**synopsis;** Joe Biden turns in a disastrous debate performance, missing an opportunity to take advantage of Donald Trump’s (many) lies and unhinged moments, and sowing real doubt about his strength as a candidate over the long run. Jon, Lovett, Tommy, and Dan discuss what went wrong and what might happen now.
**[youtube version](https://youtu.be/x1FiC44Z9BA?si=EUoy-CY48sRfL0Oh)**
I’m just happy they were realistic with what we got last night and didn’t try to convince us it was a win. It’s ok to judge Biden’s performance and think about what should happens next. It’s not a cult.
Apparently telling him when talking about his best issue (abortion) where Trump is tripling down on a deeply unpopular stance, the best thing to do is incoherently pivot to immigration (Biden’s worst issue)
This was a refreshingly honest pod for a change. I just wish we (Dems) could have been honest with ourselves about Biden’s age and the optics of it a year or two ago. He would have been a great 1 term president.
And frankly, a lot of Dems owe an apology for the fucking endless gaslighting and dismissals they delivered to folks who were sounding this alarm for the last two years.
I feel like we’re preemptively being blamed for voicing legitimate concerns about Biden at all. This has been going on for years(!!!) despite many of us volunteering our time and money to get Democrats elected. I’m tired.
Fucking SERIOUSLY. I've been shit on relentlessly in this sub for the last year saying the exact same thing the pod guys are saying now. Where's all those "like it or not, bidens the nominee and biden won the primary so suck it up and don't say anything bad about him" people now?
The problem isn't that Biden is 81. The problem is that he acted and sounded like he's 91. This is someone who debated very strongly from 2007 to 2020 and the degradation is absolutely shocking.
Dan summed it up perfectly a couple pods ago leading up to the debate: “what he says is less important than how he says it”. And, unfortunately, the same goes for Trump, who’s raving lunatic energy is going to cover for the actual lunacy of his words.
Yep. Sanders is also too old to run for POTUS IMO, but he would have wiped the floor with Trump last night. He's still sharp and clear and articulate. Biden was none of those things.
Exactly. If I don’t view the moment as such an existential threat, I’d have a real hard time voting for him. If this is what he looks like NOW, what about two years from now?!
Lovett’s monologue at the 8-ish minute mark needs to be clipped and played to Biden and anyone else enabling him. It’s compassionate while also highlighting the stakes of continuing on the current path.
Agreed, I thought his line about “the same patriotism that initially drew you to run should draw you to engage with this conversation after what we just saw” was a good one that would resonate with Biden
Yall, lets just be mature and acknowledge there is insane risk here in every scenario. Biden sticking in with potentially no more chances to directly contrast is risky. Him stepping aside in favor of someone else on a rushed convention timeline is also super risky. There are two options that Joe Biden and only Joe Biden must choose between in my opinion:
A) Stay in the race, do not open the can of worms and do the chaotic thing, do what you can to make the case effectively, and keep up your great advertising and organizing strategy.
B) Step aside and withdraw from the race, open the can of worms, deal with all the noise and the drama, but once the dust settles let the party get behind a ticket of Kamala Harris and Josh Shapiro/Roy Cooper/JB Pritzker
Both of these strategies have insane risks and pros and cons and you can make a very rational argument for both. There is no "cleanly and quickly make Whitmer or Pritzker the nominee" option. It would be the Vice President.
At this point I think our best option collectively is to combine our energies in thinking about what we're going to do to mitigate and, to the extent possible, prevent Project 2025.
And beyond Project 2025 we're going to have to figure out what our plans are to deal with a Supreme Court that has five Trump Justices and may ultimately end up being a seven to ultra-conservative dominated Supreme Court for a generation.
I think that the America my 6-year-old son inherits is not going to look anything like America of today.
We're going to have to take a page out of the playbook of the pro-life movement and think in the terms of decades.
Biden just fucked us all for the next 50 years
If the new ticket is Kamala you might as well just inaugurate trump now. She will not win, period
The best option is a Whitmer, maybe Walz (although good luck getting Minnesota to part with him)
Problem with debates is that democrats want to see who will be the best Chief Executive. We want policy, but these debates are generally meant to show who is the best Head of State, a symbol, and unfortunately, Trump, even with the bullshit spewing out of his mouth, won yesterday. He looked more energetic by a mile.
Yeah, no one learned in history class that Kennedy beat Nixon in that first televised debate because he was more accurate or factual than Nixon. It’s because he won the optics battle. Presidential debates are pageantry.
How I feel after last night. But I appreciate the guys for being blunt. Even Ezra Klein was like WELLLP.
[morph ](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/449867450274889604/)
And Feinstein, McConnel, and who knows how many more. Is there anything more American than not being able to candidly speak to elderly people about when it's time to acknowledge things aren't the same? My coworker's dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's long enough ago that three years ago she was already telling me stories of him forgetting where he was sometimes. I asked if he was still driving and they were so offended at the suggestion I ended up getting a reprimand from HR.
Mad respect to these guys for being honest and not trying to spin it. We all saw the debate. We all had our non-political friends texting us like WHAT IS HAPPENING?
If we truly believe democracy is on the line, we have to send our best. Biden is not our best. He’s a good man and did some great things as president, but between voters who think he’s Genocide Joe and voters who think he’s senile, it’s clear that he cannot communicate the way he needs to in order to inspire confidence.
So many people in this thread are acting like last night was no big deal. I beg you to talk to anyone. Literally any person in your life who isn’t a ride-or-die democrat.
Yep that’s the piece people are glancing over because it was a debate. My non-political friends were also texting me the same last night… I didn’t even think they’d be watching.
I haven’t been this negative since 2016 when I was trying to tell people how the general population just didn’t like Hillary.
>I haven’t been this negative since 2016 when I was trying to tell people how the general population just didn’t like Hillary.
Same. They won't listen this time either but will happily blame us if Trump wins.
Ride or die Democrat(ic voter) here and I also think he needs to drop out now. The risks of a brokered convention are still better than the 0% chance of winning if Biden stays in.
I’m not a ride or die democrat, I would have voted for Chris Christie if he was the GOP nominee over Biden. That said, if the other option is Trump, I will vote for a vegetable over what would happen to America if Trump gains power again
Tommy said something to the effect of that there is still no question as to whether Joe Biden can handle the job of President. Sure, that’s not a question for the last 3.5 years or maybe even the next 6 months.
But there is absolutely a question as to whether he can do the job the next 4 years - that’s the entire question. He’s clearly declining from where he was in 2020, and if anyone has been around people in their 80s, they fade fast. Actuarily, there’s a question whether he’ll even be around in 4 years.
Yup, this was so worrying for the election but also for Biden as a person. We desperately need a new candidate, and Biden desperately needs to live his remaining years in peace. That was just tragic to watch, above all else.
I wonder if they will bring up Dean Phillips mentioning this when he was on the Pod saying that his Biden's. policies are the best but the perception of the president is going to be more important when going against Trump.
I think sometimes fans of the pod misunderstand who the audience is for this show. There are no swing voters listening to Pod Save. There are no republicans hearing this conversation. There are barely any leftists hearing these conversations. JJTD speak mostly to very-active consistent Democratic (mostly white) voters. Them having this conversation is NOT damaging. Everyone listening to this pod is READY to vote for Joe Biden if they need to. But Joe Biden made a case against his own nomination last night and it is very worth having this conversation now.
We all want to make sure Trump cannot win in November. If that means having a difficult conversation now while there's still a chance, that conversation should be had. If it turns out Biden's the guy, we go all in. But we are losing this race right now. And if having a candidate who can articulate a thought without a teleprompter can help us beat Donald Trump, then dear god I hope we change candidates.
I love Joe Biden. I think he has accomplished way more than Obama ever did. If Trump is as big of a threat as we all know he is, I think the most patriotic think Joe can do is step aside.
Here's the thing: this is not about Joe Biden. This is about beating Donald Trump. Joe Biden has been a good President and has done a great service to this country, and I have supported him the entire time, at no point, until last night, did I ever feel he could not do the job. Is it fair? No. Biden was probably the only person who could have beaten Trump in 2020. But if he stays in the race because of ego, or whatever then he is doing a disservice to himself and the country.
If he stays in fine. But then his full time job over the next 4 months is showing us he is capable to do this job. He needs to walk directly into the lions den and prove he is competent. He needs to go on Fox, he needs to talk to the NYT. He can't run a campaign where they hide him away from the press anymore. That is the price his campaign pays for setting up this debate and then flubbing it so terribly.
The worst part is Joe Biden could have been a great one term president, who focused on rebuilding after COVID AND also trained a protege to slide into a great 2024 ticket set up.
Instead, alongside every other 70+ year old establishment Dem who is refusing to pass the torch to the next generation, we have Joe Biden who doesn’t seem to have one minority group happen with him, and damaging the ticket in November.
Right? He would have gone down as a legend. The myth of his one-term mic drop presidency would have made him stand out from every other president for a hundred years. I wonder if Trump hadn't run again, if Biden would have retired after one.
I'm right there with you.
I love Joe. He is a good husband to his wife, a good father to his children, a good man in this country and he is a good president.
However, the country needs a charismatic person to unite the people and overcome the lies and propaganda from the far right.
Who cares if the conversation is damaging? It needs to be had. I have been an enthusiastic supporter of Joe and will be checking the box for him in November, but let’s be honest: against any candidate other than Donald Trump, that debate performance would be disqualifying and unrecoverable. It’s entirely possible Joe lost the election last night, and therefore the risk of replacing him is far, far less than it was last week. I don’t like it but this is where we are.
I will vote democrat up and down the ticket but I pray that someone grows a set of balls and we get a new nominee out of the convention. This is bigger than one man’s ego
Unfortunately most of the people that could make that decision are from the same generation as him - known for their ego, their death grip on power and refusal to have any sort of self awareness or respect for the public they are supposed to be serving
I live in PA and I'm calling my congressman and both senators today to ask them to put pressure on Biden to quit the race. I hope everybody who lives in a swing state (and really anybody who is represented by Democratic officials) will do the same.
I understand the risks involved with replacing a candidate at this point in an election cycle. But the alternative is a *guaranteed* loss to Trump. Biden's chances at winning in November ended with "we beat Medicare." We have to face reality here.
I'm just 15 minutes in, but it is pure, somber, level-headed call for Biden to drop out.
Personally, I can just no longer picture Biden as being fit for the job. I don't think he's fit today. I can't imagine he can be fit 3 years down the line. We need a better candidate to defeat Trump and govern our country.
My worry with Newsom is that he’s basically the spitting image of the “coastal elite” caricature that right wing media has spent the last 3 decades crafting. There’s plenty you can attack him with from homelessness to Californians paying obscene rates for electricity due to all the rate hikes under his watch, the French Laundry incident, etc... I think he would be a fine president, just think he would struggle to reach swing voters in the Midwest, Pennsylvania, Arizona, and Nevada.
Which is why I think someone like Whitmer or Shapiro would be best.
😓
I guess I was expecting a little bit of optimism but this was a pretty… devastatingly raw reaction from the boys.
Honestly, I love Biden. I think he can still.. mostly do the job. My grandmother raised six kids and ran a successful business until the age of 92. I think he’s a smart, capable politician, a good man, an extremely effective president, and has an amazing team in place.
But the boys are right. It’s not just about his ability to do a good job as president. It’s about being able to sell him to voters and he is just not sellable anymore. It’s SO risky to keep him on the ticket. 😭
Also, good point brought up several times—why the fuck did Biden’s team go out of their way to make this debate happen? The only thing i can think of is that Biden somehow just crashed for, like, the first time ever?
Sorry if this was rambling. I’m just panicking out loud I guess.
Tommy's response was the one that resonated most with me. My doubt isn't with his ability to do the job. He has proven he can do it. But optics play a huge role. And after last night, it's a bad situation. I was so nervous and didn't understand the insistence on their timing of this after all the foreign trips. Hell, even the best of us would be wiped after the slate he has recently run. I did not expect it to be quite as bad as it was last night.
Me too. We are looking such slim margins to win elections.
I was hoping for Dark Brandon and he just could not get it together.
But we know that Joe Biden will put together an experienced and effective administration.
Trump only has ass kissing sycophants.
Australian here. This situation is what political parties are for. A national leader on a path to destruction requires a responsible political party to act.
In most parliamentary systems, this is the time when all reasonable politicians would be running the numbers on leadership spills and transition strategies. The Republican party wasn't institutionally strong enough to get rid of Trump in the best interests of the party and country. The Biden situation is not the same, but the Democratic party is in a situation where they have to act for the good of party and country. Not by coup but by persuasion of Biden to transition out.
This is the issue with the US system. There is no succession plan. Any rando can walk off the street and run for president. In parliamentary systems the leaders often come up through party ranks and have been in the system for years before ascending to leadership.
It's a bit different in america because our electors are basically randos. In a parliamentary system the leader is chosen by democratically elected representatives who are actual politicians as opposed to just like political enthusiasts. Still, honestly, its hard to make a worse choice than continuing to do the same thing that hasn't worked.
You're absolutely right that it is different. But political parties and the strong politicians within them have more ways of acting than just voting on a convention floor. And often parliamentary party leaders step down when they are made aware the party thinks their time is up.
I’m hoping that the answer to why the powers-that-be in the Democratic Party pushed for a debate this early is in case this happened. If this very probable scenario happened in October, the campaign would be completely over. But since it happened in June, it is not too late to reverse course and go to a contested convention where a new nominee is chosen. Because if that isn’t the case, then IDK, you can’t say that the DNC didn’t have ample opportunity to hit the breaks before they ran off the cliff.
I’ve been considering this possibility too—that they knew this might happen and wanted to avoid it happening in October.
I don’t know how realistic it is, or whether it would be a better choice, but having this happen in June allows at least a sliver of time to have the conversation about alternatives.
I think your premise is right, but conclusion is too extreme. If it happens in June they can have several months of messaging and news cycles and criminal sentencing change the narrative.
If you’ve ever dealt with an aging parent, or loved one, you would know what you saw last night. This isn’t something that goes away. It gets worse. I know that look, I saw it on my dad for a year before he died. This is the take the keys away situation. A second debate will likely make matters worse. This wasn’t a cold and this isn’t 2012. We have time to change course and should do it now. Even if we can get him elected, he is not fit for the job anymore. He was a fantastic president, he is better than Trump. But he is in cognitive decline, that is normal for someone his age.
Exactly!! I keep saying the look in his eyes reminds me of my grandmother the year leading up to when she passed. If you know you know. Biden is good at heart, but he cannot handle this job anymore. It’s like an elderly person insisting they can still drive even when they have macular degeneration
It’s painful but you’re entirely right. And it’s not something you can spin or message away. This is something Americans have lived experience with. They know what aging decline looks like and anyone who watched last night knows they saw two men in serious decline.
And it actually seemed so much worse when he WASNT talking. That hanging jaw look is all you need to see.
I’ll still vote for the corpse of Joe Biden over Trump; he’s been a great person and a great president, but this is scary shit. Four years of a lunatic dictator, or a degenerating old man…
My late uncle-in-law drove race cars for Mazda and Jaguar, held land speed records, and had driven stunts in a bond film. His family was all texting each other after the debate about the Christmas they came back home and after the first night together stepped to the side and all agreed they had to tell him he couldn't drive anymore. I don't understand why our party isn't doing that right now. Republicans are going to make the entire election a senility issue and while I would have called that bullshit intellectual dishonesty yesterday, I can't anymore. I was surprised to hear the hosts not acknowledge there's room for doubting if Biden is capable of delivering as commander and chief at all times.
I think the worst part is, I totally understand that. I have done that. I am probably going to have to do that the closer we get to November. They want to defeat Trump and minimizing and moving past this moment are the only ways I think the campaign is going to acknowledge it. But at this moment, no matter how much I wish I didn't, I am forced to have a conversation with myself about how low of a bar I'm willing to accept in a President. And I don't know how if I'm feeling that way we're going to be able to improve our standing in swing states as the campaign (and international conflict) progresses.
I feel sick about it. I sat there thinking, what if this was 2 very moderate candidates, and I had a choice. I’m not even sure he’s going to be alive in 4 years. What I saw scared me
He needs to drop his campaign and pass the torch to someone who can form a coherent sentence. Last night was a campaign ending performance to independents and other people on the fence. How could anyone look at Biden's performance last night, and believe that he's up to 4 more years of the most demanding job in the world? It's so sad.
Every single NYT opinion piece is calling on Biden to drop out.
Friedman: "Joe Biden Is a Good Man and a Good President. He Must Bow Out of the Race."
Krugman: "The Best President of My Adult Life Needs to Withdraw"
Cottle/Douthat/Klein: "Is Biden Too Old? America Got Its Answer."
Bruni: "Biden Cannot Go On Like This"
Kristof: "President Biden, It’s Time to Drop Out"
Polgreen: "Kamala Harris Could Win This Election. Let Her."
America still is too misogynistic and racist to accept Kamala. Which is sad and gross. But I want to win this election so I could care less who the choice is if they’re better than Biden and can win.
I'm also quite sure Kamala would also do even worse with progressives and young people given her reputation and resume.
And while I hate that this continues to be true as far as what matters for electability, she has no charisma or personal appeal as far as I'm concerned. Boring and awkward does not move the needle, much less against a big personality (no matter how horrid) of Trump.
There needs to be a serious shift in thinking in Biden’s generation. It is honorable, helpful, strong, and forward thinking to mentor and bring up new generations of people into high roles. Biden could be a huge benefit for the party if he had decided to help by stepping down and by being that mentor and support for a future president who could have 8 years in them rather than trying to stay in for yet another 4 years. RGB- love her, but what a disaster for her legacy how that played out. There are too many examples.
This is the USA- there are so many incredible, smart, charismatic, fabulous people if they are given a chance. At what point is it enough? At what point do people decide they’ll step down with dignity and give somebody else a hand up? I like Biden and am grateful he worked to get trump out. I am very sad to see this happen. I care for elderly people and this is just very hard to watch.
I was a huge Biden supporter. And I still am. But I do wish he chose not to run. Like they said on the pod, part of being a presidential candidate is being able to communicate effectively. He's failing at that.
I'm worried now it's too late. A lot of potential presidents, Josh Shapiro, Whitmer etc are unproven on a national level. Newsome is probably the only one who has name recognition.
Everyone’s saying it’d be such a big risk to find a new candidate, and of course there’s a risk, but isn’t almost every American that isn’t hardcore MAGA wanting someone new? Why are we so scared to do something that is probably actually popular?
Playing Devil's Advocate here: let's say the DNC trots out Gavin Newsom or Gretchen Whitmer (I don't think Kamala is electable). How are they supposed to get the name recognition that is required to win swing voters that aren't paying attention to politics?
It's easy to say "Anyone but Biden!", but at some point, you have to be able to convince voters who aren't voting blue down the ballot. In addition, the credibility of the party itself is going to take a hit by replacing the candidate so late that we're back in the "Dems are in disarray!" narrative.
The current situation absolutely sucks for many, many reasons.
Because the low-information voter doesn’t need to know deep details or long-established policy positions. The “double haters,” the anti-Trump centrists and republicans, and the people who have turned on Joe because of Gaza/inflation; all of them would welcome just any new name.
To be honest, this doesn’t affect my vote in the least. If Joe Biden dies in office, we get Kamala.
If these two men are our only choices…I mean god help us but also there’s still only one choice here.
This isn't about YOUR vote, person posting on Friend of the Pod reddit. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Biden's approval number goes down but the election polls stay the same after this debacle. It's about the voters who are disgusted by the choice of these two unacceptable candidates and will stay home. Or now the tiny amount of voters who don't like Trump at all but vote for competency--and give that vote to Trump.
So Biden had a cold? If that’s for real, I don’t understand why they couldn’t delay the debate. He was in no condition to effectively debate last night. He was so bad that his performance overshadows how deranged Trump was spouting his usual bullshit.
If the cold is just an excuse, and that’s just how he is now-huge problem. Not sure what you do about it.
I agree. It seems like a prepared excuse if he struggled.
I feel even worse now that I listened to the full pod. Apparently this has happened before, and Biden was like this at a fundraiser.
Again, I’m not sure where they go from here. Some people have said that it’s not unusual for incumbents to struggle in a debate, but this is different from Obama. He had a bad night for that debate, and his health/age wasn’t being questioned.
There does need to be a serious conversation and decision made now, though, about what Biden’s going to do.
I mean, I agree the debate was a disaster, but he really did sound sick from the start. His voice was hoarse throughout, and the older you are, the tougher it gets to fight through an illness.
Right but if he had been competent and hoarse that would have been fine. But he wasn’t, he was meandering and lost, couldn’t effectively push back against the most obvious lies and bullshit trump was spewing
I did start to wonder if he was sick fairly early on.
However, if he had a cold that was causing him to sound the way he did (obviously a cold doesn’t account for all of what we saw, but let’s say we accept that premise), the campaign *definitely* should have leaked it beforehand rather than 30-45 minutes in
I’m glad they didn’t sugar coat it. There’s a certain amount of denial going on amongst fellow Democrats. I understand where it’s coming from. We’ve never been in this situation before and it’s scary.
It’s not that we’re playing into a media-driven panicked narrative. What sets us apart from the fanatical sycophants of Donald Trump, is that we understand democracy and the state of the nation is bigger than any one person or campaign. What we saw wasn’t a deep fake or a doctored video clip being pushed as disinformation. It’s something we’ve been seeing in the Juneteenth celebration video and his performance at the recent LA fundraiser: he is neither no longer up to the job of President for an additional four years nor is he up to job of rigorously campaigning at the level the 2024 race calls for.
He’s been a consequential, Progressive President that kicked trump out of the White House amidst an unprecedented once-in-a-lifetime pandemic. We saved lives because he and VP Harris salvaged the tail end of it and got shots into arms and treatments to keep folks out of hospitals. We’ll thank him and honor his legacy at the next inauguration Jan 2025 when he hands the reins to the President elect of whoever we coalesce behind after an Open Convention this Summer.
The risk calculation is too great otherwise. The polls reflect this. The fundraising reflects this. And his performance tonight reflect this. He’d of course do a better job than trump the next four years, but this race needs to win over swaths of Independents, Swing Voters, and Republicans. We’ve already hemorrhaged support bc of his awful Gaza policy. We can’t afford to further alienate what voters there are left to win over.
Ultimately I believe Joe Biden is a good man who has done so much for his country. But Jesus Christ last night was grim. Lovett nailed it when he talked about the same patriotism that made him run should now have him reflect on last night.
The left wing of the party has been talking about this for ages, and their only mistake is being correct too early. There should have been a real primary at the very least.
Incumbents almost never face a primary and if they do, it usually leads to that party losing in the general. I would have liked someone other than Biden but once he chose to run again, a primary was never going to happen.
If you're still completely unwilling to have the conversation you're just complicit at this point. If you liked what you saw last night you need to get in touch with reality and the perception of the average voter.
I don’t understand how the guy I just watched at the Raleigh rally today is the same guy from last night. Where was this all energy last night?! He’s up there on attack, rattling off accomplishments like it’s October 2020. The disparity is wild.
No one is glaring at you while you have 2 minutes to make a point without a teleprompter before the other guy gets to lie for a minute with no fact checking.
Today was a friendly crowd
“Calling for the debate about whether Biden should drop out” is not the debate we should be having. That’s a weasel phrase.
The debate we should be having is who is going to replace him.
The quicker the better.
The train is headed for the cliff. Can the DNC find it in themselves to pull the emergency brake.
Part of me wonders if it isn't the best idea to just rip the band-aid off now, and for him to announce that he's done this weekend. Gives the party a bit of time to breathe and regroup before the stretch run.
Can we please have an open convention, and can it please lead to Pete Buttigieg or someone of similar ability being nominated. I will literally vote for a can of Goya beans over Trump, but this was very damaging to Biden’s thin margins.
Agreed completely! People act like Biden is the only option, but his chances of winning are less than a coin toss. There is virtually nothing to lose by trying someone else, but a lot that could be gained.
I know. People keep saying "Oh, don't change the horses midstream. He's the incumbent!" but like, is it doing us any good!? He's losing, he's been losing, and now he's gonna be losing by more. I don't think there's any advantage he's giving us right now that isn't outweighed by the liabilities.
You’re hitting on something called the Sunk Cost Fallacy- the behavior to not change course because you’ve gone too far. It’s not true, there’s always an oppurtunity to change your (our) behavior, our thinking.
That… seems unlikely. This was her whole gamble basically, stepping in. I think everyone assumed it would be after 1 term. Joe got the Isildur Syndrome and couldn’t let the power go when he got to the precipice
why do people keep throwing out Petes name? this country couldnt handle a black man or a woman being president but you think theyll vote for a gay man? Also, Petes been MIA, he doesnt even have favorable views from the Dem party. They need to put someone up who has deep connections and charisma that can rally people in the next 5 months.
The guys keep praising Biden’s staff and advisors as being the best of the best. And they might indeed be very good at governing.
But the people around Biden are at fault here. It is clear that none of them have been telling Biden the truth about his capacity. Where is Jill Biden? If she loves her husband, which I believe she does, how can she let him go out there like that? Is there anyone holding up a mirror to Biden?
It was the same thing with Feinstein’s staff. They’re either blinded by affection for their boss, or more likely, being selfish in their unwillingness to give up power.
I think Feinstein and Ginsburg are to glaring examples on the left of selfishly holding on to power for too long. But this is not a left-only issue. Grassley is fucking 90! McConnell is makes Biden look like a spring chicken. We live in a boomer gerontocracy, and it has to stop! The median age of the Senate is over 65. Meaning, the median senator graduated from college in 1980 - a completely different world than today.
I was thinking the same thing lol. I’m sure they’re technically proficient and lovely people, but Joe Biden needs to fire everyone in this godawful campaign. Whoever his debate preppers were failed him.
And then what? Replace them with another set of advisors that are incentivized to withhold the hard truth from him? A different set of advisors are not going to make Biden younger, quicker, and energetic. Biden needs those who love him to hold up a mirror and deliver the hard truth, and hopefully Biden can make a plan to drop out of the race.
Yeah what the fuck Jill. They're all enablers. It's like your grandma who still has her driver's license at 80. You don't let her keep driving! You TAKE AWAY THOSE CAR KEYS.
My prediction:
Merchan sentences trump to prison
Trump appeals
Biden holds nomination and does a never before seen tactic explaining the truth, "in June 2025 I plan to resign and turn over the administration to VP"
Trump Appeal fails and he is in prison for like a week
Trump's prison time breaks him even further.
Trump accepts Jesus into his heart from a prayer in the penitentiary and God tells him to become a pastor.
The new mega church becomes a billion dollar enterprise with the trump family preaching all over the world because property for churches is untaxed. It's not a church it's a fundraising real estate business.
Meanwhile Now president Harris continues to prosecute citizen pastor trump. Rev. Donny 45 preaches against the persecution of Christian's from the leftist satanic worshipers.
Rev. Felon DJT accumulates 100 convictions and is in process of appealing most of them. One of them puts him in prison in 2026.
Trump has a televangelist sermon from his one phone call from prison and gets special religious exemption to "preach" every Sunday.
If this election is as important as Biden says it is, then he needs to drop out ASAP. And if he can't see how badly he fucked up, then he truly has lost it.
I will forever respect president Biden for what he has done after being handed over such cluster fack from Trump. He made me less worried to live in this country. He truly love this country and has the decency and empathy you want from a president. He is surrounded by competent people who are doing a good job. He pledged to invest in womens health research when reelected, which is desperately needed.
That being said, Biden was always a « lets restore normalcy » president. So why at 81yo does he run again? Sure, people can bring up « well the incumbent has to run again because …. » BECAUSE WHAT? Times change. Him being a unapologetic 1 term president mentoring brillant politicians to run would have been such a graceful exit. Let grandpop enjoy a deserved break.
It isn’t too late we are in June. Again, lets live in reality. We could have Kamala, Newsom and Mayor Pete give it a real chance and get us ALL excited to beat the shit of these nazi sympathizers.
“There’s a lot of messy, complicated, confusing unknowns ahead of us. But, the first step is- let’s have the debate of which path is riskiest. Is the riskiest path sticking with Joe Biden? Or is the riskiest path saying “We want someone else”. And anybody who says that that is not a tough call right now, is full of fucking shit”
What we saw last night was an exhausted, confused, elderly man, who struggled to string together a single coherent sentence. I think Biden is good person, but he should not be president again. He said he was going to be a bridge to the next generation - what happened to that?
If the democrats nominate Biden, we will get 4 more years of Trump. Now is the time to fucking panic.
I would vote for a ham sandwich for president over Trump, but the 10k swing voters we are fighting for in Wisconsin, Georgia, and Nevada... I doubt it.
What happened? The corporations who own the overwhelming majority of our political process are terrified of the younger Dems.
See, the younger folks are motivated to fix things that aren’t working for Americans, and the rich can’t have that.
The quickness and unanimity of the democratic response makes me feel like ppl were waiting for the debate as an excuse to say what they’ve all known and seen for many months. It was foolish, reckless, and selfish for Biden to run again
I'm out. I've been a Biden apologist for years now. But this has to stop. Last night's performance was unacceptable.
Biden has good days and bad days. That's great for an 81-year-old man. But it's not acceptable for a candidate for the president of the United States, and it's not acceptable for a Commander-in-chief.
It is not too late for all of us to call on Biden to withdraw. If he won’t withdraw, it’s not too late that we insist on a contested brokered convention. The second and third-day news stories must be about how voters on social media are speaking with a single voice on this.
President Biden. Thank you for your service. It is time to withdraw.
I saw some comments last night of people saying things like "my husband and I thought Biden did great. It's just the media that is saying he did bad, not normal people" and I guess I'm glad to know my instincts aren't so out of whack that those people were correct.
The debate and the subsequent discussion has made me think of the parallel between Joe Biden's and George Washington's situations. I think this comparison is the best pitch we could make to Biden to get him to consider stepping down. Is there any better argument we could offer his advisors?
I think the most effective pitch to Biden is to paint his choice as reflecting George Washington's choice. If he steps aside, he is a hero and a historically great president that preserves our democracy, just like George Washington was a hero for creating the tradition of the succession in the first place.
His retirement and the probable landslide for any other generic dem would cement his legacy as a hero in American history. His retirement effectively beats Trump twice. His legislative and economic record should go down in history as top 10, maybe top 5 of all time. But if he holds on too long and fumbles the election he will tarnish his legacy.
Therefore, we need to convince him to allow Democrats to pick a new nominee at the convention.
Unfortunately as with the example of RBG, and most everyone knows from personal examples, people of advanced age are rarely able to take the decision to step aside because of age concerns. And no one can force Biden not to run.
If he can see the decision in a way that's good for his ego, if he can put his legacy next to George Washington's, I think he may retire.
This is exactly it. If he steps down for the country he is the man who defeated Trump and brought us through the Covid crisis. Then let new leadership take over.
If he tries to run for reelection he’s the man who lost to Donald Trump
I posted this 10 months ago:
"Biden has done a good job as president. He's passed bills addressing most of the important issues of our time with a congress that was basically 50/50. The IRA does much to address climate and healthcare. The infrastructure bill really is a the biggest investment in infrastructure in decades and he got it done when other presidents have repeatedly talked about it. The PACT act is a big deal for veterans. The CHIPs act is a big deal for national security, supply chains, and American manufacturing. The Safer Communities Act isn't nearly enough but it is the first gun reform in decades. Biden works, he's substantive, he's experienced, he's not prone to emotional outbursts, he can work across the isle, he's empathic and thoughtful. He has a lot of great qualities.
Biden is also old. He's never been a great speaker. He has a tendency to ramble on. He misspeaks and he has a tendency to gaffe. This means that he isn't the best messenger for most of the success of his administration mentioned above. There is also a conservative media ecosystem that is a propaganda machine that uses his age and his missteps to drive a narrative of "dementia" or that he "doesn't know what room he's in." These narratives are effective when directed at republican voters in that echo chamber and they're effective in tiktoks to voters who aren't particularly engaged. However if you watch Biden at length in a speech or town hall you see that he's fine. He's old but hes not about to drool on himself or shit himself on stage or something. The bar is set so low that he can sometimes easily step over it.
All that to say that I believe Biden deserves a second term. He will do a good job in a second term if he gets the chance. But I also believe that the right wing in America today, and specifically Donald Trump are incredibly dangerous, so electability is the most important thing. I see Bidens polling and I see a general mood in the country for something new. Although it obviously wont happen, my preference would be for Biden to willingly step aside. The selflessness wouldn't go unnoticed and Democrats currently have a very deep bench. We would get a chance to see Josh Shapiro, JB Pritzker, Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar, Gretchen Whitmer, Chris Murphy, Cory Booker, Gavin Newsome, Jared Polis, Wes Moore, Raphael Warnock, etc."
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/16583hq/comment/jyjm2kp/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/16583hq/comment/jyjm2kp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I think it holds up pretty well today. Joe is great, but in an election like this, where we can't afford to lose, we need a JFK, Bill Clinton, Obama level messenger, and that's just not Joe.
In 2020, the agreement with all of us, was that he would be a one-term president. He would beat Trump, right the ship and head out because everyone was concerned about his age even then. Him going for reelection was not part of the deal. And now he has unfortunately proven the age concerns to be true on full display for the entire world to see.
Gavin Newsom’s phone has probably been ringing nonstop since 6:15pm (pacific time for you east coasters) last night. Same with Pete Buttigieg.
Trump probably won’t accept another debate request given how lopsided this one is being taken, but the Biden camp should be doing everything they can to get back on the stage. They need counter evidence to that performance.
I’ve been around a lot of 80 year olds when they hit the slide, and it’s precipitously fast
The damage is done. Even if he gives great speeches every day from now until November 4, the clips from this debate is all any swing voter is going to see or remember. He needs to quit the race now. Please call your representatives, assuming you have Democratic ones, and tell them to join the pressure campaign.
Since everyone is starting to throw around their bad takes about why this is Stacy Abrams' moment or how Andy Beshear is going to save us, let me offer a bad take of my own.
The problem with anointing a replacement for Biden is there are too many ambitious democrats who might not go along with. \*cough\* Kamala. And how to we avoid antagonizing certain demographics like black women by passing Kamala over?
My suggestion? Don't just announce a nominee and ticket. **Announce a cabinet.** UK parties always have their shadow cabinet that communicates to voters who their ministers would be if they took power, Democrats should do that when we're out of power. It's a great way to build and assess the power of our bench. These aren't my picks, but let's just use this as an example.
President: Newsom
VP: Abrams
Sec. of State: Harris
UN Ambassador: Buttegieg
Attorney General: Beshear
Interior: Haaland
You get the idea. Everyone who wants to run for president in the next few terms gets some high level experience and time in the sun. Everyone is in the same boat and rowing in the same direction. No one feels left out and because everyone is on stage smiling and waving together, which group of voters is going to feel alienated.
A Nominee, VP, and prospective cabinet standing on stage at the convention COMPLETELY changes the dynamic of this election and CRUSHES the Republicans.
To everyone who is now in the "Biden should step aside camp", fine. I, like the Pod guys, no longer think it is absurd to have this discussion. But if that is what you want you need to come to terms that it would be Harris. If you think Harris is a better candidate, great, make that case. If you think Biden's risk of losing is less than Harris', fine, make that case. But there is no "the president has already won the primary but is stepping down and the party insiders that serve as delegates ignore the sitting VP in favor of some governor" option.
It's Biden or it's Harris.
edit: Another reason, in addition the many below, it would 10000% absolutely be Harris is that the Biden-Harris ticket has about 220 million dollars in the bank that can only be used by...Joe Biden or Kamala Harris! The party insiders and delegates who would vote in a contested convention are not gonna give up 220 million dollars and voluntarily have to redo a full year of fundraising in order to choose Whitmer or Newsom instead (tbh this fundraising aspect is why you might not even see Harris get challenged for the nomination in this scenario). Biden can either stay in the race or he can step aside. If he steps aside, Harris will be the nominee.
I think the bottom line is incumbancy in this case isn't an advantage and in the current match up good money has Trump winning. I'll take any shake up/drama after last night.
Why would it necessarily be Harris?
I think she’d make a great President, and I wanted her to win the primary in 202. But I acknowledge that she’s unpopular and therefore would be the wrong choice.
Newsom, Whitmer, and Buttigieg would make great picks.
Being honest, I really like the crooked crew, I am way more progressive and have so many problems with liberals, but through crooked we have seen a great level of insight from people working at the White House really pushing a democratic political agenda and I still love this and continue to enjoy the shows and their mission, even at the times I personally do not agree with their ideas or methods.
But openly saying that it is imperitive to have the debate now before the convention about whether or not Biden should be the nominee (agree completely) because his performance last night was enough to scare them when progressives and young people have been saying this for a year, and more realistically since 2020 when they showed up for Biden in solidarity against Trump does aggrivate me. This idea only gets harder and messier the closer to the election but only now do liberals seem to want to have that conversation after beating down anyone on the left that didn't want to see Biden for very reasonable concerns prior
Getting rid of a candidate over hypothetical concerns rather than real concerns seems very different. Before the debate I saw a stable old man. Now I just see an old man. That’s not going to win against Trump.
I think the problem is the writing was on the wall already. It may have been hypothetical in that Biden was and honestly still seems sharp for his age, but 80 is 80 and we've already had fallout from RGB, Feinstien, and McConnel during this presidency. Young people do not want to see people so old they can't even have a coherent or sensible hearing on tech and the like, much less being seated in the highest office.
The age was a concern for a large number of voters in 2020 but there was energy and motivation to take the step out of necessity and people showed up. Even the Biden campaign seemed clued into that with the illusions to Biden being a 1 term or "transitional" president even though he obviously didn't say that directly. I won't hold that idea against him as a broken promise, but I know people in this campaign were aware of these concerns because they were already present the last time, it was always a shaky bet on that alone, voters are fickle and "young" voters including middle aged millennials are tired of only being offered the choice to vote against Trump, and not for something.
The question of whether or not Biden should drop out isn't as simple as you make it sound. I've always agreed with you; I wish that Biden would have deliberately acted as a bridge to the next generation. But Biden's done a great job as President, and he's the only person who's beaten Donald Trump. In addition, there's not a clear successor who can unite the party; an open primary would have been messy and split the donors. In retrospect, it was obviously a hell of a gamble for Biden to stay in, but it would also have been a gamble for Biden to drop out.
I agree with you. I also worry about the legal issues. If Dems replace the ticket, can they get on the ballot in every state at this point?
If a new candidate beats Trump, and let's say it's a super narrow win, would it withstand a legal challenge that might end up decided by Sam Alito and the like?
We aren't up against a party that operates in good faith, or would be above pulling every lever imaginable to nullify an outcome they don't like. Hell, Ohio Republicans have been trying to keep Biden off the ballot there on a technical issue.
The boys have been hinting discomfort with Biden for a while, but they're in a tough spot. The conversation has the potential to be very damaging. I think last night the gloves came off. No conversation can do as much damage as Biden did to himself.
I agree that the boys are tuned enough that they were a bit worried, but its hard to see people so tuned in and smart with politics feel that you can't hit the alert until the last possible minute.
My personal politics aside Biden has largely still been the best president of my lifetime and I can say that while acknowledging my own problems with either him or the larger political leanings of the office/America, but right or wrong age alone was always a concern. I think Joe has good intentions but there's also something about the type of person that has the drive and will to make it to the office of president that should make everyone hold them to a standard. End of the day, part of the reason Joe is running again is ego, he fought to be president, he did a good job, why should he have to step aside. I can relate to that on a personal level, but the rest of us should be there holding him to account long before we got to this point.
Biden has been fantastic as president and nobody should argue that this is a super easy call to make from his perspective. Had he stepped down in 2023, the party might have eaten itself alive over immigration and gaza in the primary and there would be a wounded nominee right now and people might be talking about Biden stepping in. Whatever path we take, if we lose people will say we should've done the other thing.
I can see why given the context of the travel schedule they didn't want to fan the flames since there was a reasonable enough excuse, but it coming up now as a sign of the problem retroactively hurts a bit. I think these guys are really smart and experienced in politics, but anyone can get in their own way and one set of fears causing one course of action being replaced by another set of fears moving in the other direction scares me. If there actually is any movement from Biden or the DNC to move things now it could work out, but this is just about the worst possible time to face it.
Came here looking for this comment, I’m so salty about it. People freaking out all of a sudden when we’ve BEEN telling you for literal years and were met with complete disrespect and ridicule.
The GOP falls in line because they have cultivated a base that votes downline and even ignores or is willfully or otherwise ignorant of policies that will be inacted.
If the DNC wants to be the big tent for liberals, progressives, leftist, and anyone else center and left they have to accept that there won't be agreement and that some concerns are worth compromising on. Even before Gaza young people and progressives were more geared for change, voting blue down ticket is a reasonable first step in battling the aggressive policies of the GOP and one I will continue to do, but pushing your messaging to blue no matter who and democracy is at stake is a page to similar to the GOPs playbook and will alienate people even before we get to a scenario as bad as this.
The boys are very smart and experienced politically so I guess it's just sad to see them drag their feet until this point, even if they paid lip service to some of these concerns lightly in the past.
It depends on what you've been telling people. I've heard a lot of people, including myself, say "I have a lot of concerns about his age, and it's possible that he's less sharp than he was under Obama. That said, he's clearly capable of doing the job. I'm worried about his ability to do the job for 4 years, but he's still a capable candidate and he's the only person who's won against Trump." I've never been disrespected for expressing that sentiment.
What \*used to be\* ridiculous is saying, "He's not capable of doing the job." Based on various appearances - Seth Meyers, SOTU, Howard Stern - it was clear that he was still capable of doing the job. The debate was really the first public appearance where it was clear how much he's ailing.
Trump is an unconventional candidate to say the least - he's unpopular, tried to overturn an election, impeached twice, convicted rapist and felon, misogynist, handled the pandemic horribly, and becomes incoherent after a while on stage. His lunatic base is voting for him and republicans are voting for the non-democrat.
It sounds crazy to replace Biden now, but it's not that far fetched. The general population is sick of both these candidates. If another candidate came in with great charisma and an impeccably clean background, there very well could be enough momentum to bring the swing voters to the poll. Emotions need to be taken out and the stats people need to figure out which path is better after the debate.
**synopsis;** Joe Biden turns in a disastrous debate performance, missing an opportunity to take advantage of Donald Trump’s (many) lies and unhinged moments, and sowing real doubt about his strength as a candidate over the long run. Jon, Lovett, Tommy, and Dan discuss what went wrong and what might happen now. **[youtube version](https://youtu.be/x1FiC44Z9BA?si=EUoy-CY48sRfL0Oh)**
I’m just happy they were realistic with what we got last night and didn’t try to convince us it was a win. It’s ok to judge Biden’s performance and think about what should happens next. It’s not a cult.
Wasn’t the pod just discussing that Biden had been holed up preparing with his team? What the fuck did they spend all that time doing?
Apparently telling him when talking about his best issue (abortion) where Trump is tripling down on a deeply unpopular stance, the best thing to do is incoherently pivot to immigration (Biden’s worst issue)
The best offense is a bad defense?
Not curing his cold. That's for sure.
I thought his head was too full and he kept ping-ponging putting different facts/ideas together that don't belong. it was abysmal
This has been a very sobering 12 hours
Sure if by sobering you mean half a bottle in.
This was a refreshingly honest pod for a change. I just wish we (Dems) could have been honest with ourselves about Biden’s age and the optics of it a year or two ago. He would have been a great 1 term president.
And frankly, a lot of Dems owe an apology for the fucking endless gaslighting and dismissals they delivered to folks who were sounding this alarm for the last two years.
As a Progressive, I am already gearing up to be blamed for the eventual loss of the election
I feel like we’re preemptively being blamed for voicing legitimate concerns about Biden at all. This has been going on for years(!!!) despite many of us volunteering our time and money to get Democrats elected. I’m tired.
You are absolutely right
Hear hear. This is the worst sort of “I fucking told you so.”
Fucking SERIOUSLY. I've been shit on relentlessly in this sub for the last year saying the exact same thing the pod guys are saying now. Where's all those "like it or not, bidens the nominee and biden won the primary so suck it up and don't say anything bad about him" people now?
you and me both getting down voted and called "Trump lover" cause I spoke the truth that Biden is a poor general election candidate.
The problem isn't that Biden is 81. The problem is that he acted and sounded like he's 91. This is someone who debated very strongly from 2007 to 2020 and the degradation is absolutely shocking.
Dan summed it up perfectly a couple pods ago leading up to the debate: “what he says is less important than how he says it”. And, unfortunately, the same goes for Trump, who’s raving lunatic energy is going to cover for the actual lunacy of his words.
Exactly. Bernie Sanders is 82 and he hasn’t missed a step.
Yep. Sanders is also too old to run for POTUS IMO, but he would have wiped the floor with Trump last night. He's still sharp and clear and articulate. Biden was none of those things.
Admittedly, this is from a Republican, but a friend of mine said (after the debate), "I need a president who isn't incapacitated by a cold."
I want Schooling Paul Ryan Biden back. That guy would eat Trump's lunch and still have room for more
Exactly. If I don’t view the moment as such an existential threat, I’d have a real hard time voting for him. If this is what he looks like NOW, what about two years from now?!
Lovett’s monologue at the 8-ish minute mark needs to be clipped and played to Biden and anyone else enabling him. It’s compassionate while also highlighting the stakes of continuing on the current path.
Agreed, I thought his line about “the same patriotism that initially drew you to run should draw you to engage with this conversation after what we just saw” was a good one that would resonate with Biden
That was so perfectly articulated. Loved it
Yall, lets just be mature and acknowledge there is insane risk here in every scenario. Biden sticking in with potentially no more chances to directly contrast is risky. Him stepping aside in favor of someone else on a rushed convention timeline is also super risky. There are two options that Joe Biden and only Joe Biden must choose between in my opinion: A) Stay in the race, do not open the can of worms and do the chaotic thing, do what you can to make the case effectively, and keep up your great advertising and organizing strategy. B) Step aside and withdraw from the race, open the can of worms, deal with all the noise and the drama, but once the dust settles let the party get behind a ticket of Kamala Harris and Josh Shapiro/Roy Cooper/JB Pritzker Both of these strategies have insane risks and pros and cons and you can make a very rational argument for both. There is no "cleanly and quickly make Whitmer or Pritzker the nominee" option. It would be the Vice President.
I vote for him to step aside. Biden is going to lose. Another candidate MIGHT have a chance. But Biden lost the election last night
Unfortunately, I agree.
At this point I think our best option collectively is to combine our energies in thinking about what we're going to do to mitigate and, to the extent possible, prevent Project 2025. And beyond Project 2025 we're going to have to figure out what our plans are to deal with a Supreme Court that has five Trump Justices and may ultimately end up being a seven to ultra-conservative dominated Supreme Court for a generation. I think that the America my 6-year-old son inherits is not going to look anything like America of today. We're going to have to take a page out of the playbook of the pro-life movement and think in the terms of decades. Biden just fucked us all for the next 50 years
If the new ticket is Kamala you might as well just inaugurate trump now. She will not win, period The best option is a Whitmer, maybe Walz (although good luck getting Minnesota to part with him)
I think Newsom is the best option. I think he's been getting ready all year.
Problem with debates is that democrats want to see who will be the best Chief Executive. We want policy, but these debates are generally meant to show who is the best Head of State, a symbol, and unfortunately, Trump, even with the bullshit spewing out of his mouth, won yesterday. He looked more energetic by a mile.
Yeah, no one learned in history class that Kennedy beat Nixon in that first televised debate because he was more accurate or factual than Nixon. It’s because he won the optics battle. Presidential debates are pageantry.
How I feel after last night. But I appreciate the guys for being blunt. Even Ezra Klein was like WELLLP. [morph ](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/449867450274889604/) 
Haven’t we done this argument before with Justice Ginsburg? Have we learned nothing?
And Feinstein, McConnel, and who knows how many more. Is there anything more American than not being able to candidly speak to elderly people about when it's time to acknowledge things aren't the same? My coworker's dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's long enough ago that three years ago she was already telling me stories of him forgetting where he was sometimes. I asked if he was still driving and they were so offended at the suggestion I ended up getting a reprimand from HR.
Mad respect to these guys for being honest and not trying to spin it. We all saw the debate. We all had our non-political friends texting us like WHAT IS HAPPENING? If we truly believe democracy is on the line, we have to send our best. Biden is not our best. He’s a good man and did some great things as president, but between voters who think he’s Genocide Joe and voters who think he’s senile, it’s clear that he cannot communicate the way he needs to in order to inspire confidence. So many people in this thread are acting like last night was no big deal. I beg you to talk to anyone. Literally any person in your life who isn’t a ride-or-die democrat.
All my ride or die democrats are freaking out too
Same here lol I just literally cannot comprehend how people can look at what we saw and think anything other than “we have a massive problem”
I'm as ride or die Democrat as they come and I'm shitting my pants.
Yep that’s the piece people are glancing over because it was a debate. My non-political friends were also texting me the same last night… I didn’t even think they’d be watching. I haven’t been this negative since 2016 when I was trying to tell people how the general population just didn’t like Hillary.
>I haven’t been this negative since 2016 when I was trying to tell people how the general population just didn’t like Hillary. Same. They won't listen this time either but will happily blame us if Trump wins.
Ride or die Democrat(ic voter) here and I also think he needs to drop out now. The risks of a brokered convention are still better than the 0% chance of winning if Biden stays in.
I’m not a ride or die democrat, I would have voted for Chris Christie if he was the GOP nominee over Biden. That said, if the other option is Trump, I will vote for a vegetable over what would happen to America if Trump gains power again
[удалено]
Tommy said something to the effect of that there is still no question as to whether Joe Biden can handle the job of President. Sure, that’s not a question for the last 3.5 years or maybe even the next 6 months. But there is absolutely a question as to whether he can do the job the next 4 years - that’s the entire question. He’s clearly declining from where he was in 2020, and if anyone has been around people in their 80s, they fade fast. Actuarily, there’s a question whether he’ll even be around in 4 years.
Yup, this was so worrying for the election but also for Biden as a person. We desperately need a new candidate, and Biden desperately needs to live his remaining years in peace. That was just tragic to watch, above all else.
This!
I wonder if they will bring up Dean Phillips mentioning this when he was on the Pod saying that his Biden's. policies are the best but the perception of the president is going to be more important when going against Trump.
He was right but the wrong messenger.
Dude fuck that guy though.
I think sometimes fans of the pod misunderstand who the audience is for this show. There are no swing voters listening to Pod Save. There are no republicans hearing this conversation. There are barely any leftists hearing these conversations. JJTD speak mostly to very-active consistent Democratic (mostly white) voters. Them having this conversation is NOT damaging. Everyone listening to this pod is READY to vote for Joe Biden if they need to. But Joe Biden made a case against his own nomination last night and it is very worth having this conversation now. We all want to make sure Trump cannot win in November. If that means having a difficult conversation now while there's still a chance, that conversation should be had. If it turns out Biden's the guy, we go all in. But we are losing this race right now. And if having a candidate who can articulate a thought without a teleprompter can help us beat Donald Trump, then dear god I hope we change candidates. I love Joe Biden. I think he has accomplished way more than Obama ever did. If Trump is as big of a threat as we all know he is, I think the most patriotic think Joe can do is step aside.
Here's the thing: this is not about Joe Biden. This is about beating Donald Trump. Joe Biden has been a good President and has done a great service to this country, and I have supported him the entire time, at no point, until last night, did I ever feel he could not do the job. Is it fair? No. Biden was probably the only person who could have beaten Trump in 2020. But if he stays in the race because of ego, or whatever then he is doing a disservice to himself and the country. If he stays in fine. But then his full time job over the next 4 months is showing us he is capable to do this job. He needs to walk directly into the lions den and prove he is competent. He needs to go on Fox, he needs to talk to the NYT. He can't run a campaign where they hide him away from the press anymore. That is the price his campaign pays for setting up this debate and then flubbing it so terribly.
The worst part is Joe Biden could have been a great one term president, who focused on rebuilding after COVID AND also trained a protege to slide into a great 2024 ticket set up. Instead, alongside every other 70+ year old establishment Dem who is refusing to pass the torch to the next generation, we have Joe Biden who doesn’t seem to have one minority group happen with him, and damaging the ticket in November.
Right? He would have gone down as a legend. The myth of his one-term mic drop presidency would have made him stand out from every other president for a hundred years. I wonder if Trump hadn't run again, if Biden would have retired after one.
I keep asking myself what were they thinking?
It's Diane Feinstein all over again.
I'm right there with you. I love Joe. He is a good husband to his wife, a good father to his children, a good man in this country and he is a good president. However, the country needs a charismatic person to unite the people and overcome the lies and propaganda from the far right.
Who cares if the conversation is damaging? It needs to be had. I have been an enthusiastic supporter of Joe and will be checking the box for him in November, but let’s be honest: against any candidate other than Donald Trump, that debate performance would be disqualifying and unrecoverable. It’s entirely possible Joe lost the election last night, and therefore the risk of replacing him is far, far less than it was last week. I don’t like it but this is where we are.
If it was trump who had that performance we'd feel pretty good about winning
I will vote democrat up and down the ticket but I pray that someone grows a set of balls and we get a new nominee out of the convention. This is bigger than one man’s ego
Unfortunately most of the people that could make that decision are from the same generation as him - known for their ego, their death grip on power and refusal to have any sort of self awareness or respect for the public they are supposed to be serving
I live in PA and I'm calling my congressman and both senators today to ask them to put pressure on Biden to quit the race. I hope everybody who lives in a swing state (and really anybody who is represented by Democratic officials) will do the same. I understand the risks involved with replacing a candidate at this point in an election cycle. But the alternative is a *guaranteed* loss to Trump. Biden's chances at winning in November ended with "we beat Medicare." We have to face reality here.
If there’s one thing the party leaders are fantastic at it’s learning absolutely nothing from the obvious and trying the same shit over and over.
I'm just 15 minutes in, but it is pure, somber, level-headed call for Biden to drop out. Personally, I can just no longer picture Biden as being fit for the job. I don't think he's fit today. I can't imagine he can be fit 3 years down the line. We need a better candidate to defeat Trump and govern our country.
Well, I guess now they definitely won't get someone from the White House to come on the Pod.
Who’s the better candidate?
A Governor from a midwestern state who can pull the absolutely necessary MI/WI/PA swing states for dems. Whitmer or Shapiro.
Probably any 40 or 50 something year old Democratic Governor or Senator from a state other than California, New York, or Illinois.
Newsom can rally the base and independents well, but I agree that Whitmer would absolutely be the better choice.
My worry with Newsom is that he’s basically the spitting image of the “coastal elite” caricature that right wing media has spent the last 3 decades crafting. There’s plenty you can attack him with from homelessness to Californians paying obscene rates for electricity due to all the rate hikes under his watch, the French Laundry incident, etc... I think he would be a fine president, just think he would struggle to reach swing voters in the Midwest, Pennsylvania, Arizona, and Nevada. Which is why I think someone like Whitmer or Shapiro would be best.
😓 I guess I was expecting a little bit of optimism but this was a pretty… devastatingly raw reaction from the boys. Honestly, I love Biden. I think he can still.. mostly do the job. My grandmother raised six kids and ran a successful business until the age of 92. I think he’s a smart, capable politician, a good man, an extremely effective president, and has an amazing team in place. But the boys are right. It’s not just about his ability to do a good job as president. It’s about being able to sell him to voters and he is just not sellable anymore. It’s SO risky to keep him on the ticket. 😭 Also, good point brought up several times—why the fuck did Biden’s team go out of their way to make this debate happen? The only thing i can think of is that Biden somehow just crashed for, like, the first time ever? Sorry if this was rambling. I’m just panicking out loud I guess.
Tommy's response was the one that resonated most with me. My doubt isn't with his ability to do the job. He has proven he can do it. But optics play a huge role. And after last night, it's a bad situation. I was so nervous and didn't understand the insistence on their timing of this after all the foreign trips. Hell, even the best of us would be wiped after the slate he has recently run. I did not expect it to be quite as bad as it was last night.
Me too. We are looking such slim margins to win elections. I was hoping for Dark Brandon and he just could not get it together. But we know that Joe Biden will put together an experienced and effective administration. Trump only has ass kissing sycophants.
Australian here. This situation is what political parties are for. A national leader on a path to destruction requires a responsible political party to act. In most parliamentary systems, this is the time when all reasonable politicians would be running the numbers on leadership spills and transition strategies. The Republican party wasn't institutionally strong enough to get rid of Trump in the best interests of the party and country. The Biden situation is not the same, but the Democratic party is in a situation where they have to act for the good of party and country. Not by coup but by persuasion of Biden to transition out.
This is the issue with the US system. There is no succession plan. Any rando can walk off the street and run for president. In parliamentary systems the leaders often come up through party ranks and have been in the system for years before ascending to leadership.
It's a bit different in america because our electors are basically randos. In a parliamentary system the leader is chosen by democratically elected representatives who are actual politicians as opposed to just like political enthusiasts. Still, honestly, its hard to make a worse choice than continuing to do the same thing that hasn't worked.
You're absolutely right that it is different. But political parties and the strong politicians within them have more ways of acting than just voting on a convention floor. And often parliamentary party leaders step down when they are made aware the party thinks their time is up.
I was a bit confused as to why they said if he wants to run he can run. What's the point of having a party then?
Really good pod tbh.
I’m hoping that the answer to why the powers-that-be in the Democratic Party pushed for a debate this early is in case this happened. If this very probable scenario happened in October, the campaign would be completely over. But since it happened in June, it is not too late to reverse course and go to a contested convention where a new nominee is chosen. Because if that isn’t the case, then IDK, you can’t say that the DNC didn’t have ample opportunity to hit the breaks before they ran off the cliff.
I’ve been considering this possibility too—that they knew this might happen and wanted to avoid it happening in October. I don’t know how realistic it is, or whether it would be a better choice, but having this happen in June allows at least a sliver of time to have the conversation about alternatives.
I think your premise is right, but conclusion is too extreme. If it happens in June they can have several months of messaging and news cycles and criminal sentencing change the narrative.
If you’ve ever dealt with an aging parent, or loved one, you would know what you saw last night. This isn’t something that goes away. It gets worse. I know that look, I saw it on my dad for a year before he died. This is the take the keys away situation. A second debate will likely make matters worse. This wasn’t a cold and this isn’t 2012. We have time to change course and should do it now. Even if we can get him elected, he is not fit for the job anymore. He was a fantastic president, he is better than Trump. But he is in cognitive decline, that is normal for someone his age.
Exactly!! I keep saying the look in his eyes reminds me of my grandmother the year leading up to when she passed. If you know you know. Biden is good at heart, but he cannot handle this job anymore. It’s like an elderly person insisting they can still drive even when they have macular degeneration
Yup. It was really, really, tough to watch.
Exactly iykyk if you’ve ever seen it
It’s painful but you’re entirely right. And it’s not something you can spin or message away. This is something Americans have lived experience with. They know what aging decline looks like and anyone who watched last night knows they saw two men in serious decline.
And it actually seemed so much worse when he WASNT talking. That hanging jaw look is all you need to see. I’ll still vote for the corpse of Joe Biden over Trump; he’s been a great person and a great president, but this is scary shit. Four years of a lunatic dictator, or a degenerating old man…
My late uncle-in-law drove race cars for Mazda and Jaguar, held land speed records, and had driven stunts in a bond film. His family was all texting each other after the debate about the Christmas they came back home and after the first night together stepped to the side and all agreed they had to tell him he couldn't drive anymore. I don't understand why our party isn't doing that right now. Republicans are going to make the entire election a senility issue and while I would have called that bullshit intellectual dishonesty yesterday, I can't anymore. I was surprised to hear the hosts not acknowledge there's room for doubting if Biden is capable of delivering as commander and chief at all times.
They at least acknowledged that he isn’t the guy that can beat Trump. I’m literally staring at threads today defending what we all saw last night.
I think the worst part is, I totally understand that. I have done that. I am probably going to have to do that the closer we get to November. They want to defeat Trump and minimizing and moving past this moment are the only ways I think the campaign is going to acknowledge it. But at this moment, no matter how much I wish I didn't, I am forced to have a conversation with myself about how low of a bar I'm willing to accept in a President. And I don't know how if I'm feeling that way we're going to be able to improve our standing in swing states as the campaign (and international conflict) progresses.
I feel sick about it. I sat there thinking, what if this was 2 very moderate candidates, and I had a choice. I’m not even sure he’s going to be alive in 4 years. What I saw scared me
The guys sound defeated, rightfully so. Do y’all think there will be another debate in September? Also, wonder how Obama is feeling about this.
The only way if there is a debate in September is if Trump’s pride gets in the way. He would be stupid to give Biden a chance to fix this.
I mean honestly, why would Trump want another debate? He can coast on this until election night.
He needs to drop his campaign and pass the torch to someone who can form a coherent sentence. Last night was a campaign ending performance to independents and other people on the fence. How could anyone look at Biden's performance last night, and believe that he's up to 4 more years of the most demanding job in the world? It's so sad.
Every single NYT opinion piece is calling on Biden to drop out. Friedman: "Joe Biden Is a Good Man and a Good President. He Must Bow Out of the Race." Krugman: "The Best President of My Adult Life Needs to Withdraw" Cottle/Douthat/Klein: "Is Biden Too Old? America Got Its Answer." Bruni: "Biden Cannot Go On Like This" Kristof: "President Biden, It’s Time to Drop Out" Polgreen: "Kamala Harris Could Win This Election. Let Her."
I think Polgreen is off base
Yeah Kamala isn't going to be the savior we need
America still is too misogynistic and racist to accept Kamala. Which is sad and gross. But I want to win this election so I could care less who the choice is if they’re better than Biden and can win.
I'm also quite sure Kamala would also do even worse with progressives and young people given her reputation and resume. And while I hate that this continues to be true as far as what matters for electability, she has no charisma or personal appeal as far as I'm concerned. Boring and awkward does not move the needle, much less against a big personality (no matter how horrid) of Trump.
Even one day ago I would have thought this was impossible. I have to agree. Its time to move on.
Same
There needs to be a serious shift in thinking in Biden’s generation. It is honorable, helpful, strong, and forward thinking to mentor and bring up new generations of people into high roles. Biden could be a huge benefit for the party if he had decided to help by stepping down and by being that mentor and support for a future president who could have 8 years in them rather than trying to stay in for yet another 4 years. RGB- love her, but what a disaster for her legacy how that played out. There are too many examples. This is the USA- there are so many incredible, smart, charismatic, fabulous people if they are given a chance. At what point is it enough? At what point do people decide they’ll step down with dignity and give somebody else a hand up? I like Biden and am grateful he worked to get trump out. I am very sad to see this happen. I care for elderly people and this is just very hard to watch.
I was a huge Biden supporter. And I still am. But I do wish he chose not to run. Like they said on the pod, part of being a presidential candidate is being able to communicate effectively. He's failing at that. I'm worried now it's too late. A lot of potential presidents, Josh Shapiro, Whitmer etc are unproven on a national level. Newsome is probably the only one who has name recognition.
Everyone’s saying it’d be such a big risk to find a new candidate, and of course there’s a risk, but isn’t almost every American that isn’t hardcore MAGA wanting someone new? Why are we so scared to do something that is probably actually popular?
Democracy IS at risk with Trump & MAGA rep. Dems can grow a spine and re-assess their candidate, lets live in reality
Playing Devil's Advocate here: let's say the DNC trots out Gavin Newsom or Gretchen Whitmer (I don't think Kamala is electable). How are they supposed to get the name recognition that is required to win swing voters that aren't paying attention to politics? It's easy to say "Anyone but Biden!", but at some point, you have to be able to convince voters who aren't voting blue down the ballot. In addition, the credibility of the party itself is going to take a hit by replacing the candidate so late that we're back in the "Dems are in disarray!" narrative. The current situation absolutely sucks for many, many reasons.
Biden would endorse them and there’s a huge marketing budget. Swing voters might pay attention if the race pivoted away from a 2020 rematch.
Because the low-information voter doesn’t need to know deep details or long-established policy positions. The “double haters,” the anti-Trump centrists and republicans, and the people who have turned on Joe because of Gaza/inflation; all of them would welcome just any new name.
To be honest, this doesn’t affect my vote in the least. If Joe Biden dies in office, we get Kamala. If these two men are our only choices…I mean god help us but also there’s still only one choice here.
Nobody is worried about your votes. We're worried about the 100,000 votes by low engagement voters in swing states that will decide the election.
This isn't about YOUR vote, person posting on Friend of the Pod reddit. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Biden's approval number goes down but the election polls stay the same after this debacle. It's about the voters who are disgusted by the choice of these two unacceptable candidates and will stay home. Or now the tiny amount of voters who don't like Trump at all but vote for competency--and give that vote to Trump.
So Biden had a cold? If that’s for real, I don’t understand why they couldn’t delay the debate. He was in no condition to effectively debate last night. He was so bad that his performance overshadows how deranged Trump was spouting his usual bullshit. If the cold is just an excuse, and that’s just how he is now-huge problem. Not sure what you do about it.
A cold doesn’t explain what we saw
I agree. It seems like a prepared excuse if he struggled. I feel even worse now that I listened to the full pod. Apparently this has happened before, and Biden was like this at a fundraiser. Again, I’m not sure where they go from here. Some people have said that it’s not unusual for incumbents to struggle in a debate, but this is different from Obama. He had a bad night for that debate, and his health/age wasn’t being questioned. There does need to be a serious conversation and decision made now, though, about what Biden’s going to do.
I mean, I agree the debate was a disaster, but he really did sound sick from the start. His voice was hoarse throughout, and the older you are, the tougher it gets to fight through an illness.
Right but if he had been competent and hoarse that would have been fine. But he wasn’t, he was meandering and lost, couldn’t effectively push back against the most obvious lies and bullshit trump was spewing
I did start to wonder if he was sick fairly early on. However, if he had a cold that was causing him to sound the way he did (obviously a cold doesn’t account for all of what we saw, but let’s say we accept that premise), the campaign *definitely* should have leaked it beforehand rather than 30-45 minutes in
And that’s why I don’t believe the cold thing. That felt like a prepared excuse if he struggled.
I’m glad they didn’t sugar coat it. There’s a certain amount of denial going on amongst fellow Democrats. I understand where it’s coming from. We’ve never been in this situation before and it’s scary. It’s not that we’re playing into a media-driven panicked narrative. What sets us apart from the fanatical sycophants of Donald Trump, is that we understand democracy and the state of the nation is bigger than any one person or campaign. What we saw wasn’t a deep fake or a doctored video clip being pushed as disinformation. It’s something we’ve been seeing in the Juneteenth celebration video and his performance at the recent LA fundraiser: he is neither no longer up to the job of President for an additional four years nor is he up to job of rigorously campaigning at the level the 2024 race calls for. He’s been a consequential, Progressive President that kicked trump out of the White House amidst an unprecedented once-in-a-lifetime pandemic. We saved lives because he and VP Harris salvaged the tail end of it and got shots into arms and treatments to keep folks out of hospitals. We’ll thank him and honor his legacy at the next inauguration Jan 2025 when he hands the reins to the President elect of whoever we coalesce behind after an Open Convention this Summer. The risk calculation is too great otherwise. The polls reflect this. The fundraising reflects this. And his performance tonight reflect this. He’d of course do a better job than trump the next four years, but this race needs to win over swaths of Independents, Swing Voters, and Republicans. We’ve already hemorrhaged support bc of his awful Gaza policy. We can’t afford to further alienate what voters there are left to win over.
Amen
Ultimately I believe Joe Biden is a good man who has done so much for his country. But Jesus Christ last night was grim. Lovett nailed it when he talked about the same patriotism that made him run should now have him reflect on last night.
The left wing of the party has been talking about this for ages, and their only mistake is being correct too early. There should have been a real primary at the very least.
Incumbents almost never face a primary and if they do, it usually leads to that party losing in the general. I would have liked someone other than Biden but once he chose to run again, a primary was never going to happen.
If you're still completely unwilling to have the conversation you're just complicit at this point. If you liked what you saw last night you need to get in touch with reality and the perception of the average voter.
If you liked what you saw last night you’re a republican lol. They just had a great night
Anyone else angry at Democratic leadership? I'm pissed off.
I haven’t heard Favs’s voice sound like that in a long time.
Haven’t heard Lovett get like that in a minute either. He was dead serious.
I don’t understand how the guy I just watched at the Raleigh rally today is the same guy from last night. Where was this all energy last night?! He’s up there on attack, rattling off accomplishments like it’s October 2020. The disparity is wild.
No one is glaring at you while you have 2 minutes to make a point without a teleprompter before the other guy gets to lie for a minute with no fact checking. Today was a friendly crowd
Watching Raleigh now. MAN, this guy looks great! Excited to vote for him! Like a different person...
He's an old man, later in the day his mind isn't firing on all cylinders. It's not a good sign for his long term cognitive ability
“Calling for the debate about whether Biden should drop out” is not the debate we should be having. That’s a weasel phrase. The debate we should be having is who is going to replace him. The quicker the better. The train is headed for the cliff. Can the DNC find it in themselves to pull the emergency brake.
Agreed. It’s time.
Part of me wonders if it isn't the best idea to just rip the band-aid off now, and for him to announce that he's done this weekend. Gives the party a bit of time to breathe and regroup before the stretch run.
Can we please have an open convention, and can it please lead to Pete Buttigieg or someone of similar ability being nominated. I will literally vote for a can of Goya beans over Trump, but this was very damaging to Biden’s thin margins.
A Democratic Party open convention, with anti war protesters wreaking havoc, held in Chicago? Wait I’ve seen this one before!
Time is in fact a flat circle Marty.
Agreed completely! People act like Biden is the only option, but his chances of winning are less than a coin toss. There is virtually nothing to lose by trying someone else, but a lot that could be gained.
I know. People keep saying "Oh, don't change the horses midstream. He's the incumbent!" but like, is it doing us any good!? He's losing, he's been losing, and now he's gonna be losing by more. I don't think there's any advantage he's giving us right now that isn't outweighed by the liabilities.
You’re hitting on something called the Sunk Cost Fallacy- the behavior to not change course because you’ve gone too far. It’s not true, there’s always an oppurtunity to change your (our) behavior, our thinking.
The horse has a broken leg
Agreed but then Kamala will also have to accept the reality that no one likes her and step aside willingly and without protest.
That… seems unlikely. This was her whole gamble basically, stepping in. I think everyone assumed it would be after 1 term. Joe got the Isildur Syndrome and couldn’t let the power go when he got to the precipice
why do people keep throwing out Petes name? this country couldnt handle a black man or a woman being president but you think theyll vote for a gay man? Also, Petes been MIA, he doesnt even have favorable views from the Dem party. They need to put someone up who has deep connections and charisma that can rally people in the next 5 months.
Pinto beans or black beans on that Goya can???
This comment is red bean erasure.
The guys keep praising Biden’s staff and advisors as being the best of the best. And they might indeed be very good at governing. But the people around Biden are at fault here. It is clear that none of them have been telling Biden the truth about his capacity. Where is Jill Biden? If she loves her husband, which I believe she does, how can she let him go out there like that? Is there anyone holding up a mirror to Biden?
It’s like beanie feldstein in funny girl
It was the same thing with Feinstein’s staff. They’re either blinded by affection for their boss, or more likely, being selfish in their unwillingness to give up power.
I think Feinstein and Ginsburg are to glaring examples on the left of selfishly holding on to power for too long. But this is not a left-only issue. Grassley is fucking 90! McConnell is makes Biden look like a spring chicken. We live in a boomer gerontocracy, and it has to stop! The median age of the Senate is over 65. Meaning, the median senator graduated from college in 1980 - a completely different world than today.
I was thinking the same thing lol. I’m sure they’re technically proficient and lovely people, but Joe Biden needs to fire everyone in this godawful campaign. Whoever his debate preppers were failed him.
And then what? Replace them with another set of advisors that are incentivized to withhold the hard truth from him? A different set of advisors are not going to make Biden younger, quicker, and energetic. Biden needs those who love him to hold up a mirror and deliver the hard truth, and hopefully Biden can make a plan to drop out of the race.
Yeah what the fuck Jill. They're all enablers. It's like your grandma who still has her driver's license at 80. You don't let her keep driving! You TAKE AWAY THOSE CAR KEYS.
My prediction: Merchan sentences trump to prison Trump appeals Biden holds nomination and does a never before seen tactic explaining the truth, "in June 2025 I plan to resign and turn over the administration to VP" Trump Appeal fails and he is in prison for like a week Trump's prison time breaks him even further. Trump accepts Jesus into his heart from a prayer in the penitentiary and God tells him to become a pastor. The new mega church becomes a billion dollar enterprise with the trump family preaching all over the world because property for churches is untaxed. It's not a church it's a fundraising real estate business. Meanwhile Now president Harris continues to prosecute citizen pastor trump. Rev. Donny 45 preaches against the persecution of Christian's from the leftist satanic worshipers. Rev. Felon DJT accumulates 100 convictions and is in process of appealing most of them. One of them puts him in prison in 2026. Trump has a televangelist sermon from his one phone call from prison and gets special religious exemption to "preach" every Sunday.
If this election is as important as Biden says it is, then he needs to drop out ASAP. And if he can't see how badly he fucked up, then he truly has lost it.
I will forever respect president Biden for what he has done after being handed over such cluster fack from Trump. He made me less worried to live in this country. He truly love this country and has the decency and empathy you want from a president. He is surrounded by competent people who are doing a good job. He pledged to invest in womens health research when reelected, which is desperately needed. That being said, Biden was always a « lets restore normalcy » president. So why at 81yo does he run again? Sure, people can bring up « well the incumbent has to run again because …. » BECAUSE WHAT? Times change. Him being a unapologetic 1 term president mentoring brillant politicians to run would have been such a graceful exit. Let grandpop enjoy a deserved break. It isn’t too late we are in June. Again, lets live in reality. We could have Kamala, Newsom and Mayor Pete give it a real chance and get us ALL excited to beat the shit of these nazi sympathizers.
“There’s a lot of messy, complicated, confusing unknowns ahead of us. But, the first step is- let’s have the debate of which path is riskiest. Is the riskiest path sticking with Joe Biden? Or is the riskiest path saying “We want someone else”. And anybody who says that that is not a tough call right now, is full of fucking shit”
What we saw last night was an exhausted, confused, elderly man, who struggled to string together a single coherent sentence. I think Biden is good person, but he should not be president again. He said he was going to be a bridge to the next generation - what happened to that? If the democrats nominate Biden, we will get 4 more years of Trump. Now is the time to fucking panic. I would vote for a ham sandwich for president over Trump, but the 10k swing voters we are fighting for in Wisconsin, Georgia, and Nevada... I doubt it.
What happened? The corporations who own the overwhelming majority of our political process are terrified of the younger Dems. See, the younger folks are motivated to fix things that aren’t working for Americans, and the rich can’t have that.
The quickness and unanimity of the democratic response makes me feel like ppl were waiting for the debate as an excuse to say what they’ve all known and seen for many months. It was foolish, reckless, and selfish for Biden to run again
That was way way worse than I expected and I have had A LOT of doubts about biden.
I'm out. I've been a Biden apologist for years now. But this has to stop. Last night's performance was unacceptable. Biden has good days and bad days. That's great for an 81-year-old man. But it's not acceptable for a candidate for the president of the United States, and it's not acceptable for a Commander-in-chief. It is not too late for all of us to call on Biden to withdraw. If he won’t withdraw, it’s not too late that we insist on a contested brokered convention. The second and third-day news stories must be about how voters on social media are speaking with a single voice on this. President Biden. Thank you for your service. It is time to withdraw.
I saw some comments last night of people saying things like "my husband and I thought Biden did great. It's just the media that is saying he did bad, not normal people" and I guess I'm glad to know my instincts aren't so out of whack that those people were correct.
The debate and the subsequent discussion has made me think of the parallel between Joe Biden's and George Washington's situations. I think this comparison is the best pitch we could make to Biden to get him to consider stepping down. Is there any better argument we could offer his advisors? I think the most effective pitch to Biden is to paint his choice as reflecting George Washington's choice. If he steps aside, he is a hero and a historically great president that preserves our democracy, just like George Washington was a hero for creating the tradition of the succession in the first place. His retirement and the probable landslide for any other generic dem would cement his legacy as a hero in American history. His retirement effectively beats Trump twice. His legislative and economic record should go down in history as top 10, maybe top 5 of all time. But if he holds on too long and fumbles the election he will tarnish his legacy. Therefore, we need to convince him to allow Democrats to pick a new nominee at the convention. Unfortunately as with the example of RBG, and most everyone knows from personal examples, people of advanced age are rarely able to take the decision to step aside because of age concerns. And no one can force Biden not to run. If he can see the decision in a way that's good for his ego, if he can put his legacy next to George Washington's, I think he may retire.
This is exactly it. If he steps down for the country he is the man who defeated Trump and brought us through the Covid crisis. Then let new leadership take over. If he tries to run for reelection he’s the man who lost to Donald Trump
I posted this 10 months ago: "Biden has done a good job as president. He's passed bills addressing most of the important issues of our time with a congress that was basically 50/50. The IRA does much to address climate and healthcare. The infrastructure bill really is a the biggest investment in infrastructure in decades and he got it done when other presidents have repeatedly talked about it. The PACT act is a big deal for veterans. The CHIPs act is a big deal for national security, supply chains, and American manufacturing. The Safer Communities Act isn't nearly enough but it is the first gun reform in decades. Biden works, he's substantive, he's experienced, he's not prone to emotional outbursts, he can work across the isle, he's empathic and thoughtful. He has a lot of great qualities. Biden is also old. He's never been a great speaker. He has a tendency to ramble on. He misspeaks and he has a tendency to gaffe. This means that he isn't the best messenger for most of the success of his administration mentioned above. There is also a conservative media ecosystem that is a propaganda machine that uses his age and his missteps to drive a narrative of "dementia" or that he "doesn't know what room he's in." These narratives are effective when directed at republican voters in that echo chamber and they're effective in tiktoks to voters who aren't particularly engaged. However if you watch Biden at length in a speech or town hall you see that he's fine. He's old but hes not about to drool on himself or shit himself on stage or something. The bar is set so low that he can sometimes easily step over it. All that to say that I believe Biden deserves a second term. He will do a good job in a second term if he gets the chance. But I also believe that the right wing in America today, and specifically Donald Trump are incredibly dangerous, so electability is the most important thing. I see Bidens polling and I see a general mood in the country for something new. Although it obviously wont happen, my preference would be for Biden to willingly step aside. The selflessness wouldn't go unnoticed and Democrats currently have a very deep bench. We would get a chance to see Josh Shapiro, JB Pritzker, Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar, Gretchen Whitmer, Chris Murphy, Cory Booker, Gavin Newsome, Jared Polis, Wes Moore, Raphael Warnock, etc." [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/16583hq/comment/jyjm2kp/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/16583hq/comment/jyjm2kp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) I think it holds up pretty well today. Joe is great, but in an election like this, where we can't afford to lose, we need a JFK, Bill Clinton, Obama level messenger, and that's just not Joe.
In 2020, the agreement with all of us, was that he would be a one-term president. He would beat Trump, right the ship and head out because everyone was concerned about his age even then. Him going for reelection was not part of the deal. And now he has unfortunately proven the age concerns to be true on full display for the entire world to see. Gavin Newsom’s phone has probably been ringing nonstop since 6:15pm (pacific time for you east coasters) last night. Same with Pete Buttigieg.
There was no agreement. There was one mention in a Politico article from unsourced dems, but never an official statement from Biden or his team.
We’ve been hearing so much about the double haters. Turn them into “single hater, meh they’re fine I guessers” and we’ve got a race.
Trump probably won’t accept another debate request given how lopsided this one is being taken, but the Biden camp should be doing everything they can to get back on the stage. They need counter evidence to that performance. I’ve been around a lot of 80 year olds when they hit the slide, and it’s precipitously fast
The damage is done. Even if he gives great speeches every day from now until November 4, the clips from this debate is all any swing voter is going to see or remember. He needs to quit the race now. Please call your representatives, assuming you have Democratic ones, and tell them to join the pressure campaign.
Since everyone is starting to throw around their bad takes about why this is Stacy Abrams' moment or how Andy Beshear is going to save us, let me offer a bad take of my own. The problem with anointing a replacement for Biden is there are too many ambitious democrats who might not go along with. \*cough\* Kamala. And how to we avoid antagonizing certain demographics like black women by passing Kamala over? My suggestion? Don't just announce a nominee and ticket. **Announce a cabinet.** UK parties always have their shadow cabinet that communicates to voters who their ministers would be if they took power, Democrats should do that when we're out of power. It's a great way to build and assess the power of our bench. These aren't my picks, but let's just use this as an example. President: Newsom VP: Abrams Sec. of State: Harris UN Ambassador: Buttegieg Attorney General: Beshear Interior: Haaland You get the idea. Everyone who wants to run for president in the next few terms gets some high level experience and time in the sun. Everyone is in the same boat and rowing in the same direction. No one feels left out and because everyone is on stage smiling and waving together, which group of voters is going to feel alienated. A Nominee, VP, and prospective cabinet standing on stage at the convention COMPLETELY changes the dynamic of this election and CRUSHES the Republicans.
To everyone who is now in the "Biden should step aside camp", fine. I, like the Pod guys, no longer think it is absurd to have this discussion. But if that is what you want you need to come to terms that it would be Harris. If you think Harris is a better candidate, great, make that case. If you think Biden's risk of losing is less than Harris', fine, make that case. But there is no "the president has already won the primary but is stepping down and the party insiders that serve as delegates ignore the sitting VP in favor of some governor" option. It's Biden or it's Harris. edit: Another reason, in addition the many below, it would 10000% absolutely be Harris is that the Biden-Harris ticket has about 220 million dollars in the bank that can only be used by...Joe Biden or Kamala Harris! The party insiders and delegates who would vote in a contested convention are not gonna give up 220 million dollars and voluntarily have to redo a full year of fundraising in order to choose Whitmer or Newsom instead (tbh this fundraising aspect is why you might not even see Harris get challenged for the nomination in this scenario). Biden can either stay in the race or he can step aside. If he steps aside, Harris will be the nominee.
Agreed. In fact they should just convince him to resign now. Let Kamala step in as president so that she has incumbency going into the campaign.
I think the bottom line is incumbancy in this case isn't an advantage and in the current match up good money has Trump winning. I'll take any shake up/drama after last night.
Why would it necessarily be Harris? I think she’d make a great President, and I wanted her to win the primary in 202. But I acknowledge that she’s unpopular and therefore would be the wrong choice. Newsom, Whitmer, and Buttigieg would make great picks.
Your post has no business being so true.
there's absolutely no way harris would win against trump
Being honest, I really like the crooked crew, I am way more progressive and have so many problems with liberals, but through crooked we have seen a great level of insight from people working at the White House really pushing a democratic political agenda and I still love this and continue to enjoy the shows and their mission, even at the times I personally do not agree with their ideas or methods. But openly saying that it is imperitive to have the debate now before the convention about whether or not Biden should be the nominee (agree completely) because his performance last night was enough to scare them when progressives and young people have been saying this for a year, and more realistically since 2020 when they showed up for Biden in solidarity against Trump does aggrivate me. This idea only gets harder and messier the closer to the election but only now do liberals seem to want to have that conversation after beating down anyone on the left that didn't want to see Biden for very reasonable concerns prior
Getting rid of a candidate over hypothetical concerns rather than real concerns seems very different. Before the debate I saw a stable old man. Now I just see an old man. That’s not going to win against Trump.
I think the problem is the writing was on the wall already. It may have been hypothetical in that Biden was and honestly still seems sharp for his age, but 80 is 80 and we've already had fallout from RGB, Feinstien, and McConnel during this presidency. Young people do not want to see people so old they can't even have a coherent or sensible hearing on tech and the like, much less being seated in the highest office. The age was a concern for a large number of voters in 2020 but there was energy and motivation to take the step out of necessity and people showed up. Even the Biden campaign seemed clued into that with the illusions to Biden being a 1 term or "transitional" president even though he obviously didn't say that directly. I won't hold that idea against him as a broken promise, but I know people in this campaign were aware of these concerns because they were already present the last time, it was always a shaky bet on that alone, voters are fickle and "young" voters including middle aged millennials are tired of only being offered the choice to vote against Trump, and not for something.
The question of whether or not Biden should drop out isn't as simple as you make it sound. I've always agreed with you; I wish that Biden would have deliberately acted as a bridge to the next generation. But Biden's done a great job as President, and he's the only person who's beaten Donald Trump. In addition, there's not a clear successor who can unite the party; an open primary would have been messy and split the donors. In retrospect, it was obviously a hell of a gamble for Biden to stay in, but it would also have been a gamble for Biden to drop out.
I agree with you. I also worry about the legal issues. If Dems replace the ticket, can they get on the ballot in every state at this point? If a new candidate beats Trump, and let's say it's a super narrow win, would it withstand a legal challenge that might end up decided by Sam Alito and the like? We aren't up against a party that operates in good faith, or would be above pulling every lever imaginable to nullify an outcome they don't like. Hell, Ohio Republicans have been trying to keep Biden off the ballot there on a technical issue.
The boys have been hinting discomfort with Biden for a while, but they're in a tough spot. The conversation has the potential to be very damaging. I think last night the gloves came off. No conversation can do as much damage as Biden did to himself.
I agree that the boys are tuned enough that they were a bit worried, but its hard to see people so tuned in and smart with politics feel that you can't hit the alert until the last possible minute. My personal politics aside Biden has largely still been the best president of my lifetime and I can say that while acknowledging my own problems with either him or the larger political leanings of the office/America, but right or wrong age alone was always a concern. I think Joe has good intentions but there's also something about the type of person that has the drive and will to make it to the office of president that should make everyone hold them to a standard. End of the day, part of the reason Joe is running again is ego, he fought to be president, he did a good job, why should he have to step aside. I can relate to that on a personal level, but the rest of us should be there holding him to account long before we got to this point.
Biden has been fantastic as president and nobody should argue that this is a super easy call to make from his perspective. Had he stepped down in 2023, the party might have eaten itself alive over immigration and gaza in the primary and there would be a wounded nominee right now and people might be talking about Biden stepping in. Whatever path we take, if we lose people will say we should've done the other thing.
I thought it was very telling (and worrying) that they mentioned Biden was bad at the fundraiser with Obama a couple weeks ago.
I can see why given the context of the travel schedule they didn't want to fan the flames since there was a reasonable enough excuse, but it coming up now as a sign of the problem retroactively hurts a bit. I think these guys are really smart and experienced in politics, but anyone can get in their own way and one set of fears causing one course of action being replaced by another set of fears moving in the other direction scares me. If there actually is any movement from Biden or the DNC to move things now it could work out, but this is just about the worst possible time to face it.
Came here looking for this comment, I’m so salty about it. People freaking out all of a sudden when we’ve BEEN telling you for literal years and were met with complete disrespect and ridicule.
The GOP falls in line because they have cultivated a base that votes downline and even ignores or is willfully or otherwise ignorant of policies that will be inacted. If the DNC wants to be the big tent for liberals, progressives, leftist, and anyone else center and left they have to accept that there won't be agreement and that some concerns are worth compromising on. Even before Gaza young people and progressives were more geared for change, voting blue down ticket is a reasonable first step in battling the aggressive policies of the GOP and one I will continue to do, but pushing your messaging to blue no matter who and democracy is at stake is a page to similar to the GOPs playbook and will alienate people even before we get to a scenario as bad as this. The boys are very smart and experienced politically so I guess it's just sad to see them drag their feet until this point, even if they paid lip service to some of these concerns lightly in the past.
#HereHere
It depends on what you've been telling people. I've heard a lot of people, including myself, say "I have a lot of concerns about his age, and it's possible that he's less sharp than he was under Obama. That said, he's clearly capable of doing the job. I'm worried about his ability to do the job for 4 years, but he's still a capable candidate and he's the only person who's won against Trump." I've never been disrespected for expressing that sentiment. What \*used to be\* ridiculous is saying, "He's not capable of doing the job." Based on various appearances - Seth Meyers, SOTU, Howard Stern - it was clear that he was still capable of doing the job. The debate was really the first public appearance where it was clear how much he's ailing.
This is why we have primary elections. Fuck.
Trump is an unconventional candidate to say the least - he's unpopular, tried to overturn an election, impeached twice, convicted rapist and felon, misogynist, handled the pandemic horribly, and becomes incoherent after a while on stage. His lunatic base is voting for him and republicans are voting for the non-democrat. It sounds crazy to replace Biden now, but it's not that far fetched. The general population is sick of both these candidates. If another candidate came in with great charisma and an impeccably clean background, there very well could be enough momentum to bring the swing voters to the poll. Emotions need to be taken out and the stats people need to figure out which path is better after the debate.