One of the biggest benefits for me coming into this career from working in finance was having a union. Any day in my previous line of work someone could fire you right then and there for literally any reason they want. 0 protections. Even with a rule book, they could skirt around things and put you on the chopping block. Working with a union, if you are trying to fire me for something, it better be in writing what is not allowed. If the city starts doing funky stuff get the union involved. They have a lawyer on retainer if it gets really sticky. Also we had our rep visit the station the other day and straight up told us, " if you receive any write up of any kind, don't sign it. Contact one of us and we'll look it over to make sure it's within guidelines". I can't speak for all unions and departments. I work for a major metro dept so we have a lot of paying members.
Yea, I always hear about employee protections. And people screeching about retaining bad employees. My old Dad was in the Local Electrical. He loved it.
I really would like to know about contracts, pay and benefits? And how Unions could help getting things up to average.
My buddy's dept is going through contract negotiations with the City he works for. Both the fop and iaff are in negotiations. The Fop has stated that they are 17% paid lower than other dept of similar size in our state. He's demanding almost 30% raises over 3 years. The city seems to be dragging their feet with negotiations so the fop president did an interview with a local news channel telling them the city is dragging their feet. They can't fill recruit classes, can't retain officers because of surrounding cities have better pay. And I think they are 100+ officers short. Basically saying that the mayor isn't taking public safety seriously. That got back to the mayor and she had an interview then. My point is, without a union, you are kind of just left to what ever scraps the city has left over. Will they get 30%? Probably not. But I'm sure they will see hefty raises. And they wouldn't be getting those hefty raises without a union fighting.
Don’t forget though a lot of these negotiations are a fight. Cities will fight tooth and nail to keep their money. And even after negotiations are solidified they will continue to look for ways to go around the contract. It’s an ongoing battle but thankfully the iaff has people at the international and state level to help.
Look at the pay and benefits of non union departments…they suck ass pretty much across the board. Now I see this as a FF at a department in the PNW with probably one of the best contracts in the nation. I mean, our contract is so good we kind of have an agreement that when we go to IAFF conferences we avoid talking about how great it is unless directly asked because we don’t want our brother to feel shitty about their contract.
All of this is to say that my life is good because of the work generations of brothers in union have put in to set us up for success, both on the job and in retirement.
> Yea, I always hear about employee protections. And people screeching about retaining bad employees.
The screeching about retaining bad employees due to the union is mostly garbage. Because of the employee protections there has to be a clear record of disciplinary/corrective actions before someone can be fired. If that person is really that bad and that record isn't there then management is terrible in addition to the employee, but that is not the union's fault, it is the management's fault.
If a department is retaining bad employees, it's because they have bad leadership unwilling to fix the problem. Been a union FF/EMT for 5+ years. Anytime there has been a significant issue with a FF, there has been documentation and discipline so that, if the problem continues, the proper steps can be taken.
I love the local union, but I don't think that's completely true. We see people with 20+ workplace harassment and safety -related complaints just moved to another station in our county. One is banned from 5 of the stations in the county, but the union president is a friend of his straight from recruit class. The union here does many great things, but they do occasionally protect people who shouldn't be in the service, despite documentation.
You’ll have district reps that you can call up and ask for help with stuff, but unlike when you call up a lawyer, you want get billed for it. They want there locals, especially newly formed ones, to succeed so they are very willing to get you on your feet and going.
I believe there is also a fund for bargaining costs for smaller locals that don’t have much money.
They have resources for doing contract negotiations, they have training programs for how to run a local union, they have people you can call for advice when getting your local up and running. And the various conferences are very beneficial, you learn so much and get to meet people who have faced many of the same issues and get their takes on how to handle them as a local.
The biggest thing a union can do for you just based off this comment is bargain for 3 more guys so you guys can get time off and not be automatically forced back for overtime.
I get it. We've been asking for that for Several years. And we do have to run 'short' sometimes, 4 guys. Like now through July when the new budget year starts. OT has been burned. We're a County Dept. 700sqm, pop of 14k, 28k when the city calls for mutual aid.
That many guys sounds like a dream loo
Yeah see the union wouldn't let that run short stuff happen. Whatever state your in look up the iaff representative and reach out to them asking for information on how to start a union
That's what I was going to do. I've been there for 18yrs, shift LT now. Heard stories of Union 'threat' back in late 80/early 90s. Heard it was crushed pretty quickly. But that was a long time ago and long forgotten administration. Hell, don't know how many guys I can get on board...probably at least 1/2 to 3/4. So don't know if it's worth trying?
I can't really speak to that, I work for a larger department. I don't know what it's like to work for a small organization like that. But I am pro-union, basically across the board. Employees deserve protection. Without a union you're at the mercy of the powers in charge, and they don't have your best interest at heart.
No, I work for a small combination department and forming a local was the best thing we could have done. Almost immediately after hiring the first career firefighters here the district/management started fucking with them, changing work conditions, schedule, qualified overtime, vacation approvals, etc, everything was subjective. Unionizing put an end to all that.
We also get the benefit of comparing our contracts with similar size and demographic departments/towns. This helps keep everyone relatively level in terms of pay and benefits. The one non-union shop in the area has dog shit for pay and much lower benefits. Last year I made three times what firefighters literally next door made. Yes, a lot of that was OT but at least I had the opportunity to get OT!
Your small depo has standards put in place by unions nationwide. Even tho y’all aren’t directly affiliated yet your standards for pay, health and safety, time off, ect all fought for by the union and made pretty much standard nationwide. Yes the big department’s contribute the most and probably benefit the most, but to me; that doesn’t mean y’all shouldn’t do your part by supporting and joining. If it’s not ok for everyone, then it’s not ok for anyone. If every small department had the “we don’t need the union” attitude then it wouldn’t be as strong as it is today. Maybe some health and safety laws never get passed. Maybe living wages for fire fighters don’t get fought for on and nationwide scale and trickle down to un-unionize departments.
A key part to public safety unions working well is having binding arbitration. This essentially means that if you can’t come to an agreement with your city/county, you both present viable contracts to an independent arbitrator who picks the package that they feel is fair to both parties and both parties are legally bound to that contract.
Gotcha. As I replied to another...
I've been hearing on a local NPR station that Tallahassee, FL, FD has been in arbitration for months/year. Seems if one side is dug in, it could go on with little to no solution?
I’m sure you know this as a union officer, but in case anyone else wasn’t familiar collective bargaining rights are not the same as binding arbitration. You can have collective bargaining rights without binding arbitration.
Correct. We have had to resort to binding arbitration once before due to contract impasse but that was 15-ish or so years ago.
We are 14 for 14 on winning unfair labor practices so we generally don’t have the county itching for legal battles.
> independent arbitrator who picks the package that they feel is fair to both parties and both parties are legally bound to that contract.
How does the independent arbitrator get involved?
Once an impasse has been declared, by either party, they can begin the process of selecting an independent arbitrator. The process is a bit different depending on the arbitration agreement that is in place.
Ours there is a list of 9 arbitrators supplied by National Academy of Arbitrators and if an agreement on a single arbitrator cannot be reached the union and county take turns striking arbitrators off the list until only one remains.
Other places their arbitrator is selected wholly by an independent panel like the NAA or the American Arbitration Association.
Sure. But if they don't agree to the contract. I've been hearing on the local NPR station about Tallahassee, FL, FD. They've been in arbitration for months/year. So if the local government says 'No deal', what recourse is there?!
That's the thing with negotiating. It's back and forth until you find an agreement. Worst case you just revert to the previous contract and run with it.
An independent arbitrator will rule and his/her decision is final with a few exceptions. A year process isn’t unheard of. It’s not the quickest of processes.
I think your confusing negotiations and arbitration. Negotiations are the union and city agreeing to terms of a contract, while arbitration is a neutral third party coming in to help settle the dispute. This is generally binding, so it's agreed that the decision of the arbitrator will be final.
There can be many many steps to the process. Generally negotiations can go on for as long as you’re willing to negotiate before reaching an agreement or before you decide to bring in a 3rd party to settle the argument. We have 3 year contracts. This means every 3 years we sit across from the city to negotiate.
Last contract was straight forward: a 3% raises for each of the following 3 years, no other changes. The process lasted a little over a month and that was just to have our lawyers review everything and get the approval of our body of members while the city administration had to also get l approval at their monthly counsel meeting. That’s about as fast as it can possibly go when you’re working with government.
In contrast, we were in negotiations for literally 2 years for the contract before that one. There were several articles the city and the union where at odds with. Once you finally reach an impasse, you can elect to go to “fact finding” or “mediation” in hopes to reach an agreement over the articles (issues) being contested. A “3rd party” state-appointed ‘fact finder’ (mediator) hears the arguments from each side and presents a solution that both the city and the union can either agree on, make adjustments to, or reject completely. There can be quite a bit of time spent in negotiations after the fact finding process. Seeing the opinions of a fact finder/mediator also serves as a barometer for how the next phase might go, and that’s binding arbitration. Essentially the city and the union each present a contract that they are happy with and would sign immediately. The arbitrator looks it all over and chooses which of the two they feel is the most appropriate. There is no “splitting the baby” and no further negotiation or changing your mind after that, whatever the Arbitrator chooses, is the contract.
Our most recent contract got us a 24% raise the first two years and a D shift the third year (going from a 6-week Kelly to a D shift. 2704 hours to 2184).
That would not happen without the Union and our political connections.
Would you mind DMing me, or posting here, the main hit points you used to convince your city to get a fourth platoon? It’s something I’d like to bring to the table even though I know we don’t have a shot
Man it’s a lot to unpack what happened over 10 or so negotiations sessions.
For us it was the fact no one in Florida (other than two small city departments) have a 4th platoon. We will be the only FRS (Florida Retirement System) to offer it. The hope is it will lessen the attrition we had to other departments and the fiscal cost associated with that (on boarding costs and overtime costs to backfill vacancies)
Surrounding departments we lose people to have a 3-week Kelly (2496 annual hours) so we (union and county) decided we needed to do something drastically different.
Thank you. The attrition what I’ve been zoning in on. The last few years everyone has been so short staffed it’s made it so easy to jump elsewhere. Seems like every time we get staffing right it just goes back down the drain
To add to that we capitalized (if you can call it that) on our county’s commitment to better the mental health of our members. So more time off helps with that .
>It’s something I’d like to bring to the table even though I know we don’t have a shot
Same, we struggle staffing 3 shifts. Imagine trying to staff a 4th.
24 percent raise? you must have been getting screwed for a long time before this happened. it seems you are a captain. may i ask how long you have been in that position and what is your salary. you can private message me.
Not really screwed. The departments around us that we lose people to got a large raise in their contract which took effect right before we negotiated ours.
im miami dade. not city of miami. i feel like the opportunity to make money long term is there because of the size of the dept and all specialties. but i feel like actual regular pay isnt all that great for miami cost of living. ill be maxed out next august as a firefighter emt. it would be the middle of my eight year. i will be at 102k. sounds great. 6 figures with no overtime, not even a medic or any specialty pay besides a small amount for my state inspector and state driver. but it feels like 70k down here
Wish you boys would come back to the FPF but I know that’s a deep wound. We all got caught up to speed in Ottawa by Paul (your secretary I think).
But yes, if we were already on a 3-week I think it would be tougher to justify a 4th shift for the 300 hour savings unlike the 600 hours we are saving off a 6 week.
There’s a reason why there is negative rhetoric for unions in all industries and it mostly comes from the corporate/management level and a small amount from the low level scabs. For example, Walmart does everything in its power to stomp out union activity. Walmart is also known to pay people as little as possible and has a large percentage of employees that rely on government assistance. It doesn’t matter the industry. If you’re told not to unionize or how “bad” unions are, I can assure you it’s not for the betterment of the common on the floor firefighter. And just because unions help all workers, even the “bad” employees, just remember any day you could be the shitbag in managements eye and when that time comes I want to be in a union.
And if you’re looking to unionize, call IAFF and get the ball rolling. They will lead you through the steps. That’s what the international association of firefighters is there for.
This is inaccurate. They have standards so per diem/vollies aren't filling shifts (and stealing OT) which are usually staffed by professional firefighters. There are plenty of combination departments who have locals/CBAs.
We negotiated a hazard pay that pays us 7% every day we don't meet the NFPA 1710 criteria of 4 FFs per engine. Our state IAFF is reimbursing our union thousands of dollars in lawyers fees as this fight helps every other union in the state with their fight, we did the ground work, succeeded, and have set precedent with an arbitration board.
Can you go into further detail on this? 45 person small local that has the budget to staff appropriately but won’t and unfortunately my union doesn’t want to push the issue as much as I think we are obligated to. Looking for ideas to get 3 person engines tactfully and how the IAFF can help us do this. Thanks
Our union (Provincially) has successfully lobbied the government to make a list of cancers and diseases presumptive to our work.
In other words, we will be eligible for workers compensation benefits without having to prove the cancer is work related - so long as you’ve worked the required amount of years. [link](https://www.bcpffa.net/bc-presumptive-coverage).
Likewise covid, respiratory, PTSD, mental shit, and lots of other issues as well. They protect you putting your ass on the line rather than kicking you to the curb.
Anyone arguing that unions aren’t good for workers has fallen for the anti-union propaganda that corporations have been spewing for decades. They’re terrified of a unified labor movement asking for living wages and protections because it cuts into profits. Plain and simple. No matter your profession, if you want to be your own advocate and dictate how you expect to be treated as an employee, organize.
Strong leaders can get a lot of good done for your department, however a self centered prick can create a department no one likes working for. Choose who will represent you very carefully. I wasn’t around when my dept joined the international in the 80’s btw. If you have any specific questions though feel free to PM me.
You’re asking a couple questions that would take hours for me to answer. I’m the current President of my local I’ve been in for almost 2 decades. I was not here when it formed but I know that it takes a lot of work to get it done but it’s worth it. Reach out to your local IAFF DVP for info and also they will help all the way through. I couldn’t imagine doing this job without being in a union.
Ofcourse! Message me down the road and I will do everything I can to help. At the very least get you the info to someone close to you that will help, the IAFF and your state union have members that do the work of starting a local specifically and will know your area the best. Every area is different and has best practices for getting it done. If there is a nearby department to you that is union they will also help you out. I see in other comments your a smaller department but don’t let that slow you down. I know a local with even less members than you have. There is no negative to having your own union in my opinion. Will there be struggles and arguments? Hell yeah. But there probably already is. There is no perfect place, but I assure you working under a contract is the best thing! For so many reasons but one that is often not thought of (most talk about protections, wages, benefits which are all great) is there are so many facets in this line of work having a document that answers many questions about how something is supposed to be done (just like SOPs) makes our jobs that much easier. If there was no contract (union) then the answer could be different every time based on management, officers, elected officials and that just creates havoc in an already stressful environment. I personally believe every worker should be unionized, because having a seat at the table to hammer out best practices for yourself and your employer that’s agreed upon that both sides can then reference all the time is amazing. If management truly understood their employee and vice versa and worked together everyone thrives. It’s not about demanding all the money in the world from the employer, in our line of work if we used up all the tax dollars then someone would lose their job, us, so that would be stupid. It’s about finding the common goal of making it the best job so workers can do the best job which makes the employers even better. Man I could go on. Best of luck to you
I was an original member. Best decision I've ever made. The admin at the time decided to take away our Kelly's and lower our hourly rate to compensate, "but don't worry, your annual earnings won't change." Now I have direct control over my circumstances and a playbook everyone abides by. Unlike other unions, our fate is decided at our level, not national or international. Without unions, labor relations in the country would amount to serfdom.
As others have said, having a union is a HUGE benefit. It provides representation and protects for the rights of fire fighters. Schedule disputes, policy changes, representation for corrective action, and so much more. If my department wasn't unionized I don't know if I'd be here.
Idiots out here saying “unions just protect bad employees”. Not sure where they are working but my union didn’t hire those employees, that was the city. We’re just here to make sure they have fair representation. If they suck, make the case and get rid of them. We don’t want to work with dangerous firefighter either. Don’t blame us for a problem you created!
Love our union. I have great benefits, retirement, time off, pay and working conditions. All bargained for by our own guys from the line.
Couldn’t imagine working somewhere and letting the Chief do whatever he wants.
Unions are great until they sell out for politicians see Jacksonville FL when IAFF and FOP both agreed to give up guaranteed pensions for new hires (they just got them back under new mayor), and Reedy Creek or whatever the hell they want to be called now. Union went hard for governor sole takeover and control even gave him an axe, then year later is complaining about new pay and benefits.
Or when they don’t support fellow unions. In Florida police and fire unions, corrections have special carve outs of new anti union laws. No paycheck deductions for unions dues, new signup requirements etc. But most of the public safety unions say on the sidelines and don’t say anything.
Here’s the thing- There’s unions with and without contracts. I work for a metro department and we have a union, but the union does not have a contract with the city. Therefore it’s just a chest-thumping drinking club and only a small percentage of the job is in it. Voters would have to approve a contract, and the voters have said no because big business in the city spends millions in campaign $$ to tell the voters unions are bad. They win every time. Truth is they don’t want us to unionize because other industries in town might unionize, then it can cut into private business profits as workers demand better wages, better insurance, etc. it’s always about $.
In my department the firefighters and admin are two separate unions. In NJ you can be IAFF or FMBA, we’re both IAFF. I work in an urban community and cannot imagine working there without a union…everything is a battle with the city and the IAFF usually wins in our case.
We are probably going to lose unlimited sick and unsupervised medical leave because of bags of shit.
Some members are out for 60% of the year.
It's pathetic
Our Union is the tit’s. Highly recommend. They go to bad for us during contract negotiations, landing us great pay, benefits, and PTO. As far as bad apples go, it’s usually the crew they are assigned to during probation not realizing it or being too lazy to do anything about before union protection kicks in. There’s not many, but a few. I would say that the benefits though greatly outweigh the cons. If you’re looking for ideas, most unions have MOU’s publicly facing on their website.
I was involved in a union prior to firefighting, now I serve on our e board, it has been eye opening what our money goes to (at least where I am). We have a lot of people that specifically lobby for safer gear, better training, and working conditions that I have seen first hand. Im a big supporter.
I was a charter founding member of one union from my first fire job. It was full time non union when I hired in and we unionized.
Overall it’s a great experience. In a job that’s highly sought after, that extra protection is a god send. You can be replaced in an instant so just having that team mentality and covering your behind from the upper management is great. And I can’t speak for every department, but my starting pay would be about 38k a year if we didn’t have a union. Being able to bargain for your salary is great. Our town admin tried to end pension and go with 401k instead but were unsuccessful, due in large part to us having a union with our own money and lawyers to defend us.
President of an IAFF Local in California checking in. I just look at us compared to our BC’s — we’re represented and they are not.
Our BC’s get raises and perks when the City feels like doing it. When they face discipline there is no representation or access to attorneys on legal retainer. They have to do whatever is forced on them by City Hall and the Chief.
We get regular raises and negotiate every two years. We get incentives and representation. We have a kick ass law firm on retainer that specializes in fire locals. Nothing gets forced on us until we talk or meet and confer.
California Professional Firefighters (CPF) has also done a ton to get presumptive cancer laws passed for us here.
A lot of people do get annoyed that their per capita dues to IAFF and CPF go to fund Democrat candidates. You run into the dichotomies where maybe a Dem rep has voted favorably on fire related topics but then in every other facet, votes or supports things you don’t believe in. That can be a tough for some people to understand.
Thanks Man. Yea, single issue politics is not good for anyone.
BCs? Not familiar with that abbreviation?
How often do you need to call in the attorneys. Granted, we are a Very small Dept. I made a second post in the sub for another question. I'd appreciate it if you checked!
Battalion Chiefs.
We don’t need them all the time but when we do we take up a bunch of time so a retainer is great. We use them for contract negotiations and to just run a set of legal eyes over policy proposals, situations that come up, members with discipline issues, etc.
You’ll want a good fire local lawyer when you form. Your first contract negotiation with your municipality could be contentious since they won’t be used to it.
Ahhh, we don't have those. Too small. But around this area of the country they're simply called Bat/s.
Amd YUP! If we were to do this...i can't imagine the push back from the County office! Kinda scary actually...
99% of the paid FF in my country are in one union, it has paid off nationally with pay negotiations, conditions and personally the union have assisted me with issues around injury management ect. Id never been in a union previously but with at times how our organisation treats us we need the protection they can provide.
Unions are a lot and annoying sometimes. If I were I business owner or administrator I’d hate unions. But i am not if you were gunna be on a fire dept best to join union.
The union keeps morons employed, those same morons climb the career ladder, do nothing to make conditions better for their employees, and then the union lobbies for better conditions for employees. It’s a nihilistic circle of idiocy. The union does literally nothing for states for that don’t have bargaining agreements, yet still pressure you to pay your dues and you get nothing in return. I’ll take my downvotes. Enjoy your iaff mugs and bumper stickers. The only reason the union remains relevant is because of cowardly department leadership.
Unions don’t keep morons employed. Management that doesn’t want to do the work of properly holding employees accountable is what keeps morons employed. The union just forces management to cross their T’s and dot their I’s if they want to get rid of someone.
Unions don’t keep morons employed. Management that doesn’t want to do the work of properly holding employees accountable is what keeps morons employed. The union just forces management to cross their T’s and dot their I’s if they want to get rid of someone.
lol at thinking a “union” would succeed at changing that to something like a 24/72 in a large dept $$$. The shear number of morons you’d have to lower your standards to hire…
In our next negotiation session my unions top priority is going from a 5th day Kelly day ( that we got last contract down from a 7th day Kelly ) to a 4th day Kelly day. Yeah some chuckle fucks work for us and I wouldn’t want them going to any calls for anyone I cared for but you take the good with the bad.
There’s a guy who commented above you whose union is taking his 725-man department from a 3-platoon to 4-platoon system and a 24% raise. Turns out it IS possible, if you fight for it.
We wanted a fourth shift so bad we went and got the state legislature to pass a law helping us do it. Plus, got rid of the local political leadership who opposed us.
Good luck doing that without a union, by the way.
One of the biggest benefits for me coming into this career from working in finance was having a union. Any day in my previous line of work someone could fire you right then and there for literally any reason they want. 0 protections. Even with a rule book, they could skirt around things and put you on the chopping block. Working with a union, if you are trying to fire me for something, it better be in writing what is not allowed. If the city starts doing funky stuff get the union involved. They have a lawyer on retainer if it gets really sticky. Also we had our rep visit the station the other day and straight up told us, " if you receive any write up of any kind, don't sign it. Contact one of us and we'll look it over to make sure it's within guidelines". I can't speak for all unions and departments. I work for a major metro dept so we have a lot of paying members.
Yea, I always hear about employee protections. And people screeching about retaining bad employees. My old Dad was in the Local Electrical. He loved it. I really would like to know about contracts, pay and benefits? And how Unions could help getting things up to average.
My buddy's dept is going through contract negotiations with the City he works for. Both the fop and iaff are in negotiations. The Fop has stated that they are 17% paid lower than other dept of similar size in our state. He's demanding almost 30% raises over 3 years. The city seems to be dragging their feet with negotiations so the fop president did an interview with a local news channel telling them the city is dragging their feet. They can't fill recruit classes, can't retain officers because of surrounding cities have better pay. And I think they are 100+ officers short. Basically saying that the mayor isn't taking public safety seriously. That got back to the mayor and she had an interview then. My point is, without a union, you are kind of just left to what ever scraps the city has left over. Will they get 30%? Probably not. But I'm sure they will see hefty raises. And they wouldn't be getting those hefty raises without a union fighting.
Sounds like a dream, Man. So completely far fetched I can't imagine lol. Thanks for the info!
Don’t forget though a lot of these negotiations are a fight. Cities will fight tooth and nail to keep their money. And even after negotiations are solidified they will continue to look for ways to go around the contract. It’s an ongoing battle but thankfully the iaff has people at the international and state level to help.
Bad employees aren’t somehow not-fireable because there’s a Union, it just requires there to be just cause that is followed through properly.
Look at the pay and benefits of non union departments…they suck ass pretty much across the board. Now I see this as a FF at a department in the PNW with probably one of the best contracts in the nation. I mean, our contract is so good we kind of have an agreement that when we go to IAFF conferences we avoid talking about how great it is unless directly asked because we don’t want our brother to feel shitty about their contract. All of this is to say that my life is good because of the work generations of brothers in union have put in to set us up for success, both on the job and in retirement.
whats your pension like?
> Yea, I always hear about employee protections. And people screeching about retaining bad employees. The screeching about retaining bad employees due to the union is mostly garbage. Because of the employee protections there has to be a clear record of disciplinary/corrective actions before someone can be fired. If that person is really that bad and that record isn't there then management is terrible in addition to the employee, but that is not the union's fault, it is the management's fault.
If a department is retaining bad employees, it's because they have bad leadership unwilling to fix the problem. Been a union FF/EMT for 5+ years. Anytime there has been a significant issue with a FF, there has been documentation and discipline so that, if the problem continues, the proper steps can be taken.
Hear Hear!
I love the local union, but I don't think that's completely true. We see people with 20+ workplace harassment and safety -related complaints just moved to another station in our county. One is banned from 5 of the stations in the county, but the union president is a friend of his straight from recruit class. The union here does many great things, but they do occasionally protect people who shouldn't be in the service, despite documentation.
I'm paid well with solid benefits and employee protections. This is thanks to the union.
Sums it up here plus a good schedule.
Do Unions really on benefit larger Depts? We're rural and low pop. Only 15FFs (5 guys a shift, 3shifts)
When we started our union it was 6 guys a shift, 3 shifts. Doesn't matter if you have 3 guys or 300, unions are beneficial to the workers.
Cool, thanks Man
The resources and support that the IAFF provides to all of its locals is incredibly helpful for smaller locals
Can you elaborate a bit?
You’ll have district reps that you can call up and ask for help with stuff, but unlike when you call up a lawyer, you want get billed for it. They want there locals, especially newly formed ones, to succeed so they are very willing to get you on your feet and going. I believe there is also a fund for bargaining costs for smaller locals that don’t have much money.
They have resources for doing contract negotiations, they have training programs for how to run a local union, they have people you can call for advice when getting your local up and running. And the various conferences are very beneficial, you learn so much and get to meet people who have faced many of the same issues and get their takes on how to handle them as a local.
The biggest thing a union can do for you just based off this comment is bargain for 3 more guys so you guys can get time off and not be automatically forced back for overtime.
I get it. We've been asking for that for Several years. And we do have to run 'short' sometimes, 4 guys. Like now through July when the new budget year starts. OT has been burned. We're a County Dept. 700sqm, pop of 14k, 28k when the city calls for mutual aid. That many guys sounds like a dream loo
Yeah see the union wouldn't let that run short stuff happen. Whatever state your in look up the iaff representative and reach out to them asking for information on how to start a union
That's what I was going to do. I've been there for 18yrs, shift LT now. Heard stories of Union 'threat' back in late 80/early 90s. Heard it was crushed pretty quickly. But that was a long time ago and long forgotten administration. Hell, don't know how many guys I can get on board...probably at least 1/2 to 3/4. So don't know if it's worth trying?
It's always worth trying.
I can't really speak to that, I work for a larger department. I don't know what it's like to work for a small organization like that. But I am pro-union, basically across the board. Employees deserve protection. Without a union you're at the mercy of the powers in charge, and they don't have your best interest at heart.
No, I work for a small combination department and forming a local was the best thing we could have done. Almost immediately after hiring the first career firefighters here the district/management started fucking with them, changing work conditions, schedule, qualified overtime, vacation approvals, etc, everything was subjective. Unionizing put an end to all that. We also get the benefit of comparing our contracts with similar size and demographic departments/towns. This helps keep everyone relatively level in terms of pay and benefits. The one non-union shop in the area has dog shit for pay and much lower benefits. Last year I made three times what firefighters literally next door made. Yes, a lot of that was OT but at least I had the opportunity to get OT!
You also get the benefit of the IAFF and their vast resources, regardless of your Local’s size.
Your small depo has standards put in place by unions nationwide. Even tho y’all aren’t directly affiliated yet your standards for pay, health and safety, time off, ect all fought for by the union and made pretty much standard nationwide. Yes the big department’s contribute the most and probably benefit the most, but to me; that doesn’t mean y’all shouldn’t do your part by supporting and joining. If it’s not ok for everyone, then it’s not ok for anyone. If every small department had the “we don’t need the union” attitude then it wouldn’t be as strong as it is today. Maybe some health and safety laws never get passed. Maybe living wages for fire fighters don’t get fought for on and nationwide scale and trickle down to un-unionize departments.
We said, thanks Man
They could always do more but currently I'm happy. Solid contract with good pay and benefits. Could be better but could be a lot worse.
How do they really accomplish this? Can't the City/County just say F'it and move on?
A key part to public safety unions working well is having binding arbitration. This essentially means that if you can’t come to an agreement with your city/county, you both present viable contracts to an independent arbitrator who picks the package that they feel is fair to both parties and both parties are legally bound to that contract.
Gotcha. As I replied to another... I've been hearing on a local NPR station that Tallahassee, FL, FD has been in arbitration for months/year. Seems if one side is dug in, it could go on with little to no solution?
Florida also has Collective Bargaining in its state constitution
I’m sure you know this as a union officer, but in case anyone else wasn’t familiar collective bargaining rights are not the same as binding arbitration. You can have collective bargaining rights without binding arbitration.
Correct. We have had to resort to binding arbitration once before due to contract impasse but that was 15-ish or so years ago. We are 14 for 14 on winning unfair labor practices so we generally don’t have the county itching for legal battles.
> independent arbitrator who picks the package that they feel is fair to both parties and both parties are legally bound to that contract. How does the independent arbitrator get involved?
Once an impasse has been declared, by either party, they can begin the process of selecting an independent arbitrator. The process is a bit different depending on the arbitration agreement that is in place. Ours there is a list of 9 arbitrators supplied by National Academy of Arbitrators and if an agreement on a single arbitrator cannot be reached the union and county take turns striking arbitrators off the list until only one remains. Other places their arbitrator is selected wholly by an independent panel like the NAA or the American Arbitration Association.
I see. I had no idea that is a trade in this country. Would've thought an attorney would be involved.
Your contract is legally binding. Now they can always do run around and try to manipulate the wording but in the end the rules are the rules.
Sure. But if they don't agree to the contract. I've been hearing on the local NPR station about Tallahassee, FL, FD. They've been in arbitration for months/year. So if the local government says 'No deal', what recourse is there?!
That's the thing with negotiating. It's back and forth until you find an agreement. Worst case you just revert to the previous contract and run with it.
An independent arbitrator will rule and his/her decision is final with a few exceptions. A year process isn’t unheard of. It’s not the quickest of processes.
Florida municipalities have no obligation to accept the arbitrator's decision. It sucks.
I think your confusing negotiations and arbitration. Negotiations are the union and city agreeing to terms of a contract, while arbitration is a neutral third party coming in to help settle the dispute. This is generally binding, so it's agreed that the decision of the arbitrator will be final.
Yup, I totally missed that one. And I can't really remember what they said on the radio. Was a couple of weeks ago. Thanks Man
There can be many many steps to the process. Generally negotiations can go on for as long as you’re willing to negotiate before reaching an agreement or before you decide to bring in a 3rd party to settle the argument. We have 3 year contracts. This means every 3 years we sit across from the city to negotiate. Last contract was straight forward: a 3% raises for each of the following 3 years, no other changes. The process lasted a little over a month and that was just to have our lawyers review everything and get the approval of our body of members while the city administration had to also get l approval at their monthly counsel meeting. That’s about as fast as it can possibly go when you’re working with government. In contrast, we were in negotiations for literally 2 years for the contract before that one. There were several articles the city and the union where at odds with. Once you finally reach an impasse, you can elect to go to “fact finding” or “mediation” in hopes to reach an agreement over the articles (issues) being contested. A “3rd party” state-appointed ‘fact finder’ (mediator) hears the arguments from each side and presents a solution that both the city and the union can either agree on, make adjustments to, or reject completely. There can be quite a bit of time spent in negotiations after the fact finding process. Seeing the opinions of a fact finder/mediator also serves as a barometer for how the next phase might go, and that’s binding arbitration. Essentially the city and the union each present a contract that they are happy with and would sign immediately. The arbitrator looks it all over and chooses which of the two they feel is the most appropriate. There is no “splitting the baby” and no further negotiation or changing your mind after that, whatever the Arbitrator chooses, is the contract.
Together apes stronger
I just want to blow it up lol
Unions are the backbone of a safe and successful fire department.
Our most recent contract got us a 24% raise the first two years and a D shift the third year (going from a 6-week Kelly to a D shift. 2704 hours to 2184). That would not happen without the Union and our political connections.
Would you mind DMing me, or posting here, the main hit points you used to convince your city to get a fourth platoon? It’s something I’d like to bring to the table even though I know we don’t have a shot
Man it’s a lot to unpack what happened over 10 or so negotiations sessions. For us it was the fact no one in Florida (other than two small city departments) have a 4th platoon. We will be the only FRS (Florida Retirement System) to offer it. The hope is it will lessen the attrition we had to other departments and the fiscal cost associated with that (on boarding costs and overtime costs to backfill vacancies) Surrounding departments we lose people to have a 3-week Kelly (2496 annual hours) so we (union and county) decided we needed to do something drastically different.
Thank you. The attrition what I’ve been zoning in on. The last few years everyone has been so short staffed it’s made it so easy to jump elsewhere. Seems like every time we get staffing right it just goes back down the drain
To add to that we capitalized (if you can call it that) on our county’s commitment to better the mental health of our members. So more time off helps with that .
whats the personnel size of your dept?
Currently around 725-ish in the field
you are lucky. i feel the bigger the dept, the more difficult it is to make that 4th shift. congrats man. huge win.
What approximate region? We’re going into negotiations this year
I’m in the mid Atlantic area
Nice. I’m northeast. Thank you.
>It’s something I’d like to bring to the table even though I know we don’t have a shot Same, we struggle staffing 3 shifts. Imagine trying to staff a 4th.
Congrats. You're going to love the extra time off
24 percent raise? you must have been getting screwed for a long time before this happened. it seems you are a captain. may i ask how long you have been in that position and what is your salary. you can private message me.
Not really screwed. The departments around us that we lose people to got a large raise in their contract which took effect right before we negotiated ours.
im miami dade. not city of miami. i feel like the opportunity to make money long term is there because of the size of the dept and all specialties. but i feel like actual regular pay isnt all that great for miami cost of living. ill be maxed out next august as a firefighter emt. it would be the middle of my eight year. i will be at 102k. sounds great. 6 figures with no overtime, not even a medic or any specialty pay besides a small amount for my state inspector and state driver. but it feels like 70k down here
Wish you boys would come back to the FPF but I know that’s a deep wound. We all got caught up to speed in Ottawa by Paul (your secretary I think). But yes, if we were already on a 3-week I think it would be tougher to justify a 4th shift for the 300 hour savings unlike the 600 hours we are saving off a 6 week.
im not aware of many things. whats FPF and why is that deep wound? i might learn something here
I also sent you a PM
There’s a reason why there is negative rhetoric for unions in all industries and it mostly comes from the corporate/management level and a small amount from the low level scabs. For example, Walmart does everything in its power to stomp out union activity. Walmart is also known to pay people as little as possible and has a large percentage of employees that rely on government assistance. It doesn’t matter the industry. If you’re told not to unionize or how “bad” unions are, I can assure you it’s not for the betterment of the common on the floor firefighter. And just because unions help all workers, even the “bad” employees, just remember any day you could be the shitbag in managements eye and when that time comes I want to be in a union.
And if you’re looking to unionize, call IAFF and get the ball rolling. They will lead you through the steps. That’s what the international association of firefighters is there for.
Unless you’re a combination department because they despise the existence of vollies to an unreasonable extent.
This is inaccurate. They have standards so per diem/vollies aren't filling shifts (and stealing OT) which are usually staffed by professional firefighters. There are plenty of combination departments who have locals/CBAs.
My department has no full time staffing. My current understanding is that they would tell us to pound sand. I’d love to know if I’m wrong.
I guess ive always understood combination departments as fulltime with per diem and or call/volunteer.
We are part time and volunteer, thus my questions and pessimism.
I don't think you would be eligible unfortunately
You’ll never think about the union until you need them and they save your ass from budget cuts.
Your Union also fights for your rights at the State level, such as pension and workers comp benefits.
We negotiated a hazard pay that pays us 7% every day we don't meet the NFPA 1710 criteria of 4 FFs per engine. Our state IAFF is reimbursing our union thousands of dollars in lawyers fees as this fight helps every other union in the state with their fight, we did the ground work, succeeded, and have set precedent with an arbitration board.
Can you go into further detail on this? 45 person small local that has the budget to staff appropriately but won’t and unfortunately my union doesn’t want to push the issue as much as I think we are obligated to. Looking for ideas to get 3 person engines tactfully and how the IAFF can help us do this. Thanks
Our union (Provincially) has successfully lobbied the government to make a list of cancers and diseases presumptive to our work. In other words, we will be eligible for workers compensation benefits without having to prove the cancer is work related - so long as you’ve worked the required amount of years. [link](https://www.bcpffa.net/bc-presumptive-coverage).
Likewise covid, respiratory, PTSD, mental shit, and lots of other issues as well. They protect you putting your ass on the line rather than kicking you to the curb.
Anyone arguing that unions aren’t good for workers has fallen for the anti-union propaganda that corporations have been spewing for decades. They’re terrified of a unified labor movement asking for living wages and protections because it cuts into profits. Plain and simple. No matter your profession, if you want to be your own advocate and dictate how you expect to be treated as an employee, organize.
👆
Strong leaders can get a lot of good done for your department, however a self centered prick can create a department no one likes working for. Choose who will represent you very carefully. I wasn’t around when my dept joined the international in the 80’s btw. If you have any specific questions though feel free to PM me.
Thanks Man. Will do some digging and reach out if I need to! Stay safe!
You’re asking a couple questions that would take hours for me to answer. I’m the current President of my local I’ve been in for almost 2 decades. I was not here when it formed but I know that it takes a lot of work to get it done but it’s worth it. Reach out to your local IAFF DVP for info and also they will help all the way through. I couldn’t imagine doing this job without being in a union.
Maybe no time soon...but would you mind if I reached out of we start this path? Would do different, same, worked for us, etc?
Ofcourse! Message me down the road and I will do everything I can to help. At the very least get you the info to someone close to you that will help, the IAFF and your state union have members that do the work of starting a local specifically and will know your area the best. Every area is different and has best practices for getting it done. If there is a nearby department to you that is union they will also help you out. I see in other comments your a smaller department but don’t let that slow you down. I know a local with even less members than you have. There is no negative to having your own union in my opinion. Will there be struggles and arguments? Hell yeah. But there probably already is. There is no perfect place, but I assure you working under a contract is the best thing! For so many reasons but one that is often not thought of (most talk about protections, wages, benefits which are all great) is there are so many facets in this line of work having a document that answers many questions about how something is supposed to be done (just like SOPs) makes our jobs that much easier. If there was no contract (union) then the answer could be different every time based on management, officers, elected officials and that just creates havoc in an already stressful environment. I personally believe every worker should be unionized, because having a seat at the table to hammer out best practices for yourself and your employer that’s agreed upon that both sides can then reference all the time is amazing. If management truly understood their employee and vice versa and worked together everyone thrives. It’s not about demanding all the money in the world from the employer, in our line of work if we used up all the tax dollars then someone would lose their job, us, so that would be stupid. It’s about finding the common goal of making it the best job so workers can do the best job which makes the employers even better. Man I could go on. Best of luck to you
Awesome Man, thanks
I was an original member. Best decision I've ever made. The admin at the time decided to take away our Kelly's and lower our hourly rate to compensate, "but don't worry, your annual earnings won't change." Now I have direct control over my circumstances and a playbook everyone abides by. Unlike other unions, our fate is decided at our level, not national or international. Without unions, labor relations in the country would amount to serfdom.
As others have said, having a union is a HUGE benefit. It provides representation and protects for the rights of fire fighters. Schedule disputes, policy changes, representation for corrective action, and so much more. If my department wasn't unionized I don't know if I'd be here.
Absolutely beneficial. We get paid more, have more time off, and more protection from managers who have personal vendettas
Idiots out here saying “unions just protect bad employees”. Not sure where they are working but my union didn’t hire those employees, that was the city. We’re just here to make sure they have fair representation. If they suck, make the case and get rid of them. We don’t want to work with dangerous firefighter either. Don’t blame us for a problem you created!
Love our union. I have great benefits, retirement, time off, pay and working conditions. All bargained for by our own guys from the line. Couldn’t imagine working somewhere and letting the Chief do whatever he wants.
I get it. In our situation, it's not the Chief. It's 'The Big House'; our admin building lol
It’s way better I’ve done both . Union strong
Unions are great until they sell out for politicians see Jacksonville FL when IAFF and FOP both agreed to give up guaranteed pensions for new hires (they just got them back under new mayor), and Reedy Creek or whatever the hell they want to be called now. Union went hard for governor sole takeover and control even gave him an axe, then year later is complaining about new pay and benefits. Or when they don’t support fellow unions. In Florida police and fire unions, corrections have special carve outs of new anti union laws. No paycheck deductions for unions dues, new signup requirements etc. But most of the public safety unions say on the sidelines and don’t say anything.
Here’s the thing- There’s unions with and without contracts. I work for a metro department and we have a union, but the union does not have a contract with the city. Therefore it’s just a chest-thumping drinking club and only a small percentage of the job is in it. Voters would have to approve a contract, and the voters have said no because big business in the city spends millions in campaign $$ to tell the voters unions are bad. They win every time. Truth is they don’t want us to unionize because other industries in town might unionize, then it can cut into private business profits as workers demand better wages, better insurance, etc. it’s always about $.
Unions are the backbone of the United States workforce. Especially in firefighting.
I worked in a non union state and a union state. My benefits are better and 200 dollars bi weekly cheaper in the union state.
In my department the firefighters and admin are two separate unions. In NJ you can be IAFF or FMBA, we’re both IAFF. I work in an urban community and cannot imagine working there without a union…everything is a battle with the city and the IAFF usually wins in our case.
The only negative to Unions is they have to protect the shit bags as much as the good workers.
We are probably going to lose unlimited sick and unsupervised medical leave because of bags of shit. Some members are out for 60% of the year. It's pathetic
Decent pay with amazing benefits. You need to have an active membership though to stop people who would use union positions to further themselves.
Our Union is the tit’s. Highly recommend. They go to bad for us during contract negotiations, landing us great pay, benefits, and PTO. As far as bad apples go, it’s usually the crew they are assigned to during probation not realizing it or being too lazy to do anything about before union protection kicks in. There’s not many, but a few. I would say that the benefits though greatly outweigh the cons. If you’re looking for ideas, most unions have MOU’s publicly facing on their website.
I was involved in a union prior to firefighting, now I serve on our e board, it has been eye opening what our money goes to (at least where I am). We have a lot of people that specifically lobby for safer gear, better training, and working conditions that I have seen first hand. Im a big supporter.
I was a charter founding member of one union from my first fire job. It was full time non union when I hired in and we unionized. Overall it’s a great experience. In a job that’s highly sought after, that extra protection is a god send. You can be replaced in an instant so just having that team mentality and covering your behind from the upper management is great. And I can’t speak for every department, but my starting pay would be about 38k a year if we didn’t have a union. Being able to bargain for your salary is great. Our town admin tried to end pension and go with 401k instead but were unsuccessful, due in large part to us having a union with our own money and lawyers to defend us.
President of an IAFF Local in California checking in. I just look at us compared to our BC’s — we’re represented and they are not. Our BC’s get raises and perks when the City feels like doing it. When they face discipline there is no representation or access to attorneys on legal retainer. They have to do whatever is forced on them by City Hall and the Chief. We get regular raises and negotiate every two years. We get incentives and representation. We have a kick ass law firm on retainer that specializes in fire locals. Nothing gets forced on us until we talk or meet and confer. California Professional Firefighters (CPF) has also done a ton to get presumptive cancer laws passed for us here. A lot of people do get annoyed that their per capita dues to IAFF and CPF go to fund Democrat candidates. You run into the dichotomies where maybe a Dem rep has voted favorably on fire related topics but then in every other facet, votes or supports things you don’t believe in. That can be a tough for some people to understand.
Thanks Man. Yea, single issue politics is not good for anyone. BCs? Not familiar with that abbreviation? How often do you need to call in the attorneys. Granted, we are a Very small Dept. I made a second post in the sub for another question. I'd appreciate it if you checked!
Battalion Chiefs. We don’t need them all the time but when we do we take up a bunch of time so a retainer is great. We use them for contract negotiations and to just run a set of legal eyes over policy proposals, situations that come up, members with discipline issues, etc. You’ll want a good fire local lawyer when you form. Your first contract negotiation with your municipality could be contentious since they won’t be used to it.
Ahhh, we don't have those. Too small. But around this area of the country they're simply called Bat/s. Amd YUP! If we were to do this...i can't imagine the push back from the County office! Kinda scary actually...
What part of the country and how many firefighters large are you? That would help me understand your needs better.
We're in the SE. Rural S GA. We're a combination Dept. 15 paid (5per/3 shifts). And 'generously' rostered 50 volunteers.
99% of the paid FF in my country are in one union, it has paid off nationally with pay negotiations, conditions and personally the union have assisted me with issues around injury management ect. Id never been in a union previously but with at times how our organisation treats us we need the protection they can provide.
And that's exactly why we're looking into it. Thanks Man
Unions are a lot and annoying sometimes. If I were I business owner or administrator I’d hate unions. But i am not if you were gunna be on a fire dept best to join union.
I work less than 100 days a year and make enough to buy a house in a HCOL area. That's in large part because of the union and their negotiating
The union keeps morons employed, those same morons climb the career ladder, do nothing to make conditions better for their employees, and then the union lobbies for better conditions for employees. It’s a nihilistic circle of idiocy. The union does literally nothing for states for that don’t have bargaining agreements, yet still pressure you to pay your dues and you get nothing in return. I’ll take my downvotes. Enjoy your iaff mugs and bumper stickers. The only reason the union remains relevant is because of cowardly department leadership.
Unions don’t keep morons employed. Management that doesn’t want to do the work of properly holding employees accountable is what keeps morons employed. The union just forces management to cross their T’s and dot their I’s if they want to get rid of someone.
I’m so glad I work in California. Our union is awesome and has the power to make changes.
Wow, you have no clue how unions operate
Keeping bad employees employed, for longer is all though. They'll always get pushed out.
You’re an idiot if you haven’t unionized in this job
Good job on being an ass
They are pretty good at keeping and getting jobs back of those who don’t much deserve staying employed…
Unions don’t keep morons employed. Management that doesn’t want to do the work of properly holding employees accountable is what keeps morons employed. The union just forces management to cross their T’s and dot their I’s if they want to get rid of someone.
Enjoy your 24/48
lol at thinking a “union” would succeed at changing that to something like a 24/72 in a large dept $$$. The shear number of morons you’d have to lower your standards to hire…
Whatever puts you to sleep at night, I’ll take my stellar pay, no transport ems, and good schedule. Over being tough with no “morons.”
Also adequate staffing, we still get 5 guys on a rig, can’t say the same for many other places.
And here I feel 4 dudes is over kill for 99% of things… 5?! I mean if most are out of shape blow hards I guess it helps
lol, aka staying as lazy and over paid as possible
In our next negotiation session my unions top priority is going from a 5th day Kelly day ( that we got last contract down from a 7th day Kelly ) to a 4th day Kelly day. Yeah some chuckle fucks work for us and I wouldn’t want them going to any calls for anyone I cared for but you take the good with the bad.
O you get more than 4-5 Kelly days a year? Crazy…
There’s a guy who commented above you whose union is taking his 725-man department from a 3-platoon to 4-platoon system and a 24% raise. Turns out it IS possible, if you fight for it.
Double that 725 and then some, now add a 4th shift.
We wanted a fourth shift so bad we went and got the state legislature to pass a law helping us do it. Plus, got rid of the local political leadership who opposed us. Good luck doing that without a union, by the way.
Lmao, what a fuckin bootlicker
Lol at the downvotes
Usually it's because people hate the hypocrisy of a person benefiting from current and past union efforts while claiming a union is worthless.
They know it’s true but don’t like it being said out loud
I work for a non union department and there are just as many drawbacks as benefits from it. I could go either way and be happy.