I imagine that Farsight would have a role similar to Tassadar in the original StarCraft campaign where Shadowsun is sent to arrest him, and then joins him after having had enough of the mistakes of the Ethereals.
Didn't Aun'shi get captured by Dark Eldars, and to this day, the mad lad is killing everything they are throwing at him in the gladiator's pits of Commorragh?
He's apparently now leading an expedition to reclaim the Enclaves back for the Empire which could actually result in the fight mentioned above. Pretty interesting, potentially.
The UNSC in Halo I feel suffers from different visions on how it is supposed to look. In the games it tends to be written as your standard human army. In a lot of the novels, creators seem determined to make it as bad as the Covenant.
That's cause the games only needed "your dudes" and "various alien enemies" to make the game work.
But if the novels had the same amount of depth, they would be what is called Bolterporn around here. Just 200 pages of awesome guys shooting awesome guns while looking awesome.
I welcome it when video game novels add depth and nuance to a universe, since there is often no room for that in non-story focused games.
Some parts of the novels sound like they are going overboard. I have seen claims that the UNSC is as bad as the imperium of man. By this point, I have expect a retcon where it is revealed that the UNSC actually provoked the covenant.
What is the point of continuously showing how evil the organization our main characters work for they’re never gonna change it? This feels like going beyond adding depth to the universe, and simply adding darkness for its own sake. I don’t see why I should care if our heroes win or lose anymore if we are told the UNSC is barely any better than the Banished. Maybe letting the Banished take over the galaxy would be an improvement. I don’t see them instigating a civil war among their allies out of sheer paranoia.
Back when Unraveled was a thing Brian David Gilbert did a excellent [video](https://youtu.be/WEWEdIcx1DI?si=JFFlsOnYBULmNNb4) on the halo novels and that gives a good look into all the novels and how they vary wildly in quality, tone and overall importance to the lore.
I don't think the UNSC ever gets as bad as the Imperium. What it is however is a very authoritarian miltiaristic regime thats retroactively justified by the Covenants War of Extermination.
Also it doesn't really matter what the UNSC is like, at least for the games. When we meet them in the first game they are on the brink of Extinction and what's left of the UNSC is fighting a desperate war of survival. Humanity continued existence as a species is on the line and for that's it natural that ethics go out the window.
And for all its worth humanity seems to have improved when we link up with them in halo 4 again, keeping the peace with the covenant intact so far and new Spartans being made from adult volunteers instead of kidnapped children.
>and new Spartans being made from adult volunteers instead of kidnapped children.
Those new generation Spartans and their girly sensitive "moral procedures"
Back in my days, if I wanted an armored warcrime warrior, you kidnapped them as children! Replace them with flashclones that die off rapidly! Put the kids through an Inhuman training procedure! Surgically enhance them with operations that leave about 25% of them actually physically fine to continue, and half of them die! And stuff them in a death trap of a suit!
Now you can't do that, because it is apparently "immoral" and "fucked up" and "The guy isn't cool and stoic, he is mentally stunted and repressed into himself"
Kids those days, man.
I didn’t expect to see praise for Karen Traviss’s work. I have not heard good things about her writing. Her work on Star Wars is infamous for lionizing the Mandalorians as the pinnacle of civilization despite the history they had of working for the Sith.
Grasslands sees the alleged heroes arming fanatics who want to kill the Arbiter in order to ensure the Sangheili don’t pose a threat to humanity, even though the Arbiter is the biggest advocate among the Sangheili for peace with humanity. Then again, the bits of Halo lore I have read about say that ONI is staffed by numbskulls who would get shot for incompetence if they worked for the Imperium of Man or Galactic Empire. Also, the scientist who headed up the SPARTAN program gets all the blame, none of it is on ONI. Also, the Spartan III program is praised despite still using child soldiers.
Though it sounds like the sequel acknowledges that, yes, the previous novel was too hard on the scientist because of Karen’s lionization of military men.
The video explained that humans are on mostly peaceful terms with the Sangheili in most of the novels set after Halo 3, so that is something.
I’ve seen some comments on here, in the lore sub and ofc on Twitter but it seems to be an opinion held by the biggest of Imperium fans and not many else.
It’s wrong though. Empires are just as much self defense as anything else. Conquer or be conquered is a real thing, even in real life, let alone in a fantasy galaxy known for there being only war.
“If you don’t take an absolutist position on this fictional race in a setting with space elves, you’re a fascist.”
if you aren’t going to discuss this topic with maturity, just don’t respond.
My guy acting like he didn't bring the real world into the convo.
Imperialism being necessary for self defense is the oldest excuse in the book. Don't run away from your view after being called out.
> My guy acting like he didn't bring the real world into the convo.
No I didn’t. But clearly, you aren’t trying to be honest here.
> Imperialism being necessary for self defense is the oldest excuse in the book.
Yep. That’s how facts work. They don’t go away because you’re too scared to confront them.
> Don't run away from your view after being called out.
Again, not what happened. And again, the truth is something you clearly are not fond of.
So are you going to provide an actual point, or are you just gonna keep shitposting and being fallacious? Because I can just block you and end this nonsense of yours if you want to cling to your cute little internet crusade.
>Conquer or be conquered is a real thing, even in real life
Here is where you brought in the real world, you even say "real life"
Do I need to go line by line with evidence that you believe Imperialism is necessary in the real world. Conquer or be conquered is how every Fascist Autocrat sells imperialism through out history. There are my actual points.
In summary, you are sympathetic to fascists' rhetoric, and I believe you should be ridiculed for it.
>Here is where you brought in the real world, you even say "real life"
Yep. Never denied it in all my comments. You just insisted I did as a lazy strawman to avoid talking about my actual point.
>Do I need to go line by line with evidence that you believe Imperialism is necessary in the real world.
You need to provide some sort of counterpoint to my statement instead of lazily alluding to fascism.
>Conquer or be conquered is how every Fascist Autocrat sells imperialism through out history.
It’s also how every democracy, kingdom, tribe, city-state, communist regime, and every other type of social rule justified their wars…because it was true. If you let your rival faction grow and expand, they’ll eventually come for you. That’s literally what happens constantly in history. It’s not fascism to understand that. You seem to be missing the connection between these points.
>In summary, you are sympathetic to fascists' rhetoric, and I believe you should be ridiculed for it.
Don’t try to summarize your lazy, thoughtless point that consisted of one sentence that ignored 99% of history.
The reality here is that you’re scared of the truth if my statement, so instead of responding rationally or just dealing with your own emotions, you lashed out at an internet stranger. That won’t fix your emotional issues, nor will your delusion end the threat that countries like Russia proved exists. If you can’t deal with your own fears, trying to bully people on the internet isn’t going to help.
An empire is inherently evil as an authoritarian state. Caste systems are bad.
Furthermore, T'au are aggressively expansionist and have employed some very dubious means of population control, from mind control to (maybe) sterilization to (possibly implied but not confirmed and largely forgotten by GW) genocide of an allied alien species for territorial gain via biological warfare.
They would absolutely be evil. Not like, evil for the sake of it or by nature, but because of choices, the environment and how they culture shaped up.
Tau castes are distinct subspecies. Air caste have hollow bones, like birds, and live entirely in low gravity environments. It’s nothing like the Indian caste system. The most common forms of social hierarchy exists within each caste, as every member has a rank. Excepting the Ethereal caste, these ranks a mirrored across castes. An ‘O is an ‘O , be it Shas’O or Por’O. I’m not saying this makes them not evil, I just want to communicate that the word caste is being used in a novel way when it comes to the Tau.
>An empire is inherently evil as an authoritarian state.
No it’s not. Empires are far more complicated than that and have good and bad things.
>Caste systems are bad.
In humans, sure. In an alien specie that was acting in their nature, not so much.
>They would absolutely be evil. Not like, evil for the sake of it or by nature, but because of choices, the environment and how they culture shaped up.
Still seem neutral to me, especially considering they’re up against strange aliens. Is mind control moral against humans like us? No. Is it moral to use it on a mindlessly aggressive hive of insectoid aliens who you keep alive and protect as long as they don’t attack you? Maybe.
Tau are pragmatic in a galaxy full of horrors. I don’t think they can be considered evil though. Not good, but not evil.
Having both good and evil parts does not prevent a group from being evil.
The T'au empire is objectively pretty evil imo but against the backdrop of stuff like chaos, drukhari, imperium and orks it looks a lot more presentable than if compared to like, conventionally good factions from other media.
Caste systems are bad, period. That something occurs in nature or culture does not make it automatically right or good.
Mind control takes away the free will of another person, and is thus inherently immoral. Does not matter what the other person wants to do. Like, if there's a species that wants to kill you and everyone you care about, they are entitled to try, and you are absolutely entitled to not try to keep them alive via mind control, and have every right to fight back until either they change their mind and you achieve a compromise, or they no longer exist.
I'm not a T'au expert by any means, but I would argue there are some important distinction from ants.
For one, the other castes existing having free will before the ethereals were around. Second, there's the Farsight Enclave that exists with free will without any etheral influence.
Ants literally cannot exist without a queen, queens are integral parts of ant life cycles.
Now, admittedly, before the ethereals, the T'au were a primitive, divided people. There is certainly a utilitarian argument that the etherals have been good for the development of the T'au, and maybe even essential for their survival in a dangerous galaxy. But the goodness of the ethereals depends on what ethical framework you're using.
Their biology unifies them in the same way humanity has tribal loyalties. It’s not different other than it’s a more direct set of impulses.
The fact that it’s a blend of free will and desire to conform makes them less evil and more relatable, pragmatic and realistic .
They’re aliens. Their biology is what it is.
Every empire has a system of law and order. I don’t see how that’s evil, especially when it’s part of their nature to unite behind a specific ruler.
First is the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen from Dune, second is Lord Helmuth of the [Boskone](https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Boskone) Empire from the Lensman series, both heavy influences in the creation of 40K itself (fun fact: Lensman is basically the first sci-fi setting with power armor and they also had basically power axes for both cutting holes through ship walls and getting through anti-ranged energy shields).
Starship Troopers novel was from 1959 but Lensman started over a decade earlier in 1948, ST just ended up a lot more popular with multiple movies and whatnot.
Also the ST power armors were ironically probably an inspiration for Tau Crisis Suits with a main focus on lots of ranged dakka and mobility while the lensman power armor troops engage in more melee with even psychic powers mixed in (doing SM librarians/Thousand Sons before it was cool).
Lensman, however, is more popular in the Anime community since it had a very well regarded anime adaptation that...probably wasn't very close to the books IIRC and is regarded as one of those 'must watch' classic sci-fi anime.
This is accurate, they aren't nearly as aggressive as the Orks or the emperium in their expansion (again due to living in the same galaxy as these psycho cilizations they better acquire territory to exchange for time in case of attack at LEAST) they seek peace but of they gotta be silent and carry a big stick while javing a strictly structured society that doesn't allow many civil liberties, well they are gonna if it works, same with oil in saudi Arabia/arab states if it works, it works.
They have the ideal of the greater good and try to give people they meet the benefit of the doubt (something stupid to do in WH40K but from their perspective it's just trying to be polite and open to hear the other guy out) and they stick to it regardless, with some exceptions (communism vs capitalism is an example of being stubborn if you ask me since this got tied to national identity)
Frankly, while their society is extremely regimented, the Tau don't seem to be much worse than like, the real life British Empire, who hold the world record for killing people in easily preventable famines.
I mean, the modern conception of Indian caste is practically a British colonial construct designed to divide Indian demographics, so they've got that part down.
Even star trek has factions like the dominion and the borg, which are way nastier than the tau. Hell, the federation at it's worst is probably somewhat comparable to them.
Honestly I see it in the reverse. Having nothing but peaceful interactions with the Tau until they get a distress call from a planet undergoing annexation only to find that the ones assaulting the planet have been the friendly but oddly spiritual tau
I don't really know. We don't see the Ethereals running around making the Fire cast addicted to a drug only they can manufacture. Or the water cast members all having a killswitch implanted from birth.
I think the dominion is probably worse. The stuff they pull on rebelling planets is horrific, (the quickening plauge), they were going to totally genocide earth if they won, and when they lost cardassia (due to them sending tens of thousands of soldiers to their deaths as a delaying tactic, and then blowing up a city of 100000 when they complained), they carpet bombed it into the stone age out of spite.
Eh, I have yet to see the Tau completely subjucate their client species such that they become nothing more than a genetically tailored slave races which only reproduce via cloning.
The Tau also encourage their Fire Caste warriors value their own lives. The Dominion raises the Jem’Hadar to enter battle seeing themselves as dead, and gaining life through victory. Victory that can come at the cost of a suicide attack.
They could give the imperium of man for run for their money in how cheap they treat life.
I think he meant the Vorta. I think the Jem'hadar were made in a test tube from the beginning. But it's been awhile since I watched DS9 so I could be wrong
I don’t remember if we were told about either species being grown from scratch or not so I thought the assumption is that they were.
Either way, I repeat my point that the Dominion leadership treats the lives of its soldiers so cheaply that it could give the imperium of man a run for its money. I don’t believe it is a standard tactic for imperial ships to employee kamikaze assaults.
Well Weyoun does tell- I think it was Kira- in a scene in a runabout that the founders found them as tree dwelling mammals that fed on nuts and berries and did a little forced evolution to make them what they are. He mentioned that the founders impeded their sense of taste so they could only really taste what their ancestors ate as a reminder.
Edit: it was Odo
Yeah in general the Tau sit somewhat uncomfortably in between the federation and the dominion, to the extent that they could be either allies or enemies of the federation depending on when contact was made.
Hey now, Tassadar was doing his best not to do that.
Turns out the Conclave was just a bit blind. Well a lot blind considering how they thought to arrest Tassadar instead of deal with the Zerg.
I’ve often said that if the Tau existed in Star Trek they’d be seen in a similar light to the Dominion. Enforced pseudo-religious worship of a founding race/caste that holds themselves above all others? Check. Dubious treatment at best and outright enslavement and population control at worst for most species under their control? Check. Portray themselves as simply wanting to “spread peace and order through the galaxy”, but incredibly expansionistic in reality? Check. One of the only antagonistic factions to make good use of diplomacy? Check
I’d say they’re better than the Dominion simply because the Etherals are actually earnest is what they’re doing.
The Founders know their founding mythology is a shame, a tool they use to control the Jem’Hadar and the Vorta, and so they’ve ensured secondary means to controlling their thralls (ketracell-white, the vorta cloning, etc)
Escalated into a war that has decimated over a million worlds. The Core and The Arm have all but exhausted the resources of a galaxy in their struggle for domination...
Both sides now crippled beyond repair. The remnants of their armies continue to battle on ravaged planets. Their hatred fueled by over 4000 years of total war.
The Protoss were more focused on the Zerg tbh, they didn’t actively attack Terran worlds for them existing (Except the Tal’darim, but few like them in the first place). It’s just that they showed little concern for collateral damage in order to contain the Zerg
The Tau aren't pure saints, but they would still be pretty good by many other setting's standards where there's other factions blowing up their own planets or wiping out entire populations on a whim.
Like just in Marvel, Dr.Doom isn't even the most evil villain yet he'll destroy an entire universe just out of pure spite:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Marvel/comments/126syjc/doom\_once\_destroyed\_an\_universe\_because\_someone/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Marvel/comments/126syjc/doom_once_destroyed_an_universe_because_someone/)
I am not a fan of Dr. Doom destroying a universe out of pure spite. We have some moments where writers try to humanize them, and wants killed more people than Thanos, just because he couldn’t stand the existence of a universe where he was friends with Reed Richards.
And the way it happened is so stupid. we have the infinity stones, cosmic cube and the ultimate nullifier laying around in a glass case with no security. A random burglar could take those things.
I mean I dunno that marvel- or any superhero/villain based setting- is necessarily a good comparison.
The power scaling in “super”-meta’s is so wildly out of wack that it’s even more absurdist than sci fi usually gets. If the Tau had a Dr. Doom, I can almost guarantee you they would *also* start nuking systems that didn’t conform to the Greater Good, as would nearly any civilization from any setting outside of the super verses.
The Tau are a relatively grounded look at collectivism and imperialism sharing space in a setting with actual demons.
They're less evil than many modern day IRL nations honestly. At least they're competent oppressors.
Honestly the Tau Empire at times feels like a faction out of Star Trek. The issue they raise of how much freedom are you comfortable giving away to gain security and care is good one. Especially since, as you pointed out, the Ethereals are generally competent and the corruption that is ever present in our society doesn’t really exist for the Tau.
Can you give some examples of the many modern day IRL nations that the Tau are better than? Cause the Tau are an incredibly rigid caste-based society where doing things outside of your caste is punished severely and engage in things like forced sterilization.
He said many modern day IRL nations. Which there’s maybe up to a dozen you could make an argument for. But *many*? That’s pushing it quite a bit. And even that dozen its an argument for, not necessarily is 100% true.
Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Russia, PRC, DPRK, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, most of Africa, etc.
The Tau Empire isn’t a liberal democracy but it’s stable, it’s citizens do have rights and a form of due process and the quality of life is, at worst, like that of the Nordic Countries.
It’s just authoritarian with the balance of power being always in favor of the Etherals and general power and influence resting within the Tau race as a whole. The Tau’Va keeps this situation from being like that of the British Empire exactly but in instances like the 4th Sphere, we see where this over reliance on the Tau as a species can backfire.
JUST authoritarian? The T'au is pretty god damn oppressive, running reeducation camps, sterilizes populations that aren't compliant, any non-Tau are third-class citizens, are actively expansionistic and colonial, mass indoctrination and brainwashing, etc.
The topic isn't "Are Tau citizens better off than citizens of nations on Earth", the topic is "Are they less **evil** than many modern day IRL nations". Which is no, the Tau are more evil than damn near every country on Earth.
Ah yes, they stone women who show their faces, send racial minorities into mass camp systems where they’re abused and have their organs harvested if need be, or just outright engage in chattel slavery.
Yeah the Tau use propaganda, are incredibly expansionist and don’t take no for an answer, but they haven’t done what I mentioned above and the sterilization theory has been disproven hundreds of times at this point.
Their use of reeducation camps is disturbing but currently they look to be actual reeducation camps, not a Euphemism for death camps. It’s old lore so it could change but for now that’s what it seems to be.
I always thought the Tau would be really interesting if they showed up in Star Trek, I like the idea of a less-pleasant mirror of the federation that’s nonetheless earnest despite their various atrocities (as opposed to the more-obviously-evil Dominion and Terran Empire). The Ethereals could use a Patrick Stewart speech^TM or two.
You forgot that Zeon dropped a space colony on the Earth to destroy the Federation’s military HQ. Having material outside the anime makes me scratch my head at anything that tried to say the two sides weren’t so different when Zeon immediately resorted to weapons of mass destruction. I am OK with giving humanizing traits to the villains, but I feel like we needed a Andor style moment that reminds us no matter what humanizing traits someone may have, if they keep fighting for such a regime, they are most likely not a good person.
8th MS Team has one of the federation officers advocate for killing every single person who works for Zeon. She is meant to be seen as wrong, but we saw by that point that showing Zeon at the end of the war was a big mistake since they continued their efforts for world domination, including a terrorist plan to kill millions, and later an attempt to cause the apocalypse. It makes my head scratch at the Titans being written as worse when the Zeon have done worse things, and trying to do something about Zeon’s aggression leading to the rise of the Titans gives the under mat the federation was expected to simply keep taking Zeon’s crap.
The Protoss were only purifying planets that weren’t held by allies. The closest it ever gets to that is an optional mission in Wings of Liberty, where the Protoss attempt to purify the colony of Haven because of a Zerg infestation which Raynor’s Raiders can oppose. Otherwise they’ve only attempted to purify planets held by either neutral or hostile powers, and even then only to halt the spread of the Zerg.
The techno core from Hyperion used humanity as a supercomputer to build a godlike ai and then planned to enslave them in a constant near death state and sent an army of death machines back in time to kill/ cause the destruction of God.
The Tau have seen some shit, if they came to any of these galaxies they would probably jump for joy. And when the main evil faction comes for them they would laugh say something like “At least they aren’t drukhari!” And blast them straight back to their homeworld
To be fair, the Starcraft factions did stop doing that after less than a decade, 4 years of which were relatively peaceful. Mengsk, the UED, the Confederacy, the Conclave, Amon, the Overmind, the Queen of Blades and Abathur were the big warmongers and they all got removed from the picture. Only the Tal’Darim is left to potentially cause problems but they seem content after Nova Covert Ops to just keep to themselves
During Covert Ops they only did that because Alarak got angry with the primates from that new group attacked a Tal’darim outpost. Only to turn tail and run before they could retaliate
Put some respect on Dr.Dooms name. He may be a super villian but he cares about his country and its people regardless of who they are or what they can do and he chose to stop being a god because it bored him just to merx thanos seconds actee explaining that to him
StarCraft is only genocide from the zerg perspective. The terrans and protoss have no interest in destroying each other, they only fight when one gets in the way of fighting the zerg or another internal enemy. The Zerg, for their part, deserve about as much mercy as the Tyranids.
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Tbh Satecraft humanity is just Empire but on capitalism. Much more effective, but just as ruthless. So effective it takes 23 sec to train a space marine, 42 to build barracks.
I don’t think anyone really says that, what they say is that the Tau would be A VILLAIN in any other sci fi setting. This is also not completely true but it’s significantly better.
The Tau use smallpox blankets and brainwashing. The whole basis of their conquest-strategy is to use subversion to turn brother against brother, father against son, and ally against ally. And their entire shtick is one, giant Motte-And-Bailey argument.
I would say that the T’au are directly comparable to the Cybermen, at least the post 2005 ones. I don’t think it’s fair to put the Daleks up here, since without Davros’ modifications they’re pretty chill.
I think Tau as they are represent an interesting spin on grimdark.
While of the other factions are some flavor of elitist, xenophobic, genocidal maniacs, they all wear their colors proudly, and will tell you to their face what they are and what they are about. Tau, on the other hand, are the cloak and dagger, two-faced type of evil. They will try to convince you that in a universe of unapologetic evil, *only they* can be trusted to protect the little guy and fight for *the greater good*. But as soon as you start to buy all of their virtue signaling and you drink the kool-aid, you become a slave to the empire. You are locked into a caste that you can never escape, your family forever condemned to an ultra limited role in society that they will be **severly** punished for attempting to branch out of. "Allies" are mind controlled or otherwise dominated into military service, the ruling caste wields totalitarian power, and the people are just numbers on a spreadsheet, forever churning out resources and materials for those who oppress them.
It's very standout amongst the caste (pun) of 40k and I think it adds a lot of flavor to an otherwise kinda one dimensional setting of "everyone is mega-Hitler". I love Tau, I think they are not only one of the most realistic evils in 40k, but also just so well designed that people get to have these discussions I nthe first place.
Remember kids, all people are created equal, some are just *more* equal🤗
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I’ve always said it, there Tau would be Star Trek villains, an interesting race who’s militarism and mutispecies tolerance is a mirror to the Star Trek more liberal socialism view of the future.
I don't think anyone says T'au would be the MOST evil faction if they were in another setting, but just that they would be more evil than average.
Yeah, they won't be the most evil, but they'd *definitely* be villains.
I imagine that Farsight would have a role similar to Tassadar in the original StarCraft campaign where Shadowsun is sent to arrest him, and then joins him after having had enough of the mistakes of the Ethereals.
Aunshi is the one arresting him. THEIR MELEE BATTLE WILL BE LEGENEDARY
Look, I think Aun'shi is cool but he's not beating a guy in a battlesuit with a lifesteal weapon.
Aunshi: you underestimate my plot armor.
Only one of their models survived to the current codex, just saying.
Didn't Aun'shi get captured by Dark Eldars, and to this day, the mad lad is killing everything they are throwing at him in the gladiator's pits of Commorragh?
He's apparently now leading an expedition to reclaim the Enclaves back for the Empire which could actually result in the fight mentioned above. Pretty interesting, potentially.
Damn, must have been remembering wrong. My bad.
I don't know, have seem good guy factions in other settings perform evil stuff. And are still massively viewed as the good guys. Like in Halo
The UNSC in Halo I feel suffers from different visions on how it is supposed to look. In the games it tends to be written as your standard human army. In a lot of the novels, creators seem determined to make it as bad as the Covenant.
That's cause the games only needed "your dudes" and "various alien enemies" to make the game work. But if the novels had the same amount of depth, they would be what is called Bolterporn around here. Just 200 pages of awesome guys shooting awesome guns while looking awesome. I welcome it when video game novels add depth and nuance to a universe, since there is often no room for that in non-story focused games.
Some parts of the novels sound like they are going overboard. I have seen claims that the UNSC is as bad as the imperium of man. By this point, I have expect a retcon where it is revealed that the UNSC actually provoked the covenant. What is the point of continuously showing how evil the organization our main characters work for they’re never gonna change it? This feels like going beyond adding depth to the universe, and simply adding darkness for its own sake. I don’t see why I should care if our heroes win or lose anymore if we are told the UNSC is barely any better than the Banished. Maybe letting the Banished take over the galaxy would be an improvement. I don’t see them instigating a civil war among their allies out of sheer paranoia.
Back when Unraveled was a thing Brian David Gilbert did a excellent [video](https://youtu.be/WEWEdIcx1DI?si=JFFlsOnYBULmNNb4) on the halo novels and that gives a good look into all the novels and how they vary wildly in quality, tone and overall importance to the lore. I don't think the UNSC ever gets as bad as the Imperium. What it is however is a very authoritarian miltiaristic regime thats retroactively justified by the Covenants War of Extermination. Also it doesn't really matter what the UNSC is like, at least for the games. When we meet them in the first game they are on the brink of Extinction and what's left of the UNSC is fighting a desperate war of survival. Humanity continued existence as a species is on the line and for that's it natural that ethics go out the window. And for all its worth humanity seems to have improved when we link up with them in halo 4 again, keeping the peace with the covenant intact so far and new Spartans being made from adult volunteers instead of kidnapped children.
>and new Spartans being made from adult volunteers instead of kidnapped children. Those new generation Spartans and their girly sensitive "moral procedures" Back in my days, if I wanted an armored warcrime warrior, you kidnapped them as children! Replace them with flashclones that die off rapidly! Put the kids through an Inhuman training procedure! Surgically enhance them with operations that leave about 25% of them actually physically fine to continue, and half of them die! And stuff them in a death trap of a suit! Now you can't do that, because it is apparently "immoral" and "fucked up" and "The guy isn't cool and stoic, he is mentally stunted and repressed into himself" Kids those days, man.
I didn’t expect to see praise for Karen Traviss’s work. I have not heard good things about her writing. Her work on Star Wars is infamous for lionizing the Mandalorians as the pinnacle of civilization despite the history they had of working for the Sith. Grasslands sees the alleged heroes arming fanatics who want to kill the Arbiter in order to ensure the Sangheili don’t pose a threat to humanity, even though the Arbiter is the biggest advocate among the Sangheili for peace with humanity. Then again, the bits of Halo lore I have read about say that ONI is staffed by numbskulls who would get shot for incompetence if they worked for the Imperium of Man or Galactic Empire. Also, the scientist who headed up the SPARTAN program gets all the blame, none of it is on ONI. Also, the Spartan III program is praised despite still using child soldiers. Though it sounds like the sequel acknowledges that, yes, the previous novel was too hard on the scientist because of Karen’s lionization of military men. The video explained that humans are on mostly peaceful terms with the Sangheili in most of the novels set after Halo 3, so that is something.
I’ve seen some comments on here, in the lore sub and ofc on Twitter but it seems to be an opinion held by the biggest of Imperium fans and not many else.
I even doubt this. Tau are just a regular space empire. The issue is lots of people insist having an empire at all is evil instead of neutral.
> The issue is lots of people insist having an empire at all is evil instead of neutral. I think this is a fairly uncontroversial position these days.
It’s wrong though. Empires are just as much self defense as anything else. Conquer or be conquered is a real thing, even in real life, let alone in a fantasy galaxy known for there being only war.
Which direction of the pipeline did you come from: Fascism to 40K or 40K to Fascism?
“If you don’t take an absolutist position on this fictional race in a setting with space elves, you’re a fascist.” if you aren’t going to discuss this topic with maturity, just don’t respond.
My guy acting like he didn't bring the real world into the convo. Imperialism being necessary for self defense is the oldest excuse in the book. Don't run away from your view after being called out.
> My guy acting like he didn't bring the real world into the convo. No I didn’t. But clearly, you aren’t trying to be honest here. > Imperialism being necessary for self defense is the oldest excuse in the book. Yep. That’s how facts work. They don’t go away because you’re too scared to confront them. > Don't run away from your view after being called out. Again, not what happened. And again, the truth is something you clearly are not fond of. So are you going to provide an actual point, or are you just gonna keep shitposting and being fallacious? Because I can just block you and end this nonsense of yours if you want to cling to your cute little internet crusade.
>Conquer or be conquered is a real thing, even in real life Here is where you brought in the real world, you even say "real life" Do I need to go line by line with evidence that you believe Imperialism is necessary in the real world. Conquer or be conquered is how every Fascist Autocrat sells imperialism through out history. There are my actual points. In summary, you are sympathetic to fascists' rhetoric, and I believe you should be ridiculed for it.
>Here is where you brought in the real world, you even say "real life" Yep. Never denied it in all my comments. You just insisted I did as a lazy strawman to avoid talking about my actual point. >Do I need to go line by line with evidence that you believe Imperialism is necessary in the real world. You need to provide some sort of counterpoint to my statement instead of lazily alluding to fascism. >Conquer or be conquered is how every Fascist Autocrat sells imperialism through out history. It’s also how every democracy, kingdom, tribe, city-state, communist regime, and every other type of social rule justified their wars…because it was true. If you let your rival faction grow and expand, they’ll eventually come for you. That’s literally what happens constantly in history. It’s not fascism to understand that. You seem to be missing the connection between these points. >In summary, you are sympathetic to fascists' rhetoric, and I believe you should be ridiculed for it. Don’t try to summarize your lazy, thoughtless point that consisted of one sentence that ignored 99% of history. The reality here is that you’re scared of the truth if my statement, so instead of responding rationally or just dealing with your own emotions, you lashed out at an internet stranger. That won’t fix your emotional issues, nor will your delusion end the threat that countries like Russia proved exists. If you can’t deal with your own fears, trying to bully people on the internet isn’t going to help.
when i'm in a not beating the allegations competition and my opponent is Grimdank
I HATE THE REALIST SCHOOL OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS I HATE THE REALIST SCHOOL OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
An empire is inherently evil as an authoritarian state. Caste systems are bad. Furthermore, T'au are aggressively expansionist and have employed some very dubious means of population control, from mind control to (maybe) sterilization to (possibly implied but not confirmed and largely forgotten by GW) genocide of an allied alien species for territorial gain via biological warfare. They would absolutely be evil. Not like, evil for the sake of it or by nature, but because of choices, the environment and how they culture shaped up.
Tau castes are distinct subspecies. Air caste have hollow bones, like birds, and live entirely in low gravity environments. It’s nothing like the Indian caste system. The most common forms of social hierarchy exists within each caste, as every member has a rank. Excepting the Ethereal caste, these ranks a mirrored across castes. An ‘O is an ‘O , be it Shas’O or Por’O. I’m not saying this makes them not evil, I just want to communicate that the word caste is being used in a novel way when it comes to the Tau.
>An empire is inherently evil as an authoritarian state. No it’s not. Empires are far more complicated than that and have good and bad things. >Caste systems are bad. In humans, sure. In an alien specie that was acting in their nature, not so much. >They would absolutely be evil. Not like, evil for the sake of it or by nature, but because of choices, the environment and how they culture shaped up. Still seem neutral to me, especially considering they’re up against strange aliens. Is mind control moral against humans like us? No. Is it moral to use it on a mindlessly aggressive hive of insectoid aliens who you keep alive and protect as long as they don’t attack you? Maybe. Tau are pragmatic in a galaxy full of horrors. I don’t think they can be considered evil though. Not good, but not evil.
Having both good and evil parts does not prevent a group from being evil. The T'au empire is objectively pretty evil imo but against the backdrop of stuff like chaos, drukhari, imperium and orks it looks a lot more presentable than if compared to like, conventionally good factions from other media. Caste systems are bad, period. That something occurs in nature or culture does not make it automatically right or good. Mind control takes away the free will of another person, and is thus inherently immoral. Does not matter what the other person wants to do. Like, if there's a species that wants to kill you and everyone you care about, they are entitled to try, and you are absolutely entitled to not try to keep them alive via mind control, and have every right to fight back until either they change their mind and you achieve a compromise, or they no longer exist.
A regular space empire with a class of elites that uses some sort of mind control.
The ethereals are about as evil as ants are for being guided by a queen. It’s their biology, not a moral choice.
I'm not a T'au expert by any means, but I would argue there are some important distinction from ants. For one, the other castes existing having free will before the ethereals were around. Second, there's the Farsight Enclave that exists with free will without any etheral influence. Ants literally cannot exist without a queen, queens are integral parts of ant life cycles. Now, admittedly, before the ethereals, the T'au were a primitive, divided people. There is certainly a utilitarian argument that the etherals have been good for the development of the T'au, and maybe even essential for their survival in a dangerous galaxy. But the goodness of the ethereals depends on what ethical framework you're using.
Their biology unifies them in the same way humanity has tribal loyalties. It’s not different other than it’s a more direct set of impulses. The fact that it’s a blend of free will and desire to conform makes them less evil and more relatable, pragmatic and realistic .
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I don't mean that literally, I mean "ruled" but without the human social presumptions that word carries.
They’re aliens. Their biology is what it is. Every empire has a system of law and order. I don’t see how that’s evil, especially when it’s part of their nature to unite behind a specific ruler.
See my response to the other person, it's applicable here too.
Who are all the other factions in the last panel? I only recognize Dr. Doom and the Doctor Who villains.
First is the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen from Dune, second is Lord Helmuth of the [Boskone](https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Boskone) Empire from the Lensman series, both heavy influences in the creation of 40K itself (fun fact: Lensman is basically the first sci-fi setting with power armor and they also had basically power axes for both cutting holes through ship walls and getting through anti-ranged energy shields).
An E E Doc Smith reader? I never thought I'd see the day!
I thought Starship Troopers was the first?
Starship Troopers novel was from 1959 but Lensman started over a decade earlier in 1948, ST just ended up a lot more popular with multiple movies and whatnot. Also the ST power armors were ironically probably an inspiration for Tau Crisis Suits with a main focus on lots of ranged dakka and mobility while the lensman power armor troops engage in more melee with even psychic powers mixed in (doing SM librarians/Thousand Sons before it was cool).
Lensman, however, is more popular in the Anime community since it had a very well regarded anime adaptation that...probably wasn't very close to the books IIRC and is regarded as one of those 'must watch' classic sci-fi anime.
One on the left is Baron Harkonnen from Dune, not sure about who the middle is
Tau may not be the worst, but they sure would be villains.
At worst they’d be rivals to other empires doing similar things. The tau are just like…any country or empire.
This is accurate, they aren't nearly as aggressive as the Orks or the emperium in their expansion (again due to living in the same galaxy as these psycho cilizations they better acquire territory to exchange for time in case of attack at LEAST) they seek peace but of they gotta be silent and carry a big stick while javing a strictly structured society that doesn't allow many civil liberties, well they are gonna if it works, same with oil in saudi Arabia/arab states if it works, it works. They have the ideal of the greater good and try to give people they meet the benefit of the doubt (something stupid to do in WH40K but from their perspective it's just trying to be polite and open to hear the other guy out) and they stick to it regardless, with some exceptions (communism vs capitalism is an example of being stubborn if you ask me since this got tied to national identity)
Frankly, while their society is extremely regimented, the Tau don't seem to be much worse than like, the real life British Empire, who hold the world record for killing people in easily preventable famines. I mean, the modern conception of Indian caste is practically a British colonial construct designed to divide Indian demographics, so they've got that part down.
Even star trek has factions like the dominion and the borg, which are way nastier than the tau. Hell, the federation at it's worst is probably somewhat comparable to them.
Honestly the Tau are a dark reflection of the Federation and would be an interesting antagonist in a Star Trek setting
Yeah, I can see them being like the Klingons. Starting out as straight enemies before transitioning to being off-again-on-again allies.
As long as there are cowardly romulans to fight
Honestly I see it in the reverse. Having nothing but peaceful interactions with the Tau until they get a distress call from a planet undergoing annexation only to find that the ones assaulting the planet have been the friendly but oddly spiritual tau
The Tau *are* the dominion. But with crisis suits instead of Jem'hadar.
I don't really know. We don't see the Ethereals running around making the Fire cast addicted to a drug only they can manufacture. Or the water cast members all having a killswitch implanted from birth.
I think the dominion is probably worse. The stuff they pull on rebelling planets is horrific, (the quickening plauge), they were going to totally genocide earth if they won, and when they lost cardassia (due to them sending tens of thousands of soldiers to their deaths as a delaying tactic, and then blowing up a city of 100000 when they complained), they carpet bombed it into the stone age out of spite.
Eh, I have yet to see the Tau completely subjucate their client species such that they become nothing more than a genetically tailored slave races which only reproduce via cloning.
The Tau also encourage their Fire Caste warriors value their own lives. The Dominion raises the Jem’Hadar to enter battle seeing themselves as dead, and gaining life through victory. Victory that can come at the cost of a suicide attack. They could give the imperium of man for run for their money in how cheap they treat life.
I think he meant the Vorta. I think the Jem'hadar were made in a test tube from the beginning. But it's been awhile since I watched DS9 so I could be wrong
I don’t remember if we were told about either species being grown from scratch or not so I thought the assumption is that they were. Either way, I repeat my point that the Dominion leadership treats the lives of its soldiers so cheaply that it could give the imperium of man a run for its money. I don’t believe it is a standard tactic for imperial ships to employee kamikaze assaults.
Well Weyoun does tell- I think it was Kira- in a scene in a runabout that the founders found them as tree dwelling mammals that fed on nuts and berries and did a little forced evolution to make them what they are. He mentioned that the founders impeded their sense of taste so they could only really taste what their ancestors ate as a reminder. Edit: it was Odo
It'll probably be in the next book Phil Kelly writes
Yeah in general the Tau sit somewhat uncomfortably in between the federation and the dominion, to the extent that they could be either allies or enemies of the federation depending on when contact was made.
Hey now, Tassadar was doing his best not to do that. Turns out the Conclave was just a bit blind. Well a lot blind considering how they thought to arrest Tassadar instead of deal with the Zerg.
Don't forget Xeelee and the ICOG
the ICOG legit made me sick reading the 1d4chan page of xeelee fuckk the ICOG, all my homies HATE the ICOG
The fuck is the dark empire? T'au would still be the evil guys there though as they share like 50% DNA with the dominion
It's the Terran Empire from the mirror universe. I've never seen it referred to as the dark empire though.
Ah yeah. The mirror universe. The least interesting episodes of deep space nine XD
Tunes in to DS9: *And now an episode you won't care about* "Well I guess it's better than talk shows..."
Talk shows don't have bisexual femdom Kira Nerys after all.
And they're missing out
I’ve often said that if the Tau existed in Star Trek they’d be seen in a similar light to the Dominion. Enforced pseudo-religious worship of a founding race/caste that holds themselves above all others? Check. Dubious treatment at best and outright enslavement and population control at worst for most species under their control? Check. Portray themselves as simply wanting to “spread peace and order through the galaxy”, but incredibly expansionistic in reality? Check. One of the only antagonistic factions to make good use of diplomacy? Check
I’d say they’re better than the Dominion simply because the Etherals are actually earnest is what they’re doing. The Founders know their founding mythology is a shame, a tool they use to control the Jem’Hadar and the Vorta, and so they’ve ensured secondary means to controlling their thralls (ketracell-white, the vorta cloning, etc)
TOTAL ANNIHILATION MENTIONED!
What began as a conflict over the transfer of consciousness from flesh to machines...
Escalated into a war that has decimated over a million worlds. The Core and The Arm have all but exhausted the resources of a galaxy in their struggle for domination...
Both sides now crippled beyond repair. The remnants of their armies continue to battle on ravaged planets. Their hatred fueled by over 4000 years of total war.
This is a fight to the death. For each side, the only acceptable outcome is the complete elimination of the other.
Yooooo I got that shit on Steam for $7.50 to relive my childhood.
The Protoss were more focused on the Zerg tbh, they didn’t actively attack Terran worlds for them existing (Except the Tal’darim, but few like them in the first place). It’s just that they showed little concern for collateral damage in order to contain the Zerg
The Tau aren't pure saints, but they would still be pretty good by many other setting's standards where there's other factions blowing up their own planets or wiping out entire populations on a whim. Like just in Marvel, Dr.Doom isn't even the most evil villain yet he'll destroy an entire universe just out of pure spite: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Marvel/comments/126syjc/doom\_once\_destroyed\_an\_universe\_because\_someone/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Marvel/comments/126syjc/doom_once_destroyed_an_universe_because_someone/)
I am not a fan of Dr. Doom destroying a universe out of pure spite. We have some moments where writers try to humanize them, and wants killed more people than Thanos, just because he couldn’t stand the existence of a universe where he was friends with Reed Richards. And the way it happened is so stupid. we have the infinity stones, cosmic cube and the ultimate nullifier laying around in a glass case with no security. A random burglar could take those things.
I mean I dunno that marvel- or any superhero/villain based setting- is necessarily a good comparison. The power scaling in “super”-meta’s is so wildly out of wack that it’s even more absurdist than sci fi usually gets. If the Tau had a Dr. Doom, I can almost guarantee you they would *also* start nuking systems that didn’t conform to the Greater Good, as would nearly any civilization from any setting outside of the super verses.
Dr. doom didn’t destroy the universe in his own power. He did it by stealing a weapon called the ultimate nullifier.
The Tau are a relatively grounded look at collectivism and imperialism sharing space in a setting with actual demons. They're less evil than many modern day IRL nations honestly. At least they're competent oppressors.
Honestly the Tau Empire at times feels like a faction out of Star Trek. The issue they raise of how much freedom are you comfortable giving away to gain security and care is good one. Especially since, as you pointed out, the Ethereals are generally competent and the corruption that is ever present in our society doesn’t really exist for the Tau.
Can you give some examples of the many modern day IRL nations that the Tau are better than? Cause the Tau are an incredibly rigid caste-based society where doing things outside of your caste is punished severely and engage in things like forced sterilization.
Iran, North Korea, China, etc...
He said many modern day IRL nations. Which there’s maybe up to a dozen you could make an argument for. But *many*? That’s pushing it quite a bit. And even that dozen its an argument for, not necessarily is 100% true.
Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Russia, PRC, DPRK, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, most of Africa, etc. The Tau Empire isn’t a liberal democracy but it’s stable, it’s citizens do have rights and a form of due process and the quality of life is, at worst, like that of the Nordic Countries. It’s just authoritarian with the balance of power being always in favor of the Etherals and general power and influence resting within the Tau race as a whole. The Tau’Va keeps this situation from being like that of the British Empire exactly but in instances like the 4th Sphere, we see where this over reliance on the Tau as a species can backfire.
JUST authoritarian? The T'au is pretty god damn oppressive, running reeducation camps, sterilizes populations that aren't compliant, any non-Tau are third-class citizens, are actively expansionistic and colonial, mass indoctrination and brainwashing, etc. The topic isn't "Are Tau citizens better off than citizens of nations on Earth", the topic is "Are they less **evil** than many modern day IRL nations". Which is no, the Tau are more evil than damn near every country on Earth.
Ah yes, they stone women who show their faces, send racial minorities into mass camp systems where they’re abused and have their organs harvested if need be, or just outright engage in chattel slavery. Yeah the Tau use propaganda, are incredibly expansionist and don’t take no for an answer, but they haven’t done what I mentioned above and the sterilization theory has been disproven hundreds of times at this point. Their use of reeducation camps is disturbing but currently they look to be actual reeducation camps, not a Euphemism for death camps. It’s old lore so it could change but for now that’s what it seems to be.
India would be a bit better than the Tau even.
Phil Kelly brainrot is different from the actual Tau empire
[Me when Zeon did nothing wrong.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cciO9eWtZ_A)
True and real
Maybe the tau can show the stormtroopers how to aim against plot armor
You guys give total annihilation too little credit. They were willing to destroy the entire galaxy just to win.
The fuck is the Dark Empire? Do you mean the Terran Empire?
Total Annihilation still getting some love.
Yeah, basically since the Imperium can even find faction worse than it, T'au is no discussion.
The Tau are colonialism, the faction. Still not as evil as several countries IRL though, not to mention the monsters who serve as villains in sci fi.
Also not mentioned: literally humanity in Dead Space
I always thought the Tau would be really interesting if they showed up in Star Trek, I like the idea of a less-pleasant mirror of the federation that’s nonetheless earnest despite their various atrocities (as opposed to the more-obviously-evil Dominion and Terran Empire). The Ethereals could use a Patrick Stewart speech^TM or two.
You forgot that Zeon dropped a space colony on the Earth to destroy the Federation’s military HQ. Having material outside the anime makes me scratch my head at anything that tried to say the two sides weren’t so different when Zeon immediately resorted to weapons of mass destruction. I am OK with giving humanizing traits to the villains, but I feel like we needed a Andor style moment that reminds us no matter what humanizing traits someone may have, if they keep fighting for such a regime, they are most likely not a good person. 8th MS Team has one of the federation officers advocate for killing every single person who works for Zeon. She is meant to be seen as wrong, but we saw by that point that showing Zeon at the end of the war was a big mistake since they continued their efforts for world domination, including a terrorist plan to kill millions, and later an attempt to cause the apocalypse. It makes my head scratch at the Titans being written as worse when the Zeon have done worse things, and trying to do something about Zeon’s aggression leading to the rise of the Titans gives the under mat the federation was expected to simply keep taking Zeon’s crap.
Tau wouldnt even be the most evil country on earth.
Humanity in Humanity Lost turning themselves into the Tyrannids/Chaos from Warhammer because some aliens said colonialism is bad:
What did you expect? Koprulu Sector is just big Australia shitshow.
The Protoss were only purifying planets that weren’t held by allies. The closest it ever gets to that is an optional mission in Wings of Liberty, where the Protoss attempt to purify the colony of Haven because of a Zerg infestation which Raynor’s Raiders can oppose. Otherwise they’ve only attempted to purify planets held by either neutral or hostile powers, and even then only to halt the spread of the Zerg.
The techno core from Hyperion used humanity as a supercomputer to build a godlike ai and then planned to enslave them in a constant near death state and sent an army of death machines back in time to kill/ cause the destruction of God.
Remebrancer: Are the Tau the most evil faction ever? Adeptus Beatalis : the Tau aren’t even the most faction in 40K
Yo Total Anhilaition shout out let's go
Hey, a Total Annihilation box! Cool!
Evil? Yes. Most evil? No. Any other setting? Neither
Cool, still evil.
The Tau have seen some shit, if they came to any of these galaxies they would probably jump for joy. And when the main evil faction comes for them they would laugh say something like “At least they aren’t drukhari!” And blast them straight back to their homeworld
Listen here Feddie, I will not take this Zeon slander propaganda
British moment
Zeon did nothing wrong.
To be fair, the Starcraft factions did stop doing that after less than a decade, 4 years of which were relatively peaceful. Mengsk, the UED, the Confederacy, the Conclave, Amon, the Overmind, the Queen of Blades and Abathur were the big warmongers and they all got removed from the picture. Only the Tal’Darim is left to potentially cause problems but they seem content after Nova Covert Ops to just keep to themselves
During Covert Ops they only did that because Alarak got angry with the primates from that new group attacked a Tal’darim outpost. Only to turn tail and run before they could retaliate
Put some respect on Dr.Dooms name. He may be a super villian but he cares about his country and its people regardless of who they are or what they can do and he chose to stop being a god because it bored him just to merx thanos seconds actee explaining that to him
At least they’re better than the Federation from starship, Trooper
StarCraft is only genocide from the zerg perspective. The terrans and protoss have no interest in destroying each other, they only fight when one gets in the way of fighting the zerg or another internal enemy. The Zerg, for their part, deserve about as much mercy as the Tyranids.
Old Zerg, yes. Currently they’re more interested in gardening
Yeah but current protoss are even more pacifist because Blizzard doesn't know how to end a storyline without everyone being friends.
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Tbh Satecraft humanity is just Empire but on capitalism. Much more effective, but just as ruthless. So effective it takes 23 sec to train a space marine, 42 to build barracks.
Who are the top left 2 of the final panel?
What's ST's Dark Empire? Google only shows Star Wars things.
*orokin*
They remind me of the Dai Lee and Ba Sing Se like they’re not great but I wouldn’t say super evil, Tau worse than them obviously
The Combine from Half Life are more evil than most factions in 40k
Nice TA reference
**ZEON** MENTIONED !!! ***OUR SOULS ARE NOT WEIGHED DOWN BY GRAVITY !!*** *SIEG ZEON ! SIEG ZEON ! SIEG ZEON ! SIEG ZEON ! SIEG ZEON !*
Funny thing. When I explained the T'Au for my star wars loving sis, she basically told me they act like the Republic in the prequels.
I know the Daleks and Cybermen, who's the other faction on the right of the Daleks?
I was not expecting a reference to the greatest RTS of all time. Peewee rush goes brrrrrrrr
I don’t think anyone really says that, what they say is that the Tau would be A VILLAIN in any other sci fi setting. This is also not completely true but it’s significantly better.
The Tau use smallpox blankets and brainwashing. The whole basis of their conquest-strategy is to use subversion to turn brother against brother, father against son, and ally against ally. And their entire shtick is one, giant Motte-And-Bailey argument.
The harkonnen win the creepy depravity department, ngl. Sickass military too, i love em.
"Are the Tau the evilest faction in science fiction?" "The Tau aren't even the evilest faction in British fiction."
I would say that the T’au are directly comparable to the Cybermen, at least the post 2005 ones. I don’t think it’s fair to put the Daleks up here, since without Davros’ modifications they’re pretty chill.
Blue space commie bad
Tau should have been the truly good guy, for what is more dark that even when you try your best is still not enough.
I think Tau as they are represent an interesting spin on grimdark. While of the other factions are some flavor of elitist, xenophobic, genocidal maniacs, they all wear their colors proudly, and will tell you to their face what they are and what they are about. Tau, on the other hand, are the cloak and dagger, two-faced type of evil. They will try to convince you that in a universe of unapologetic evil, *only they* can be trusted to protect the little guy and fight for *the greater good*. But as soon as you start to buy all of their virtue signaling and you drink the kool-aid, you become a slave to the empire. You are locked into a caste that you can never escape, your family forever condemned to an ultra limited role in society that they will be **severly** punished for attempting to branch out of. "Allies" are mind controlled or otherwise dominated into military service, the ruling caste wields totalitarian power, and the people are just numbers on a spreadsheet, forever churning out resources and materials for those who oppress them. It's very standout amongst the caste (pun) of 40k and I think it adds a lot of flavor to an otherwise kinda one dimensional setting of "everyone is mega-Hitler". I love Tau, I think they are not only one of the most realistic evils in 40k, but also just so well designed that people get to have these discussions I nthe first place. Remember kids, all people are created equal, some are just *more* equal🤗
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Who ever has said that is a lobotomite
I’ve always said it, there Tau would be Star Trek villains, an interesting race who’s militarism and mutispecies tolerance is a mirror to the Star Trek more liberal socialism view of the future.