It's really shitty timing no matter how they inform them. I'm sure it's not something the players want to be thinking about while trying to perform at the major.
What about RNG and CLG? They are no longer sponsored by LA Renegades and have been roster changes (SPUNG retiring).. I highly doubt koosta is part of their 5 man + 2 subs for CLG...
Rules state you can only swap with 2 subs (who are to be submitteed prior to eleague). I highly doubt CLG submitted koosta as a sub. If they violated an organization name rule - then RNG is DQ. Yet both are in the LCQ.
This is pretty stupid.
The players earned their spot
it doesn't matter the team
what if LG had fired them?
they would also be DQ'd?
most stupid decision ever
I think your partially right but I think it's also a contract issue. They undoubtedly signed their contracts with organizations not players which again relates to what you said but forces the issue
I think it's more an issue with e-sports not understanding how contracts work in the real world. I'm assuming the reasoning for this is based in the language of the contract and ELeague has to do this to cover their bases legally.
That only means EL is treating teams just like regular sports teams. It's not a collection of players that qualify, but a team, a brand. They left their team and signed for another one, of course they're not eligible to play.
Think a football team "A" qualifies for Champions League and for some reason transfer their whole squad to another team "B", that fired all it's players. Team B is not eligible to play in CL although all of the players they employ played and qualified with team A. This is neither stupid nor unprofessional.
I feel like the players/manager knew of this potential sanction and this is why the owner of Luminosity had involved ELeague during the dispute with SK in the first place. This is the only card that Luminosity could have held over the players to make them change their mind and go cold feet, that the players could have potentially lost out on this prize pool.
Yes, they get moved to the Playoffs automatically, and Renegades will be taking their place in the Last Chance Qualifier. For the Ex-SK Players, they will be replaced by Gambit Gaming in the Last Chance Qualifier.
Wait.... Renegades AND Liquid have different 5 man rosters right now than the ones that competed in E-League. What the hell is gonna happen with that? I guess the "first out" for the LCQ now takes their spot?
Edit: According to the EL site, RNG will be there.
While this is a shitty situation for ex-LG/SK and I'm sad, from a competitive standpoint it makes sense to prevent orgs from buying better teams after getting eliminated and getting a 2nd chance.
Can't believe I had to scroll this far to see this response. Stop blaming it on EL, they've got a big job on their hands and are doing it well. Less whining and more praising wouldn't go astray!
It kinda does when you are trying to build a TV league tbh.
Imagine if some NHL team started switching names like socks, players and staff would remain the same but one week they would be Detroit Redwings and the following they would be Colorado Avalanche and then they would become New York Rangers. That would be confusing as fuck.
EDIT: Just to make clear, I am not agreeing with the decision they made, I am just pointing out that the reasoning behind said decision is rather clear.
Difference is that NHL have actual offseason to do these trades (like when Atlanta Thrashers sold spot&team to Winnipeg), in CS:GO when these things should happen? There is something all the time leagues, tournaments and such.
In between ELEAGUE seasons you can switch orgs etc no problem. Basically players and orgs should lineup their contract expiration between ELEAGUE seasons. Just bad planning.
But it doesn't necessarily have to be structured like a regular sports league. I think it's much more conducive to treating it almost like golf since it is such an event heavy sport. There are leagues but these big LANs are really the focus. Even E League isn't really a league. It's basically a major but the group stages are entirely flushed out once a week. If Rory Mcilroy was sponsored by Nike for the first half of the Masters, then switched to Oakley, they wouldn't be like "ya you can't play". The players are what matters here.
Some of these games are being played on television with a lot of potential org money involved. The rule prevents the SK brand from being knocked out (and thus out of the eyes of viewers and potential sponsors) but then just going and buying their way back into the tournament by getting a team still in it (and get the SK brand back on TV).
There has to be some reasonable definition of what a "team" is. Up until today, people would probably say a team is 5 players combined under the name of their organization. In a way, the team feels tied to the organization as much as it is the players. In my opinion, if 5 players up and leave an org, they are the same roster but not really the same team.
I think they're the same team. The org itself contributes nothing to the game-play. They pay them. Other than repping your country, none of them really have regional ties so there's no reason for you you like one org over the other in the same way you like your city's team. People become fans of players and their support follows those players. Those players are the reason the org is at the event to begin with, not the other way around. It's not as thought the players are particularly lucky to be at an org that has a reserved spot in a league. The org is lucky to have a roster that can qualify. This is so much the case that if your org has less than I think 3 members from the last Major legends team, you lose your qualification, because the org means exactly dick, and the players mean everything.
TBS is investing tons of money into the production and promotion of EL and at the very least it's reasonable for them to expect consistent branding from the teams in return. Teams need to structure their contracts around this sort of stuff.
Before we shit all over eleague, I would like to point out that stupid or not, these rules were in place when eleague started it and should have been strongly considered when considering signing contracts with SK instead of remaining with LG. Idk if we can really blame eleague for this one
Edit: It has been suggested to me that the rule they have broken pertains to this one
>Section 4.3 # 14
>>All teams must submit their five (5) man roster, including two (2) subs, by May 18th, 5:00pm EST to chase. [email protected].
Additionally, it may be worth considering that according to Fallen the players did not sign contracts, the orgs did, which (in my opinion) strengthens the "teams belong to orgs not players" hence why SK is considered to have made 5 roster swaps instead of picking up a new team. Also, I am not necessarily in favor of this nor do I think it is necessarily a rule that makes sense. My only argument is that the team should have made sure they were entirely aware of the implications of signing new contracts. Also, SK the org should also have been *especially* aware. While I don't think it's right to punish the players for the org messing up, SK should have been aware of this and repercussions need to be enforced. Sorry for the initial confusion and my original inability to look through the rulebook for the rule.
Then what about the ex-SK lineup? Their contracts expired with SK on 1st of July and the org of SK didn't want to renew. How is it fair that they just get thrown out of the tournament for that? What exactly did they do wrong?
Just guessing here, since I can't find the official rules anywhere: this league is a league of organizations, not a league of rosters.
SK changed their full team - I can imagine how it goes against the rules of the league; just like in "normal" sports you can't suddenly replace your whole team.
Luminosity doesn't even have a team right now - even more logical to kick them out.
We CS:GO fans are used to watching competitions which think of themselves as competitions between rosters, not organizations. However, Turner is closer to "normal" sports and there, organizations represent the team, not rosters.
The E-League spot belongs to the orgs, not the roster. This has been made amply clear for many months. They're trying to basically make a pseudo-NFL style structure to E-League, with known franchises who have storylines develop between themselves.
It sucks but we have to remember that this league *is* being created by a TV network and being primed for a TV audience.
I think this is the biggest point, people don't understand that this is now on TV and is sent to a bigger audience who doesn't know what is going on. It would be confusing with all the promos they already shot and the money they already sank into these teams to do it all over again on their end.
It's really not that stupid and some sort of rule of this type makes sense if you think about it. Think about this hypothetical: Organization A and Organization B are competing in EL. Organization A has a team that is doing extremely well and Organization B has a team that is doing extremely poorly. Organization B loses and is out of the competition. Organization B drops their CS:GO team and buys Organization A's team so that they "bought back into" the competition in the middle of that season. You have to look at it from a mainstream TV perspective. This does horrors for team name recognition, etc. and distances itself immensely from the etiquette of normal sport.
There's no mention of sponsor obligations/etc in the rules: http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/img/2.0/sect/pulse/eleague/eleague_rulebookwebv3.pdf
And since there isn't we kinda have to assume that the Commissioner is invoking "[... ] to preserve fair play and sportsmanship" god-clause. Which is dubious since this isn't an issue of either fair play nor sportsmanship.
if you consider the organization as the team, and not the players, then it's a very clear violation.
sk essentially made 5 roster changes when they are only allowed 2
Hmmm that is actually very suspect, could you link me to the rule book? I'm travelling rn and am having a hard time finding it with inconsistent car internet
Section 4.3 # 14
>All teams must submit their five (5) man roster, including two (2) subs, by May 18th, 5:00pm EST to chase.
[email protected].
I think it is a bit after May 18th.
While I disagree with kicking out SK (ex-LG), if you look at the context of this tweet it isn't saying "If SK buy LG there are no sanctions planned". It's saying "Currently we will not sanction SK or LG" (this was back before LG turned into SK. It was just during the "drama" of potential buyouts and poaching.)
I think this was in reference to potential tampering with another orgs roster, not in response to a roster swap as at the time it was still believed that the LG team was going to stay with LG. Thus they thought that the orgs would stay the same. As it is now do you have SK play from where the previous SK team qualified or from where they qualified as LG? And if you set that precedent then wouldn't teams just switch orgs if they were eliminated and had the opportunity?
Only saying there are no sanctions at that time, but you can clearly read that they are assuming that LG stays LG and SK stays SK in this tweet ("SK in week 3 and LG in playoffs"). That is no longer the case.
Notice as how he mentions he hopes to see Luminosity return for the play offs? That means the future SK roster failed to tell ELeague that they are planning on jumping ship to SK
This is counterstrike, not NBA basketball. Teams switch orgs. That's just the way it is in counterstrike. We were assured that TBS was making ELeague work around CS, not the other way around. Obviously that was a lie.
why would it matter? its the exact same players, they are going to wear different colored shirts and sport a different logo.
shouldn't change anything.
https://twitter.com/lurppis_/status/750769201325965317
>lurppis @lurppis_
lurppis retweeted Robin Johansson
Not only that, this penalizes anyone whose contracts run out mid-season. Absolutely pointless.
Robin Johansson @Fifflaren
mm, so ex-SK got punished for having their org pickup another team? that's quite sad.. :(
https://twitter.com/NedlohESEAtv/status/750771212561899520
>Holden @NedlohESEAtv
What I hadn't thought about... If it's Org based and the old RNG roster isn't RNG anymore, why do they keep their spot and not ex-SK?
[**@minsikko**](https://twitter.com/minsikko):
>[2016-07-06 18:01:44 UTC](https://twitter.com/minsikko/status/750751598603894785)
>Luminosity & SK Gaming are no longer eligible to compete in our first season due to roster changes that do not comply with [@EL](https://twitter.com/EL) rules
----
[^[Mistake?]](/message/compose/?to=TweetPoster&subject=Error%20Report&message=/4rjufu%0A%0APlease leave above link unaltered.)
[^[Suggestion]](/message/compose/?to=TweetPoster&subject=Suggestion)
[^[FAQ]](/r/TweetPoster/comments/13relk/)
[^[Code]](https://github.com/joealcorn/TweetPoster)
[^[Issues]](https://github.com/joealcorn/TweetPoster/issues)
It's a questionable decision at best. Yes, rules exist for a reason, but in this case the roster change was outside of ex-SK's control. They were released by their org and then removed from ELEAGUE over something beyond their control.
It's disgusting and unfair to ex-SK who lose a major chance to pick up more of a spotlight and a new org.
Section 4.3 #16
16. Team rosters must be complete before plane tickets are issued. If a team decides to change the roster after
travel arrangements have been issued, any additional costs must be covered by the respective team.
I mean as long as the "respective team" covered the costs, I don't
see the big deal.
Below you'll find the link to the rule book. Unless I'm searching in the wrong place, I don't see anything speaking of roster changes.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/img/2.0/sect/pulse/eleague/eleague_rulebookwebv3.pdf
I believe this is it
14. All teams must submit their five (5) man roster, including two (2) subs, by May 18th, 5:00pm EST to chase.
[email protected].
The rosters were locked in May.
EDIT It actually is rule 14 under section 4.3 General Rules.
So really it comes down to e-leagues interpretation of the org and team. They view the team as the brand and not the 5 players. So if a team is dropped by their sponsor after qualifying, this would prevent them from competing.
It makes sense, though. They don't want a bunch of teams that can't commit to the entire 10 weeks. You'd want at least most of the team to remain the same from the playoffs to the finals. Otherwise, is it really the same team?
Also any change to orgs would mean they have to redo all promotional material including photo ops and graphics with the new team logos/clothing. Any previous highlights would be confusing for casual viewers and would really impact them trying to take this more mainstream.
furthermore
>Players and coaches may not stand on chairs, tables, or other ELEAGUE equipment and will follow all rules of
the venue as designated by ELEAGUE.
Section 4.3 # 14
>All teams must submit their five (5) man roster, including two (2) subs, by May 18th, 5:00pm EST to chase.
[email protected].
I think it is a bit after May 18th.
It would be reporting the roster by a certain date iirc. SK already registered a roster by that date, but they are attempting to compete with a different roster. Wouldn't explain why Team X is barred though.
Not 100% sure but maybe.
EDIT: Team X would probably be barred because they only have 3/5. While Majors are cool with that, E-League might not be.
Guess it make sense for E-League to prioritize orgs over players (since they are use to deal with orgs in sports). But the real questions is if this is the right path for E-sports.
I think it would be good but e-sports needs to establish an offseason. The players already play enough and it would make sure that these sorts of things don't happen by establishing contract beginning and end points. Since you never really get to stop because of the way tournaments work it creates this weird undefined time frame to get this stuff done.
Wonder what caused him to change his mind?
https://twitter.com/minsikko/status/737435961135648768
"There are no plans to sanction either team. We look forward to having SK Gaming compete in Week 3 and Luminosity return for the playoffs."
That comment if I remember correctly was from before the move actually happened and it was just a rumor and SK had threatened legal action. The move actually happened which means LG doesn't have a team in ELeague any longer in any form and the pre-existing SK roster that competed has been replaced fully.
EDIT: I should clarify that his comment was in response to the SK ownership saying they would seek legal sanctions against the LG roster so ELeague responded saying they wouldn't seek the same sanctions. That tweet had nothing to do with the actual roster move, just the threatened legal proceedings.
This is from before the rosters actually changed. When he made this comment they didnt know what was going to happen so no sanctions would have been permitted as they hadn't broken any rules at the time... that has all changed now.
I totally agree with this - Say ELeague allowed SK to play, they would play as SK, when SK has already been eliminated. What would stop an org in season two from purchasing or switching rosters of another org who were in the playoffs or finals? Say Team 1 moved on and Team 2 got knocked out. Team 2 has more money though and essentially buys their way back into the competition. You may not like it but they need to keep their integrity.
This is really fucked up... who ever wins ELEAGUE will be faced with the comment "But you didn't have to play against SK". Anyway, I just hope that this is a temporary ban.
> this is a temporary ban.
this is just for this season, next season the orgs submit new team line ups - when teams sign up for the league they submit their rosters which cant be changed during the 10 week season.
I didnt read the rule book but why is CLG still involved, they made a roster change, as did flipside, Gambit etc. Stupid rules, stupid application of the rules, stupid admin decision.
According this link from ESPN, seven teams has signed petition in order to remove former LG team from e-league
http://espn.uol.com.br/noticia/611602_csgo-sete-equipes-assinaram-peticao-para-desclassificar-brasileiros-da-eleague
Cloud9, Counter Logic Gaming, Echo Fox, NRG Esports, OpTic Gaming, Team Liquid and Team SoloMid
Well, talk about being bad at PR. Players getting to know it through twitter, and being assured that it wouldn't be an issue back in maj.
While the SK and LG furror might be justified the ex-SK, Team X, just got the shaft, and got fucked big time in terms of getting picked up by an org.
Also, regarding FalleN's tweet regarding they didn't see the contracts brings transparency up, and if the Astralis boys have ventured on the right path.
Sad but I wondered all along if this would happen. If I remember correctly, E-league admins assured us that nothing would change in regards to SK/LG controversy. I guess they didn't read their own rulebook.
Getting rid of the former SK roster makes perfect sense though, as the team is a shell of what it once was.
former SK roster still has 3 of the 5 players, so not a massive change tbh. Plus, renegades will now take Ex-SKs spot in the last chance qual, who have only 4 players currently.
https://twitter.com/esportsLawEU/status/750755596673114113
>Anna B. Baumann @esportsLawEU
The only thing in the rulebook I see are remarks about "unofficial roster changes"
???
It's ridiculous the fact that they are prioritizing orgs over players. Not only that but they gave the news by Twitter and in the middle of a major, great service for the SK players.
This is so fucking stupid.
Yes, Fallen and the rest of SK completely fucked up their whole transition to a new org. Yes they are idiots.
But this is even more ridiculous and stupid.
"Roster changes" are meant to keep teams from swapping players last minute. It's not meant to prevent sponsorship changes. The team itself is the exact same fucking team. It's just got a new name/sponsorship.
**Think about this hypothetical:** What if the Luminosity Gaming organization went out of business half-way through the season? Would that mean that ex-LG are kicked out of the tournament because they changed their fucking names?
This might be hands down the dumbest thing I've seen in the history of eSports.
This is what happens when the tournament organizers are promoting a TV league. You don't want teams swapping rosters half way in a season and buying out rosters that made it further in the tournament--it set's a bad precedent.
What about ex-SK, those players did nothing wrong, their contracts just happen to have ran out mid season, bullshit that they are punished. CS should be about the players not the fucking orgs.
1. What rules?
(edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/4rjy9s/eleagues_rulebook_has_no_precedent_for_banning/ )
2. What about friis and his ex-sk mates?
Understand why, however this was a organization change set around player contracts expiring.
ELeague shouldnt be dictating when full rosters change organizations.
Wasn't this just a new contract aswell. Didn't the LG contract expire on July 1st? So if maybe instead LG players signed for an org that had no current team they'd still be punished for signing a new contract? This is stupid
What a great injustice we've seen today. This why rules should get changed, ruined the players efforts. Players need a union, I'm sick of corporations shitting on the players.
I don't quite understand this, simply based on the LCQ teams. CLG and RNG are both in the Last Chance Quals but both teams had roster changes as well...
Pretty sure it was known that E-League spots were extended to orgs and not to groups of players. I wonder if Luminosity picked up ex-SK if they would be aloud to play.
Funny how everyone loved eleague and how they treated their players until this one thing and now everyone hates them and is saying how they never cared
TAZ has spoken
https://twitter.com/g5taz/status/750825167140560896
https://twitter.com/g5taz/status/750825298317410305
https://twitter.com/g5taz/status/750825715940069376
>This is incredibly bad... Ex-SK gets removed from e-league for being kicked from org?SK gets new contracts get disqualified?
Better rules need to be set for future... or we will destroy what've built...
Events can't have rules on their own, organizations need to start signing long term contracts, we need transfer windows, we need a system..
https://twitter.com/LG_dead/status/750755274940571648 >Ricardo Sinigaglia @LG_dead @EL thank you for letting us know by twitter,rly kind!
And EL's commisioner, the guy from the tweet, seems to be in Cologne as well. Couldn't have told them face to face? Shame
> Shame DING DING DING
Oysters, clams and cockles.
It's really shitty timing no matter how they inform them. I'm sure it's not something the players want to be thinking about while trying to perform at the major.
[удалено]
gotta release that right in the major!
Dead has every right to be upset with eleague. Very unprofessional from them.
What about RNG and CLG? They are no longer sponsored by LA Renegades and have been roster changes (SPUNG retiring).. I highly doubt koosta is part of their 5 man + 2 subs for CLG...
[удалено]
Rules state you can only swap with 2 subs (who are to be submitteed prior to eleague). I highly doubt CLG submitted koosta as a sub. If they violated an organization name rule - then RNG is DQ. Yet both are in the LCQ.
This is pretty stupid. The players earned their spot it doesn't matter the team what if LG had fired them? they would also be DQ'd? most stupid decision ever
[удалено]
I think your partially right but I think it's also a contract issue. They undoubtedly signed their contracts with organizations not players which again relates to what you said but forces the issue
I think it's more an issue with e-sports not understanding how contracts work in the real world. I'm assuming the reasoning for this is based in the language of the contract and ELeague has to do this to cover their bases legally.
Yeah I can't believe this, I'm an LG fan and I've been ever since fer got an ace against Fnatic. Besides, their contract expired on July 1st.
Man I thought you wrote a poem at first. Took me way long to realise you hadn't.
That only means EL is treating teams just like regular sports teams. It's not a collection of players that qualify, but a team, a brand. They left their team and signed for another one, of course they're not eligible to play. Think a football team "A" qualifies for Champions League and for some reason transfer their whole squad to another team "B", that fired all it's players. Team B is not eligible to play in CL although all of the players they employ played and qualified with team A. This is neither stupid nor unprofessional.
just like LG players being upfront about negotiations with SG and telling EL about it? Oh wait, this is a two way street.
I feel like the players/manager knew of this potential sanction and this is why the owner of Luminosity had involved ELeague during the dispute with SK in the first place. This is the only card that Luminosity could have held over the players to make them change their mind and go cold feet, that the players could have potentially lost out on this prize pool.
Fallen said on twitter they never saw any contract from EL, orgs did. So how can you blame the players for that?
Org signs contract with EL, does responsibility to inform what is in the contract fall on EL or on the org? You can't blame EL either.
I'm not blaming EL either. Responsability is all of the 2 orgs.
Should not have sounded like that, more like a thought
All good man.
What? They didn't let them know before going public? Really shitty and unprofessional, I hope this doesn't affect their performance in the Major =/
Who takes their spot? c9?
I am choosing a book for reading
OH FUCK I CAN FEEL MY FLAIR CHANGING ALREADY
Beat you to it
I never changed my flair.
Never change your flair. If you stick to a team even when it is losing a win will be even more rewarding later on :)
My body is ready.
I think we're left out to dry my friend. #neverforget
Good things happen to good people.
You guys aren't the only ones...
there are dozens of us...
I feel you, bro.
its better to die a hero than live long enough to see yourself become a villain
Hello darkness my old friend.
Same here. It's been hard recently.
As a fan of nV and the Minnesota Twins, i have had a pretty rough year
They took Durant from us and my favorite team got out of groups all in one week. I can only take so much.
Weren't they already in the last chance qualifier since they got second in their groups?
Yes, they get moved to the Playoffs automatically, and Renegades will be taking their place in the Last Chance Qualifier. For the Ex-SK Players, they will be replaced by Gambit Gaming in the Last Chance Qualifier.
Wait.... Renegades AND Liquid have different 5 man rosters right now than the ones that competed in E-League. What the hell is gonna happen with that? I guess the "first out" for the LCQ now takes their spot? Edit: According to the EL site, RNG will be there.
They do. Look at the new Last Chance Qualifier. http://www.e-league.com/news/2016/7/6/eleague-last-chance-qualifier
This is my question, but then if C9 replaces SK for the playoffs, then who replaces C9 for the Last Chance Qualifier?
Renegades
YEEES! Renegades <3
WE DID IT BOIS!
While this is a shitty situation for ex-LG/SK and I'm sad, from a competitive standpoint it makes sense to prevent orgs from buying better teams after getting eliminated and getting a 2nd chance.
Yeah people don't understand this is the real reason the rule is in place.
Can't believe I had to scroll this far to see this response. Stop blaming it on EL, they've got a big job on their hands and are doing it well. Less whining and more praising wouldn't go astray!
Does the Org matter though? As a competition, don't you want the team? These tournaments overlap so much, when are teams supposed to move orgs?
It kinda does when you are trying to build a TV league tbh. Imagine if some NHL team started switching names like socks, players and staff would remain the same but one week they would be Detroit Redwings and the following they would be Colorado Avalanche and then they would become New York Rangers. That would be confusing as fuck. EDIT: Just to make clear, I am not agreeing with the decision they made, I am just pointing out that the reasoning behind said decision is rather clear.
Difference is that NHL have actual offseason to do these trades (like when Atlanta Thrashers sold spot&team to Winnipeg), in CS:GO when these things should happen? There is something all the time leagues, tournaments and such.
In between ELEAGUE seasons you can switch orgs etc no problem. Basically players and orgs should lineup their contract expiration between ELEAGUE seasons. Just bad planning.
But it doesn't necessarily have to be structured like a regular sports league. I think it's much more conducive to treating it almost like golf since it is such an event heavy sport. There are leagues but these big LANs are really the focus. Even E League isn't really a league. It's basically a major but the group stages are entirely flushed out once a week. If Rory Mcilroy was sponsored by Nike for the first half of the Masters, then switched to Oakley, they wouldn't be like "ya you can't play". The players are what matters here.
Some of these games are being played on television with a lot of potential org money involved. The rule prevents the SK brand from being knocked out (and thus out of the eyes of viewers and potential sponsors) but then just going and buying their way back into the tournament by getting a team still in it (and get the SK brand back on TV).
Think actual sports and not e-sports terms. Orgs matter.
There has to be some reasonable definition of what a "team" is. Up until today, people would probably say a team is 5 players combined under the name of their organization. In a way, the team feels tied to the organization as much as it is the players. In my opinion, if 5 players up and leave an org, they are the same roster but not really the same team.
I think they're the same team. The org itself contributes nothing to the game-play. They pay them. Other than repping your country, none of them really have regional ties so there's no reason for you you like one org over the other in the same way you like your city's team. People become fans of players and their support follows those players. Those players are the reason the org is at the event to begin with, not the other way around. It's not as thought the players are particularly lucky to be at an org that has a reserved spot in a league. The org is lucky to have a roster that can qualify. This is so much the case that if your org has less than I think 3 members from the last Major legends team, you lose your qualification, because the org means exactly dick, and the players mean everything.
TBS is investing tons of money into the production and promotion of EL and at the very least it's reasonable for them to expect consistent branding from the teams in return. Teams need to structure their contracts around this sort of stuff.
Even if we buy that argument, then what is the argument for throwing the ex-SK lineup out as well?
Not a very good reason but possible collusion to make money? I doubt that's happening but rules are there to prevent such a thing.
[удалено]
Before we shit all over eleague, I would like to point out that stupid or not, these rules were in place when eleague started it and should have been strongly considered when considering signing contracts with SK instead of remaining with LG. Idk if we can really blame eleague for this one Edit: It has been suggested to me that the rule they have broken pertains to this one >Section 4.3 # 14 >>All teams must submit their five (5) man roster, including two (2) subs, by May 18th, 5:00pm EST to chase. [email protected]. Additionally, it may be worth considering that according to Fallen the players did not sign contracts, the orgs did, which (in my opinion) strengthens the "teams belong to orgs not players" hence why SK is considered to have made 5 roster swaps instead of picking up a new team. Also, I am not necessarily in favor of this nor do I think it is necessarily a rule that makes sense. My only argument is that the team should have made sure they were entirely aware of the implications of signing new contracts. Also, SK the org should also have been *especially* aware. While I don't think it's right to punish the players for the org messing up, SK should have been aware of this and repercussions need to be enforced. Sorry for the initial confusion and my original inability to look through the rulebook for the rule.
Then what about the ex-SK lineup? Their contracts expired with SK on 1st of July and the org of SK didn't want to renew. How is it fair that they just get thrown out of the tournament for that? What exactly did they do wrong?
To be fair the ex-LG contract also ended on July 1st, ain't like if they swapped orgs in the middle of the contract
[удалено]
Just guessing here, since I can't find the official rules anywhere: this league is a league of organizations, not a league of rosters. SK changed their full team - I can imagine how it goes against the rules of the league; just like in "normal" sports you can't suddenly replace your whole team. Luminosity doesn't even have a team right now - even more logical to kick them out. We CS:GO fans are used to watching competitions which think of themselves as competitions between rosters, not organizations. However, Turner is closer to "normal" sports and there, organizations represent the team, not rosters.
The E-League spot belongs to the orgs, not the roster. This has been made amply clear for many months. They're trying to basically make a pseudo-NFL style structure to E-League, with known franchises who have storylines develop between themselves. It sucks but we have to remember that this league *is* being created by a TV network and being primed for a TV audience.
I think this is the biggest point, people don't understand that this is now on TV and is sent to a bigger audience who doesn't know what is going on. It would be confusing with all the promos they already shot and the money they already sank into these teams to do it all over again on their end.
the rules do not say anything http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/img/2.0/sect/pulse/eleague/eleague_rulebookwebv3.pdf
thes spots in the tourny are held by the orgs and not the players, when they changed orgs they werent registered subs which causes the dq's
[удалено]
It's really not that stupid and some sort of rule of this type makes sense if you think about it. Think about this hypothetical: Organization A and Organization B are competing in EL. Organization A has a team that is doing extremely well and Organization B has a team that is doing extremely poorly. Organization B loses and is out of the competition. Organization B drops their CS:GO team and buys Organization A's team so that they "bought back into" the competition in the middle of that season. You have to look at it from a mainstream TV perspective. This does horrors for team name recognition, etc. and distances itself immensely from the etiquette of normal sport.
This actually makes a ton of sense and I appreciate the explanation for the need of the rule.
There's no mention of sponsor obligations/etc in the rules: http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/img/2.0/sect/pulse/eleague/eleague_rulebookwebv3.pdf And since there isn't we kinda have to assume that the Commissioner is invoking "[... ] to preserve fair play and sportsmanship" god-clause. Which is dubious since this isn't an issue of either fair play nor sportsmanship.
if you consider the organization as the team, and not the players, then it's a very clear violation. sk essentially made 5 roster changes when they are only allowed 2
If you read the rule book, they make no mention of roster changes outside of teams having to reimburse E-league for travel.
Hmmm that is actually very suspect, could you link me to the rule book? I'm travelling rn and am having a hard time finding it with inconsistent car internet
[удалено]
Thanks :)
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/img/2.0/sect/pulse/eleague/eleague_rulebookwebv3.pdf
Section 4.3 # 14 >All teams must submit their five (5) man roster, including two (2) subs, by May 18th, 5:00pm EST to chase. [email protected]. I think it is a bit after May 18th.
[удалено]
While I disagree with kicking out SK (ex-LG), if you look at the context of this tweet it isn't saying "If SK buy LG there are no sanctions planned". It's saying "Currently we will not sanction SK or LG" (this was back before LG turned into SK. It was just during the "drama" of potential buyouts and poaching.)
Wait now I'm confused lol
I think this was in reference to potential tampering with another orgs roster, not in response to a roster swap as at the time it was still believed that the LG team was going to stay with LG. Thus they thought that the orgs would stay the same. As it is now do you have SK play from where the previous SK team qualified or from where they qualified as LG? And if you set that precedent then wouldn't teams just switch orgs if they were eliminated and had the opportunity?
this isn't relevant and it's not even in the same context. at that time neither team had changed players or organizations
Only saying there are no sanctions at that time, but you can clearly read that they are assuming that LG stays LG and SK stays SK in this tweet ("SK in week 3 and LG in playoffs"). That is no longer the case.
Notice as how he mentions he hopes to see Luminosity return for the play offs? That means the future SK roster failed to tell ELeague that they are planning on jumping ship to SK
Guys, this status date back to 30 May 2016
This was just when the drama was going on before the change actually happened though, so it's a completely different situation now.
This is counterstrike, not NBA basketball. Teams switch orgs. That's just the way it is in counterstrike. We were assured that TBS was making ELeague work around CS, not the other way around. Obviously that was a lie.
why would it matter? its the exact same players, they are going to wear different colored shirts and sport a different logo. shouldn't change anything.
I'm not arguing whether or not it should in my opinion. I'm arguing these players should have been more aware
You have to feel for the ex-SK guys. These guys had nothing to do with this.
https://twitter.com/lurppis_/status/750769201325965317 >lurppis @lurppis_ lurppis retweeted Robin Johansson Not only that, this penalizes anyone whose contracts run out mid-season. Absolutely pointless. Robin Johansson @Fifflaren mm, so ex-SK got punished for having their org pickup another team? that's quite sad.. :(
Letting the SK players know this, while they are playing the major, through twitter is just messed up.
so unfair on ex-SK getting dropped from SK then kicked from the tournament as they're not in SK.
[удалено]
so what would have happened if sk didnt sign LG and lg just had their contracts run out? would they be disqualified then?
Brazilian channel that bought the broadcasting rights just got fucked, lol.
https://twitter.com/NedlohESEAtv/status/750771212561899520 >Holden @NedlohESEAtv What I hadn't thought about... If it's Org based and the old RNG roster isn't RNG anymore, why do they keep their spot and not ex-SK?
RNG still have their team until they sign them away. It looks like RNG as the org will stick in CSGO though, as they're signing Rickeh.
[удалено]
[**@minsikko**](https://twitter.com/minsikko): >[2016-07-06 18:01:44 UTC](https://twitter.com/minsikko/status/750751598603894785) >Luminosity & SK Gaming are no longer eligible to compete in our first season due to roster changes that do not comply with [@EL](https://twitter.com/EL) rules ---- [^[Mistake?]](/message/compose/?to=TweetPoster&subject=Error%20Report&message=/4rjufu%0A%0APlease leave above link unaltered.) [^[Suggestion]](/message/compose/?to=TweetPoster&subject=Suggestion) [^[FAQ]](/r/TweetPoster/comments/13relk/) [^[Code]](https://github.com/joealcorn/TweetPoster) [^[Issues]](https://github.com/joealcorn/TweetPoster/issues)
https://twitter.com/Thooorin/status/750823823864426496
It's a questionable decision at best. Yes, rules exist for a reason, but in this case the roster change was outside of ex-SK's control. They were released by their org and then removed from ELEAGUE over something beyond their control. It's disgusting and unfair to ex-SK who lose a major chance to pick up more of a spotlight and a new org.
What roster change? They changed orgs but not rosters right? Am I missing something?
In ELeague, the orgs hold the spots, not the players like for example they do in majors.
The orgs roster changed
Luminosity went to SK. The thing is that SK had a team in eleague and they did not went out of group i think.
The SK organization went from one roster to another, even though the (now-SK) roster itself didn't change.
They're still putting the orgs above the players.
Section 4.3 #16 16. Team rosters must be complete before plane tickets are issued. If a team decides to change the roster after travel arrangements have been issued, any additional costs must be covered by the respective team. I mean as long as the "respective team" covered the costs, I don't see the big deal.
Below you'll find the link to the rule book. Unless I'm searching in the wrong place, I don't see anything speaking of roster changes. http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/img/2.0/sect/pulse/eleague/eleague_rulebookwebv3.pdf
I believe this is it 14. All teams must submit their five (5) man roster, including two (2) subs, by May 18th, 5:00pm EST to chase. [email protected]. The rosters were locked in May. EDIT It actually is rule 14 under section 4.3 General Rules.
So really it comes down to e-leagues interpretation of the org and team. They view the team as the brand and not the 5 players. So if a team is dropped by their sponsor after qualifying, this would prevent them from competing.
It makes sense, though. They don't want a bunch of teams that can't commit to the entire 10 weeks. You'd want at least most of the team to remain the same from the playoffs to the finals. Otherwise, is it really the same team?
Also any change to orgs would mean they have to redo all promotional material including photo ops and graphics with the new team logos/clothing. Any previous highlights would be confusing for casual viewers and would really impact them trying to take this more mainstream.
This is really what the rule is trying to prevent.
Rosters are the same, what org they play for shouldn't be something relevant. Bullshit.
[удалено]
furthermore >Players and coaches may not stand on chairs, tables, or other ELEAGUE equipment and will follow all rules of the venue as designated by ELEAGUE.
Safety first, man
Nice, so we can still do a handstand, flips and squatting on the chairs and tables.
Section 4.3 # 14 >All teams must submit their five (5) man roster, including two (2) subs, by May 18th, 5:00pm EST to chase. [email protected]. I think it is a bit after May 18th.
I also just spent a while looking for anything about this and can't find it.
It would be reporting the roster by a certain date iirc. SK already registered a roster by that date, but they are attempting to compete with a different roster. Wouldn't explain why Team X is barred though. Not 100% sure but maybe. EDIT: Team X would probably be barred because they only have 3/5. While Majors are cool with that, E-League might not be.
Guess it make sense for E-League to prioritize orgs over players (since they are use to deal with orgs in sports). But the real questions is if this is the right path for E-sports.
I think it would be good but e-sports needs to establish an offseason. The players already play enough and it would make sure that these sorts of things don't happen by establishing contract beginning and end points. Since you never really get to stop because of the way tournaments work it creates this weird undefined time frame to get this stuff done.
Wonder what caused him to change his mind? https://twitter.com/minsikko/status/737435961135648768 "There are no plans to sanction either team. We look forward to having SK Gaming compete in Week 3 and Luminosity return for the playoffs."
That comment if I remember correctly was from before the move actually happened and it was just a rumor and SK had threatened legal action. The move actually happened which means LG doesn't have a team in ELeague any longer in any form and the pre-existing SK roster that competed has been replaced fully. EDIT: I should clarify that his comment was in response to the SK ownership saying they would seek legal sanctions against the LG roster so ELeague responded saying they wouldn't seek the same sanctions. That tweet had nothing to do with the actual roster move, just the threatened legal proceedings.
That was before it was announced the teams would change. That was just from rumors about sk poaching.
"Wonder what caused him to change his mind?" The fact that the brazilians actually changed organization.
This is from before the rosters actually changed. When he made this comment they didnt know what was going to happen so no sanctions would have been permitted as they hadn't broken any rules at the time... that has all changed now.
I totally agree with this - Say ELeague allowed SK to play, they would play as SK, when SK has already been eliminated. What would stop an org in season two from purchasing or switching rosters of another org who were in the playoffs or finals? Say Team 1 moved on and Team 2 got knocked out. Team 2 has more money though and essentially buys their way back into the competition. You may not like it but they need to keep their integrity.
This is really fucked up... who ever wins ELEAGUE will be faced with the comment "But you didn't have to play against SK". Anyway, I just hope that this is a temporary ban.
> this is a temporary ban. this is just for this season, next season the orgs submit new team line ups - when teams sign up for the league they submit their rosters which cant be changed during the 10 week season.
I didnt read the rule book but why is CLG still involved, they made a roster change, as did flipside, Gambit etc. Stupid rules, stupid application of the rules, stupid admin decision.
Cause CLG only swapped one member whereas SK and LG moved entire rosters
According this link from ESPN, seven teams has signed petition in order to remove former LG team from e-league http://espn.uol.com.br/noticia/611602_csgo-sete-equipes-assinaram-peticao-para-desclassificar-brasileiros-da-eleague Cloud9, Counter Logic Gaming, Echo Fox, NRG Esports, OpTic Gaming, Team Liquid and Team SoloMid
This is stupid. Put the players and the viewers up front in your decision, or you end up with stupid rules like that.
[удалено]
Not happy.
Well, talk about being bad at PR. Players getting to know it through twitter, and being assured that it wouldn't be an issue back in maj. While the SK and LG furror might be justified the ex-SK, Team X, just got the shaft, and got fucked big time in terms of getting picked up by an org. Also, regarding FalleN's tweet regarding they didn't see the contracts brings transparency up, and if the Astralis boys have ventured on the right path.
Announced on Twitter, in the middle of the Major... wow... some professionals they are.... gg
not only a dumb decision but to announce mid major....really bad look for eleague
Sad but I wondered all along if this would happen. If I remember correctly, E-league admins assured us that nothing would change in regards to SK/LG controversy. I guess they didn't read their own rulebook. Getting rid of the former SK roster makes perfect sense though, as the team is a shell of what it once was.
former SK roster still has 3 of the 5 players, so not a massive change tbh. Plus, renegades will now take Ex-SKs spot in the last chance qual, who have only 4 players currently.
https://twitter.com/esportsLawEU/status/750755596673114113 >Anna B. Baumann @esportsLawEU The only thing in the rulebook I see are remarks about "unofficial roster changes" ???
It's ridiculous the fact that they are prioritizing orgs over players. Not only that but they gave the news by Twitter and in the middle of a major, great service for the SK players.
Didn't Renegades stopped existing? Didn't they lose sponsor as well? Why are they there?
This is so fucking stupid. Yes, Fallen and the rest of SK completely fucked up their whole transition to a new org. Yes they are idiots. But this is even more ridiculous and stupid. "Roster changes" are meant to keep teams from swapping players last minute. It's not meant to prevent sponsorship changes. The team itself is the exact same fucking team. It's just got a new name/sponsorship. **Think about this hypothetical:** What if the Luminosity Gaming organization went out of business half-way through the season? Would that mean that ex-LG are kicked out of the tournament because they changed their fucking names? This might be hands down the dumbest thing I've seen in the history of eSports.
That actually makes Riot's 'competitive rulings' seem professional and good. And that's saying a lot.
[удалено]
This is what happens when the tournament organizers are promoting a TV league. You don't want teams swapping rosters half way in a season and buying out rosters that made it further in the tournament--it set's a bad precedent.
inb4 salty fans. Only becuse they are the best team atm does not mean they can break the rules
What about ex-SK, those players did nothing wrong, their contracts just happen to have ran out mid season, bullshit that they are punished. CS should be about the players not the fucking orgs.
1. What rules? (edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/4rjy9s/eleagues_rulebook_has_no_precedent_for_banning/ ) 2. What about friis and his ex-sk mates?
Hey, look guys! Someone being logical about things! Get him!
https://twitter.com/LG_FalleN/status/750753256138117120
Fallen is so awful when it comes to taking the blame for shit. He refuses to admit that he fucked up.
Still haven't seen FalleN taking personal responsibility in any of his public statement; he's always putting the blame on others.
he said it was all his fault in an intreview
u wot
Understand why, however this was a organization change set around player contracts expiring. ELeague shouldnt be dictating when full rosters change organizations.
I would say that this is worse for the ex-SK... lol
Wasn't this just a new contract aswell. Didn't the LG contract expire on July 1st? So if maybe instead LG players signed for an org that had no current team they'd still be punished for signing a new contract? This is stupid
What a great injustice we've seen today. This why rules should get changed, ruined the players efforts. Players need a union, I'm sick of corporations shitting on the players.
I don't quite understand this, simply based on the LCQ teams. CLG and RNG are both in the Last Chance Quals but both teams had roster changes as well...
What about CLG? They are in the LCQ and they changed their roster...
Pretty sure it was known that E-League spots were extended to orgs and not to groups of players. I wonder if Luminosity picked up ex-SK if they would be aloud to play.
Hahaha what a clusterfuck
Not a huge fan of giving the org so much power. Also not a fan of ex sk getting punished for shit out of their control. Pretty ridiculous.
Funny how everyone loved eleague and how they treated their players until this one thing and now everyone hates them and is saying how they never cared
You know what this means boys. TAAAAAAAAAAAAAANK TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS
nice blackmail NA orgs
TAZ has spoken https://twitter.com/g5taz/status/750825167140560896 https://twitter.com/g5taz/status/750825298317410305 https://twitter.com/g5taz/status/750825715940069376 >This is incredibly bad... Ex-SK gets removed from e-league for being kicked from org?SK gets new contracts get disqualified? Better rules need to be set for future... or we will destroy what've built... Events can't have rules on their own, organizations need to start signing long term contracts, we need transfer windows, we need a system..
If they had lost one of the games is it going to happen? Damn EL trying to keep their interests first ...
[удалено]
Yeah, give the SK guys some good news while they're playing a major. Nice timing.
When a league prioritizes orgs instead of the players, you know something is wrong. First Immortals/Tempo, now this.. really shady
First Tempo Storm/Immortals and now LG/SK. Good job ELEAGUE, make America great again.