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Agree. One of my in-laws broke his back as a teenager and could be described as making a "full" recovery in terms of mobility and function. But he also has chronic pain that has never gone away and he's a middle aged adult now.
I truly hope this poor fan recovers as much as possible, but I'm like you, I'm a bit dubious about what "full" recovery means here.
A good friend made a full recovery from being rolled on by an enormous horse. "Full recovery" still mean a rod in her spine, pins in her hips, the loss of a kidney and several feet of intestines.
Was she jumping & the horse hit the jump wrong?
I've been riding for more than 30 years & at one point had Olympic aspirations, like any other wide-eyed teen might. As I've gotten older, the jumps have gotten more dangerous & technical, and it's no longer worth it to me.
I'm assuming she does Eventing & was schooling cross-country jumps *(please correct me if I'm wrong)* b/c that's what I do, and we've had a few sport-wide upheavals in favor of horse & rider safety. I personally think they came much later than they should have, especially given the length of time between the conversations starting & the changes being implemented.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I'm glad your friend has recovered.
Oh man that’s scary! Happened to me as a little kid, maybe 9-10 years old and the camp instructors had their backs turned to address other students. I was lucky that my older sister was a counselor there, too - she was watching me ride and pulled me out from under the horse just barely in the nick of time before my leg was crushed.
A few friends of mine are eventers (some at very high levels) and it is absolutely terrifying to me. I was done course walks with them a few times and the prelim (?) fences are insane.
Be safe!
Pretty good. She walks unassisted for the most part, uses a cane sometimes, and she was able to have a baby not too long ago. She does have pain every day that she has to manage and her guts being so short is really hard on her.
Yup. Injured my neck 2 years ago... I'm functional, but I'll never be able to play sports or exercise intensly ever again. Full recovery seems like an odd way to describe it.
Totally agree, full mobility and function =/= full recovery. I mean, plenty of people who just break your average bone wind up having some permanent alteration in terms of how they actually feel, so the idea that this woman could get the WWE treatment from someone literally twice her size, be PARALYZED by it, and walk away with zero permanent harm done is a little hard to believe.
Yeah some injuries you just cannot recover from 100%. Like her body will permanently be more fragile after this. And these problems are definitely going to bite her when she's much older
> loss of propriception
Man I suffered loss of proprioception after dental anesthesia - stuck around for the better part of 2 weeks. The weirdest, most disconcerting thing I've ever experienced, and I've been shocked back from the dead in a hospital once.
Not to mention the venue had clear signs saying specifically not to stage dive. That guy can feel bad all he wants, this was 100% his fault. And yes. $5k is a joke. If he was a normal person and she sued, he'd be on the hook for the full medical bill.
Did I mishear when it was said they accompanied her to the hospital in the ambulance and stayed there with her family etc? I mean, least they can do, but hardly revolting?
Personally, if some reckless idiot caused me lifechanging injuries and put me into massive medical debt, I wouldn't feel safe having them anywhere near me.
They've done this before and the venue had strict rules about NO stage diving.
People before this happened complained about them always wanting to create mosh pits and stage dive without consent, their response was "fuck off" and printed merch with that.
It was the equivalent of blindly swinging a chainsaw around in a crowded room.
Just because you didn't MEAN to injure anyone with it doesn't exonerate you from making a shitty reckless choice that severely hurt other people.
no, but as stated above, the venue had rules AGAINST stage diving, and he blatantly broke those rules. and what were the results of those rules being broken? paralyzing a young woman and damaging her physically for life.
Look, I was at their show a week or so before in the UK. I know what sort of band they are and that they encourage pits etc and I've no problem with that. Most venues have a now stage diving etc policy which is roundly ignored. I have been to very rough shows, crowd surfing shows all sorts of stuff. I have no issue with their shows being like that.
However, I've seen the footage of him jumping. He's like 6'5 and big. He jumped on the first song with no warning and often the front few rows are filled with smaller people. He should have known better and it was incredibly stupid of him.
Always blows my mind to read about ‘healthcare’ in America. Insanity. I feel so bad for people having to live somewhere where an accident or bad fortune can ruin you financially
I had a scheduled, medically necessary surgery a few years ago and even with insurance, I'm still paying it off. The pre-surgery physical and bloodwork alone cost almost $1k. All told the whole ordeal cost around $6,000. I ended up taking out a consolidation loan to pay everything off because the loan has better interest rates than the medical bills. And I consider myself lucky because I have insurance. It's fucking farcical.
Yep. I once fell on some stairs and hit my head. I was somehow able to walk to the ER (NYC), so no ambulance. I had brain bleeds, but they resolved on their own without surgery. So - scans, staples, and one night in the stepdown unit. Sticker price: $80,000. Only cost me about $2k because of my insurance, but MSRP was a Mercedes for a freak accident.
When I was 19, I had to be taken by ambulance to the hospital for a stomach virus. I'll spare the details, but it was bad enough that my strict German mother was even freaking out. I got a bill for 555$ for the ambulance ride. The hospital is 9 miles away from where we lived. That's roughly 61$ per mile. I think my parents paid the bill for me, this was 10 years ago.
My brother is an EMT. If someone isn't serious enough, he'll tell them to Uber to the hospital because this ride is gonna be way too expensive for what they have going on.
What happens if you don’t pay because you can’t afford it but you were unconscious so couldn’t deny the ambulance ride? Like is the bill moot bc you didn’t consent?
It's always crazy to hear about the high taxes that the average American seems to pay, given that their government isn't giving it back via new/renewing infrastructure and health care.
You seem to think the high prices people post are what they actually have to pay. The high prices are what your insurance gets charged, you pay for less. Like your deductible is $6000 a year, once you hit that you do not pay more. So if you have a $2 million USD surgery, you only pay $6000. And the rest of the year everything is covered fully
it is insane that I’ve been hearing about America’s healthcare issues for at least a decade now and I am still fucking REVOLTED every single time at those prices…
Like I called an ambulance for a migraine last week so they could give me a painkiller shot for free and I didn’t have to move
As someone from Russia, girl WHAT THE FUCK
I was considering operation for my spinal hernia and for that amount of money I could do it 2.5 times over at the best clinic in the city
WOOF. I live in Canada but ambulance transport (or even treatment by a paramedic without the ride) is not covered by my provinces health care plan. But it’s still only a few hundred bucks and we all fume about it and try to get the debt cancelled, heh.
i know you’re being sarcastic but it’s genuinely still melting my brain that he knowingly broke venue rules and caused this girl unbelievable physical and mental trauma then got a pass because he’s a swell guy who rode with her in the ambulance, while they were selling merch of the band telling a fan who raised concerns about their lack of moshing/diving etiquette and control of the crowd to fuck off
I can absolutely understand why the scene has such a bad reputation and why bands get away with so much dark sided shit when fans continue to enable them
Yeah, on twitter I saw anyone who even mildly questioned why the singer was breaking venue guidelines and stage diving in the first place, get yelled at and torn to shreds because "omfg it's apart of the culture and he gave some money to her gofundme stop attacking him!! 😠"
I like the punk scene, but it definitely has issues sometimes with people enabling and overly defending mid men who don't deserve it.
Even if you ignore the fact that they broke venue rules it’s crazy how their defenders are treating a $5000 donation as a consolation prize for what could have been a life ruining injury
Oh my god I didn't realize she was 24. Never thought about thinking about it from the perspective of someone born in 2000. Imagine being that age and getting fucking bodyslammed by a 6ft man and the point of contact is the top of your head. Atp just beat the shit out of me instead
> Piché, her mother and her stepfather declined to comment when they were asked whether they're considering any civil action.
Good
Can’t believe the band is still touring like nothing ever happened. I hope she sues them into oblivion, but I fear she seems too nice to do that :/. I wish the best recovery for her
When Vince Neil killed Razzle when driving drunk in 84, the lawyers for those seriously injured in the other car asked for Vince to get a light prison sentence. Because he was set to make so much money, and they needed Vince to make money so they (the injured party) could get money for medical bills and the lifelong injury they were left with.
This is also an issue with DV against athletes, especially those that are sort of hanging around the league.
They have a greater chance of getting blacklisted for DV/other intimate partner violence since they are not famous, and the league can make an example of them despite their other cover ups.
All that does is hurt the victim more, especially when children are involved.
Honestly, isn't that what anyone would want/expect them to do? I don't mean to continue stage diving and dangerous behaviour as if nothing happened, but to continue on the tour. They/their record label are obviously going to have to pay out massively for the medical bills, and if they don't honor their contracts (they're on tour and have contractual obligations to do the work they agreed to) they will lose a lot of money (loss of profits obviously, but also penalties for breaking contracts) and would most likely become insolvent/not have the money to pay and it will be a huge hassle for the family to get anything out of them. As far as I'm aware it's a tiny band and record label, it's not like Taylor swift with lots of money behind them. I feel like they should be trying to make as much money as possible and it should all go to the injured woman for her recovery. The logic that they should quit work (resulting in loss of work for many people beyond the band themselves) because one person caused an accident is beyond me (obviously they have to stop the behaviour that caused the accident, but why stop work altogether? Stopping work literally does nothing to help this woman, to reverse what happened or prevent anything like that happening again). Most people should think they need to work harder in order to be able to take financial responsibility for what happened, not declare bankruptcy and go on an extended holiday.
I don’t think you realize how much that would cost. Cancelling the venues, paying back the tickets, all the money they would loose my not touring, album sales, merch sales, no management would let them stop touring.
Shouldn't have crippled someone. There should be consequences for actions. Money, money, money. Good God does money create callous and reprehensible people.
Down vote me all you want capitalist pigs, it doesn't change the truth.
Except if the band has less money, that's less money that the victim can get through civil trial. The fact is that the victim likely has considerable medical bills, will continue to have considerable medical costs, and may require additional treatment beyond what insurance will cover to restore full function.
This is a slam dunk civil case as well.
Wow, that's amazing news. Hope the recovery continues to go well for her, I cant imagine thinking one second you're having a good time at a concert and the next, you're waking up in hospital.
I've been kicked in the head and face by crowd surfers (audience members). The band encouraged it even if the venue/security tried to stop it. It probably looks really fun when you're not the one getting someone's foot in the eye.
Confirm that I have had at least two concussions from crowd surfers. Every show I’ve been to where any member of the band comes into the crowd has been done with the compliance of the venue/security and with fair warning to the crowd…
Exactly, my friend was crowd surfing once, and guys pushed her out of the crowd, and she fell on the ground and broke her arm.
I also saw one girl who wanted to be closer to the band, so she asked her friends to "surf her to the front." Some guys started grabbing her boobs and ass instead of passing her further. They've put her on the ground, and a few more men joined, and they all groped her until security came in.
And it wasn't even any crazy festival, just a small concert in a pub with diluted beer.
Idk if I agree with that because most people think crowdsurfing is a once in a lifetime thing that’s absolutely awesome. Not that they’ll be SA’d or have expensive jewelry, ID, or personal info stolen.
I crowdsurfed at 17 and even then I was smart enough to know that being on top of people could mean SA or pocket thefts. Sometimes people just need to think about their actions.
I know a woman who sprained both her wrists at once due to a crowdsurfer. Crowdsurfing is only ever fun for the one who surfes, never for the ones carrying them.
It is already, essentially prohibited ….
Here is an excerpt from an actual public liability insurance policy for a live event ….
“Projectiles / Stage Diving Exclusion
This Policy does not cover liability in respect of Personal Injury or Property Damage arising out of or caused by or in connection with launch or distribution of projectiles by any performers or crew in the direction of attendees or otherwise within the venue. Further this policy does not cover liability in respect of Personal Injury or Property Damage arising out of or caused by or in connection with performers or any crew stage diving or crowd surfing ”
And another, similar policy
“EXCLUSIONS:
8.22 Crowd Surfing, Moshing and Stage Diving
crowd surfing, stage diving and or moshing activities.
However, this exclusion shall not apply to the Insured's liability arising from these activities, subject to a condition that signage is present near the stage and at the entrance to the venue prohibiting moshing, stage diving & crowd surfing.”
As you can see, it is likely that trophy eyes as an entity is responsible for any damages resulting from this incident, without support from their insurer …..
Thus any reputable professional entertainment outfit with half decent management would be advised to abstain from these type of activities due to the level (and consequence) of risk involved….
The people who defended the dive by saying “it’s part of the show” blah blah blah, what’s not part of the show is paralyzing people. Glad she’s recovering, should have never happened.
Right, I couldn’t believe how many people were saying ‘you should expect injuries at this type of concert.’ I grew up going to these types of shows and I’m sorry but precisely nobody expects a long-term, life altering injury from a gig. Bruises and stuff sure, but no-one is going in thinking ‘realistically there’s a chance I could be permanently paralyzed and I am fully ok taking that risk!’ People are being totally disingenuous about the level of risk that’s expected at these sorts of shows, and no matter how punk you are there’s no way most of the audience would attend these gigs if it was actually common to get severely injured like this.
I saw someone on twitter trying to justify it by saying that they got their ear ripped off but like...you shouldn't have. You don't go to a *concert* with the preparation to lose a body part or get paralyzed.
Punk rock has alway been about opposing civil suits regarding injuries due to the strain on our court system.
I believe it was Pink Floyd who said "hey trial lawyers, leave the Chamber of Commerce alone!"
I go to shows monthly no way anyway expects paralysis or life altering injuries. That's not even within the realm of "reasonable" risks. Even where there has been crowd surfing there's guards following to monitor.
Hell the one time I got whacked by some guys foot I was mad lol.
Of course paralyzing is not the intended part of stage diving, just like crashing your car is not the intended part of driving. Should we do more to deter those accidents from happening? Of course. Should we ban it all together? No
Sure lets use fireworks as an analogy then. The intention of fireworks is not to burn and disfigure people, but it can happen. That does not mean we should ban them.
Except they signed a contract with the venue and agreed specifically to not crowd surf.
In your analogy it would be if fireworks were banned and you chose to illegally set them off without warning.
And then claim you don't bear any responsibility for injuries
It's hardcore. Hurting people literally is part of the scene/shows. You can go to the hardcore subreddit and see them celebrating a furry having his jaw broken. It's a fucking trash scene
Good for her. I hope she doesn’t have any long lasting or recurring pain after this.
This guy should have known better. The place they were playing in already told him NOT to do this stupid stage diving shit and people blamed her for just being in the way as if she expected a 6ft dude to dive for her head.
Fuck this guys stupidity and fuck his enablers.
i’m really happy to hear this. the lead singer of the band sounds like a dick. he’s on social media telling people to fuck off like he didn’t sign a contract and agreed not to stage dive and still did, PARALYZING someone… wish the best in the recovery journey for her 💕
I said this in another thread, but I just cannot believe how many fans of this idiotic band are trying to rewrite the history of punk music and make it seem like this individual knowingly took a risk because “the culture”. Punk is about breaking down outdated systems and making the world a better place for people. Breaking the VERY VALID rules at a small venue as a middle finger to “the man” is small dick energy at its finest - arrogant posers who can’t comprehend the fact that early punks broke rules with purpose, not because they wanted to impress a bunch of teenagers.
I can’t imagine what this poor woman has been going through and I, like other commenters, have been thinking about her the last few days. I don’t know what a full recovery means with her injury, but I hope life swiftly reaches a state of normalcy.
Am in my 50s. Have been going to gigs since the mid 80s. Punk as a subculture got taken over like 30 years ago. What exists now is kind of a joke.
She got hurt because young people have no idea how to slamdance properly. Do it right, no one gets hurt (much).
A particular set of zingers on Twitter pointed to it being a “culture” thing and she knew the risks when she attended.
How barbaric and totally insensitive, I hope she can reclaim as much feeling and normality from this as possible.
Which is a wild take because it directly goes against punk culture. Catapulting yourself into an UNSUSPECTING crowd ain’t punk, it’s careless and dangerous. Saying “fuck you” in response to fans not feeling safe at shows by this particular band ain’t punk either. Bands like this shouldn’t be in the scene tbh.
>A particular set of zingers on Twitter pointed to it being a “culture” thing and she knew the risks when she attended.
Some cultures are just fucking trash. Hardcore is one of them
This poor woman.
I remember being 17 at the barricade of a show and the singer for Title Fight was like "come on guys, it's important to hold up the surfers and divers, everyone is trying to have a good time"
as 200lb grown ass men flipped their entire body weight onto a row of teenagers. I ended up getting my head crushed up against one of the speakers at the front of the stage and needed to get my head stapled.
But "everyone is trying to have a good time"
I’m so happy to hear this. I love(d) this band and have seen them live so many times. I haven’t listened to their music since I read the story initially. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to again.
I honestly hope this is a wake up call for all other artists who do/are considering doing this kind of thing. Nobody should be slinging their full body weight into a crowd, especially not very tall men with a younger audience. I feel like gently lowering yourself down onto a crowd, if you want to do this, is a pretty simple solution.
A few years ago the band Joyce Manor got absolutely fucking roasted by no-brain punk fans because they went on stage and told the crowd to stop fucking stage diving before someone gets seriously injured. To this day people still talk shit about them because “it’s part of the culture” or whatever. Around the same time I got knocked out and got a concussion from a stage diver at a concert and it was so frustrating seeing friends of mine make excuses for it like “people should expect it at punk shows or don’t go if you can’t” like it was ridiculous for me to want to go see my favorite bands play without sacrificing my personal safety!
I'm so happy for her. I still wholeheartedly believe that her and her family should pursue civil action. I really hope the fans of the band don't try to bully her into thinking otherwise.
The fact the venue had banned stagediving and the band was well aware of it beforehand. Like Bird (beautiful name) I’m so glad you’re okay, Sue them for all they are worth.
The band literally is so lucky that she didn’t die. The man is 6’5.
that's great to hear! that band has a shitty history of crowdsurfering and not listening to their fans,(https://www.reddit.com/r/TrophyEyes/comments/1cqmjhc/well\_this\_shirt\_aged\_like\_milk/) so hopefully they finally stop
I'm so happy to hear that she'll be making a full recovery! Having such a traumatic experience at such a young age...I can't even imagine. Watching the video was horrific.
I understand certain elements of "gig culture" are still around but logically (and especially if you're a man over six feet tall) you'd think one would read the room to see if a stage dive would even be possible with the people nearby (at venues that allow them of course)!
I feel awful this happened to her, and is it a tragedy and I really hope she fully recovers, but idk why everyone is tearing the band apart. This kind of music always has stage dives, crowd surfing, moshing etc.. I do not understand why people are so mad. Whenever I go to shows and I’m near the stage I already know I gotta protect my head. She seemed caught off guard and things went the worst way possible and it’s in no way her fault but all of these people saying “eW cRoWd surfing/StaGe dIviNg in 2024” are losers lol. It’s a tragic accident but other people are still allowed to have fun at these shows doing what people have been doing for years. We’ve just gotta be there to help each other up.
That’s such a relief, so happy for her. Still, fuck that band and everyone who defended them
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Agree. One of my in-laws broke his back as a teenager and could be described as making a "full" recovery in terms of mobility and function. But he also has chronic pain that has never gone away and he's a middle aged adult now. I truly hope this poor fan recovers as much as possible, but I'm like you, I'm a bit dubious about what "full" recovery means here.
A good friend made a full recovery from being rolled on by an enormous horse. "Full recovery" still mean a rod in her spine, pins in her hips, the loss of a kidney and several feet of intestines.
That sounds like a rotational fall, and those are scary AF.
Oh yeah, she was very lucky some Frisbee golfers (love then forever!) witnessed it and an ambulance got her to a hospital in under 15 minutes.
Was she jumping & the horse hit the jump wrong? I've been riding for more than 30 years & at one point had Olympic aspirations, like any other wide-eyed teen might. As I've gotten older, the jumps have gotten more dangerous & technical, and it's no longer worth it to me. I'm assuming she does Eventing & was schooling cross-country jumps *(please correct me if I'm wrong)* b/c that's what I do, and we've had a few sport-wide upheavals in favor of horse & rider safety. I personally think they came much later than they should have, especially given the length of time between the conversations starting & the changes being implemented. Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I'm glad your friend has recovered.
No, she lives at an equestrian camp and cares for the animals year round. She was riding her big boy when he decided to drop and roll.
Oh man that’s scary! Happened to me as a little kid, maybe 9-10 years old and the camp instructors had their backs turned to address other students. I was lucky that my older sister was a counselor there, too - she was watching me ride and pulled me out from under the horse just barely in the nick of time before my leg was crushed.
My cousin had a fall like this - the horse dropped dead while she was riding it. Bad time all around.
A few friends of mine are eventers (some at very high levels) and it is absolutely terrifying to me. I was done course walks with them a few times and the prelim (?) fences are insane. Be safe!
How was her QOL following the recovery?
Pretty good. She walks unassisted for the most part, uses a cane sometimes, and she was able to have a baby not too long ago. She does have pain every day that she has to manage and her guts being so short is really hard on her.
Yup. Injured my neck 2 years ago... I'm functional, but I'll never be able to play sports or exercise intensly ever again. Full recovery seems like an odd way to describe it.
Her close friend came on TikTok and said that she is not paralyzed. Idk if that changed or if there's just bad information being shared further.
Totally agree, full mobility and function =/= full recovery. I mean, plenty of people who just break your average bone wind up having some permanent alteration in terms of how they actually feel, so the idea that this woman could get the WWE treatment from someone literally twice her size, be PARALYZED by it, and walk away with zero permanent harm done is a little hard to believe.
Yeah some injuries you just cannot recover from 100%. Like her body will permanently be more fragile after this. And these problems are definitely going to bite her when she's much older
> loss of propriception Man I suffered loss of proprioception after dental anesthesia - stuck around for the better part of 2 weeks. The weirdest, most disconcerting thing I've ever experienced, and I've been shocked back from the dead in a hospital once.
Exactly. [They felt entitled](https://imgur.com/a/7dgmpEA) to behavior that endangered the audience.
Do you believe it was intentional?
It was careless, and donating $5k was a joke.
Not to mention the venue had clear signs saying specifically not to stage dive. That guy can feel bad all he wants, this was 100% his fault. And yes. $5k is a joke. If he was a normal person and she sued, he'd be on the hook for the full medical bill.
It was negligent, and their behaviour afterwards was revolting.
Did I mishear when it was said they accompanied her to the hospital in the ambulance and stayed there with her family etc? I mean, least they can do, but hardly revolting?
It was sharing the gofundme, donating 5k, and telling fans that there was an accident as if they didn't directly cause it
As opposed to?
I mean I'm not sure what the polite thing to do is after breaking someone's neck but I don't think that's it
Personally, if some reckless idiot caused me lifechanging injuries and put me into massive medical debt, I wouldn't feel safe having them anywhere near me.
He intentionally broke the rules of the venue.
Do you think DUIs that result in deaths are intentional?
They've done this before and the venue had strict rules about NO stage diving. People before this happened complained about them always wanting to create mosh pits and stage dive without consent, their response was "fuck off" and printed merch with that.
It was the equivalent of blindly swinging a chainsaw around in a crowded room. Just because you didn't MEAN to injure anyone with it doesn't exonerate you from making a shitty reckless choice that severely hurt other people.
I mean, he didn’t trip and fall on her.
no, but as stated above, the venue had rules AGAINST stage diving, and he blatantly broke those rules. and what were the results of those rules being broken? paralyzing a young woman and damaging her physically for life.
Did you reply to the wrong person? Because yeah my point was also that he was acting recklessly in a way that could’ve even killed someone
Look, I was at their show a week or so before in the UK. I know what sort of band they are and that they encourage pits etc and I've no problem with that. Most venues have a now stage diving etc policy which is roundly ignored. I have been to very rough shows, crowd surfing shows all sorts of stuff. I have no issue with their shows being like that. However, I've seen the footage of him jumping. He's like 6'5 and big. He jumped on the first song with no warning and often the front few rows are filled with smaller people. He should have known better and it was incredibly stupid of him.
Oh thank god. Get well soon and sue that man for all he’s worth 🥰
But the band donated $5k to her go fund me 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺
Sooo the ambulance ride and the ER check in.
I hate to say this, but as someone who went on a cheeky little ambulance ride a few years ago….. that probably only covers half of the ride 🫶🏻
Always blows my mind to read about ‘healthcare’ in America. Insanity. I feel so bad for people having to live somewhere where an accident or bad fortune can ruin you financially
I had a scheduled, medically necessary surgery a few years ago and even with insurance, I'm still paying it off. The pre-surgery physical and bloodwork alone cost almost $1k. All told the whole ordeal cost around $6,000. I ended up taking out a consolidation loan to pay everything off because the loan has better interest rates than the medical bills. And I consider myself lucky because I have insurance. It's fucking farcical.
Yep. I once fell on some stairs and hit my head. I was somehow able to walk to the ER (NYC), so no ambulance. I had brain bleeds, but they resolved on their own without surgery. So - scans, staples, and one night in the stepdown unit. Sticker price: $80,000. Only cost me about $2k because of my insurance, but MSRP was a Mercedes for a freak accident.
Jesus. I’m sorry that happened to you. It’s incredibly inhumane. I fear our health service (UK) will go a similar way
When I was 19, I had to be taken by ambulance to the hospital for a stomach virus. I'll spare the details, but it was bad enough that my strict German mother was even freaking out. I got a bill for 555$ for the ambulance ride. The hospital is 9 miles away from where we lived. That's roughly 61$ per mile. I think my parents paid the bill for me, this was 10 years ago. My brother is an EMT. If someone isn't serious enough, he'll tell them to Uber to the hospital because this ride is gonna be way too expensive for what they have going on.
What happens if you don’t pay because you can’t afford it but you were unconscious so couldn’t deny the ambulance ride? Like is the bill moot bc you didn’t consent?
No you still have to pay it
That’s barbaric
I just had a baby and my deductible is $8k, so with premiums and pediatrician visits we’ll spend around $18-20k on healthcare this year.
It's always crazy to hear about the high taxes that the average American seems to pay, given that their government isn't giving it back via new/renewing infrastructure and health care.
You seem to think the high prices people post are what they actually have to pay. The high prices are what your insurance gets charged, you pay for less. Like your deductible is $6000 a year, once you hit that you do not pay more. So if you have a $2 million USD surgery, you only pay $6000. And the rest of the year everything is covered fully
lol my 5 minute (no exaggeration) ride to the hospital was over 1k too😵💫 insane
i went from my uni campus to a hospital on that same campus and they charged me $2k looool
i…what a country
it is insane that I’ve been hearing about America’s healthcare issues for at least a decade now and I am still fucking REVOLTED every single time at those prices… Like I called an ambulance for a migraine last week so they could give me a painkiller shot for free and I didn’t have to move
jiminy christmas
As someone from Russia, girl WHAT THE FUCK I was considering operation for my spinal hernia and for that amount of money I could do it 2.5 times over at the best clinic in the city
Every country has its glaringly terrible issues
WOOF. I live in Canada but ambulance transport (or even treatment by a paramedic without the ride) is not covered by my provinces health care plan. But it’s still only a few hundred bucks and we all fume about it and try to get the debt cancelled, heh.
My dad was DOA, the ambulance was a technicality for law enforcement, and the bill was still $800 🙃
And what did you pay after insurance?
Used a bit of air that was in the check in area by having the audacity to breathe so that’s another $5K
i know you’re being sarcastic but it’s genuinely still melting my brain that he knowingly broke venue rules and caused this girl unbelievable physical and mental trauma then got a pass because he’s a swell guy who rode with her in the ambulance, while they were selling merch of the band telling a fan who raised concerns about their lack of moshing/diving etiquette and control of the crowd to fuck off I can absolutely understand why the scene has such a bad reputation and why bands get away with so much dark sided shit when fans continue to enable them
What? He went with her in the ambulance?! Did she even consent to that? I'd be furious is the cause of a life altering injury was right there with me!
She's a huge fan and apparently appreciated his concern. Whether it was authentic concern I don't think anyone can say. Only he knows his intentions.
Yeah, on twitter I saw anyone who even mildly questioned why the singer was breaking venue guidelines and stage diving in the first place, get yelled at and torn to shreds because "omfg it's apart of the culture and he gave some money to her gofundme stop attacking him!! 😠" I like the punk scene, but it definitely has issues sometimes with people enabling and overly defending mid men who don't deserve it.
I saw that Reddit post and the comments were hating on that “Karen fan!!!”
But IT'S THE CULTURE
5k, how generous of them!
Put another way, the band already admitted fault.
Even if you ignore the fact that they broke venue rules it’s crazy how their defenders are treating a $5000 donation as a consolation prize for what could have been a life ruining injury
They should pay for her medical care relating to her spine for the rest of her life.
/s or no?
The band actually did donate $5k. If you replace the emojis with an /s it should make more sense
Oh my god I didn't realize she was 24. Never thought about thinking about it from the perspective of someone born in 2000. Imagine being that age and getting fucking bodyslammed by a 6ft man and the point of contact is the top of your head. Atp just beat the shit out of me instead > Piché, her mother and her stepfather declined to comment when they were asked whether they're considering any civil action. Good
Can’t believe the band is still touring like nothing ever happened. I hope she sues them into oblivion, but I fear she seems too nice to do that :/. I wish the best recovery for her
They’re probably trying to get as much $ as they can on the road in preparation for the inevitable case.
I wonder if he has stage dived since?
The hardcores scene is fucking trash so his fans are probably demanding it even more now
Not the point igi but I definitely wouldn't call them hardcore lol
When Vince Neil killed Razzle when driving drunk in 84, the lawyers for those seriously injured in the other car asked for Vince to get a light prison sentence. Because he was set to make so much money, and they needed Vince to make money so they (the injured party) could get money for medical bills and the lifelong injury they were left with.
This is also an issue with DV against athletes, especially those that are sort of hanging around the league. They have a greater chance of getting blacklisted for DV/other intimate partner violence since they are not famous, and the league can make an example of them despite their other cover ups. All that does is hurt the victim more, especially when children are involved.
Honestly, isn't that what anyone would want/expect them to do? I don't mean to continue stage diving and dangerous behaviour as if nothing happened, but to continue on the tour. They/their record label are obviously going to have to pay out massively for the medical bills, and if they don't honor their contracts (they're on tour and have contractual obligations to do the work they agreed to) they will lose a lot of money (loss of profits obviously, but also penalties for breaking contracts) and would most likely become insolvent/not have the money to pay and it will be a huge hassle for the family to get anything out of them. As far as I'm aware it's a tiny band and record label, it's not like Taylor swift with lots of money behind them. I feel like they should be trying to make as much money as possible and it should all go to the injured woman for her recovery. The logic that they should quit work (resulting in loss of work for many people beyond the band themselves) because one person caused an accident is beyond me (obviously they have to stop the behaviour that caused the accident, but why stop work altogether? Stopping work literally does nothing to help this woman, to reverse what happened or prevent anything like that happening again). Most people should think they need to work harder in order to be able to take financial responsibility for what happened, not declare bankruptcy and go on an extended holiday.
It also depends on whether he continues to violate those very contracts by continuing to stage dive.
I'm just curious, what do you want them to do instead?
When I accidentally cripple people I tend to wait a few weeks to make sure they're actually ok before I continue like nothing happened
I don’t think you realize how much that would cost. Cancelling the venues, paying back the tickets, all the money they would loose my not touring, album sales, merch sales, no management would let them stop touring.
Shouldn't have crippled someone. There should be consequences for actions. Money, money, money. Good God does money create callous and reprehensible people. Down vote me all you want capitalist pigs, it doesn't change the truth.
Except if the band has less money, that's less money that the victim can get through civil trial. The fact is that the victim likely has considerable medical bills, will continue to have considerable medical costs, and may require additional treatment beyond what insurance will cover to restore full function. This is a slam dunk civil case as well.
I’m not saying it’s right, but it’s the reality we live in.
Wow, that's amazing news. Hope the recovery continues to go well for her, I cant imagine thinking one second you're having a good time at a concert and the next, you're waking up in hospital.
She was conscious the entire time, according to the article. I couldn't imagine the fear...
I'm an idiot who didn't read the "didn't" before the blacked out! But yeah, that's probably worse tbh.
Crowd surfing should end. It’s 2024 ffs
Crowd surfing and crowd diving are different things.
Even then crowd surfing’s dangerous. Seen cases where people were SA’d or stolen from in the process and shit
I've been kicked in the head and face by crowd surfers (audience members). The band encouraged it even if the venue/security tried to stop it. It probably looks really fun when you're not the one getting someone's foot in the eye.
It's always the tallest men crowdsurfing as well
Confirm that I have had at least two concussions from crowd surfers. Every show I’ve been to where any member of the band comes into the crowd has been done with the compliance of the venue/security and with fair warning to the crowd…
Exactly, my friend was crowd surfing once, and guys pushed her out of the crowd, and she fell on the ground and broke her arm. I also saw one girl who wanted to be closer to the band, so she asked her friends to "surf her to the front." Some guys started grabbing her boobs and ass instead of passing her further. They've put her on the ground, and a few more men joined, and they all groped her until security came in. And it wasn't even any crazy festival, just a small concert in a pub with diluted beer.
Yeah but the only person hurt is the person who consented to crowdsurfing
Idk if I agree with that because most people think crowdsurfing is a once in a lifetime thing that’s absolutely awesome. Not that they’ll be SA’d or have expensive jewelry, ID, or personal info stolen.
I crowdsurfed at 17 and even then I was smart enough to know that being on top of people could mean SA or pocket thefts. Sometimes people just need to think about their actions.
I've gotten injuries many times by crowd surfers
yeah, crowd surfing is fine imo if done by the right people and safely. diving is a separate issue
I know a woman who sprained both her wrists at once due to a crowdsurfer. Crowdsurfing is only ever fun for the one who surfes, never for the ones carrying them.
It is already, essentially prohibited …. Here is an excerpt from an actual public liability insurance policy for a live event …. “Projectiles / Stage Diving Exclusion This Policy does not cover liability in respect of Personal Injury or Property Damage arising out of or caused by or in connection with launch or distribution of projectiles by any performers or crew in the direction of attendees or otherwise within the venue. Further this policy does not cover liability in respect of Personal Injury or Property Damage arising out of or caused by or in connection with performers or any crew stage diving or crowd surfing ” And another, similar policy “EXCLUSIONS: 8.22 Crowd Surfing, Moshing and Stage Diving crowd surfing, stage diving and or moshing activities. However, this exclusion shall not apply to the Insured's liability arising from these activities, subject to a condition that signage is present near the stage and at the entrance to the venue prohibiting moshing, stage diving & crowd surfing.” As you can see, it is likely that trophy eyes as an entity is responsible for any damages resulting from this incident, without support from their insurer ….. Thus any reputable professional entertainment outfit with half decent management would be advised to abstain from these type of activities due to the level (and consequence) of risk involved….
The people who defended the dive by saying “it’s part of the show” blah blah blah, what’s not part of the show is paralyzing people. Glad she’s recovering, should have never happened.
Right, I couldn’t believe how many people were saying ‘you should expect injuries at this type of concert.’ I grew up going to these types of shows and I’m sorry but precisely nobody expects a long-term, life altering injury from a gig. Bruises and stuff sure, but no-one is going in thinking ‘realistically there’s a chance I could be permanently paralyzed and I am fully ok taking that risk!’ People are being totally disingenuous about the level of risk that’s expected at these sorts of shows, and no matter how punk you are there’s no way most of the audience would attend these gigs if it was actually common to get severely injured like this.
I saw someone on twitter trying to justify it by saying that they got their ear ripped off but like...you shouldn't have. You don't go to a *concert* with the preparation to lose a body part or get paralyzed.
I agree. I used to go to heavy metal concerts and regardless of the type of concert i did not once expect to be paralyzed thanks like wtf
Nothing says "punk" like mindlessly dicksucking your fave when he did something objectively shitty!
Punk rock has alway been about opposing civil suits regarding injuries due to the strain on our court system. I believe it was Pink Floyd who said "hey trial lawyers, leave the Chamber of Commerce alone!"
I go to shows monthly no way anyway expects paralysis or life altering injuries. That's not even within the realm of "reasonable" risks. Even where there has been crowd surfing there's guards following to monitor. Hell the one time I got whacked by some guys foot I was mad lol.
Right! It was also against venue policy.
Of course paralyzing is not the intended part of stage diving, just like crashing your car is not the intended part of driving. Should we do more to deter those accidents from happening? Of course. Should we ban it all together? No
I’m not sure that’s the best comparison bc transportation is essential and stage diving is not
Sure lets use fireworks as an analogy then. The intention of fireworks is not to burn and disfigure people, but it can happen. That does not mean we should ban them.
Except they signed a contract with the venue and agreed specifically to not crowd surf. In your analogy it would be if fireworks were banned and you chose to illegally set them off without warning. And then claim you don't bear any responsibility for injuries
It's hardcore. Hurting people literally is part of the scene/shows. You can go to the hardcore subreddit and see them celebrating a furry having his jaw broken. It's a fucking trash scene
Trophy eyes is definitely not hardcore.
Thank god, that's great news. She's been in my thoughts a lot the past few days.
Thank goodness, her ordeal sounded terrifying. I hope she gets compensated to the absolute maximum for the physical and mental trauma
Good for her. I hope she doesn’t have any long lasting or recurring pain after this. This guy should have known better. The place they were playing in already told him NOT to do this stupid stage diving shit and people blamed her for just being in the way as if she expected a 6ft dude to dive for her head. Fuck this guys stupidity and fuck his enablers.
Thank God! Poor girl.
i’m really happy to hear this. the lead singer of the band sounds like a dick. he’s on social media telling people to fuck off like he didn’t sign a contract and agreed not to stage dive and still did, PARALYZING someone… wish the best in the recovery journey for her 💕
Wow! What's his @?
I said this in another thread, but I just cannot believe how many fans of this idiotic band are trying to rewrite the history of punk music and make it seem like this individual knowingly took a risk because “the culture”. Punk is about breaking down outdated systems and making the world a better place for people. Breaking the VERY VALID rules at a small venue as a middle finger to “the man” is small dick energy at its finest - arrogant posers who can’t comprehend the fact that early punks broke rules with purpose, not because they wanted to impress a bunch of teenagers. I can’t imagine what this poor woman has been going through and I, like other commenters, have been thinking about her the last few days. I don’t know what a full recovery means with her injury, but I hope life swiftly reaches a state of normalcy.
Am in my 50s. Have been going to gigs since the mid 80s. Punk as a subculture got taken over like 30 years ago. What exists now is kind of a joke. She got hurt because young people have no idea how to slamdance properly. Do it right, no one gets hurt (much).
She got hurt because he decided to stage dive into a crowd at a venue that banned stage diving
Kids today are wrapped in cotton wool. They have no idea how to function properly.
A particular set of zingers on Twitter pointed to it being a “culture” thing and she knew the risks when she attended. How barbaric and totally insensitive, I hope she can reclaim as much feeling and normality from this as possible.
Which is a wild take because it directly goes against punk culture. Catapulting yourself into an UNSUSPECTING crowd ain’t punk, it’s careless and dangerous. Saying “fuck you” in response to fans not feeling safe at shows by this particular band ain’t punk either. Bands like this shouldn’t be in the scene tbh.
>A particular set of zingers on Twitter pointed to it being a “culture” thing and she knew the risks when she attended. Some cultures are just fucking trash. Hardcore is one of them
I’m so happy to hear that but still fuck that man
This poor woman. I remember being 17 at the barricade of a show and the singer for Title Fight was like "come on guys, it's important to hold up the surfers and divers, everyone is trying to have a good time" as 200lb grown ass men flipped their entire body weight onto a row of teenagers. I ended up getting my head crushed up against one of the speakers at the front of the stage and needed to get my head stapled. But "everyone is trying to have a good time"
Oh that is such positive news! I hope her recovery continues to go well. Still hope she sues the fuck out of that band.
I’m so happy to hear this. I love(d) this band and have seen them live so many times. I haven’t listened to their music since I read the story initially. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to again.
I honestly hope this is a wake up call for all other artists who do/are considering doing this kind of thing. Nobody should be slinging their full body weight into a crowd, especially not very tall men with a younger audience. I feel like gently lowering yourself down onto a crowd, if you want to do this, is a pretty simple solution.
A few years ago the band Joyce Manor got absolutely fucking roasted by no-brain punk fans because they went on stage and told the crowd to stop fucking stage diving before someone gets seriously injured. To this day people still talk shit about them because “it’s part of the culture” or whatever. Around the same time I got knocked out and got a concussion from a stage diver at a concert and it was so frustrating seeing friends of mine make excuses for it like “people should expect it at punk shows or don’t go if you can’t” like it was ridiculous for me to want to go see my favorite bands play without sacrificing my personal safety!
I'm so happy for her. I still wholeheartedly believe that her and her family should pursue civil action. I really hope the fans of the band don't try to bully her into thinking otherwise.
The fact the venue had banned stagediving and the band was well aware of it beforehand. Like Bird (beautiful name) I’m so glad you’re okay, Sue them for all they are worth. The band literally is so lucky that she didn’t die. The man is 6’5.
This is amazing news!!!! Hope she sues and they pay every drop that goes into rehabilitation
that's great to hear! that band has a shitty history of crowdsurfering and not listening to their fans,(https://www.reddit.com/r/TrophyEyes/comments/1cqmjhc/well\_this\_shirt\_aged\_like\_milk/) so hopefully they finally stop
So glad to hear that she'll be (somewhat) okay.
Whew! That is wonderful news!
Whew this makes me so glad to hear. Still hope she sues that band member though.
I'm so happy to hear that she'll be making a full recovery! Having such a traumatic experience at such a young age...I can't even imagine. Watching the video was horrific. I understand certain elements of "gig culture" are still around but logically (and especially if you're a man over six feet tall) you'd think one would read the room to see if a stage dive would even be possible with the people nearby (at venues that allow them of course)!
Did she sue? I hope she sues.
Oh my god, this poor woman. I hope she has no complications and completely recovers.
Bit out of the loop here, why is everyone so mad at the singer, wasn’t it an accident?
Thank God! Wishing her the best of recoveries 💜
[удалено]
Or some of us who've been to tons back when the crowd took care of each other and there was community
I feel awful this happened to her, and is it a tragedy and I really hope she fully recovers, but idk why everyone is tearing the band apart. This kind of music always has stage dives, crowd surfing, moshing etc.. I do not understand why people are so mad. Whenever I go to shows and I’m near the stage I already know I gotta protect my head. She seemed caught off guard and things went the worst way possible and it’s in no way her fault but all of these people saying “eW cRoWd surfing/StaGe dIviNg in 2024” are losers lol. It’s a tragic accident but other people are still allowed to have fun at these shows doing what people have been doing for years. We’ve just gotta be there to help each other up.