I believe this line is the most important in the report above: "...although Haien Lee is arguing that the incident was an action between two lovers and not sexual misconduct, **the more important viewpoint in a sexual harassment case is the one of the victim and not the perpetrator**."
It doesn't matter how nontraumatic others find a hickey, *the victim* found it traumatic, and this incident happened after *the victim* asked Haien to stop pursuing him but didn't (according to his own statement). He owes no grace to either her or her career, especially since this entire event is also affecting *his* career (he's having even skating anymore) and he is now seeking psychiatric help.
THIS. I am genuinely appalled at the discourse going on. The victim describes her pressuring him and violating his boundaries on multiple occasions and that this has caused him psychological distress and trauma. Who are you to tell him its not that bad or that he's making a big deal over nothing? Like do you guys even hear yourselves???
Thank you for saying this! The victim is suffering and getting psychiatric help and yet people are still debating the severity of the situation. Not only am I annoyed that the post of her IG screenshots is still up (which even Haein deleted from her stories btw), the discourse making fun of their private conversations is so unnecessary and shows little support for the victim. There has been enough damage done to the victim, and the least we can do is not embarass him further.
I was thinking about asking the poster to take down the screenshots, I feel so bad for the victim! It must be so horrible to have your private conversations shared like that :(
The sport is already so judgemental. I can't imagine how mentally difficult it will be to have to perform for an audience, knowing they were gossiping about your private life. Not to mention, he can't even practice normally right now.
Do you have a link to the statement from C? Or is there a second one? I've seen multiple people comment this, but the statement I saw didn't talk about pressure, boundaries, and the therapy mention seemed to be about the public discourse. Maybe what I read was mistranslated though.
I’m a little confused at this viewpoint. From the statement he never says he was traumatized by the hickey. He just says he was embarrassed. Later when Haein texted him and he realized they were being investigated was when he became distressed. So it sounds more like he was traumatized from the aftermath. I think anyone would be. That also lines up with the screenshots Haein posted.
If that's only what he told KSU, then KSU can't use this to discipline Haein like this and allowed media to release their ruling about her sexual assault. They will be liable for defamation. This article indicates that the minor accused Heain sexual assault or harassment and they made their ruling based on that. There must be one party lying here, either the minor or the KSU.
Heain's screenshots clears her name as sexual predator. Her problem is that she just turned adult one month ago, so she is still potentially liable for her actions depending on police's discretion if this ever goes to court.
People, stop assuming things about a situation and people you don't know. Do you know, that the victim found the hickey traumatic? No. You assume. And your assumption isn't helping anybody. But it might hurt somebody, including the victim.
That's just one party's statement. You need to see Haein's screenshots of their conversation clearly suggested the minor didn't feel uncomfortable afterwards, he actively tried to hide it together with her.
He changed his tone now doesn't mean he tells the truth. The union won't change any ruling based on real evidence. They only take the word of the minor. Haein's career is basically over now.
Damn, I totally see both sides...like, both and everything in-between could be true.
At this point it's just really hard to determine what actually happened.
Unfortunately it seems people are already out and about drawing conclusions based on questionable information/translations
>it’s just really hard to determine what actually happened
This is what I keep thinking too.
These sorts of cases are super complex anyway… and then when you add on that everything this audience is reading is just a translation that some random person (or maybe Google) did… it feels like there is just so much meaning being lost.
The fed is already drawing conclusions, these two skaters seen as rapists by the general public internationally, no one seems to have problems with that. We are just ordinary people who can read and see what their conversation entails. Have some common sense, this girl's life is destroyed, she will be seen as rapist for the rest of her life.
Very few people will read Heain's screenshots. This statement from the fed that they only take the minor's words as evidence is a RED flag, the users here praise this kind of stance show how much figure skaters and fans lack critical thinking ability. The reality is that most of general public will only read the news and believe in the fed ruling as conviction for sexual assault crime, they will see these two girls as rapists and pedophiles. Heain's best option now is legal action against KSU, and prepare to start new life in another country.
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4.
>4. Be civil in discussing skating figures.
> Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
so I have a genuine question. if their genders were reversed would people still be saying this is too much over nothing? if a 19 year old boy had made a 16 year old girl uncomfortable enough that she felt she had to leave the room, would we be excusing the 19 year olds behavior the way we are now? especially if the nature of their relationship wasn't clearly defined between them?
Agree 100%, it’s unsettling to see this brushed off as “just a hickey” especially since the minor is being open about needing psychiatric care to deal with this
Considering people on here freak out at the possibility of 3-4 year age gaps for pairs partnerings when the female is still a minor… I think we all know the answer to that one.
Yikes, I don’t think sexual assault or harassment are okay even if they’re more “minor” acts. It’s causing the victim distress but I guess that’s okay cause it wasn’t sex?? Interesting take.
No absolutely not okay. But I would be skeptical that a 19 year old male would be suspended for 3 years for the same actions. Whether that’s warranted or not I’m not sure what the appropriate sentence should be or the precedent but I am skeptical a male 19 year old Olympic medal hopeful would be treated the same. Again, not saying it’s right, just that there does seem to be some difference. I don’t really know what makes sense in terms of punishments since I don’t have anything to compare to for similar suspensions.
But the bigger issue I see that doesn’t make sense is the response to Athlete B. A year long suspension does seem really extreme given the murky facts of the case, especially if she never directly sent any inappropriate photos to the minor. I don’t see a male athlete getting that sort of suspension.
Yeah I’m not saying it’s right obviously and that it shouldn’t be dealt with in ways to protect the minor, but I am extremely skeptical that a star male athlete would be suspended for 3 years and have his career ended and that the less famous girl would be believed and supported by the governing body. Absolutely minors should believed and action taken, I just would be shocked if a male athlete who’s a strong contender for an Olympic medal would be treated in the same way. Doesn’t excuse it, but I agree that it feels hypocritical. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have consequences for female offenders but I think it’s worthy of pointing out the differences in typical response. At the very least hopefully this will set a new precedent. Although I do still think the retrial is warranted for due process sake and given the current facts as presented it feels that athlete B was absolutely treated unfairly and in a way I’d never imagine a male athlete to be treated.
I'm already being downvoted on another comment for saying that if the genders were reversed girl's complaint would likely be disregarded. I'd love to be wrong and for all complaints from skaters to be handled fairly and at the same standard of strictness independent of gender or how rich/connected their families are, but skating federations don't encourage optimism in me in general, Hopefully this would set a precedent and make an impression on other skaters and we will have less cases where younger skaters are told be keep things quiet so that someone who harassed them could chase their dream.
People are saying all this "just over a hickey" - this isn't about a hickey, this is about an older senior skater putting a younger skater in a position where they felt uncomfortable and shocked and triggered a series of events that lead to an underaged skater receiving psychiatric care. We shouldn't be painting Haein as some sort of evil bad intentioned child molester because that's not the case but it's important to keep in mind that her actions have clearly negatively affected this 16 year old.
Also this isn't about how we think we would feel, this is about how this 16 year old experienced the situation and clearly it had a harmful effect on him.
If this issue had been handled internally instead of publicly would that minor still need psychiatric care? Even though the incident was her fault, I don’t feel it’s right to put all the blame on a 19-year-old for the way this situation ended up.
Personally, with how the Korean media is, I don't think this case would have been able to handle 100% internally. And while KSU could have done things better, KBS's actions didn't help either.
Yeah and the so called ‘older senior’ is just three years older and clearly equally immature based on the text chain we saw. You don’t miraculously achieve psychological maturation once you’re legally adult, that’s why romeo and juliet law exist.
Just something I’ve been thinking about regarding the age gap: Not to normalise it but I think the developmental age can be very different from your actual age when you’re growing up and that’s why you see relationships among minors with a weird age gap from time to time. But then one party ages out and it’s incredibly problematic all of the sudden which can be hard to understand and process at that age I imagine. That’s why there are Romeo and Juliet clauses in many countries. Just reading those messages between them I got the impression that Haein is much more on the immature side for her age which makes sense given the sheltered upbringing she and many top skaters have. That doesn’t excuse anything since she’s legally an adult now but just for context: she turned 19 exactly four weeks before the training camp began. If the camp had started in early April instead of mid May she would have still been considered a minor. Unfortunately, it’s not like there is this switch that turns in your brain developmentally the night you turn a legal adult. Maybe just something to keep in mind because I feel like a lot of people judge her by the standard of an adult developmentally.
A lot of users here who are very loud about vilifying Haein are probably teenagers themselves, who have no life experience and see everything as black and white.
not to excuse this literally at all but for context sake and within the topic of development, i think in a regular world, there is a massive life experience difference between someone who is 19 and 15 (?) but if they are both maybe home schooled or tutored or something, existing in the same strange skating lifestyle and environment, they might feel more at a similar stage of life, experience and maturity. i feel like this isn’t totally uncommon in skating even if it is an issue. maybe this case will raise the bar and set a precedent for people to be more responsible about their relationships. lord knows the sport needs it.
What a super mess! we have bits and pieces of everything we dont know the full truth, just various parts of the truth. There is a very young victim, who may be ambivalent about being in a relationship, who may or may not have overbearing parents who are against the relationship, who probably cant say no to the cool and older woman superstar figure skater, because FOMO and its just great for his ego for her to be chasing him. This poor kid may or may not be ready for a relationship and even if he truly wanted it, he is not mature and independent enough to tell his parents to bugger off if they were against it.
As for Skater A, what horrendously bad judgment. What did she have in common with a 16 year old? Why throw away everything she worked for to chase aftr a kid who is not ready for a relationship? Why open herself to criticism in the korean fed? She rendered herself expendable to the fed when there are less problematic younger skaters around who are already scoring better than her. I dont think she is necessarily a bad person, because obviously nobody knows the whole truth. I hope everybody involved gets some help to process this.
It is so mentally exhausting to open up my reddit feed every day to an update about this case right at the top.
I hope that everyone is doing well mentally and takes a step back from this community when they need to.
Funny that KSU are so quick to crucify a women skater for making a hicky on her boyfriend, and so reluctant to take any action on multiple sexual abuse allegations against coaches from women skaters. Truly a misogynistic country.
Does anyone want the opinion of a former child protection worker?
Imo, Kfed's decision is a good precedent to set. Zero tolerance for this sort of thing. This sort of consequence does send a message that there will be no tolerance of this, and there should be no tolerance of this. That's for the safety of every skater, much the way school teachers and coaches and volunteers with you have rules to not cross boundaries. If they do, they get fired *even if* there was no harm done. Because it's better safe than sorry.
No, she's not an irredeemable pedophile who can never improve. But she crossed boundaries that are there to protect skaters from abuse and from accusations, and so she's facing the consequences. She's immature, but no, they shouldn't go lax on her because her feelings are hurt and she's scared. Her leaking the texts, while understandable on a human level, doesn't exonerate her--if anything, it demonstrates that she's not a safe person for the minor to be around. She doesn't have to be a diabolical monster for this to be true.
I see the "high school" comparison tossed about. I used to work in a high school. If this were a high school, the decision would be the same. She would be the one whose classes would be changed to avoid him even if it disrupts her studies and honor roll, or who would be expelled, because he's the one who needs protecting. That's a consequence. By all means offer her mental support and help, but keep the consequence.
You can't have them both at the same camp anymore. You have to prioritize the victim even if the perpetrator is also a suffering kid. There is no magic zero harm solution wherein everyone carries on as normal.
People reading into the texts and claiming to have psychoanalytical insight into what truly scared him or how he really feels are way, way overstepping. The fed has more insight than you do. They actually know these people.
And yes, the Fed is covering their own \*ss. But let's say they give this a pass and then a 19 year old boy goes on to coerce a 15 year old girl and it's even more blatantly violent--what happens then? They have to lay down a hard line now. Most often feds go in the other direction of protecting the person crossing boundaries over the person hurt, and people bemoan that, but now when a fed takes action, people are hemming and hawing?
The best thing you can do, if you actually want to prioritize both of their wellbeings, is leave them both alone, respect the decision, and not attempt to disregard claims of harm or speculate your perceptions on it.
agree. the speculation is unhelpful and a violation of their privacy to some degree. it’s also not helping the victim at all esp because i’m sure he’s already struggling with this being so public.
i absolutely think that ksu is setting a good precedent with a 0 tolerance policy. tbh i am sure this isn’t an uncommon occurrence among the sport, and many have gotten away with it. but i hope it raises the bar for everyone and safety improves.
i sincerely hope that haein learns from this experience and treats people better, and doesn’t hurt anyone else going forward.
This. 100%.
And while I read how KSU should have dealt with this privately, there would have been people who would want KSU to be transparent with the details of what happened. And even if Korean skating fed tried to dealt with it privately, the way how Korean media is, they would have been the ones who would uncover the details or try to attempt to see what happened. We see this all the time with Kpop idols / celebrities.
Yeah exactly. Privacy and transparency are both needs that sometimes conflict and the only way to idealistically maintain both is if people trust institutions which they have good reason not to. It just sucks.
This is so messy and should have never been so public, especially with a minor involved. I hope the victim gets all the help and support he needs and isn’t harassed by the public over this.
Also hate to say it, but a 3 year ban over a hickey feels like scapegoating with all the information we have about what happened.
Respectfully, no. The hickey was the end result of an older and more powerful skater bullying someone into breaking a litany of KSU training camp rules and breaking the law, while also sexually harassing him. Parents trust their kids with a LOT when they turn them over to KSU for camps and competitions. Anything other than severe punishment from them would’ve made it apparent to both skaters and parents that ensuring everyone has a safe training environment actually isn’t a priority during these events.
Woah hold on there. Those are a lot of serious accusations which none of have actually been mentioned in the statements from the athletes. There was no accusation of bullying the skater C to visit her, it actually doesn’t even say that Skater C felt sexually harassed (they only confirmed that there was a sexual act). If you read the statement and the chat messages, Skater C was concerned about the hickey showing a mark and could expose their “secret relationship” and the part about therapy refers to the publicity and investigation of the whole ordeal. I would really caution about adding extra details which have not been released since it’s how misinformation spreads.
Look, the formal statement that C released states that he told Haein that he didn’t want to continue their relationship, that she continued to press on the issue, that he then said yes, and that she then gave him a hickey after inviting him to the room. After he saw the hickey he was disturbed and left.
People can make all sorts of things up to the people who are making them feel uncomfortable to avoid further confrontation. What’s important here is that C has given a formal statement that Haein not only was persistent in her attempts to get together with him again but also that he was incredibly uncomfortable with the situation.
Those text messages actually provide important context to the statement. If you read them you will see the reason that skater c said they “didn’t want to continue the relationship”. People are making the assumption it was because of the sexual action but it was because they didn’t want their relationship found out at the camp and they said they could resume it when back in Korea. He also goes on several times to say he loves her. So it’s pretty clear he wasn’t uncomfortable with her or the act, he was uncomfortable because of having to hide his relationship with her and having to hide a hickey while training. The lawyer is not wrong saying skater C felt uncomfortable or said to end the relationship, they just left out the reasons why they did, leaving people to make those assumption.
I don’t think that context actually matters considering the age gap at play, the fact they were both separated by extreme distances from their parents, the power dynamics involved in her being both older and way more famous, and the fact that as an adult she had even more of an obligation to follow and understand the importance of following camp rules.
Is the age gap that bad? Who is to say? Do we expel kids from school because a junior and senior decided to date? Many states have Romeo and Juliet laws to protect people in these cases and many states find a difference from 2-5 years acceptable, up to 10 in Utah (yikes). Would I personally want my child in that situation? No. Does that mean others who make that decision wrong? That's their choice. It's more of a ethical dilemma which never have just one right answer as everyone will evaluate it different based on their own morals.
Power dynamics? Maybe? But being successful at the sport isn't really the same power dynamic as a coach or teacher. Is she popular? Skating is such niche sport, female Korean athletes are coming and going all the time. Let's not pretend she's some global celebrity on the level as Yuzuru or Yuna Kim. I don't know if I would consider someone with 30k Instagram followers to be so famous that they would hold such a position of power over someone. So again, this is more of a subjective opinion and not so clear cut as a student/teacher relationship.
As for age. Yes, she's older. And technically an "adult" by a month, but just because she turned of age doesn't magically turn her into some all-knowing, mature person that makes only well thought out decisions. Let's be real here, she's still an immature child. People are acting like she's some evil preparator that is hunting kids to groom them which is just insane really.
Basically, what I'm getting at is not everything is black and white. It's easier when there are laws to apply since they can be used as a moral framework. But when no laws are broken we start to rely on what our personal morals and beliefs are to judge other's decisions and it's easy to judge from the outside.
Sometimes you just need to look at it from the perspective of the people who are in that situation. They're two immature teenagers who believe they are in love and are hiding their "forbidden love" from their disapproving parents. It's literally Romeo and Juliet story which people love to romanticize and make movies out of, heck we even see lots of R&J programs every season. How convenient that people forget that Juliet was 13 and Romeo was 16. Sure you can take the approach that Romeo was a preparator, using his family's influence to groom Juliet. Personally, I just see it as 2 naïve kids way in over their heads because they lived sheltered lives and just don't know any better.
I don’t think Haein is some evil groomer, but I do think it’s telling that a 15yo boy had more sense than she did.
And regardless of whether she’s barely an adult or not, she still needs to be aware of her actions and the laws and rules around them. Not only was her behavior inappropriate from the standpoint that she was pestering someone into doing things they were uncomfortably with, but she also consented to the rules of the camp, broke them, and encouraged another younger and very impressionable skater to break them with her.
> she was pestering someone into doing things they were uncomfortably with
There is no evidence of this yet. This is just people making assumptions. What we know from the facts that have been presented is that he consented to it but we do not know who had the original idea or how it was brought up. We only know that he was a willing participant. I say "willing participant" because again we don't know if he asked for it or just consented to it or how much discussion there was before the act or what led to the act. There has also been no evidence that he was uncomfortable with the act, but we do know he was uncomfortable with the visible mark as it could "expose their relationship". We really just don't have enough information at this time to know more facts and anything else is speculation based on what we and others perceive the situation to be. I think it's wrong to apply labels such as bullying, abuse, etc when we really don't have any factual information to make those judgements yet.
Did she break camp rules? Sure. Does that mean she should be suspended for 3 years, ending her career and essentially ruining her life. No. Unless more information comes out, this is just based on what we know now.
He didn’t consent. You cannot consent if you don’t know what you’re consenting to.
The statement by C states that he was uncomfortable with the hickey itself and promptly left the room. Only later in the messages did he address the potential of getting caught.
And idk man, maybe if you don’t want to lose your spot on a national team you should just follow the rules. I mean if I lost my job for drinking while at a conference and engaging in lewd behavior with my coworkers, no one would bat an eye even if it would still ruin my life and career.
Korea has exceptions built into their age of consent laws (aka Romeo and Juliet laws). This case falls outside those exceptions. Granted, just outside, but outside nonetheless.
Romeo is never given an age in the play (though 14-16 is most likely the intent) and it is not about what you say it is about either. It's about two kids in a war situation who choose love over fighting and in doing so save their city, but the war kills them before they get to enjoy peace.
Also, with this and your above arguments about the texts proving something--please don't do this. The psychoanalysis of these texts and assumptions crosses a line. Those arguments are very familiar and not in a good way. He's said he's traumatized. We don't need to dissect the hows and whys.
Signed, someone who used to do child protection and also has taught classes on Romeo and Juliet.
I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be severe punishment. But I am wondering how they determine level of punishment and precedent for this. Like is there some sort of guideline? Less for athlete A, but athlete B’s punishment does feel overly harsh and I’m unsure what to compare it to.
Well she also let C into her room, facilitated underaged drinking, broke no drinking training rules, and harassed C. I think she’s lucky it’s only the year, personally, considering there was zero history with C or reason for her to insert herself into the situation. If anything, she should’ve been C’s advocate, and it’s disappointing that she witnessed what was happening and didn’t step in.
Okay I guess I didn’t get those parts of the fact? Where was it stated that she let C into her room and that she present during the harassment? Because my understanding was that she took a possibly pic of A that was then sent to C. If she actually sent it to C from her own phone yeah that problematic but I don’t even think that was what was reported?
Where in the KSU statement does it say she sent it to athlete C? I thought it only said she took “sexually offensive” pics of athlete A (which seems to have been consensual between adults?).
I did. I didn’t see anything about sending pics to athlete C. Which is why I was asking you what section you are referring to? If you are accusing athlete B of something I think we should at least be able to point to the official statement to show me where it says that.
Links to the official KSU statement are here, as well as a summary of the actions which includes that B shared indecent photos with C
https://www.reddit.com/r/FigureSkating/s/balmupt8uQ
Additionally B put out a statement saying that the KSU accusations are wrong and that the photos she took were neither inappropriate nor were they sent to C.
Will be interesting to see what her retrial in particular turns up however as it stands, KSU is banning her in part due to their belief that she did take inappropriate photos and disseminate them to C.
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4.
>4. Be civil in discussing skating figures.
Do not speculate on the identity of victims of sexual harassment or assault. Do not name minor victims. Thanks.
> Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4.
>4. Be civil in discussing skating figures.
> Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4.
>4. Be civil in discussing skating figures.
Do not name victims of sexual harassment and assault unless they themselves come forward.
> Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
People on here profusely shaming anyone who dares saying "it's not clear from the statement whether victim C was traumatised by the hickey OR by the whole suspension thing" need to calm the hell down. It is a FACT, unless the translations were wrong, that it is unclear.
None of us (or maybe a small, stupid minority) are saying the relationship was healthy or that victim C is making anything up. I have never in my life not believed a victim and will always stand for them and I sure hope it's the case of everyone here. But I'm still able to read an article without drawing additional, unnecessary conclusions. It's for victim C to share that information anyway, if and when he feels safe and appropriate to so do.
The story is bad enough, there's no need to extrapolate. The law doesn't guess or read between the lines.
Three young lives potentially ruined over a hickey.
I don’t know what my teenage self would have done if my first forays into relationships and sexuality were made public and ridiculed all over the world like this. How do you recover from something like that?
I think it goes back to something that came up with Valieva a lot: if someone is skating as a senior skater their misconduct has to be treated as a misconduct of an adult. If you are in a training camp and you know there are certain rules and you are being supervised by people who are responsible for upholding those rules and then you still chose to break a bunch of those rules it's can't be treated as "teenage exploration". It's not a summer holiday, it's not their personal time, they were basically at a work event arranged by their employer, they broke the rules imposed by the employer (and possibly the law, I'm now too confused by all the versions of the to understand for sure), the employer is penalizing them. The public spectacle around it is unfortunate but it is a big story for the sport.
I feel for the girls in some way as for any young person who ruined their life for something stupid and easily avoidable but they have to be held responsible.
Firstly, it is possible that there were other things that went on considering that we didn’t hear anything about the photographs or drinking from Victim C. He may have released only what he was comfortable with the public knowing.
Secondly, even if details weren’t left out, it wasn’t just a hickey. It was an entire series of events and behaviors from Haein that led a younger boy to feel pressured into actions and a relationship he was uncomfortable with.
It’s unclear when he began to seek psychological treatment but my understanding is he sought it even before it was public. So these events were causing him such psychological distress that he couldn’t even train just because of the nature of them. Then to make matters worse, Haein publicly identified him and shared their personal messages without his consent.
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4.
>4. Be civil in discussing skating figures.
> Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4.
>4. Be civil in discussing skating figures.
> Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
honestly if u imagine urself as a 19 year old and then look at a 16 year old, ur a whole ass adult and u see a high school kid, u should feel an enormous gap 😭😭 like i would NOT be interested in a child at the age of 19, that’s weird behavior, imagine the freshman dating the senior stories we all cringe at, this is the same thing
I doubt it. They also said if she’s successful with the appeal the ban will be reduced to 1-2 years. So sounds like she’s definitely out for the season.
This is a wake up call for parents, teenager children who have relationships with any age gap, there will always be a situation where one of them becomes a young adult and the other one still being minor. Anything that happen between them could get into an extremely messy situation, even just over a hickey. Those over controlling parents are the kind of family who need to be very careful to deal with.
When will you guys stop acting like this is some high school drama, this situation is messy and probably was messy way before it blew up and nobody got punished. The issue here is this happened at a WORK event. I have a level of sympathy for Haein but God, this is peak fuck around and find out. Drinking at a work event, giving alcohol to a minor co-worker, inviting him to your room and getting sexual with him, all of which go very much against the basic formal and informal guidlines and policies... even the whole debate about consent and age aside (which is a crazy sentence), this would get you fired by any employer anywhere. Having talent and working in an unusual field doesn't make it okay to behave like a wild animal at work.
So did the minor, if it was consensual, he should be punished as well, the reason he got off lightly is that he claimed it was sexual assault. This kind serious charge needs to be proved with police involved. Real evidence needs to be gathered, not just his words. Heain can't do much to defend herself now other than posting those real conversations with the minor after this incident. she just turned adult one month before the incident, the minor will be legal to have sex after 5 months. if she sues this minor for defamation, she probably will lose because this is borderline illegal for them to have sex at this age in South Korea. It is under police discretion. Heain is stupid to trust their relationship and her stupidity led to this situation that her life in South Korea could be destroyed by this.
Friendly reminder: do not name the victim in your comments. Comments naming C will be removed.
I believe this line is the most important in the report above: "...although Haien Lee is arguing that the incident was an action between two lovers and not sexual misconduct, **the more important viewpoint in a sexual harassment case is the one of the victim and not the perpetrator**." It doesn't matter how nontraumatic others find a hickey, *the victim* found it traumatic, and this incident happened after *the victim* asked Haien to stop pursuing him but didn't (according to his own statement). He owes no grace to either her or her career, especially since this entire event is also affecting *his* career (he's having even skating anymore) and he is now seeking psychiatric help.
THIS. I am genuinely appalled at the discourse going on. The victim describes her pressuring him and violating his boundaries on multiple occasions and that this has caused him psychological distress and trauma. Who are you to tell him its not that bad or that he's making a big deal over nothing? Like do you guys even hear yourselves???
Thank you for saying this! The victim is suffering and getting psychiatric help and yet people are still debating the severity of the situation. Not only am I annoyed that the post of her IG screenshots is still up (which even Haein deleted from her stories btw), the discourse making fun of their private conversations is so unnecessary and shows little support for the victim. There has been enough damage done to the victim, and the least we can do is not embarass him further.
I was thinking about asking the poster to take down the screenshots, I feel so bad for the victim! It must be so horrible to have your private conversations shared like that :(
The sport is already so judgemental. I can't imagine how mentally difficult it will be to have to perform for an audience, knowing they were gossiping about your private life. Not to mention, he can't even practice normally right now.
Do you have a link to the statement from C? Or is there a second one? I've seen multiple people comment this, but the statement I saw didn't talk about pressure, boundaries, and the therapy mention seemed to be about the public discourse. Maybe what I read was mistranslated though.
I’m a little confused at this viewpoint. From the statement he never says he was traumatized by the hickey. He just says he was embarrassed. Later when Haein texted him and he realized they were being investigated was when he became distressed. So it sounds more like he was traumatized from the aftermath. I think anyone would be. That also lines up with the screenshots Haein posted.
Exactly, it’s like they are reading what they want it to say, rather than what it actually says.
If that's only what he told KSU, then KSU can't use this to discipline Haein like this and allowed media to release their ruling about her sexual assault. They will be liable for defamation. This article indicates that the minor accused Heain sexual assault or harassment and they made their ruling based on that. There must be one party lying here, either the minor or the KSU. Heain's screenshots clears her name as sexual predator. Her problem is that she just turned adult one month ago, so she is still potentially liable for her actions depending on police's discretion if this ever goes to court.
[удалено]
People, stop assuming things about a situation and people you don't know. Do you know, that the victim found the hickey traumatic? No. You assume. And your assumption isn't helping anybody. But it might hurt somebody, including the victim.
That's just one party's statement. You need to see Haein's screenshots of their conversation clearly suggested the minor didn't feel uncomfortable afterwards, he actively tried to hide it together with her. He changed his tone now doesn't mean he tells the truth. The union won't change any ruling based on real evidence. They only take the word of the minor. Haein's career is basically over now.
Damn, I totally see both sides...like, both and everything in-between could be true. At this point it's just really hard to determine what actually happened. Unfortunately it seems people are already out and about drawing conclusions based on questionable information/translations
>it’s just really hard to determine what actually happened This is what I keep thinking too. These sorts of cases are super complex anyway… and then when you add on that everything this audience is reading is just a translation that some random person (or maybe Google) did… it feels like there is just so much meaning being lost.
The fed is already drawing conclusions, these two skaters seen as rapists by the general public internationally, no one seems to have problems with that. We are just ordinary people who can read and see what their conversation entails. Have some common sense, this girl's life is destroyed, she will be seen as rapist for the rest of her life. Very few people will read Heain's screenshots. This statement from the fed that they only take the minor's words as evidence is a RED flag, the users here praise this kind of stance show how much figure skaters and fans lack critical thinking ability. The reality is that most of general public will only read the news and believe in the fed ruling as conviction for sexual assault crime, they will see these two girls as rapists and pedophiles. Heain's best option now is legal action against KSU, and prepare to start new life in another country.
[удалено]
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4. >4. Be civil in discussing skating figures. > Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
so I have a genuine question. if their genders were reversed would people still be saying this is too much over nothing? if a 19 year old boy had made a 16 year old girl uncomfortable enough that she felt she had to leave the room, would we be excusing the 19 year olds behavior the way we are now? especially if the nature of their relationship wasn't clearly defined between them?
Agree 100%, it’s unsettling to see this brushed off as “just a hickey” especially since the minor is being open about needing psychiatric care to deal with this
Considering people on here freak out at the possibility of 3-4 year age gaps for pairs partnerings when the female is still a minor… I think we all know the answer to that one.
That is because we know for a fact that men are capable of commiting much more henious sexual crime, and i mean rape not a fucking hickey.
Yikes, I don’t think sexual assault or harassment are okay even if they’re more “minor” acts. It’s causing the victim distress but I guess that’s okay cause it wasn’t sex?? Interesting take.
No absolutely not okay. But I would be skeptical that a 19 year old male would be suspended for 3 years for the same actions. Whether that’s warranted or not I’m not sure what the appropriate sentence should be or the precedent but I am skeptical a male 19 year old Olympic medal hopeful would be treated the same. Again, not saying it’s right, just that there does seem to be some difference. I don’t really know what makes sense in terms of punishments since I don’t have anything to compare to for similar suspensions. But the bigger issue I see that doesn’t make sense is the response to Athlete B. A year long suspension does seem really extreme given the murky facts of the case, especially if she never directly sent any inappropriate photos to the minor. I don’t see a male athlete getting that sort of suspension.
Personally I think complaints from a girl would be even more likely disregarded, unfortunately.
Yeah I’m not saying it’s right obviously and that it shouldn’t be dealt with in ways to protect the minor, but I am extremely skeptical that a star male athlete would be suspended for 3 years and have his career ended and that the less famous girl would be believed and supported by the governing body. Absolutely minors should believed and action taken, I just would be shocked if a male athlete who’s a strong contender for an Olympic medal would be treated in the same way. Doesn’t excuse it, but I agree that it feels hypocritical. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have consequences for female offenders but I think it’s worthy of pointing out the differences in typical response. At the very least hopefully this will set a new precedent. Although I do still think the retrial is warranted for due process sake and given the current facts as presented it feels that athlete B was absolutely treated unfairly and in a way I’d never imagine a male athlete to be treated.
I'm already being downvoted on another comment for saying that if the genders were reversed girl's complaint would likely be disregarded. I'd love to be wrong and for all complaints from skaters to be handled fairly and at the same standard of strictness independent of gender or how rich/connected their families are, but skating federations don't encourage optimism in me in general, Hopefully this would set a precedent and make an impression on other skaters and we will have less cases where younger skaters are told be keep things quiet so that someone who harassed them could chase their dream.
Nope. They’d be calling him a pedo/rapist and demanding he be banned.
If she'd gone into the male dorm I can guess what some posters who live under a bridge would say about what she was asking for...
Are you seriously suggesting that there is no gender difference in sexual abuse cases?
yes. wtf.
People are saying all this "just over a hickey" - this isn't about a hickey, this is about an older senior skater putting a younger skater in a position where they felt uncomfortable and shocked and triggered a series of events that lead to an underaged skater receiving psychiatric care. We shouldn't be painting Haein as some sort of evil bad intentioned child molester because that's not the case but it's important to keep in mind that her actions have clearly negatively affected this 16 year old. Also this isn't about how we think we would feel, this is about how this 16 year old experienced the situation and clearly it had a harmful effect on him.
If this issue had been handled internally instead of publicly would that minor still need psychiatric care? Even though the incident was her fault, I don’t feel it’s right to put all the blame on a 19-year-old for the way this situation ended up.
Personally, with how the Korean media is, I don't think this case would have been able to handle 100% internally. And while KSU could have done things better, KBS's actions didn't help either.
Well she’s the one who identified him for the public.
i’m sure the public nature of this hasn’t helped. i’ll say that.
Yeah and the so called ‘older senior’ is just three years older and clearly equally immature based on the text chain we saw. You don’t miraculously achieve psychological maturation once you’re legally adult, that’s why romeo and juliet law exist.
Just something I’ve been thinking about regarding the age gap: Not to normalise it but I think the developmental age can be very different from your actual age when you’re growing up and that’s why you see relationships among minors with a weird age gap from time to time. But then one party ages out and it’s incredibly problematic all of the sudden which can be hard to understand and process at that age I imagine. That’s why there are Romeo and Juliet clauses in many countries. Just reading those messages between them I got the impression that Haein is much more on the immature side for her age which makes sense given the sheltered upbringing she and many top skaters have. That doesn’t excuse anything since she’s legally an adult now but just for context: she turned 19 exactly four weeks before the training camp began. If the camp had started in early April instead of mid May she would have still been considered a minor. Unfortunately, it’s not like there is this switch that turns in your brain developmentally the night you turn a legal adult. Maybe just something to keep in mind because I feel like a lot of people judge her by the standard of an adult developmentally.
A lot of users here who are very loud about vilifying Haein are probably teenagers themselves, who have no life experience and see everything as black and white.
not to excuse this literally at all but for context sake and within the topic of development, i think in a regular world, there is a massive life experience difference between someone who is 19 and 15 (?) but if they are both maybe home schooled or tutored or something, existing in the same strange skating lifestyle and environment, they might feel more at a similar stage of life, experience and maturity. i feel like this isn’t totally uncommon in skating even if it is an issue. maybe this case will raise the bar and set a precedent for people to be more responsible about their relationships. lord knows the sport needs it.
What a super mess! we have bits and pieces of everything we dont know the full truth, just various parts of the truth. There is a very young victim, who may be ambivalent about being in a relationship, who may or may not have overbearing parents who are against the relationship, who probably cant say no to the cool and older woman superstar figure skater, because FOMO and its just great for his ego for her to be chasing him. This poor kid may or may not be ready for a relationship and even if he truly wanted it, he is not mature and independent enough to tell his parents to bugger off if they were against it. As for Skater A, what horrendously bad judgment. What did she have in common with a 16 year old? Why throw away everything she worked for to chase aftr a kid who is not ready for a relationship? Why open herself to criticism in the korean fed? She rendered herself expendable to the fed when there are less problematic younger skaters around who are already scoring better than her. I dont think she is necessarily a bad person, because obviously nobody knows the whole truth. I hope everybody involved gets some help to process this.
It is so mentally exhausting to open up my reddit feed every day to an update about this case right at the top. I hope that everyone is doing well mentally and takes a step back from this community when they need to.
Funny that KSU are so quick to crucify a women skater for making a hicky on her boyfriend, and so reluctant to take any action on multiple sexual abuse allegations against coaches from women skaters. Truly a misogynistic country.
Does anyone want the opinion of a former child protection worker? Imo, Kfed's decision is a good precedent to set. Zero tolerance for this sort of thing. This sort of consequence does send a message that there will be no tolerance of this, and there should be no tolerance of this. That's for the safety of every skater, much the way school teachers and coaches and volunteers with you have rules to not cross boundaries. If they do, they get fired *even if* there was no harm done. Because it's better safe than sorry. No, she's not an irredeemable pedophile who can never improve. But she crossed boundaries that are there to protect skaters from abuse and from accusations, and so she's facing the consequences. She's immature, but no, they shouldn't go lax on her because her feelings are hurt and she's scared. Her leaking the texts, while understandable on a human level, doesn't exonerate her--if anything, it demonstrates that she's not a safe person for the minor to be around. She doesn't have to be a diabolical monster for this to be true. I see the "high school" comparison tossed about. I used to work in a high school. If this were a high school, the decision would be the same. She would be the one whose classes would be changed to avoid him even if it disrupts her studies and honor roll, or who would be expelled, because he's the one who needs protecting. That's a consequence. By all means offer her mental support and help, but keep the consequence. You can't have them both at the same camp anymore. You have to prioritize the victim even if the perpetrator is also a suffering kid. There is no magic zero harm solution wherein everyone carries on as normal. People reading into the texts and claiming to have psychoanalytical insight into what truly scared him or how he really feels are way, way overstepping. The fed has more insight than you do. They actually know these people. And yes, the Fed is covering their own \*ss. But let's say they give this a pass and then a 19 year old boy goes on to coerce a 15 year old girl and it's even more blatantly violent--what happens then? They have to lay down a hard line now. Most often feds go in the other direction of protecting the person crossing boundaries over the person hurt, and people bemoan that, but now when a fed takes action, people are hemming and hawing? The best thing you can do, if you actually want to prioritize both of their wellbeings, is leave them both alone, respect the decision, and not attempt to disregard claims of harm or speculate your perceptions on it.
agree. the speculation is unhelpful and a violation of their privacy to some degree. it’s also not helping the victim at all esp because i’m sure he’s already struggling with this being so public. i absolutely think that ksu is setting a good precedent with a 0 tolerance policy. tbh i am sure this isn’t an uncommon occurrence among the sport, and many have gotten away with it. but i hope it raises the bar for everyone and safety improves. i sincerely hope that haein learns from this experience and treats people better, and doesn’t hurt anyone else going forward.
This. 100%. And while I read how KSU should have dealt with this privately, there would have been people who would want KSU to be transparent with the details of what happened. And even if Korean skating fed tried to dealt with it privately, the way how Korean media is, they would have been the ones who would uncover the details or try to attempt to see what happened. We see this all the time with Kpop idols / celebrities.
Yeah exactly. Privacy and transparency are both needs that sometimes conflict and the only way to idealistically maintain both is if people trust institutions which they have good reason not to. It just sucks.
I agree with you!
Probably the most rational and balanced comment I’ve read Herre today. Thanks for offering it.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, I agree 100%
Best take I've read about this case, thank you
Thank you.
Thank you so much for this. I agree with you 100%.
she’s fucked.
This is so messy and should have never been so public, especially with a minor involved. I hope the victim gets all the help and support he needs and isn’t harassed by the public over this. Also hate to say it, but a 3 year ban over a hickey feels like scapegoating with all the information we have about what happened.
Respectfully, no. The hickey was the end result of an older and more powerful skater bullying someone into breaking a litany of KSU training camp rules and breaking the law, while also sexually harassing him. Parents trust their kids with a LOT when they turn them over to KSU for camps and competitions. Anything other than severe punishment from them would’ve made it apparent to both skaters and parents that ensuring everyone has a safe training environment actually isn’t a priority during these events.
Woah hold on there. Those are a lot of serious accusations which none of have actually been mentioned in the statements from the athletes. There was no accusation of bullying the skater C to visit her, it actually doesn’t even say that Skater C felt sexually harassed (they only confirmed that there was a sexual act). If you read the statement and the chat messages, Skater C was concerned about the hickey showing a mark and could expose their “secret relationship” and the part about therapy refers to the publicity and investigation of the whole ordeal. I would really caution about adding extra details which have not been released since it’s how misinformation spreads.
Look, the formal statement that C released states that he told Haein that he didn’t want to continue their relationship, that she continued to press on the issue, that he then said yes, and that she then gave him a hickey after inviting him to the room. After he saw the hickey he was disturbed and left. People can make all sorts of things up to the people who are making them feel uncomfortable to avoid further confrontation. What’s important here is that C has given a formal statement that Haein not only was persistent in her attempts to get together with him again but also that he was incredibly uncomfortable with the situation.
Those text messages actually provide important context to the statement. If you read them you will see the reason that skater c said they “didn’t want to continue the relationship”. People are making the assumption it was because of the sexual action but it was because they didn’t want their relationship found out at the camp and they said they could resume it when back in Korea. He also goes on several times to say he loves her. So it’s pretty clear he wasn’t uncomfortable with her or the act, he was uncomfortable because of having to hide his relationship with her and having to hide a hickey while training. The lawyer is not wrong saying skater C felt uncomfortable or said to end the relationship, they just left out the reasons why they did, leaving people to make those assumption.
I don’t think that context actually matters considering the age gap at play, the fact they were both separated by extreme distances from their parents, the power dynamics involved in her being both older and way more famous, and the fact that as an adult she had even more of an obligation to follow and understand the importance of following camp rules.
Is the age gap that bad? Who is to say? Do we expel kids from school because a junior and senior decided to date? Many states have Romeo and Juliet laws to protect people in these cases and many states find a difference from 2-5 years acceptable, up to 10 in Utah (yikes). Would I personally want my child in that situation? No. Does that mean others who make that decision wrong? That's their choice. It's more of a ethical dilemma which never have just one right answer as everyone will evaluate it different based on their own morals. Power dynamics? Maybe? But being successful at the sport isn't really the same power dynamic as a coach or teacher. Is she popular? Skating is such niche sport, female Korean athletes are coming and going all the time. Let's not pretend she's some global celebrity on the level as Yuzuru or Yuna Kim. I don't know if I would consider someone with 30k Instagram followers to be so famous that they would hold such a position of power over someone. So again, this is more of a subjective opinion and not so clear cut as a student/teacher relationship. As for age. Yes, she's older. And technically an "adult" by a month, but just because she turned of age doesn't magically turn her into some all-knowing, mature person that makes only well thought out decisions. Let's be real here, she's still an immature child. People are acting like she's some evil preparator that is hunting kids to groom them which is just insane really. Basically, what I'm getting at is not everything is black and white. It's easier when there are laws to apply since they can be used as a moral framework. But when no laws are broken we start to rely on what our personal morals and beliefs are to judge other's decisions and it's easy to judge from the outside. Sometimes you just need to look at it from the perspective of the people who are in that situation. They're two immature teenagers who believe they are in love and are hiding their "forbidden love" from their disapproving parents. It's literally Romeo and Juliet story which people love to romanticize and make movies out of, heck we even see lots of R&J programs every season. How convenient that people forget that Juliet was 13 and Romeo was 16. Sure you can take the approach that Romeo was a preparator, using his family's influence to groom Juliet. Personally, I just see it as 2 naïve kids way in over their heads because they lived sheltered lives and just don't know any better.
I don’t think Haein is some evil groomer, but I do think it’s telling that a 15yo boy had more sense than she did. And regardless of whether she’s barely an adult or not, she still needs to be aware of her actions and the laws and rules around them. Not only was her behavior inappropriate from the standpoint that she was pestering someone into doing things they were uncomfortably with, but she also consented to the rules of the camp, broke them, and encouraged another younger and very impressionable skater to break them with her.
> she was pestering someone into doing things they were uncomfortably with There is no evidence of this yet. This is just people making assumptions. What we know from the facts that have been presented is that he consented to it but we do not know who had the original idea or how it was brought up. We only know that he was a willing participant. I say "willing participant" because again we don't know if he asked for it or just consented to it or how much discussion there was before the act or what led to the act. There has also been no evidence that he was uncomfortable with the act, but we do know he was uncomfortable with the visible mark as it could "expose their relationship". We really just don't have enough information at this time to know more facts and anything else is speculation based on what we and others perceive the situation to be. I think it's wrong to apply labels such as bullying, abuse, etc when we really don't have any factual information to make those judgements yet. Did she break camp rules? Sure. Does that mean she should be suspended for 3 years, ending her career and essentially ruining her life. No. Unless more information comes out, this is just based on what we know now.
He didn’t consent. You cannot consent if you don’t know what you’re consenting to. The statement by C states that he was uncomfortable with the hickey itself and promptly left the room. Only later in the messages did he address the potential of getting caught. And idk man, maybe if you don’t want to lose your spot on a national team you should just follow the rules. I mean if I lost my job for drinking while at a conference and engaging in lewd behavior with my coworkers, no one would bat an eye even if it would still ruin my life and career.
Korea has exceptions built into their age of consent laws (aka Romeo and Juliet laws). This case falls outside those exceptions. Granted, just outside, but outside nonetheless. Romeo is never given an age in the play (though 14-16 is most likely the intent) and it is not about what you say it is about either. It's about two kids in a war situation who choose love over fighting and in doing so save their city, but the war kills them before they get to enjoy peace. Also, with this and your above arguments about the texts proving something--please don't do this. The psychoanalysis of these texts and assumptions crosses a line. Those arguments are very familiar and not in a good way. He's said he's traumatized. We don't need to dissect the hows and whys. Signed, someone who used to do child protection and also has taught classes on Romeo and Juliet.
I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be severe punishment. But I am wondering how they determine level of punishment and precedent for this. Like is there some sort of guideline? Less for athlete A, but athlete B’s punishment does feel overly harsh and I’m unsure what to compare it to.
Well she also let C into her room, facilitated underaged drinking, broke no drinking training rules, and harassed C. I think she’s lucky it’s only the year, personally, considering there was zero history with C or reason for her to insert herself into the situation. If anything, she should’ve been C’s advocate, and it’s disappointing that she witnessed what was happening and didn’t step in.
Okay I guess I didn’t get those parts of the fact? Where was it stated that she let C into her room and that she present during the harassment? Because my understanding was that she took a possibly pic of A that was then sent to C. If she actually sent it to C from her own phone yeah that problematic but I don’t even think that was what was reported?
The initial KSU statement said that B was being sanctioned for distributing inappropriate photos to C, and that all three were drinking.
Where in the KSU statement does it say she sent it to athlete C? I thought it only said she took “sexually offensive” pics of athlete A (which seems to have been consensual between adults?).
The statement is on this sub with translations, you can go back and read it.
I did. I didn’t see anything about sending pics to athlete C. Which is why I was asking you what section you are referring to? If you are accusing athlete B of something I think we should at least be able to point to the official statement to show me where it says that.
Links to the official KSU statement are here, as well as a summary of the actions which includes that B shared indecent photos with C https://www.reddit.com/r/FigureSkating/s/balmupt8uQ Additionally B put out a statement saying that the KSU accusations are wrong and that the photos she took were neither inappropriate nor were they sent to C. Will be interesting to see what her retrial in particular turns up however as it stands, KSU is banning her in part due to their belief that she did take inappropriate photos and disseminate them to C.
[удалено]
Please remove his name
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4. >4. Be civil in discussing skating figures. Do not speculate on the identity of victims of sexual harassment or assault. Do not name minor victims. Thanks. > Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
[удалено]
Please remove his name
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4. >4. Be civil in discussing skating figures. > Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4. >4. Be civil in discussing skating figures. Do not name victims of sexual harassment and assault unless they themselves come forward. > Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
People on here profusely shaming anyone who dares saying "it's not clear from the statement whether victim C was traumatised by the hickey OR by the whole suspension thing" need to calm the hell down. It is a FACT, unless the translations were wrong, that it is unclear. None of us (or maybe a small, stupid minority) are saying the relationship was healthy or that victim C is making anything up. I have never in my life not believed a victim and will always stand for them and I sure hope it's the case of everyone here. But I'm still able to read an article without drawing additional, unnecessary conclusions. It's for victim C to share that information anyway, if and when he feels safe and appropriate to so do. The story is bad enough, there's no need to extrapolate. The law doesn't guess or read between the lines.
Three young lives potentially ruined over a hickey. I don’t know what my teenage self would have done if my first forays into relationships and sexuality were made public and ridiculed all over the world like this. How do you recover from something like that?
I think it goes back to something that came up with Valieva a lot: if someone is skating as a senior skater their misconduct has to be treated as a misconduct of an adult. If you are in a training camp and you know there are certain rules and you are being supervised by people who are responsible for upholding those rules and then you still chose to break a bunch of those rules it's can't be treated as "teenage exploration". It's not a summer holiday, it's not their personal time, they were basically at a work event arranged by their employer, they broke the rules imposed by the employer (and possibly the law, I'm now too confused by all the versions of the to understand for sure), the employer is penalizing them. The public spectacle around it is unfortunate but it is a big story for the sport. I feel for the girls in some way as for any young person who ruined their life for something stupid and easily avoidable but they have to be held responsible.
Firstly, it is possible that there were other things that went on considering that we didn’t hear anything about the photographs or drinking from Victim C. He may have released only what he was comfortable with the public knowing. Secondly, even if details weren’t left out, it wasn’t just a hickey. It was an entire series of events and behaviors from Haein that led a younger boy to feel pressured into actions and a relationship he was uncomfortable with. It’s unclear when he began to seek psychological treatment but my understanding is he sought it even before it was public. So these events were causing him such psychological distress that he couldn’t even train just because of the nature of them. Then to make matters worse, Haein publicly identified him and shared their personal messages without his consent.
[удалено]
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4. >4. Be civil in discussing skating figures. > Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
[удалено]
Your submission has been removed for violating Rule 4. >4. Be civil in discussing skating figures. > Blunt criticism of skaters, officials, and other skating figures is welcome, but please remember to be civil even when being critical. Excessive hostility, body shaming/eating disorder speculation, degrading commentary, name calling, and ill-wishing are not. "I don't think XYZ deserved that score and ABC should have won over them?" Fine. "XYZ is trash garbage and I hope they fall four times?" Not fine. We will hand out 3 day suspensions for the first and second offenses under this rule, with a permanent ban on the third offense.
honestly if u imagine urself as a 19 year old and then look at a 16 year old, ur a whole ass adult and u see a high school kid, u should feel an enormous gap 😭😭 like i would NOT be interested in a child at the age of 19, that’s weird behavior, imagine the freshman dating the senior stories we all cringe at, this is the same thing
calling a 19-year-old a whole ass adult is kind of ridiculous...that's still a teenager, and in Korea, literally just out of high school
?? the issue still stands, 19 and 16 is too big a gap at their ages, it’s creepy shit, first year of college and high school student, weird ass gap 💀
Will she be able to compete this year or not? This tweet says August/September for a retrial and it sounds like that verdict can be appealed further.
I doubt it. They also said if she’s successful with the appeal the ban will be reduced to 1-2 years. So sounds like she’s definitely out for the season.
This is a wake up call for parents, teenager children who have relationships with any age gap, there will always be a situation where one of them becomes a young adult and the other one still being minor. Anything that happen between them could get into an extremely messy situation, even just over a hickey. Those over controlling parents are the kind of family who need to be very careful to deal with.
When will you guys stop acting like this is some high school drama, this situation is messy and probably was messy way before it blew up and nobody got punished. The issue here is this happened at a WORK event. I have a level of sympathy for Haein but God, this is peak fuck around and find out. Drinking at a work event, giving alcohol to a minor co-worker, inviting him to your room and getting sexual with him, all of which go very much against the basic formal and informal guidlines and policies... even the whole debate about consent and age aside (which is a crazy sentence), this would get you fired by any employer anywhere. Having talent and working in an unusual field doesn't make it okay to behave like a wild animal at work.
So did the minor, if it was consensual, he should be punished as well, the reason he got off lightly is that he claimed it was sexual assault. This kind serious charge needs to be proved with police involved. Real evidence needs to be gathered, not just his words. Heain can't do much to defend herself now other than posting those real conversations with the minor after this incident. she just turned adult one month before the incident, the minor will be legal to have sex after 5 months. if she sues this minor for defamation, she probably will lose because this is borderline illegal for them to have sex at this age in South Korea. It is under police discretion. Heain is stupid to trust their relationship and her stupidity led to this situation that her life in South Korea could be destroyed by this.
For some reason i was reading this as "Haein Lee retires". Oh wel...