Yeah I think if the question is "grown from eggs to Olympians" Hill is the answer.
Karolyi had more but so many of them only passed through his gym in the Olympic year or came from somewhere else with a lot of their fundamental skills. like McNamara was there for about a year, Brandy Johnson was there for only months, Chelle Stack was gone pretty quickly, and if you look at Okino's pre Karolyi gymnastics she had a lot of her great qualities before them.
There are a lot of issues with Hill, but if you are looking for a sustained partnership with multiple gymnasts over decades... it's her.
Kelli Hill seems to genuinely care about her athletes and their goals, I’ll give her a lot of credit for that. I’m not going to say she didn’t abuse athletes along the way.
The Landis didn't "make" Simone Biles but she definitely credits them with helping guide her successful return to elite. Her career could very well have ended after the Tokyo TF disaster, and their coaching was key in getting her through to the Tokyo beam EF, her Worlds comeback, and (god willing) the Paris Olympics.
How are you defining "more US Olympians". If you mean Jordan she also started somewhere else. She improved massively there and I think the Landi's deserve a lot of credit for that but you do your argument no favors by framing it this way.
You are the one overcomplicating everything. By “coached more us olympians” i literally mean they were the coaches of 3 athletes - so far - at the olympics. not sure how much simpler it can be.
What? She switched to Chow because she felt she could get what she needed from him as a coach more than her original gym. It's not like she switched to him right before 2012.
This was well-known when it happened but no, I don't have a source for something that happened 12+ years ago. I'm not being a hater, but Gabby hasn't been well-liked in the gym community, even prior to 2016 because allegations that her family didn't pay the gyms she trained at.
I’m not going to give him the prize, only because he seems like a “one trick pony”. If you were a bars specialist and not particularly strong enough to be a great vaulter, you’re probably not getting far with him.
He was really careful about stretching, and valued conditioning. Not bad things! But if you were really flexible and couldn’t handle Brestyan legs you weren’t going anywhere with him.
I think in some ways they’re similar but also VERY different in striking ways. Alicia had a lot more style and better form, IMO. But Aly could do bars and more difficulty consistently. I love both of their gymnastics but I definitely see differences.
I don't particularly like Alicia as a gymnast, but she was a great vaulter and when she had music that worked for her (c.f. 2011), she really did have some lovely expressive artistry on floor. Aly... tried? (Though I did like her 'Hava Nagila' routine quite a lot. At least she put the effort in!)
Yes, but Alica stopping her training on bars was more of a tactical move. That's not really a big enough difference imo to add to an argument that they weren't almost exactly the same as gymmasts.
Steering outside the US for a second, in the UK Molly + Joshua Richardson have proved quite successful (two Olympians in the Gadirovas with a very likely 3rd in Ondine who I hope stays healthy till then 🙏), but it’s a bit too early to speak of their legacy since they’re younger than most head coaches and the UK lacks depth so who knows what will happen.
IIRC it was not necessarily the coaching style or technical elements but Kyla made national team before Maroney did so they were gone with her at camps a lot and she wanted somebody who would be there with her and not traveling. I don’t recall her having anything actually negative to say about them otherwise tho I could be wrong!
Yes, I didn't mean to imply she had any ill will towards them, just that they didn't seem to have the capacity to train more than one Olympic-track gymnast at a time. To pursue her Olympic dreams Maroney had to go elsewhere, so I'm not sure they could be considered "Olympian makers".
I give Al Fong and the Landis my vote. Why? They seem to the coaches that can coach any body type/style. Most coaches seem to produce athletes that are similar in abilities. Like Alicia and Aly, for example. Al Fong had Brenna Dowell, Courtney McCool and Terin Humphrey. You wouldn’t have guessed they were from the same gym. Same with the Landis.
Al may kinda suck as a human from what I’ve heard, but that wasn’t the question.
Al is a weirdo and a questionable human but their gym does a TON of drill based training so most of their gymnasts have great technique. He posts great videos about different drills they do frequently. I would have qualms about sending a kid there because of the other stuff but like just purely from a technical standpoint I think that’s why they have succeeded with many body types and styles.
Yes, he and Armine are some of the best technical coaches in the country. (Now, whether they are good at *constructing* routines is a different question entirely - spoiler alert, they are not - but in terms of skills and mechanics it's hard to get much better.)
This is why I think Kelli Hill is the answer here. Had many gymnasts from very early in their development (as others have pointed out), but they were also SO different. Going from Dawes to Ray alone was a massive change in style. I give her credit for coaching them as individuals.
I remember Betty Okino saying in her Gymcastic interview that she realizes now that as a taller gymnast she would’ve been better suited to twisting skills. But full twisting double backs were the standard of the day and the Karolyis coached everyone the same way.
I’d rather not give Fong credit for anything (even though he does produce gymnasts with beautiful form…)
Viktor Gavrichenkov -- Elena Shushunova and Natalia Ziganshina.
Vladislav Rastorotsky -- Ludmila Tourischeva, Natalia Shaposhnikova. (If you count the '84 Alternative Games, Natalia Yurchenko)
EDIT to add Adrian Goreac -- Ecaterina Szabo and Daniela Silivas.
Biles already had 4 Olympic gold medals before she was coached by the Landis. Just because she has a positive relationship with them at one point in her career doesn't mean they "made" her.
Yeah I think a solid argument can be made for Jordan because she might have been a senior but the work they did together with her is so transformative.
Are we leaving Bela out because of what we have learned? Because Nadia, Mary Lou, Zmeskal, Moceanu, Strug. He may not be the greatest human being ever (and I've seen others mentioned like Fong) but he did coach champions.
Liukin broke Rebecca Bross, Ohashi and almost broke his own daughter before the Olympics. Had Nastia not been his daughter, I don't think he would have calmed down on the upgrades on the leg events.
He also broke the Brazilian team when he coached them. Didn't manage to get Vanessa Atler to the Olympics after she switch to woga...
Other than Nastia, none of his other elites made it that far. His business partner Marchenko is credited with most of the successful gymnasts that came out of WOGA.
Kelli Hill (Dawes, Kupets, possibly DiCello) ETA: Also Ray, thanks u/freifraufischer! Also Mary Lee Tracy (Borden, Phelps, White)
Elise Ray also was a Hill gymnast.
....and literally my favorite of that entire quad, how did I forget about her?? \[headdesk\]
Yeah I think if the question is "grown from eggs to Olympians" Hill is the answer. Karolyi had more but so many of them only passed through his gym in the Olympic year or came from somewhere else with a lot of their fundamental skills. like McNamara was there for about a year, Brandy Johnson was there for only months, Chelle Stack was gone pretty quickly, and if you look at Okino's pre Karolyi gymnastics she had a lot of her great qualities before them. There are a lot of issues with Hill, but if you are looking for a sustained partnership with multiple gymnasts over decades... it's her.
Lothrop was also an Alternate. So her athletes factored into 6 of the last 8 teams. Might be 7 of 9...
Kelli Hill has also coached many standout Level 10s. And of course I can’t think of any other than Anya Pilgrim.
She also coached Corrie Lothrop who was an alternate for the 2008 team!
And Ava Piedrahitha at Penn state!
Kelli Hill seems to genuinely care about her athletes and their goals, I’ll give her a lot of credit for that. I’m not going to say she didn’t abuse athletes along the way.
Kytra Hunter and Corey Hartung also came from Hills.
Liang Chow (Johnson and Douglas), and you mentioned, and the Landis (Biles, Chiles, Kocian) come to mind
Idk why I have it in my head that Kocian was trained by Marchenko, but you're absolutely right.
Kocian is absolutely a Landi gymnast. It's really striking when you look at her bars next to their other bars students.
I guess my mind initially rejected the idea of associating them with a bars specialist besides Zoe lol
Try to find her floor before she was injured. She was a really remarkable potential AAer but then an ankle injury happened.
Oh wow that's like night and day compared to the floor routines I remember from her.
Yeah it's kind of heart breaking. But hey she's got olympic and world medals at least...
That injury was particularly gnarly too (if it's the one I'm thinking of, during 2013 Nationals).
It was. Like it's not one I want to go back and watch again.
I was heartbroken watching that. I loved that floor- the pistolero music was great
Yeah when I went looking for a routine pre-injury I didn't look back far enough and found it. I have no idea how she finished that routine.
I can't express how much I hate the ankle joint. They do so much sketchy bullshit on a regular basis.
She actually was quite good on floor even at UCLA when she wasn’t injured which was basically never.
maybe you’re confusing her with Carly? Marchenko was her coach
I honestly forgot that the Landis were at WOGA lol
The Landis don't get credit for "making" Simone Biles. They're very good coaches and she has a good relationship but... no.
The Landis didn't "make" Simone Biles but she definitely credits them with helping guide her successful return to elite. Her career could very well have ended after the Tokyo TF disaster, and their coaching was key in getting her through to the Tokyo beam EF, her Worlds comeback, and (god willing) the Paris Olympics.
well the landis have still coached more US olympians than Chow, so if Chow makes the list then the Landis should
Both Johnson and Douglas started, or near started, their elite careers with Chow though, while the Landis only did that for Kocian.
Douglas was definitely an elite before chow she was with Excalibur…she became elite in 2008 and didn’t move to Chow’s following the season in 2010.
Yes, but that's still pretty early in her elite career, and it's clear it was Chow that unlocked her potential, so I'll give him this one.
How are you defining "more US Olympians". If you mean Jordan she also started somewhere else. She improved massively there and I think the Landi's deserve a lot of credit for that but you do your argument no favors by framing it this way.
You are the one overcomplicating everything. By “coached more us olympians” i literally mean they were the coaches of 3 athletes - so far - at the olympics. not sure how much simpler it can be.
I guess I'm pushing back because if you make it that simple the answer is Bela Karolyi by miles. He had 10 US Olympians between 1984 and 1996.
Gabby Douglas switched to Chow last minute because no one else would take her. Does that really count?
Yes? Gabby drastically improved under Chow.
What? She switched to Chow because she felt she could get what she needed from him as a coach more than her original gym. It's not like she switched to him right before 2012.
Got receipts on “no one else would take her”? Or we just being a hater.
This was well-known when it happened but no, I don't have a source for something that happened 12+ years ago. I'm not being a hater, but Gabby hasn't been well-liked in the gym community, even prior to 2016 because allegations that her family didn't pay the gyms she trained at.
I’m not being a hater, BUT here’s another accusation with no receipts 🤗
Mihai Brestyan with Aly Raisman and Alicia Sacramone
I’m not going to give him the prize, only because he seems like a “one trick pony”. If you were a bars specialist and not particularly strong enough to be a great vaulter, you’re probably not getting far with him.
my immediate thought too. Raisman and Sacramone are both incredible gymnasts but it’s eerie how similar their gymnastics are.
They also have really similar body types, which makes it seem kind of like they just lucked into a similar situation twice.
He was really careful about stretching, and valued conditioning. Not bad things! But if you were really flexible and couldn’t handle Brestyan legs you weren’t going anywhere with him.
Brestyan legs?
The plyometric leg workout that gymnastics Australia couldn’t handle
Ah, got it! Yeah I can see how that wouldn't work for smaller, more flexible gymnasts
I think in some ways they’re similar but also VERY different in striking ways. Alicia had a lot more style and better form, IMO. But Aly could do bars and more difficulty consistently. I love both of their gymnastics but I definitely see differences.
I don't particularly like Alicia as a gymnast, but she was a great vaulter and when she had music that worked for her (c.f. 2011), she really did have some lovely expressive artistry on floor. Aly... tried? (Though I did like her 'Hava Nagila' routine quite a lot. At least she put the effort in!)
"Aly coud do bars" I mean, barely? They were both a testament to their gym NOT being a place to go if you wanna be good at bars.
They said she could do bars, not that she could do them well
Lol still, I wouldn't point to their bars when talking about how different they are.
The difference is Alicia only did 3 events, and Aly did all around. With "just get up and survive" bars, but all around nonetheless.
Yes, but Alica stopping her training on bars was more of a tactical move. That's not really a big enough difference imo to add to an argument that they weren't almost exactly the same as gymmasts.
Well when that difference leads to one being an all around Olympic medalist and one not I think it’s worth mentioning.
Do we think Alicia could have gotten an AA medal of she kept training bars?
She would have. She's actually cleaner on bars than Aly, but was very terrified of them.
Steering outside the US for a second, in the UK Molly + Joshua Richardson have proved quite successful (two Olympians in the Gadirovas with a very likely 3rd in Ondine who I hope stays healthy till then 🙏), but it’s a bit too early to speak of their legacy since they’re younger than most head coaches and the UK lacks depth so who knows what will happen.
There are a few twins or close siblings that would be in the same coach boat.
Jenny Liang and howie zhang (maroney and Ross)
I don't know if Maroney would have gotten to the Olympics if she'd stayed with them, though. She certainly didn't think so.
IIRC it was not necessarily the coaching style or technical elements but Kyla made national team before Maroney did so they were gone with her at camps a lot and she wanted somebody who would be there with her and not traveling. I don’t recall her having anything actually negative to say about them otherwise tho I could be wrong!
Yes, I didn't mean to imply she had any ill will towards them, just that they didn't seem to have the capacity to train more than one Olympic-track gymnast at a time. To pursue her Olympic dreams Maroney had to go elsewhere, so I'm not sure they could be considered "Olympian makers".
Maroney only went to gym-max in her early Jr elite days
I give Al Fong and the Landis my vote. Why? They seem to the coaches that can coach any body type/style. Most coaches seem to produce athletes that are similar in abilities. Like Alicia and Aly, for example. Al Fong had Brenna Dowell, Courtney McCool and Terin Humphrey. You wouldn’t have guessed they were from the same gym. Same with the Landis. Al may kinda suck as a human from what I’ve heard, but that wasn’t the question.
Al is a weirdo and a questionable human but their gym does a TON of drill based training so most of their gymnasts have great technique. He posts great videos about different drills they do frequently. I would have qualms about sending a kid there because of the other stuff but like just purely from a technical standpoint I think that’s why they have succeeded with many body types and styles.
Yes, he and Armine are some of the best technical coaches in the country. (Now, whether they are good at *constructing* routines is a different question entirely - spoiler alert, they are not - but in terms of skills and mechanics it's hard to get much better.)
Yep this 100 percent. Mostly awful routine construction but the coaching itself is there haha.
This is why I think Kelli Hill is the answer here. Had many gymnasts from very early in their development (as others have pointed out), but they were also SO different. Going from Dawes to Ray alone was a massive change in style. I give her credit for coaching them as individuals. I remember Betty Okino saying in her Gymcastic interview that she realizes now that as a taller gymnast she would’ve been better suited to twisting skills. But full twisting double backs were the standard of the day and the Karolyis coached everyone the same way. I’d rather not give Fong credit for anything (even though he does produce gymnasts with beautiful form…)
Mihai brestyan too, right? (Sacramone, raisman)
Viktor Gavrichenkov -- Elena Shushunova and Natalia Ziganshina. Vladislav Rastorotsky -- Ludmila Tourischeva, Natalia Shaposhnikova. (If you count the '84 Alternative Games, Natalia Yurchenko) EDIT to add Adrian Goreac -- Ecaterina Szabo and Daniela Silivas.
Octavian Belu and Mariana Bitang
Kelly Hill - Kupets, Dawes (3x), Dicello (possibly) Ray
Laurent and Cecile landi with simone biles and Madison kocian
Biles already had 4 Olympic gold medals before she was coached by the Landis. Just because she has a positive relationship with them at one point in her career doesn't mean they "made" her.
Yeah, I would credit them with Jordan since they really helped her turn things around, but they definitely didn’t “make” Simone
Yeah I think a solid argument can be made for Jordan because she might have been a senior but the work they did together with her is so transformative.
Are we leaving Bela out because of what we have learned? Because Nadia, Mary Lou, Zmeskal, Moceanu, Strug. He may not be the greatest human being ever (and I've seen others mentioned like Fong) but he did coach champions.
Oh no I meant to include him but my autocorrect refused lol
Don Peters I believe he coached 5 of the 6 84 girls at some point and both alternates as well
Why is Valeri not qualified? 🤔 Can’t he be credited for Carly and Nastia’s success?
He never trained Carly.
Liukin broke Rebecca Bross, Ohashi and almost broke his own daughter before the Olympics. Had Nastia not been his daughter, I don't think he would have calmed down on the upgrades on the leg events. He also broke the Brazilian team when he coached them. Didn't manage to get Vanessa Atler to the Olympics after she switch to woga...
Other than Nastia, none of his other elites made it that far. His business partner Marchenko is credited with most of the successful gymnasts that came out of WOGA.