While I know nothing about the Aussie production industry or education, here in the US you'd still be preaching truth! There are 3 colleges/universities in the city I live in that offer TV/film production degrees. The state university is apparently mainly focused on news, the HBCU has no equipment for the students to use, and the private university charges over $40,000 per year in just tuition.
The students at that last one also aren't allowed to use film related work in projects, my coworker has been finishing up her old unfinished degree from when she left uni over 10 years ago and they keep refusing to let her make video projects, it all has to be essay writing. The only reason she is leaving film school having shot anything during her 2 years there is because she works full time in corporate video production and has successfully made and distributed a documentary on her own, so she insisted on shooting video during her degree and used her existing knowledge and connections to do it.
As a favor I recently went in to give a guest lecture on producing for corporate video as a way for students to keep developing their filmmaking skills while earning a living wage so they don't need to go wait tables and hope they can shoot stuff on nights and weekends. The class I was addressing was specifically for producing, like how do you produce a film or video project, for seniors only. The students had never been told that you need to pull permits or secure insurance for productions, because they currently operate under the school's umbrella and no one ever told them it doesn't continue working that way when you leave.
The producing professor is new to the US, as in she had to immigrate here during the middle of a semester while she was previously teaching remote from another continent. She has never made any productions within the US so she also did not know any of this, and to her credit she was very open about it. She is not a producer, has never produced any work, she is just the closest the school had on staff so the class was given to her. She was taking notes from my lecture and we have since moved to email conversation for me to help provide some input on gaps in their program and processes.
They charge these kids $200,000 dollars for a 4 year degree and hire teachers that have never worked a project within 5,000 miles of this country and who have no familiarity with our specific flavor of the industry, and have them teach classes that they have no experience or background in. They don't even tell the students that most of the ones that make it will have to be comfortable with being freelance, or accept a much lower salary to get full time work. They are going through the program expecting to get a nice full time job making movies. What the fuck?
I teach at a film school in the US. I tell every student day one in every class: 1. You do NOT need film school to work in the industry. 2. A film school degree does not guarantee any job in the industry. 3. There simply are not enough jobs for everyone in this room (127 seats) to walk into upon graduation.
On the other side of that darkness I tell students a few benefits of film school: 1. Structured space/schedule to create 2. Feedback from instructors and peers 3. Access to spaces (studios), gear and actors (if your school has a drama dept) 4. Great (safe) place to make mistakes, experiment and find your voice
I do see an increase in students on the spectrum but I work in a state school in a very liberal area which caters to marginalized peoples and focuses on inclusion...that said I can say without a doubt the admin side and the admissions side is very predatory, insulated and blame all issues outward as they serve themselves while supporting no one. They are what represents the darkness in treating educational system as profit centers as opposed to creating public good.
Instructors are being pushed to carry students along even if they're failing to enable continuation of flowing cash and "good feels" for the college way...
As someone who works in the industry, is a parent of college aged kids, and is an instructor, I have a LOT of thoughts on all this from the inside and out ...most of those thoughts build to frustration and anger quickly.
You are NOT alone.
Once upon a time...
YouTube landscapes have changed dramatically and although it is still possible for anyone with the right content at the right moment to go viral, the earlier models that allowed for content creators to generate income have been severely truncated.
Bachelor of Animation graduate (2016) here. I truly regret doing my degree. It was good in the sense it got me motivated to move to this field(ish), or just do something. But there was no other benefit. Now I have close to 90k in debt that I'm never gonna pay off because I don't like 3d, and there's like no 2d jobs anywhere. Motion graphics are what I'll most likely get but I just don't want to do corporate graphics full time (did it for over a year, and the only way I'll do it again is contract work, so short periods of time).
So I'm just going to do my own art and earn whatever money I can for food, beer and rent.
If anyone's thinking of going to SAE because a 2-year degree seems appealing, I'd strongly reconsider and do it via uni instead. Our end of degree industry night had zero industry professionals attend. We had two different 3d teachers leave, and got one who was teaching for the first time. It's just not worth the debt. There was nothing learnt that couldn't be learnt via YouTube as far as animation goes. In fact the most interesting class was film, in particular script writing. And drawing - but I'm an illustrator so already loved that.
I've seen a lot of graphic design jobs that state a relevant bachelor's degree but like, who ever checks? Getting a job in the industry is like 85% who you know and anything else just goes off your portfolio.
Filmmaker on the spectrum graduating from film school next month, and yeah this is pretty much spot on. I wasn’t diagnosed on the spectrum until I was 19, and honestly I feel like if I knew I was autistic before I was 18 I would’ve never gone to film school, which sounds crazy, but I honestly just thought I was just weird until I was diagnosed, not someone with a mental disorder. Anyway, I still love filmmaking, and I’m gonna try and freelance for as long as I can after I graduate, but I’m also trying to figure out a back up plan for when I eventually burn out. Having autism isn’t inherently a bad thing, but when you’re on the spectrum youre more easily swayed by ideas and people in a way which neurotypical people aren’t and it’s very clear that this is something of a strategy for some types of institutions.
As others pointed out, that is the core of the income equality problem. "Get better education". But 10.000s others do the same and want the same jobs. This isn't limited to the arts, but it hits there more. 5000 masters in mechanical engineering will get "decent" jobs, but many others wont. The whole scientific education system is already on the collapse. You have to publish papers to get recognition, but new topics are rare. People started to write [bogus papers](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/feb/03/the-situation-has-become-appalling-fake-scientific-papers-push-research-credibility-to-crisis-point) to get to the finish line. That is pure desperation.
Raising cost of products is one way to deal with demand. Those unis are flooded with applications. But that is just half the picture, the other half is that its just a damn good business to bloat the uni's relevance and personell. People could do it other ways but they don't want to. Pay a lot, also for a name or supposed "networks" you build = more chances for employment. But that viewpoint has so many asterisks its becoming a meme.
The rising tuition cost unfortunately is not to stifle demand. My alma mater every year brags about their “new largest freshman class in school history!”
They’re just churning money out of these kids at an absurd rate and devaluing the degree itself in the name of short term profits.
Michigan State, if you’re wondering. “Public” university.
woah MSU has a film school??
totally agree re: devaluing the degree btw.. our administration is fucking awful
(MSU compsci 2004 fwiw but super interested in filmmaking)
For the record I have a degree in journalism that I completed 20 years ago at a total cost of $14k AUD. It was fully paid off within 3 years of me completing the degree.
This and so many other problems is just symptomatic of decades of income inequity. As more money rises to the top and the middle class craters, underfunded public universities will charge more, private schools can then charge more, and graduates will emerge as indentured servants to their loans.
This is where things have been headed. It's easy to point fingers but really hard to turn a systemic malfunction around.
I work in the live event side of the industry and the amount of my colleagues that have crippling debt from going to school for Technical Theater is insane. It opens some doors and the right professors can get you contacts for certain gigs, but it’s entirely up to your work ethic and willingness to keep expanding your skill set to move further in the industry.
I know people that went to college and people that just worked their way up without formal education, and both groups have made it big tours and department head positions in sizable venue. So much of the job has to be learned in the field.
Yes and no. I agree that tertiary education is overpriced and diluted but at least other industries give graduates clear career paths and progressions and generally release graduates into a world with genuine job prospects.
And at least if you studied film or media at a normal university you won’t be in 50k debt and have other courses to take that can make you more well rounded.
Sad to say it isn't just film schools and the film industry. This type of shite keeps coming up about more and more places; I'm just surprised when it happens outside the United States of Unchecked Capitalism.
Yes, that's pretty much what you said. "I'm just surprised when it happens outside the United States Of Unchecked Capitalism". Obviously you have a very myopic worldview.....you think America is some "exception" and that anywhere else outside of America must be so much fairer and just.
It's EXACTLY the same in my country.
I once gave a guest lecture at a local university about professional photogaphy.
They pump out about 40 'photographers' each and every year. And there are maybe one or two jobs in the entire country.
They are ripping inexperienced 18 year olds off.
I 100% agree. I've been too, worked at and come out they other end of a few and my only takeaway is film schools in Australia aren't worth it. On top of the same international student issues that plague any university in this country they are understaffed, underequipped and straight up teaching outdated or wrong information with no chance to actually learn because you're in and out before you can develop a craft.
Man this hits. I majored in Film Studies at my uni, and it was the most useless and expensive product I ever bought. Not a single commercial need for it outside of academia, and even less career support/pathway options.
If you're thinking of going to war with film schools you need to offer an alternative that'll hit their pocket book hard. With the quality of education you can get from youtube videos I think ultimately your product will need to be free, and I have no idea how you'd make money afterwards... maybe charging for a certification test or hands-on labs? (ie: show me you can set up a C-Stand)
That said, I like the cut of your jib. I'm a former teacher. Hit me up if you want curriculum ideas.
I don’t want to compete with them. I just want to dissuade as many kids as possible from wasting their money with them.
There’s plenty of parents out there who’ve built up college funds for their kids since birth. It’s insulting to see that money wasted on something that in real
terms isn’t going to give the kid anything of value.
Education should be a financial investment and I don’t think the film school model is one of investment. If anything it’s a luxury item.
When it comes to education, you're literally singing my favourite song. For what it's worth, though, I don't think change happens unless they feel an existential threat.
That's why I liked your "going to war" phrasing.
Anyways, maybe I'm just feeling feisty.
Apparently beer does that.
Um...
As you were.
this is semi-relevant, but at my film school which i literally dropped out of high school for, we literally don’t do ANYTHING.
we just get given work sheets to fill out and whenever we finally get the chance to film something, we don’t get taught how to use the equipment or anything and we’re just expected to know stuff.
edit: i’d like to mention that i was taught WAY more stuff in my high school media class.
Man you pretty much described my life in the US. Went to a technical college with a good film program (if you’re there to be a Dp/sound mixer/editor) for screenwriting & directing. I wanted to go to more of an art school but my parents pressured me not to so I would have a more “traditional college experience”(I still didn’t lol). I met some great people & am proud of the work I did, but I was not in the right place to get my creative skills sharply honed. I have autism & the pressure of each semester combined with having to complete my graduation film during the height of COVID led me to have severe burnout after I finished. I spent most of the last 3 years trying to PA and set dress but work has been so sporadic that I couldn’t make enough money to continue living in a city with any major filmmaking hub.
Now I’m 20+k in debt & working a part time minimum wage job at a retailer. I want to make more short films in my spare time but I’ve been struggling to manage my energy & enthusiasm.
I know just how you feel. I’m on the spectrum too and I’m dying to get some stuff made. Only just recent did my first music video for a friend, but I wanna get more experience. It would be cool to work with other people on the spectrum too tbh :)
I think some students just make bad choices and it’s not the schools fault. Here in the US there’s film schools that you’ll end up with <15k debt but there are avenues that’ll lead you to 100k debt and why you would ever pick a school that is 100k is beyond me (unless you’re parents are rich, which happens).
> I can only assume that most of them end up going and doing another degree and lumping themselves with even more debt in order to get a job in a different industry after this one quickly doesn’t work out.
You can assume that, but it's not always true. I freelanced throughout school, but work was never consistent enough to keep doing it. So, I got a job at a TV studio that I hated, then I got a job at rental company which I also hated. So, I left the industry. Working on set only pays you if you can get a ton of work. The jobs that come with a regular pay check are terrible.
Yes yes yes yes. I was an 18 year old kid from Townsville that didn’t understand HECS and debt and got sucked into the promise of a film career at JMC in Sydney. Lecturers are focus pullers with no formal education experience. Or you end up getting showed how to do broadcast TV with systems and tech 10+ years out of date. It wasn’t until SEVEN YEARS AFTER GRADUATING that I worked my way into regular work of my own back and doing films for free. And here I am at 31 when my boss is 30 and didn’t go to film school.
I don’t remember anything I learnt nor is it particularly relevant to my department. Unless you’re a director, most of it is pointless.
I’m still in the same amount of debt as when I started despite servicing 10 thousand dollars.
The government can’t just write blank HECS cheques to whatever these bullshit schools are asking.
I want to picket the open days for SAE and JMC. At least AFTRS seems to have more genuine pathways into employment.
Edit: the part about making it seem like you’re lucky is so sad. I put so much effort into my application and was so nervous. The excitement when I got accepted was like nothing else.
Then I moved to Sydney and half the people in my class could barely read. First trimester I was the top of the class, by the end I stopped showing up and went to work in events instead. I did just enough to graduate because realised how much of my time was being wasted.
50k. I think when I went in 2011 it was 48 thousand.
Because I only worked casually during and a while after uni it worked its way up to somewhere like 55.
Now that I’ve been full time for the last 3 years I’ve pushed it back down to 48 but will jump with the indexing again this year.
There’s too many film schools these days to be 100% honest.
Thousands of graduates every single year are pushed into the industry expecting work - and as an Aussie who now works in LA, it’s hard enough in a place like LA, which is the hub of the world’s industry and there are many many jobs.
In Australia there’s so few jobs and so many graduates that you end up in a situation where something has to give.
So of course people are undercharging. And of course that’s adjusting producer’s expectations.
At least in Australia you can defer your debt on a HECS-HELP loan.
The thing is film school *can* be useful, though whether it’s as useful as the price…. I don’t know…
Film school has become big business and they’ve exploded in popularity.
In Australia probably the only one worth going to is AFTRS, but even that doesn’t solve the problem of competing with thousands of graduates who have no other skills and are all competing for the cheapest rate.
I’m not really sure what the answer is to be completely honest. We’re seeing contractions across the board in terms of money spent and meanwhile thousands of new graduates every year. Many of whom will happily live at their parents’ house for free and take $200/day.
Not to mention all the people who don’t go to film school but still want to work in the industry…
How to fix a broken system…?
As an aside, I finished film school about a decade ago, and $500/day then would have been an amazing rate for a fresh grad. I was lucky to get $50/day for over 2 years. Then I was 1st ACing on commercials for $450/day (which I really should have been paid $750/day + kit for at least).
Same thing exists here in the UK. Not only are they greedy with their fees for students. They are very arrogant and the snobbery is downright depressing. I didn't go to film school or university as I am a self taught filmmaker.
Yeh tafe still operates. Realistically that’s the only place film students should go as it’s a trade college and working in tv is equally a trade. Tafe isn’t as cheap as it used to be though. You’re still looking at a few thousand a year, but I agree it’s much less than uni.
This is definitely a problem in NA markets too. Even the best film schools seem to have a problem with most of their undergrads. Almost without fail, any time I had a PA who was a fresh grad from the USC film program, they did not want to work, they did not know what their job was, and they did not know how to work with people. Meanwhile, I could get a part time veterinary assistant who had worked on 2 sets in his entire life, and he'd be my go-to, hard worker, willing to learn, and self-aware enough not to take jobs like firewatch personally.
Most film programs don't actually teach their students how to work in the industry, and most of the kids who's families can afford that 6-figure tuition think that because of spending that time in a "prestigious" film program that they don't have to do the job that they were hired for. Give me a choice and I'll take the PA that actually wants to be there, and not the PA looking to be somewhere else.
I couldn’t agree more. On top of all of that, these schools also see themselves as social justice warriors, seeking to indoctrinate students during their education.
It’s criminal. Long after students graduate and these teachers long-forget who they are, they’re still loaded down with student debt that can’t be discharged. The loans are handed out indiscriminately and without and due process, further disconnecting the borrowers from the fact this is real money they will one day have to earn and repay.
While I know nothing about the Aussie production industry or education, here in the US you'd still be preaching truth! There are 3 colleges/universities in the city I live in that offer TV/film production degrees. The state university is apparently mainly focused on news, the HBCU has no equipment for the students to use, and the private university charges over $40,000 per year in just tuition. The students at that last one also aren't allowed to use film related work in projects, my coworker has been finishing up her old unfinished degree from when she left uni over 10 years ago and they keep refusing to let her make video projects, it all has to be essay writing. The only reason she is leaving film school having shot anything during her 2 years there is because she works full time in corporate video production and has successfully made and distributed a documentary on her own, so she insisted on shooting video during her degree and used her existing knowledge and connections to do it. As a favor I recently went in to give a guest lecture on producing for corporate video as a way for students to keep developing their filmmaking skills while earning a living wage so they don't need to go wait tables and hope they can shoot stuff on nights and weekends. The class I was addressing was specifically for producing, like how do you produce a film or video project, for seniors only. The students had never been told that you need to pull permits or secure insurance for productions, because they currently operate under the school's umbrella and no one ever told them it doesn't continue working that way when you leave. The producing professor is new to the US, as in she had to immigrate here during the middle of a semester while she was previously teaching remote from another continent. She has never made any productions within the US so she also did not know any of this, and to her credit she was very open about it. She is not a producer, has never produced any work, she is just the closest the school had on staff so the class was given to her. She was taking notes from my lecture and we have since moved to email conversation for me to help provide some input on gaps in their program and processes. They charge these kids $200,000 dollars for a 4 year degree and hire teachers that have never worked a project within 5,000 miles of this country and who have no familiarity with our specific flavor of the industry, and have them teach classes that they have no experience or background in. They don't even tell the students that most of the ones that make it will have to be comfortable with being freelance, or accept a much lower salary to get full time work. They are going through the program expecting to get a nice full time job making movies. What the fuck?
Preach.
I teach at a film school in the US. I tell every student day one in every class: 1. You do NOT need film school to work in the industry. 2. A film school degree does not guarantee any job in the industry. 3. There simply are not enough jobs for everyone in this room (127 seats) to walk into upon graduation. On the other side of that darkness I tell students a few benefits of film school: 1. Structured space/schedule to create 2. Feedback from instructors and peers 3. Access to spaces (studios), gear and actors (if your school has a drama dept) 4. Great (safe) place to make mistakes, experiment and find your voice I do see an increase in students on the spectrum but I work in a state school in a very liberal area which caters to marginalized peoples and focuses on inclusion...that said I can say without a doubt the admin side and the admissions side is very predatory, insulated and blame all issues outward as they serve themselves while supporting no one. They are what represents the darkness in treating educational system as profit centers as opposed to creating public good. Instructors are being pushed to carry students along even if they're failing to enable continuation of flowing cash and "good feels" for the college way... As someone who works in the industry, is a parent of college aged kids, and is an instructor, I have a LOT of thoughts on all this from the inside and out ...most of those thoughts build to frustration and anger quickly. You are NOT alone.
[удалено]
Once upon a time... YouTube landscapes have changed dramatically and although it is still possible for anyone with the right content at the right moment to go viral, the earlier models that allowed for content creators to generate income have been severely truncated.
Bachelor of Animation graduate (2016) here. I truly regret doing my degree. It was good in the sense it got me motivated to move to this field(ish), or just do something. But there was no other benefit. Now I have close to 90k in debt that I'm never gonna pay off because I don't like 3d, and there's like no 2d jobs anywhere. Motion graphics are what I'll most likely get but I just don't want to do corporate graphics full time (did it for over a year, and the only way I'll do it again is contract work, so short periods of time). So I'm just going to do my own art and earn whatever money I can for food, beer and rent. If anyone's thinking of going to SAE because a 2-year degree seems appealing, I'd strongly reconsider and do it via uni instead. Our end of degree industry night had zero industry professionals attend. We had two different 3d teachers leave, and got one who was teaching for the first time. It's just not worth the debt. There was nothing learnt that couldn't be learnt via YouTube as far as animation goes. In fact the most interesting class was film, in particular script writing. And drawing - but I'm an illustrator so already loved that.
Currently at SAE and leaving with a Diploma instead of a Bachelor's degree like I originally intended to. Couldn't agree with you more.
I've seen a lot of graphic design jobs that state a relevant bachelor's degree but like, who ever checks? Getting a job in the industry is like 85% who you know and anything else just goes off your portfolio.
Filmmaker on the spectrum graduating from film school next month, and yeah this is pretty much spot on. I wasn’t diagnosed on the spectrum until I was 19, and honestly I feel like if I knew I was autistic before I was 18 I would’ve never gone to film school, which sounds crazy, but I honestly just thought I was just weird until I was diagnosed, not someone with a mental disorder. Anyway, I still love filmmaking, and I’m gonna try and freelance for as long as I can after I graduate, but I’m also trying to figure out a back up plan for when I eventually burn out. Having autism isn’t inherently a bad thing, but when you’re on the spectrum youre more easily swayed by ideas and people in a way which neurotypical people aren’t and it’s very clear that this is something of a strategy for some types of institutions.
As others pointed out, that is the core of the income equality problem. "Get better education". But 10.000s others do the same and want the same jobs. This isn't limited to the arts, but it hits there more. 5000 masters in mechanical engineering will get "decent" jobs, but many others wont. The whole scientific education system is already on the collapse. You have to publish papers to get recognition, but new topics are rare. People started to write [bogus papers](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/feb/03/the-situation-has-become-appalling-fake-scientific-papers-push-research-credibility-to-crisis-point) to get to the finish line. That is pure desperation. Raising cost of products is one way to deal with demand. Those unis are flooded with applications. But that is just half the picture, the other half is that its just a damn good business to bloat the uni's relevance and personell. People could do it other ways but they don't want to. Pay a lot, also for a name or supposed "networks" you build = more chances for employment. But that viewpoint has so many asterisks its becoming a meme.
The rising tuition cost unfortunately is not to stifle demand. My alma mater every year brags about their “new largest freshman class in school history!” They’re just churning money out of these kids at an absurd rate and devaluing the degree itself in the name of short term profits. Michigan State, if you’re wondering. “Public” university.
woah MSU has a film school?? totally agree re: devaluing the degree btw.. our administration is fucking awful (MSU compsci 2004 fwiw but super interested in filmmaking)
For the record I have a degree in journalism that I completed 20 years ago at a total cost of $14k AUD. It was fully paid off within 3 years of me completing the degree.
This and so many other problems is just symptomatic of decades of income inequity. As more money rises to the top and the middle class craters, underfunded public universities will charge more, private schools can then charge more, and graduates will emerge as indentured servants to their loans. This is where things have been headed. It's easy to point fingers but really hard to turn a systemic malfunction around.
I work in the live event side of the industry and the amount of my colleagues that have crippling debt from going to school for Technical Theater is insane. It opens some doors and the right professors can get you contacts for certain gigs, but it’s entirely up to your work ethic and willingness to keep expanding your skill set to move further in the industry. I know people that went to college and people that just worked their way up without formal education, and both groups have made it big tours and department head positions in sizable venue. So much of the job has to be learned in the field.
The big problem is man that you are talking about every tertiary education option these days.
Yes and no. I agree that tertiary education is overpriced and diluted but at least other industries give graduates clear career paths and progressions and generally release graduates into a world with genuine job prospects.
Well, some do. But the majority of students aren't heading into those industries. Just ask PE teachers.
And at least if you studied film or media at a normal university you won’t be in 50k debt and have other courses to take that can make you more well rounded.
Sad to say it isn't just film schools and the film industry. This type of shite keeps coming up about more and more places; I'm just surprised when it happens outside the United States of Unchecked Capitalism.
You seriously believe that the United States is the only country with unchecked capitalism?
Is that what I said?
Yes, that's pretty much what you said. "I'm just surprised when it happens outside the United States Of Unchecked Capitalism". Obviously you have a very myopic worldview.....you think America is some "exception" and that anywhere else outside of America must be so much fairer and just.
It's EXACTLY the same in my country. I once gave a guest lecture at a local university about professional photogaphy. They pump out about 40 'photographers' each and every year. And there are maybe one or two jobs in the entire country. They are ripping inexperienced 18 year olds off.
I 100% agree. I've been too, worked at and come out they other end of a few and my only takeaway is film schools in Australia aren't worth it. On top of the same international student issues that plague any university in this country they are understaffed, underequipped and straight up teaching outdated or wrong information with no chance to actually learn because you're in and out before you can develop a craft.
Man this hits. I majored in Film Studies at my uni, and it was the most useless and expensive product I ever bought. Not a single commercial need for it outside of academia, and even less career support/pathway options.
Preach my brother! Preach!
I recognize this in Denmark. Not just film, but also 3D and VFX. Man I wish I had chosen something else than graduate 3D College.
If you're thinking of going to war with film schools you need to offer an alternative that'll hit their pocket book hard. With the quality of education you can get from youtube videos I think ultimately your product will need to be free, and I have no idea how you'd make money afterwards... maybe charging for a certification test or hands-on labs? (ie: show me you can set up a C-Stand) That said, I like the cut of your jib. I'm a former teacher. Hit me up if you want curriculum ideas.
I don’t want to compete with them. I just want to dissuade as many kids as possible from wasting their money with them. There’s plenty of parents out there who’ve built up college funds for their kids since birth. It’s insulting to see that money wasted on something that in real terms isn’t going to give the kid anything of value. Education should be a financial investment and I don’t think the film school model is one of investment. If anything it’s a luxury item.
When it comes to education, you're literally singing my favourite song. For what it's worth, though, I don't think change happens unless they feel an existential threat. That's why I liked your "going to war" phrasing. Anyways, maybe I'm just feeling feisty. Apparently beer does that. Um... As you were.
this is semi-relevant, but at my film school which i literally dropped out of high school for, we literally don’t do ANYTHING. we just get given work sheets to fill out and whenever we finally get the chance to film something, we don’t get taught how to use the equipment or anything and we’re just expected to know stuff. edit: i’d like to mention that i was taught WAY more stuff in my high school media class.
Man you pretty much described my life in the US. Went to a technical college with a good film program (if you’re there to be a Dp/sound mixer/editor) for screenwriting & directing. I wanted to go to more of an art school but my parents pressured me not to so I would have a more “traditional college experience”(I still didn’t lol). I met some great people & am proud of the work I did, but I was not in the right place to get my creative skills sharply honed. I have autism & the pressure of each semester combined with having to complete my graduation film during the height of COVID led me to have severe burnout after I finished. I spent most of the last 3 years trying to PA and set dress but work has been so sporadic that I couldn’t make enough money to continue living in a city with any major filmmaking hub. Now I’m 20+k in debt & working a part time minimum wage job at a retailer. I want to make more short films in my spare time but I’ve been struggling to manage my energy & enthusiasm.
I know just how you feel. I’m on the spectrum too and I’m dying to get some stuff made. Only just recent did my first music video for a friend, but I wanna get more experience. It would be cool to work with other people on the spectrum too tbh :)
I think some students just make bad choices and it’s not the schools fault. Here in the US there’s film schools that you’ll end up with <15k debt but there are avenues that’ll lead you to 100k debt and why you would ever pick a school that is 100k is beyond me (unless you’re parents are rich, which happens).
> I can only assume that most of them end up going and doing another degree and lumping themselves with even more debt in order to get a job in a different industry after this one quickly doesn’t work out. You can assume that, but it's not always true. I freelanced throughout school, but work was never consistent enough to keep doing it. So, I got a job at a TV studio that I hated, then I got a job at rental company which I also hated. So, I left the industry. Working on set only pays you if you can get a ton of work. The jobs that come with a regular pay check are terrible.
Yes yes yes yes. I was an 18 year old kid from Townsville that didn’t understand HECS and debt and got sucked into the promise of a film career at JMC in Sydney. Lecturers are focus pullers with no formal education experience. Or you end up getting showed how to do broadcast TV with systems and tech 10+ years out of date. It wasn’t until SEVEN YEARS AFTER GRADUATING that I worked my way into regular work of my own back and doing films for free. And here I am at 31 when my boss is 30 and didn’t go to film school. I don’t remember anything I learnt nor is it particularly relevant to my department. Unless you’re a director, most of it is pointless. I’m still in the same amount of debt as when I started despite servicing 10 thousand dollars. The government can’t just write blank HECS cheques to whatever these bullshit schools are asking. I want to picket the open days for SAE and JMC. At least AFTRS seems to have more genuine pathways into employment. Edit: the part about making it seem like you’re lucky is so sad. I put so much effort into my application and was so nervous. The excitement when I got accepted was like nothing else. Then I moved to Sydney and half the people in my class could barely read. First trimester I was the top of the class, by the end I stopped showing up and went to work in events instead. I did just enough to graduate because realised how much of my time was being wasted.
How much debt are we talking?
50k. I think when I went in 2011 it was 48 thousand. Because I only worked casually during and a while after uni it worked its way up to somewhere like 55. Now that I’ve been full time for the last 3 years I’ve pushed it back down to 48 but will jump with the indexing again this year.
That’s criminal. I hope someone who’s considering SAE or JMC reads this
Yeah I’m just slightly grateful I did film. Have friends who paid to do performance. Even more of a disgusting fake advertising career.
There’s too many film schools these days to be 100% honest. Thousands of graduates every single year are pushed into the industry expecting work - and as an Aussie who now works in LA, it’s hard enough in a place like LA, which is the hub of the world’s industry and there are many many jobs. In Australia there’s so few jobs and so many graduates that you end up in a situation where something has to give. So of course people are undercharging. And of course that’s adjusting producer’s expectations. At least in Australia you can defer your debt on a HECS-HELP loan. The thing is film school *can* be useful, though whether it’s as useful as the price…. I don’t know… Film school has become big business and they’ve exploded in popularity. In Australia probably the only one worth going to is AFTRS, but even that doesn’t solve the problem of competing with thousands of graduates who have no other skills and are all competing for the cheapest rate. I’m not really sure what the answer is to be completely honest. We’re seeing contractions across the board in terms of money spent and meanwhile thousands of new graduates every year. Many of whom will happily live at their parents’ house for free and take $200/day. Not to mention all the people who don’t go to film school but still want to work in the industry… How to fix a broken system…? As an aside, I finished film school about a decade ago, and $500/day then would have been an amazing rate for a fresh grad. I was lucky to get $50/day for over 2 years. Then I was 1st ACing on commercials for $450/day (which I really should have been paid $750/day + kit for at least).
Same thing exists here in the UK. Not only are they greedy with their fees for students. They are very arrogant and the snobbery is downright depressing. I didn't go to film school or university as I am a self taught filmmaker.
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Yeh tafe still operates. Realistically that’s the only place film students should go as it’s a trade college and working in tv is equally a trade. Tafe isn’t as cheap as it used to be though. You’re still looking at a few thousand a year, but I agree it’s much less than uni.
This is definitely a problem in NA markets too. Even the best film schools seem to have a problem with most of their undergrads. Almost without fail, any time I had a PA who was a fresh grad from the USC film program, they did not want to work, they did not know what their job was, and they did not know how to work with people. Meanwhile, I could get a part time veterinary assistant who had worked on 2 sets in his entire life, and he'd be my go-to, hard worker, willing to learn, and self-aware enough not to take jobs like firewatch personally. Most film programs don't actually teach their students how to work in the industry, and most of the kids who's families can afford that 6-figure tuition think that because of spending that time in a "prestigious" film program that they don't have to do the job that they were hired for. Give me a choice and I'll take the PA that actually wants to be there, and not the PA looking to be somewhere else.
I couldn’t agree more. On top of all of that, these schools also see themselves as social justice warriors, seeking to indoctrinate students during their education. It’s criminal. Long after students graduate and these teachers long-forget who they are, they’re still loaded down with student debt that can’t be discharged. The loans are handed out indiscriminately and without and due process, further disconnecting the borrowers from the fact this is real money they will one day have to earn and repay.