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Worries about being hated by the gods and punished sounds like a fear cultivated by monotheism. It's understandable that you are worried, but your fears are unfounded.
While ancient Greek culture wasn't tolerant of certain things, that's the human part of intolerance. The gods are wiser than that. They're not going to judge you for something you can't control, like your gender or sexual orientation. So don't worry. The gods will like you.
If you want to worship deities who support being outside the cishet box, there are many options. Hermaphroditus and Dionysos would be at the top of that list in my opinion, but Pan, Apollon, Zeus, and other deities are also good options.
It’s important to remember that while the Hellenic Gods may seem a bit more ‘human’ than the Abrahamic God, that’s only really because there are more than one and each have distinct personalities. It is important to remember that the gods are not human, and that they don’t really think along the same lines that humans do.
I do agree that divine judgement over personal lifestyle is a very monotheistic idea, though. Multiple Gods can fight, disagree with, and even loathe one another. There isn’t really anything that the gods universally promote or condemn. If any one god tried to impose their lifestyle standards upon humanity, all the other gods would probably be furious.
The gods are inclined towards benevolence. They will not hate you.
Modern Paganism, in general, is very queer-friendly, has been since the 1960s.
Ancient Greek society was tolerant of homosexuality and bisexuality. Greek myth features gay relationships, and figures– gods even– that we might today identify as trans.
Dionysus is explicitly genderqueer.
Generally it was more tolerant than what came after. That's what's key here.
The exact sex acts, and implicit love or feelings that were seen as acceptable varied over time and place, as did the social circumscription regarding them. Adult male homosexuality was seen as odd in Athens but was normal in Thebes and Macedonia, especially in elite male peer groups. The Romans didn't care what gender you had sex with. Instead, what mattered was social status and sexual role. Pederasty was institutional in some city states, but unusual in others. It was all over the place.
But that level of detail and nuance isn't exactly helpful when we're talking to a trans person seeking reassurance that the gods won't hate them for who they are.
You are fine. The gods are fine with you. How human culture treats us is not how the gods feel about us. This isn’t a religion like Christianity where the gods are constantly being mad at us for being how they made us. I’m also trans, and lesbian and ace. There are so many of us who are Hellenists. You’re fine.
Many of the gods themselves are LGBT especially dionysus and apollon they are benevolent beings who won't judge you for simply being who you are in my experience they'll encourage it just in the last year aphrodite and dionysus have helped me realize I was bi the gods are loving and kind
That's a Christian mindset to think the Gods will hate you for shit u can't change. And even the _Christian_ God doesn't give a shit. The ppl who think a God gives a shit about your gender identity or sexuality are dumb bigots. ESPECIALLY Greek Gods, they'll love u. All of them are bi as shit
You're fine! As someone bi and nonbinary myself, I get it. But the gods themselves were depicted as having lovers of multiple genders, and I suggest looking into the myth of Caeneus by Ovid - the gods understand and accept transness too.
unlike with christianity, there's no way to determine authoritative teachings on most things in hellenism since there's nothing treated as the definitive word of the gods, nor is any institution given any such authority. because of this, there's no unified concept of sexual ethics in hellenism. on top of that, the ancient greeks and romans didn't think that the gods were watching them or judging their every action. instead, they believed the gods only really cared about fulfilling the rituals and offerings due to them. so unless you're actively cursing the gods or committing heinous crimes, the gods won't take offense to your actions. they certainly don't care about any mortal's sexual identity very much. even then, sexual ethics in ancient greece wasn't as strict as christianity is today. interestingly, the god Dionysus is frequently depicted as an effeminate male, and could be interpreted in retrospect as analogous to trans sexual identity. you should read the bacchae by euripides, where pentheus, the king of thebes, is punished (quite gruesomely) by the deity Dionysus for having insulted the god's feminine traits.
Look into Lokis story, more Asatru than Hellenism but he is a trans god. For Hellenism you can look at Apollo, he was bisexual, he has a great love story with Hyacinthus. Plenty more examples like this. Don’t worry.
As a nonbinary pansexual myself, i can guarantee that they accept you as you are. Thankfully they don’t have the same standard at the Christian god, and have accepted you no matter how you present :)
Dionysus is the patron of trans people theres been a few trans people in greek mythology and most male gods have had male lovers i can promise you the gods will not judge
In Greek myth, you [find examples](https://paxsies.com/blogs/blogs-paxsies/greek-transgender-myths) of people who didn't match the gender they were assigned at birth, and were able to change - Isis helped Iphis transform to match the gender he was raised as, Leto transformed Leucippus who was in a similar situation, Poseidon transformed his lover Caenis into Caeneus and became a famour warrior hero, Artemis transformed Siproites into a woman when she beheld her splendous, and Hera transformed Tiresias into a woman for several years and even after he was transformed back he was valued for having insight into both sexes. On a divine level, Artemis rejects typical feminine gender roles, Dionysus is gender-ambiguous, and Aphrodite was sometimes shown with a prominent phallus and Hermaphroditus was blended with the nymph Salmacis, blurring the line between male and female.
Now, did the Ancient Greeks and Romans understand what WE would consider a transgender person? Probably not. A woman turned into a man was seen as an improvement, while a man turned into a woman was usually seen as a punishment, though that reflects Greek and Roman misogyny, not the regard of the gods. But trans people have existed since there were people, and even in the animal kingdom you find animals that don't conform to strict ideas of gender - two male penguins can incubate an egg they found abandoned and raise the chick, and sometimes hens will spontaneously grow the wattle of a rooster and start crowing. Myths are not literal, but these stories show that people have been grappling with such questions for thousands of years, and people who crossed boundaries of gender could still be part of their communities, and that the gods accept us and help us how they can.
1. Articles are the worst source of information on Hellenism known to man (possibly with the exception of Wikipedia despite there being no article on Hellenism itself.
2. I am asexual and bi-romantic, the Gods will not care about race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. They’re more likely to support you! :D Lord Apollo is bisexual since he has had both male and female partners, I’m pretty sure that Zeus and Poseidon are gay (correct me if I’m wrong on that) and multiple other Gods and Goddesses have had same-sex relationships.
Happy pride month ^^ 🏳️🌈
Many polytheists and followers of the Gods are queer, both today and in antiquity. Even those ancient Patriachial societies didn't have the same kind of religious based homophobia, transphobia and biphobia that exists in modern monotheisms.
Can I ask, why would you think that a)the Gods would hate you and that b) the Gods would punish you?
I am bi and poly myself. When I started practicing hellenism, it was first time I didn't feel "the wrath of god" was upon me for being a human being and being myself
I struggled with who I am while in Christianity and catholicism
I personally think they don't care as long as we don't hurt ourselves or others in a major bad way. Love who you are and who you love ❤️
Ofc ofc but I tend to see those as mostly metaphorical or skillful means. I view it this way also in regards to supposed misdeeds the Gods do in myths.
Supposed is a bizarre word to use.
Do you not believe they did them? If so, then you're ignoring the stories that are the basis for the religion.
Do you not believe they were misdeeds? If so, gross.
As I said I believe that some of what we would consider misdeads are completely metaphorical and some were in the service of greater good. Here is an example: Zeus cheating on Hera and then Hera taking it out on Herakles would under any normal circumstance be considered bad but if we look more closely both of their actions helped to bring about heroism on earth and inspired the virtuous.
I don't agree. Viewing your deity as an unequivocally good person is a very modern very Christian thing. Ancient polytheistic religions make it very clear that their gods are PERSONifications of natural forces and concepts. They are massively powerful and represent the things we deal with in our daily lives, but also people with flaws, and Hellenism is no exception. There's no good reason to handwave and excuse. The gods did these things, because of who they are and what they represent.
No. It is not the case that this is a modern or Christian belief. In all modern Hindu traditions, Plato also did the same thing, within Buddhism and Daoism, within Stoicism, Hermeticism, etc. etc.
But not Greek, not Norse, not Mesopotamian, not Egyptian. I'd need a citation on Plato explicitly stating that the gods doing their various deeds was supposed to somehow be a clunky metaphor.
Zeus is storms. He is fickle, destructive, and--if all you have is a Bronze age understanding of the weather--inconsistent and unpredictable.
Hera is a guardian of the home and marriage. So of course she's going to go out of her way to correct her husband's "mistakes" in violation of those things.
This is also how you distinguish what exactly Athena and Ares are the gods of, despite ostensibly both being just War. Athena is the god of war from a general's perspective: she's smart, scientific in her approach, and has other interests that supplement warfare. Ares is the god of war from a soldier's perspective: he's the chaos and bloodshed, but also the determination, heroism, and valor. That's why he's usually depicted as the embodiment of the losing side, because the losing side A) usually has inferior tactics, and B) is seen as the morally inferior barbarians by the winners.
This is how Greek gods behave: the way the things they're the god of would if you put them into a human body.
"Each God is the most beautiful and the best thing possible" (Plato - Republic 381c).
Elsewhere in the Republic, Plato says he would bar poets from the Republic, because the young can be mislead by thinking their stories are literal.
Plato doesn't state *anything* explicitly really - he's not St.Paul writing dogma to the foundling Christian Churches, he's a philosopher using what are essentially plays to discuss issues of Justice, Law, Beauty, Good, and yes, the Gods (quite often)....but it's clear that the Goodness of the Gods is core to Platonism as a whole which is why Proclus writes
> "Socrates affirms that all that which is divine is beautiful, wise and good, and shows that this triad applies to all the processions of the Gods"
I'd view the Republic more as an allegory about the Platonic Soul than a political constitution (hence it ends with the myth of Er) so in this sense this is a warning about treating myths literally - you have to use exegesis on myths to see their meaning, as it is an error of the "young" to see it as literal.
It's not only Plato who thought this. See also the words Euripides gives Heracles in his play....
>Herakles: Dear friend, all these things you said are side issues. Nothing to do with my present troubles. In any case, I don’t believe any of it. I don’t believe that the gods engage is such unholy relationships, nor have I never believed this story about gods tying up their parents in chains and I won’t believe it now.
>Nor can I ever believe that one god is the lord of another.
>A god, if he is a real god, is in need of nothing. These are just miserable tales made up by poets.
We also see in Aristotle, Xenophon, the Epicureans, the Stoics and virtually every thinker who we know of who wrote something on the Gods something on their extreme blessedness and goodness which is not compatible with a literal or close to literal reading of myths.
>Zeus is storms. He is fickle, destructive, and--if all you have is a Bronze age understanding of the weather--inconsistent and unpredictable.
Zeus is far from fickle - he shares his sovereignty with the other Gods, and indeed with humans, and is addressed in Hymns as being wise, just and patient.
See the Homeric Hymn to Zeus, where he advises Justice Herself, Themis.
> I will sing of Zeus, chiefest among the gods and greatest, all-seeing, the lord of all, the fulfiller who whispers words of wisdom to Themis as she sits leaning towards him.
>Be gracious, all-seeing Son of Cronos, most excellent and great!
Likewise Hera is a Goddess of Marriage but she is equal in rank to Zeus, and her role is not punishing these "mistakes" but to act as a test and brake upon mortals who share in Zeus's Sovereignty, as that kind of power is not to be shared lightly. Thus her role in Heracles's myths, itself a representation of apotheosis and how souls can achieve immortality and union with the Gods (hence the Labours of Heracles being a common grave ornamentation in the late antique period).
I must have read different versions of the myths than you did. Those prayers are all things said to appease the gods, to flatter and entreat them to do what you want from them; when you ask your father for extra allowance, you don't open up by calling him a douchebag.. They are not factual depictions of their behavior. The myths are, and depict the gods as flawed humans with cosmic power.
I also don't put the plays on the same level as myths like the epic cycle in terms of depicting how the living, practicing Greeks viewed their gods.
If anything, the poems do an even greater job of depicting the difference between gods and mortals: the gods are fixed in their behaviors, as fits the embodiment of concepts, and never really grow and develop as people from one story to the next. Meanwhile, the heroes and other humans always go through some kind of arc, even when the tragic stories hinge on some kind of inherent flaw.
Mortals are capable of growth and learning, as they are fully human, but the gods are not, as they are bound by the nature of their domains.
I’m also trans and bi and it’s not even a thing. Maybe that’s partly me bc I have a hefty agender streak so it also isn’t a thing to me, but it seems like it’s only as big a thing as you make it, and either way nobody is going to punish you for having traits?
I’ve known Aphrodite to get stern with me if I’m not respecting myself enough and performing gender harder than is comfortable and good for me, but that was about me being inauthentic and not adequately caring for myself.
The gods will NOT condemn you for being bi or trans. The gods themselves aren't all cishet.
I studied ancient Greek history and religion for my bachelor's degree. I'm also a trans, queer Hellenic Polytheist. There are SO MANY examples of trans, queer, and gender nonconforming people in ancient Greek history and religion:
Teiresias was a prophet of Apollo. Born a man, Teiresias got transformed into a woman by Hera. (Ovid, Metamorphoses).
Both Apollo and Dionysus are described as beautiful and effeminate, and their physical appearance was gender non-conforming for typical ancient Greek men.
Apollo was often described as a beautiful beardless youth with long hair (Homeric Hymn to Apollo).
Dionysus was mistaken for a woman due to his beauty and long hair (Euripides, Bacchae). Both are androgynous and pretty, and defy conventional expectations for men in ancient Greece.
The Sacred Band of Thebes was an army of 150 pairs of men, many of whom were same-sex lovers. (Plato, Symposium and Plutarch, Life of Pelopidas).
Some other queer relationships in ancient Greek texts (historical & mythological) include:
Apollo had male lovers, notably Hyacinthus
Heracles had male lovers, notably Iolaus
Harmodius and Aristogeiton
Achilles and Patroclus
Sappho of Lesbos
This is by no means an extensive list of every queer or trans person in ancient Greek history and religion. But researching these topics for my degree as well as my religion has helped me feel accepted and loved by the gods for who, and what, I am -- as a bi trans man.
The roll of trans people might have changed many times, but your a creature of life and light and you live.
They love you ,you are integral to their cults and worship.
I can’t speak for the ancient greek society but you asked specifically of the gods. They will not hate you for sexuality and gender identity. Poseidon has a trans husband. Apollo had 4 known boyfriends. Hercules had too many to count.
Um… If the Gods are mad at you for being trans and bi… They will 100% let you know. More than likely they probably aren’t due to their own mythos but I’m not a Goddess… Just don’t force it on other people because it can harm others emotionally and or religiously and it’s lowkey egocentric to do so… Kinda like how it’s egocentric for a straight Christian to force that on someone who isn’t either of those things. Stay humble… That’s it. 🤷🏻♀️
Hello fellow transgender bisexual Hellenist! They're totally fine with any gender or sexuality, I've seen quite a few questions like this in the subreddit even as a relatively new practicer and the replies always state they're cool with it, also; in quite a few mythologies Apollo and quite a few others if I remember correctly had several partners of several genders, and I believe at least a couple deities have changed their genders for various reasons,
More personal note; one of the primary reasons I joined Hellenism is because of how accepting the religion is of our people,
hun ive been here for not even half a year, they wont hate u for shittttttt
apollo's fuckin bi and hermaphrodite is literally *the* two-sexed god and a symbol for trans ppl. thats why i like our community, we and the gods are more accepting than monotheïsm.
youre accepted by us *AND* the gods <3
The gods and goddess love you and they want you to be the best person you can be. They don’t care who you are attracted to. They don’t think that way. Those are human thoughts and dieties don’t have them. Nor do they judge you. Follow karma. And you will be fine. I hope this helps you.
You are safe from any divine punishment. The Gods do not care for one’s gender or sexuality. For, Hermaphroditus: the child of Hermes and Aphrodite is presented as both male and female, in that they appear mostly as a beautiful maiden, but possess both male and female genitalia. The prophet Tiresias was even transformed into a woman by Lady Hera as punishment for disrupting a pair of snakes mating. Yet I suspect she enjoyed it.
Likewise, there is no shame in being bisexual. Lord Apollo Himself has had his fair share of male lovers, the most famed of which being Hyacinthus, who tragically was killed by jealous Zephyrus.
In a pantheon of people who ran the full spectrum of sexual and romantic identity, from Athena's aroace, to Artemis's arguable demisexuality, to basically every male god's indiscriminate tastes, and many of them actually swapping genders on the fly, I think it's safe to say they'd be pretty chill with you.
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Worries about being hated by the gods and punished sounds like a fear cultivated by monotheism. It's understandable that you are worried, but your fears are unfounded. While ancient Greek culture wasn't tolerant of certain things, that's the human part of intolerance. The gods are wiser than that. They're not going to judge you for something you can't control, like your gender or sexual orientation. So don't worry. The gods will like you. If you want to worship deities who support being outside the cishet box, there are many options. Hermaphroditus and Dionysos would be at the top of that list in my opinion, but Pan, Apollon, Zeus, and other deities are also good options.
It’s important to remember that while the Hellenic Gods may seem a bit more ‘human’ than the Abrahamic God, that’s only really because there are more than one and each have distinct personalities. It is important to remember that the gods are not human, and that they don’t really think along the same lines that humans do. I do agree that divine judgement over personal lifestyle is a very monotheistic idea, though. Multiple Gods can fight, disagree with, and even loathe one another. There isn’t really anything that the gods universally promote or condemn. If any one god tried to impose their lifestyle standards upon humanity, all the other gods would probably be furious.
I'm nonbinary and bi and the gods don't care. They love us as we are
The gods are inclined towards benevolence. They will not hate you. Modern Paganism, in general, is very queer-friendly, has been since the 1960s. Ancient Greek society was tolerant of homosexuality and bisexuality. Greek myth features gay relationships, and figures– gods even– that we might today identify as trans. Dionysus is explicitly genderqueer.
Ancient Greek society wasn't always accepting of homosexuality. See [Rhaphanidosis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhaphanidosis).
Generally it was more tolerant than what came after. That's what's key here. The exact sex acts, and implicit love or feelings that were seen as acceptable varied over time and place, as did the social circumscription regarding them. Adult male homosexuality was seen as odd in Athens but was normal in Thebes and Macedonia, especially in elite male peer groups. The Romans didn't care what gender you had sex with. Instead, what mattered was social status and sexual role. Pederasty was institutional in some city states, but unusual in others. It was all over the place. But that level of detail and nuance isn't exactly helpful when we're talking to a trans person seeking reassurance that the gods won't hate them for who they are.
I agree!!
You are fine. The gods are fine with you. How human culture treats us is not how the gods feel about us. This isn’t a religion like Christianity where the gods are constantly being mad at us for being how they made us. I’m also trans, and lesbian and ace. There are so many of us who are Hellenists. You’re fine.
They made you perfect as you are and They love you in every way.
Many of the gods themselves are LGBT especially dionysus and apollon they are benevolent beings who won't judge you for simply being who you are in my experience they'll encourage it just in the last year aphrodite and dionysus have helped me realize I was bi the gods are loving and kind
That's a Christian mindset to think the Gods will hate you for shit u can't change. And even the _Christian_ God doesn't give a shit. The ppl who think a God gives a shit about your gender identity or sexuality are dumb bigots. ESPECIALLY Greek Gods, they'll love u. All of them are bi as shit
The Christians who think their god hates the LGBT haven't even read their own book properly lmao
You're fine! As someone bi and nonbinary myself, I get it. But the gods themselves were depicted as having lovers of multiple genders, and I suggest looking into the myth of Caeneus by Ovid - the gods understand and accept transness too.
unlike with christianity, there's no way to determine authoritative teachings on most things in hellenism since there's nothing treated as the definitive word of the gods, nor is any institution given any such authority. because of this, there's no unified concept of sexual ethics in hellenism. on top of that, the ancient greeks and romans didn't think that the gods were watching them or judging their every action. instead, they believed the gods only really cared about fulfilling the rituals and offerings due to them. so unless you're actively cursing the gods or committing heinous crimes, the gods won't take offense to your actions. they certainly don't care about any mortal's sexual identity very much. even then, sexual ethics in ancient greece wasn't as strict as christianity is today. interestingly, the god Dionysus is frequently depicted as an effeminate male, and could be interpreted in retrospect as analogous to trans sexual identity. you should read the bacchae by euripides, where pentheus, the king of thebes, is punished (quite gruesomely) by the deity Dionysus for having insulted the god's feminine traits.
Look into Lokis story, more Asatru than Hellenism but he is a trans god. For Hellenism you can look at Apollo, he was bisexual, he has a great love story with Hyacinthus. Plenty more examples like this. Don’t worry.
As a nonbinary pansexual myself, i can guarantee that they accept you as you are. Thankfully they don’t have the same standard at the Christian god, and have accepted you no matter how you present :)
In ancient Spartan culture it was normalized to be bi it doesn't matter who you are or how you love, love is love
Dionysus is the patron of trans people theres been a few trans people in greek mythology and most male gods have had male lovers i can promise you the gods will not judge
In Greek myth, you [find examples](https://paxsies.com/blogs/blogs-paxsies/greek-transgender-myths) of people who didn't match the gender they were assigned at birth, and were able to change - Isis helped Iphis transform to match the gender he was raised as, Leto transformed Leucippus who was in a similar situation, Poseidon transformed his lover Caenis into Caeneus and became a famour warrior hero, Artemis transformed Siproites into a woman when she beheld her splendous, and Hera transformed Tiresias into a woman for several years and even after he was transformed back he was valued for having insight into both sexes. On a divine level, Artemis rejects typical feminine gender roles, Dionysus is gender-ambiguous, and Aphrodite was sometimes shown with a prominent phallus and Hermaphroditus was blended with the nymph Salmacis, blurring the line between male and female. Now, did the Ancient Greeks and Romans understand what WE would consider a transgender person? Probably not. A woman turned into a man was seen as an improvement, while a man turned into a woman was usually seen as a punishment, though that reflects Greek and Roman misogyny, not the regard of the gods. But trans people have existed since there were people, and even in the animal kingdom you find animals that don't conform to strict ideas of gender - two male penguins can incubate an egg they found abandoned and raise the chick, and sometimes hens will spontaneously grow the wattle of a rooster and start crowing. Myths are not literal, but these stories show that people have been grappling with such questions for thousands of years, and people who crossed boundaries of gender could still be part of their communities, and that the gods accept us and help us how they can.
1. Articles are the worst source of information on Hellenism known to man (possibly with the exception of Wikipedia despite there being no article on Hellenism itself. 2. I am asexual and bi-romantic, the Gods will not care about race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. They’re more likely to support you! :D Lord Apollo is bisexual since he has had both male and female partners, I’m pretty sure that Zeus and Poseidon are gay (correct me if I’m wrong on that) and multiple other Gods and Goddesses have had same-sex relationships. Happy pride month ^^ 🏳️🌈
Happy pride month
Many polytheists and followers of the Gods are queer, both today and in antiquity. Even those ancient Patriachial societies didn't have the same kind of religious based homophobia, transphobia and biphobia that exists in modern monotheisms. Can I ask, why would you think that a)the Gods would hate you and that b) the Gods would punish you?
I am bi and poly myself. When I started practicing hellenism, it was first time I didn't feel "the wrath of god" was upon me for being a human being and being myself I struggled with who I am while in Christianity and catholicism I personally think they don't care as long as we don't hurt ourselves or others in a major bad way. Love who you are and who you love ❤️
Ethics aside I believe that the Gods do not experience hatred.
Uhh...the stories beg to differ. They got extremely angry about disrespect and bad hospitality, at the very least.
Ofc ofc but I tend to see those as mostly metaphorical or skillful means. I view it this way also in regards to supposed misdeeds the Gods do in myths.
Supposed is a bizarre word to use. Do you not believe they did them? If so, then you're ignoring the stories that are the basis for the religion. Do you not believe they were misdeeds? If so, gross.
As I said I believe that some of what we would consider misdeads are completely metaphorical and some were in the service of greater good. Here is an example: Zeus cheating on Hera and then Hera taking it out on Herakles would under any normal circumstance be considered bad but if we look more closely both of their actions helped to bring about heroism on earth and inspired the virtuous.
I don't agree. Viewing your deity as an unequivocally good person is a very modern very Christian thing. Ancient polytheistic religions make it very clear that their gods are PERSONifications of natural forces and concepts. They are massively powerful and represent the things we deal with in our daily lives, but also people with flaws, and Hellenism is no exception. There's no good reason to handwave and excuse. The gods did these things, because of who they are and what they represent.
No. It is not the case that this is a modern or Christian belief. In all modern Hindu traditions, Plato also did the same thing, within Buddhism and Daoism, within Stoicism, Hermeticism, etc. etc.
But not Greek, not Norse, not Mesopotamian, not Egyptian. I'd need a citation on Plato explicitly stating that the gods doing their various deeds was supposed to somehow be a clunky metaphor. Zeus is storms. He is fickle, destructive, and--if all you have is a Bronze age understanding of the weather--inconsistent and unpredictable. Hera is a guardian of the home and marriage. So of course she's going to go out of her way to correct her husband's "mistakes" in violation of those things. This is also how you distinguish what exactly Athena and Ares are the gods of, despite ostensibly both being just War. Athena is the god of war from a general's perspective: she's smart, scientific in her approach, and has other interests that supplement warfare. Ares is the god of war from a soldier's perspective: he's the chaos and bloodshed, but also the determination, heroism, and valor. That's why he's usually depicted as the embodiment of the losing side, because the losing side A) usually has inferior tactics, and B) is seen as the morally inferior barbarians by the winners. This is how Greek gods behave: the way the things they're the god of would if you put them into a human body.
"Each God is the most beautiful and the best thing possible" (Plato - Republic 381c). Elsewhere in the Republic, Plato says he would bar poets from the Republic, because the young can be mislead by thinking their stories are literal. Plato doesn't state *anything* explicitly really - he's not St.Paul writing dogma to the foundling Christian Churches, he's a philosopher using what are essentially plays to discuss issues of Justice, Law, Beauty, Good, and yes, the Gods (quite often)....but it's clear that the Goodness of the Gods is core to Platonism as a whole which is why Proclus writes > "Socrates affirms that all that which is divine is beautiful, wise and good, and shows that this triad applies to all the processions of the Gods" I'd view the Republic more as an allegory about the Platonic Soul than a political constitution (hence it ends with the myth of Er) so in this sense this is a warning about treating myths literally - you have to use exegesis on myths to see their meaning, as it is an error of the "young" to see it as literal. It's not only Plato who thought this. See also the words Euripides gives Heracles in his play.... >Herakles: Dear friend, all these things you said are side issues. Nothing to do with my present troubles. In any case, I don’t believe any of it. I don’t believe that the gods engage is such unholy relationships, nor have I never believed this story about gods tying up their parents in chains and I won’t believe it now. >Nor can I ever believe that one god is the lord of another. >A god, if he is a real god, is in need of nothing. These are just miserable tales made up by poets. We also see in Aristotle, Xenophon, the Epicureans, the Stoics and virtually every thinker who we know of who wrote something on the Gods something on their extreme blessedness and goodness which is not compatible with a literal or close to literal reading of myths. >Zeus is storms. He is fickle, destructive, and--if all you have is a Bronze age understanding of the weather--inconsistent and unpredictable. Zeus is far from fickle - he shares his sovereignty with the other Gods, and indeed with humans, and is addressed in Hymns as being wise, just and patient. See the Homeric Hymn to Zeus, where he advises Justice Herself, Themis. > I will sing of Zeus, chiefest among the gods and greatest, all-seeing, the lord of all, the fulfiller who whispers words of wisdom to Themis as she sits leaning towards him. >Be gracious, all-seeing Son of Cronos, most excellent and great! Likewise Hera is a Goddess of Marriage but she is equal in rank to Zeus, and her role is not punishing these "mistakes" but to act as a test and brake upon mortals who share in Zeus's Sovereignty, as that kind of power is not to be shared lightly. Thus her role in Heracles's myths, itself a representation of apotheosis and how souls can achieve immortality and union with the Gods (hence the Labours of Heracles being a common grave ornamentation in the late antique period).
I must have read different versions of the myths than you did. Those prayers are all things said to appease the gods, to flatter and entreat them to do what you want from them; when you ask your father for extra allowance, you don't open up by calling him a douchebag.. They are not factual depictions of their behavior. The myths are, and depict the gods as flawed humans with cosmic power. I also don't put the plays on the same level as myths like the epic cycle in terms of depicting how the living, practicing Greeks viewed their gods. If anything, the poems do an even greater job of depicting the difference between gods and mortals: the gods are fixed in their behaviors, as fits the embodiment of concepts, and never really grow and develop as people from one story to the next. Meanwhile, the heroes and other humans always go through some kind of arc, even when the tragic stories hinge on some kind of inherent flaw. Mortals are capable of growth and learning, as they are fully human, but the gods are not, as they are bound by the nature of their domains.
I’m also trans and bi and it’s not even a thing. Maybe that’s partly me bc I have a hefty agender streak so it also isn’t a thing to me, but it seems like it’s only as big a thing as you make it, and either way nobody is going to punish you for having traits? I’ve known Aphrodite to get stern with me if I’m not respecting myself enough and performing gender harder than is comfortable and good for me, but that was about me being inauthentic and not adequately caring for myself.
The gods will NOT condemn you for being bi or trans. The gods themselves aren't all cishet. I studied ancient Greek history and religion for my bachelor's degree. I'm also a trans, queer Hellenic Polytheist. There are SO MANY examples of trans, queer, and gender nonconforming people in ancient Greek history and religion: Teiresias was a prophet of Apollo. Born a man, Teiresias got transformed into a woman by Hera. (Ovid, Metamorphoses). Both Apollo and Dionysus are described as beautiful and effeminate, and their physical appearance was gender non-conforming for typical ancient Greek men. Apollo was often described as a beautiful beardless youth with long hair (Homeric Hymn to Apollo). Dionysus was mistaken for a woman due to his beauty and long hair (Euripides, Bacchae). Both are androgynous and pretty, and defy conventional expectations for men in ancient Greece. The Sacred Band of Thebes was an army of 150 pairs of men, many of whom were same-sex lovers. (Plato, Symposium and Plutarch, Life of Pelopidas). Some other queer relationships in ancient Greek texts (historical & mythological) include: Apollo had male lovers, notably Hyacinthus Heracles had male lovers, notably Iolaus Harmodius and Aristogeiton Achilles and Patroclus Sappho of Lesbos This is by no means an extensive list of every queer or trans person in ancient Greek history and religion. But researching these topics for my degree as well as my religion has helped me feel accepted and loved by the gods for who, and what, I am -- as a bi trans man.
I am a transgender woman and I have been embraced and loved by the Gods (Nyx especially) unconditionally. They see you for who you are and love you.
The roll of trans people might have changed many times, but your a creature of life and light and you live. They love you ,you are integral to their cults and worship.
Also you use medicines inspired by their practices
I can’t speak for the ancient greek society but you asked specifically of the gods. They will not hate you for sexuality and gender identity. Poseidon has a trans husband. Apollo had 4 known boyfriends. Hercules had too many to count.
Um… If the Gods are mad at you for being trans and bi… They will 100% let you know. More than likely they probably aren’t due to their own mythos but I’m not a Goddess… Just don’t force it on other people because it can harm others emotionally and or religiously and it’s lowkey egocentric to do so… Kinda like how it’s egocentric for a straight Christian to force that on someone who isn’t either of those things. Stay humble… That’s it. 🤷🏻♀️
Hello fellow transgender bisexual Hellenist! They're totally fine with any gender or sexuality, I've seen quite a few questions like this in the subreddit even as a relatively new practicer and the replies always state they're cool with it, also; in quite a few mythologies Apollo and quite a few others if I remember correctly had several partners of several genders, and I believe at least a couple deities have changed their genders for various reasons, More personal note; one of the primary reasons I joined Hellenism is because of how accepting the religion is of our people,
hun ive been here for not even half a year, they wont hate u for shittttttt apollo's fuckin bi and hermaphrodite is literally *the* two-sexed god and a symbol for trans ppl. thats why i like our community, we and the gods are more accepting than monotheïsm. youre accepted by us *AND* the gods <3
The gods and goddess love you and they want you to be the best person you can be. They don’t care who you are attracted to. They don’t think that way. Those are human thoughts and dieties don’t have them. Nor do they judge you. Follow karma. And you will be fine. I hope this helps you.
You are safe from any divine punishment. The Gods do not care for one’s gender or sexuality. For, Hermaphroditus: the child of Hermes and Aphrodite is presented as both male and female, in that they appear mostly as a beautiful maiden, but possess both male and female genitalia. The prophet Tiresias was even transformed into a woman by Lady Hera as punishment for disrupting a pair of snakes mating. Yet I suspect she enjoyed it. Likewise, there is no shame in being bisexual. Lord Apollo Himself has had his fair share of male lovers, the most famed of which being Hyacinthus, who tragically was killed by jealous Zephyrus.
In a pantheon of people who ran the full spectrum of sexual and romantic identity, from Athena's aroace, to Artemis's arguable demisexuality, to basically every male god's indiscriminate tastes, and many of them actually swapping genders on the fly, I think it's safe to say they'd be pretty chill with you.
Ask them