticism to mean *constructive* criticism and other complains (you suck, this ship sucks etc) are considered plain harassment
That is possible! I also don't know when it was written, since the platform is 20+ years old. Part of me considered messaging the admins for clarification / ask for them to change it, but from what I read they can be quite mean and I'm a grown up baby. Plus, I might just move to AO3 completely anyway.
Definitely not the same thing. It reminds me of a now-defunct site I used to read some fic on years ago (never posted any fic of my own). You couldn't say anything even *remotely* negative about the fics. Like, I read one that looked intriguing for my ship, sort of a historical/medieval-type AU, and partway through the fic it went into fantasyland with gnomes and everything, and I remember commenting politely that I found the addition of the gnomes a bit odd (along with saying some of the things I liked about the ship and all). The gnomes weren't expected! There were no tags saying "gnomes inside, don't read if you don't like this", lol. The mods got all upset because I wasn't 100% positive about EVERYTHING. I remember being so baffled at this, because mine wasn't a super critical or mean comment at all, and I'd pointed out what I *had* enjoyed, but no, that wasn't acceptable. I quit leaving ANY comments after that.
But "don't like, don't read" isn't the same thing at all - that means "this is in this fic, if you know you're not going to enjoy it, don't read it". Not, "you're not allowed to say anything in the slightest bit negative EVER".
> The gnomes weren't expected!
This made me laugh harder than it should have. 😭
Sounds like that was another extreme, where absolutely no criticism is allowed, which is also kinda weird. Like I said in another reply, I'm torn between whether unsolicited criticism is okay or not, because as long as it's constructive I feel like it shouldn't be *that* frowned upon.
It all depends, I think. And also, I learned that with criticism in general it is always the best practice to start off with something positive!
Haha, I can see how that sentence would do that. XD But it really was quite bizarre. The fandom was a modern-day crime show! A historical AU is one thing. But *gnomes*? I kind of wish the site were still up so I could go back and see if my memory of how weird most of the AUs were is accurate, lol.
I think it's closer to your second point. To me don't like don't read is don't read it if the tags aren't something that you like. If you do read it, don't leave a review complaining that the (for example) omegaverse story is an omegaverse story. No one owes you anything, and the back button is your friend.
I agree with your point. I say "there's a rape scene in this story, don't like, don't read" not because I want ass pats or nothing. I welcome and encourage feedback that helps me improve. But it's not constructive to come to the story and say "you deserve to die for writing this type of thing". All I care about is how I can write that exact thing, but better lol
I tag for a lot of the big trauma stuff in my fic for the same reason as well as do CW/TW on the specific needed chapters. I also welcome and encourage feedback, including folks asking me to tag something specific if I need to.
That entire quote is horsedung. DLDR does not mean the author isn't inviting criticism, and also publishing something you made online absolutely does not automatically mean you should be cool with criticism *either*. I do like that they went ahead to be wrong on all counts, at least. Committing to the misinformation there.
The saying they're looking for is: if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
They are 100% wrong about giving dl;dr that definition. It doesn't make sense!
I definitely get the impression that a lot of writers don't want any negative feedback at all. I don't think it's just that platform that defines dl;dr that way; there seems to be a lot of "positive vibes only" or more of a "don't like, don't *comment*" attitudes (as in, if you read it and ended up not liking it, don't say anything).
That's not really what it means, no, but it got lumped in there over time because fanfiction as a thing has never been about critique. It's about mutual joy, so if you don't like it, shrug and move on. It's a dick move to make it the author's problem. The only compensation they get is kudos and comments. Breaking that social convention just makes you a dick.
I would not trust any platform that insisted that *fanfiction authors* must always be open to public concrit of their work. That is bullshit and implies a toxic mentality on the part of the owners which has almost certainly been reflected in the userbase of the site. I would expect the userbase of such a site to attach morality to their hobby in an unhealthy way, and would not want to have that energy anywhere near my life. Avoid like the plague.
For many people, the fanfiction they write is a *gift they are giving* to the community at large.
As a reader, your negative opinion is often not relevant to the writer in any way. They didn't write it for you. Often, people who leave negative comments are really saying, "Why don't you write what I want you to write, instead of what you want to write?" And even if not, even if you as a reader are thinking, "No, my criticism is objective, it has nothing to do with taste!" Perhaps it has to do with grammar, spelling, a canon detail that you think the writer got wrong, whatever -- it does not matter. It is fan fiction. If the author did not explicitly state in their notes that they want critical feedback, I strongly believe that you should err on the side of NOT giving it. (And if you as a writer *are* open to critical feedback, it's very easy for you to make it clear to your readers that this is the case. Simply say it.)
If you are open to receiving concrit on your fan work from the general public, though, I would caution you thus: You would be better served by a private reading group of people who you trust. Fandom is rife with people who will lie to your face and disguise bullying as "criticism" -- many parts of fandom are comprised of people addicted to their thing, who will dehumanize fan artists and do/say almost anything to get their next fix. They feel entitled to your time and energy and will moralize your hobby and wield the creatives' desire for feedback of any kind against them -- these parasocial relationships are unhealthy for both the artists and their audiences. Protect yourself and learn to set and enforce boundaries with your followers/readers/audiences.
Just my take, a mix of lessons learned and therapy received as an older person in fandom (gonna be 40 next year.)
>You would be better served by a private reading group of people who you trust.
So much this. Workshopping a fic with other writers is going to get you, by and large, better concrit that you can actually use than hearing from public readers.
> Fandom is rife with people who will lie to your face and disguise bullying as "criticism" -- many parts of fandom are comprised of people addicted to their thing, who will dehumanize fan artists and do/say almost anything to get their next fix.
Yes. And frankly, the people I see in fandom spaces who have a massive hard-on for leaving concrit (whether the author wants it for not) are exactly these type of jerks that you don't want to deal with.
As a fellow fandom old (*geriatric fistbump*) yes this. Fandom gaslights like nobody's business and yes, I've seen an embarrassing number of people trying to dress up tantrums and bullying as concrit. Never ever saw it end well.
I seen no benefit in giving any unsolicited critical feedback, and certainly none of the "I don't like this" variety. Dude, read the signs.
When requested or offered very very gently, critical feedback can be extremely helpful, and I have received some excellent thoughts from folks over the years which has improved my writing. But it's like telling someone you don't like the muffins they baked and brought into the office to share. Whether you think they're bland or you don't like the blueberry muffins because you hate blueberries, its pretty universally a dick move to share that with your amateur cook co-worker who was just trying to do something nice. You could probably get away with correcting a technical deficiency (I think you added salt instead of sugar; you misspelled this character's name), but more than that will generally make you known as "that guy." Some people don't mind being "that guy," but I certainly don't want that reputation.
There’s a difference between constructive criticism and just being mean.
I had a fic that got rightful criticism and I listened and talked and took it down. I didn’t take it down when others in the fandom were hating on it and me just because they didn’t like me. No matter how much I was careful to tag for people the block me and to put under a read more— they still were complaining about it. Why read if you don’t want to hear from me?
That said… the critical look at it was needed and I had a conversation and understood what needed to be done by removing it. They were just in their comments and I wasn’t going to throw “well then just don’t read it” in their faces.
It’s also why I ratted out the bullies who decided to take credit for me removing the fic when it certainly wasn’t because they were being nasty little dicks to the ones who took time to talk to me and to engage me in a meaningful conversation about it.
It's a fallacious connection for sure. I mean, I fully agree with "don't like, don't read", but I'll happily accept people's criticism on my fics.
If my story is tagged 'fluff' and someone comments "I fucking hate fluff", that's a waste of both their time and mine. If, on the other hand, they comment, "I fucking hate how *you* wrote this fluff", I'm entirely fine with that opinion (though I'd hope they would elaborate a bit more).
It's from Fanfiktion.de right? I personally don't mind their interpretation because it should be obvious that you shouldn't read a FF with trope/pairing/genre if you hate trope/pairing/genre.
But don't like don't read is often used as a standard defense for any constructive criticism and concrit is the standard on FF.de (that's probably why they worded it like that). Like it isn't considered rude to left it unasked there (at least by the people who created/ run this Plattform). The German attitude towards unsolicited concrit is different from the English speaking platforms. And to be honest, I don't find it a bad thing.
Yes! I haven’t personally seen the rule (is it even a rule) being used to avoid constructive criticism (which I think isn’t a bad thing), but if that’s a thing that happens a lot, then it would make sense why they worded it the way they did.
But it somehow seems so strict for no reason, I don’t know. Germans are scary. (I am German)
> Germans are scary.
I like to joke around with my friends and tell them that their belief that German is a harsh, scary sounding language is nonsense and that it's actually really pleasant to the ear.
And then I start quoting lines from Maus.
I generally leave positive reviews or I don't leave reviews at all. If I leave criticisms I try to make them as constructive as possible having to do with a specific story point that feels off or something factual that's incorrect or otherwise something that would help them improve their writing or storytelling. I Won't Say Never because I surely don't remember what all I posted when I was a teenager but I will say currently I do not leave negative posts about the story itself. If I don't like a story because I don't like how the authors portraying the characters or I don't like the plot or I don't like the main idea of the story I just stop reading it.
> criticism is one thing, but if someone criticizes a story solely because it involves something they don't like, then why did they read it in the first place? To me, that feels like a person reads a "Caution! Slippery Floor!" sign, decides to walk on the floor anyway, and then complains that it's slippery.
Okay but what if the author decides not to put that slippery floor sign and all of a sudden I get bombarded with a 14 year old's wet dream that has no place in a T-Rated work?
Should "dead dove, don't eat" be treated as synonymous with "don't like, don't read" or is it only meant to be used to indicate to the reader "there is some REALLY fucked up stuff in this story so any resulting mental trauma is on you"? As someone who used to read a TON of fanfiction 20 years ago before taking an extended break (15+ years) and only recently started reading it again, it seemed that "don't like, don't read" was used by writers to indicate they did not want any criticism at all. Personally, I think that when criticism is given, anything tagged should be off limits and should always be delivered with kindness.
I take Dead Dove as "you get what's on the tin." And that the story is not a PSA/After School Special telling you "oh, the activities contained within are sooo wrong."
I always took it to be similar to Dead Dove, but more general use. Like, you can't stand X ship or trope or whatever? Then why did you read it? Just so you could complain that you don't like coffeeshop AUs??? If it's in the tags or the summary then you can't complain about its existence in the story, you knew what you were getting into.. Now you are free to criticize the execution if you want, but that's a different can of worms to lie in.
Sure. But the point and origin of the saying is: if you read something that has a summary/tags of things you don't normally like, don't flame the author because you took a chance.
I'll be honest even if I get downvoted to hell: I hate seeing the "don't like don't read" thing.
First of all, tags are there for a reason. It's the author's responsibility to tag properly, and it's the reader's to read those tags and decide if what they see there matches what they want to read or not. Ditto for summaries.
However, what REALLY annoys me is that people think "don't like don't read" makes them immune to constructive criticism, or criticism in general. Or they think that a negative review is flaming or a personal attack.
EDIT: WOW this got long. Cutting it down because it got off-subject.
When AO3 became popular, constructive criticism was just not the norm anymore. I could leave even harsh criticism on FFN with no issue but a discussion. But AO3? I was reading a fic with an interesting premise that shifted its premise twice without warning to the point that the original premise was barely there, and I ended up writing a - rather scathing - review about their inability to balance a wide cast an advice on how to do it. Yes, my review was really lengthy and poorly worded. I immediately got responses from other people about how I'm toxic and I need to get a life, and after I calmed down a bit I explained that I'm sorry for my manners but NOT for my opinions and explained my advice some more.
The author got back to me a few days later saying that they were means "writing this fic for their mental health" and that this review was "not what they needed right now" and that they barely skimmed it. Sir. Ma'am. You *did not say* that you didn't want criticism. I definitely did not have any way to know about your mental health struggles.
"Review" means "a formal assessment of something with the intention of instituting change if necessary." Not "praise and gushing".
Ever since AO3 became *really big,* the fandom i now full of toxic positivity. It's one thing to say good stuff about a fic you like but expecting nothing *but* good stuff about the stuff you're writing? Doesn't improving feel good? I keep seeing tumblr posts about "not providing constructive criticism unless it's asked for", but then what's the point? Validation? That's not going to carry you far.
TD;LR "Don't like don't read" means "look for content that suits you" not "author is immune to criticism".
>First of all, tags are there for a reason. It's the author's responsibility to tag properly, and it's the reader's to read those tags and decide if what they see there matches what they want to read or not. Ditto for summaries.
Yes. Which is originally where/how the DL;DR spawned. People would be quite clear about what content was involved in the fic and *still* get flamed by some random reader who didn't like the content, read it anyway and got pissy.
>However, what REALLY annoys me is that people think "don't like don't read" makes them immune to constructive criticism, or criticism in general. Or they think that a negative review is flaming or a personal attack.
I agree. Nothing on the Internet is going to keep you safe from people who must opine. And a negative review isn't necessarily an attack. Though, on the Internet, people do tend to feel free to let loose with as much ire as they want because they're anonymous.
> "Review" means "a formal assessment of something with the intention of instituting change if necessary." Not "praise and gushing".
And "Reviews" were never a thing on AO3, only on FFN. Different culture.
>"not providing constructive criticism unless it's asked for", but then what's the point?
If someone wants to improve and thinks criticism from readers will help, they'll ask for constructive criticism. If they don't think criticism from readers will help or they're simply not interested in "improving," then they won't ask.
I honestly don't know how or why it's such a big deal for people to read something, think "well, that wasn't for me for several reasons" and then mosey on if the author doesn't want concrit. You are always free to opine about it elsewhere.
Agree with all of this. I think that this bit:
>And "Reviews" were never a thing on AO3, only on FFN. Different culture.
is particularly important for those who skew closer to FFN culture to remember. AO3 has NEVER called them “reviews,” they have ALWAYS been “comments” very specifically, since AO3 grew out of LiveJournal culture in the 2000s, which was often at direct odds with FFN culture at that time.
It’s totally fine for both giving & receiving concrit on published works to be an integral part of your fandom experience, and I also think it’s totally fine to have no interest in unsolicited concrit on your work. I don’t think one of those is inherently superior, they’re just different. But I DO think it’s important to take into consideration the culture of the place you’re reading or posting; if I posted my fic on FFN, I wouldn’t be upset or bothered by receiving a critical comment, even if it was unsolicited and, imo, unhelpful. But conversely, if you’re reading on AO3, it’s important to remember that the culture there is that, unless the author has *explicitly stated in the notes that they welcome critique*, it’s considered rude to offer concrit. At most, if you feel you genuinely have something helpful to say, you could ASK the author if they’re interested in concrit (as part of a larger comment about what you liked about their work), but you need to respect their answer. (And no response is a “no.”)
I think this cultural mismatch is genuinely a big reason for a lot people who strongly prefer one site over the other to have problems when crossing into the other space.
I was acting quite immaturely back then... It was a couple of years back so I'd like to think I would just curse out someone now. But at the time I straight up didn't know about clashing fandom culture.
Okay, but I’m not sure you seem to understand the clashing fandom culture thing NOW. You say in your original comment that,
>The author got back to me a few days later saying that they were means "writing this fic for their mental health" and that this review was "not what they needed right now" and that they barely skimmed it. Sir. Ma'am. You did not say that you didn't want criticism. I definitely did not have any way to know about your mental health struggles.
and this, which both ArtisinalMoonlight and I already addressed:
>"Review" means "a formal assessment of something with the intention of instituting change if necessary." Not "praise and gushing".
and then this:
>It's one thing to say good stuff about a fic you like but expecting nothing but good stuff about the stuff you're writing? Doesn't improving feel good? I keep seeing tumblr posts about "not providing constructive criticism unless it's asked for", but then what's the point? Validation? That's not going to carry you far.
All of those things say to me, “I think this entire culture and way of doing fandom is inferior and bad, and MY way is the only CORRECT way of Doing Fandom and Interacting With Fanfiction.” And I think that’s a pretty dismissive, shitty attitude to have, dude!
If you genuinely, in good faith, want to have a discussion about the various merits and drawbacks of both cultures—I think there are both aspects to both options!—and try and see the other perspective, I’m happy to have a discussion with you about it, but I’ll only take the time to bother typing out all my thoughts about this if you’re actually interested.
I didn't mean to sound dismissive in this thread (or in general), and nowadays I generally... I wouldn't say I avoid commenting or reviewing on AO3, I just drop the fics I don't really like.
It's just that the whole thing of "if you have nothing good to say don't say it" and "only write for yourself not for others" has been a hot topic button for me for several years because I lost all engagement in what was once my previous WIP out of the blue. I was getting very angry at people for even getting engagement in the first place. I know that's a super toxic attitude to have and I'm working on it but I was generally angry because I thought they were taking for granted their insane priviledge of actually getting attention to the point of being picky about what kind of attention they get. I personally was thirsty for validation and that almost killed my passion for writing.
Like I said, that mindset of mine was insanely toxic. Still is, but I'm trying to work through it. But I still can't help but rant whenever the topic comes up - I edited my initial comment (on this thread) to cut it down in length because I know I sounded kind of unhinged and not in the fun way.
Overall, if you want to share your thoughts - or just call me out in general really - then feel free to do so. I'll do my best to respond.
I don't know how to quote exact sentences so I hope this comes off clear:
I haven't abandoned FFN entirely (I crosspost everything there) but AO3 is objectively the more functional website. This is the reason why many FFN authors moved their content there. So I may have been out of line in assuming a cultural carryover but I don't think that assumption was entirely baseless.
Personally my main platform is SB nowadays which strongly classes with AO3, but AO3 is now considered not just the norm but how fandom culture should be everywhere.
I do know the difference between "not for me" and "bad writing". There are fics I genuinely hate but are excellently written. If that's the case I just drop those fics and don't review.
> So I may have been out of line in assuming a cultural carryover
You were. AO3 has existed as a more comment/discussion culture since its inception as opposed to having readers play Siskel & Ebert.
>I do know the difference between "not for me" and "bad writing".
Sure, but the whole point is: someone can write badly - objectively - and still not give a fig for doing any better. Your review time is better spent elsewhere, on someone who's actually interested.
I find it amusing that you freely acknowledge the review you wrote in your example was mean and then go on to condemn 'toxic positivity'. People just didn't appreciate the fact that you were being an asshole under the guise of 'constructive criticism' lol.
I mean, I'm definitely not without fault here, I'm under no illusions for that bit. And tbh the whole thing is something of a hot button topic for me (and I was taking out some frustrations about my own work). I really had no excuse for the language I used but being told "I have no life" did hurt me. I genuinely believed - and still do - that that was the point where the fic turned from "not what I signed up for but still good" to "actually bad writing".
EDIT to add: Personally I have no issue with receiving reviews like that. It has been... I think a couple of years since then? And I'm generally in a better mindset about my own work, but I'm still glad for any criticism I receive.
I don't think this is a bad take, or something that needs to be downvoted.
>First of all, tags are there for a reason. It's the author's responsibility to tag properly, and it's the reader's to read those tags and decide if what they see there matches what they want to read or not. Ditto for summaries.
Yes, absolutely. Personally, I never even wrote the "don't like, don't read" rule anywhere on my fics; I think it's more of a common-sense-thing. That's why I found it so weird when I read in that platform's glossary how it's not appreciated, because why not?
But as another user pointed out, people do use it to avoid criticism as a whole, which I think should not be the point of dl;dr. It makes sense why the admins of the platform would say this stance isn't appreciated, even if I don't fully agree with that stance, but I get it.
>Then it shifted its premise twice without warning to the point that the original premise was barely there, and I ended up writing a - rather scathing - review about balancing out the personality traits, focus, and story events between the characters. I gave some advice on how to handle a wide cast without having them overshadow each other.
I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong here, except that it shouldn't have been scathing as you say (but you also say you apologized, so you're aware of this).
I'm a bit torn between appreciating people who express constructive criticism and thinking that one shouldn't give unsolicited advice. I can see both sides here. But no matter what, I think it's important to be constructive, and not rude.
There is no such rule. Anyone can read anything they want and say anything about it. That’s literally the point of fanfiction. Taking media and interacting with it.
I'm sorry? I was expressing in my post that I find it odd how in a fanfiction platform's official glossary, DL;DR is misinterpreted like that and I was curious what people's stance on it is.
>What I think is wrong with this is that 1) I don't think it means at all that the author only expects positive reviews when mentioning that rule, I agree. "Don't like, don't read" was originally a disclaimer used for fics depicting same sex relationships. So it was very much a: don't complain if you don't like the content. And that's how I still take it. It's content based. If you don't like a particular ship or a trope or a style of fic (modern coffee shop au) and that's all listed in the summary or tags? Don't like, don't read.
One of my least favorite genres that I refused to read is genres where they take a cast from a fantasy or sci-fi or other environment and they put them in a high school environment. Oh so all the people from that show about ninjas instead of being ninjas and performing missions and Adventures they're going to be stuck in class and participating in high school relationship drama. Like why would I want to read that? I don't want to read that; therefore I don't read them.
Yep. Sometime I'm in the mood for an AU (mostly modern/Earth) for fics, but most of the time I want fic set in the universe it comes from. So my Exclude tags on AO3 generally exclude every AU I can think of to tag.
Can definitely get into some AUs occasionally but something just rubs me wrong about taking a cast with fantastic powers or abilities or whatnot and reducing them to high school students. Like I don't think twice about reading my hero Academia which takes place in high school but if someone were to write a my hero Academia story where courts didn't exist and they were all just normal high school students I just wouldn't see the point. I'm totally down though if you want to make an au where a character finds himself in a different time or place but there's still essentially the same person or or an au where there's something fundamentally different about the universe or history or even a plot point went differently than it did in Canon.
I am not a fan of school AUs specifically because I'm in my 40s and just don't want to relate to that environment anymore, but I love modern/no powers AUs. That's where an author shows that they have their characterization dialed in tight.
I find myself enjoying Slice of Life stuff that's super wholesome every now and then even if traditionally I'm more of an adventure guy
I remember those being all the rage in the mid-late '00's. Drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a modern AU of something, but if someone's going to be doing a modern AU of a fantasy thing, I'd like to see their take on how modern stuff works within the rules of the fantasy world. Like...does magic fry electronics (seen it in more than Harry Potter; in Mercedes Lackey's Bedlam's Bard universe, to have electronics work in what she calls Underhill, you need a Faraday Cage or something along those lines for them to be in) or have they found a way for magic to work with electronics? For non-fantasy AUs that are modern day AUs of historical novels, I'd like to see how things change for the characters while still keeping the setting the same. Take Phantom of the Opera, for example. How would Erik/the Phantom's life be a bit different if he'd grown up in a more modern era? The de Chaney family would still have their titles, but how would that be different now in a France without much of a monarchy left? Things like that.
I hate stuff like that too. I see it ragged Coffee Shop or High School AU or whatever then I don’t read it.
I didn't even know where it originated from, that's interesting. But yes, exactly!
Those are… entirely separate. Don’t like don’t read means if you dislike something don’t get mad at the author for making something you personally dislike and just move on. It has nothing to do with reviews.
Yeah, that's misrepresenting what dl;dr is all about: if I don't like mushrooms and order a mushroom dish, my complaint is nonsensical and me criticizing the dish for containing mushrooms is as well. I could have just ordered a Schnitzel instead.
This has me low key wondering... In the US, it's common to get another entree or have your dish taken off the bill if you didn't like it, regardless of reason, so long as you didn't finish it. Or sometimes if you did but that's a whole different thing. There have been a few times when I ordered a dish I wanted to try but wasn't sure if I would like, ended up not eating much but didn't feel it was the fault of the kitchen so I never said anything. Only to have the waitress notice and either comp the dish or insist on bringing me something else without extra charge. It's very kind although I always feel awkward since *I* was the one who decided to proceed with the selection despite *knowing* I might not like it. I almost wonder if it's people who have this kind of... Customer service mentality and are used to being catered to.
That's absolutely *wild* to me. I've paid for dishes with insects in them; the servers just shrugged when I told them about it. We never returned to that place, though. :D
That is one of the few times I'll actually go "umm, excuse me, hi, sorry I'm not comfortable consuming this and I don't want it on my bill, sorry be a pain, I'll actually just take me check now and leave, don't worry I'm still tipping". I just can't with bugs. I'll trip over myself apologizing but I gotta nope out at that point. Only exception was a drink that I watched be placed in front of me bug free, and shortly after a fly landed and drowned in it 😂 I flagged the waitress down and politely asked her to take it away since I wasn't going to consume it but didn't ask for it to be removed from my bill. They did it anyway cause that's just the culture here, for good and ill. I appreciate the kindness, don't get me wrong, but there are times when I think it's taken a bit far.
I’m from Canada and it’s pretty much the same way. As long as they see you only took a few bites they will take it off. I don’t expect it but that’s always been my experience. Bugs though I would be asking for it to be taken off the bill.
Do ya'll have tipping or do you actually pay your waitstaff a living wage up there? I always feel so bad cause waitstaff get penalized for random stuff that is out of their control and they're only make like... 3 or 4 bucks an hour cause tipping is expected to make up the rest.
Wage. Tipping exists, but they're getting paid minimum wage either way.
Tipping unfortunately. I always make sure to leave a good tip for them.
As someone who has intentionally ordered and paid for food that includes roasted insects and the like, I'd still get really upset if the live or dead insect wasn't something as harmless as an aphid. Like a salad with a hitch-hiking baby snail would make me lose my appetite because even just raw snail trails can make you really sick (via parasites/germs).
Oh yeah that's entitled and gross as feck when people expect it. I chose it. I paid for it. Unless there's something actively WRONG with it, I would expect to pay for it. Now if they volunteer, that's them being nice, but a customer expecting it? What happened to personal responsibility?
There are entire generations who have grown up being fed the BS that they’re speshul and that they ‘deserve’ and ‘should have’ anything their pwessus widdle hearts desire. There absolutely is a ‘Feed Meee!’ mindset to life these days. Cater because you just ‘should’, and they will deign to peruse it but never acknowledge that because..they don’t need to. People keep providing the goods even if no one says a word of thanks. Not just re fanfiction but across a couple of social media sites I’ve just about had it and am not going to artificially prop things up in the face of utter disinterest for much longer. Shall I let it take 2 months to die, or start killing it now?
As someone who is not a fan of unsolicited concrit (or what people think passes for such), this is absolutely NOT what DLDR means. DLDR is telling people that if they know full well a story hast tropes/plots/characters they don't enjoy, it's their responsibility to find something else to read. Telling someone that they may not have executed said theme or trope well is one thing, complaining that they the reader wanted XYZ and not ABC that was tagged or and told about in the authors note at the top of the fic is another thing entirely.
Did you mistakenly reply to my comment instead of the post? Since I'm saying the same thing and all, I'm wondering.
My apologies, I was responding to the OP yeah 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
I have accidentally "ordered a mushroom dish" in the past and I probably will occasionally again in the future, and the appropriate response to that is to realize it was your bad because you didn't read the tags thoroughly enough, and just go read something else instead of pestering the writer about your own incompetent actions. It's too weirdly entitled to harass authors about stuff they clearly warned against.
Exactly! And when an author doesn't appreciate that kind of "critique", they are often belittled for it. I will never understand that. If a work contains themes I know I don't like, I either don't even start consuming, or drop the thing if it's sprung upon me without warning - whether it's fanfiction, books, TV series, comics etc. If I don't like something, I can't offer any valuable advice to improve on it anyway; especially if it changes a central part of the work (much like the mushroom dish no longer being a mushroom dish if you replace them with zucchini).
Right! Now I'm craving Schnitzel, but I JUST started a new attempt at not eating meat anymore ... ANYWAY.
I love Valess Schnitzel, just in case that's available where you are ... not vegan though, just vegetarian!
Oh yes, I actually did think of them right after I replied! They are reaaally good. I'm not vegan, though I do try to minimize dairy a bit.
Heh, then go get that Schnitzel!
Might be a lack of understanding of what dl;Dr is, or what criticism entails As in, maybe they're using criticism to mean *constructive* criticism and other complains (you suck, this ship sucks etc) are considered plain harassment
That is possible! I also don't know when it was written, since the platform is 20+ years old. Part of me considered messaging the admins for clarification / ask for them to change it, but from what I read they can be quite mean and I'm a grown up baby. Plus, I might just move to AO3 completely anyway.
Definitely not the same thing. It reminds me of a now-defunct site I used to read some fic on years ago (never posted any fic of my own). You couldn't say anything even *remotely* negative about the fics. Like, I read one that looked intriguing for my ship, sort of a historical/medieval-type AU, and partway through the fic it went into fantasyland with gnomes and everything, and I remember commenting politely that I found the addition of the gnomes a bit odd (along with saying some of the things I liked about the ship and all). The gnomes weren't expected! There were no tags saying "gnomes inside, don't read if you don't like this", lol. The mods got all upset because I wasn't 100% positive about EVERYTHING. I remember being so baffled at this, because mine wasn't a super critical or mean comment at all, and I'd pointed out what I *had* enjoyed, but no, that wasn't acceptable. I quit leaving ANY comments after that. But "don't like, don't read" isn't the same thing at all - that means "this is in this fic, if you know you're not going to enjoy it, don't read it". Not, "you're not allowed to say anything in the slightest bit negative EVER".
> The gnomes weren't expected! This made me laugh harder than it should have. 😭 Sounds like that was another extreme, where absolutely no criticism is allowed, which is also kinda weird. Like I said in another reply, I'm torn between whether unsolicited criticism is okay or not, because as long as it's constructive I feel like it shouldn't be *that* frowned upon. It all depends, I think. And also, I learned that with criticism in general it is always the best practice to start off with something positive!
Haha, I can see how that sentence would do that. XD But it really was quite bizarre. The fandom was a modern-day crime show! A historical AU is one thing. But *gnomes*? I kind of wish the site were still up so I could go back and see if my memory of how weird most of the AUs were is accurate, lol.
I think it's closer to your second point. To me don't like don't read is don't read it if the tags aren't something that you like. If you do read it, don't leave a review complaining that the (for example) omegaverse story is an omegaverse story. No one owes you anything, and the back button is your friend.
“Don’t like, don’t read” = common sense
Untrue for one reason: There is nothing common about sense. World events for the past eight years have proven that.
Highly significant But possibly confusing 🤔
I agree with your point. I say "there's a rape scene in this story, don't like, don't read" not because I want ass pats or nothing. I welcome and encourage feedback that helps me improve. But it's not constructive to come to the story and say "you deserve to die for writing this type of thing". All I care about is how I can write that exact thing, but better lol
I tag for a lot of the big trauma stuff in my fic for the same reason as well as do CW/TW on the specific needed chapters. I also welcome and encourage feedback, including folks asking me to tag something specific if I need to.
That entire quote is horsedung. DLDR does not mean the author isn't inviting criticism, and also publishing something you made online absolutely does not automatically mean you should be cool with criticism *either*. I do like that they went ahead to be wrong on all counts, at least. Committing to the misinformation there.
The saying they're looking for is: if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. They are 100% wrong about giving dl;dr that definition. It doesn't make sense!
The joy people get out of shitting on any form of art is crazy to me.
I definitely get the impression that a lot of writers don't want any negative feedback at all. I don't think it's just that platform that defines dl;dr that way; there seems to be a lot of "positive vibes only" or more of a "don't like, don't *comment*" attitudes (as in, if you read it and ended up not liking it, don't say anything).
That's not really what it means, no, but it got lumped in there over time because fanfiction as a thing has never been about critique. It's about mutual joy, so if you don't like it, shrug and move on. It's a dick move to make it the author's problem. The only compensation they get is kudos and comments. Breaking that social convention just makes you a dick.
I would not trust any platform that insisted that *fanfiction authors* must always be open to public concrit of their work. That is bullshit and implies a toxic mentality on the part of the owners which has almost certainly been reflected in the userbase of the site. I would expect the userbase of such a site to attach morality to their hobby in an unhealthy way, and would not want to have that energy anywhere near my life. Avoid like the plague. For many people, the fanfiction they write is a *gift they are giving* to the community at large. As a reader, your negative opinion is often not relevant to the writer in any way. They didn't write it for you. Often, people who leave negative comments are really saying, "Why don't you write what I want you to write, instead of what you want to write?" And even if not, even if you as a reader are thinking, "No, my criticism is objective, it has nothing to do with taste!" Perhaps it has to do with grammar, spelling, a canon detail that you think the writer got wrong, whatever -- it does not matter. It is fan fiction. If the author did not explicitly state in their notes that they want critical feedback, I strongly believe that you should err on the side of NOT giving it. (And if you as a writer *are* open to critical feedback, it's very easy for you to make it clear to your readers that this is the case. Simply say it.) If you are open to receiving concrit on your fan work from the general public, though, I would caution you thus: You would be better served by a private reading group of people who you trust. Fandom is rife with people who will lie to your face and disguise bullying as "criticism" -- many parts of fandom are comprised of people addicted to their thing, who will dehumanize fan artists and do/say almost anything to get their next fix. They feel entitled to your time and energy and will moralize your hobby and wield the creatives' desire for feedback of any kind against them -- these parasocial relationships are unhealthy for both the artists and their audiences. Protect yourself and learn to set and enforce boundaries with your followers/readers/audiences. Just my take, a mix of lessons learned and therapy received as an older person in fandom (gonna be 40 next year.)
>You would be better served by a private reading group of people who you trust. So much this. Workshopping a fic with other writers is going to get you, by and large, better concrit that you can actually use than hearing from public readers. > Fandom is rife with people who will lie to your face and disguise bullying as "criticism" -- many parts of fandom are comprised of people addicted to their thing, who will dehumanize fan artists and do/say almost anything to get their next fix. Yes. And frankly, the people I see in fandom spaces who have a massive hard-on for leaving concrit (whether the author wants it for not) are exactly these type of jerks that you don't want to deal with.
As a fellow fandom old (*geriatric fistbump*) yes this. Fandom gaslights like nobody's business and yes, I've seen an embarrassing number of people trying to dress up tantrums and bullying as concrit. Never ever saw it end well.
I seen no benefit in giving any unsolicited critical feedback, and certainly none of the "I don't like this" variety. Dude, read the signs. When requested or offered very very gently, critical feedback can be extremely helpful, and I have received some excellent thoughts from folks over the years which has improved my writing. But it's like telling someone you don't like the muffins they baked and brought into the office to share. Whether you think they're bland or you don't like the blueberry muffins because you hate blueberries, its pretty universally a dick move to share that with your amateur cook co-worker who was just trying to do something nice. You could probably get away with correcting a technical deficiency (I think you added salt instead of sugar; you misspelled this character's name), but more than that will generally make you known as "that guy." Some people don't mind being "that guy," but I certainly don't want that reputation.
There’s a difference between constructive criticism and just being mean. I had a fic that got rightful criticism and I listened and talked and took it down. I didn’t take it down when others in the fandom were hating on it and me just because they didn’t like me. No matter how much I was careful to tag for people the block me and to put under a read more— they still were complaining about it. Why read if you don’t want to hear from me? That said… the critical look at it was needed and I had a conversation and understood what needed to be done by removing it. They were just in their comments and I wasn’t going to throw “well then just don’t read it” in their faces. It’s also why I ratted out the bullies who decided to take credit for me removing the fic when it certainly wasn’t because they were being nasty little dicks to the ones who took time to talk to me and to engage me in a meaningful conversation about it.
It's a fallacious connection for sure. I mean, I fully agree with "don't like, don't read", but I'll happily accept people's criticism on my fics. If my story is tagged 'fluff' and someone comments "I fucking hate fluff", that's a waste of both their time and mine. If, on the other hand, they comment, "I fucking hate how *you* wrote this fluff", I'm entirely fine with that opinion (though I'd hope they would elaborate a bit more).
It's from Fanfiktion.de right? I personally don't mind their interpretation because it should be obvious that you shouldn't read a FF with trope/pairing/genre if you hate trope/pairing/genre. But don't like don't read is often used as a standard defense for any constructive criticism and concrit is the standard on FF.de (that's probably why they worded it like that). Like it isn't considered rude to left it unasked there (at least by the people who created/ run this Plattform). The German attitude towards unsolicited concrit is different from the English speaking platforms. And to be honest, I don't find it a bad thing.
Yes! I haven’t personally seen the rule (is it even a rule) being used to avoid constructive criticism (which I think isn’t a bad thing), but if that’s a thing that happens a lot, then it would make sense why they worded it the way they did. But it somehow seems so strict for no reason, I don’t know. Germans are scary. (I am German)
> Germans are scary. I like to joke around with my friends and tell them that their belief that German is a harsh, scary sounding language is nonsense and that it's actually really pleasant to the ear. And then I start quoting lines from Maus.
I generally leave positive reviews or I don't leave reviews at all. If I leave criticisms I try to make them as constructive as possible having to do with a specific story point that feels off or something factual that's incorrect or otherwise something that would help them improve their writing or storytelling. I Won't Say Never because I surely don't remember what all I posted when I was a teenager but I will say currently I do not leave negative posts about the story itself. If I don't like a story because I don't like how the authors portraying the characters or I don't like the plot or I don't like the main idea of the story I just stop reading it.
> criticism is one thing, but if someone criticizes a story solely because it involves something they don't like, then why did they read it in the first place? To me, that feels like a person reads a "Caution! Slippery Floor!" sign, decides to walk on the floor anyway, and then complains that it's slippery. Okay but what if the author decides not to put that slippery floor sign and all of a sudden I get bombarded with a 14 year old's wet dream that has no place in a T-Rated work?
That's on the author, and I believe it is more than warranted to tell them to tag/note their work appropriately.
Should "dead dove, don't eat" be treated as synonymous with "don't like, don't read" or is it only meant to be used to indicate to the reader "there is some REALLY fucked up stuff in this story so any resulting mental trauma is on you"? As someone who used to read a TON of fanfiction 20 years ago before taking an extended break (15+ years) and only recently started reading it again, it seemed that "don't like, don't read" was used by writers to indicate they did not want any criticism at all. Personally, I think that when criticism is given, anything tagged should be off limits and should always be delivered with kindness.
I take Dead Dove as "you get what's on the tin." And that the story is not a PSA/After School Special telling you "oh, the activities contained within are sooo wrong."
I always took it to be similar to Dead Dove, but more general use. Like, you can't stand X ship or trope or whatever? Then why did you read it? Just so you could complain that you don't like coffeeshop AUs??? If it's in the tags or the summary then you can't complain about its existence in the story, you knew what you were getting into.. Now you are free to criticize the execution if you want, but that's a different can of worms to lie in.
My response is : How do I know I'll like it if I haven't read it?
Tags. Summary.
But it could be good tho
Sure. But the point and origin of the saying is: if you read something that has a summary/tags of things you don't normally like, don't flame the author because you took a chance.
I'll be honest even if I get downvoted to hell: I hate seeing the "don't like don't read" thing. First of all, tags are there for a reason. It's the author's responsibility to tag properly, and it's the reader's to read those tags and decide if what they see there matches what they want to read or not. Ditto for summaries. However, what REALLY annoys me is that people think "don't like don't read" makes them immune to constructive criticism, or criticism in general. Or they think that a negative review is flaming or a personal attack. EDIT: WOW this got long. Cutting it down because it got off-subject. When AO3 became popular, constructive criticism was just not the norm anymore. I could leave even harsh criticism on FFN with no issue but a discussion. But AO3? I was reading a fic with an interesting premise that shifted its premise twice without warning to the point that the original premise was barely there, and I ended up writing a - rather scathing - review about their inability to balance a wide cast an advice on how to do it. Yes, my review was really lengthy and poorly worded. I immediately got responses from other people about how I'm toxic and I need to get a life, and after I calmed down a bit I explained that I'm sorry for my manners but NOT for my opinions and explained my advice some more. The author got back to me a few days later saying that they were means "writing this fic for their mental health" and that this review was "not what they needed right now" and that they barely skimmed it. Sir. Ma'am. You *did not say* that you didn't want criticism. I definitely did not have any way to know about your mental health struggles. "Review" means "a formal assessment of something with the intention of instituting change if necessary." Not "praise and gushing". Ever since AO3 became *really big,* the fandom i now full of toxic positivity. It's one thing to say good stuff about a fic you like but expecting nothing *but* good stuff about the stuff you're writing? Doesn't improving feel good? I keep seeing tumblr posts about "not providing constructive criticism unless it's asked for", but then what's the point? Validation? That's not going to carry you far. TD;LR "Don't like don't read" means "look for content that suits you" not "author is immune to criticism".
>First of all, tags are there for a reason. It's the author's responsibility to tag properly, and it's the reader's to read those tags and decide if what they see there matches what they want to read or not. Ditto for summaries. Yes. Which is originally where/how the DL;DR spawned. People would be quite clear about what content was involved in the fic and *still* get flamed by some random reader who didn't like the content, read it anyway and got pissy. >However, what REALLY annoys me is that people think "don't like don't read" makes them immune to constructive criticism, or criticism in general. Or they think that a negative review is flaming or a personal attack. I agree. Nothing on the Internet is going to keep you safe from people who must opine. And a negative review isn't necessarily an attack. Though, on the Internet, people do tend to feel free to let loose with as much ire as they want because they're anonymous. > "Review" means "a formal assessment of something with the intention of instituting change if necessary." Not "praise and gushing". And "Reviews" were never a thing on AO3, only on FFN. Different culture. >"not providing constructive criticism unless it's asked for", but then what's the point? If someone wants to improve and thinks criticism from readers will help, they'll ask for constructive criticism. If they don't think criticism from readers will help or they're simply not interested in "improving," then they won't ask. I honestly don't know how or why it's such a big deal for people to read something, think "well, that wasn't for me for several reasons" and then mosey on if the author doesn't want concrit. You are always free to opine about it elsewhere.
Agree with all of this. I think that this bit: >And "Reviews" were never a thing on AO3, only on FFN. Different culture. is particularly important for those who skew closer to FFN culture to remember. AO3 has NEVER called them “reviews,” they have ALWAYS been “comments” very specifically, since AO3 grew out of LiveJournal culture in the 2000s, which was often at direct odds with FFN culture at that time. It’s totally fine for both giving & receiving concrit on published works to be an integral part of your fandom experience, and I also think it’s totally fine to have no interest in unsolicited concrit on your work. I don’t think one of those is inherently superior, they’re just different. But I DO think it’s important to take into consideration the culture of the place you’re reading or posting; if I posted my fic on FFN, I wouldn’t be upset or bothered by receiving a critical comment, even if it was unsolicited and, imo, unhelpful. But conversely, if you’re reading on AO3, it’s important to remember that the culture there is that, unless the author has *explicitly stated in the notes that they welcome critique*, it’s considered rude to offer concrit. At most, if you feel you genuinely have something helpful to say, you could ASK the author if they’re interested in concrit (as part of a larger comment about what you liked about their work), but you need to respect their answer. (And no response is a “no.”) I think this cultural mismatch is genuinely a big reason for a lot people who strongly prefer one site over the other to have problems when crossing into the other space.
I was acting quite immaturely back then... It was a couple of years back so I'd like to think I would just curse out someone now. But at the time I straight up didn't know about clashing fandom culture.
Okay, but I’m not sure you seem to understand the clashing fandom culture thing NOW. You say in your original comment that, >The author got back to me a few days later saying that they were means "writing this fic for their mental health" and that this review was "not what they needed right now" and that they barely skimmed it. Sir. Ma'am. You did not say that you didn't want criticism. I definitely did not have any way to know about your mental health struggles. and this, which both ArtisinalMoonlight and I already addressed: >"Review" means "a formal assessment of something with the intention of instituting change if necessary." Not "praise and gushing". and then this: >It's one thing to say good stuff about a fic you like but expecting nothing but good stuff about the stuff you're writing? Doesn't improving feel good? I keep seeing tumblr posts about "not providing constructive criticism unless it's asked for", but then what's the point? Validation? That's not going to carry you far. All of those things say to me, “I think this entire culture and way of doing fandom is inferior and bad, and MY way is the only CORRECT way of Doing Fandom and Interacting With Fanfiction.” And I think that’s a pretty dismissive, shitty attitude to have, dude! If you genuinely, in good faith, want to have a discussion about the various merits and drawbacks of both cultures—I think there are both aspects to both options!—and try and see the other perspective, I’m happy to have a discussion with you about it, but I’ll only take the time to bother typing out all my thoughts about this if you’re actually interested.
I didn't mean to sound dismissive in this thread (or in general), and nowadays I generally... I wouldn't say I avoid commenting or reviewing on AO3, I just drop the fics I don't really like. It's just that the whole thing of "if you have nothing good to say don't say it" and "only write for yourself not for others" has been a hot topic button for me for several years because I lost all engagement in what was once my previous WIP out of the blue. I was getting very angry at people for even getting engagement in the first place. I know that's a super toxic attitude to have and I'm working on it but I was generally angry because I thought they were taking for granted their insane priviledge of actually getting attention to the point of being picky about what kind of attention they get. I personally was thirsty for validation and that almost killed my passion for writing. Like I said, that mindset of mine was insanely toxic. Still is, but I'm trying to work through it. But I still can't help but rant whenever the topic comes up - I edited my initial comment (on this thread) to cut it down in length because I know I sounded kind of unhinged and not in the fun way. Overall, if you want to share your thoughts - or just call me out in general really - then feel free to do so. I'll do my best to respond.
I don't know how to quote exact sentences so I hope this comes off clear: I haven't abandoned FFN entirely (I crosspost everything there) but AO3 is objectively the more functional website. This is the reason why many FFN authors moved their content there. So I may have been out of line in assuming a cultural carryover but I don't think that assumption was entirely baseless. Personally my main platform is SB nowadays which strongly classes with AO3, but AO3 is now considered not just the norm but how fandom culture should be everywhere. I do know the difference between "not for me" and "bad writing". There are fics I genuinely hate but are excellently written. If that's the case I just drop those fics and don't review.
> So I may have been out of line in assuming a cultural carryover You were. AO3 has existed as a more comment/discussion culture since its inception as opposed to having readers play Siskel & Ebert. >I do know the difference between "not for me" and "bad writing". Sure, but the whole point is: someone can write badly - objectively - and still not give a fig for doing any better. Your review time is better spent elsewhere, on someone who's actually interested.
I find it amusing that you freely acknowledge the review you wrote in your example was mean and then go on to condemn 'toxic positivity'. People just didn't appreciate the fact that you were being an asshole under the guise of 'constructive criticism' lol.
Right?
I mean, I'm definitely not without fault here, I'm under no illusions for that bit. And tbh the whole thing is something of a hot button topic for me (and I was taking out some frustrations about my own work). I really had no excuse for the language I used but being told "I have no life" did hurt me. I genuinely believed - and still do - that that was the point where the fic turned from "not what I signed up for but still good" to "actually bad writing". EDIT to add: Personally I have no issue with receiving reviews like that. It has been... I think a couple of years since then? And I'm generally in a better mindset about my own work, but I'm still glad for any criticism I receive.
I don't think this is a bad take, or something that needs to be downvoted. >First of all, tags are there for a reason. It's the author's responsibility to tag properly, and it's the reader's to read those tags and decide if what they see there matches what they want to read or not. Ditto for summaries. Yes, absolutely. Personally, I never even wrote the "don't like, don't read" rule anywhere on my fics; I think it's more of a common-sense-thing. That's why I found it so weird when I read in that platform's glossary how it's not appreciated, because why not? But as another user pointed out, people do use it to avoid criticism as a whole, which I think should not be the point of dl;dr. It makes sense why the admins of the platform would say this stance isn't appreciated, even if I don't fully agree with that stance, but I get it. >Then it shifted its premise twice without warning to the point that the original premise was barely there, and I ended up writing a - rather scathing - review about balancing out the personality traits, focus, and story events between the characters. I gave some advice on how to handle a wide cast without having them overshadow each other. I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong here, except that it shouldn't have been scathing as you say (but you also say you apologized, so you're aware of this). I'm a bit torn between appreciating people who express constructive criticism and thinking that one shouldn't give unsolicited advice. I can see both sides here. But no matter what, I think it's important to be constructive, and not rude.
One reason of many I lament the downfall of FFN
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Give us this day our daily thread 🙏
And forgive our opinions on unsolicited criticism 🙏
There is no such rule. Anyone can read anything they want and say anything about it. That’s literally the point of fanfiction. Taking media and interacting with it.
OP, DL;DR doesn't mean "I don't take criticism, especially constructive." It means "If you KNOW you won't like this fic, don't fucking read it."
I know :D That’s why the platform’s guideline irked me so much.
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This post has been removed for violating r/FanFiction's civility rules.
I'm sorry? I was expressing in my post that I find it odd how in a fanfiction platform's official glossary, DL;DR is misinterpreted like that and I was curious what people's stance on it is.