"But I'm a Gilmore" People on here go so freaking mad about this line. As far as Rory is aware her grandparents are crazy wealthy and super well respected in high society social circles. She went to a prestigious Prep school, she goes to Yale, she had a coming out party and she can hold an intelligent conversation about the art hanging in their house. On paper she has done all of these things and has all of these qualifications that would seem like a good match for Logan and they looked at her like she was absolute TRASH that he just picked up from some seedy truck stop. Like what else would I need to do to be considered a good partner for your son?! I think it was a big culture shock to her to the levels of wealth and snobbery and I think she was reasonably baffled at that interaction.
This! People here hold that up as an example of her “entitlement” like she said that in response to a job rejection or something. She brought up her pedigree because her pedigree was what was being questioned. It always bothers me that a lot of the times when people condemn Rory for being a snob or entitled, they’re actually upholding the Huntzbergers’ much bigger and more toxic snobbery and it becomes more like, how dare Rory think she’s good enough to fit in with them. I feel the same way about people celebrate Logan “calling out Rory’s privilege.” 🙄
I fully agree w your first part but I’m confused about your last bit - I think Logan calling Rory out for writing a harsh article about privileged rich kids was called for, bc Rory didnt recognize/ embrace her own privilege at that point in her life. She kind of concedes that point when apologizing to Logan for the article
Logan was calling out her lack of class loyalty and pushing against Rory’s realization that she didn’t really like the ultra-rich lifestyle or people (who happened to be everyone Logan knew). There’s no rule that you can’t satirize people of your own social class, and I would guess that most satire writers *are* writing about a culture they know and have seen firsthand.
I would also argue that, yeah, Rory was privileged, but the people at that party were mega-wealthy even beyond the level of Richard and Emily. Rory was incredibly privileged to have a (normal, not luxury) car paid for, and her education paid for, and a house to return to if she needed it. The people she wrote about owned multiple yachts and were building villas on tropical islands. They were living the Huntzberger lifestyle, not a lifestyle anything like Rory’s experience. Logan was acting like he and Rory had had equal experiences and that she was out of line to mock that lifestyle, because he felt singled out by her (apparently super mean) piece. Rory had broken an unspoken rule that rich people are supposed to close ranks.
Yes, this!! She says it as she’s in shock after just being verbally dog piled on by Logan’s family. She’s not stomping her feet and screaming “I’m a Gilmore!!”, she’s confused how her super rich grandparents aren’t considered rich enough for Logan’s family. Nothing more nothing less.
Plus, the Huntzbergers are the kind of family that (almost always) only care about someone’s last name when deciding if they’re worthy of respect or not. Rory was shocked that even though her last name is undoubtedly prestigious, his family still looked down on her. She was understandably very confused, because she didn’t know what they wanted from her.
And let’s not forget that her grandmother has been in her ear to date these kinds of guys since she was like 15. So she’s 21 now and she finally dates the guy from her circle and she’s not good enough? It makes no sense, especially considering everything that she accomplished.
Seconded! I think they had to include a line like that, because if not the audience would be confused. They've shown Rory's family as so wealthy and privileged, it wouldn't make sense to suddenly treat her like white trash and have it make sense to her.
Luke throwing people out of the diner when he's upset over his break up with Lorelai. Now I think most people don't take this seriously as it's not supposed to be, but some people do. Actually, I just saw a post about it today.
literally tho, and paying him for it was funny. he didn’t have to take the 20 bucks, but if the weird hyperfocused girl was gonna give you 20 bucks to sit next to a tree, wouldn’t you take it too?
Yes! And Lorelai even calls her out for this, and says how shes in college now and shes not gonna always have it her way. (Or something to that effect.) In the end, she knew she wasnt entilted to it and bribed the guy. (Which I find pretty funny)
Honestly, I always saw it that way and was really surprised by the hate she gets for the scene. She's slowly starting to feel overwhelmed by her workload at Yale and (more or less subconsciously) tried to avoid studying by not being able to find the right place for it. The same Rory, who was casually focused on reading during fist fights and at parties? Sure, no right place.
😂
Yeah…I thought it was stupid.
Doesn’t upset me per se but how many study nooks & libraries does Yale have?
I remember watching it like “Rory you’re a smart girl, is that seriously your best option?” Lol
Just because another nook exists, doesn’t mean it feels right. She was new to Yale, and so she needed a place that felt comfortable in order to help her adjust to the new environment.
Fran’s funeral. It’s meant to be funny and *absurd* and that’s how it comes off, and people are trying to apply real-life morality and social etiquette to it.
Stan’s legit makes me emotional! He was a bad guy and Luke knows he was a bad guy, but he’s trying to do the right thing, and Lorelai really shows up for him. The casket scene always has me rolling tho
This is what I came to say. So many people say what bad acting it was.... It was supposed to be bad, to make us laugh, almost in the exact same spirit as the comically sized bag of chips that Doyle was eating from.
Can we at least agree that maybe a therapist office isn’t the setting for that type of comedy? Like therapy already gets a bad reputation, it doesn’t need scenes like that one.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but “He was my Dean first.” Rory was desperately grasping for *any* justification to give to Lorelai during their fight, and I really don’t think she truly believed that she had claim to him because she dated him first. Rory definitely had some “not like other girls” thinking about how Lindsay wasn’t good for Dean before that affair started, but “he was mine first” was just a throwaway phrase uttered in anger and desperation- not an admission that she felt entitled to him forever.
She knew that she messed up and didn’t want to admit it, because the deed was done and there was no going back. So, she said whatever she could to attempt to justify it to herself.
Rory was also so confused and messed up because of Jess' love confession and runaway proposal. And Dean also lied about his marriage being so good as over.
I think there are a lot of things that are taken seriously now that were not meant to be taken that seriously at the time.
That's not to say that we're wrong to take them seriously now, but that I think we have to keep them in mind when looking at overall character arcs and the way the show handles situations.
The example that immediately springs to mind is the scene in Kyle's bedroom. Our understanding of consent is so vastly different now than it was back then. That scene would not have been viewed as assault back then and when it was written, it likely wasn't seen as anything more than a way to start an argument between Jess and Rory.
Again, that's not to say it's wrong to view this scene and other scenes like this with a more critical eye, but just to say that the intention behind them was likely not as serious as its now understood to be. I don't think ASP ever intended for Jess to be perceived as a predator, even though that is how he is interpreted now.
Another example of this is people saying that Mrs. Kim is a terrible mother. It’s a dramedy people, and Mrs. Kim was written to be exaggerated and over the top because it’s funny, that’s all.
Yeah Kyle's bedroom scene was the first one that came to mind for me too, as someone who was a teenager in the mid-noughties it really was just typical behaviour and not written to be an assault scene. It's not wrong to view it with a different lens now, but as you say consent wasn't viewed in the same way then (see any pre 00s Bond movie, "Baby it's Cold Outside" lyrics etc). I think people who watch that scene now without the context of the time miss a bit of nuance though.
Exactly. I'm a bit younger than Rory, but when I was in high school you were considered a bad person/girlfriend if you didn't have sex with your boyfriend when he wanted to (there's a Party of Five storyline about that actually, iirc.) The idea that you could be assaulted by your partner straight up did not exist.
That's not to say that the scene isn't supposed to portray Jess negatively or that he wasn't supposed to be viewed in the wrong - he absolutely was. But that this would not have been taken as a hugely negative thing, while it definitely is today.
I think this is exactly it! I've always thought he was being a jerk and was pushy during that scene, but I wouldn't go so far as assault. I've seen people say if Rory didn't push him off he would have raped her??? No way, that was not Jess's character at all.
pretty sure you knew your boyfriend couldn't just force you in the 90s, i dunno where you're from. that jess thing wouldn't be how it happened if it was called assault though. I'm not sure it is now, being pushy and upsetting you then stopping. if it continued it would be some sort of ongoing abuse now. oh yeah coercive control, that's what it's called.
I think an important part of that scene is Rory’s reaction. She didn’t feel as though she’d been SA’d, so we didn’t treat Jess as someone who done that. They’d had a fair amount of time as a couple and we saw very little of their intimate moments so we really don’t know how they did things.
She and he were having different issues and those were what we were supposed to pay attention to, because that’s what the writers were using that scene for.
Yes, after he yelled at her for bothering him when he wanted to be alone at a party he didn’t want to go to. Her reaction to him trying to go too far was disbelief that he thought that was an appropriate time and place, not that he was sexually assaulting her.
If she’d gotten up and yelled at him about that or ran out of the room in fear or showed anything to make us think he took liberties, I’d have no problem seeing it that way.
I guess I consider it more to be bad writing and less to be SA on the part of Jess. Similar to Jackson’s vasectomy.
Oof, this one is tough. I’m generally not someone who looks back at media with that much retrospective scrutiny, and I don’t put our modern day lens on every plot line bc I think we’d end up hating every character if we did (cue everyone ragging on FRIENDS and Ross these days).
But while I don’t think that scene needs to be interpreted as “assault”, I think it a very uncomfortable scene and is problematic in one way or another, that speaks to Jess not being a great bf for Rory. I totally get he was in a bad headspace and maybe it wasn’t his intent to come off as pushy about getting physical, but objectively… he did push lol and it wasn’t the best way to approach their first time, esp not with someone like Rory. He was a v moody teen w duff priorities, who wasn’t ready for a proper relationship and I think that’s precisely why I don’t think him/Rory aligned in the way everyone else seems to think they do
I think this is especially true bc two seasons later we have Logan sleeping w Rory and despite Logan being a fuckboy/player, he actually very sweetly asks for Rory’s “consent”. So it’s not like the writers aren’t aware of how to properly write a scene like that without it veering into assault territory lol. And I really don’t say this as a way to prop up Logan bc imo when Logan’s in a bad mood, he too can be aggressive/problematic etc.
Oh absolutely. I'm not saying Jess is innocent in that scene - he definitely is not. He was pushy and he lashed out at her, and it was unfair. It's an uncomfortable scene, and I do think it is meant to be uncomfortable, it just isn't intended to be read as badly as it now comes across.
I've seen new viewers say that Jess is a would-be rapist, and not understand why people are still fans of his, or how anyone can root for him after that scene. And that's really what I was thinking of when I wrote the comment. Because this kind of scene is something that now, would be written to identify a character as bad, when it absolutely wasn't back then.
Ah okay, I understand. I hadn’t realized people were using that scene to “cancel” Jess, bc he still seems to have the largest fan base. I agree that it wasn’t written to come across that way (ie as assault), but is still overall problematic and speaks to how troubled Jess was
I get where you’re coming from, but I just can’t agree. I watched the episode maybe a year after it came out on dvd when I was 25 or so and I definitely saw it as borderline assault. Even back then. It’s not assault legally, but it’s pretty close.
Omg basically every joke. This show hits hard because it weaves emotional moments into all the silliness but at its core, it’s a whimsical comedy and just not that serious.
Virtually every time someone argues on this sub about things, I want to just comment and say “if it wasn’t there, it wouldn’t be the whimsical comedy we know to love.”
That's exactly what it was. She was so lost and confused. Logan was too close to the problem and Lorelai wouldn't listen to her needs. She was desperate
Based on the other thread: Apparently Dean talking to Lorelai when Rory was already starting to fall for Jess.
My one is where Rory talks to the Priest about giving her flower or whatever away lol. People are so up in arms about how it’s not Logan who took her virginity. I think everyone’s reading into it too literally like come on, we know, Rory knows, the writers know it was Dean. She just meant *right now*
Hm, I thought it was odd, not what we all know, but that she told Logan that “now you have it” (the ultimate gift) and she’ll have to give the next guy a sweater. Which is definitely not what was said during the conversation with the priest, wherein Logan would be the guy getting the sweater, because only one guy can get “the gift”. I don’t think it’s totally crazy to think that she didn’t tell Logan that she lost her virginity with her married ex boyfriend.
I didn’t even realize people were going so far as to presume she and Logan didn’t already talk about it? I’m sure Logan would know she’s not a virgin, like that would come up during their first time AND Logan was around for part of the Dean relationship.
The show just doesn’t talk about sex explicitly so it’s all kind of implied or handled off screen.
'I got the good kid'. There's a thread about it from yesterday (or the day before?) and some good points there about how it shouldn't be taken so seriously. But I don't see it as slut shaming and other stuff many people tend to interpret it. Lorelai just wants so much more for Rory than she had and has the constant worry in the back of our head that something will mess it up, and I get that. They also have this agreement that Rory will tell her when she's about to have sex for the first time, and in that scene she was probably terrified of finding out that maybe Rory didn't hold that promise. I have a daughter myself now and now I get that line/worry even more, although I agree that it's a bit misleading and I don't think you're a bad kid for losing your virginity at 17/18 lol.
This! Honestly, I didn't even see it as a response to the sex thing. I always took it as Lorelai being proud of her kid and her maturity. Rory tells Paris "It might not be the right time for me, but it can be for you. Only you can decide that for yourself." That's EXTREMELY mature, especially for a teenager.
THIS!! God I don’t even have kids just a bunch of nieces and nephews and I worry about them. It’s not slut shaming it’s knowing that it’s a big decision and it brings a TON of consequences.
There’s a mention of that line every damn day here. And it’s amazing how rarely anyone mentions that like 20 minutes earlier they had the conversation about Rory telling her about it and they throw out 7 other seasons of data about how Lorelei views the world and assume she thinks 17 year olds shouldn’t have sex.
I think it was out of character for Lorelai to even imply that Paris wasn’t the “good kid” because she had sex. Lauren Graham has even been quoted saying that she hated that line and didn’t feel like Lorelai would say something like that.
I think if the line was “I’ve got a good kid” and not “the good kid” it would’ve been soooo much better. I agree with the OP that I don’t think Lorelai is slut-shaming Paris based off the context of Lorelai’s views in the show in general, but it does feel out of character for Lorelai and using “the” automatically makes Paris “the bad kid.”
When my daughter was a teenager she decided to take a purity pledge until marriage. We are not religious but she just felt that this was important to her. I felt nothing but relief to be honest. She didn’t end up waiting for marriage but she did wait until college. I wish I had done something similar. I got the good kid actually means a lot to me and I never considered it slut shaming.
Lol, agreed. I don’t get why people are so up in arms about it. It’s just supposed to be a joke and show the chaos of having young kids. What’s the deal?
Yeah they forget two important things in that situation. 1) Sookie TOLD Jackson he was getting a vasectomy and arranged a male nurse to escort him to the procedure room. It wasn’t a conversation where he consented to getting it, she just told him to. He should’ve pushed back obviously and told her he didn’t go through with it. That leads to 2) he wasn’t trying to get her pregnant. He thought she was on the birth control pill still because it helps her regulate (I forget exactly what they said she uses it to help with). She never told him she went off of birth control, because she thought he had a vasectomy.
It really came down to a miscommunication on both parties. Obviously the fault lies more with Jackson, but Sookie wasn’t perfect in this situation either.
This is a great breakdown! It’s also nuts to think a married couple wouldn’t have this conversation like, “hey did you ever get snipped?” “Nope are you on the pill still?” LOL I have one child and decided quickly I was never going through that again and it was a constant conversation with my partner. At the end of the day it’s a show.
And if we’d had a scene instead where Jackson had told Sookie SHE had to get her tubes tied and arranged for her to get it done without her consent, or hell, input, he would be flayed in this sub. And rightfully so. But because she did it to him, it rarely gets mentioned.
I’m with you haha. I think it’s a funny scene and I was surprised to see that so many people dislike it. (It’s fine that they do, just wasn’t expecting it!)
Yes! Just watched this episode today and it really came off like a mom in a bit of an awkward position trying to put Dean at ease. I took it as a lighthearted joke just meaning they can still be friendly around the town.
Then say that. “We didn’t break up” is an entirely different thing. It shows how Lorelai is emotionally still 16 and is crushing on Dean as a substitute Christopher.
Lmaooo love this response. Yeah, like on one hand I’m ngl, j always thought Lauren and Jared had more chemistry than him and Alexis but that’s beside the point, the scene was meant to be written as a sweet reassurance type of scene where they’d all become a unit and Lor wants Dean to know she’s open and wants to still be friendly, and it’s nice bc he’s a teenager who will likely be bottling shit up (from her perspective)
No, you are arguing with someone who has a different opinion than yours, which is so weird because the OP is asking for opinions on subjects/scenes *specifically because* there is disagreement in interpretation. You aren’t giving any explanation or evidence of why you interpret the line differently, you just keep posting antagonistic comments with zero substance.
Lmao I’ll never get why people get SO. MAD. About this one. It’s funny!! If Lorelai and Luke don’t know him either, he clearly wasn’t around much and they weren’t that serious. It’s not like Rory married the guy.
Not gonna lie. I got kinda mad seeing this here 😅 I can be sensitive to cheating because it’s happened to me and I’m very morally opposed to it. So I have a very visceral reaction to Rory and the whole Paul thing. A lot of the time our opinions about TV shows are heavily influenced by personal experiences.
My issue with this scene is more the stupidity of the *writers*. Its gross they couldn't come up with a better plot-line that didn't involve throwing Jackson under the bus. "The vacetomy failed" or "Jackson didn't realize you need follow-up testing" was RIGHT THERE but instead they made him into an asshole.
I do disagree that it wasn't a source of drama. Sookie has a lot of the emotions I would expect her to have about the situation. Of course they're written away quickly but the source emotions are there. Its messy writing, but there was a lot of that in season 7.
Dean's "I'm not mad, I'm a saint, but I'm not mad." Poor dude just wanted to hook up on the night his girlfriend's mom was out of town, but half this sub thinks it makes him aBusIVe aND cONtroLLiNg
Fully agree that him showing up uninvited is out of line. But before that? Hearing your girlfriend is more excited to do laundry than make out with you? Ouch.
“I got the good kid” I’ve gotten the notification abt this line 4 different times this week from different people it’s getting on my nerves. It’s not a bad line and it makes sense for the situation lorelai was listening into
"But I'm a Gilmore" People on here go so freaking mad about this line. As far as Rory is aware her grandparents are crazy wealthy and super well respected in high society social circles. She went to a prestigious Prep school, she goes to Yale, she had a coming out party and she can hold an intelligent conversation about the art hanging in their house. On paper she has done all of these things and has all of these qualifications that would seem like a good match for Logan and they looked at her like she was absolute TRASH that he just picked up from some seedy truck stop. Like what else would I need to do to be considered a good partner for your son?! I think it was a big culture shock to her to the levels of wealth and snobbery and I think she was reasonably baffled at that interaction.
This! People here hold that up as an example of her “entitlement” like she said that in response to a job rejection or something. She brought up her pedigree because her pedigree was what was being questioned. It always bothers me that a lot of the times when people condemn Rory for being a snob or entitled, they’re actually upholding the Huntzbergers’ much bigger and more toxic snobbery and it becomes more like, how dare Rory think she’s good enough to fit in with them. I feel the same way about people celebrate Logan “calling out Rory’s privilege.” 🙄
This is so perfectly articulated!
I fully agree w your first part but I’m confused about your last bit - I think Logan calling Rory out for writing a harsh article about privileged rich kids was called for, bc Rory didnt recognize/ embrace her own privilege at that point in her life. She kind of concedes that point when apologizing to Logan for the article
Logan was calling out her lack of class loyalty and pushing against Rory’s realization that she didn’t really like the ultra-rich lifestyle or people (who happened to be everyone Logan knew). There’s no rule that you can’t satirize people of your own social class, and I would guess that most satire writers *are* writing about a culture they know and have seen firsthand. I would also argue that, yeah, Rory was privileged, but the people at that party were mega-wealthy even beyond the level of Richard and Emily. Rory was incredibly privileged to have a (normal, not luxury) car paid for, and her education paid for, and a house to return to if she needed it. The people she wrote about owned multiple yachts and were building villas on tropical islands. They were living the Huntzberger lifestyle, not a lifestyle anything like Rory’s experience. Logan was acting like he and Rory had had equal experiences and that she was out of line to mock that lifestyle, because he felt singled out by her (apparently super mean) piece. Rory had broken an unspoken rule that rich people are supposed to close ranks.
Yes, this!! She says it as she’s in shock after just being verbally dog piled on by Logan’s family. She’s not stomping her feet and screaming “I’m a Gilmore!!”, she’s confused how her super rich grandparents aren’t considered rich enough for Logan’s family. Nothing more nothing less.
Plus, the Huntzbergers are the kind of family that (almost always) only care about someone’s last name when deciding if they’re worthy of respect or not. Rory was shocked that even though her last name is undoubtedly prestigious, his family still looked down on her. She was understandably very confused, because she didn’t know what they wanted from her.
And let’s not forget that her grandmother has been in her ear to date these kinds of guys since she was like 15. So she’s 21 now and she finally dates the guy from her circle and she’s not good enough? It makes no sense, especially considering everything that she accomplished.
This!!!!! Regardless of your background, most people would be livid if they were treated like that by their partner's family.
Seconded! I think they had to include a line like that, because if not the audience would be confused. They've shown Rory's family as so wealthy and privileged, it wouldn't make sense to suddenly treat her like white trash and have it make sense to her.
Luke throwing people out of the diner when he's upset over his break up with Lorelai. Now I think most people don't take this seriously as it's not supposed to be, but some people do. Actually, I just saw a post about it today.
It’s a very ‘Uncle Phil’ action from Fresh Prince. He was always throwing Jazz (and others) out of the house. It was a common sitcom gag at the time.
My son under the age of ten cackles at this episode. Haha
the damn study tree! & how it apparently proves that rory is spoilt and selfish 😂
literally tho, and paying him for it was funny. he didn’t have to take the 20 bucks, but if the weird hyperfocused girl was gonna give you 20 bucks to sit next to a tree, wouldn’t you take it too?
I get annoyed when someone parks in “my” parking spot at work so I def get this. I know it isn’t mine but damn anyone that dares take it
I get to hot yoga class 20 minutes early bc it enrages me when someone takes my (completely unassigned) spot lmao
What is hot yoga? I’m picturing yoga in a sauna.
Haha kinda! It’s yoga in a room kept at about 95 degrees F
Oh man, I could not deal with that lol. I hate heat so much. I’d imagine it’s pretty good for you though.
i get annoyed when the neighbour hood kids play in my official unofficial garden spot, cause how dare they lol
Yes! And Lorelai even calls her out for this, and says how shes in college now and shes not gonna always have it her way. (Or something to that effect.) In the end, she knew she wasnt entilted to it and bribed the guy. (Which I find pretty funny)
That one just bugs be because there’s no way on earth that is a comfortable place to sit for more than 20 minutes.
Ikr, to me it felt like she didn’t want to study and was making it the tree guy’s fault
Honestly, I always saw it that way and was really surprised by the hate she gets for the scene. She's slowly starting to feel overwhelmed by her workload at Yale and (more or less subconsciously) tried to avoid studying by not being able to find the right place for it. The same Rory, who was casually focused on reading during fist fights and at parties? Sure, no right place.
😂 Yeah…I thought it was stupid. Doesn’t upset me per se but how many study nooks & libraries does Yale have? I remember watching it like “Rory you’re a smart girl, is that seriously your best option?” Lol
Just because another nook exists, doesn’t mean it feels right. She was new to Yale, and so she needed a place that felt comfortable in order to help her adjust to the new environment.
Fran’s funeral. It’s meant to be funny and *absurd* and that’s how it comes off, and people are trying to apply real-life morality and social etiquette to it.
I think Stans was far worse lol
Stan’s legit makes me emotional! He was a bad guy and Luke knows he was a bad guy, but he’s trying to do the right thing, and Lorelai really shows up for him. The casket scene always has me rolling tho
Lmao Louies was a good one too! Luke going on and on abt the basebalk cards gets me too
Omg totally mixed those up hahaha. I def meant Louie
Rory at the therapist’s office
This is what I came to say. So many people say what bad acting it was.... It was supposed to be bad, to make us laugh, almost in the exact same spirit as the comically sized bag of chips that Doyle was eating from.
I HATE how the show portrayed therapy in general
I hate the therapy trope in tv shows where they go for one episode
Can we at least agree that maybe a therapist office isn’t the setting for that type of comedy? Like therapy already gets a bad reputation, it doesn’t need scenes like that one.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but “He was my Dean first.” Rory was desperately grasping for *any* justification to give to Lorelai during their fight, and I really don’t think she truly believed that she had claim to him because she dated him first. Rory definitely had some “not like other girls” thinking about how Lindsay wasn’t good for Dean before that affair started, but “he was mine first” was just a throwaway phrase uttered in anger and desperation- not an admission that she felt entitled to him forever.
Yes!! Thank you!!
Thank you!
She knew that she messed up and didn’t want to admit it, because the deed was done and there was no going back. So, she said whatever she could to attempt to justify it to herself.
Rory was also so confused and messed up because of Jess' love confession and runaway proposal. And Dean also lied about his marriage being so good as over.
I think there are a lot of things that are taken seriously now that were not meant to be taken that seriously at the time. That's not to say that we're wrong to take them seriously now, but that I think we have to keep them in mind when looking at overall character arcs and the way the show handles situations. The example that immediately springs to mind is the scene in Kyle's bedroom. Our understanding of consent is so vastly different now than it was back then. That scene would not have been viewed as assault back then and when it was written, it likely wasn't seen as anything more than a way to start an argument between Jess and Rory. Again, that's not to say it's wrong to view this scene and other scenes like this with a more critical eye, but just to say that the intention behind them was likely not as serious as its now understood to be. I don't think ASP ever intended for Jess to be perceived as a predator, even though that is how he is interpreted now.
Another example of this is people saying that Mrs. Kim is a terrible mother. It’s a dramedy people, and Mrs. Kim was written to be exaggerated and over the top because it’s funny, that’s all.
Yeah Kyle's bedroom scene was the first one that came to mind for me too, as someone who was a teenager in the mid-noughties it really was just typical behaviour and not written to be an assault scene. It's not wrong to view it with a different lens now, but as you say consent wasn't viewed in the same way then (see any pre 00s Bond movie, "Baby it's Cold Outside" lyrics etc). I think people who watch that scene now without the context of the time miss a bit of nuance though.
Exactly. I'm a bit younger than Rory, but when I was in high school you were considered a bad person/girlfriend if you didn't have sex with your boyfriend when he wanted to (there's a Party of Five storyline about that actually, iirc.) The idea that you could be assaulted by your partner straight up did not exist. That's not to say that the scene isn't supposed to portray Jess negatively or that he wasn't supposed to be viewed in the wrong - he absolutely was. But that this would not have been taken as a hugely negative thing, while it definitely is today.
Exactly! It was a scene of "well that was shitty behaviour, he was being a jerk" vs "OMG he's a RAPIST"
I think this is exactly it! I've always thought he was being a jerk and was pushy during that scene, but I wouldn't go so far as assault. I've seen people say if Rory didn't push him off he would have raped her??? No way, that was not Jess's character at all.
pretty sure you knew your boyfriend couldn't just force you in the 90s, i dunno where you're from. that jess thing wouldn't be how it happened if it was called assault though. I'm not sure it is now, being pushy and upsetting you then stopping. if it continued it would be some sort of ongoing abuse now. oh yeah coercive control, that's what it's called.
Violent force, yeah we knew that was assault. But coercion? Pressuring you? That kind of stuff was just par for the course.
Holy shit, mid-noughties, I LOVE IT. ❤️
I think an important part of that scene is Rory’s reaction. She didn’t feel as though she’d been SA’d, so we didn’t treat Jess as someone who done that. They’d had a fair amount of time as a couple and we saw very little of their intimate moments so we really don’t know how they did things. She and he were having different issues and those were what we were supposed to pay attention to, because that’s what the writers were using that scene for.
She runs out of the room crying, so that’s not exactly a great reaction
Yes, after he yelled at her for bothering him when he wanted to be alone at a party he didn’t want to go to. Her reaction to him trying to go too far was disbelief that he thought that was an appropriate time and place, not that he was sexually assaulting her. If she’d gotten up and yelled at him about that or ran out of the room in fear or showed anything to make us think he took liberties, I’d have no problem seeing it that way. I guess I consider it more to be bad writing and less to be SA on the part of Jess. Similar to Jackson’s vasectomy.
Oof, this one is tough. I’m generally not someone who looks back at media with that much retrospective scrutiny, and I don’t put our modern day lens on every plot line bc I think we’d end up hating every character if we did (cue everyone ragging on FRIENDS and Ross these days). But while I don’t think that scene needs to be interpreted as “assault”, I think it a very uncomfortable scene and is problematic in one way or another, that speaks to Jess not being a great bf for Rory. I totally get he was in a bad headspace and maybe it wasn’t his intent to come off as pushy about getting physical, but objectively… he did push lol and it wasn’t the best way to approach their first time, esp not with someone like Rory. He was a v moody teen w duff priorities, who wasn’t ready for a proper relationship and I think that’s precisely why I don’t think him/Rory aligned in the way everyone else seems to think they do I think this is especially true bc two seasons later we have Logan sleeping w Rory and despite Logan being a fuckboy/player, he actually very sweetly asks for Rory’s “consent”. So it’s not like the writers aren’t aware of how to properly write a scene like that without it veering into assault territory lol. And I really don’t say this as a way to prop up Logan bc imo when Logan’s in a bad mood, he too can be aggressive/problematic etc.
Oh absolutely. I'm not saying Jess is innocent in that scene - he definitely is not. He was pushy and he lashed out at her, and it was unfair. It's an uncomfortable scene, and I do think it is meant to be uncomfortable, it just isn't intended to be read as badly as it now comes across. I've seen new viewers say that Jess is a would-be rapist, and not understand why people are still fans of his, or how anyone can root for him after that scene. And that's really what I was thinking of when I wrote the comment. Because this kind of scene is something that now, would be written to identify a character as bad, when it absolutely wasn't back then.
Ah okay, I understand. I hadn’t realized people were using that scene to “cancel” Jess, bc he still seems to have the largest fan base. I agree that it wasn’t written to come across that way (ie as assault), but is still overall problematic and speaks to how troubled Jess was
I get where you’re coming from, but I just can’t agree. I watched the episode maybe a year after it came out on dvd when I was 25 or so and I definitely saw it as borderline assault. Even back then. It’s not assault legally, but it’s pretty close.
This post is practically bait to beat this dead horse some more
Omg basically every joke. This show hits hard because it weaves emotional moments into all the silliness but at its core, it’s a whimsical comedy and just not that serious.
Virtually every time someone argues on this sub about things, I want to just comment and say “if it wasn’t there, it wouldn’t be the whimsical comedy we know to love.”
rory crying to richard edit: it is serious but it's read into a lot as manipulation
I always took this scene as Rory crying to her Grandpa cuz she was overwhelmed and fucking up and needed comfort.
That's exactly what it was. She was so lost and confused. Logan was too close to the problem and Lorelai wouldn't listen to her needs. She was desperate
agree
Based on the other thread: Apparently Dean talking to Lorelai when Rory was already starting to fall for Jess. My one is where Rory talks to the Priest about giving her flower or whatever away lol. People are so up in arms about how it’s not Logan who took her virginity. I think everyone’s reading into it too literally like come on, we know, Rory knows, the writers know it was Dean. She just meant *right now*
Hm, I thought it was odd, not what we all know, but that she told Logan that “now you have it” (the ultimate gift) and she’ll have to give the next guy a sweater. Which is definitely not what was said during the conversation with the priest, wherein Logan would be the guy getting the sweater, because only one guy can get “the gift”. I don’t think it’s totally crazy to think that she didn’t tell Logan that she lost her virginity with her married ex boyfriend.
I didn’t even realize people were going so far as to presume she and Logan didn’t already talk about it? I’m sure Logan would know she’s not a virgin, like that would come up during their first time AND Logan was around for part of the Dean relationship. The show just doesn’t talk about sex explicitly so it’s all kind of implied or handled off screen.
'I got the good kid'. There's a thread about it from yesterday (or the day before?) and some good points there about how it shouldn't be taken so seriously. But I don't see it as slut shaming and other stuff many people tend to interpret it. Lorelai just wants so much more for Rory than she had and has the constant worry in the back of our head that something will mess it up, and I get that. They also have this agreement that Rory will tell her when she's about to have sex for the first time, and in that scene she was probably terrified of finding out that maybe Rory didn't hold that promise. I have a daughter myself now and now I get that line/worry even more, although I agree that it's a bit misleading and I don't think you're a bad kid for losing your virginity at 17/18 lol.
This! Honestly, I didn't even see it as a response to the sex thing. I always took it as Lorelai being proud of her kid and her maturity. Rory tells Paris "It might not be the right time for me, but it can be for you. Only you can decide that for yourself." That's EXTREMELY mature, especially for a teenager.
THIS!! God I don’t even have kids just a bunch of nieces and nephews and I worry about them. It’s not slut shaming it’s knowing that it’s a big decision and it brings a TON of consequences.
There’s a mention of that line every damn day here. And it’s amazing how rarely anyone mentions that like 20 minutes earlier they had the conversation about Rory telling her about it and they throw out 7 other seasons of data about how Lorelei views the world and assume she thinks 17 year olds shouldn’t have sex.
There’s a new post about that line on a weekly/monthly basis and it gets soooo annoying!!!
I think it was out of character for Lorelai to even imply that Paris wasn’t the “good kid” because she had sex. Lauren Graham has even been quoted saying that she hated that line and didn’t feel like Lorelai would say something like that.
I think if the line was “I’ve got a good kid” and not “the good kid” it would’ve been soooo much better. I agree with the OP that I don’t think Lorelai is slut-shaming Paris based off the context of Lorelai’s views in the show in general, but it does feel out of character for Lorelai and using “the” automatically makes Paris “the bad kid.”
But Paris is also a fantastic kid. So it’s still a really shitty thing to say.
When my daughter was a teenager she decided to take a purity pledge until marriage. We are not religious but she just felt that this was important to her. I felt nothing but relief to be honest. She didn’t end up waiting for marriage but she did wait until college. I wish I had done something similar. I got the good kid actually means a lot to me and I never considered it slut shaming.
“Turn it down Davey!”
I can’t help but snort every time I read this line in this sub 💀
Lol, agreed. I don’t get why people are so up in arms about it. It’s just supposed to be a joke and show the chaos of having young kids. What’s the deal?
Jackson’s non-vasectomy. It’s just bad writing for frick’s sake. We don’t need to go down a rabbit hole debating consent and sexual assault.
Melissa was pregnant and they needed to find a way to write it in. There’s no other reason for that storyline, besides that one.
right!
This one drives me insane
Yeah they forget two important things in that situation. 1) Sookie TOLD Jackson he was getting a vasectomy and arranged a male nurse to escort him to the procedure room. It wasn’t a conversation where he consented to getting it, she just told him to. He should’ve pushed back obviously and told her he didn’t go through with it. That leads to 2) he wasn’t trying to get her pregnant. He thought she was on the birth control pill still because it helps her regulate (I forget exactly what they said she uses it to help with). She never told him she went off of birth control, because she thought he had a vasectomy. It really came down to a miscommunication on both parties. Obviously the fault lies more with Jackson, but Sookie wasn’t perfect in this situation either.
“It makes her skin glow.”
This is a great breakdown! It’s also nuts to think a married couple wouldn’t have this conversation like, “hey did you ever get snipped?” “Nope are you on the pill still?” LOL I have one child and decided quickly I was never going through that again and it was a constant conversation with my partner. At the end of the day it’s a show.
And if we’d had a scene instead where Jackson had told Sookie SHE had to get her tubes tied and arranged for her to get it done without her consent, or hell, input, he would be flayed in this sub. And rightfully so. But because she did it to him, it rarely gets mentioned.
women suffer more from fertility related things
Please!!!!!!
Sookie and the kids bday party,and panicking about becoming a parent.
Damn near anything written for comedic effect.
Basically any scene with Rory, a lot of people seem to dislike her here.
EVERYTHING! This sub treats Gilmore Girls like “the word of God that can make no mistakes”😅 it’s just a show and we take it way too seriously here.
Sookie-Jackson scene in season 6 when they’re yelling at davey to turn it down.
I think I get a natural sensory overload in that scene. I understand it’s supposed to be funny, but it makes ME want to turn the tv down. Hahaha
Same. The overload of sounds and movement gets me uncomfy. However, that's a me issue, not an issue with the show itself.
Yes! And I recognize that. Thank you for finding my words. Hahahah.
I feel like I’m the only one here who finds that scene hilarious
I’m with you haha. I think it’s a funny scene and I was surprised to see that so many people dislike it. (It’s fine that they do, just wasn’t expecting it!)
I do too! The chaos is so great lol 😆
lorelai’s ‘you and rory may have broken up but we haven’t’
Yes! Just watched this episode today and it really came off like a mom in a bit of an awkward position trying to put Dean at ease. I took it as a lighthearted joke just meaning they can still be friendly around the town.
That one will always be creepy. No mother with any sense of proper boundaries says that.
All it is is Lorelai saying he doesn't have to feel awkward around her.
Then say that. “We didn’t break up” is an entirely different thing. It shows how Lorelai is emotionally still 16 and is crushing on Dean as a substitute Christopher.
Its not that serious
Lmaooo love this response. Yeah, like on one hand I’m ngl, j always thought Lauren and Jared had more chemistry than him and Alexis but that’s beside the point, the scene was meant to be written as a sweet reassurance type of scene where they’d all become a unit and Lor wants Dean to know she’s open and wants to still be friendly, and it’s nice bc he’s a teenager who will likely be bottling shit up (from her perspective)
Of course it’s not. But it *is* a discussion. If you’re not interested, leave the conversation.
Wow, how unnecessarily aggressive. What I'm saying is what Lorelai said isn't serious. So I am having a "discussion".
No, you are arguing with someone who has a different opinion than yours, which is so weird because the OP is asking for opinions on subjects/scenes *specifically because* there is disagreement in interpretation. You aren’t giving any explanation or evidence of why you interpret the line differently, you just keep posting antagonistic comments with zero substance.
I did provide my reasoning. You don't agree with it. I'm not sure what else you're expecting. Its not meant to be a serious comment on Lorelai's part.
Lorelai’s not known for having proper boundaries 😆
Right. That’s why this line is so bad. She’s so hung up on Dean being the perfect boyfriend that she can’t see how inappropriate this is.
Virtually everything to do with Paul in the revival. It was a joke.
Who?
Lmao I’ll never get why people get SO. MAD. About this one. It’s funny!! If Lorelai and Luke don’t know him either, he clearly wasn’t around much and they weren’t that serious. It’s not like Rory married the guy.
Not gonna lie. I got kinda mad seeing this here 😅 I can be sensitive to cheating because it’s happened to me and I’m very morally opposed to it. So I have a very visceral reaction to Rory and the whole Paul thing. A lot of the time our opinions about TV shows are heavily influenced by personal experiences.
It's literally supposed to be funny. It's a dramedy after all. Like, come on, it's not that serious.
THANK you.
[удалено]
My issue with this scene is more the stupidity of the *writers*. Its gross they couldn't come up with a better plot-line that didn't involve throwing Jackson under the bus. "The vacetomy failed" or "Jackson didn't realize you need follow-up testing" was RIGHT THERE but instead they made him into an asshole. I do disagree that it wasn't a source of drama. Sookie has a lot of the emotions I would expect her to have about the situation. Of course they're written away quickly but the source emotions are there. Its messy writing, but there was a lot of that in season 7.
I mean, it was mentioned again, but you’re right.
Great flair!
Dean's "I'm not mad, I'm a saint, but I'm not mad." Poor dude just wanted to hook up on the night his girlfriend's mom was out of town, but half this sub thinks it makes him aBusIVe aND cONtroLLiNg
Him showing up anyway is what it really bothersome I think. And it is kind of a weird line imo. But I see what you mean
Fully agree that him showing up uninvited is out of line. But before that? Hearing your girlfriend is more excited to do laundry than make out with you? Ouch.
THANK YOU
To me it was desperate and pathetic. Not someone who was secure in his relationship would do. But certainly not controlling.
Lorelai talking to Jess after she caught him with beer the first time they meet
Lorelai’s outfit on Rory’s first day. It was supposed to illustrate how out of place she felt.
“I got the good kid” I’ve gotten the notification abt this line 4 different times this week from different people it’s getting on my nerves. It’s not a bad line and it makes sense for the situation lorelai was listening into
The one with Jess and Rory at the party.
Anything to do with Anna 😂😂