>The slim armor along her body was connected to a spine-mounted gun; it’d help the Jaslip move quickly, as a quadruped, while still firing it with her tails.
[This image.](https://www.reddit.com/r/NatureofPredators/comments/1bv0hnm/jaslip_solider_on_esquo/)
Let's go, it begin. Things are going south. Damn, that shooting without somation was very bad: war crime. The same kind of crime the Federation did, so the Consortium-Coalition conflict is off to a bad start. I hope they'll soon straighten things out, but without boarding and by destroying ships, they're losing precious information.
As the Sivkits have cut off all contact with the Federation/Coalition, I think it will take some time for them to contact the Coalition for help, and if they don't have one like FTL, it will take even longer for the Sivkits tribes to discover the disappearance of one of their own.
The diplomat they sent gave up at the last minute.
The Sivkit are also not a monolith, a sizeable part of them and their government just left after the humans introduced themselves.
In this case 'last minute' means 'the memorial service after the battle of earth' meaning the Arkists don't even know the Sivkit gave up on humanity at all. They just massacred what they should think are still allies of humanity.
The ambassador hid in the trash can in ch. 62, again, during the memorial service after the battle of earth. She IS SEEN on the shuttle returning from Noah's speech in ch. 31.
The Sivkit a may not have been as close as the Venlil or Zurulians to humanity in those early days before the battle of earth, but it's totally fucked up the Ark survivors advocate doing this after the Sivkit were willing to give humanity a chance.
I stand corrected.
Still, there's a schism between the Grand Herd and the Sivkit that remained in Federation space, I don't think they're an unified government.
I think they don't care anymore, according to the tavern scene a few chapters back, the tellus humans believed that only the venlil were not responsible for the battle of earth. Which means they probably also blame the zurulians despite those being the first to open diplomatic channels after the venlil
I mean genuinely thats very likely to have been forgotten. If you got genocided by an alien coalition basically on sight then you probably wouldn't put a lot of effort into noting down the minutia of the one or two members that maybe sorta motioned in the direction of not blasting you.
My nose didn't lie, I smelled the disaster and it was BAM.
I wonder what humanity on Earth will do with this news, we already have two wars being fought in space with this (if the SC see this as an act of total war)
I can already imagine that when humanity on Earth and that of Tellus do not recognize each other and fight, the galaxy will see that humanity's worst enemy is itself.
I still think that not responding to the communications was a total mistake, even if the consortium is very strong any animal can die in a stampede with large numbers, thank you very much Taylor and friends for influencing Resket this is going to be a total Disaster.
Well given that the coalition has been around for 20 years now and the consortium has had unrestricted access to what human history was stored on the ark ship’s computers. I’m pretty sure everyone is fully aware that humans are an aggressively territorial tribal species that really don’t get along. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if a few coalition species have contingency plans to take over as lead species of the SC once humans “inevitably” devolve back into infighting and squabbling amongst themselves.
In fact as I recall, the Krev already anticipated this of us as their most beloved pets are also primates and, well, where did you think we got this behavior from?
It makes sense, somewhere I heard that the price of our freedom in any measure is this conflict, violence, disagreements, an unhappy life Now that I remember, I think it's from a book called "A Happy Life" or something like that, which raises this idea that happiness or freedom is more important? Oops I got off topic heh, maybe coming back it's understandable that Krev understands us more than anyone else I guess
sigh\*
And so it begins
another war amongst the stars.
I do not know if, these sivkit were from the migratory fleet or of the Sapient coalition, but one thing is for certain the suffering of these people has not ended.
yeah. It began with a skirmish that will probably be a scale model of what comes next.
The consortium outclasses the human alliance and the former federation, has no desire to open communications, and will likely fire on sight.
I think that there's a rather good speech from the 12th doctor, and in this case one side was willing to step away from the box while the other pushed the buttons.
How much blood will spill until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning --
# Sit. Down. And. Talk!
the problem here is that one side wanted to sit down and talk, however the ultra paranoid and in many cases tyrannical with very little care for life, dont want to talk
>Sit. Down. And. Talk!
This is a Dark Forest scenario, sitting down and talking is putting your entire civilization at risk, they found out about the humans by pure accident.
Still, it's weird that they did not want to take the black box of that ship or living prisioners at least, I guess Hathaway must really *hate* Feds.
>Also, my Ulchid comrade is telling me that the human government is *demanding* that we fire on the targets.
Yeah, he pulled the proverbial trigger, but Hathaway and the colonists were pressuring him.
A Dark Forest scenario wouldn't have the Consortium or Federation in the first place, it assumes aliens are hostile isolationists. FTL also completely fucks the idea of using hostility to keep yourself hidden. If they have FTL comms the whole thing could be live streamed or they could have sent some sort of FTL device with a message back to home base and there's always the risk someone knew where they were going and will come looking. Once another species finds your location the risk assessment changes instantly. At that point it's just the same as dealing with a new nation contacting you and historically attacking first doesn't tend to be the right move there. I also just don't think the Dark Forest scenario is likely unless FTL proves impossible for those reasons. Even then you can't know if the other species have FTL just because you don't so it's not an optimal strategy for survival after contact is made.
You're right, it's not a dark forest. It's Jews In The Attic. It's a group of genocide survivors hiding from the interstellar civilization that sought the extermination of their entire species.
You're misunderstanding.
What he said isn't that this *is* a Dark Forest scenario. It's that the Consortium *thinks* it is one and are behaving as if it was.
That's not actually how the Consortium has behaved. When they thought the humans were Federation they didn't shoot them down like they just did the Sivkits, they tried to negotiate. So they are not actually acting like it's a 'Dark Forest' scenario, they're not acting consistently at all really.
Either way I don't think it really changes any of the points I've made in a meaningful way. FTL still invalidates the tactic of 'just destroy intruders and hope no one finds out'. There simply is no 'Dark Forest' to hide in once FTL exists.
Your right but the dark forest is a bit more complicated, in that it doesn’t matter if most of the galaxy is friendly even if 99 percent of it is friendly If one percent or less is evil then they can create a weapon that moves at close to the speed of light, or the speed or light or faster and just destroy you without you ever knowing. Like as long as the weapon is faster than the coms than it works. That said FTL coms here seem to be instant which means that teleportation is possible, or something like it if given enough recourses.
In context, doesn't shooting to kill make sense?
The consortium believes it is dealing with a genocidal, racist government that is willing to start wars and nuke planets just because of carnivores. It also believes that the Federation lacks info about their capabilities and territory.
Seems credible that they'd want to destroy any Feds that came into their territory before that Fed can send any information back.
We, as the reader, knows this is a mistake and there is no Federation. But they don't.
I will also mention that "the consortium" is going a bit too far here:
Radai was talking about boarding and capturing people for intel. Radai was telling them all to cool it with the murder talk. Radai was *hesistant* to fire.
It wasn't until the orders came from Avor and Tellus, until the others very openly came from Hathaway, that he did fire.
And i'll have you remember that Radai is not just a general, but the representative of the resket to the consortium.
Far as I can see, at least one high ranking dude in the Consortium also believes this is a mistake. Sadly, he's the dude that is very high on obeying authority and getting outvoted in this case would mean he'd obey.
that may be so, but who will the sivkit go to? if they'd go to anyone it would be federation sympathisers or the SC as they might be willing to hear them out if they can show what happened
And like that, the war begins.
Humanity will probably come knocking sooner or later, but until that point I must ponder how much blood is going to spill?
The only offense that the Jaslips committed was existing at a distance to federation space that the Consortium considered as "too close".
Being bombed into no longer having your home planet over something as trivial as where your home is located? That's the sort of sh\*t that we *literally just overthrew the Federation because of.* They couldn't help it that their star system was so close to Federation space, just like how we couldn't help that our species didn't pass the Federation's standards and nearly got bombed out of existence, with the only thing saving us being our accidentally playing dead!
It wasn’t there fault, but it was still a problem.
The first issue was whether the Consortium should’ve contacted them at all. Either they go through with whatever means necessary to silence the issue before it gets everyone killed (what the did), or they just leave the Jaslips and let them likely get put to extinction when the Federation eventually finds them (what the Consortium thought would happen, going off the information they had).
Just because it wasn’t there fault to be located there *does not mean* that it wasn’t their fault how they responded to what needed to be done by that point.
By refusing to cooperate they put the Consortium at risk. No surprise there that the Consortium would eventually give up and decide that saving their own billions was more important than a few hundred million wreckers on a condemned ice cube.
It is what it is.
Does it suck? Sure. But if there’s, say, been a nuclear disaster and you refuse to leave with the soldiers then I can hardly blame those soldiers for either *forcing* you to leave or putting an end to any activities that could throw up radioactive dust into the wind and endanger the region further.
*Violently.*
That’d probably happen regardless of what occurs. Nobody likes being outclassed, after all.
Hell, I’d be surprised if they weren’t already in an arms race with the Yotul to make sure the guys with the biggest guns aren’t the paranoid ones.
It was inevitable, these are most likely the Sivkit who left Federation space 20 years ago too, it's possible even they did not know about the Federation's end.
That's sad, they were among the first wave of allies to the UN.
Wait, if they left Federation space 20 years ago, and they're nomads, shouldn't they be further away? Why did they reach the consortium space until now?
Space is absolutelly massive, there's plenty of planets between Krev space and Federation space.
They also engaged with the Consortium previously as Gress said when Taylor hit him way back then.
2 days of FTL travel IIRC.
Thing is, between that straight line that takes 2 days to cross, there are thousands of other habitable systems separated by nothing but emptiness.
Unlikely to be the same ones. They specifically mentioned that the ships were shielded against particle accelerator weapons, a technology that was unknown to the Federation until the Yotul deployed it against them near the end of the last war.
Just like I said earlier, you did an absolutely wonderful job with this chapter my friend! Keep doing an absolutely wonderful work :3
Welp... Radai... Radai... Radai... You can't extract information from particles the size of atoms. At least he can mark that he's an War Criminal in his work resume XD
I mean, be fair to Radai- the dude clearly did NOT want to pull that trigger. He was probably going to discipline the crew for being so bloodthirsty before Hathaway called him and said basically the same thing the crew was saying- and since Hathaway is technically his superior, it meant the decision was no long truly in his hands.
I mean, in most militaries, the generals are considered lower-ranking than the civilian leader of the nation- like how every American general is outranked by the president. Hathaway is the civilian leader of the humans, and thus the equivalent of their president right now.
Plus, this was happening at Tellus, which is human space, which further increases Hathaway's authority since this is explicitly the territory he rules over.
And of course, Resket culture is all about the Almighty Chain of Command, so once Hathaway gave the word, Radai had a lifetime's worth of indoctrination saying that his misgivings no longer mattered, he had to do as he was told.
Radai doesnt take orders from the human colony, he takes orders from *the consortium,* of which humanity is a minority fraction of. And brand new members to boot.
Of note:
This is Tellus space. The Consortium, at least on the surface, is a unity of nations which are equals.
Effectively, this IS the land which humanity controls, and he was answering to the human member of the Planetary Board.
I mean, consider the fact that he has PTSD and survivor's guilt. He's... not stable at all. Honestly, he probably shouldn't be allowed into military service
Chapter 29! Taylor gets into a spat because of Quana refusing to believe Gress’ tale, and gets himself into trouble on a routine training exercise. However, mundanity is interrupted when the group detects Sivkit vessels in the system, and the ark colonists immediately clamor for blood—becoming almost mutinous to Radai. General Radai does decide to wipe them all out in a single, simultaneous shot, and Taylor is delighted by the prospect of a revenge tour against the Feds starting off.
What will happen now that a Sivkit expedition was gunned down in cold blood, hails ignored all the while? Will word reach the SC? What were the Sivkits even doing so far out of bounds…and can Gress and Quana ever learn to work together, now that so much is on the line?
As always, thank you for reading!
Team Consortium are being idiots! If these are feds, then they would’ve had no effective defense against being boarded. By firing, there’s zero information acquired.
Lock those 2 in a closet together, and maybe Quana and Gress can get along. Someone really does need to explain to Quana that if the Terrorists are willing to blast their own kids, their argument falls flat really fast.
>“If you want to capture assets for intelligence, you know what that requires? Physical people on board to retrieve them!” Radai squawked. “This crew isn’t smooth enough to progress to ship insertions yet.
They gave up on that idea pretty quickly. I understand General Radai's reasoning, though. I wouldn't trust that bunch to catch a cold. Still, jumping straight to "kill them all" isn't a good sign of things to come.
To be fair, these crews were training recruits and hadn’t received training on boarding procedures yet as was mentioned earlier in the chapter. While prisoners and intact ships would have been better, it is better to blow the ships up than risk boarding them when you have no idea what you’re doing.
> Someone really does need to explain to Quana that if the Terrorists are willing to blast their own kids, their argument falls flat really fast.
Cherise pretty much said exactly that, Quana just doesn't seem interested in humoring the notion.
> Quana, with all due respect, I’m more likely to believe a public servant than extremists who shot their own kids on camera.
While I'm not one of those people that instantly assumes that any authoritarian measures MUST means control for control's sake (like, why?), if you follow that line of thought you could perhaps believe that the "terrorists" had been instructed by the Consortium government to perform the attack.
They'd basically be to the Consortium as the Arxur were to the Federation.
... Huh. Hadn't thought of that.
Would also parallel the need for increased control to combat the Great Threat^(TM) by creating a boogeyman out of a failure.
Idk if I believe it, but I could see it.
Sucks for the Sivkit, but if you hang out with a big scary biker gang and other people see you in it, even if you leave, and they don't know that, they still might not receive you well later. And if said biker gang is actually a bunch of psychotics who will straight up murder your whole civilization if you're an omnivore... people might shoot first and not bother asking questions.
I'd say the only way this resolves peacefully is if the next group that shows up is humans on a human ship, and they broadcast that fact.
Not that I'm *expecting* that outcome. ;)
The last chapter with Taylor throwing the grenade reminded me of a writing hfy prompt ages ago.
humans introduced to aliens were trying out for military, and a person after failing a test vs some highly martial alien goes “kobe!” As they threw paperballs into a trashcan and astounds the aliens to reconsidering the human back into the military XD
As always thanks for sharing star studded stories your big bodacious brain comes up with!
I have the impression that with the lack of Arxur raids is resulting in a population boom among the herbivores resulting in the need for more agricultural land and displacing nomads, like the Sivkit who need to go further afield to find resources.
It's sad that they didn't disable comms and engines on at least one of the Sivkit vessels for intelligence gathering; especially since the Sivkit were one of the species that had opted to vote for diplomatic relations with humanity (which the arc-ships should have had time to be updated on prior to their departure.
An entire Sivkit expedition going missing will raise some whiskers, almost certainly warranting an investigation. But as they say a common enemy is the best way for two people to put their differences aside; I'm sure Gress and Quana ever learn to work together.
I hope they pick up survivors and avert another space war.
On the other hand, planets are generally pretty bad at dodging slingshoted moons and I want that totalitarian Krev "utopia" to burn as it is heretical to my sensibilities.
Also, I want the Resket exterminated because they are good order-followers, SP wants them exterminated because they're birds.
So, lead them to paradise I guess.
unless you are idiots anyway, though in a warzone things are easier to waive of,
But they should have tried communication anyway
i suppose Fog of Not knowing strikes again
Hope they were not SC, well actually i hope they were SC
FOR UNION
This is why the Dark Forest theory is wrong
You can't keep people away from your territory by hiding, you have to put up a big "No trespassing" sign
There is a reason why territorial animals mark their territory with their scent
If you just hide, that civilization has no reason to suspect they are trespassing, and will have valid reason to not like you when you attack them out of nowhere
Hiding and not expanding also greatly reduces the resources you have available to defend yourself with, actively putting you at a disadvantage against any other civilizations
It's game theory, if you hide and the aliens are hostile, you aren't going to win
But if you don't hide and the aliens are hostile, you have a fighting chance
Hiding doesn't mean you're not growing stronger. Until you've fully utilized all your resources (like dyson sphere around your star levels of resource capture) there's always more to extract as well as more efficient ways to use what you have. Regional expansion isn't the only way to build and it's not just free resources, there are costs to development and increased complexity. Information is also a resource and denying a potential enemy of it *is* a type of advantage so really it's more of a balance between the value of stealth vs the potential value of expansion. In this case the Consortium seems to have grown plenty strong by focusing on technology and efficiency rather than just grabbing more territory.
Precisely.
Even if this is just a silly sci-fi space opera whatever, these questions are ones we gotta get right if we ever reach this point.
I wouldn't want to put up a "no trespassing" sign if there's some mofo rolling into town with a T-72 and a strong desire to mount someone's head on a wall.
The whole point of the Dark Forest theory is that either that happens, or if you do put up a "No Tresspasing" sign and use your Abrams to blow the tresspasing T-72 sky high the next day someone else will show up with 5 tanks.
The 2nd book is literally called “The Dark Forrest” I don’t think everyone would like the series, but I personally found it fascinating. The second book was the best overall, but there are parts that feel like fluff until they come back to be important later.
I once saw it described as “best read as a Wikipedia synopsis”.
Which I did read.
Anyways, heard it was poorly written and the author got increasingly misogynistic or something. Also something about clearly thinking themselves really wise or whatever?
Idk it’s been a while since I saw any reviews.
Except the next guy showing up with 5 tanks is now exposed to anyone watching, which is everyone because you put up a flashy "no trespassing" sign
Any civilization capable of posing an actual threat is going to understand this, it's only the one's that truly believe they are top dog (and if they believe that, they are going to show up anyway regardless of if you have a sign or not) that aren't going to care about appearances
Attacking your neighbors without cause is the type of thing that makes your other neighbors not like you
The whole point of the Dark Forest theory is that you don’t know what else is out there, and you don’t want to take the risk that someone you don’t know anything about and is leagues stronger than you will show up. It’s literally saying that there’s too many unknowns and nobody is taking many chances with their survival.
Sure that guy with 5 tanks is exposed, but if nobody else can compare to that, they have free rein. And if there is somebody stronger than them, then they are reaping what they sowed. Either way, you still lost.
But the guy with 5 tanks is in the same position you are, and knows that
Why would the guy with 5 tanks risk exposing themself? Probability is in your favor that they won't risk it
But any civilization that reaches space must be able to function cooperatively, they'd never reach space otherwise, which means they understand that working together is usually better than fighting
So you put up a "no trespassing" sign, a guy with a T-72 shows up and sees you have an Abrams, and he says "let's work together", and then the guy with 5 tanks shows up and you now have a buddy to flank them and take them by surprise, evening the playing field enough to have a chance to win
Logically, the best course of action while in the Dark Forest is to make a bonfire
Not just for the reasons I've already stated, but because allowing yourself to be seen shows a confidence that you can defend yourself, and anyone that wants to attack you will be weary of fighting an opponent that doesn't fear them
Issue is, humans “cooperate”.
And still kill each other by the millions.
What’s to say another species’ “cooperation” wouldn’t be a LOT less peaceful even still?
Nobody will know you’re there if you don’t put up a sign.
And, of course, all of this is being watched by the people with an arsenal of nuclear MIRV ICBMs and a philosophy that judges that everybody else *must* be itching to acquire, and then possibly use, that tech for themselves.
They can’t have that, now can they?
>Nobody will know you’re there if you don’t put up a sign.
That's exactly the problem
No sign means they believe the place is free to claim, and that nothing will stand in their way as they do so
Unused/unclaimed resources is a much bigger target then a "No Trespassing" sign
Maybe, maybe not.
The idea is that they may claim the resources in any other system. It's a, say, 1/10000 chance that they'll find you as opposed to a certainty if you *tell everyone who may listen.*
The idea behind the dark forest isn’t that other civilizations are trying to avoid trespassing in other’s territory. It’s the idea that interstellar combat will be the ultimate game of rocket-tag, and the only way to avoid annihilation is to destroy any threats before they have a chance to fire at you.
Say you send a message to a world 20 light years away. You can’t expect to receive a reply any sooner than 40 years after you send the message. But the message will arrive at their world after 20 years. Meaning they have 20 years to fire a world-ending weapon at you before you even see them receive your message in the first place. You *might* have enough time to send a parting gift their way, but either way your world is fucked. If you simply shoot them instead of letting them know where you are, they can’t do this.
Civilizations in the Dark Forest aren’t dark because they want to avoid trespassers; they are dark because they want to avoid getting their world hit with a relativistic kinetic kill vehicle, Nicoll-Dyson beam, or some other harbinger of unfathomable destruction.
> they are dark because they want to avoid getting their world hit with a relativistic kinetic kill vehicle, Nicoll-Dyson beam, or some other harbinger of unfathomable destruction
Any missile with enough energy to end all life on Earth is going to be very visible even at interstellar distances, there is no stealth in space
And any civilization capable of doing so is going to understand this
Such fears also serve as great motivation to settle other systems, don't put all your eggs in one basket and whatnot
Stealth on a tactical level is impossible. You can get a degree of stealth on a strategic level if you are willing to wait millennia for things to happen.
With the right gravity assists, you don’t need very much DV to escape the solar system. At that point you wait for the missile to drift for a *long* time before it fires up a minuscule drive and starts to accelerate. If the relative velocity of your missile compared to the target system is high enough, it might not even need to accelerate much at all, just course correct.
When you have hundreds of thousands of years to accelerate, you can do it slowly. By the time relativistic effects make the projectile apparent anyway, you won’t know where it launched from. The trajectory won’t necessarily help you because it could easily be rather curved.
It becomes a practical issue of designing something that can actually function that long in space.
If somebody messages you directly, they already know where you are, and them detecting you isn’t a concern. You do still need to obscure your attack from others though.
While a message should be a pretty clear indicator that they aren’t going to attack you, it’ll be decades, if not centuries old, by the time it arrives. Are they *still* not going to attack you? Will they always feel that way?
It’s a big game of existential paranoia.
The longer it takes your missile to get to it's target, the more time the target has to develop and escape and spread to other systems, which is the very thing Dark Forest aliens want to prevent, going slow only increases the risk to yourself
If the goal is to not have other lifeforms at all (which *is* the ideal under Dark Forest), the best course of action would be to sterilize *every* planet, dwarf planet, and asteroid outside your home system, and to have such things happening continuously
The best way to do this would be to send out automated probes that travel as fast as they can, and build Dyson Swarms to focus solar energy onto the planets to sterilize them, these are things that are very visible and only the first one to do it is going to succeed
If you don't see others doing this, either you are first, or Dark Forest is wrong
The problem with all the people saying why Dark Forest works is that they are not being nearly paranoid enough for it to work
I’m not saying Dark Forest works. All I’m saying is that the idea behind it isn’t no trespassers; it’s non-detection and pre-emptive strikes so no one kills you.
You are correct in that the only logical end goal is going very loud as fast as possible to beat everybody else to the punch. Part of why it doesn’t really work beyond being a thought experiment.
As an aside, keep in mind that an interstellar colony ship is subject to all the detectability vs time constraints that an RKKV is.
I don't know if I said it before but it'd be a very interesting experience skipping from the initial Battle of Earth chapters straight to only Taylor Trench chapters
Do Consortium ships not have an option to open an audio only comms channel with voice scramblers?? You'd think they'd learn to not assume things after the decades long cold war with remnants of humanity.
I was hoping for General Radai to be the Resket equivalent of [Vasily Arkhipov](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Arkhipov). Alas, that is not the case.
Unfortunately, getting a direct call from your superiors giving the order to "kill them all" kind of takes the decision out of your hands. Radai clearly didn't WANT to go through with it, but he's had a lifetime's conditioning to worship the Chain of Command due to Resket culture- defying orders, especially with the lives of a recent ally on the line, simply wasn't something he was going to do.
>Do Consortium ships not have an option to open an audio only comms channel with voice scramblers?
Looks like that type of sci-fi tech is beyond both the Humans of Tellus 2, and the Consortium.
(( unlike humanity from 200 years in their past ))
He knew that, and was clearly extremely reluctant to pull the trigger- but then he got called by his superiors in the form of the governments on Tellus and Avor, and the decision was taken out of his hands.
Sorry, but this is probably the WORST way to deal with the situation. They just vaporized unknown ships without provocation, potentially lighting off another extermination war.
They have no idea if they hit civilian or military targets, nor do they know anything about what is beyond their borders.
Seriously, everyone on that "training" cruise should be courtmarshaled for war crimes.
Oh no, they *know* they hit civilian targets.
> “Sivkit make, sir—large vessels utilized on their nomadic expeditions, as they move from world to world…devouring them”
They live nomadically, their entire population traveling from world to world to harvest vegetation
> "The Sivkit Grand Herd is comprised of a series of smaller, nomadic tribes. It's not uncommon for them to set up shop on a habitable world, harvest its vegetation, then move to the next."
Also, uh, why would they be charged with war crimes? Legally, they haven't committed any. They haven't ratified the Geneva Convention, nor have they committed hostile acts against someone who has, while we might morally object to it, they haven't done anything to warrent a war crimes charge.
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* [The Nature of Predators 2-15](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1b4qliu/the_nature_of_predators_215/)
* [The Nature of Predators 2-14](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1b28bf7/the_nature_of_predators_214/)
* [The Nature of Predators 2-13](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1aywvw1/the_nature_of_predators_213/)
* [The Nature of Predators 2-12](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1awekyb/the_nature_of_predators_212/)
* [The Nature of Predators 2-11](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1at46ck/the_nature_of_predators_211/)
* [The Nature of Predators 2-10](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1aqp8ow/the_nature_of_predators_210/)
* [The Nature of Predators 2-9](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1anit8y/the_nature_of_predators_29/)
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Civilians or not they definitively had antimater bombs on board because they use them for 'teraforming'. With Earth pressumed destroyed and Feddies being Feddies not even giving them a chance to consider launching was somewhat reasonable if very harsh thing to do.
Basicaly they treated the likely civilian colonisation fleet as one would an enemy nuclear submarine. Kill it before it lauches ICBMs.
One trope runs through the entire NoP - the regular change of professions of the characters. It would be logical to assume that Gress and Taylor would have parted ways, simply because Gress's profession is a diplomat, and Taylor became a soldier. Perhaps they could meet and interact regularly for the needs of the plot if Gress were appointed as an ambassador for humans, that would make sense. But sudden character retraining is a major NoP problem. I still love NoP with unconditional love.
Man, I thought only the feddies had the tradition of being inconceivably stupid but no, it's apparently pervasive throughout the entire galaxy. NOBODY even MILDLY competent, ESPECIALLY a high-ranked military officer, will decide to unilaterally decimate an unknown force with unknown intentions without even TRYING to communicate unless they (the high-ranking officer) are genuinely genocidal.
I truly wonder just how much longer this misunderstanding can continue?
The no comes feels a little contrived but I guess it makes sense.
It'll be a tragedy if they end up fighting simply because they are fighting.
>The slim armor along her body was connected to a spine-mounted gun; it’d help the Jaslip move quickly, as a quadruped, while still firing it with her tails. [This image.](https://www.reddit.com/r/NatureofPredators/comments/1bv0hnm/jaslip_solider_on_esquo/) Let's go, it begin. Things are going south. Damn, that shooting without somation was very bad: war crime. The same kind of crime the Federation did, so the Consortium-Coalition conflict is off to a bad start. I hope they'll soon straighten things out, but without boarding and by destroying ships, they're losing precious information. As the Sivkits have cut off all contact with the Federation/Coalition, I think it will take some time for them to contact the Coalition for help, and if they don't have one like FTL, it will take even longer for the Sivkits tribes to discover the disappearance of one of their own.
I’m hoping for rapid onset war. This feels like kicking the hornets nest and then being surprised when you get swarmed.
Yeah I am very happy sp went with my idea of how Jaslip weapons would be
...Did the fact that Sivkits were one of the few species to initially attempt diplomacy with Humanity get forgotten or something?
The diplomat they sent gave up at the last minute. The Sivkit are also not a monolith, a sizeable part of them and their government just left after the humans introduced themselves.
In this case 'last minute' means 'the memorial service after the battle of earth' meaning the Arkists don't even know the Sivkit gave up on humanity at all. They just massacred what they should think are still allies of humanity.
No... Like, their ambassador hid in the trash can and never boarded the shuttle IIRC.
The ambassador hid in the trash can in ch. 62, again, during the memorial service after the battle of earth. She IS SEEN on the shuttle returning from Noah's speech in ch. 31. The Sivkit a may not have been as close as the Venlil or Zurulians to humanity in those early days before the battle of earth, but it's totally fucked up the Ark survivors advocate doing this after the Sivkit were willing to give humanity a chance.
I stand corrected. Still, there's a schism between the Grand Herd and the Sivkit that remained in Federation space, I don't think they're an unified government.
It seems they forgot...
I think they don't care anymore, according to the tavern scene a few chapters back, the tellus humans believed that only the venlil were not responsible for the battle of earth. Which means they probably also blame the zurulians despite those being the first to open diplomatic channels after the venlil
I mean genuinely thats very likely to have been forgotten. If you got genocided by an alien coalition basically on sight then you probably wouldn't put a lot of effort into noting down the minutia of the one or two members that maybe sorta motioned in the direction of not blasting you.
The sivkit ambassador freaked tf out and hid in a bin at the sight of Noah, not a good look.
My nose didn't lie, I smelled the disaster and it was BAM. I wonder what humanity on Earth will do with this news, we already have two wars being fought in space with this (if the SC see this as an act of total war) I can already imagine that when humanity on Earth and that of Tellus do not recognize each other and fight, the galaxy will see that humanity's worst enemy is itself. I still think that not responding to the communications was a total mistake, even if the consortium is very strong any animal can die in a stampede with large numbers, thank you very much Taylor and friends for influencing Resket this is going to be a total Disaster.
Well given that the coalition has been around for 20 years now and the consortium has had unrestricted access to what human history was stored on the ark ship’s computers. I’m pretty sure everyone is fully aware that humans are an aggressively territorial tribal species that really don’t get along. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if a few coalition species have contingency plans to take over as lead species of the SC once humans “inevitably” devolve back into infighting and squabbling amongst themselves. In fact as I recall, the Krev already anticipated this of us as their most beloved pets are also primates and, well, where did you think we got this behavior from?
It makes sense, somewhere I heard that the price of our freedom in any measure is this conflict, violence, disagreements, an unhappy life Now that I remember, I think it's from a book called "A Happy Life" or something like that, which raises this idea that happiness or freedom is more important? Oops I got off topic heh, maybe coming back it's understandable that Krev understands us more than anyone else I guess
Are the skivits part of the the SC
Nope
So what are they are part of them if they are a part of the shield/new federation it does not matter
The Sivkits decided to go it alone after the Archive Reveal
Well darn and here I was hoping that this would start a war with the shield/new federation
sigh\* And so it begins another war amongst the stars. I do not know if, these sivkit were from the migratory fleet or of the Sapient coalition, but one thing is for certain the suffering of these people has not ended.
yeah. It began with a skirmish that will probably be a scale model of what comes next. The consortium outclasses the human alliance and the former federation, has no desire to open communications, and will likely fire on sight. I think that there's a rather good speech from the 12th doctor, and in this case one side was willing to step away from the box while the other pushed the buttons. How much blood will spill until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning -- # Sit. Down. And. Talk!
That's my favorite monologue of Capaldi's run az the doctor
the problem here is that one side wanted to sit down and talk, however the ultra paranoid and in many cases tyrannical with very little care for life, dont want to talk
I actually watched that scene earlier today, it's one of Capaldi's best scenes
>Sit. Down. And. Talk! This is a Dark Forest scenario, sitting down and talking is putting your entire civilization at risk, they found out about the humans by pure accident. Still, it's weird that they did not want to take the black box of that ship or living prisioners at least, I guess Hathaway must really *hate* Feds.
It was General Radai who gave the order to fire on the sivkit ships, not the human mayor. Still, the consortium is being very blood-thirsty right now.
>Also, my Ulchid comrade is telling me that the human government is *demanding* that we fire on the targets. Yeah, he pulled the proverbial trigger, but Hathaway and the colonists were pressuring him.
A Dark Forest scenario wouldn't have the Consortium or Federation in the first place, it assumes aliens are hostile isolationists. FTL also completely fucks the idea of using hostility to keep yourself hidden. If they have FTL comms the whole thing could be live streamed or they could have sent some sort of FTL device with a message back to home base and there's always the risk someone knew where they were going and will come looking. Once another species finds your location the risk assessment changes instantly. At that point it's just the same as dealing with a new nation contacting you and historically attacking first doesn't tend to be the right move there. I also just don't think the Dark Forest scenario is likely unless FTL proves impossible for those reasons. Even then you can't know if the other species have FTL just because you don't so it's not an optimal strategy for survival after contact is made.
You're right, it's not a dark forest. It's Jews In The Attic. It's a group of genocide survivors hiding from the interstellar civilization that sought the extermination of their entire species.
You're misunderstanding. What he said isn't that this *is* a Dark Forest scenario. It's that the Consortium *thinks* it is one and are behaving as if it was.
That's not actually how the Consortium has behaved. When they thought the humans were Federation they didn't shoot them down like they just did the Sivkits, they tried to negotiate. So they are not actually acting like it's a 'Dark Forest' scenario, they're not acting consistently at all really. Either way I don't think it really changes any of the points I've made in a meaningful way. FTL still invalidates the tactic of 'just destroy intruders and hope no one finds out'. There simply is no 'Dark Forest' to hide in once FTL exists.
Your right but the dark forest is a bit more complicated, in that it doesn’t matter if most of the galaxy is friendly even if 99 percent of it is friendly If one percent or less is evil then they can create a weapon that moves at close to the speed of light, or the speed or light or faster and just destroy you without you ever knowing. Like as long as the weapon is faster than the coms than it works. That said FTL coms here seem to be instant which means that teleportation is possible, or something like it if given enough recourses.
In context, doesn't shooting to kill make sense? The consortium believes it is dealing with a genocidal, racist government that is willing to start wars and nuke planets just because of carnivores. It also believes that the Federation lacks info about their capabilities and territory. Seems credible that they'd want to destroy any Feds that came into their territory before that Fed can send any information back. We, as the reader, knows this is a mistake and there is no Federation. But they don't.
I will also mention that "the consortium" is going a bit too far here: Radai was talking about boarding and capturing people for intel. Radai was telling them all to cool it with the murder talk. Radai was *hesistant* to fire. It wasn't until the orders came from Avor and Tellus, until the others very openly came from Hathaway, that he did fire. And i'll have you remember that Radai is not just a general, but the representative of the resket to the consortium. Far as I can see, at least one high ranking dude in the Consortium also believes this is a mistake. Sadly, he's the dude that is very high on obeying authority and getting outvoted in this case would mean he'd obey.
I mean, I don't think the Sivkits had time to suffer before they experienced rapid unplanned high-energy disassembly.
Well some of them were defenestrated into the vacuum and lungs would have popped so may have survived seconds of cold painful death.
The sivkits are not part of the SC.
that may be so, but who will the sivkit go to? if they'd go to anyone it would be federation sympathisers or the SC as they might be willing to hear them out if they can show what happened
And like that, the war begins. Humanity will probably come knocking sooner or later, but until that point I must ponder how much blood is going to spill?
*especially* once Terra learns of what the Consortium did to the Jaslips, and what they did to the human colonists at first.
I think some Espionage and probably alarm bells will ring on **Terra**
I think you assume that the UN would immediately side with the space foxes who were endangering billions? That's up for questioning.
Endangering?
Did I misspell something?
In what way were they endangering billions.
If the Jaslips were found when the Federation still existed we would have seen a massacre probably similar to the battle of earth
The only offense that the Jaslips committed was existing at a distance to federation space that the Consortium considered as "too close". Being bombed into no longer having your home planet over something as trivial as where your home is located? That's the sort of sh\*t that we *literally just overthrew the Federation because of.* They couldn't help it that their star system was so close to Federation space, just like how we couldn't help that our species didn't pass the Federation's standards and nearly got bombed out of existence, with the only thing saving us being our accidentally playing dead!
It wasn’t there fault, but it was still a problem. The first issue was whether the Consortium should’ve contacted them at all. Either they go through with whatever means necessary to silence the issue before it gets everyone killed (what the did), or they just leave the Jaslips and let them likely get put to extinction when the Federation eventually finds them (what the Consortium thought would happen, going off the information they had). Just because it wasn’t there fault to be located there *does not mean* that it wasn’t their fault how they responded to what needed to be done by that point. By refusing to cooperate they put the Consortium at risk. No surprise there that the Consortium would eventually give up and decide that saving their own billions was more important than a few hundred million wreckers on a condemned ice cube. It is what it is. Does it suck? Sure. But if there’s, say, been a nuclear disaster and you refuse to leave with the soldiers then I can hardly blame those soldiers for either *forcing* you to leave or putting an end to any activities that could throw up radioactive dust into the wind and endanger the region further. *Violently.*
Eh, no I think UN will go full Tech Mode and try to play catchup with Consortium
That’d probably happen regardless of what occurs. Nobody likes being outclassed, after all. Hell, I’d be surprised if they weren’t already in an arms race with the Yotul to make sure the guys with the biggest guns aren’t the paranoid ones.
Send the technocracy after them.
“Them” as in who?
The consortium
Imagine if that was a civilian transport. Looks like it's warcrimes galore again.
Given their nomadic nature, it probably was.
It was civilian.
OH SHIT
What's a few more ships worth added to the millions of civilians already on the boards?
Exactly.
War crimes don’t apply if you don’t count the dead as sentient
It was inevitable, these are most likely the Sivkit who left Federation space 20 years ago too, it's possible even they did not know about the Federation's end. That's sad, they were among the first wave of allies to the UN.
Wait, if they left Federation space 20 years ago, and they're nomads, shouldn't they be further away? Why did they reach the consortium space until now?
Space is absolutelly massive, there's plenty of planets between Krev space and Federation space. They also engaged with the Consortium previously as Gress said when Taylor hit him way back then.
The closeness of Sivkit territory to Consortium Space (Esquo) was a critical plot point. They’re a days travel away
2 days of FTL travel IIRC. Thing is, between that straight line that takes 2 days to cross, there are thousands of other habitable systems separated by nothing but emptiness.
Unlikely to be the same ones. They specifically mentioned that the ships were shielded against particle accelerator weapons, a technology that was unknown to the Federation until the Yotul deployed it against them near the end of the last war.
>Run a final check on all systems. It appears their shields can’t deflect particle beams It's the opposite actually.
Just like I said earlier, you did an absolutely wonderful job with this chapter my friend! Keep doing an absolutely wonderful work :3 Welp... Radai... Radai... Radai... You can't extract information from particles the size of atoms. At least he can mark that he's an War Criminal in his work resume XD
I mean, be fair to Radai- the dude clearly did NOT want to pull that trigger. He was probably going to discipline the crew for being so bloodthirsty before Hathaway called him and said basically the same thing the crew was saying- and since Hathaway is technically his superior, it meant the decision was no long truly in his hands.
In what way is Hathaway above a general of the consortium?
I mean, in most militaries, the generals are considered lower-ranking than the civilian leader of the nation- like how every American general is outranked by the president. Hathaway is the civilian leader of the humans, and thus the equivalent of their president right now. Plus, this was happening at Tellus, which is human space, which further increases Hathaway's authority since this is explicitly the territory he rules over. And of course, Resket culture is all about the Almighty Chain of Command, so once Hathaway gave the word, Radai had a lifetime's worth of indoctrination saying that his misgivings no longer mattered, he had to do as he was told.
Radai doesnt take orders from the human colony, he takes orders from *the consortium,* of which humanity is a minority fraction of. And brand new members to boot.
Of note: This is Tellus space. The Consortium, at least on the surface, is a unity of nations which are equals. Effectively, this IS the land which humanity controls, and he was answering to the human member of the Planetary Board.
Dude could have, at the absolute minimum, taken a no video call.
Another interstellar war caused by the Federation! Yippee! P.s. first!
>My Krev exchange partner had opened up his soul to me, and I wouldn’t let the quadruped’s vitriol turn me against him. Well, not *again*, anyway. 🙄
Don't worry. Taylor is as reliable as a metronome. He'll be swayed to a different viewpoint next chapter.
😝 I wouldn't be surprised.
He is the stupidest motherfucker
I mean, consider the fact that he has PTSD and survivor's guilt. He's... not stable at all. Honestly, he probably shouldn't be allowed into military service
That too But alas, the plot demands it
I would like to speak to Mr. Plot and tell him to put Taylor off duty.
SpacePlotladin15
I'm kind of impressed that he's finally committed to something.
We'll see. 😝
Chapter 29! Taylor gets into a spat because of Quana refusing to believe Gress’ tale, and gets himself into trouble on a routine training exercise. However, mundanity is interrupted when the group detects Sivkit vessels in the system, and the ark colonists immediately clamor for blood—becoming almost mutinous to Radai. General Radai does decide to wipe them all out in a single, simultaneous shot, and Taylor is delighted by the prospect of a revenge tour against the Feds starting off. What will happen now that a Sivkit expedition was gunned down in cold blood, hails ignored all the while? Will word reach the SC? What were the Sivkits even doing so far out of bounds…and can Gress and Quana ever learn to work together, now that so much is on the line? As always, thank you for reading!
Team Consortium are being idiots! If these are feds, then they would’ve had no effective defense against being boarded. By firing, there’s zero information acquired. Lock those 2 in a closet together, and maybe Quana and Gress can get along. Someone really does need to explain to Quana that if the Terrorists are willing to blast their own kids, their argument falls flat really fast.
Idiots? In NoP? It's more likely than you think.
Almost guaranteed, in fact.
>“If you want to capture assets for intelligence, you know what that requires? Physical people on board to retrieve them!” Radai squawked. “This crew isn’t smooth enough to progress to ship insertions yet. They gave up on that idea pretty quickly. I understand General Radai's reasoning, though. I wouldn't trust that bunch to catch a cold. Still, jumping straight to "kill them all" isn't a good sign of things to come.
Can't wait for consortium antimatter bombs to kill 20% of Earth's population! 🤗🤗🤗
[Kolshian reaction:](https://youtu.be/oTl2JpjWwD4?si=FVBOqV8chDDPFsfi)
To be fair, these crews were training recruits and hadn’t received training on boarding procedures yet as was mentioned earlier in the chapter. While prisoners and intact ships would have been better, it is better to blow the ships up than risk boarding them when you have no idea what you’re doing.
> Someone really does need to explain to Quana that if the Terrorists are willing to blast their own kids, their argument falls flat really fast. Cherise pretty much said exactly that, Quana just doesn't seem interested in humoring the notion. > Quana, with all due respect, I’m more likely to believe a public servant than extremists who shot their own kids on camera.
While I'm not one of those people that instantly assumes that any authoritarian measures MUST means control for control's sake (like, why?), if you follow that line of thought you could perhaps believe that the "terrorists" had been instructed by the Consortium government to perform the attack. They'd basically be to the Consortium as the Arxur were to the Federation. ... Huh. Hadn't thought of that. Would also parallel the need for increased control to combat the Great Threat^(TM) by creating a boogeyman out of a failure. Idk if I believe it, but I could see it.
Sucks for the Sivkit, but if you hang out with a big scary biker gang and other people see you in it, even if you leave, and they don't know that, they still might not receive you well later. And if said biker gang is actually a bunch of psychotics who will straight up murder your whole civilization if you're an omnivore... people might shoot first and not bother asking questions. I'd say the only way this resolves peacefully is if the next group that shows up is humans on a human ship, and they broadcast that fact. Not that I'm *expecting* that outcome. ;)
The last chapter with Taylor throwing the grenade reminded me of a writing hfy prompt ages ago. humans introduced to aliens were trying out for military, and a person after failing a test vs some highly martial alien goes “kobe!” As they threw paperballs into a trashcan and astounds the aliens to reconsidering the human back into the military XD As always thanks for sharing star studded stories your big bodacious brain comes up with!
I have the impression that with the lack of Arxur raids is resulting in a population boom among the herbivores resulting in the need for more agricultural land and displacing nomads, like the Sivkit who need to go further afield to find resources. It's sad that they didn't disable comms and engines on at least one of the Sivkit vessels for intelligence gathering; especially since the Sivkit were one of the species that had opted to vote for diplomatic relations with humanity (which the arc-ships should have had time to be updated on prior to their departure. An entire Sivkit expedition going missing will raise some whiskers, almost certainly warranting an investigation. But as they say a common enemy is the best way for two people to put their differences aside; I'm sure Gress and Quana ever learn to work together.
I hope they pick up survivors and avert another space war. On the other hand, planets are generally pretty bad at dodging slingshoted moons and I want that totalitarian Krev "utopia" to burn as it is heretical to my sensibilities. Also, I want the Resket exterminated because they are good order-followers, SP wants them exterminated because they're birds. So, lead them to paradise I guess.
# This is why you should never open fire on someone without knowing who they are
unless you are idiots anyway, though in a warzone things are easier to waive of, But they should have tried communication anyway i suppose Fog of Not knowing strikes again Hope they were not SC, well actually i hope they were SC FOR UNION
This is why the Dark Forest theory is wrong You can't keep people away from your territory by hiding, you have to put up a big "No trespassing" sign There is a reason why territorial animals mark their territory with their scent
Not necessarily, since a giant "No Tresspasing" sign is a great invitation to any civilization that thinks itself stronger than your own.
If you just hide, that civilization has no reason to suspect they are trespassing, and will have valid reason to not like you when you attack them out of nowhere Hiding and not expanding also greatly reduces the resources you have available to defend yourself with, actively putting you at a disadvantage against any other civilizations It's game theory, if you hide and the aliens are hostile, you aren't going to win But if you don't hide and the aliens are hostile, you have a fighting chance
Hiding doesn't mean you're not growing stronger. Until you've fully utilized all your resources (like dyson sphere around your star levels of resource capture) there's always more to extract as well as more efficient ways to use what you have. Regional expansion isn't the only way to build and it's not just free resources, there are costs to development and increased complexity. Information is also a resource and denying a potential enemy of it *is* a type of advantage so really it's more of a balance between the value of stealth vs the potential value of expansion. In this case the Consortium seems to have grown plenty strong by focusing on technology and efficiency rather than just grabbing more territory.
Precisely. Even if this is just a silly sci-fi space opera whatever, these questions are ones we gotta get right if we ever reach this point. I wouldn't want to put up a "no trespassing" sign if there's some mofo rolling into town with a T-72 and a strong desire to mount someone's head on a wall.
The whole point of the Dark Forest theory is that either that happens, or if you do put up a "No Tresspasing" sign and use your Abrams to blow the tresspasing T-72 sky high the next day someone else will show up with 5 tanks.
Yeah. In other words, no winners. Pure luck. Though I've heard it's a horrible book/series, isn't that basically just The Three Body Problem?
The 2nd book is literally called “The Dark Forrest” I don’t think everyone would like the series, but I personally found it fascinating. The second book was the best overall, but there are parts that feel like fluff until they come back to be important later.
I once saw it described as “best read as a Wikipedia synopsis”. Which I did read. Anyways, heard it was poorly written and the author got increasingly misogynistic or something. Also something about clearly thinking themselves really wise or whatever? Idk it’s been a while since I saw any reviews.
Except the next guy showing up with 5 tanks is now exposed to anyone watching, which is everyone because you put up a flashy "no trespassing" sign Any civilization capable of posing an actual threat is going to understand this, it's only the one's that truly believe they are top dog (and if they believe that, they are going to show up anyway regardless of if you have a sign or not) that aren't going to care about appearances Attacking your neighbors without cause is the type of thing that makes your other neighbors not like you
The whole point of the Dark Forest theory is that you don’t know what else is out there, and you don’t want to take the risk that someone you don’t know anything about and is leagues stronger than you will show up. It’s literally saying that there’s too many unknowns and nobody is taking many chances with their survival. Sure that guy with 5 tanks is exposed, but if nobody else can compare to that, they have free rein. And if there is somebody stronger than them, then they are reaping what they sowed. Either way, you still lost.
But the guy with 5 tanks is in the same position you are, and knows that Why would the guy with 5 tanks risk exposing themself? Probability is in your favor that they won't risk it But any civilization that reaches space must be able to function cooperatively, they'd never reach space otherwise, which means they understand that working together is usually better than fighting So you put up a "no trespassing" sign, a guy with a T-72 shows up and sees you have an Abrams, and he says "let's work together", and then the guy with 5 tanks shows up and you now have a buddy to flank them and take them by surprise, evening the playing field enough to have a chance to win Logically, the best course of action while in the Dark Forest is to make a bonfire Not just for the reasons I've already stated, but because allowing yourself to be seen shows a confidence that you can defend yourself, and anyone that wants to attack you will be weary of fighting an opponent that doesn't fear them
Issue is, humans “cooperate”. And still kill each other by the millions. What’s to say another species’ “cooperation” wouldn’t be a LOT less peaceful even still?
Nobody will know you’re there if you don’t put up a sign. And, of course, all of this is being watched by the people with an arsenal of nuclear MIRV ICBMs and a philosophy that judges that everybody else *must* be itching to acquire, and then possibly use, that tech for themselves. They can’t have that, now can they?
>Nobody will know you’re there if you don’t put up a sign. That's exactly the problem No sign means they believe the place is free to claim, and that nothing will stand in their way as they do so Unused/unclaimed resources is a much bigger target then a "No Trespassing" sign
Maybe, maybe not. The idea is that they may claim the resources in any other system. It's a, say, 1/10000 chance that they'll find you as opposed to a certainty if you *tell everyone who may listen.*
The idea behind the dark forest isn’t that other civilizations are trying to avoid trespassing in other’s territory. It’s the idea that interstellar combat will be the ultimate game of rocket-tag, and the only way to avoid annihilation is to destroy any threats before they have a chance to fire at you. Say you send a message to a world 20 light years away. You can’t expect to receive a reply any sooner than 40 years after you send the message. But the message will arrive at their world after 20 years. Meaning they have 20 years to fire a world-ending weapon at you before you even see them receive your message in the first place. You *might* have enough time to send a parting gift their way, but either way your world is fucked. If you simply shoot them instead of letting them know where you are, they can’t do this. Civilizations in the Dark Forest aren’t dark because they want to avoid trespassers; they are dark because they want to avoid getting their world hit with a relativistic kinetic kill vehicle, Nicoll-Dyson beam, or some other harbinger of unfathomable destruction.
> they are dark because they want to avoid getting their world hit with a relativistic kinetic kill vehicle, Nicoll-Dyson beam, or some other harbinger of unfathomable destruction Any missile with enough energy to end all life on Earth is going to be very visible even at interstellar distances, there is no stealth in space And any civilization capable of doing so is going to understand this Such fears also serve as great motivation to settle other systems, don't put all your eggs in one basket and whatnot
Stealth on a tactical level is impossible. You can get a degree of stealth on a strategic level if you are willing to wait millennia for things to happen. With the right gravity assists, you don’t need very much DV to escape the solar system. At that point you wait for the missile to drift for a *long* time before it fires up a minuscule drive and starts to accelerate. If the relative velocity of your missile compared to the target system is high enough, it might not even need to accelerate much at all, just course correct. When you have hundreds of thousands of years to accelerate, you can do it slowly. By the time relativistic effects make the projectile apparent anyway, you won’t know where it launched from. The trajectory won’t necessarily help you because it could easily be rather curved. It becomes a practical issue of designing something that can actually function that long in space. If somebody messages you directly, they already know where you are, and them detecting you isn’t a concern. You do still need to obscure your attack from others though. While a message should be a pretty clear indicator that they aren’t going to attack you, it’ll be decades, if not centuries old, by the time it arrives. Are they *still* not going to attack you? Will they always feel that way? It’s a big game of existential paranoia.
The longer it takes your missile to get to it's target, the more time the target has to develop and escape and spread to other systems, which is the very thing Dark Forest aliens want to prevent, going slow only increases the risk to yourself If the goal is to not have other lifeforms at all (which *is* the ideal under Dark Forest), the best course of action would be to sterilize *every* planet, dwarf planet, and asteroid outside your home system, and to have such things happening continuously The best way to do this would be to send out automated probes that travel as fast as they can, and build Dyson Swarms to focus solar energy onto the planets to sterilize them, these are things that are very visible and only the first one to do it is going to succeed If you don't see others doing this, either you are first, or Dark Forest is wrong The problem with all the people saying why Dark Forest works is that they are not being nearly paranoid enough for it to work
I’m not saying Dark Forest works. All I’m saying is that the idea behind it isn’t no trespassers; it’s non-detection and pre-emptive strikes so no one kills you. You are correct in that the only logical end goal is going very loud as fast as possible to beat everybody else to the punch. Part of why it doesn’t really work beyond being a thought experiment. As an aside, keep in mind that an interstellar colony ship is subject to all the detectability vs time constraints that an RKKV is.
Sweet, we're back to war crimes!
There is only war, there is NO Peace among the stars.
I guess that NoP stands for more than just "Nature of Predators" in this setting... it also stands for "No Peace".
"Peace was never an option"
No Options for Peace
Peace does not make stocks go brrrr
I don't know if I said it before but it'd be a very interesting experience skipping from the initial Battle of Earth chapters straight to only Taylor Trench chapters
Do Consortium ships not have an option to open an audio only comms channel with voice scramblers?? You'd think they'd learn to not assume things after the decades long cold war with remnants of humanity. I was hoping for General Radai to be the Resket equivalent of [Vasily Arkhipov](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Arkhipov). Alas, that is not the case.
Unfortunately, getting a direct call from your superiors giving the order to "kill them all" kind of takes the decision out of your hands. Radai clearly didn't WANT to go through with it, but he's had a lifetime's conditioning to worship the Chain of Command due to Resket culture- defying orders, especially with the lives of a recent ally on the line, simply wasn't something he was going to do.
>Do Consortium ships not have an option to open an audio only comms channel with voice scramblers? Looks like that type of sci-fi tech is beyond both the Humans of Tellus 2, and the Consortium. (( unlike humanity from 200 years in their past ))
Damn, these guys weapons are OP. Well now we know why they only have like 1000 ships, seeing as that number is kinda small spacefaring empire wise.
Watch the recovery teams find humans on the Sivkit ships remains.
"Probably abducted for some demented fed experiments" Taylor rationaled
"You are not immune to propaganda"
I still like Radai, but yeah "shoot first, ask questions later" is only going to lead to more trouble down the road.
He knew that, and was clearly extremely reluctant to pull the trigger- but then he got called by his superiors in the form of the governments on Tellus and Avor, and the decision was taken out of his hands.
Taylor is actually trolling.
Bag those Sivkits!
… Fuck
Sorry, but this is probably the WORST way to deal with the situation. They just vaporized unknown ships without provocation, potentially lighting off another extermination war. They have no idea if they hit civilian or military targets, nor do they know anything about what is beyond their borders. Seriously, everyone on that "training" cruise should be courtmarshaled for war crimes.
Oh no, they *know* they hit civilian targets. > “Sivkit make, sir—large vessels utilized on their nomadic expeditions, as they move from world to world…devouring them” They live nomadically, their entire population traveling from world to world to harvest vegetation > "The Sivkit Grand Herd is comprised of a series of smaller, nomadic tribes. It's not uncommon for them to set up shop on a habitable world, harvest its vegetation, then move to the next." Also, uh, why would they be charged with war crimes? Legally, they haven't committed any. They haven't ratified the Geneva Convention, nor have they committed hostile acts against someone who has, while we might morally object to it, they haven't done anything to warrent a war crimes charge.
Court-marshalled by who? the governments on Avor and Tellus who called them up to order them to kill all of the Sikvit ships?
/u/SpacePaladin15 ([wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/authors/SpacePaladin15)) has posted 264 other stories, including: * [The Nature of Predators 2-28](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1c6btdl/the_nature_of_predators_228/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-27](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1c3310t/the_nature_of_predators_227/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-26](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1c0ni9m/the_nature_of_predators_226/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-25](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bxd6m6/the_nature_of_predators_225/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-24](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1buu3ps/the_nature_of_predators_224/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-23](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1brjek4/the_nature_of_predators_223/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-22](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bp33ci/the_nature_of_predators_222/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-21](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bltnkb/the_nature_of_predators_221/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-20](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bjekkf/the_nature_of_predators_220/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-19](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bg7qak/the_nature_of_predators_219/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-18](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bdsrab/the_nature_of_predators_218/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-17](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1bajuli/the_nature_of_predators_217/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-16](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1b82af0/the_nature_of_predators_216/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-15](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1b4qliu/the_nature_of_predators_215/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-14](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1b28bf7/the_nature_of_predators_214/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-13](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1aywvw1/the_nature_of_predators_213/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-12](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1awekyb/the_nature_of_predators_212/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-11](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1at46ck/the_nature_of_predators_211/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-10](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1aqp8ow/the_nature_of_predators_210/) * [The Nature of Predators 2-9](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/1anit8y/the_nature_of_predators_29/) This comment was automatically generated by `Waffle v.4.6.1 'Biscotti'`. [Message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FHFY&subject=WaffleBot|1c8r11u&message=If%20you%20have%20problems%20with%20updatemebot,%20contact%20Watchful1.%20We%20do%20not%20maintain%20it.) if you have any issues with Waffle.
O_O
[First Consortium Human vs SC Human ground conflict](https://youtu.be/BuLeJZITQtc?si=gwb-jJACaet2sNKv)
Ooof T.T
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Civilians or not they definitively had antimater bombs on board because they use them for 'teraforming'. With Earth pressumed destroyed and Feddies being Feddies not even giving them a chance to consider launching was somewhat reasonable if very harsh thing to do. Basicaly they treated the likely civilian colonisation fleet as one would an enemy nuclear submarine. Kill it before it lauches ICBMs.
One trope runs through the entire NoP - the regular change of professions of the characters. It would be logical to assume that Gress and Taylor would have parted ways, simply because Gress's profession is a diplomat, and Taylor became a soldier. Perhaps they could meet and interact regularly for the needs of the plot if Gress were appointed as an ambassador for humans, that would make sense. But sudden character retraining is a major NoP problem. I still love NoP with unconditional love.
Traumatised negotiator? Yeah let him train.
I'm mostly surprised spacepaladin is breaking the barrier this early
I hope this is resolved quickly. I am REALY not wanting to read another 50 chapters of boring ass space warfare.
Taylor is going to end up being tried for war crimes isn't he?
He hasn't done anything to warrent a war crimes charge *yet*
Man, I thought only the feddies had the tradition of being inconceivably stupid but no, it's apparently pervasive throughout the entire galaxy. NOBODY even MILDLY competent, ESPECIALLY a high-ranked military officer, will decide to unilaterally decimate an unknown force with unknown intentions without even TRYING to communicate unless they (the high-ranking officer) are genuinely genocidal.
Hmm, wonder is it really was a bunch of lone Sivkits…
I truly wonder just how much longer this misunderstanding can continue? The no comes feels a little contrived but I guess it makes sense. It'll be a tragedy if they end up fighting simply because they are fighting.