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Plenty of kids are born into financially instable households and plenty of them do fine. If you are a good parent with a good head on your shoulders, then your kid will hardly know the difference and will turn out fine.
There are absolutely “means” by which poor people can have kids
Literally no they are not. Holy shit read health literature. Poverty and fiscally unstable households create so many long term health problems as a result it's not even funny. Having children isn't going to fix the world. Stepping up to your government will. They can't drone strike the entire population of workers. We have so much more power than anyone in charge would ever let us believe. They are scared, and running out of excuses to feed this generation.
This take is inanely lacking in perspective. We’re living in the most peaceful time in human history where advances in medicine, nutrition, and general standard of living are at their highest point.
Don’t have kids if you don’t want, but this misinformed doomerism is wrongfooted.
Correct.
We just see more "bad" thanks to social media.
Remember when most people didn't have cellphones (let alone smartphones) and had like 12 TV channels to choose from?
Now you can watch 24/7 live footage of every war/protest/suffering of everyone everywhere all the time using your thumbs.
That’s not the world though. That’s humanity. There’s is a distinction. Many species have gone extinct and habitats being lost which will lead to exponential problems. Wildlife is being displaced, earth is being severely polluted in every corner. Humans have a better quality of life, at the expense of our planetary kin.
I think the problem here is sustainability. Industrialization has made things better, yes, but the leeched microplastics in the water supply, the increased CO2 in the atmosphere, deforestation, and other such hazards are very concerning that our way of life may not be preserved into the future. Not only this, but global inequality and the effects of global capitalism are also concerning, as corporations continue to increase their power and influence over governments and people.
Hey yanno as someone who's thought this exact thought it really makes me happy to see there's another realist (or dickhead if ya ask some people) that sees it the same way lmao.
But according to what it’s a “good idea”?
A stupid person might think it’s a good idea to have kids despite hardly being able to provide food to their children. Someone who isn’t emotionally ready to have kids might decide to have some just because it’s the “norm” or it’s what expected of them. Couples in dysfunctional marriages often have kids believing it’ll fix their marriage and traumatize their kids, but to them, that’s a good idea. An abusive person might think it’s a good idea to change by having a kid and abuse that kid as well.
So it’s not a “good idea” if you think it’s a “good idea”. It’s another life you’re gambling with and I’m not even getting into the negative affects unnecessary/bad parenting might cause to environment and society.
I was once offered free unprotected sex from someone who lived in the same apartment complex as me.
She said that she wanted me to sign a paper in advance releasing my parental rights, and she told me that we could have sex everyday until she got pregnant.
She told me that if she had one more child her monthly welfare benefits would go up by about another $1,000.
I told her no.
Keeping diseases and such in mind, I often wonder back at that. I had already gotten my vasectomy. I wonder how long I could have kept that going? 🤔
I am definitely not wanting to say that all welfare recipients are this messed up. I have known many many people, including myself, who have used welfare to pick themselves back up.
She was not normal.
Same problem that foster care has. Lots of states give a stipend to help you care for the kid, which is a beautiful thing, but it attracts abusers. Say you get $600 a month to watch a 12 year old for a year, if you can keep him alive for $250 a month, you just made $350 untaxed.
Anyway that woman sounds disgusting, where does she live so I can avoid her? Like her exact address
This is a bit silly. That has been the likely fate of nearly every human ever. Not a valid reason to not exist.
I mean you can go that route but it’s not informed by history.
If you are looking for reasons to not have kids “well, I think we have enough humans” is a perfectly sound reason.
Im definitely not dog whistling to pro-life arguments but I think I would prefer to have a chance in the wasteland rather than not being born at all. And our children wont inherit a wasteland either, just the world in its chaotic and sometimes very cruel nature in what may be a particularly low point.
consist towering materialistic heavy hateful encouraging friendly grab trees snobbish
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I'm not gonna have kids.
But if possible I wouldn't mind adopting. There are kids in need of a home, and they're gonna have a hell of a future ahead of them to being with.
I'm married, we could theoretically afford a kid relatively easy but like...ew?
I don't want to give them mine (or hers) mental disorders, I don't want to force them to grow up on a dying, depressing planet, and I don't want that responsibility, lol.
As someone who just had a child, it's an incredibly primal experience. You really don't understand how close to animals we truly still are until you go through childbirth and rearing.
My wife and I both have economics and statistics degrees, I do engineering for a living emminently logical, and all that shit. But man, a child really made us much more attached to the world in ways we just weren't before. We were both waaaaay more detached from reality, but now we seem to actually "exist" if that makes sense
It really hits home that, yeah, we are definitely the products of millions of years of evolution, and we were definitely intended to reproduce, in a way that you just don't feel before the child
I hear a lot of people go through this. When you have a child, you now live only for that child. I already want a child. I can't imagine how I would change once I actually have one.
Yea I’m scared of who I’ll become if a have a little girl. My wife will need to hide my credit cards cause I wouldn’t be able to go out and not buy everything I see for her
Same experience. Just had a child and holy shit the feeling of seeing that baby being born, and hearing its cry is indescribable. I never grew up knowing I wanted to be a dad. I never thought I even wanted to get married. But taking care of this baby has brought me so much undeniable clarity about my life, it’s recontextualized my childhood and my relationship to my parents, and feels like grounded me in a way. As someone who’s spent their whole life living in their own head, I feel a weird peace worrying about someone other than myself for once.
We are not "close to animals" because we still are animals and always will be. Animals have sexual preferences, they look for specific things in partners.we do that. Animals go wild for food they think is good. We do that. Some animals want to protect their kids with their lives. We do that. Animals also have territories and we do that in the form of writing it into our laws. Not even our cognitive capavilities seperate us from them because it's a thing we evolved as a survial strategy, doesn't really make us superior.
Because adoption is expensive, has concerning ties to human trafficking, and is an extremely difficult and long process. Getting pregnant? Assuming you don’t need ivf you literally just have sex with no protection at an optimal time of the month.
And if you want to foster to adopt to avoid the expense and barriers of traditional adoption, then you will be taking care of kids that have a higher likelihood of having challenging behaviors due to their experiences. Which is fine if you're prepared for that, but some people walk into it without fully considering if they can handle it.
Have kid from your and your loved one’s dna, the process of being pregnant and count months for the baby. This all sounds very funny. But in the end, you love your kid not because they are from your dna, but because you accept them as your kid and spend time together.
Adoption in some areas can be incredibly expensive. I’ve known people who adopted and it can easily cost $40k. Raising kids can already be very expensive, but having that much cost up front isn’t realistic for a lot of people. Not to mention the approval and qualifying process for adoption. It’s nice in theory that everyone would just adopt, but the reality of the process prevents that.
It’s an outrageous belief unless you admit that your life and everyone you have ever known has done nothing but suffer, and never experienced joy.
It’s an infantile narcissistic and cynical coping mechanism disguised as a “belief”.
I don't believe antinatalists believe there is no joy in life at all, which simply isnt true. They believe that the amount of suffering in one's life is greater than the amount of joy, and thus that life is not worth living. From a nihilistic perspective it is logically sound if you assume that the amount of suffering in a given life is greater than the joy, which I take to be true.
From many non-nihlistic perspectives there are many times when (assisted) suicide is the saner option. Like there are some who want to live until their terminal disease literally kills them, while many others of us want to die before we become a husk of barely maintained biological processes. Because we have seen how horrible the last stage of Alzheimer's and much else is.
What’s infantile is not even attempting to understand a idea.
[Benatar’s asymmetry argument](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benatar%27s_asymmetry_argument)
Yeah I never understand why people want to persuade people to have children because of that kinda thing.
Surely some people shouldn't have children, And people who don't want kids have got to be a lot those.
Bringing new conciousness to existance just because you want to give your life meaning and fullfill your biological need to reproduce sounds more narcissistic.
You act as if it's a lack of education, but antinatalism is not something you can really argue effectively against unless you don't realize the weight of reality. It's kinda right.
Same goes for the vegan/vegetarian thing.
Which is why it makes people so angry and lash out all weird.
Saying this as someone currently doing fertility preservation so I can have kids later and who eats meat every day.
Like, just accept that you're not a perfectly good person and you do things simply because you want to and can get away with it in this society move on. Unfortunately most peeps are way too fragile to ever admit to themselves they're not an angel, which is kinda pathetic to me. No humans are perfect angels. Do some shadow work like an adult and get over it.
Antinatalism is the ethical claim that giving birth is always morally wrong. If you look up academic papers on the topic somewhere like Philpapers, or read the Stanford Encyclopedia [summary](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/parenthood/), it will be apparent that the academic consensus is that giving birth is not always morally wrong.
Shit dude I live in the US in a major city, and one of my coworkers just got pregnant with her *seventh kid* for the sole reason of “I miss dressing up baby girls”. She’s in the same job position as me, and started after I did so I know she’s making the same or less than me, which is barely enough for one kid.
No bueno decision making is worldwide with the dummies
Edit: yes she has a husband but he has three kids he brought in to the house as well. Between the two of them they have ten kids with another on the way. The older five are not his, so I believe she gets child support for them or they work part time jobs to help with rent. They don’t own a house, so they’re renting which is precarious in this city.
Hmm my logic is inverted from yours.
Someone hired to the same position after me would most likely be making more than me. The largest raises in your career come from switching jobs, not staying at one place for a long time.
In most 3rd world countries children are used as an extra source of income. They have laxer child labor laws, so they begin working earlier than most places. Typically families with more children are better off because of this
No contraceptives will probably be a factor in that.
And on a darker note, isn’t the reason most developing nations have large families is that statistically most of them won’t make it to adulthood?
This is shockingly accurate
Like, one of my aunt in laws has 15 kids (nearly every kid has different father) and basically lived off my grandparents until my dad/uncles kicked her out (the worst thing is that the government pays her tons of money to help support the kids even though the money rarely goes to them, like at one point some of the dads basically came and forcefully took their kids back after CPS refused to do anything about it)
Like, in some areas it kinda makes sense, child mortality rates are still high, they need extra hands to help with the farm etc, that I can understand and makes quite alot of sense.
But then there are some people who don't have farms/need farms and just have kid after kid to the point where they are relying on the government for aid, and these types of people don't even take birth control (which is incredibly ironic considering that those big rural families actually take birth control from time to time and actually make the effort to figure out whether or not having another kid could benefit them)
tl;dr the idea of having a large family is still very prevalent in many 2rd world countries and it doesn't help that most of these families refuse to use contraception. Oh and some of the wife's that get married/start having kids **are as young as 10 years old**
FYI the second world was the communist Soviet Union and China and their proxies. The first world is liberal republics and democracies(Western Civilization) the third world was everyone else(developing nations).
If people had children during the plague in 1300s europe or during world war II or during the glacial cooling event that nearly wiped out humanity, I’m sure you can have children in the 21st century. I’m so tired of this generation thinking they’re exceptional in facing existential threats.
I agree completely. Only people who want kids should have them and no harm if people don’t, but people have faced crises since before we even evolved into Homo sapiens. We are not unique in having struggles and difficulties, but humans have always risen to the challenge. I have hope we’ll tackle climate change.
I think it’s more specifically the type of person who spends multiple hours a day on reddit or social media rather than going outside and experiencing the world that think like this. The concentration of doomers online, and especially on teenager/younger subs like this, is way higher than it actually is irl. Social media is just a cesspool of extreme takes and pessimism, because that’s what gets clicks.
Generation Alpha is half the size of almost every previous generation.
That means that half of all adults (in the US) who would normally have had children, did not.
Thats an incredibly widespread phenomenon that speaks to a much larger issue than just "internet bad" or "teen doomers".
Something is broken and needs to be fixed, now.
People don't realize it yet, but having even a single generation be half as large as the ones before it will cause extremely hard to reverse changes in our society.
Just look at South Korea, they're looking at an almost complete population collapse within a single generation.
My great grandparents were alive for the Great Depression, WW2, polio epidemic, and narrowly missed being born during the time of the Spanish flu. There were so many to her horrible things happening at that time as well, but people kept on and still lived their lives. I get that having kids isn’t for everyone, and that’s fine, but I hate this mindset that we’re living in the worst time in history and should just give up.
Go for it! To me not having kids is like not voting- totally valid decision, but you will have no influence on what the future of the world will look like several generations from now.
That’s pretty ridiculous. There are plenty of ways to influence the future that don’t involve having your own kids. And just because someone has kids doesn’t mean they or their progeny are influencing the future in any meaningful way.
Just to drive home the silliness: some of the most influential thinkers to ever exist didn't have children. Plato, Newton, Locke, Hobbes, Kant, Hume, Adam Smith, Simone de Beauvoir, Descartes, Spinoza, Leibniz, Simone Weil, Iris Murdoch, Schopenhauer, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, etc, etc, didn't have kids yet influenced the world more than most parents could ever dream to. Not to mention teachers/professors, politicians, and any of the myriad of ways one can influence the world or make it a better place beyond having biological children. It's nothing like "not voting."
I know this is a meme but honestly this generation really needs to stop victimizing itself. I can assure you that you live better than 99% of people that have ever lived, stop complaining 24/7. (I am a gen Z myself).
Edit: no, I am not saying that we should not try to improve things for us and the next generation, BUT a lot of times a perspective on the macro situation is necessary, which is something that I see lacking a lot in younger generations perception of reality.
You're aware that we're living through a scientifically recognized mass extinction event? "But we still have a power grid and fast food for ten more years!" Genius take.
Dude, stop with the doomsday paranoia. No, we're not going anywhere. Yes, life and society as we know it are bound to change, our lifestyle in the future will be drastically different than today's, but we're not getting extinct any time soon.
People also arent dumb enough to deny vaccines, or believe the world is flat, or dumb enough to believe mythical texts written thousands of years ago to be 100% true.
Get real, we are definetly stupid enough to destroy ourselves. WW2 was 10 times worse than WW1. How bad would a third one be? Only takes a single nuke to kickstart the last conflict ever. And we have thousands.
Seriously, the "the world will literally end and all life on earth will be exterminated by climate change within our/our childrens' lifetimes" does nothing but hurt the credibility of the movement. Hyperbole and sensationalism hardly ever convinces anyone but the gullible, and can be pointed to by opponents when the wild doomsday predictions don't come to pass as a sign that it was all bunk. If people think human caused climate change is anywhere near the level of something like the Oxygen Catastrophe they're delusional.
Shhh… let them be. If a bunch of chronically online losers somehow get it in their heads that they shouldn’t start families, then the next generation won’t have any more chronically online losers. It’s a win-win.
Just because we have social media and internet everywhere doesn’t mean it’s a good world to raise kids. You realize even 50 years ago a family with 5 kids could live comfortably while affording a house, food, entertainment, and education all on a single blue collar salary with a stay at home mom. There’s literally no way anyone in America can do that now and be happy. This is coming from a gen z that makes 6 figures who might have 1-2 kids with the right person. Gen z isn’t victimizing themselves they are the victims of a world that they had no control over creating and have to live through the consequences of actions of people who will be dead before they even see the results of their choices
This 100 times over. Don’t have kids if you don’t want - that’s your choice. The idea that we live in uniquely doomed times though is so egotistical - especially when the times we live are objectively the best times to live anywhere in the world.
It’s hard though. Coming from the societal wealth of the 1990s and 2000s and seeing our living standards get worse every year is more depressing than living in poverty but seeing things get better every year. A poor person who sees their lives getting better every year is hopeful and optimistic of the future. A formerly wealthy person (western middle class) who sees their standard of living degrade for 20 years is not someone who thinks things will get better. Yes in world history we have it the 4th best in history (boomers had it the best and it’s been declining since) however the fact it’s been declining is why we are so depressed
Us living "better" than 99% of people is PRECISELY the problem.
Everyone has a phone=Lithium mines.
AC+can drive fly anywhere in the world=global warming
What you said is irrelevant
The point of this post isn’t that we have it worse or better it’s that we are literally on a dying planet. The generation below us is in for a very very rough environment in the future. Your point about how people had it worst in the past is not relevant to the fact that it’s probably gonna be way worse in 100 years
Look at your fellow humans. They will not let it all turn to dust. It will be torture before death. Life is a bunch of pinpricks and humanity will just gobble it up and not care for the pain it will make others go through...all in the name of progress and money.
You should only have kids when you're ready. Financially stable, and can provide all the love and support they need.
Don't just have kids for the sake of having kids
Why do u guys always talk about “we” as if u not having kids is in any way going to influence my decision and we’re a monolith or something?
I don’t plan to whine like a little bitch about how much the world sucks for the rest of my life. Personally I was raised to take responsibility. Not only for my children but for my role in the world they grow up in and how they grow up in it. But if u can’t handle that pressure then hell yea u should stay away from having kids. That’s common sense/natural selection.
Pros of having a child:
Get to pass on name that me and 4 other generations have (50% chance)
Kids are cute
Cons of having a child:
I don’t want to pass on any mental issues that goes in my family
Pregnancy sounds awful
Climate change
Might be future Ted Bundy
Expensive
Kids are annoying
As you should be. No way any 20 year old should be having kids😂
My wife and I are having our first child (28 and 27) but we spent all of last year financially planning for it as best as we can. We make 6 figures together and have stability in our careers and finances. For us, that was a goal we set out to accomplish together.
I get it may sound crazy to some, but we both wanted to have kids together but agreed we’d wait h til we were ready.
Ok, climate change is imo not a reason to not have kids. People had kids during the black death, your kids will be fine. The larger problem is more about how there is no incentive to have kids.
The Black Death wasn’t the whole fucking planet dying 🤦 If science is at all correct, shits gonna really hit the fan within the next 50 years and the planet will forever be changed.
Also can I get a source on this “your kids will be fine” do you know something we don’t about the future?
It’s the whole planet eventually becoming unlivable. I’m not saying this is gonna happen in our lifetime but it will affect future generations. It’s concerning how unbothered by climate change this sub is for it literally being a gen z sub
Life has recovered from several mass extinctions. Even if 99% of species die out in a few million years life will be thriving again.
And with humans we have the technology to fix our mistakes, or at least build infrastructure to survive in a more hostile climate.
We're not going extinct. Billions might die if shit truly hits the fan, however the species will survive.
The Black Death killed about 20% of the Earths population at the time. A much much greater proportion of the population than climate change will ever kill.
Also People have been saying for 50 years “we only got 10 years left” “20 years and we’re going to lose coastal cities” “30 years before global drought” and this dumb nonsense that’s not even backed by proper science. It’s all Hysteria.
As I matured, I've grown into the mindset of Team No-kids but if I ever got myself into a position where I had more than enough resources for myself and I was mentally ready for a 10-15+ year commitment (lifelong parental relationship as well), I would absolutely adopt in hopes of actually being able to provide a good quality if life for a child to prosper.
Currently I would see a child as a massive burden as I wouldn't be in a position to commit radical actions due to negative consequences altering an innocent person's life. IE: Shit in America hits the fan and the violent maga cultists with their RWDS's need to be met with equal/greater force.
You don’t think Boomers worried about the first atomic bomb actually being dropped, total global war, mass killings by Hitler and Stalin, etc?
Yet they made more babies than ever in history. Worries are nothing new.
Why did any generation before have kids then?
By this logic, everyone would have just hidden in his cave and complaines about those wild animals being so mean, the weather being so hostile and food being so difficult to find. Then humans would have been extinct already 100,000 years ago.
I mean, you can have babies or not, it's your freedom. I know many people who don't have kids for various reasons. Some reasons "make sense", some are honest about just not wanting to take responsibilities and rather enjoy their near unlimited personal freedoms which no other generation had before.
**It's also ok to not have a reason at all!**
But please, just stop pretending that it's all someone else's fault and finally stop being crybabies! No other generation had such a high standard of living, quality of life and life expectancy. Live your life they way YOU want, it's ok. But don't always victimise yourself when you are incredibly priviledged.
do young people not realize that murder is lower now than it had been for decades? That air and water is cleaner THAN EVER (since the industrial revolution), that "childcare" was always for rich people, that retirement is different today because people live longer and work longer - summers have ALWAYS been hot, housing has never been cheap (not decent housing) - you labor under this fantasy THAT HAS NEVER EXISTED
IM GONNA HAVE KIDSS
OR ATLEAST TRYIF I AM INFERTILE THAT WOULD BE AWFUL.
I also i am trying to get into the navy cause thats the only way I think I can afford to get a house anytime soon , I ALSO WANNA RUN A NUCLEAR REACTOR
this economy sucks ass. It could be worse but man it could be better
Nah. Just F*ck for fun...
Now, Congress has made abortion and contraception illegal...
*
Ok help me raise my kid...
America: All kids now able to work. Right to work laws increased. Unions crushed.
So much doomerism in this sub. Our ancestors faced far tougher battles without modern luxuries and still had children. If you don't want kids, fine. But someone's gotta do it.
Just incredible how the people in this sub fail to understand how lucky they are to be alive at this moment in human history. Not saying the future will be perfect or free of the problems mentioned in the meme, but you lot really need to appreciate what you have more.
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I think you should only have kids if you think its a good idea.
And if it also is actually a good idea
For better or worse, this is subjective.
Id say for worse, if you dont have money by no means should she have kids
Plenty of kids are born into financially instable households and plenty of them do fine. If you are a good parent with a good head on your shoulders, then your kid will hardly know the difference and will turn out fine. There are absolutely “means” by which poor people can have kids
Literally no they are not. Holy shit read health literature. Poverty and fiscally unstable households create so many long term health problems as a result it's not even funny. Having children isn't going to fix the world. Stepping up to your government will. They can't drone strike the entire population of workers. We have so much more power than anyone in charge would ever let us believe. They are scared, and running out of excuses to feed this generation.
No its not but you would need to be able to foresee the future to know the answer
Every opinion is subjective, no matter how many people agree with it.
Simply if the individual thinks it’s a good idea. Don’t want fascists dictating who can and can’t have kids now ;)
Who is dictating? People just giving their opinions, not writing laws here on Reddit.
[удалено]
Idiocracy was supposed to be a movie not a documentary…
Ow My Balls!
I want to dress up as a stores greeter and say "welcome to x, i love you" until someone throws me out.
It’s got what plants crave.
Idiocracy was not a documentary. It was a prophesy.
It is and always has been a prophesy.
This take is inanely lacking in perspective. We’re living in the most peaceful time in human history where advances in medicine, nutrition, and general standard of living are at their highest point. Don’t have kids if you don’t want, but this misinformed doomerism is wrongfooted.
Correct. We just see more "bad" thanks to social media. Remember when most people didn't have cellphones (let alone smartphones) and had like 12 TV channels to choose from? Now you can watch 24/7 live footage of every war/protest/suffering of everyone everywhere all the time using your thumbs.
The world has literally only improved since the Industrial Revolution, by every conceivable measure.
The ice caps, Amazon rainforest, and hundreds of now extinct species disagree
The quality of life for literally all humans is better.
Both statements can be correct at the same time.
That’s not the world though. That’s humanity. There’s is a distinction. Many species have gone extinct and habitats being lost which will lead to exponential problems. Wildlife is being displaced, earth is being severely polluted in every corner. Humans have a better quality of life, at the expense of our planetary kin.
yeah were kind of a mass extinction event
It has improved and gotten worse at the same time lmao
I think the problem here is sustainability. Industrialization has made things better, yes, but the leeched microplastics in the water supply, the increased CO2 in the atmosphere, deforestation, and other such hazards are very concerning that our way of life may not be preserved into the future. Not only this, but global inequality and the effects of global capitalism are also concerning, as corporations continue to increase their power and influence over governments and people.
everything fine *UNTIL* the industrial revolution? modern medicine? vaccines? mass agriculture to prevent famine? you ever use AC in your apartment???
I like that with all those important advancements you didn't forget the MOST important. AC
Hey yanno as someone who's thought this exact thought it really makes me happy to see there's another realist (or dickhead if ya ask some people) that sees it the same way lmao.
The human population increased 5 times since 1900. I'd say evolution favours us big time.
But according to what it’s a “good idea”? A stupid person might think it’s a good idea to have kids despite hardly being able to provide food to their children. Someone who isn’t emotionally ready to have kids might decide to have some just because it’s the “norm” or it’s what expected of them. Couples in dysfunctional marriages often have kids believing it’ll fix their marriage and traumatize their kids, but to them, that’s a good idea. An abusive person might think it’s a good idea to change by having a kid and abuse that kid as well. So it’s not a “good idea” if you think it’s a “good idea”. It’s another life you’re gambling with and I’m not even getting into the negative affects unnecessary/bad parenting might cause to environment and society.
The problem is, it’s never a financially good idea…
I don't think anybody have kids thinking to earn money out of them
Not anymore. It used to be the best way to get more farmhands.
I was once offered free unprotected sex from someone who lived in the same apartment complex as me. She said that she wanted me to sign a paper in advance releasing my parental rights, and she told me that we could have sex everyday until she got pregnant. She told me that if she had one more child her monthly welfare benefits would go up by about another $1,000. I told her no. Keeping diseases and such in mind, I often wonder back at that. I had already gotten my vasectomy. I wonder how long I could have kept that going? 🤔 I am definitely not wanting to say that all welfare recipients are this messed up. I have known many many people, including myself, who have used welfare to pick themselves back up. She was not normal.
Same problem that foster care has. Lots of states give a stipend to help you care for the kid, which is a beautiful thing, but it attracts abusers. Say you get $600 a month to watch a 12 year old for a year, if you can keep him alive for $250 a month, you just made $350 untaxed. Anyway that woman sounds disgusting, where does she live so I can avoid her? Like her exact address
This is 80% of the reason people have kids. Extra slaves.
I think it's a terrible idea to bring a child into a world where they will likely die in a natural disaster or miserable and poor. Oh wait, that's me
This is a bit silly. That has been the likely fate of nearly every human ever. Not a valid reason to not exist. I mean you can go that route but it’s not informed by history. If you are looking for reasons to not have kids “well, I think we have enough humans” is a perfectly sound reason.
Im definitely not dog whistling to pro-life arguments but I think I would prefer to have a chance in the wasteland rather than not being born at all. And our children wont inherit a wasteland either, just the world in its chaotic and sometimes very cruel nature in what may be a particularly low point.
Yep, there's always hope. I'd rather struggle to fix a broken world than not exist at all.
consist towering materialistic heavy hateful encouraging friendly grab trees snobbish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you think this is the worst time to be born you really need to vary your media diet and stop falling for fear mongering.
News flash, every child you bring into the world will die.
Do you think most people die of natural disasters? Because that is not how people are likely to die.
No, those are the people who *definitely* shouldn’t be having kids. No sense of reason.
I'm not gonna have kids. But if possible I wouldn't mind adopting. There are kids in need of a home, and they're gonna have a hell of a future ahead of them to being with.
same here. glad to see camaraderie in our generation
This is me and my ladies plan when we have some money! We want to save a kid. Both 24
That’s where my head and heart have been at for a while now too
https://preview.redd.it/n9pyrpj2msmc1.jpeg?width=937&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a2a51c5f2dbd0d8d2b5130eac8aa7d0cc2cdace
Man isn't stupid he knows this is wholesome
Why is man giving me a thumbs up? Is he proud of me?
He’s proud of you, Dick.
Hey, why are you calling me a dick?
Dick Grayson is Batman's biological son. With Talia al-Ghul iirc?
I know. It's a joke on the Arkham subreddit to ask why he calls Nightwing a dick, even though he's just saying his name.
Children can be cruel
Are you stupid?
Me too! My partner and I are planning to adopt in the future
That's actually an amazing idea. Help the already existing kids instead of making new ones
I’ve been thinking about doing the same. Some kids deserve a chance.
Just some?
Same, I have kids names in mind, but I don't want to bring more kids into the world when there are so many kids without parents.
Yup, plus it puts a lot more time on the biological clock. I probably wouldn't adopt after 50 personally.
I'm married, we could theoretically afford a kid relatively easy but like...ew? I don't want to give them mine (or hers) mental disorders, I don't want to force them to grow up on a dying, depressing planet, and I don't want that responsibility, lol.
Adoption is a nice option
Honestly don’t get why this isnt the norm. Like why make a kid when there are already tons out there that need a good home?
Some people think they are peak human and that a baby with their DNA would be god’s gift to humanity i guess
As someone who just had a child, it's an incredibly primal experience. You really don't understand how close to animals we truly still are until you go through childbirth and rearing. My wife and I both have economics and statistics degrees, I do engineering for a living emminently logical, and all that shit. But man, a child really made us much more attached to the world in ways we just weren't before. We were both waaaaay more detached from reality, but now we seem to actually "exist" if that makes sense It really hits home that, yeah, we are definitely the products of millions of years of evolution, and we were definitely intended to reproduce, in a way that you just don't feel before the child
I hear a lot of people go through this. When you have a child, you now live only for that child. I already want a child. I can't imagine how I would change once I actually have one.
Yea I’m scared of who I’ll become if a have a little girl. My wife will need to hide my credit cards cause I wouldn’t be able to go out and not buy everything I see for her
Same experience. Just had a child and holy shit the feeling of seeing that baby being born, and hearing its cry is indescribable. I never grew up knowing I wanted to be a dad. I never thought I even wanted to get married. But taking care of this baby has brought me so much undeniable clarity about my life, it’s recontextualized my childhood and my relationship to my parents, and feels like grounded me in a way. As someone who’s spent their whole life living in their own head, I feel a weird peace worrying about someone other than myself for once.
We are not "close to animals" because we still are animals and always will be. Animals have sexual preferences, they look for specific things in partners.we do that. Animals go wild for food they think is good. We do that. Some animals want to protect their kids with their lives. We do that. Animals also have territories and we do that in the form of writing it into our laws. Not even our cognitive capavilities seperate us from them because it's a thing we evolved as a survial strategy, doesn't really make us superior.
That's a way of putting it. I wouldn't be so harsh, because we are genetically hardwired to reproduce. But yeah, you're not wrong.
Because adoption is expensive, has concerning ties to human trafficking, and is an extremely difficult and long process. Getting pregnant? Assuming you don’t need ivf you literally just have sex with no protection at an optimal time of the month.
And if you want to foster to adopt to avoid the expense and barriers of traditional adoption, then you will be taking care of kids that have a higher likelihood of having challenging behaviors due to their experiences. Which is fine if you're prepared for that, but some people walk into it without fully considering if they can handle it.
Have kid from your and your loved one’s dna, the process of being pregnant and count months for the baby. This all sounds very funny. But in the end, you love your kid not because they are from your dna, but because you accept them as your kid and spend time together.
Adoption in some areas can be incredibly expensive. I’ve known people who adopted and it can easily cost $40k. Raising kids can already be very expensive, but having that much cost up front isn’t realistic for a lot of people. Not to mention the approval and qualifying process for adoption. It’s nice in theory that everyone would just adopt, but the reality of the process prevents that.
Fr I have schizoaffective, I don't care how rare it is, I'm not risking it.
The real problem for your child would be you. Your child would adopt this nasty pessimistic attitude and lead a weak life.
Goteem
Says a lot more about you that you have to resort to this to back up your stance.
Lmao roasted
Please have a kid. Musk and bezos need slaves.
r/antinatalism in disguise.
Seriously. It's painful how many GenZers who you know have never taken a single relevant ethics class in their life are becoming anti-natalists.
How is not being able to have kids in this climate, anti-natalist. They aren’t against having kids they are just saying they can’t afford them
Being antinatalist is the belief that it’s immoral to reproduce because you’re condemning your child to a lifetime of guaranteed suffering
I mean it's controversial, sure, but I don't think that's an outrageous belief
It’s an outrageous belief unless you admit that your life and everyone you have ever known has done nothing but suffer, and never experienced joy. It’s an infantile narcissistic and cynical coping mechanism disguised as a “belief”.
I don't believe antinatalists believe there is no joy in life at all, which simply isnt true. They believe that the amount of suffering in one's life is greater than the amount of joy, and thus that life is not worth living. From a nihilistic perspective it is logically sound if you assume that the amount of suffering in a given life is greater than the joy, which I take to be true.
From a nihilistic perspective suicide can be seen as logically sound.
From many non-nihlistic perspectives there are many times when (assisted) suicide is the saner option. Like there are some who want to live until their terminal disease literally kills them, while many others of us want to die before we become a husk of barely maintained biological processes. Because we have seen how horrible the last stage of Alzheimer's and much else is.
What’s infantile is not even attempting to understand a idea. [Benatar’s asymmetry argument](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benatar%27s_asymmetry_argument)
Yeah, but do you want the infantile narcissists reproducing? It's fine to just let them decide not to have kids.
Yeah I never understand why people want to persuade people to have children because of that kinda thing. Surely some people shouldn't have children, And people who don't want kids have got to be a lot those.
Bringing new conciousness to existance just because you want to give your life meaning and fullfill your biological need to reproduce sounds more narcissistic.
Its not anti-natalists if it is literally a huge financial decision
You act as if it's a lack of education, but antinatalism is not something you can really argue effectively against unless you don't realize the weight of reality. It's kinda right. Same goes for the vegan/vegetarian thing. Which is why it makes people so angry and lash out all weird. Saying this as someone currently doing fertility preservation so I can have kids later and who eats meat every day. Like, just accept that you're not a perfectly good person and you do things simply because you want to and can get away with it in this society move on. Unfortunately most peeps are way too fragile to ever admit to themselves they're not an angel, which is kinda pathetic to me. No humans are perfect angels. Do some shadow work like an adult and get over it.
Explain the ethics part of it..
Antinatalism is the ethical claim that giving birth is always morally wrong. If you look up academic papers on the topic somewhere like Philpapers, or read the Stanford Encyclopedia [summary](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/parenthood/), it will be apparent that the academic consensus is that giving birth is not always morally wrong.
this sub is so irrepresentative of gen z in general like y’all sat in the back of cafeteria watching Minecraft role plays didn’t you
naturally, the people living stable, well-adjusted lives aren't going to be spending significant amounts of time on reddit.
I didn't come here for this blasphemy I watched Minecraft modded let's plays at the back of my cafeteria
It’s not anti-natalist when you can’t afford shit for yourself,knowing your own limits is call being responsible.
People in 3th world country ok let's make our 24th baby even thought we can't even afford food for ourselfs
Shit dude I live in the US in a major city, and one of my coworkers just got pregnant with her *seventh kid* for the sole reason of “I miss dressing up baby girls”. She’s in the same job position as me, and started after I did so I know she’s making the same or less than me, which is barely enough for one kid. No bueno decision making is worldwide with the dummies Edit: yes she has a husband but he has three kids he brought in to the house as well. Between the two of them they have ten kids with another on the way. The older five are not his, so I believe she gets child support for them or they work part time jobs to help with rent. They don’t own a house, so they’re renting which is precarious in this city.
Hmm my logic is inverted from yours. Someone hired to the same position after me would most likely be making more than me. The largest raises in your career come from switching jobs, not staying at one place for a long time.
That’d be the case if the job weren’t an entry level position. And she started two months after me so not really long enough to make much differnece
In most 3rd world countries children are used as an extra source of income. They have laxer child labor laws, so they begin working earlier than most places. Typically families with more children are better off because of this
In most 3rd world countries women don't have a choice how many children they have.
No contraceptives will probably be a factor in that. And on a darker note, isn’t the reason most developing nations have large families is that statistically most of them won’t make it to adulthood?
Actually, it's a good investment because they can put their kids to work. The kids will also support them in old age.
This is shockingly accurate Like, one of my aunt in laws has 15 kids (nearly every kid has different father) and basically lived off my grandparents until my dad/uncles kicked her out (the worst thing is that the government pays her tons of money to help support the kids even though the money rarely goes to them, like at one point some of the dads basically came and forcefully took their kids back after CPS refused to do anything about it) Like, in some areas it kinda makes sense, child mortality rates are still high, they need extra hands to help with the farm etc, that I can understand and makes quite alot of sense. But then there are some people who don't have farms/need farms and just have kid after kid to the point where they are relying on the government for aid, and these types of people don't even take birth control (which is incredibly ironic considering that those big rural families actually take birth control from time to time and actually make the effort to figure out whether or not having another kid could benefit them) tl;dr the idea of having a large family is still very prevalent in many 2rd world countries and it doesn't help that most of these families refuse to use contraception. Oh and some of the wife's that get married/start having kids **are as young as 10 years old**
FYI the second world was the communist Soviet Union and China and their proxies. The first world is liberal republics and democracies(Western Civilization) the third world was everyone else(developing nations).
The kids continue to live with them and sustain them as they grow old.
If people had children during the plague in 1300s europe or during world war II or during the glacial cooling event that nearly wiped out humanity, I’m sure you can have children in the 21st century. I’m so tired of this generation thinking they’re exceptional in facing existential threats.
I agree completely. Only people who want kids should have them and no harm if people don’t, but people have faced crises since before we even evolved into Homo sapiens. We are not unique in having struggles and difficulties, but humans have always risen to the challenge. I have hope we’ll tackle climate change.
I think it’s more specifically the type of person who spends multiple hours a day on reddit or social media rather than going outside and experiencing the world that think like this. The concentration of doomers online, and especially on teenager/younger subs like this, is way higher than it actually is irl. Social media is just a cesspool of extreme takes and pessimism, because that’s what gets clicks.
Generation Alpha is half the size of almost every previous generation. That means that half of all adults (in the US) who would normally have had children, did not. Thats an incredibly widespread phenomenon that speaks to a much larger issue than just "internet bad" or "teen doomers". Something is broken and needs to be fixed, now. People don't realize it yet, but having even a single generation be half as large as the ones before it will cause extremely hard to reverse changes in our society. Just look at South Korea, they're looking at an almost complete population collapse within a single generation.
My great grandparents were alive for the Great Depression, WW2, polio epidemic, and narrowly missed being born during the time of the Spanish flu. There were so many to her horrible things happening at that time as well, but people kept on and still lived their lives. I get that having kids isn’t for everyone, and that’s fine, but I hate this mindset that we’re living in the worst time in history and should just give up.
Exactly. The only difference is that they're chronically online and consuming "news" about every existential threats 24/7.
I’d like to have kids someday
Go for it! To me not having kids is like not voting- totally valid decision, but you will have no influence on what the future of the world will look like several generations from now.
That’s pretty ridiculous. There are plenty of ways to influence the future that don’t involve having your own kids. And just because someone has kids doesn’t mean they or their progeny are influencing the future in any meaningful way. Just to drive home the silliness: some of the most influential thinkers to ever exist didn't have children. Plato, Newton, Locke, Hobbes, Kant, Hume, Adam Smith, Simone de Beauvoir, Descartes, Spinoza, Leibniz, Simone Weil, Iris Murdoch, Schopenhauer, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, etc, etc, didn't have kids yet influenced the world more than most parents could ever dream to. Not to mention teachers/professors, politicians, and any of the myriad of ways one can influence the world or make it a better place beyond having biological children. It's nothing like "not voting."
I know this is a meme but honestly this generation really needs to stop victimizing itself. I can assure you that you live better than 99% of people that have ever lived, stop complaining 24/7. (I am a gen Z myself). Edit: no, I am not saying that we should not try to improve things for us and the next generation, BUT a lot of times a perspective on the macro situation is necessary, which is something that I see lacking a lot in younger generations perception of reality.
You're aware that we're living through a scientifically recognized mass extinction event? "But we still have a power grid and fast food for ten more years!" Genius take.
Dude, stop with the doomsday paranoia. No, we're not going anywhere. Yes, life and society as we know it are bound to change, our lifestyle in the future will be drastically different than today's, but we're not getting extinct any time soon.
No, we're probably not, unless WWIII. But what seems absolutely certain to me is that a time of great struggle is comming again
Even WW3 would not destroy the entire human population. I doubt anyone is going to nuke Africa or South America even if things went crazy.
We have enough nukes to destroy life on earth 55 times over
We do not. If we detonated every nuke in existence, some life would still survive. Life is good at staying alive.
Nuke passcodes aren’t in the hands of a single person. People aren’t dumb enough to destroy the whole Earth.
!remindme 10 years
People also arent dumb enough to deny vaccines, or believe the world is flat, or dumb enough to believe mythical texts written thousands of years ago to be 100% true. Get real, we are definetly stupid enough to destroy ourselves. WW2 was 10 times worse than WW1. How bad would a third one be? Only takes a single nuke to kickstart the last conflict ever. And we have thousands.
Seriously, the "the world will literally end and all life on earth will be exterminated by climate change within our/our childrens' lifetimes" does nothing but hurt the credibility of the movement. Hyperbole and sensationalism hardly ever convinces anyone but the gullible, and can be pointed to by opponents when the wild doomsday predictions don't come to pass as a sign that it was all bunk. If people think human caused climate change is anywhere near the level of something like the Oxygen Catastrophe they're delusional.
Shhh… let them be. If a bunch of chronically online losers somehow get it in their heads that they shouldn’t start families, then the next generation won’t have any more chronically online losers. It’s a win-win.
That's not how it work
That literally isn't their take.
Just because we have social media and internet everywhere doesn’t mean it’s a good world to raise kids. You realize even 50 years ago a family with 5 kids could live comfortably while affording a house, food, entertainment, and education all on a single blue collar salary with a stay at home mom. There’s literally no way anyone in America can do that now and be happy. This is coming from a gen z that makes 6 figures who might have 1-2 kids with the right person. Gen z isn’t victimizing themselves they are the victims of a world that they had no control over creating and have to live through the consequences of actions of people who will be dead before they even see the results of their choices
This 100 times over. Don’t have kids if you don’t want - that’s your choice. The idea that we live in uniquely doomed times though is so egotistical - especially when the times we live are objectively the best times to live anywhere in the world.
“Other people had it worse, so deal with it.”
It’s hard though. Coming from the societal wealth of the 1990s and 2000s and seeing our living standards get worse every year is more depressing than living in poverty but seeing things get better every year. A poor person who sees their lives getting better every year is hopeful and optimistic of the future. A formerly wealthy person (western middle class) who sees their standard of living degrade for 20 years is not someone who thinks things will get better. Yes in world history we have it the 4th best in history (boomers had it the best and it’s been declining since) however the fact it’s been declining is why we are so depressed
Us living "better" than 99% of people is PRECISELY the problem. Everyone has a phone=Lithium mines. AC+can drive fly anywhere in the world=global warming What you said is irrelevant
The point of this post isn’t that we have it worse or better it’s that we are literally on a dying planet. The generation below us is in for a very very rough environment in the future. Your point about how people had it worst in the past is not relevant to the fact that it’s probably gonna be way worse in 100 years
Peak unfounded doomerism
Hell no let's go extinct
Look at your fellow humans. They will not let it all turn to dust. It will be torture before death. Life is a bunch of pinpricks and humanity will just gobble it up and not care for the pain it will make others go through...all in the name of progress and money.
You should only have kids when you're ready. Financially stable, and can provide all the love and support they need. Don't just have kids for the sake of having kids
The problem is most people do the complete opposite of this
Why do u guys always talk about “we” as if u not having kids is in any way going to influence my decision and we’re a monolith or something? I don’t plan to whine like a little bitch about how much the world sucks for the rest of my life. Personally I was raised to take responsibility. Not only for my children but for my role in the world they grow up in and how they grow up in it. But if u can’t handle that pressure then hell yea u should stay away from having kids. That’s common sense/natural selection.
in the words of heavenly: "WHO IS WE? YOU SPEAKIN FRENCH?"
preach champ 🫡
Pros of having a child: Get to pass on name that me and 4 other generations have (50% chance) Kids are cute Cons of having a child: I don’t want to pass on any mental issues that goes in my family Pregnancy sounds awful Climate change Might be future Ted Bundy Expensive Kids are annoying
Lmao I’m childfree for many of these reasons.
I would hope someone born in 2004 is childfree. Your ass has NO ASSETS let alone the finances for a kid
As you should be. No way any 20 year old should be having kids😂 My wife and I are having our first child (28 and 27) but we spent all of last year financially planning for it as best as we can. We make 6 figures together and have stability in our careers and finances. For us, that was a goal we set out to accomplish together. I get it may sound crazy to some, but we both wanted to have kids together but agreed we’d wait h til we were ready.
Ok, climate change is imo not a reason to not have kids. People had kids during the black death, your kids will be fine. The larger problem is more about how there is no incentive to have kids.
The Black Death wasn’t the whole fucking planet dying 🤦 If science is at all correct, shits gonna really hit the fan within the next 50 years and the planet will forever be changed. Also can I get a source on this “your kids will be fine” do you know something we don’t about the future?
Climate change isn't "the whole planet dying".
It’s the whole planet eventually becoming unlivable. I’m not saying this is gonna happen in our lifetime but it will affect future generations. It’s concerning how unbothered by climate change this sub is for it literally being a gen z sub
Life has recovered from several mass extinctions. Even if 99% of species die out in a few million years life will be thriving again. And with humans we have the technology to fix our mistakes, or at least build infrastructure to survive in a more hostile climate. We're not going extinct. Billions might die if shit truly hits the fan, however the species will survive.
The Black Death killed about 20% of the Earths population at the time. A much much greater proportion of the population than climate change will ever kill. Also People have been saying for 50 years “we only got 10 years left” “20 years and we’re going to lose coastal cities” “30 years before global drought” and this dumb nonsense that’s not even backed by proper science. It’s all Hysteria.
As I matured, I've grown into the mindset of Team No-kids but if I ever got myself into a position where I had more than enough resources for myself and I was mentally ready for a 10-15+ year commitment (lifelong parental relationship as well), I would absolutely adopt in hopes of actually being able to provide a good quality if life for a child to prosper. Currently I would see a child as a massive burden as I wouldn't be in a position to commit radical actions due to negative consequences altering an innocent person's life. IE: Shit in America hits the fan and the violent maga cultists with their RWDS's need to be met with equal/greater force.
I'll probably have kids when I not only get a wife (impossible) but if I'm financially stable enough to have one.
God please don't rile up the antinatilists
[удалено]
>Doomposting Repetitive, unoriginal, exaggerated, boring, cringe
I’m 19 and I love kids and want to have my own kids too but… idk the world seems really messed up
Lmao now imagine what people had to endure a few centuries ago or hell even less, and yet they still procreated...
And what people still do face in developing countries, yet they are still procreating
This is a really shit post
It's a really shit subreddit
it's a really shit social media app
You don’t think Boomers worried about the first atomic bomb actually being dropped, total global war, mass killings by Hitler and Stalin, etc? Yet they made more babies than ever in history. Worries are nothing new.
Why did any generation before have kids then? By this logic, everyone would have just hidden in his cave and complaines about those wild animals being so mean, the weather being so hostile and food being so difficult to find. Then humans would have been extinct already 100,000 years ago. I mean, you can have babies or not, it's your freedom. I know many people who don't have kids for various reasons. Some reasons "make sense", some are honest about just not wanting to take responsibilities and rather enjoy their near unlimited personal freedoms which no other generation had before. **It's also ok to not have a reason at all!** But please, just stop pretending that it's all someone else's fault and finally stop being crybabies! No other generation had such a high standard of living, quality of life and life expectancy. Live your life they way YOU want, it's ok. But don't always victimise yourself when you are incredibly priviledged.
just ignore the world and focus on how happy you will be to have kids - the people profiting from the end of everything
I feel like they left out a lot of important topics like global conflict and micro plastics and extreme price gouging
Honestly, my opinion is just have kids if you want them (make sure your legitimately prepared to raise them though.)
No, give up and roll over. Literally every generation of civilized humans has thought the world was ending during their lifetimes.
do young people not realize that murder is lower now than it had been for decades? That air and water is cleaner THAN EVER (since the industrial revolution), that "childcare" was always for rich people, that retirement is different today because people live longer and work longer - summers have ALWAYS been hot, housing has never been cheap (not decent housing) - you labor under this fantasy THAT HAS NEVER EXISTED
Climate change is real
Not having kids will literally make it worse lol.
Yes. Have kids. This is the best it’s ever been. You’re being lied to about the world.
IM GONNA HAVE KIDSS OR ATLEAST TRYIF I AM INFERTILE THAT WOULD BE AWFUL. I also i am trying to get into the navy cause thats the only way I think I can afford to get a house anytime soon , I ALSO WANNA RUN A NUCLEAR REACTOR this economy sucks ass. It could be worse but man it could be better
You can adopt if youre infertile that would be same
WHY ARE YOU YELLING
You should only have them if you can financially afford them.
Yeah. I’m becoming to be a father and I’m absolutely into it despite the uncertainties. But you do you.
kids make life bearable, quite ironic considering how unbearable they can be sometimes
Nah. Just F*ck for fun... Now, Congress has made abortion and contraception illegal... * Ok help me raise my kid... America: All kids now able to work. Right to work laws increased. Unions crushed.
This post is hilarious
Based on the declining birthrate, this is quite a common question
I’m married at 21 and we are having a baby when I hit 500k in networth (currently 110k)
We're not supposed to do anything, but if you're financially, physically, and mentally ready, then go ahead and have kids
So much doomerism in this sub. Our ancestors faced far tougher battles without modern luxuries and still had children. If you don't want kids, fine. But someone's gotta do it. Just incredible how the people in this sub fail to understand how lucky they are to be alive at this moment in human history. Not saying the future will be perfect or free of the problems mentioned in the meme, but you lot really need to appreciate what you have more.