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Minus the overseas trip this is not out of the question, shit my dad was in the Army and my mom had a entry level position at a florist shop and this described my families experience in the 90s. This was in Virginia though
I was in the army and it transcends class because all your basic needs are taken care of. Your dad would have been paid BAH (Basic Allowance for Housing) and possibly BAS, and that’s in addition to a paycheck. Great healthcare and 30 days of paid leave per year. The pay isn’t much but all your basic needs are taken care of outside of that paycheck.
You mention it was the 90’s so I’m sure he didn’t have it quite as good as today but still it can’t really be called middle class. The military is really its own economic class if anything.
Anything E5 and above is firmly middle class and only gets better. I'm not even in a high CoL area, and I am just a hair under 6 figures through pay/BAH/BAS, not including benefits.
I've come to realize 90% of people who complain about military pay outside junior enlisted are just bad with money and would have those problems whatever job they held.
I think a lot of the people who complain about military pay just have no real world adult work experience. By the time you factor in all the extras and benefits that accrue above base salary you're making the equivalent of like 40-50K/yr basically fresh out of high school. Throw in all the other benefits (post 9/11 GI Bill, VHA) and it's a heckuva a deal.
Most of the people I met with PTSD had awful parents that led to them living a bad lifestyle when they were vulnerable.
Everyone I know in the military loved it because they hung around Okinawa or France and maybe worked on aircraft that bombed people in other countries.
Infantry is different than that, but the military needs an amazing number of mechanics and IT staff.
What a strange, completely irrelevant point to make that lays your statistical illiteracy bare.
Of course most people with PTSD weren't in the military - less than 1% of the population are enlisted.
The *rates* of PTSD tell a very different story.
- About 11 to 20 out of every 100 veterans (or between 11 and 20%) who served in operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom have PTSD in a given year.
- About 12 out of every 100 Gulf War Veterans (or 12%) have PTSD in a given year.
- About 15 out of every 100 Vietnam veterans (15%) were currently diagnosed with PTSD when the most recent study of them (the National Vietnam Veteran Readjustment Study) was conducted in the late 1980s. It’s believed that 30% of Vietnam veterans have had PTSD in their lifetime.
- About 5% of the whole US population (including vets) has PTSD in any given year.
It should surprise noone that serving in a military that's been involved in conflicts without interruption for decades *dramatically* increases (45%-600%) the likelihood someone suffers from PTSD.
You should educate yourself. PTSD is far more common amongst non-veterans than you might think.
"Studies show that about 15% to 43% of girls and 14% to 43% of boys go through at least one trauma. Of those children and teens who have had a trauma, 3% to 15% of girls and 1% to 6% of boys develop PTSD. Rates of PTSD are higher for certain types of trauma survivors."
https://www.ptsd.va.gov/understand/common/common_children_teens.asp
All things considered, these both come with pretty extensive benefits for the veteran and dependents (depending on where you live).
Source: was wounded and have PTSD
Yeah that's always the catch. It's an awesome deal for about 99% of people. Some lose the reverse-lottery and wouldn't have signed up for millions up front if they knew what would happen.
I've had a few girlfriends who were veterans over the years and dated into a 'military family' at one point in my life, it seems like the disability rate for anyone that actually is career military is insanely high.
PTSD, agoraphobia etc. My ex-girlfriend's mom didn't really go into details but from what I gathered from conversations here and there, she was sexually assaulted and somehow the incident left her permanently disabled. She needs a cane to go anywhere.
That pay isn't that great of a deal if you factor those kind of things in. Hell, if it was such a great deal, why do we have so many homeless veterans?
I don’t even think junior enlisted should have anything to complain about. When I was a single soldier in the barracks every pay weekend I’d go blow everything I had at the club/on stupid crap and for the next two weeks I’d have no money, but I never once had to worry about my living situation or food. My first two or so years I wasted every single cent I had with zero consequences. Now that’s financial freedom. As for the soldiers who are smart enough to save or even invest their money, they can come out far ahead of their nonmilitary peers.
When I was in the Army, I served with an E-6 who was on his 4th tour to Iraq/Afghan. He volunteered again and again. He was also obsessive about spending nothing and letting Uncle Sam provide for everything. When we were stateside, he lived in the barracks, only ate at the D-Fac, never went out. Think he kept an old car with his parents. Never so much as ordered pizza.
He told me he'd saved/invested over 250k and that was in 2006. He said he would volunteer for tours until his 20 years were up (he had about 8 left). Guy probably has 3 million now.
Interestingly he was very selective about promotions. He had already turned down a unit transfer that came with E-7. He told me he didn't want to be an E-8 or 9 because he was about maxing out the money with as little responsibility as he could get away with.
I didn't like his mercenary attitude. Also got the feeling he volunteered for tours so he could get the chance to legally shoot people.
I do the same with deployments, I'm getting close to double digits, but I doubt I will hit it by 20, close to retirement, and I want to retire at 38. Definitely dont live frugally, trying to enjoy life but still put enough away. Im finding that the more money i save, the less I want to spend any of it.
For the last few, I brought back an extra 15-20K, I'll buy a new fishing rod/gun/graphics card and tuck the rest away.
I was junior enlisted and was paying my own college. I lived in bad housing with my wife and newborn. I’ve always been financially savvy. So even jr enlisted can have some decent middle class vacations in the local area.
Yea, sorry, army pay and benefits with a second income is definitely not lower or even mid middle class. The health benefits alone will add thousands to several thousand a year on average in saved expenses for a family with kids.
I was middle middle class. We had the house, cars, family thing. Vacations were every few years and I spent two days in Canada as my only time leaving the country until I funded it myself as an adult. Two of the four of us attended 4-year colleges, and we both went to the cheapest place we could after scholarships taking out loans for everything that wasn't scholarships.
We were blessed, but OP is insane. I can count on one hand the number of people I knew growing up taking international vacations and having family finance their college.
We were about the same. Had the house, 1-2 cars depending on when we’re talking, took a couple small trips in 18 years and everyone had to figure out college for themselves. OP calls it a holiday, so either he’s British or he’s an American that grew up pretty well off.
broke, not heath insurance, a car with 200K miles. Sounds like a winner. BTW you can still get a house where Al was supposed to live for well under $300K.
Hard disagree. My father was a teacher right out of college in 1971. He made the equivalent of $65k/year his first year. He was able to have 2 kids, buy a house, and a new car in the space of just a few years. We went to Walt Disney World every few years.
Everything I just said is crazy-talk for a first year teacher on one income in 2024.
Edit: Spelling. And to add that we were lower middle class at our best.
One of my good friends is a teacher. Her husband watches the kids to save on daycare costs, but even he has to work part time or they can't afford the bills. They take no vacations at all, but have a house and a couple of older cars.
But that isn't overseas trips every 5 years. My dad was probably in a similar boat, but we weren't taking overseas vacations ever, let alone every 5 years
> We went to Walt Disney World every few years.
We went to Disney World like every other year, but my parents were able to afford that because they bought into a Disney-run time share back in the late 80's[1] and almost always driving down (I think we flew down only a couple of times). You got all sorts of benefits from being in the program, which included discounts on tickets to the parks, early access to the parks via the Disney-run bus system, etc. All of these perks were slowly rolled back over the years. We were a dual-income family though. I can't recall if my mom was back to work or not in '89, but probably around that time.
[1] I think it was '89, I remember spending time in the "kids room" playing Little Nemo Dreammasters on a NES while they were somewhere getting the sales pitch.
A teacher up north in a LCOL area sure.
My father taught in PA, made a good salary and had a 3 bedroom house in a LCOL area.
He then moved to Florida and took a huge paycut... Teachers made $12K a year I believe in Florida at the time. He built a house for $40K out in a very rural area. This was in 1979. Vacations for us were driving up to see family up north.
Even then, a middle class family can easily pay for in-state college for 3 kids if they plan ahead. The key is to open a 529 plan the day you find out you’re expecting. $250/month for 18 years and your kid will have 107k to spend on whatever school they want- even just $150/month and they’ll have 65k for college which is enough for a 4 year degree at most schools without your kid working at all (though I think it’s dumb to not work while in school, need some fun money and early investing cash flow to establish good habits)
What you are not accounting for is the dramatically higher rate of college tuition increases than any mutual fund is going to get you in a 529. I watched the State college I went to increase an average of 10.5 percent compounded year-over-year for 35 years.
I thought I was saving enough for my kids too. Then I watched tuition skyrocket beyond my ability to keep up.
As a kid born in rthe late 70s, I grew up thinking that I'd be living in a house like the one in Home Alone or in some huge suite overlooking Manhattan. Back then, the message was - "go to college and all of that will be yours!"
No shit. Literally went to a liberal arts college in 1990 and it was like $1000 a month for my parents. And that was because I lived at home. And had a full time job. Three kids would have been a huge burden.
Oversees vacation? Yeah, whatever. Stationwagon trip across the country on Christmas maybe.
3 bedroom house also meant like a 1500 sq ft house. Not like today's 3 bedroom 2500 sq ft houses. I actually remember when there was a 3000 sq ft house built down the road from us and we marveled at how huge it was.
I was about to say that, I live in New England and I have 3bd/2baths 1300-2000 sq feet all around for 200-300k, you are 2-3 hours from New York or Boston but they are plentiful
The only thing upper was the oversea vacation every 5 year, but even then, middle class could have afforded at least 1 oversea vacation.
The main thing that makes this 400k salary is tuition and housing going up astronomically
I live in a low COL area, but my first reaction is *of course* it's possible on 150k.
Median HHI for my area is under 60k, so if you couldn't do it on 150k you are doing something wrong.
TIL I was upper-middle class.
I grew up in a decent size 3-bedroom house, 2 cars, annual family road trip holiday (usually 3 weeks during summer in our minivan touring the west coast), 2 of us 3 kids attended college (my brother was in the Army).
We did it with just my father working for the school district making ~$50k salary in the mid-90s, equivalent to a $100k job now. And that's in Upstate NY where taxes eat up a lot of that income.
We lived comfortably but we were definitely not upper-middle class.
He may be overselling it a bit but he’s definitely not wrong. Remove the overseas vacations and cut the number of college tuitions to 1-2 from 2-3 and he’s spot on.
Ikr!?
I distinctly recall my dad freaking out about a roof replacement circa 1999-2000. I very clearly remember him losing his shit when he realized the roof was leaking into the house. The cost to replace the house's roof was very high relative to what he made.
I’m 40, this almost exactly describes my middle class childhood. And my mom didn’t work until I was in grade school. But add in a cabin, quads, snowmobiles…
This is BS. You can have all of that with an 80k household if you live in a LCOL midwest city and send the kids to JC for 2 years.
Cut out the overseas vacation because that isn't middle class. That's upper class shit.
Overseas vacation for 5 every 5 years isn’t even that bad if you plan it and depending where you go.
$250 a month / 60 months is $15k.
Flights from Denver to Paris in March 2025 are going for as little as $514 - round up to $3k to include taxes and luggage.
$600 night air bnb for an entire house in the heart of Paris for 7 nights - $5k after fees and taxes.
$7k left for groceries, eating out, shows, events, transport, shopping.
And I’m sure you can all agree you wouldn’t need to spend $1k a day.
Gotta remember that the people responding have a 50/50 chance of not being out of high school. 75% probably aren't out of college. They're just getting told that everything is unaffordable and believing it. It really isn't as bad as it's made out to be.
Yeah, this is kinda boggling my mind. We made $460k last year, and we have 4 overseas vacations this year for a total of 5 weeks.
With those $460k we have a free cash flow of nearly $15k/month. It'd be pretty easy to go every month tbh, but obviously our savings rate is huge.
Our household income is less than 400k for sure, we own our home, own 2 cars, and vacation to Europe every 6 months at least. No kids, that’s the kicker. Kids are expensive.
I could in my relatively LCOL area on my own at just under that. I’m also getting married to someone with very little debt and a reasonable pay for the area so even better.
Wages do rise, big cities tend to have far higher wages than countrysites. Like, living in Kansas you are going to make less than in LA.
The issue is, that homes are far less elastic to demand, than wages and stuff in the store, because you can't just create more land. If there is a home on 1km², you are not suddenly going to have two homes on the same space, because the USA isn't going to magically increase in size.
So demand for living space tends to not be met (specifically if everyone wants a SFH, and you zone accordingly).
Depends on the location. Where I live, to buy a 3 bedroom 2 bath will cost you around $550k. After taxes, insurance and HOA, you’re looking at a $3200/month payment (if you put down 20% to start). A single income of $80k with a house in genuinely unheard of. Especially in socal.
My wife parents live in Southern California living off a single income. Her mom is a teacher and makes around 70k a year and they go on vacation multiple times a year. They don’t buy new stuff such as boats and cars. They always buy used so it’s way cheaper. Imo that is why they can afford it because they don’t pay extra to have something new.
She more than likely makes more than $70k a year. I'm not too sure of any school district in SB County that doesn't pay credentialed 1st-year teachers right at $70k a year. Maybe in the middle of nowhere but that would even be an extreme LCOL area.
You obviously owe me nothing, but you can’t dox one person in a whole school district lol. SB county is huge, I have lots of teacher friends in the area, it’s pretty safe to say all districts pay over $70k after 5 years, with in a credential. She makes more than $70k and still has two months off each year, in a very lcol area, that’s nothing to complain about.
They probably have an extremely low mortgage because they’ve been in their house for a long time. And someone working for an entire lifetime likely has a nice cushion of savings. So that’s not really a good benchmark for California. Someone starting out would easily need to make 3x that in order to achieve the same lifestyle with the same assets.
Yep. I live in Ohio. totally possible here.
Blows my mind, I see people get hired at my company fresh out of college and the first thing they do is buy a brand new car and a big ass house they don't need. I know a guy with one kid who has a 5 bedroom house. Has to have a studio for his wife, and extra rooms in case his family comes to stay. Fuck that, my family wants to come they can stay in a hotel.
I bought a house in the middle of nowhere and waited years before buying car with a loan. Spent years driving junkers. Now I'm almost 40, and yeah, I have a decent life. I have kids, my wife is a stay at home mom, and we can do fun stuff like go on yearly trips. I'm still budget conscience. My kids are 13, and last year was the first time we flew anywhere as a family, and we stayed in a Hampton Inn so we got free breakfast every morning.
You can have a great couples European vacation for a week for $5k. For a family of 4 maybe double it. Thats $10k every 5 years. So $164 per month savings?
Its not even, we make 200k and have a 4 bedroom, kids, 3 cars and could afford annual overseas trips. If you’re planning well they aren’t that much more expensive than domestic
In the 90's I don't think we needed passports for Mexico or Canada. I know that's not exactly overseas but it counts as a proper out of country vacation.
lol in the 90s we used to pop over to the US for birthday parties because the town there had a pool. The van would be filled with kids and we had no notes from parents or passports. The guard would be like,
"what's up"
"Going to the pool!"
"Nice, have fun"
Off we go.
That same land crossing is now an interrogation every time, even if it's just me. I couldn't imagine trying to bring other people's children across.
Dude, every land crossing with Canada is an interrogation. I could probably fit dozens of airport entries into the time one border crossing agent spent with me during one of my trips back from Windsor. All business travel, all alone, all nothing to declare.
The requirements changed in the late 2000s/early 2010s. I went to Niagara shortly after I graduated high school because the drinking age was 19, so roughly 2008 and all I needed was a birth certificate to cross.
Interestingly, in Europe it changed in the other direction a bit before that.
Schengen area is awesome.
Austria is a tiny country and it used to be right next to the iron curtain. The closest capital from the capital of Austria is just 50km away, but in the 80s and before that it could have also been on the moon and would have been just as easy to reach.
You had to have a passport to enter any other country around Austria that wasn't behind the iron curtain, and you'd always have to budget at least an hour for waiting for the border crossing.
Now it's all Schengen area, and the worst that happens there is that you need to slow down to 30km/h at the border and drive by a grim looking border guard with an oversized gun.
I was born in 1977 and we fit every part of this description except the overseas trip. We were very comfortable but the first time I set foot on foreign soil (not counting Canada) was the age of 27. Even counting Canada it was like Niagara Falls once at like 15, and then not again until 22.
Also only 25 percent of people had bs degrees at that time and pressumably they would mostly come from upper class families so only some of the middle class families did 4 years college
Grew up solidly middle to lower middle class and yeah I could count one hand the number of families I knew that had been overseas even once.
That is some upper class stuff not at all middle. It was considered a once in a lifetime sort of thing. My mom went as an exchange student in the 60s, never got to go back. Not to mention most kids didn’t go to college back then (80s & 90s), roughly 30/40%. I think 3 people in my entire graduating class of around 500 went to an out of state school and the rest state schools if anywhere at all.
Middle class families in the 1990s didn't go overseas every five years. Also each family member didn't have a computer and a pocket computer. The 1990s (or the 80s, or the 70s, 60s, 50s) weren't some magic time where every middle class person was rich.
Younger generations have this weird idea where they think the TV show Friends is real and we lived in some financial utopia in the 90s. The reality was that most families had a shitty tv in their house, and that's about it. Vacations consisted of camping and public pools. Also we walked both ways uphill.
Grew up solid middle class in the Midwest during the 90s. We had two cars, a three bedroom (though not in great shape) house. Both parents had bachelor's degrees. Both parents worked full time.
We went on vacation for two weeks each year, but we camped. Had a small boat. Had a riding lawn mower (which was also a status symbol at the time).
To afford all this, parents carried massive amounts of credit card debt which ultimately undid them.
This account is suspended as of at least 2 days a ago, but is somehow still posting. I lurk a lot in here and there seems to be a lot of this kinda stuff happening
Nah, they described a 90s sitcom family that they think was real life.
I can’t even count how many times I’ve seen people try to make these arguments by literally using the Simpsons as an example of how life used to be in the 90s
I never learned to ride a bike as a kid cause the road we lived on was sand, we were too poor to afford a dirt road lol. It's weird to see people talking about this weird fantasy 90s class distinctions, don't get me wrong it was an awesome decade to grow up in, but it definitely wasn't utopian like the OP's dream.
My parents told me we were middle class when they made ~20k/yr in the early 90s. Then when my mom married my step dad in the late 90s he made 80k and we lived like hell damn kings in my mind lol. He also swore we were middle class
This mother fucker is dreaming lol. We didn't do yearly trips or international trips every 5 years. If you have a small home, a roof repair or replacement really isn't that bad.
We did 2-3 road trips per year but it was to visit family and we stayed with family
Staying in even a holiday inn was a luxury, one time ever did my parents book two rooms, one for themselves and one for us kids and it felt like being a millionaire
and all of that wouldnt even be anywhere near 400k even if you had a 5k/month mortgage and 10k/month living expenses (both of which would be insanely high btw) thats still only 180k per year. tack on 20k per year for those vacations and youre only halfway to 400k
I can assured you, $400k is waaaaay more than enough for all this. People making $400k can take multiple overseas trips a year if they want, lol. Unless they live to the absolute end of their means for other expenses.
Our yearly HHI is 300k and we can afford a fulltime nanny, private school, putting 60k a year towards retirement, and multiple vacations a year where we fly. We have a road trip vacation about once a month. Although, we might have to cut back on air travel once our youngest won't be a lap child anymore. We live in a MCOL city, so we wouldn't be able to afford all that if we lived somewhere HCOL.
400k-500k is probably what we would need for the same lifestyle in a HCOL area.
This. My wife and I pull about $300k and because we didn't buy a house we couldn't afford we can do whatever we want. A lot of people making this kind of money are stupud with money and buy a house and cars they have no business buying.
My household income is around $225K and not only do we have everything in this meme, but we also have a very large savings balance.
I don’t feel like there’s anything we need we can’t afford. One key piece is making sure you live in an area with low cost of living.
Most of the complaints come from people who finance cars that cost 2x the annual income, and put vacations on credit cards. Any moderately earning person with sensible budgeting can do quite fine still
When people talk about low cost of living areas in this context, they’re not talking about rural areas with no jobs. They’re talking about medium sized cities with plenty of good jobs but without the dramatically higher living costs of somewhere like NYC or San Francisco.
Yeah, this is goofy. I make less than that and go on a big overseas trip once a year, a ski trip, and maybe 3-4 other domestic vacations a year. With the family. While saving.
Absolutely bizarre anyone would think $400k buys you one overseas trip every five years
Its funny because it seemed like people were poorer in the 90s. Everybody owned a home because they are what we call today “starter” homes. Also, foreign cars were rare. All my friends parents had explorers, blazers, berretas, or minivans. Eating out seemed like a rare event and luxury restaurants were Red Lobster and Olive Garden.
That’s just normal life, somehow Americans got caught in this McMansion, Big Car, TakeOut, + services.
Yes the cost of living has outpaced salaries but there has definitely been a lifestyle creep.
The part of overseas travel is particularly interesting. Only 10% of Americans even had a passport in 1994, compared to ~40% today. Most people weren't really going overseas back then. Though maybe people near the borders were going to Canada or Mexico when rules were more lax and you didn't need a passport to cross
I think it would be really interesting to see how credit cards, take aways, restaurants, the fast food industry and the processed food industry has grown in the last 35 years.
Back then most people made almost every meal from scratch.
And they still can if they want to.
I always laugh when I watch younger couples house hunting because they all turn their nose at homes all of us and our friends grew up in. As a kid I never thought about if a house was nice or not when visiting friends. HGTV has warped our minds into thinking we all need gray open concept new builds. I get a real kick out of 2-3 person families buying homes that are ~3k sqft
Also internet, cell phones, fuel efficient and upgraded safety vehicles, no land lines, international calling, no collect calls unless you're in prison, vaccines, advanced healthcare, post 9/11, AI, broader access to travel, GPS, energy star, better insulation options, all season fruits and veggies.
What I'm describing right now is a world that has never been so accessible, yeah it's gonna cost more.
Edit: landlines still exist but Noone is getting strangled by or "tripping over the phone" anymore.
These weirdos thinking the family from Home Alone were middle class, when a simple google search shows they were the top 1%. They did stories on the house value plus neighborhood value and said it would be considered the top 1% based on today’s value so imagine what it was like in the 1990s.
There is much, much more that goes along with that lifestyle today than in the 1980’s. Now you’re two cars can practically drive themselves, when in the 80’s AC and power windows were still expensive options. You now have $1k computers you carry in your pockets you pay $70 a month per line so that it can make phone calls and have 5G internet access. You likely pay for internet for your home for multiple laptops, subscription services for on demand music and video, and possibly even cable tv for your multitude of TV’s scattered through your home. Nicer cloths, collection of shoes, video games, anime, etc, grand vacations out of country on planes or even cruises. All of life has undergone massive feature creep that has driven up costs way more than simple inflation ever could. We just want a simple answer, so we point to the cost of living, but it’s way more than just that, everything has grown and now costs more as a result.
This isn’t even remotely close to what most people at that time would consider middle class.
It’s like people complaining they can’t get a waterfront loft in Manhattan for $1200 a mont as if that’s a sign of profiteering.
No , that's uppermiddle class. In the 1990s middle class got you and your working wife/husband a 1400 -1800 sq ft house ,and a cheap new car ( Geo metro - Chevy Cavalier and a minivan/ chevy Astrovan or a used Truck ) .
But you were making payments and didn't own everything until near retirement.
Totally wrong… I grew up in the 70’s/80’s and joined the Navy in 1993 due to the poor economy…
Had ONE rode trip vacation, if you wanted to call it that, between ages 1 and 17…
No money to send me to college, OR either of my two brothers…
First plane ride was at age 20 while traveling from Albany, NY to Great Lakes, IL for Boot Camp…
Went overseas the first time for my first military duty station.
in 1998, government gave me a .4% pay raise… in 2000, I had to steal paper from other departments because we ran out and couldn’t afford more…
What you’re explaining isn’t “Middle Class.” This is wealthy compared to what I’ve EVER experienced, and I’m considered Middle Class today!!!
5-year overseas trip??? Now that’s not possible back then or today as middle class. You’re making this all up!!!
>5-year overseas trip??? Now that’s not possible back then or today as middle class. You’re making this all up!!!
I'd say it's a lot easier to travel overseas today than it was back then for the middle class. Maybe not every 5 years but at least a couple times in your life isn't out of the question.
True… but we had 2 tvs growing up… parents had 1 car off and on… from 2… we didn’t have cable tv… 2 house phones, sometimes no call waiting…. And our parents paid 9.5% interest on that home…I do recall we had 60,75,&100 watt light bulbs… i do recall needing a roof being big talk in the house and eating like crap (IE canned food and beans..) for some months afterwards…. But I do wonder how cheap was power 🤣 but it’s always ease to look at the past with rose colored lenses…
He’s definitely wrong. Unless you’re living in the middle of San Francisco or something, that’s a very achievable lifestyle on like 80k, assuming the parents only cover a portion of the student loan debt.
Nah, you weren't poor. Most people I knew didn't have many of these things (90s kid here). We rarely even ate out. Something like olive garden was a once in a year major treat.
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Wrong, this was upper middle class and still is.
Yeah I grew up middle class, maybe lower middle class and what OP is describing sounds like a fantasy to me
Minus the overseas trip this is not out of the question, shit my dad was in the Army and my mom had a entry level position at a florist shop and this described my families experience in the 90s. This was in Virginia though
I was in the army and it transcends class because all your basic needs are taken care of. Your dad would have been paid BAH (Basic Allowance for Housing) and possibly BAS, and that’s in addition to a paycheck. Great healthcare and 30 days of paid leave per year. The pay isn’t much but all your basic needs are taken care of outside of that paycheck. You mention it was the 90’s so I’m sure he didn’t have it quite as good as today but still it can’t really be called middle class. The military is really its own economic class if anything.
Anything E5 and above is firmly middle class and only gets better. I'm not even in a high CoL area, and I am just a hair under 6 figures through pay/BAH/BAS, not including benefits. I've come to realize 90% of people who complain about military pay outside junior enlisted are just bad with money and would have those problems whatever job they held.
I think a lot of the people who complain about military pay just have no real world adult work experience. By the time you factor in all the extras and benefits that accrue above base salary you're making the equivalent of like 40-50K/yr basically fresh out of high school. Throw in all the other benefits (post 9/11 GI Bill, VHA) and it's a heckuva a deal.
If you don’t get wounded or PTSD.
Most people walking around with PTSD never served in the military, so pick your poison.
Most of the people I met with PTSD had awful parents that led to them living a bad lifestyle when they were vulnerable. Everyone I know in the military loved it because they hung around Okinawa or France and maybe worked on aircraft that bombed people in other countries. Infantry is different than that, but the military needs an amazing number of mechanics and IT staff.
What a strange, completely irrelevant point to make that lays your statistical illiteracy bare. Of course most people with PTSD weren't in the military - less than 1% of the population are enlisted. The *rates* of PTSD tell a very different story. - About 11 to 20 out of every 100 veterans (or between 11 and 20%) who served in operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom have PTSD in a given year. - About 12 out of every 100 Gulf War Veterans (or 12%) have PTSD in a given year. - About 15 out of every 100 Vietnam veterans (15%) were currently diagnosed with PTSD when the most recent study of them (the National Vietnam Veteran Readjustment Study) was conducted in the late 1980s. It’s believed that 30% of Vietnam veterans have had PTSD in their lifetime. - About 5% of the whole US population (including vets) has PTSD in any given year. It should surprise noone that serving in a military that's been involved in conflicts without interruption for decades *dramatically* increases (45%-600%) the likelihood someone suffers from PTSD.
You should educate yourself. PTSD is far more common amongst non-veterans than you might think. "Studies show that about 15% to 43% of girls and 14% to 43% of boys go through at least one trauma. Of those children and teens who have had a trauma, 3% to 15% of girls and 1% to 6% of boys develop PTSD. Rates of PTSD are higher for certain types of trauma survivors." https://www.ptsd.va.gov/understand/common/common_children_teens.asp
All things considered, these both come with pretty extensive benefits for the veteran and dependents (depending on where you live). Source: was wounded and have PTSD
Yeah that's always the catch. It's an awesome deal for about 99% of people. Some lose the reverse-lottery and wouldn't have signed up for millions up front if they knew what would happen.
I've had a few girlfriends who were veterans over the years and dated into a 'military family' at one point in my life, it seems like the disability rate for anyone that actually is career military is insanely high. PTSD, agoraphobia etc. My ex-girlfriend's mom didn't really go into details but from what I gathered from conversations here and there, she was sexually assaulted and somehow the incident left her permanently disabled. She needs a cane to go anywhere. That pay isn't that great of a deal if you factor those kind of things in. Hell, if it was such a great deal, why do we have so many homeless veterans?
I've got two friends, ex military, both totally milking disability. It's all a game to get disability percents.
I don’t even think junior enlisted should have anything to complain about. When I was a single soldier in the barracks every pay weekend I’d go blow everything I had at the club/on stupid crap and for the next two weeks I’d have no money, but I never once had to worry about my living situation or food. My first two or so years I wasted every single cent I had with zero consequences. Now that’s financial freedom. As for the soldiers who are smart enough to save or even invest their money, they can come out far ahead of their nonmilitary peers.
When I was in the Army, I served with an E-6 who was on his 4th tour to Iraq/Afghan. He volunteered again and again. He was also obsessive about spending nothing and letting Uncle Sam provide for everything. When we were stateside, he lived in the barracks, only ate at the D-Fac, never went out. Think he kept an old car with his parents. Never so much as ordered pizza. He told me he'd saved/invested over 250k and that was in 2006. He said he would volunteer for tours until his 20 years were up (he had about 8 left). Guy probably has 3 million now. Interestingly he was very selective about promotions. He had already turned down a unit transfer that came with E-7. He told me he didn't want to be an E-8 or 9 because he was about maxing out the money with as little responsibility as he could get away with. I didn't like his mercenary attitude. Also got the feeling he volunteered for tours so he could get the chance to legally shoot people.
I do the same with deployments, I'm getting close to double digits, but I doubt I will hit it by 20, close to retirement, and I want to retire at 38. Definitely dont live frugally, trying to enjoy life but still put enough away. Im finding that the more money i save, the less I want to spend any of it. For the last few, I brought back an extra 15-20K, I'll buy a new fishing rod/gun/graphics card and tuck the rest away.
I was junior enlisted and was paying my own college. I lived in bad housing with my wife and newborn. I’ve always been financially savvy. So even jr enlisted can have some decent middle class vacations in the local area.
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Yea, sorry, army pay and benefits with a second income is definitely not lower or even mid middle class. The health benefits alone will add thousands to several thousand a year on average in saved expenses for a family with kids.
I was middle middle class. We had the house, cars, family thing. Vacations were every few years and I spent two days in Canada as my only time leaving the country until I funded it myself as an adult. Two of the four of us attended 4-year colleges, and we both went to the cheapest place we could after scholarships taking out loans for everything that wasn't scholarships. We were blessed, but OP is insane. I can count on one hand the number of people I knew growing up taking international vacations and having family finance their college.
We were about the same. Had the house, 1-2 cars depending on when we’re talking, took a couple small trips in 18 years and everyone had to figure out college for themselves. OP calls it a holiday, so either he’s British or he’s an American that grew up pretty well off.
People want a Simpsons or Married With Children life. One income, 2/3 kids, 2 pets, 4 BR / 2 BA with large backyard, 2 cars.
Al Bundy was a shoe salesman supporting a whole family and an old car hobby and he was considered realistic albeit lower-class.
That dodge was a legend.
broke, not heath insurance, a car with 200K miles. Sounds like a winner. BTW you can still get a house where Al was supposed to live for well under $300K.
I lived the life described in the OP with my dad the sole breadwinner on a 50k salary in Upstate NY.
Hard disagree. My father was a teacher right out of college in 1971. He made the equivalent of $65k/year his first year. He was able to have 2 kids, buy a house, and a new car in the space of just a few years. We went to Walt Disney World every few years. Everything I just said is crazy-talk for a first year teacher on one income in 2024. Edit: Spelling. And to add that we were lower middle class at our best.
One of my good friends is a teacher. Her husband watches the kids to save on daycare costs, but even he has to work part time or they can't afford the bills. They take no vacations at all, but have a house and a couple of older cars.
Many couples are not having children because they can’t afford it, and first year teacher’s are making nearly nothing in income
It costs me $50k/yr just to send my 2 kids to regular non-fancy daycare in the midwest just to show some current costs.
Absolutely same experience, totally correct. Absolutely a pipe dream now
Both my parents were mail carriers in the 90s and we went to Disney most years.
But that isn't overseas trips every 5 years. My dad was probably in a similar boat, but we weren't taking overseas vacations ever, let alone every 5 years
It's pretty much right *except* for the overseas vacation part. As long as the colleges weren't all private ones.
My wife is a 4th year teacher and she would not be able to live alone on her salary.
The location and the type of house is relevant. HCOL or LCOL area? SFH or MFH?
> We went to Walt Disney World every few years. We went to Disney World like every other year, but my parents were able to afford that because they bought into a Disney-run time share back in the late 80's[1] and almost always driving down (I think we flew down only a couple of times). You got all sorts of benefits from being in the program, which included discounts on tickets to the parks, early access to the parks via the Disney-run bus system, etc. All of these perks were slowly rolled back over the years. We were a dual-income family though. I can't recall if my mom was back to work or not in '89, but probably around that time. [1] I think it was '89, I remember spending time in the "kids room" playing Little Nemo Dreammasters on a NES while they were somewhere getting the sales pitch.
A teacher up north in a LCOL area sure. My father taught in PA, made a good salary and had a 3 bedroom house in a LCOL area. He then moved to Florida and took a huge paycut... Teachers made $12K a year I believe in Florida at the time. He built a house for $40K out in a very rural area. This was in 1979. Vacations for us were driving up to see family up north.
It can also be done on less than $400k in most, if not all parts of the country.
As long as you're not the one paying for college for 3 kids
Even then, a middle class family can easily pay for in-state college for 3 kids if they plan ahead. The key is to open a 529 plan the day you find out you’re expecting. $250/month for 18 years and your kid will have 107k to spend on whatever school they want- even just $150/month and they’ll have 65k for college which is enough for a 4 year degree at most schools without your kid working at all (though I think it’s dumb to not work while in school, need some fun money and early investing cash flow to establish good habits)
What you are not accounting for is the dramatically higher rate of college tuition increases than any mutual fund is going to get you in a 529. I watched the State college I went to increase an average of 10.5 percent compounded year-over-year for 35 years. I thought I was saving enough for my kids too. Then I watched tuition skyrocket beyond my ability to keep up.
The Internet shattered the sitcom fantasy of the “average” American family.
Yeah people growing up thought Kevin from Home Alone was middle class.
Home Alone lived in a big ass house with a ton of kids that was nice lol
Flying to France for Christmas? Hah! That was rich person land to me.
No it didn't lol
As a kid born in rthe late 70s, I grew up thinking that I'd be living in a house like the one in Home Alone or in some huge suite overlooking Manhattan. Back then, the message was - "go to college and all of that will be yours!"
No shit. Literally went to a liberal arts college in 1990 and it was like $1000 a month for my parents. And that was because I lived at home. And had a full time job. Three kids would have been a huge burden. Oversees vacation? Yeah, whatever. Stationwagon trip across the country on Christmas maybe. 3 bedroom house also meant like a 1500 sq ft house. Not like today's 3 bedroom 2500 sq ft houses. I actually remember when there was a 3000 sq ft house built down the road from us and we marveled at how huge it was.
Also wrong to say that you need $400K to have what OP described. Depends greatly on location.
I was about to say that, I live in New England and I have 3bd/2baths 1300-2000 sq feet all around for 200-300k, you are 2-3 hours from New York or Boston but they are plentiful
I live in a MCOL area with four kids and I feel like other than the overseas travel, that's basically my life on $130k per year.
The only thing upper was the oversea vacation every 5 year, but even then, middle class could have afforded at least 1 oversea vacation. The main thing that makes this 400k salary is tuition and housing going up astronomically
True. Also I have all of this now. Our HHI is 150k for this first time this year. If you can find a way to avoid debt its possible.
I live in a low COL area, but my first reaction is *of course* it's possible on 150k. Median HHI for my area is under 60k, so if you couldn't do it on 150k you are doing something wrong.
TIL I was upper-middle class. I grew up in a decent size 3-bedroom house, 2 cars, annual family road trip holiday (usually 3 weeks during summer in our minivan touring the west coast), 2 of us 3 kids attended college (my brother was in the Army). We did it with just my father working for the school district making ~$50k salary in the mid-90s, equivalent to a $100k job now. And that's in Upstate NY where taxes eat up a lot of that income. We lived comfortably but we were definitely not upper-middle class.
Yeah 50k in the mid 90s was double the average income. What is upper-middle class if its not double the average salary at the time?
Middle class has been wealthy my whole life… kid born in 84
He may be overselling it a bit but he’s definitely not wrong. Remove the overseas vacations and cut the number of college tuitions to 1-2 from 2-3 and he’s spot on.
Sooooooooo a massive difference in outgoing funds them.
>"Remove a lot of the expenses and it works."
Not even close
Ikr!? I distinctly recall my dad freaking out about a roof replacement circa 1999-2000. I very clearly remember him losing his shit when he realized the roof was leaking into the house. The cost to replace the house's roof was very high relative to what he made.
I’m 40, this almost exactly describes my middle class childhood. And my mom didn’t work until I was in grade school. But add in a cabin, quads, snowmobiles…
And I could accomplish what they reference on 200k easily
This is BS. You can have all of that with an 80k household if you live in a LCOL midwest city and send the kids to JC for 2 years. Cut out the overseas vacation because that isn't middle class. That's upper class shit.
Overseas vacation for 5 every 5 years isn’t even that bad if you plan it and depending where you go. $250 a month / 60 months is $15k. Flights from Denver to Paris in March 2025 are going for as little as $514 - round up to $3k to include taxes and luggage. $600 night air bnb for an entire house in the heart of Paris for 7 nights - $5k after fees and taxes. $7k left for groceries, eating out, shows, events, transport, shopping. And I’m sure you can all agree you wouldn’t need to spend $1k a day.
Not many people can put a car payment away each month. Edit: bunch of people talking about their experiences below...
Sure, but you also don’t need to make $400k to have a vacation overseas every five years.
400k/ year people can afford like every year.
I can afford that on 200k household pretty easily.
Gotta remember that the people responding have a 50/50 chance of not being out of high school. 75% probably aren't out of college. They're just getting told that everything is unaffordable and believing it. It really isn't as bad as it's made out to be.
Or maybe, just maybe, most people aren’t able to make $200k a year.
Half of the US doesn’t even clear 50k a year lol
Can confirm.
Yeah, this is kinda boggling my mind. We made $460k last year, and we have 4 overseas vacations this year for a total of 5 weeks. With those $460k we have a free cash flow of nearly $15k/month. It'd be pretty easy to go every month tbh, but obviously our savings rate is huge.
Our household income is less than 400k for sure, we own our home, own 2 cars, and vacation to Europe every 6 months at least. No kids, that’s the kicker. Kids are expensive.
The fuck kind of car are you getting for $260 a month
A used one he purchased back in 2017
I could probably save for that tbh. And I'm on just about 80k/yr
I could in my relatively LCOL area on my own at just under that. I’m also getting married to someone with very little debt and a reasonable pay for the area so even better.
Hmm, prices double or triple when you look at times that line up with school holiday schedules 😉
An overseas holiday once every 5 years is upper class?
Overseas vacation for 5 while also having yearly vacations seems unusual to me.
"yeah just uproot your life and move somewhere else" Okay dude
Isn't that idea what the entire nation if founded on?
You don't have to. But than deal with the fact that you have to pay more, because more people want to live were you live.
Demand should raise wages not just prices
Wages do rise, big cities tend to have far higher wages than countrysites. Like, living in Kansas you are going to make less than in LA. The issue is, that homes are far less elastic to demand, than wages and stuff in the store, because you can't just create more land. If there is a home on 1km², you are not suddenly going to have two homes on the same space, because the USA isn't going to magically increase in size. So demand for living space tends to not be met (specifically if everyone wants a SFH, and you zone accordingly).
If you can’t afford where you live… yeah….
Depends on the location. Where I live, to buy a 3 bedroom 2 bath will cost you around $550k. After taxes, insurance and HOA, you’re looking at a $3200/month payment (if you put down 20% to start). A single income of $80k with a house in genuinely unheard of. Especially in socal.
Definitely location-dependent. You'd likely have to live in Detroit or Cleveland with a 100k home to pull off that entire list he had
My wife parents live in Southern California living off a single income. Her mom is a teacher and makes around 70k a year and they go on vacation multiple times a year. They don’t buy new stuff such as boats and cars. They always buy used so it’s way cheaper. Imo that is why they can afford it because they don’t pay extra to have something new.
She more than likely makes more than $70k a year. I'm not too sure of any school district in SB County that doesn't pay credentialed 1st-year teachers right at $70k a year. Maybe in the middle of nowhere but that would even be an extreme LCOL area.
I’m not going to dox her but her school district is one of the lowest paying.
You obviously owe me nothing, but you can’t dox one person in a whole school district lol. SB county is huge, I have lots of teacher friends in the area, it’s pretty safe to say all districts pay over $70k after 5 years, with in a credential. She makes more than $70k and still has two months off each year, in a very lcol area, that’s nothing to complain about.
House paid for?
They probably have an extremely low mortgage because they’ve been in their house for a long time. And someone working for an entire lifetime likely has a nice cushion of savings. So that’s not really a good benchmark for California. Someone starting out would easily need to make 3x that in order to achieve the same lifestyle with the same assets.
I read JC as Jesus Christ. What’s JC?
Junior College.
Yep. I live in Ohio. totally possible here. Blows my mind, I see people get hired at my company fresh out of college and the first thing they do is buy a brand new car and a big ass house they don't need. I know a guy with one kid who has a 5 bedroom house. Has to have a studio for his wife, and extra rooms in case his family comes to stay. Fuck that, my family wants to come they can stay in a hotel. I bought a house in the middle of nowhere and waited years before buying car with a loan. Spent years driving junkers. Now I'm almost 40, and yeah, I have a decent life. I have kids, my wife is a stay at home mom, and we can do fun stuff like go on yearly trips. I'm still budget conscience. My kids are 13, and last year was the first time we flew anywhere as a family, and we stayed in a Hampton Inn so we got free breakfast every morning.
You can have a great couples European vacation for a week for $5k. For a family of 4 maybe double it. Thats $10k every 5 years. So $164 per month savings?
Its not even, we make 200k and have a 4 bedroom, kids, 3 cars and could afford annual overseas trips. If you’re planning well they aren’t that much more expensive than domestic
I am pretty sure growing up we were upper middle and we never went over seas ever.
Well, seeing as only 5% of people had passports in the 90s, I doubt this
Holy shit is that true lmao
Well, to be fair. That is the statistic for 1990, I don’t know exactly how many more people got passports over the next 9 years
11% by 1995, still not that high
In the 90's I don't think we needed passports for Mexico or Canada. I know that's not exactly overseas but it counts as a proper out of country vacation.
Pretty sure Sept. 11 is what changed that. Or at least for Canada I think.
lol in the 90s we used to pop over to the US for birthday parties because the town there had a pool. The van would be filled with kids and we had no notes from parents or passports. The guard would be like, "what's up" "Going to the pool!" "Nice, have fun" Off we go. That same land crossing is now an interrogation every time, even if it's just me. I couldn't imagine trying to bring other people's children across.
Dude, every land crossing with Canada is an interrogation. I could probably fit dozens of airport entries into the time one border crossing agent spent with me during one of my trips back from Windsor. All business travel, all alone, all nothing to declare.
The requirements changed in the late 2000s/early 2010s. I went to Niagara shortly after I graduated high school because the drinking age was 19, so roughly 2008 and all I needed was a birth certificate to cross.
Changed June 1, 2009
Interestingly, in Europe it changed in the other direction a bit before that. Schengen area is awesome. Austria is a tiny country and it used to be right next to the iron curtain. The closest capital from the capital of Austria is just 50km away, but in the 80s and before that it could have also been on the moon and would have been just as easy to reach. You had to have a passport to enter any other country around Austria that wasn't behind the iron curtain, and you'd always have to budget at least an hour for waiting for the border crossing. Now it's all Schengen area, and the worst that happens there is that you need to slow down to 30km/h at the border and drive by a grim looking border guard with an oversized gun.
One can drive to Mexico for free (gas). You can be poor and drive to Mexico.
Exactly. Places most Americans traveled, Caribbean, Mexico and Canada didn’t require passports for Americans to visit in the 1990’s.
It is. It’s absolutely nuts how overseas travel has exploded
Wait but if overseas travel is at record highs, doesn't that debunk OPs entire narrative?
Yes.
I was born in 1977 and we fit every part of this description except the overseas trip. We were very comfortable but the first time I set foot on foreign soil (not counting Canada) was the age of 27. Even counting Canada it was like Niagara Falls once at like 15, and then not again until 22.
Also only 25 percent of people had bs degrees at that time and pressumably they would mostly come from upper class families so only some of the middle class families did 4 years college
Grew up solidly middle to lower middle class and yeah I could count one hand the number of families I knew that had been overseas even once. That is some upper class stuff not at all middle. It was considered a once in a lifetime sort of thing. My mom went as an exchange student in the 60s, never got to go back. Not to mention most kids didn’t go to college back then (80s & 90s), roughly 30/40%. I think 3 people in my entire graduating class of around 500 went to an out of state school and the rest state schools if anywhere at all.
Kids watching home alone thinking that was a normal family lol
Middle class families in the 1990s didn't go overseas every five years. Also each family member didn't have a computer and a pocket computer. The 1990s (or the 80s, or the 70s, 60s, 50s) weren't some magic time where every middle class person was rich.
The 90’s where all it took to be middle class was a shit ton of money.
Good luck explaining that to broke redditors who seem to think janitors in the 90s could afford penthouses and butlers.
Younger generations have this weird idea where they think the TV show Friends is real and we lived in some financial utopia in the 90s. The reality was that most families had a shitty tv in their house, and that's about it. Vacations consisted of camping and public pools. Also we walked both ways uphill.
Overseas actually being Mexico, maybe? Didn't necessarily need a passport or anything then.
Feels odd to call Mexico overseas if most Americans don't cross any seas to get there
Grew up solid middle class in the Midwest during the 90s. We had two cars, a three bedroom (though not in great shape) house. Both parents had bachelor's degrees. Both parents worked full time. We went on vacation for two weeks each year, but we camped. Had a small boat. Had a riding lawn mower (which was also a status symbol at the time). To afford all this, parents carried massive amounts of credit card debt which ultimately undid them.
reported for spamming and evading ban
How do you know they’re evading a ban?
look at the account
I can't
exactly. suspended accounts that keep posting
This account is suspended as of at least 2 days a ago, but is somehow still posting. I lurk a lot in here and there seems to be a lot of this kinda stuff happening
Finally someone else calling it out too
He is wrong, he's confusing sitcoms for real life
I know, this isn't full house lol.
You just described an upper middle class family in the 90s and today.
Nah, they described a 90s sitcom family that they think was real life. I can’t even count how many times I’ve seen people try to make these arguments by literally using the Simpsons as an example of how life used to be in the 90s
This thread is full of kids who were well off who's parents told them they were middle class.
It’s funny how EVERYONE claims to be middle class in America. Rich people say they are to avoid contempt and poor people do it to avoid the stigma.
I never learned to ride a bike as a kid cause the road we lived on was sand, we were too poor to afford a dirt road lol. It's weird to see people talking about this weird fantasy 90s class distinctions, don't get me wrong it was an awesome decade to grow up in, but it definitely wasn't utopian like the OP's dream.
My parents told me we were middle class when they made ~20k/yr in the early 90s. Then when my mom married my step dad in the late 90s he made 80k and we lived like hell damn kings in my mind lol. He also swore we were middle class
This mother fucker is dreaming lol. We didn't do yearly trips or international trips every 5 years. If you have a small home, a roof repair or replacement really isn't that bad.
We did 2-3 road trips per year but it was to visit family and we stayed with family Staying in even a holiday inn was a luxury, one time ever did my parents book two rooms, one for themselves and one for us kids and it felt like being a millionaire
Basically we took trips when someone died. Because we'd end up driving to Minnesota for funerals.
and all of that wouldnt even be anywhere near 400k even if you had a 5k/month mortgage and 10k/month living expenses (both of which would be insanely high btw) thats still only 180k per year. tack on 20k per year for those vacations and youre only halfway to 400k
What he's describing is a 200k/yr+ household in 1995, which is roughly 400k/yr+ today.
I can assured you, $400k is waaaaay more than enough for all this. People making $400k can take multiple overseas trips a year if they want, lol. Unless they live to the absolute end of their means for other expenses.
Our yearly HHI is 300k and we can afford a fulltime nanny, private school, putting 60k a year towards retirement, and multiple vacations a year where we fly. We have a road trip vacation about once a month. Although, we might have to cut back on air travel once our youngest won't be a lap child anymore. We live in a MCOL city, so we wouldn't be able to afford all that if we lived somewhere HCOL. 400k-500k is probably what we would need for the same lifestyle in a HCOL area.
This. My wife and I pull about $300k and because we didn't buy a house we couldn't afford we can do whatever we want. A lot of people making this kind of money are stupud with money and buy a house and cars they have no business buying.
Very regional specific. $90,000 would easily get you there where I’m at.
My household income is around $225K and not only do we have everything in this meme, but we also have a very large savings balance. I don’t feel like there’s anything we need we can’t afford. One key piece is making sure you live in an area with low cost of living.
Most of the complaints come from people who finance cars that cost 2x the annual income, and put vacations on credit cards. Any moderately earning person with sensible budgeting can do quite fine still
In most low cost areas jobs are hard to find. If you do find a job, alot of it is minimum wage. I know this because I am from such an area.
When people talk about low cost of living areas in this context, they’re not talking about rural areas with no jobs. They’re talking about medium sized cities with plenty of good jobs but without the dramatically higher living costs of somewhere like NYC or San Francisco.
Yeah, this is goofy. I make less than that and go on a big overseas trip once a year, a ski trip, and maybe 3-4 other domestic vacations a year. With the family. While saving. Absolutely bizarre anyone would think $400k buys you one overseas trip every five years
WTF. Who comes up with this shit? Absolutely none of this is true.
Its funny because it seemed like people were poorer in the 90s. Everybody owned a home because they are what we call today “starter” homes. Also, foreign cars were rare. All my friends parents had explorers, blazers, berretas, or minivans. Eating out seemed like a rare event and luxury restaurants were Red Lobster and Olive Garden.
That’s just normal life, somehow Americans got caught in this McMansion, Big Car, TakeOut, + services. Yes the cost of living has outpaced salaries but there has definitely been a lifestyle creep.
The part of overseas travel is particularly interesting. Only 10% of Americans even had a passport in 1994, compared to ~40% today. Most people weren't really going overseas back then. Though maybe people near the borders were going to Canada or Mexico when rules were more lax and you didn't need a passport to cross
I think it would be really interesting to see how credit cards, take aways, restaurants, the fast food industry and the processed food industry has grown in the last 35 years. Back then most people made almost every meal from scratch. And they still can if they want to.
I always laugh when I watch younger couples house hunting because they all turn their nose at homes all of us and our friends grew up in. As a kid I never thought about if a house was nice or not when visiting friends. HGTV has warped our minds into thinking we all need gray open concept new builds. I get a real kick out of 2-3 person families buying homes that are ~3k sqft
No you haven’t
Where at? Fricking California? People always take the most extreme examples
California driving a Bentley on that roadtrip probably lol
Also internet, cell phones, fuel efficient and upgraded safety vehicles, no land lines, international calling, no collect calls unless you're in prison, vaccines, advanced healthcare, post 9/11, AI, broader access to travel, GPS, energy star, better insulation options, all season fruits and veggies. What I'm describing right now is a world that has never been so accessible, yeah it's gonna cost more. Edit: landlines still exist but Noone is getting strangled by or "tripping over the phone" anymore.
This has never been middle class
These weirdos thinking the family from Home Alone were middle class, when a simple google search shows they were the top 1%. They did stories on the house value plus neighborhood value and said it would be considered the top 1% based on today’s value so imagine what it was like in the 1990s.
There is much, much more that goes along with that lifestyle today than in the 1980’s. Now you’re two cars can practically drive themselves, when in the 80’s AC and power windows were still expensive options. You now have $1k computers you carry in your pockets you pay $70 a month per line so that it can make phone calls and have 5G internet access. You likely pay for internet for your home for multiple laptops, subscription services for on demand music and video, and possibly even cable tv for your multitude of TV’s scattered through your home. Nicer cloths, collection of shoes, video games, anime, etc, grand vacations out of country on planes or even cruises. All of life has undergone massive feature creep that has driven up costs way more than simple inflation ever could. We just want a simple answer, so we point to the cost of living, but it’s way more than just that, everything has grown and now costs more as a result.
The simple answer is, entitlement.
Nowadays people think you're rich if you can afford to go to the doctor...
This isn’t even remotely close to what most people at that time would consider middle class. It’s like people complaining they can’t get a waterfront loft in Manhattan for $1200 a mont as if that’s a sign of profiteering.
He's wrong!
The first step in Marxism is changing history to fit the narrative.
No , that's uppermiddle class. In the 1990s middle class got you and your working wife/husband a 1400 -1800 sq ft house ,and a cheap new car ( Geo metro - Chevy Cavalier and a minivan/ chevy Astrovan or a used Truck ) . But you were making payments and didn't own everything until near retirement.
As a 90s kid, this wasn't close to my experience as "middle class".
In the 90s less than 25% of people went to college wtf is this?
Totally wrong… I grew up in the 70’s/80’s and joined the Navy in 1993 due to the poor economy… Had ONE rode trip vacation, if you wanted to call it that, between ages 1 and 17… No money to send me to college, OR either of my two brothers… First plane ride was at age 20 while traveling from Albany, NY to Great Lakes, IL for Boot Camp… Went overseas the first time for my first military duty station. in 1998, government gave me a .4% pay raise… in 2000, I had to steal paper from other departments because we ran out and couldn’t afford more… What you’re explaining isn’t “Middle Class.” This is wealthy compared to what I’ve EVER experienced, and I’m considered Middle Class today!!! 5-year overseas trip??? Now that’s not possible back then or today as middle class. You’re making this all up!!!
I say you were working class though?
>5-year overseas trip??? Now that’s not possible back then or today as middle class. You’re making this all up!!! I'd say it's a lot easier to travel overseas today than it was back then for the middle class. Maybe not every 5 years but at least a couple times in your life isn't out of the question.
He’s very wrong
True… but we had 2 tvs growing up… parents had 1 car off and on… from 2… we didn’t have cable tv… 2 house phones, sometimes no call waiting…. And our parents paid 9.5% interest on that home…I do recall we had 60,75,&100 watt light bulbs… i do recall needing a roof being big talk in the house and eating like crap (IE canned food and beans..) for some months afterwards…. But I do wonder how cheap was power 🤣 but it’s always ease to look at the past with rose colored lenses…
More like upper class….
He’s definitely wrong. Unless you’re living in the middle of San Francisco or something, that’s a very achievable lifestyle on like 80k, assuming the parents only cover a portion of the student loan debt.
Kids are a luxury and super expensive. Exhausting.
Way off. You can do all this today on under 200k a year easy.
Damn, we must have been pretty poor in the 90's. I don't remember any family vacations overseas or really anywhere outside of our province/country.
Nah, you weren't poor. Most people I knew didn't have many of these things (90s kid here). We rarely even ate out. Something like olive garden was a once in a year major treat.
He is wrong.
He is wrong
Wrong. This wasn’t my experience in middle class in the 1990s at all.
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