Wasn't this also going to happen to Bridget Sloan at the 2008 Olympics, but she ended up being used because Sam Peszek was injured at the last moment, and Chellsie Memmel was also injured?
No Bridget was always going to go on at least bars in quals.
Despite Sam's weird assertion these days that she was going to/wanted to go on 3 events in TF, it's likely it would've been her doing 0 events in TF.
Even with Chellie injured what 3 events was she going to go on? Why on earth would they put her on beam over Alicia who was 4th in the world in quals? Shawn beat her handily on bars. Maybe floor but Alicia was still Alicia and Bridget put up a great routine in quals and Sam had already lost the silvias by training camp.
It was just a weird thing for her to say. It was very Shawn saying she was the youngest on the team coded
She actually beat Alicia both days at trials, but she ought to have been able to how Alicia was doing in training and recognise that she wasn’t going to outscore her in quals.
I think that’s just about possible as she was in the same ballpark as Alicia on beam based on trials scores, but possibly not on general performance/reputation/experience. On floor she had a lower peak than Alicia, but whilst they didn’t use Bridget on floor when she beat Alicia in quals, I think Sam might have been considered with similar scores as she was more experienced internationally. If she were considering scores alone she might have thought it possible.
Realistically, Alicia was on fire on beam by the time she got to the Olympics, so that wasn’t happening.
Floor scores were down for the Americans at the Olympics, but this affected Nastia less (Bridget actually went up from trials, but I haven’t dredged up other scores from that year), so pre Olympics you’d have thought Shawn plus any two of Chellsie, Alicia, Sam, Nastia. Then post Chellsie’s injury two of the remainder.
Bridget would have always competed something in qualifying as it was 6-5-4, in the end ALL her scores counted in qualifying as her and Sam Peszek tied on bars and Sam’s was the one dropped.
Without being there we can’t know if there was an intention to use Sam over her on VT in finals, I think they’d have give with who qualified best. They really should have used her on floor in finals.
If we’re going with just people sitting out of finals, that was the almost the norm in 6-3-3 finals. In Beijing 5 teams used all six members but that’s less than most worlds finals from that era. Two teams used five members and one used only four.
At 2010 world six teams used five gymnasts and everyone thought it should have been 7 (Mattie Larsen went on floor when Bridget Sloan and Mackenzie Caquatto beat her in qualifying). That might be the starkest opposite, but federations in general never really gave FIG a great reason to stick to six member teams after the Olympics went to five.
That's not correct. Steve Penny wanted Maroney to compete AA because she was the only pro gymnast on the squad, so because he couldn't get Biles or Ross taken out of the AA to make room for her, Dowell didn't get to compete any events in qualifying.
That would be 2015.
In 2013 she was named to the four person team, but Mckayla Maroney did AA as well as Simone and Kyla, so she didn’t compete at all. That might have been a bad choice in the long run given she could have contributed in 2015 had quals gone better, but at the time it seemed like an opportunity Maroney had earned and had things gone differently could have paid off for team USA. I suspect in 2013 most of us would have put more money on her being on the 2015 team.
At 2011 worlds, Alicia Sacramone injured her achilles during podium training and Marta just didn’t name the alternate to the team and they competed with one fewer gymnast.
I think this was a really smart decision (if I believed it were a decision with relevant things in mind, it’s more of a good consequence for the wrong reasons). You could have given Anna Li the spot as she’d definitely beaten multiple members of that team on bars, anyone but Jordyn Wieber and Gabby Douglas, probably McKayla Maroney.
Do you then take Gabby off beam? Maybe.
Do you focus on the future? Four new seniors, plus second year senior Aly Raisman?
You go with the new kids, you put Gabby up last on beam so she doesn’t have any pressure. They rank 2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th and 12th in the AA qualifying. Gabby had her confidence built up and wins Olympic gold. Sabrina Vega who missed bars both days at champs contributes a solid score on bars in the team finals. They are more than four points ahead of Russia, best case scenario adding Anna Li to the team adds 0.6-0.7.
I suspect it was all done for the wrong reasons, giving Alicia that extra medal that no longer has any meaning, but if you had a crystal ball it’s what you’d do.
At the time I felt they should have made sure Shawn Johnson (non travelling alternate) was in Japan, but looking at it now on that team you had 4 vaulters (ideally you wouldn’t use Sabrina Vega in a final), 3 bars workers (you don’t want Aly and McKayla near them in a team final), 3/4 beamers (not McKayla and at that point not Gabby) and 2 floor workers (by usual USA standards you’d only want to use Jordyn and Aly, but the other three were so close you could use any of them), so the places you wouldn’t actually have a use for her that Anna couldn’t fill in.
As far as I know, qualified teams are entitled to the allotted number of team members and can use or not use them however they wish. I can think of times when team members haven’t done any routines in team finals, but I can’t think of a time that a team member hasn’t done any routines in competition, including qualifications.
Yep, and that's not uncommon. Back when there were 6 on a team, probably the majority of medal winning countries benched someone in TFs who'd competed in prelims.
Infuriating to think how much more she could have done had she not been overtrained to breaking point leading up to this. I'm sure one of the girls said later they didn't have a day off training for over a month. She and Chellsie deserved so much more!
She was never likely to compete much in Beijing. If everyone was healthy, the team final spots on beam and floor would have been three of Memmel, Sacramone, Liukin, and Johnson, likely depending on who was scoring better in prelims. The bars top three was clearly Memmel, Liukin, and Johnson. And vault was Johnson and Sacramone, with the third spot between Peszek and Sloan. She wasn’t any better in 2008 than she was in 2007 where she only did vault in team finals, but the 2007 team had didn’t have Sloan so the vault TF spot was more clearcut.
I feel like Peszek’s post-gymnastics career in commentating and podcasting has led to some revisionist history about her elite career, where she was a steady but not spectacular all arounder, who only made the world and Olympic team because the US team wasn’t that deep and some of the people who theoretically could have filled the US hole on bars were too young.
I also wonder how much influence her mom’s role at USAG had in her domestic scoring and in her being selected for teams.
She was hardly going to be the AA star on a healthy team, that's for sure. But she worked hard to get there and it's sad she got minimal chance to compete because of an injury that could have been avoided with appropriate levels of training rather than grinding them all to the bone.
Yes - Sam declined in every meet in 2008 from Nationals to Trials to final camp. She wouldn’t have done more than vault in the team final and vault and bars in the qualifying. By the Olympics, Bridget was peaking and was better than Sam on every event but maybe vault.
technically you could - if you bring a gymnast who isn't top 3 on any event (e.g. Leanne Wong) but there is reason to bring them anyway as a 'built-in reserve'. but would be odd to not use them on any event to not tire out your top gymnasts & if there is sufficient gap between you and the next team below. I do think the federations would still bring a 5th gymnast to 1. be an alternate or 2. bring a specialist to maximise medal count.
Courtney McCool in the 04 Olympics. She was not in the top 3 in any events and dis not compete at all in 04.
If you watch the quals they talk about her being a big star at the Olympics but that never happened.
Although they probably should have used her in bars over Carly.
You can - you can compete with only 3 / 4 if there are injuries.
Until Mara Ceplinschi came through in trials today with a massive floor specialist score, you could have made a point for bringing the top 4 all-arounders for Romania to Euros, putting them all up for quals AA, and then only using the top 3 AA for finals apart from a single routine.
That would actually have maximised the score both times, in theory!
You certainly can since 92 (where everyone competed) but I can't find any instances. The closest I can think of
Although they did compete in quals both Acatrinei and Grigorei didn't compete at all in TF (and Dragoi only did bars) in 2008 because of basically the scenario you described, except of course bars lol. Nistor and Annamaria were the best AAs and with Isbaza had the stop scores on every event, they just needed a bar routine
There was greek gymnast who never competed any compulsories, I guess she was bad at them but did compete optionals.
Of course, it’s usually due to injury at the last minute, as it would rarely make sense to plan to do it.
Romania competed with only 6 at the 7-6-5 format Atlanta Olympics, but I don’t know what happened to their 7th gymnast.
Ukraine men’s team finals in Rio was a mess. They wanted to save Oleg for individual competitions but then IIRC someone got hurt and they didn’t even put 3 gymnasts on each event (when they could have used Oleg more). It left a bad taste in a lot of mouths and they ended up apologizing to team Switzerland who was next in line for team finals. Australia did something similar at worlds last year, but it was planned. They used everyone but didn’t put up 3 on each event in prelims.
The Alicia 2011 example is probably the most relevant to your question though. I believe Romania did something similar in 2015 too and that obviously did not work out for them.
Sorry, I just saw this. I believe it was a statement attributed to Oleg Vernaiv but I don’t remember if it was tweets, or if it was in a news article etc. I’m not sure if they actually apologized face to face or just through a media statement. I’m guessing just the statement.
Brenna Dowell has entered the chat. ^((She was named to the 2013 Worlds team, but didn't get to compete at all))
Wasn't this also going to happen to Bridget Sloan at the 2008 Olympics, but she ended up being used because Sam Peszek was injured at the last moment, and Chellsie Memmel was also injured?
No Bridget was always going to go on at least bars in quals. Despite Sam's weird assertion these days that she was going to/wanted to go on 3 events in TF, it's likely it would've been her doing 0 events in TF.
Sam probably means she was going to go in 3 events because Chellsie was injured, not that it was the original plan.
Even with Chellie injured what 3 events was she going to go on? Why on earth would they put her on beam over Alicia who was 4th in the world in quals? Shawn beat her handily on bars. Maybe floor but Alicia was still Alicia and Bridget put up a great routine in quals and Sam had already lost the silvias by training camp. It was just a weird thing for her to say. It was very Shawn saying she was the youngest on the team coded
She actually beat Alicia both days at trials, but she ought to have been able to how Alicia was doing in training and recognise that she wasn’t going to outscore her in quals.
I think that’s just about possible as she was in the same ballpark as Alicia on beam based on trials scores, but possibly not on general performance/reputation/experience. On floor she had a lower peak than Alicia, but whilst they didn’t use Bridget on floor when she beat Alicia in quals, I think Sam might have been considered with similar scores as she was more experienced internationally. If she were considering scores alone she might have thought it possible. Realistically, Alicia was on fire on beam by the time she got to the Olympics, so that wasn’t happening. Floor scores were down for the Americans at the Olympics, but this affected Nastia less (Bridget actually went up from trials, but I haven’t dredged up other scores from that year), so pre Olympics you’d have thought Shawn plus any two of Chellsie, Alicia, Sam, Nastia. Then post Chellsie’s injury two of the remainder.
Bridget would have always competed something in qualifying as it was 6-5-4, in the end ALL her scores counted in qualifying as her and Sam Peszek tied on bars and Sam’s was the one dropped. Without being there we can’t know if there was an intention to use Sam over her on VT in finals, I think they’d have give with who qualified best. They really should have used her on floor in finals. If we’re going with just people sitting out of finals, that was the almost the norm in 6-3-3 finals. In Beijing 5 teams used all six members but that’s less than most worlds finals from that era. Two teams used five members and one used only four. At 2010 world six teams used five gymnasts and everyone thought it should have been 7 (Mattie Larsen went on floor when Bridget Sloan and Mackenzie Caquatto beat her in qualifying). That might be the starkest opposite, but federations in general never really gave FIG a great reason to stick to six member teams after the Olympics went to five.
She did get to compete in quals, but she didn't do that well and Marta didn't even let her on the competition floor during finals.
That was 2015. In 2013 she wasn't allowed to compete at all in quals
Ugh, it seems so pointlessly cruel to keep her away from the competition floor.
That's not correct. Steve Penny wanted Maroney to compete AA because she was the only pro gymnast on the squad, so because he couldn't get Biles or Ross taken out of the AA to make room for her, Dowell didn't get to compete any events in qualifying.
I thought it said 2015, not 2013. It was early over here...
Basically, Brenna Dowell got screwed over on multiple occasions.
At least she got the double front pike named after her. She seemed to be the most convenient scapegoat.
And I’ve never heard anything contradicting that she is a sweet and kind and lovely person. Martha just had it out for her.
That would be 2015. In 2013 she was named to the four person team, but Mckayla Maroney did AA as well as Simone and Kyla, so she didn’t compete at all. That might have been a bad choice in the long run given she could have contributed in 2015 had quals gone better, but at the time it seemed like an opportunity Maroney had earned and had things gone differently could have paid off for team USA. I suspect in 2013 most of us would have put more money on her being on the 2015 team.
At 2011 worlds, Alicia Sacramone injured her achilles during podium training and Marta just didn’t name the alternate to the team and they competed with one fewer gymnast.
I think this was a really smart decision (if I believed it were a decision with relevant things in mind, it’s more of a good consequence for the wrong reasons). You could have given Anna Li the spot as she’d definitely beaten multiple members of that team on bars, anyone but Jordyn Wieber and Gabby Douglas, probably McKayla Maroney. Do you then take Gabby off beam? Maybe. Do you focus on the future? Four new seniors, plus second year senior Aly Raisman? You go with the new kids, you put Gabby up last on beam so she doesn’t have any pressure. They rank 2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th and 12th in the AA qualifying. Gabby had her confidence built up and wins Olympic gold. Sabrina Vega who missed bars both days at champs contributes a solid score on bars in the team finals. They are more than four points ahead of Russia, best case scenario adding Anna Li to the team adds 0.6-0.7. I suspect it was all done for the wrong reasons, giving Alicia that extra medal that no longer has any meaning, but if you had a crystal ball it’s what you’d do. At the time I felt they should have made sure Shawn Johnson (non travelling alternate) was in Japan, but looking at it now on that team you had 4 vaulters (ideally you wouldn’t use Sabrina Vega in a final), 3 bars workers (you don’t want Aly and McKayla near them in a team final), 3/4 beamers (not McKayla and at that point not Gabby) and 2 floor workers (by usual USA standards you’d only want to use Jordyn and Aly, but the other three were so close you could use any of them), so the places you wouldn’t actually have a use for her that Anna couldn’t fill in.
Yes you can. In theory you could name 5 gymnasts and only use 3, though that would be a very weird, risky decision.
As far as I know, qualified teams are entitled to the allotted number of team members and can use or not use them however they wish. I can think of times when team members haven’t done any routines in team finals, but I can’t think of a time that a team member hasn’t done any routines in competition, including qualifications.
Like you said, it’s an extremely unlikely scenario, but it’s not against the rules. A team would always take a 5th member just in case of injury
didn’t this happen to sam pezeck?
she technically did quals but was injured during quals warmup
She competed on [bars in qualifications](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2H7sblbY6I).
Yep, and that's not uncommon. Back when there were 6 on a team, probably the majority of medal winning countries benched someone in TFs who'd competed in prelims.
In 04 Courtney McCool competed in quals but didn’t have a very good showing, so she wasn’t used in team finals at all
I agree. I think even if the entire 2008 had been healthy, either Sam or Bridget could have not been used during TF.
Ah, so she did! I remember I was surprised at the time they didn’t use her on the beam.
Infuriating to think how much more she could have done had she not been overtrained to breaking point leading up to this. I'm sure one of the girls said later they didn't have a day off training for over a month. She and Chellsie deserved so much more!
She was never likely to compete much in Beijing. If everyone was healthy, the team final spots on beam and floor would have been three of Memmel, Sacramone, Liukin, and Johnson, likely depending on who was scoring better in prelims. The bars top three was clearly Memmel, Liukin, and Johnson. And vault was Johnson and Sacramone, with the third spot between Peszek and Sloan. She wasn’t any better in 2008 than she was in 2007 where she only did vault in team finals, but the 2007 team had didn’t have Sloan so the vault TF spot was more clearcut. I feel like Peszek’s post-gymnastics career in commentating and podcasting has led to some revisionist history about her elite career, where she was a steady but not spectacular all arounder, who only made the world and Olympic team because the US team wasn’t that deep and some of the people who theoretically could have filled the US hole on bars were too young. I also wonder how much influence her mom’s role at USAG had in her domestic scoring and in her being selected for teams.
She was hardly going to be the AA star on a healthy team, that's for sure. But she worked hard to get there and it's sad she got minimal chance to compete because of an injury that could have been avoided with appropriate levels of training rather than grinding them all to the bone.
Yes - Sam declined in every meet in 2008 from Nationals to Trials to final camp. She wouldn’t have done more than vault in the team final and vault and bars in the qualifying. By the Olympics, Bridget was peaking and was better than Sam on every event but maybe vault.
technically you could - if you bring a gymnast who isn't top 3 on any event (e.g. Leanne Wong) but there is reason to bring them anyway as a 'built-in reserve'. but would be odd to not use them on any event to not tire out your top gymnasts & if there is sufficient gap between you and the next team below. I do think the federations would still bring a 5th gymnast to 1. be an alternate or 2. bring a specialist to maximise medal count.
Courtney McCool in the 04 Olympics. She was not in the top 3 in any events and dis not compete at all in 04. If you watch the quals they talk about her being a big star at the Olympics but that never happened. Although they probably should have used her in bars over Carly.
Romanian team basically used 3/6 of their gymnasts for the team final in Beijing
You can - you can compete with only 3 / 4 if there are injuries. Until Mara Ceplinschi came through in trials today with a massive floor specialist score, you could have made a point for bringing the top 4 all-arounders for Romania to Euros, putting them all up for quals AA, and then only using the top 3 AA for finals apart from a single routine. That would actually have maximised the score both times, in theory!
You certainly can since 92 (where everyone competed) but I can't find any instances. The closest I can think of Although they did compete in quals both Acatrinei and Grigorei didn't compete at all in TF (and Dragoi only did bars) in 2008 because of basically the scenario you described, except of course bars lol. Nistor and Annamaria were the best AAs and with Isbaza had the stop scores on every event, they just needed a bar routine There was greek gymnast who never competed any compulsories, I guess she was bad at them but did compete optionals.
This is against the rules in some sports, but not gymnastics.
Of course, it’s usually due to injury at the last minute, as it would rarely make sense to plan to do it. Romania competed with only 6 at the 7-6-5 format Atlanta Olympics, but I don’t know what happened to their 7th gymnast.
Ukraine men’s team finals in Rio was a mess. They wanted to save Oleg for individual competitions but then IIRC someone got hurt and they didn’t even put 3 gymnasts on each event (when they could have used Oleg more). It left a bad taste in a lot of mouths and they ended up apologizing to team Switzerland who was next in line for team finals. Australia did something similar at worlds last year, but it was planned. They used everyone but didn’t put up 3 on each event in prelims. The Alicia 2011 example is probably the most relevant to your question though. I believe Romania did something similar in 2015 too and that obviously did not work out for them.
Just curious, where could I find out about them apologising to Team Switzerland? :)
Sorry, I just saw this. I believe it was a statement attributed to Oleg Vernaiv but I don’t remember if it was tweets, or if it was in a news article etc. I’m not sure if they actually apologized face to face or just through a media statement. I’m guessing just the statement.