I feel like everyone's very excited about Clara Bow, but nothing makes me feel more fear about the outcome of this album than Clara Bow. I am concerned that she knew we'd look into her heritage, find Catherine Gaylor, and we'd eat it up and the song is going to be a repudiation of 'gaylorism,' regardless of if she's a queer person or not. Clara Bow has the potential to be a direct acknowledgement of us, and it doesn't bode well after the ambiguous at best prologue.
I'm scared, pals.
On the William Bow/Gaylor connection, I’m not saying that’s not odd or interesting, but to me it wreaks of a major coincidence. When you’re scrambling trying to look for gay connections, a bunch of stuff is bound to come up. It doesn’t mean it was all planned. The April 19th connections could go either way too. Like, oh, this gay poet died on that day, but that’s also when Taylor and her friends unfollowed Joe. It’s not impossible that Taylor has this secret sapphic intellectual side, but she’s also hella petty. And it’s unfortunately this petty/put people on blast side of her that she wants to showcase 99% of the time.
I don't know...."William Bowery" isn't a "gay connection". That feels too big to be a coincidence, esp since William Bowery existed way before the tracks were named (probably).
It's still William Bow as opposed to Bowery (unless I missed something) and Bowery seems to be referring to the Bowery hotel where Taylor has been seen with several people. Look, I used to be big into conspiracy theories and I ate up these types of connections. But the thing is, if you look deeply enough into something, you can connect just about anything to anything. It's possible she anticipated Gaylors in specific doing this homework but I personally kind of doubt it.
[This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/GaylorSwift/comments/1am794j/clara_bows_genealogy_runnin_wild_and_ella_mowery/) is what sold me on "Bowery" being related to this
"I can't imagine that after everything she said years ago about liking her relationship to be private, that she'd go back on it completely and write a diss album about him." I think we are falling for the same trap that hetlors fall for and we are forgetting that she can lie, she can manipulate the narrative for her sake and for the sake of the story. if she says she likes her relationships to be private and then writes song after song about her relationships, she can always fall back on the argument that it's all a fictional story (i.e. folklore) so two things can be true - she can want to keep her relationships private, but she can also write songs about them.
Honestly I don’t even want to listen to this album, she’s being a billionaire and not owning up to her carbon emissions contribution and threatening legal action on that student is so gross. I do want to listen to it, but don’t want to support it. I don’t even care anymore, I’m having Taylor swift fatigue
It's too bad this is getting downvoted, this is a super valid feeling atm. I'm feeling a similar disappointment and it's making the album anticipation less fun, which I'm sad about
This is such a valid take, in my opinion. I'm excited about the album myself, but I also can't (and don't want to) keep up with all the merch drops and secret meanings and stuff. I'm also real sour about her billionaire status and carbon emissions and I wish there was more room for nuanced criticism of her behaviors in a lot of online spaces.
I do think that Toe was real and that there might be a few songs about their breakup or rough times in their relationship. However, I hope and think it’s not going to be entirely about him. My best guess is that it’s going to be layered and goes into the direction of Dear Reader.
The general public and especially Swifties will make every little single detail and lyric about him, no matter it if makes sense or not. So I’m really excited for our lyrical analysis here!!
I think we need to expect that General Swifities / the public are going to make it about Joe (and probably ratty and Travis) no matter what - but I think the album is going to be PACKED with double meanings.
As OP said, the album literally launched with a “red herring” code. She’s telling us this album is gunna be packed with codes and clues and layered meanings - just like poetry. I think it’s really going to be our time to shine because no one is better at critical thinking and analysis than Gaylors!
I’m already pumped about stuff like: Manuscript = Man U Script (i.e scripting a narrative about a man/beard).
So right now I’m like, bring on the obvious Joe references please! I’m SO ready.
the fact that she even used the word red herring (well, scrambled lol) is so exciting and interesting to me. gaylors have been talking about her use of red herrings for yearssss and we even use the term het herring often. while in the wider swiftie fandom, i rarely see them acknowledge or accept her red herrings/bait and switches/double+ meanings/the vast majority of her easter eggs and references etc etc. maybe she's even trying to influence swifties to look into the phrase red herring if they don't already know it, or to view more of her behaviors through that lens. she's definitely referring to more than just her rep/ts11 announcement bait and switch.
>i rarely see them acknowledge or accept her red herrings/bait and switches/double+ meanings/the vast majority of her easter eggs and references etc etc.
They can never sink below the surface of anything. Nor do they have any media literacy at all. Their precious mother would never lie to them!!!
we know better by now that Taylor’s albums are never just about one thing or about one person. they are about all of the people, places, things and institutions that create her life experience. the evolution of her music and songwriting continues to tell us how she integrates every part of her human experience — the good and bad — into the stories she tells through her songs.
in short, it’s never just about one thing. her gift is somehow being so clear to us through nuance. you have to have a very deep understanding of yourself to be able to do that at the magnitude and scale that she does.
I think this is Taylor MO now. She calls reputation, an album in which she talks about how in love she is with the muse a ‘gothic’ album. Lover is seen as the lovey-dovey album when in fact she is anxious in most of it. She, as we say it my country shows her right hand but slaps with the left.
There’s no way this new album is all about Joe. The Easter eggs and the clocks and the mastermind aura that’s been built…. The planning and scheming?! Much more than about a breakup for sure
I want this to be the case, but I just don't know. :/ I'm pretty sure I'm a Toe truther, and I know that's not really popular here. But I think it's possible she claimed to want a private relationship because that was, and still is, Joe's vibe.
She tried it the other way plenty of times before and got shredded by the media. Why not swing the pendulum in the complete opposite direction? Maybe it seemed fine at the time, but it clearly backfired on some level, whatever their situation was.
Now, we have songs like Bejeweled and YLM. An album title that may or may not be a dig at Joe and his friend group. We have the Betty speech with the same bullet points week after week about how she lived and wrote alone during the pandemic. Jack confirming YLM was written pre-Midnights. Friends unfollowing Joe on 4/19. Taylor walking back some of the timing details of the new album to suggest it spills into her time on tour. And, maybe the biggest indicator of all, a public relationship that is keeping her in the spotlight nonstop.
It seems like everything points to her, at some point, feeling trapped and miserable and wanting to "shimmer" again. And that's valid! People are allowed to change.
Even the Clara/Bowery connection still has ties to Mr. Lyrics Too? Jesus himself.
I would LOVE for all of this to be completely meaningless, lol. But girlie has been working hard to spin up this narrative. Even if they were essentially only business partners, something went down and now it's open Toe season.
I did a deep dive post in the neutral sub on her relationship with Joe because I was so tired of Swifties using the narrative that he literally hid her in the tower like Rapunzel.
Before the post I didn’t know where I stood with Joe/Taylor but after piecing it all together they seemed like a genuine low key couple. He went to all of her important events unless he was working. She went to his events too. She boasted about him every chance she had, she was always saying he was a wonderful boyfriend and she reiterated again and again that she chose to be private, not him.
Now we see her changing the narrative, or putting out a revision of what it was really like. It’s confusing at best!
It’s not necessarily that she’s putting out a revision of what it was like imo, they met pretty much right as the media turned on her, and I think being private probably worked exceptionally well for her. But I don’t think that’s what she prefers naturally, I think she loves the limelight and it’s very possible she started to seek that more as their relationship progressed, Joe wasn’t on board and she came to resent his desire for privacy. Relationships are complex af, and they change a lot.
i remember reading your deep dive a few days ago! i really enjoyed it. i agree joe seems very low key, and i do like a lot of the media he’s been in. i think so many listeners of her music are not as informed of her personal relationships (god i wish lmao) that it makes spinning the narrative easier for her. i’ve had relationships end and me realize that they weren’t that healthy — not saying that’s what’s happening here, but that’s what this switch reminds me of. confusing!
Yes and it kept being suggested to me but I had to mute it because it’s not neutral they all post hateful Taylor shit but act like they are being constructive but it’s just a way to talk shit about her but say oh no we are neutral
I will say though, I haven't seen any outright misogyny on there. Most of the criticism I have seen is valid and there is room for nuance. I think it's okay for people, even fans, to want a safe place to vent about things they are frustrated about.
The entire internet already trashes her though so there are plenty of spaces to do so already. Saying it’s neutral is just not true. I don’t think she’s the second coming of Christ but if I have to see more people bash her for bringing her friend and collaborator Lana on stage and not hugging Celine Dion .. I just can’t.
I really appreciate the sub and was recommended it by a fellow Gaylor. It seems like we have been the only subset that has approached her critically before the sub.
It is NOT a gaylor friendly sub, but they allow discourse about it when news comes out, like the CNN articles etc. It’s not all and out ban worthy to discuss gaylor but it’s not really “allowed” either.
Sometimes people will admit to being a Gaylor and not be downvoted into oblivion, and the mods are balanced and even with not allowing people to shit talk them either.
It can get it’s share of parasocial fans, and sometimes the swifties bombard it, but it’s quickly become my other favorite TS sub. The discourse is smart most of the time and you will not get downvoted or harassed for having other opinions of Taylor besides she’s amazing like on main.
Yes thank you for the reminder that outright gaylor discourse is not technically allowed! However, I've outed myself there and had some pretty okay discussions about it, so I consider it "safe" at least, which is not something I can say for very many TS spaces online.
Oooh there’s a post up now about Taylor queerbaiting/using Rainbow Capitalism that also touches on her quote “Pride makes me me!” And the comments I’ve read so far are excellent!
Your post is great and the discourse was needed. 😍
No way Bejeweled is about Joe, I think it's a pretty clear swipe at Calvin (as a beard though: the whole "I don't remember" part when asked if she has a boyfriend lol).
Whether or not Toe was real I do think it's very clear they ended on a bad note, I do not think she was expecting it to end before tour was over. Hell, she had just put their signs together on a "Mastermind" easter egg in the Lavender Haze video. I think he blindsided her when he decided to go public with the breakup (whether they had really broken up romantically or he wanted out of the contract early).
That's a good point! I don't know anything about Calvin tbh. I didn't know there was a narrative about him holding her back while she made him her "world". Just the big ol' beard line lol.
The references to being locked away and ignored just said Joe to me. Not to mention the shoes line. 🤭 hehe.
Right. She seems to at least be working hard to undo the whole narrative around Toe/him being William Bowery. I've always said, if Toe was real, Joe was kind of a dick. There's a difference between wanting privacy and acting like your partner's work is uninteresting and unworthy of attention, and that you don't care about a grammy. Anyways. We don't know what went down, or what the album will be, but Joe getting a little bit of shit in her discography is not necessarily totally immature or petty.
This is how I feel about Joe. I never liked him because I found his seeming disinterest in her work/refusal to talk about her very off-putting. But what fascinates me now is the general consensus in this sub that he didn't do anything wrong and doesn't deserve this. We literally don't know what happened but the most accepted narrative in here is that she's being petty and he did nothing wrong. What if he did do things wrong? Why isn't that even considered? And in a larger context: why isn't she being given even a sliver of the benefit of the doubt by a lot of people in this sub?
I don't think the consensus is that he *didn't* do anything wrong, but rather that presuming he did before knowing anything (like a lot of hetlors have on twitter) is bad. What doubt are we to give her when she hasn't even said anything yet? We'll find out what she has to say about it on April 19th, and can revisit then.
I definitely didn't mean to imply he could do no wrong, but from what we HAVE seen, he doesn't deserve the John Mayer treatment. I just personally don't think she CARES enough to write an entire album about him.
The irony is that I don't think she really dated John Mayer, but let's say it was real, it was, at most, 6 months. She was apparently with Joe for 6 years, and we're supposed to find it petty that she's going to have maybe half a record about it? (Not directed at you OP, just a lot of the discourse of the past few days)
I agree with you on that and your take on You're Losing Me that's up thread a bit. I don't think this album will be 100% about Joe but I'm leaving room for the idea that if there's a negative song about Joe he may have done something to deserve it.
I actually think they were a real relationship too (I'm into the idea of a bi/pan Taylor) - I think everyone acting like YLM was so brutal and awful has never been in an *adult* relationship that ended. It's very much just about falling out of love and being on different pages about the future of the relationship.
I'm ready to eat my words, I just don't think she'd make the whole album about him. I think she wants to move on more than that.
>I think everyone acting like YLM was so brutal and awful has never been in an
>
>adult
>
> relationship that ended. It's very much just about falling out of love and being on different pages about the future of the relationship.
THIS. THANK YOU.
Sometimes shit just doesn't work out, and yes it HURTS like a motherfucker, but it also doesn't make either person a villain.
Maybe he was a giant abusive d-bag (I guess we're gonna find out, LOL), but maybe it just ... wasn't right in the end, no matter how much she wanted it to be. Honestly, in my experience, that's MORE sad than when someone ends up being a dick.
YES EXACTLY. If they are an asshole, in my experience, it's so much easier to move on because you know you deserve better. If it just doesn't work out because you're on different pages, it hurts so much because neither one of you did anything wrong, so there's nowhere easy to put the blame.
And if no one's doing anything actively wrong, you might keep trying and trying — for, I don't know, six whole years even — because surely you can make it right? And he's killing you and he doesn't even know it.
No one teaches you what to do
When a good man hurts you
And you know you hurt him too
Idk if my post is the one u/sadalienrobot is talking about but I did a post speculating that YLM is directed at hetlors - [https://www.reddit.com/r/GaylorSwift/comments/188w5vw/youre\_losing\_me\_lyric\_analysis/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GaylorSwift/comments/188w5vw/youre_losing_me_lyric_analysis/)
Even if it's not about Joe, she needs to be explicit to her fans that it's not about Joe because he's just catching strays left and right. The fan base/media are practically frothing at the mouth for her to drag him
I literally saw a tweet this morning from Crumbl cookies shading him. It has gotten out of control when brands are bullying this man. [Crumbl Cookies on X: "all I’m saying is this probably wouldn’t be happening to him if he was cookie shop guy instead of yogurt shop guy." / X (twitter.com)](https://twitter.com/CrumblCookies/status/1755694583902793786)
At *best*, she might give him the John Mayer treatment before SNTV ("I’m not putting this album out so you can go on the internet and defend me against someone you think I wrote a song about").
I hope she does, but I doubt she will. She's been really tight-lipped about specific muses. I'm *kinda* optimistic because of the "muses acquired like bruises" line
omg i bet clara bow will be… at the end of karma she sits down at the piano with a man, so that makes it seem like TS11 was worked on with someone else.
It really just feels like such a slap in the face for her to go on about “moving on” and being past drama (long story short, it’s time to go, closure, KARMA, there’s probs more examples that I can’t articulate rn) and then just be like “lol lemme release an entire diss album that will make my enormous fan base go rabid on Twitter against you” .. like that just doesn’t make sense for her to do in my mind? Especially after her whole speech before she performed dear John a while back about not spreading hate? I’m probably thinking way too much about this but I’m really hoping people don’t burn joe at the stake for this album:/ people break up (or contracts end lol), it’s not the end of the world ig
Edited to fix spelling mistakes smh my head
I mean she wrote an entire song supposedly being about forgetting Kanye existed and then years later named dropped him in her TOTY article. I think as much as she says she dgaf she holds onto grudges and is super petty
I think it’ll be a more meta type of album examining her relationship to fame and how she operates as a celebrity. Just based off the very small amount of lyrics we saw in her announcement.
I would love this but I am so cautious after midnights, which I didn’t connect with at all. It seems like she will go for the low hanging fruit- songs revealing the downfall of her relationship which people will eat tf up.
That's so interesting because I LOVED Midnights. Maroon and Would've, Could've, Should've are in my top 10 of her whole discography! Anti-Hero, YOYOK, Mastermind, and YLM are also up there for me.
I think there was already quite a lot of that in Midnights; Gaylors generally picked up on some of it, Hetlors on rather less. I would certainly be interested in seeing more from her.
Yes, agree. I’m really hoping these songs go the way of Dear Reader, which felt extremely honest and blunt for Taylor. She just wrapped it up in pretty packaging and Hetlors didn’t realize what she was saying.
Lavender Haze - the contrast between the public expectations of her for a relationship and what she actually is. The haze of being not quite out, but not fully closeted.
Anti-Hero - about herself and her persona
YOYOK - herself and her rise to fame
Midnight Rain - maybe some rel stuff, but also about her desire for fame and autonomy
Vigilante Shit - herself. Business relationships and betrayals more than romantic ones.
Bejeweled - there was some relationship shade, but it also feels very much like psyching herself up for coming back to pop post folkmore, and also potentially harking back to rep post snakegate.
Karma - imo written at least in part as a nod to the karma album theory. But also about her, not rels.
Mastermind - ostensibly about her relationship, but there's so much there about masking and unmasking and her social engineering and control of her fandom in there.
High Infidelity - could be about a relationship? But there's strong takes for it being about her relationship with the truth and with her fans as a result.
Would've Could've Should've - I firmly believe this is Taylor's relationship with her own fame hunger, though it references some beards/muses/bad decisions.
Dear Reader, obviously, is the most fourth wall breaking.
Relationship ones are Maroon, Snow on the Beach, Question, Labyrinth, Sweet Nothing (now indicated to be about Paul), The Great War (probably? But I'm honestly not 100% sure), and Paris (though that still has the matter of her closeting hanging over her), and Glitch. Then BTTWS sits in it's own area, really, of ambiguity whether it's for the death of another or some part of herself that she lost.
love your interpretation of Bejeweled! *I can still make the whole room shimmer* definitely reads as return to pop stardom after the more melancholic, folk FolkMore
The Great War always felt like a song to her brother, about surviving their parent’s divorce… I do t have any specific reasoning behind it, just what I heard the first time and it stuck.
I think BTTWS is about herself, whether it’s about her failed coming out, or the real part of herself she’ll never get to let out…which gives me RWYLM vibes. But that’s just my opinion 😄
BTTWS for me is about miscarriage. Saw someone mention that the beginning of the song sounds like an ultrasound when they are trying to find a heartbeat. I cannot perceive the song differently now.
I kindof got relationship vibes from the Great War, the speculation that someone close to her had something to do with the masters heist and how they got through it. “Somewhere in the haze got a sense I’d been betrayed” “soldier down in that icy ground, looked up at me with honor and truth”
There was a really good post on here recently speculating that all of evermore - and also the great war because it references ivy - is about the failed coming out + masters heist, and that the I and the you in the great war is Taylor swift^(TM) and the real/queer taylor, i.e. she's talking to herself and distinguishing between the person who wanted to come out and the person who shoved her back in the closet
- YOYOK could mean "You're On Your Own, Kid", a track from *Midnights* (2022) by Taylor Swift.
- BTTWS could mean "Bigger Than The Whole Sky", a track from *Midnights (3am Edition)* (2022) by Taylor Swift.
---
^[/u/afterandalasia](/u/afterandalasia) ^(can reply with "delete" to remove comment. |) ^[/r/songacronymbot](/r/songacronymbot) ^(for feedback.)
That's kind of what I am thinking! Like with "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" being a movie about essentially performing a marriage and all the Clara Bow stuff
Yes, exactly! This is very much just based on vibes and some conclusions we can make from song titles, but I really do expect this album to be a bit different from her typical diaristic stuff.
Hi who’s Catherine
Clara Bow's paternal grandmother
I feel like everyone's very excited about Clara Bow, but nothing makes me feel more fear about the outcome of this album than Clara Bow. I am concerned that she knew we'd look into her heritage, find Catherine Gaylor, and we'd eat it up and the song is going to be a repudiation of 'gaylorism,' regardless of if she's a queer person or not. Clara Bow has the potential to be a direct acknowledgement of us, and it doesn't bode well after the ambiguous at best prologue. I'm scared, pals.
Honestly it’s too obvious. Taylor swift has never been about being so obvious so I feel like there’s no way it is blatantly all about Joe.
I mean, the title is a hint in itself that it is, right? 😅
i mean he was a beard so no i do not think any whole album will be about him in any sense
On the William Bow/Gaylor connection, I’m not saying that’s not odd or interesting, but to me it wreaks of a major coincidence. When you’re scrambling trying to look for gay connections, a bunch of stuff is bound to come up. It doesn’t mean it was all planned. The April 19th connections could go either way too. Like, oh, this gay poet died on that day, but that’s also when Taylor and her friends unfollowed Joe. It’s not impossible that Taylor has this secret sapphic intellectual side, but she’s also hella petty. And it’s unfortunately this petty/put people on blast side of her that she wants to showcase 99% of the time.
I don't know...."William Bowery" isn't a "gay connection". That feels too big to be a coincidence, esp since William Bowery existed way before the tracks were named (probably).
It's still William Bow as opposed to Bowery (unless I missed something) and Bowery seems to be referring to the Bowery hotel where Taylor has been seen with several people. Look, I used to be big into conspiracy theories and I ate up these types of connections. But the thing is, if you look deeply enough into something, you can connect just about anything to anything. It's possible she anticipated Gaylors in specific doing this homework but I personally kind of doubt it.
[This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/GaylorSwift/comments/1am794j/clara_bows_genealogy_runnin_wild_and_ella_mowery/) is what sold me on "Bowery" being related to this
"I can't imagine that after everything she said years ago about liking her relationship to be private, that she'd go back on it completely and write a diss album about him." I think we are falling for the same trap that hetlors fall for and we are forgetting that she can lie, she can manipulate the narrative for her sake and for the sake of the story. if she says she likes her relationships to be private and then writes song after song about her relationships, she can always fall back on the argument that it's all a fictional story (i.e. folklore) so two things can be true - she can want to keep her relationships private, but she can also write songs about them.
Also an extremely valid take
Honestly I don’t even want to listen to this album, she’s being a billionaire and not owning up to her carbon emissions contribution and threatening legal action on that student is so gross. I do want to listen to it, but don’t want to support it. I don’t even care anymore, I’m having Taylor swift fatigue
It's too bad this is getting downvoted, this is a super valid feeling atm. I'm feeling a similar disappointment and it's making the album anticipation less fun, which I'm sad about
This is such a valid take, in my opinion. I'm excited about the album myself, but I also can't (and don't want to) keep up with all the merch drops and secret meanings and stuff. I'm also real sour about her billionaire status and carbon emissions and I wish there was more room for nuanced criticism of her behaviors in a lot of online spaces.
I think there is no way TPD isn’t about Joe by and large.
Here’s hoping
I do think that Toe was real and that there might be a few songs about their breakup or rough times in their relationship. However, I hope and think it’s not going to be entirely about him. My best guess is that it’s going to be layered and goes into the direction of Dear Reader. The general public and especially Swifties will make every little single detail and lyric about him, no matter it if makes sense or not. So I’m really excited for our lyrical analysis here!!
I think we need to expect that General Swifities / the public are going to make it about Joe (and probably ratty and Travis) no matter what - but I think the album is going to be PACKED with double meanings. As OP said, the album literally launched with a “red herring” code. She’s telling us this album is gunna be packed with codes and clues and layered meanings - just like poetry. I think it’s really going to be our time to shine because no one is better at critical thinking and analysis than Gaylors! I’m already pumped about stuff like: Manuscript = Man U Script (i.e scripting a narrative about a man/beard). So right now I’m like, bring on the obvious Joe references please! I’m SO ready. 
the fact that she even used the word red herring (well, scrambled lol) is so exciting and interesting to me. gaylors have been talking about her use of red herrings for yearssss and we even use the term het herring often. while in the wider swiftie fandom, i rarely see them acknowledge or accept her red herrings/bait and switches/double+ meanings/the vast majority of her easter eggs and references etc etc. maybe she's even trying to influence swifties to look into the phrase red herring if they don't already know it, or to view more of her behaviors through that lens. she's definitely referring to more than just her rep/ts11 announcement bait and switch.
>i rarely see them acknowledge or accept her red herrings/bait and switches/double+ meanings/the vast majority of her easter eggs and references etc etc. They can never sink below the surface of anything. Nor do they have any media literacy at all. Their precious mother would never lie to them!!!
I love your optimism so much, like genuinely
we know better by now that Taylor’s albums are never just about one thing or about one person. they are about all of the people, places, things and institutions that create her life experience. the evolution of her music and songwriting continues to tell us how she integrates every part of her human experience — the good and bad — into the stories she tells through her songs. in short, it’s never just about one thing. her gift is somehow being so clear to us through nuance. you have to have a very deep understanding of yourself to be able to do that at the magnitude and scale that she does.
This is well-said. I just know all the hetlors are going to tie it all to Joe...
I think this is Taylor MO now. She calls reputation, an album in which she talks about how in love she is with the muse a ‘gothic’ album. Lover is seen as the lovey-dovey album when in fact she is anxious in most of it. She, as we say it my country shows her right hand but slaps with the left.
Or how there are so many song definitely from “other POVs” on Folkmore if we would take her at her word…
There’s no way this new album is all about Joe. The Easter eggs and the clocks and the mastermind aura that’s been built…. The planning and scheming?! Much more than about a breakup for sure
I want this to be the case, but I just don't know. :/ I'm pretty sure I'm a Toe truther, and I know that's not really popular here. But I think it's possible she claimed to want a private relationship because that was, and still is, Joe's vibe. She tried it the other way plenty of times before and got shredded by the media. Why not swing the pendulum in the complete opposite direction? Maybe it seemed fine at the time, but it clearly backfired on some level, whatever their situation was. Now, we have songs like Bejeweled and YLM. An album title that may or may not be a dig at Joe and his friend group. We have the Betty speech with the same bullet points week after week about how she lived and wrote alone during the pandemic. Jack confirming YLM was written pre-Midnights. Friends unfollowing Joe on 4/19. Taylor walking back some of the timing details of the new album to suggest it spills into her time on tour. And, maybe the biggest indicator of all, a public relationship that is keeping her in the spotlight nonstop. It seems like everything points to her, at some point, feeling trapped and miserable and wanting to "shimmer" again. And that's valid! People are allowed to change. Even the Clara/Bowery connection still has ties to Mr. Lyrics Too? Jesus himself. I would LOVE for all of this to be completely meaningless, lol. But girlie has been working hard to spin up this narrative. Even if they were essentially only business partners, something went down and now it's open Toe season.
I did a deep dive post in the neutral sub on her relationship with Joe because I was so tired of Swifties using the narrative that he literally hid her in the tower like Rapunzel. Before the post I didn’t know where I stood with Joe/Taylor but after piecing it all together they seemed like a genuine low key couple. He went to all of her important events unless he was working. She went to his events too. She boasted about him every chance she had, she was always saying he was a wonderful boyfriend and she reiterated again and again that she chose to be private, not him. Now we see her changing the narrative, or putting out a revision of what it was really like. It’s confusing at best!
It’s not necessarily that she’s putting out a revision of what it was like imo, they met pretty much right as the media turned on her, and I think being private probably worked exceptionally well for her. But I don’t think that’s what she prefers naturally, I think she loves the limelight and it’s very possible she started to seek that more as their relationship progressed, Joe wasn’t on board and she came to resent his desire for privacy. Relationships are complex af, and they change a lot.
i remember reading your deep dive a few days ago! i really enjoyed it. i agree joe seems very low key, and i do like a lot of the media he’s been in. i think so many listeners of her music are not as informed of her personal relationships (god i wish lmao) that it makes spinning the narrative easier for her. i’ve had relationships end and me realize that they weren’t that healthy — not saying that’s what’s happening here, but that’s what this switch reminds me of. confusing!
Thank you for taking the time to read it!! ♥️
ooh is there a neutral sub? or are you talking about r taylorswift?
Yes and it kept being suggested to me but I had to mute it because it’s not neutral they all post hateful Taylor shit but act like they are being constructive but it’s just a way to talk shit about her but say oh no we are neutral
I will say though, I haven't seen any outright misogyny on there. Most of the criticism I have seen is valid and there is room for nuance. I think it's okay for people, even fans, to want a safe place to vent about things they are frustrated about.
The entire internet already trashes her though so there are plenty of spaces to do so already. Saying it’s neutral is just not true. I don’t think she’s the second coming of Christ but if I have to see more people bash her for bringing her friend and collaborator Lana on stage and not hugging Celine Dion .. I just can’t.
r/ Swiftly Neutral. It's a little weird sometimes but I like to lurk there too Edited to remove link!
Just fyi we aren't allowed to link the sub here to avoid brigading (unless something changed).
ty!
I really appreciate the sub and was recommended it by a fellow Gaylor. It seems like we have been the only subset that has approached her critically before the sub. It is NOT a gaylor friendly sub, but they allow discourse about it when news comes out, like the CNN articles etc. It’s not all and out ban worthy to discuss gaylor but it’s not really “allowed” either. Sometimes people will admit to being a Gaylor and not be downvoted into oblivion, and the mods are balanced and even with not allowing people to shit talk them either. It can get it’s share of parasocial fans, and sometimes the swifties bombard it, but it’s quickly become my other favorite TS sub. The discourse is smart most of the time and you will not get downvoted or harassed for having other opinions of Taylor besides she’s amazing like on main.
Yes thank you for the reminder that outright gaylor discourse is not technically allowed! However, I've outed myself there and had some pretty okay discussions about it, so I consider it "safe" at least, which is not something I can say for very many TS spaces online.
Oooh there’s a post up now about Taylor queerbaiting/using Rainbow Capitalism that also touches on her quote “Pride makes me me!” And the comments I’ve read so far are excellent! Your post is great and the discourse was needed. 😍
No way Bejeweled is about Joe, I think it's a pretty clear swipe at Calvin (as a beard though: the whole "I don't remember" part when asked if she has a boyfriend lol). Whether or not Toe was real I do think it's very clear they ended on a bad note, I do not think she was expecting it to end before tour was over. Hell, she had just put their signs together on a "Mastermind" easter egg in the Lavender Haze video. I think he blindsided her when he decided to go public with the breakup (whether they had really broken up romantically or he wanted out of the contract early).
I thought it was about Calvin as well.
That's a good point! I don't know anything about Calvin tbh. I didn't know there was a narrative about him holding her back while she made him her "world". Just the big ol' beard line lol. The references to being locked away and ignored just said Joe to me. Not to mention the shoes line. 🤭 hehe.
Right. She seems to at least be working hard to undo the whole narrative around Toe/him being William Bowery. I've always said, if Toe was real, Joe was kind of a dick. There's a difference between wanting privacy and acting like your partner's work is uninteresting and unworthy of attention, and that you don't care about a grammy. Anyways. We don't know what went down, or what the album will be, but Joe getting a little bit of shit in her discography is not necessarily totally immature or petty.
This is how I feel about Joe. I never liked him because I found his seeming disinterest in her work/refusal to talk about her very off-putting. But what fascinates me now is the general consensus in this sub that he didn't do anything wrong and doesn't deserve this. We literally don't know what happened but the most accepted narrative in here is that she's being petty and he did nothing wrong. What if he did do things wrong? Why isn't that even considered? And in a larger context: why isn't she being given even a sliver of the benefit of the doubt by a lot of people in this sub?
I don't think the consensus is that he *didn't* do anything wrong, but rather that presuming he did before knowing anything (like a lot of hetlors have on twitter) is bad. What doubt are we to give her when she hasn't even said anything yet? We'll find out what she has to say about it on April 19th, and can revisit then.
I definitely didn't mean to imply he could do no wrong, but from what we HAVE seen, he doesn't deserve the John Mayer treatment. I just personally don't think she CARES enough to write an entire album about him.
The irony is that I don't think she really dated John Mayer, but let's say it was real, it was, at most, 6 months. She was apparently with Joe for 6 years, and we're supposed to find it petty that she's going to have maybe half a record about it? (Not directed at you OP, just a lot of the discourse of the past few days)
Okay that's a fair point 🤣
I agree with you on that and your take on You're Losing Me that's up thread a bit. I don't think this album will be 100% about Joe but I'm leaving room for the idea that if there's a negative song about Joe he may have done something to deserve it.
I actually think they were a real relationship too (I'm into the idea of a bi/pan Taylor) - I think everyone acting like YLM was so brutal and awful has never been in an *adult* relationship that ended. It's very much just about falling out of love and being on different pages about the future of the relationship. I'm ready to eat my words, I just don't think she'd make the whole album about him. I think she wants to move on more than that.
>I think everyone acting like YLM was so brutal and awful has never been in an > >adult > > relationship that ended. It's very much just about falling out of love and being on different pages about the future of the relationship. THIS. THANK YOU. Sometimes shit just doesn't work out, and yes it HURTS like a motherfucker, but it also doesn't make either person a villain. Maybe he was a giant abusive d-bag (I guess we're gonna find out, LOL), but maybe it just ... wasn't right in the end, no matter how much she wanted it to be. Honestly, in my experience, that's MORE sad than when someone ends up being a dick.
YES EXACTLY. If they are an asshole, in my experience, it's so much easier to move on because you know you deserve better. If it just doesn't work out because you're on different pages, it hurts so much because neither one of you did anything wrong, so there's nowhere easy to put the blame.
And if no one's doing anything actively wrong, you might keep trying and trying — for, I don't know, six whole years even — because surely you can make it right? And he's killing you and he doesn't even know it. No one teaches you what to do When a good man hurts you And you know you hurt him too
Yes, because you love them and you can't put your finger on why it isn't working 🩷😭
😭
YLM is very possibly about her relationship with her fans, hetlors in particular. There’s a good post about it on this sub.
OOH I will have to look for that one
Idk if my post is the one u/sadalienrobot is talking about but I did a post speculating that YLM is directed at hetlors - [https://www.reddit.com/r/GaylorSwift/comments/188w5vw/youre\_losing\_me\_lyric\_analysis/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GaylorSwift/comments/188w5vw/youre_losing_me_lyric_analysis/)
Yes it is! Great post.
thanks!
Even if it's not about Joe, she needs to be explicit to her fans that it's not about Joe because he's just catching strays left and right. The fan base/media are practically frothing at the mouth for her to drag him
I literally saw a tweet this morning from Crumbl cookies shading him. It has gotten out of control when brands are bullying this man. [Crumbl Cookies on X: "all I’m saying is this probably wouldn’t be happening to him if he was cookie shop guy instead of yogurt shop guy." / X (twitter.com)](https://twitter.com/CrumblCookies/status/1755694583902793786)
Yeah, it's bad enough that she is letting them go after him if their relationship was real imo; it's even worse if it wasn't real.
Why is she so obsessed with “red herrings” that implicate people who didn’t even do anything wrong? (If we go off the Gaylor interpretation.)
Bc it allows her to hide in plain sight
lol remember Jake gyllenhaal? that was brutal... swiffers lost the plot when they started commenting the scarf emoji on his IG.
lol remember Jake gyllenhaal? that was brutal... swiffers lost the plot when they started commenting the scarf emoji on his IG.
jake gyllenhal is still a weirdo and has SA allegations so personally i think he’s lucky he ONLY got that 😭
The scarf kills me every time because I'm like, it's not some big double meaning, cool it
At *best*, she might give him the John Mayer treatment before SNTV ("I’m not putting this album out so you can go on the internet and defend me against someone you think I wrote a song about").
I hope she does, but I doubt she will. She's been really tight-lipped about specific muses. I'm *kinda* optimistic because of the "muses acquired like bruises" line
I 100% believe the album will have at least one song cowritten by William Bowery
I’ve been thinking the same!!
omg i bet clara bow will be… at the end of karma she sits down at the piano with a man, so that makes it seem like TS11 was worked on with someone else.
That would be some HOT tea imo
It really just feels like such a slap in the face for her to go on about “moving on” and being past drama (long story short, it’s time to go, closure, KARMA, there’s probs more examples that I can’t articulate rn) and then just be like “lol lemme release an entire diss album that will make my enormous fan base go rabid on Twitter against you” .. like that just doesn’t make sense for her to do in my mind? Especially after her whole speech before she performed dear John a while back about not spreading hate? I’m probably thinking way too much about this but I’m really hoping people don’t burn joe at the stake for this album:/ people break up (or contracts end lol), it’s not the end of the world ig Edited to fix spelling mistakes smh my head
Its kind of obvious that its time to go, closure is about Karlie? This is very separate from her contract with Joe
no, it's not obvious. She's had a lot of potential muses.
I mean she wrote an entire song supposedly being about forgetting Kanye existed and then years later named dropped him in her TOTY article. I think as much as she says she dgaf she holds onto grudges and is super petty
I thought that song was about Calvin..... since we all forgot he existed
It's pretty clearly about both, IMO. First verse about KimYe, second verse about Calvin.
I forgot you existed could just be about Karlie.
Ugh yes true that was so disappointing
I think y’all are forgetting how petty she can be. I think it’s totally (mostly) about him.
I mean that's also part of why I think it is not all about Joe!
Yes exactly! Sorry I totally agree with you, I wasn’t trying to come off like I didn’t 😭
I think it’ll be a more meta type of album examining her relationship to fame and how she operates as a celebrity. Just based off the very small amount of lyrics we saw in her announcement.
That's what a ton of her music is about now, people just seem to miss it a lot of the time.
I would love this but I am so cautious after midnights, which I didn’t connect with at all. It seems like she will go for the low hanging fruit- songs revealing the downfall of her relationship which people will eat tf up.
That's so interesting because I LOVED Midnights. Maroon and Would've, Could've, Should've are in my top 10 of her whole discography! Anti-Hero, YOYOK, Mastermind, and YLM are also up there for me.
Same
I think there was already quite a lot of that in Midnights; Gaylors generally picked up on some of it, Hetlors on rather less. I would certainly be interested in seeing more from her.
Yes, agree. I’m really hoping these songs go the way of Dear Reader, which felt extremely honest and blunt for Taylor. She just wrapped it up in pretty packaging and Hetlors didn’t realize what she was saying.
Lavender Haze - the contrast between the public expectations of her for a relationship and what she actually is. The haze of being not quite out, but not fully closeted. Anti-Hero - about herself and her persona YOYOK - herself and her rise to fame Midnight Rain - maybe some rel stuff, but also about her desire for fame and autonomy Vigilante Shit - herself. Business relationships and betrayals more than romantic ones. Bejeweled - there was some relationship shade, but it also feels very much like psyching herself up for coming back to pop post folkmore, and also potentially harking back to rep post snakegate. Karma - imo written at least in part as a nod to the karma album theory. But also about her, not rels. Mastermind - ostensibly about her relationship, but there's so much there about masking and unmasking and her social engineering and control of her fandom in there. High Infidelity - could be about a relationship? But there's strong takes for it being about her relationship with the truth and with her fans as a result. Would've Could've Should've - I firmly believe this is Taylor's relationship with her own fame hunger, though it references some beards/muses/bad decisions. Dear Reader, obviously, is the most fourth wall breaking. Relationship ones are Maroon, Snow on the Beach, Question, Labyrinth, Sweet Nothing (now indicated to be about Paul), The Great War (probably? But I'm honestly not 100% sure), and Paris (though that still has the matter of her closeting hanging over her), and Glitch. Then BTTWS sits in it's own area, really, of ambiguity whether it's for the death of another or some part of herself that she lost.
love your interpretation of Bejeweled! *I can still make the whole room shimmer* definitely reads as return to pop stardom after the more melancholic, folk FolkMore
The Great War always felt like a song to her brother, about surviving their parent’s divorce… I do t have any specific reasoning behind it, just what I heard the first time and it stuck.
Love this! Just curious, do you think her nod to the karma theory indicates that she might release the album Karma?
I think Karma will be TS 13 (TS 12 being a sister to TTPD )
That would be epic! I thought for sure Karma would be TS11 because it was track 11 on Midnights
I think BTTWS is about herself, whether it’s about her failed coming out, or the real part of herself she’ll never get to let out…which gives me RWYLM vibes. But that’s just my opinion 😄
BTTWS for me is about miscarriage. Saw someone mention that the beginning of the song sounds like an ultrasound when they are trying to find a heartbeat. I cannot perceive the song differently now.
agreed that it’s about herself! BTTWS screamed ‘mourning my inner child/pre-fame self’ to me
love this assessment! i do think a lot of her work is more self-referential than it appears on the surface.
The Great War reads to me to be about the masters heist
I kindof got relationship vibes from the Great War, the speculation that someone close to her had something to do with the masters heist and how they got through it. “Somewhere in the haze got a sense I’d been betrayed” “soldier down in that icy ground, looked up at me with honor and truth”
There was a really good post on here recently speculating that all of evermore - and also the great war because it references ivy - is about the failed coming out + masters heist, and that the I and the you in the great war is Taylor swift^(TM) and the real/queer taylor, i.e. she's talking to herself and distinguishing between the person who wanted to come out and the person who shoved her back in the closet
Ditto
- YOYOK could mean "You're On Your Own, Kid", a track from *Midnights* (2022) by Taylor Swift. - BTTWS could mean "Bigger Than The Whole Sky", a track from *Midnights (3am Edition)* (2022) by Taylor Swift. --- ^[/u/afterandalasia](/u/afterandalasia) ^(can reply with "delete" to remove comment. |) ^[/r/songacronymbot](/r/songacronymbot) ^(for feedback.)
Good bot!
That's kind of what I am thinking! Like with "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" being a movie about essentially performing a marriage and all the Clara Bow stuff
Yes, exactly! This is very much just based on vibes and some conclusions we can make from song titles, but I really do expect this album to be a bit different from her typical diaristic stuff.