More context for those who are interested:
Pentomic army composition of as developed by the Americans and some NATO countries during the Cold War, in order to adapt to the possibility of tactical nuclear bombs used on large troop formations. It relied on rapid redeployment speed, firepower matching or surpassing enemy army groups, while reducing the manpower and logistical strain produced by the army.
The idea was to disperse your troops over a (very) wide area to reduce effectiveness of enemy nukes, wait for either your side of the enemy to drop a nuke then rapidly redeploy to the site of the nuking in order to defend from or exploit the breakthrough created by the nuke.
The reasons this did not work is because these divisions over relied on air-based supply to resupply, as there was a fear that the enemy would just nuke any major supply hubs around. And also lack of communication, as individual squads would often be split by major geographic features such as lakes, mountains or rivers, thus reducing their capacity to “rapidly redeploy”.
The French also created a kind of mini pentomic army which was called “Javelot” or javelin, which was based around light tanks and armoured cars, and would be tasked with raiding enemy troop columns as the enemy advanced, and to buy time for larger army formations to be concentrated and organised. Javelot had better control and communication not only because it was a smaller formation, but also because of the increase number of personnel dedicated to administrative duties.
The eldar would have solved these issues because
1: they can just open portals and pass supplies through that
2. Advanced tech allows eldar units to efficiently and instantaneously communicated with all other eldar units, even when separated by large distances or terrain features
3. Eldar vehicles can zoom really fast and ignore troublesome terrain like mud, sand and even water maybe
So basically if the enemy has nukes then you want your dudes to be really spread out so that there aren't any specific spots that would be worth nuking. But you also want your dudes to be really fast in case the enemy uses a nuke anyway and you have to close that big hole in your defenses.
Well this is the exact kind of over analysis that tickles my autism.
As a concept it does seem like this would work for any space borne force. So long as your ships remain un-nuked, your comms and mobility aren't restricted by ground conditions. So you can simply bombard anything you can't or don't want to take intact, and then deploy your forces directly onto the handful of targets worth a ground assault.
Granted, this would lead to a lot less chainsaw sword fights, so I'm happy for Warhammer to keep fighting WW2 with Napoleonic tactics in every book.
>The reasons this did not work is because these divisions over relied on
air-based supply to resupply, as there was a fear that the enemy would
just nuke any major supply hubs around.
I'm pretty sure the reason it did not work is because having a plan that involves getting nuked isn't a great idea
I mean they weren’t planning to get nuked. They were planning in case they got nuked. It’s like saying “well armies no longer fighting in giant infantry blocks napoleon era style because they would get gunned down by machine guns is dumb because that means that you’re planning to get shot up by machine guns”
NATO counties which did plan in case of tactical nukes being used in combat had reason to be worried. Back then due to the policy of mutually assured destruction the two factions (NATO and the Warsaw pact) were pumping out nukes “like sausages” (direct quote from some Soviet leader btw) to guarantee the “assured” bit.
Long story short the nuke is not a mainstay in military combat and pentomic was a failure but in warhammer it might not be since Warhammer has the kind of million-personnel large army group crammed into 6 square kilometres of area kind of war, and wow, see that enormous, obvious, and slow horde of imperial guard over there? Wouldn’t it be nice if you could just blow them away at one go? And you know the imperium will be inept and inefficient at adapting. Do it. Normalise nukes.
Javlot is a tad different, being a cavalry-specific Force within the broader army (as much as that ever applies to French 'cavalry'), and the role they were fulfilling was one that other 'less-pentomic' cavalry would equally be expected to fulfill but holy shit you are so on the money here.
You're right. I have no talent for this, but it would fit for the two Chad's talking to each other meme template, its the Lion and Guilliman
Gman: "I have it from a reliable source (Yvraine) that the Eldar would nuke us before a charge"
Lion: "Yes"
I like the idea, and it's somewhat supported by the lore. The idea behind the eldar being lightly armored and fast is that before the birth of Slaanesh they were effectively immortal. They would die and their soul would reincarnate into a new baby eldar. That's how they saw it, and they were quite fine with dying in combat as a result. This makes them wear less armor and focus on being in general better than anyone else just to show off.
This later adapted into being lightly armored and fast to focus on fire and fade or hit and run tactics once their souls stopped reincarnating. Because that's what they were already good at and it keeps the most amount of people alive, and out of Slaanesh's hold.
That said, it's entirely possible that they would use nukes as part of their old strategies, especially with their disregard for their own lives.
When all your vehicles fly, all your vehicles are at least somewhat sealed and all your personnel wear armored space suits or are magical spaceboner zombies, you can be a lot more liberal with your nukes. Just as the degenerate ancestors intended.
I know they don’t get sealed suits in game but they’ve been waltzing around in bad parts of craftworlds since forever. Or do they get proper suits now?
There’s a whole branch of the US Army whose job is to deal with nuclear, biological and chemical contamination. They’ve got equipment for decontaminating personnel, equipment, vehicles, the whole arsenal. The expectation was that WW3 was going to be fought in irradiated terrain.
Nuclear fallout from nukes isnt as bad as people think unless you're in the epicenter of the blast.
Plus most mechanized/armored formations are fairly resistant to radiation thanks to their metal bawkses.
Yeah, some of the tests they ran said you could drive an M1 Abrams within a quarter mile of a tactical nukes ground zero without any serious issues from fallout. So long as the crew doesn't get out and camp there, they weren't even likely to get long term health risks.
The Soviets tested the theory with 45,000 soldiers during the Totskoye nuclear exercise.
The results are secret… But they also built a memorial for the soldiers at the epicenter of the blast. I think it’s safe to assume it didn’t go well.
Anyway, nuclear warfare and marching through radiation is AdMech’s schtick.
The vast majority (over 90% actually) of the fallout from an airburst dissipates in about 2 days. Only a small fraction of the energy from the reaction actually creates fallout, and only a fraction of that sticks around. If you're safe for the initial minute of the blast, that's already much of the radiation gone
I mean it makes sense, especially when Eldar tech can for sure handle something as simple as radiation. But Warhammer will continue to be written as “medieval charges with guns,” because writers don’t know that tactical, operational, and strategic are all different things.
Medieval charges with guns is the draw, dude. It's fantasy in space.
That's why the armies are paladins, elves, dwarves, orcs, and then, as a special treat, World War 1.
The entire setting is built around making melee viable because it makes it look more like a metal album cover. Don't expect seriousness from the silly war game.
As a counterpoint: Elder can and do actually fight battles without nuclear fire support. Something that Pentomic divisions were basically incapable of.
Counter counterpoint: this is entirely by choice given that Iyanden reverse engineered and mass produced the Fireheart during the Valedor campaign. If the eldar want to blow up your planet, they can blow up your planet. And they dont need air superiority to do it like the imperials.
Yeah, but as I understand it "Pentomic" divisions were meant to fight a nuclear war and *only* a nuclear war. To the extent of being almost useless at any other kind of war.
The fact Eldar *can* fight other kinds of war, and only do the space funni (as NCD would no doubt put it) by choice, not necessity makes them not "Pentomic" by my reckoning.
Eh, it's a tad less black-and-white than that.
Pentomic divisions could fight absent of nuclear weapons, but their Force design was optimized for a nuclear battlefield because that was anticipated to be the most important theatre they would fight in, militarily and politically.
A lot of the forces design considerations were made to be more effective in that particular scenario at the cost of their effectiveness in other circumstances. All Force design does this to an extent, but the pentatonic army was notable in how totally it focused on the nuclear battlefield.
In the absence of nuclear weapons the pentatonic army could still fight, but it would be less capable than an equivalent force not designed for such a specific purpose. You got all the costs of nuclear specialisation without any of the benefits.
As it happens though, the overall design was arguably flawed even for a nuclear battlefield, which is why it was so short lived in US doctrine. However, to be fluffy, a lot of that was down to technological limitations of the time that the eldar mitigate in several ways
They would be a mixture of Elysian Drop troops and Armageddon Steel Legion with their focus on independent maneuver regiments exploiting holes in enemy lines caused by tactical nuclear weapons.
The Pentomic Army was Implemented by the 101st Airborne, known for their operational mobility through air assets, and what is the elder known for? That's right, operational mobility. Is the Eldar the 101st Airborne of 40k? I dunno, I'm just off my meds watching battle order.
The counter point I'd make to this is that the pentomic army structure comes about in large part due to the lack of mechanization within the US Army at the time.
Self-sustaining holdout pockets of divisional resistance was an idea driven by the lack of ability to rapidly concentrate the force from a dispersed posture due to the lack of mechanization and tactical mobility. That's something the eldar excel at.
That being said, I think you can definitely draw a looser parallel to the pentomic structure.
YES! YES! pretty much the exact fucking thing that I've been saying. Any engagement, be it the 'nids, orks would basically involving the Eldar, Tau and Imperials plastering the horizon with a wall of nuclear hellfire before rolling in with their infantry and armor and mopping up the survivors. There is absolutely no reason to not replace HE with nukes, even the imperium can produce 560GT warheads for anti-shipping. Investing the resources taken by A SINGLE torpedo would result in 560 million, 1kt nukes. Even titans won't be standing up to a battery of paladin analogues filling the horizon with canned sunshine. Imagine how many nukes can be produced in place of titans. Even a small warhound weighs 410 tons, with a YtW ratio of 2kt/kg, you could produce 820,000, 1kt nukes in place. These things are going to be WAY MORE useful than titans will ever be.
And no, contrary to popular belief, nukes, when air-burst, leave very little fallout, even the Tsar bomba produced 94% of its energy from the fusion stage, hell, there's no reason to not use anti-matter to trigger the fusion stage instead of fissile material. Bam, no fallout.
Edit: although using "armies" against orcs and Tyranids is the wrong thing to do, these things should be dealt with WMDs before specialist teams roll in and mop the remnants up.
NCD is leaking again.
More context for those who are interested: Pentomic army composition of as developed by the Americans and some NATO countries during the Cold War, in order to adapt to the possibility of tactical nuclear bombs used on large troop formations. It relied on rapid redeployment speed, firepower matching or surpassing enemy army groups, while reducing the manpower and logistical strain produced by the army. The idea was to disperse your troops over a (very) wide area to reduce effectiveness of enemy nukes, wait for either your side of the enemy to drop a nuke then rapidly redeploy to the site of the nuking in order to defend from or exploit the breakthrough created by the nuke. The reasons this did not work is because these divisions over relied on air-based supply to resupply, as there was a fear that the enemy would just nuke any major supply hubs around. And also lack of communication, as individual squads would often be split by major geographic features such as lakes, mountains or rivers, thus reducing their capacity to “rapidly redeploy”. The French also created a kind of mini pentomic army which was called “Javelot” or javelin, which was based around light tanks and armoured cars, and would be tasked with raiding enemy troop columns as the enemy advanced, and to buy time for larger army formations to be concentrated and organised. Javelot had better control and communication not only because it was a smaller formation, but also because of the increase number of personnel dedicated to administrative duties. The eldar would have solved these issues because 1: they can just open portals and pass supplies through that 2. Advanced tech allows eldar units to efficiently and instantaneously communicated with all other eldar units, even when separated by large distances or terrain features 3. Eldar vehicles can zoom really fast and ignore troublesome terrain like mud, sand and even water maybe
Drukhari use voidraven bombers to anti-matter nuke targets, so this 100% checks out for them
they're also so fast and frail they make Asuryani look like Rocks
Jesse what the hell are you talking about?
He. . . he just explained. He just explained all of that. But why male models, though?
Because over 90% of human warfare has been fought by men and the aesthetics of the game copies that trend for the most part.
Found Dorn's account (it was a Zoolander reference you should go watch it it's a funny movie)
No It's Patrick. (The best part about that line is that Ben Stiller legitimately forgot what was actually on the script)
Yessssss clearly you have been informed on the matter of timed attacks. Carry on, citizen
Nothing gets past me. My reflexes are too fast
So basically if the enemy has nukes then you want your dudes to be really spread out so that there aren't any specific spots that would be worth nuking. But you also want your dudes to be really fast in case the enemy uses a nuke anyway and you have to close that big hole in your defenses.
Those are nukes from the 40k universe, one nuke can obliterated a planet, they can't be spread enough to endure that
Cadia begs to differ
Cadia? The planet where everything got rendered useless
The concept still applies, just on a bigger scale.
The space battles are different from ground battles
You just have to avoid putting enough troops on one planet to be worth an Exterminatus.
I like your funny words magic man.
How many scoops?
Add spiked dildos to that and you have adoptees.
Well this is the exact kind of over analysis that tickles my autism. As a concept it does seem like this would work for any space borne force. So long as your ships remain un-nuked, your comms and mobility aren't restricted by ground conditions. So you can simply bombard anything you can't or don't want to take intact, and then deploy your forces directly onto the handful of targets worth a ground assault. Granted, this would lead to a lot less chainsaw sword fights, so I'm happy for Warhammer to keep fighting WW2 with Napoleonic tactics in every book.
battle order viewer
>The reasons this did not work is because these divisions over relied on air-based supply to resupply, as there was a fear that the enemy would just nuke any major supply hubs around. I'm pretty sure the reason it did not work is because having a plan that involves getting nuked isn't a great idea
I mean they weren’t planning to get nuked. They were planning in case they got nuked. It’s like saying “well armies no longer fighting in giant infantry blocks napoleon era style because they would get gunned down by machine guns is dumb because that means that you’re planning to get shot up by machine guns” NATO counties which did plan in case of tactical nukes being used in combat had reason to be worried. Back then due to the policy of mutually assured destruction the two factions (NATO and the Warsaw pact) were pumping out nukes “like sausages” (direct quote from some Soviet leader btw) to guarantee the “assured” bit. Long story short the nuke is not a mainstay in military combat and pentomic was a failure but in warhammer it might not be since Warhammer has the kind of million-personnel large army group crammed into 6 square kilometres of area kind of war, and wow, see that enormous, obvious, and slow horde of imperial guard over there? Wouldn’t it be nice if you could just blow them away at one go? And you know the imperium will be inept and inefficient at adapting. Do it. Normalise nukes.
They would self nuke and then gather if Soviets failed at nuking them.
The air assault doctrine of the 101st works really well with how the Eldar operates. Eldar Swooping Hawks Rakkasan when Geedubs?
Javlot is a tad different, being a cavalry-specific Force within the broader army (as much as that ever applies to French 'cavalry'), and the role they were fulfilling was one that other 'less-pentomic' cavalry would equally be expected to fulfill but holy shit you are so on the money here.
Guiliman talking to Lion circa 30k
Is it the Lion or Guilliman nerding out over Eldar war strategy?
Yes
You're right. I have no talent for this, but it would fit for the two Chad's talking to each other meme template, its the Lion and Guilliman Gman: "I have it from a reliable source (Yvraine) that the Eldar would nuke us before a charge" Lion: "Yes"
I like the idea, and it's somewhat supported by the lore. The idea behind the eldar being lightly armored and fast is that before the birth of Slaanesh they were effectively immortal. They would die and their soul would reincarnate into a new baby eldar. That's how they saw it, and they were quite fine with dying in combat as a result. This makes them wear less armor and focus on being in general better than anyone else just to show off. This later adapted into being lightly armored and fast to focus on fire and fade or hit and run tactics once their souls stopped reincarnating. Because that's what they were already good at and it keeps the most amount of people alive, and out of Slaanesh's hold. That said, it's entirely possible that they would use nukes as part of their old strategies, especially with their disregard for their own lives.
and "light armour" is still a bit nicer than what the guard wear, and Aspect armour significantly so, some even have a 3+ like Marines!
Wait where do I find this info?
One of the codexes, I think. I couldn't tell you which one.
The Eldar's high speed is also perfect for assassinating Ork warbosses.
Biel Tan is definitely using this
What? Nuke something, then send infantry through the "weakened" area, that by the way is absolutely coated in nuclear fallout? Good plan Custer.
When all your vehicles fly, all your vehicles are at least somewhat sealed and all your personnel wear armored space suits or are magical spaceboner zombies, you can be a lot more liberal with your nukes. Just as the degenerate ancestors intended. I know they don’t get sealed suits in game but they’ve been waltzing around in bad parts of craftworlds since forever. Or do they get proper suits now?
There’s a whole branch of the US Army whose job is to deal with nuclear, biological and chemical contamination. They’ve got equipment for decontaminating personnel, equipment, vehicles, the whole arsenal. The expectation was that WW3 was going to be fought in irradiated terrain.
Nuclear fallout from nukes isnt as bad as people think unless you're in the epicenter of the blast. Plus most mechanized/armored formations are fairly resistant to radiation thanks to their metal bawkses.
Yeah, some of the tests they ran said you could drive an M1 Abrams within a quarter mile of a tactical nukes ground zero without any serious issues from fallout. So long as the crew doesn't get out and camp there, they weren't even likely to get long term health risks.
The Soviets tested the theory with 45,000 soldiers during the Totskoye nuclear exercise. The results are secret… But they also built a memorial for the soldiers at the epicenter of the blast. I think it’s safe to assume it didn’t go well. Anyway, nuclear warfare and marching through radiation is AdMech’s schtick.
That's messed up, I get the AdMech doing it, but yeah didn't think anyone on Earth would have thought that was a good gamble.
Ideally not straight through, like somewhere on the edge of the blast radius.
The vast majority (over 90% actually) of the fallout from an airburst dissipates in about 2 days. Only a small fraction of the energy from the reaction actually creates fallout, and only a fraction of that sticks around. If you're safe for the initial minute of the blast, that's already much of the radiation gone
I mean it makes sense, especially when Eldar tech can for sure handle something as simple as radiation. But Warhammer will continue to be written as “medieval charges with guns,” because writers don’t know that tactical, operational, and strategic are all different things.
Medieval charges with guns is the draw, dude. It's fantasy in space. That's why the armies are paladins, elves, dwarves, orcs, and then, as a special treat, World War 1. The entire setting is built around making melee viable because it makes it look more like a metal album cover. Don't expect seriousness from the silly war game.
Are you saying a fight with the Eldar would be like that fight scene from Dune 2? I don't know what I'm going to do with that information...
As a counterpoint: Elder can and do actually fight battles without nuclear fire support. Something that Pentomic divisions were basically incapable of.
Counter counterpoint: this is entirely by choice given that Iyanden reverse engineered and mass produced the Fireheart during the Valedor campaign. If the eldar want to blow up your planet, they can blow up your planet. And they dont need air superiority to do it like the imperials.
Yeah, but as I understand it "Pentomic" divisions were meant to fight a nuclear war and *only* a nuclear war. To the extent of being almost useless at any other kind of war. The fact Eldar *can* fight other kinds of war, and only do the space funni (as NCD would no doubt put it) by choice, not necessity makes them not "Pentomic" by my reckoning.
but they don't care about your planet... unless they want it, then they don't blow it up
Eh, it's a tad less black-and-white than that. Pentomic divisions could fight absent of nuclear weapons, but their Force design was optimized for a nuclear battlefield because that was anticipated to be the most important theatre they would fight in, militarily and politically. A lot of the forces design considerations were made to be more effective in that particular scenario at the cost of their effectiveness in other circumstances. All Force design does this to an extent, but the pentatonic army was notable in how totally it focused on the nuclear battlefield. In the absence of nuclear weapons the pentatonic army could still fight, but it would be less capable than an equivalent force not designed for such a specific purpose. You got all the costs of nuclear specialisation without any of the benefits. As it happens though, the overall design was arguably flawed even for a nuclear battlefield, which is why it was so short lived in US doctrine. However, to be fluffy, a lot of that was down to technological limitations of the time that the eldar mitigate in several ways
Crap now I want to make a pentomic army inspired guard regiment.
They would be a mixture of Elysian Drop troops and Armageddon Steel Legion with their focus on independent maneuver regiments exploiting holes in enemy lines caused by tactical nuclear weapons.
The Pentomic Army was Implemented by the 101st Airborne, known for their operational mobility through air assets, and what is the elder known for? That's right, operational mobility. Is the Eldar the 101st Airborne of 40k? I dunno, I'm just off my meds watching battle order.
The worms are getting louder.
That kinda explains a lot ngl 😮
A pentomic division sounds exactly like something one of the more unhinged Imperial Guard regiments with more exotic ordnance than sense would try.
Remember when Eldar used mobile teleportation gates instead of transports?
It's sort of what the Tau uses, just without the nukes but a lot more bombs
The counter point I'd make to this is that the pentomic army structure comes about in large part due to the lack of mechanization within the US Army at the time. Self-sustaining holdout pockets of divisional resistance was an idea driven by the lack of ability to rapidly concentrate the force from a dispersed posture due to the lack of mechanization and tactical mobility. That's something the eldar excel at. That being said, I think you can definitely draw a looser parallel to the pentomic structure.
YES! YES! pretty much the exact fucking thing that I've been saying. Any engagement, be it the 'nids, orks would basically involving the Eldar, Tau and Imperials plastering the horizon with a wall of nuclear hellfire before rolling in with their infantry and armor and mopping up the survivors. There is absolutely no reason to not replace HE with nukes, even the imperium can produce 560GT warheads for anti-shipping. Investing the resources taken by A SINGLE torpedo would result in 560 million, 1kt nukes. Even titans won't be standing up to a battery of paladin analogues filling the horizon with canned sunshine. Imagine how many nukes can be produced in place of titans. Even a small warhound weighs 410 tons, with a YtW ratio of 2kt/kg, you could produce 820,000, 1kt nukes in place. These things are going to be WAY MORE useful than titans will ever be. And no, contrary to popular belief, nukes, when air-burst, leave very little fallout, even the Tsar bomba produced 94% of its energy from the fusion stage, hell, there's no reason to not use anti-matter to trigger the fusion stage instead of fissile material. Bam, no fallout. Edit: although using "armies" against orcs and Tyranids is the wrong thing to do, these things should be dealt with WMDs before specialist teams roll in and mop the remnants up.