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The real problem is that alot of the people posting suggestions and ideas haven't watched most if not any of Tango's development of decked out 2. There are alot of suggestions that Tango has already considered, and then discarded for various reasons.
I've seen so many suggestions that I know Tango has already considered on stream. No you don't need to be the game designer to give suggestions, but it must be frustrating to see people giving ideas that he has already considered.
Yeah I've been following along with the full development and watching a bunch of people suggest 'fixes' that he's already discussed or ask questions about things he's regularly mentioned gets immensely frustrating.
Most notable with the crown pay it forward system. Perfect example of someone using a system in a way that was not intended, that tango quickly fixed.
Yet people had so many suggestions, that he had to explain why he wasn't doing it that way so many times
That one's kind of particularly frustrating to me, because when you put together the two things there:
1. People are using the system to yield more crowns than it was intended to yield, and
2. Tango doesn't want this to happen.
it's not super hard to imagine a reason why that might be the case. Like, just accept that there's game balance problems with generating twice as many crowns as intended in the early game, and move on.
This. 100% this. He’s been designing and building this game for probably close to two years when you include pre-season 9 planning. 80-90% of audience members probably haven’t watched it, myself included for the most part, but I’ve watched enough and listened to him on Imp&Skiz and know how much thought has gone in. Plus the attention to detail with balancing and hearing out the Hermits’ concerns and experiences. People need to just stop.
And the worst things I’m seeing on Reddit is everyone acting like they know the best ways to play and do stuff when they literally have never touched the game. I understand you can formulate strategies and understand game mechanics from watching, but it’s impossible to verify your ideas or strategies when you don’t have access to the game and you likely don’t know the actual breakdown of RNG likelihood and stuff. Just stop. We can have further discussions once the world download is available but for now, just stoppppp
The thing I don’t think people are getting is that Tango wants the game to be as difficult as it is. Yes, changing artifact rates or whatever would make the game easier. He doesn’t want the game easier. He wants it hard. The bad luck with artifacts, keys, or whatever is part of the game.
Absolutely. It's worth remembering that this game wasn't created for general release but to be played by no more than two dozen people- all of whom are good enough to make a living playing a computer game. The temptation to "Monty Haul" a game, to hear the happy voices of the players as they score more epic treasure, is very real but needs to be resisted. If you make two easy for a field of this quality, the first place podium is going to get VERY crowded. Equal first split twenty-plus ways would not be a satisfactory outcome.
It's not just the challenge, it's also the RNG. It's not even about "bad luck", just about randomness contributing to every run feeling unique, interesting, memorable, and/or special. This is a core aspect of pretty much every roguelite. Hell, if Minecraft allowed it, I bet Tango would've loved to add even more randomness to the dungeon -- stuff like a procedurally generated map, procedurally placed compass dropoff locations, and more options for spawned mobs, etc. The players have some tools to hedge against the randomness -- game knowledge/skill, map knowledge, deck building, and difficulty choice. This is how you progress in a roguelite.
I don't necessarily agree with OP's premise that people who aren't game designers cannot have anything of value to add. Look at how many amateur enthusiast mod authors for games like Skyrim, Fallout, Cyberpunk 2077, Baldur's Gate III, and of course, Minecraft itself, have come up with ways to improve/expand the game. Hermitcraft even uses many of these, and many of its members including Tango himself use extra client-side mods. So I'm sure there are some amateurs out there who do have some ideas that could make Decked Out 2 better.
Having said that though, I cannot deny that the vast majority of suggestions I've seen on reddit, YouTube, and even Tango's Twitch chat have been pretty awful. Many people seem to misunderstand the design philosophy of Decked Out, and don't realize that their (well meaning, I'm sure) suggestions would either create a generally worse game, a game that is easier to master, a game that is less entertaining to play and/or watch, or just detract from the experience Tango intends Decked Out 2 to provide.
On the other hand, Tango has openly admitted there are bugs, design flaws, and problems with the game. He has ideas for addressing many of them of course, and his ideas are probably better than most of what other people are suggesting. I think people are underestimating how much time Tango has been spending on Hermitcraft lately, and how little of it has been free for him to actually diagnose, test, troubleshoot, and implement tweaks/fixes/new systems for the game. Not to mention, to record actual Hermitcraft episodes -- it's been about a month since his last one, and yet my guess is he's probably in the top three of most active Hermits on the server in the past month.
At the end of the day, unless/until Tango actively solicits feedback from the community, all suggestions -- good or bad and anything in between -- should be considered unwanted. Tango would be within his rights to ignore/dismiss them. I definitely understand how he could get fed up with thousands of people trying to "fix" this opus that he's poured thousands of hours into, especially when most of those suggestions frankly suck, and this game is pretty much indisputably one of the most impressive interactive creations Hermitcraft (and likely Minecraft at large) has ever seen.
Also, regardless, any "suggestions" that come in the form of unbridled negativity should be thrown out wholesale. Though honestly, OP makes it sound like this has been an epidemic, but personally, I haven't seen much of it.
> Tango wants the game to be as difficult as it is.
He actually doesn't. He wants about a 60% success rate and the hermits are averaging below 40% the game is more difficult than he intended especially level 2.
There are aspects that are too hard and aspects that aren't as hard as he wants them (Clank being the big disappointment as Vex's just aren't deadly because of some changes mojang made to their AI)
People are overfocusing on his trying to fix the underwhelming aspects of max clank as him trying to make things harder and ruin everybody's fun; while ignoring the things he's done to try to make things a little easier. (Structural changes to levels 1 and 2.) They're missing that max clank is something that had to be addressed, because it was coming very close to rendering irrelevant a huge chunk of the game's intended mechanics, right out of the gate.
Now that that seems much better balanced for the moment (I don't think it's anywhere near his desired 80% lethal, but the players are treating it with respect which is what's needed for the game), he's moved on to trying to fix the success rate in other ways. While it can certainly be argued that he hasn't succeeded yet, he's definitely trying. And I think a lot of people are missing that as well, since the players often don't realize what's been changed or why, and don't comment on it to their audiences.
Lmao and remember this is only talking about Decked Out. You must look at the “I think I’m a better game designer than the game designer” posts on bigger game title’s subreddits. People be wildin they know more about these products than the actual developers.
The funny part is that Tango is notorious for critiquing/complaining about game design when playing other games. It's become a running joke. On the day DO2 opened, Grian said he's officially earned the right to complain now because he made such a fantastic game.
When it's one guy with real experience and technical knowledge making the comments, it's funny and valuable. When it's a crowd of people, most of which have no experience or technical knowledge, it can get a bit grating.
Yeah. It's also worth noting for anyone who isn't aware, Tango was a game dev IRL before going full-time content creation, so his critiques of other games are from the perspective of a professional game developer.
The core issue is that people are under the misguided impression that their opinion matters.
It's exactly the reason they make reddit posts, and exactly why I made this reply.
There are 300k people subscribed - people will have opinions. I mean this is a forum to discuss hermitcraft. It's fun to speculate what can happen if things were different etc. As long as no one is swearing at Tango or anyone else and people are discussing on their own I don't see the problem. From what I've seen it's just people discussing.
Is it annoying Tango? From what ive seen on his streams he is very open to idea suggestions and will happily talk through the logic of what he does and doesn't like from chat suggestions, and has implemented a few features from those as he thought it would benefit the game. I've head him say even the more repeated ideas he's happy hearing as it just shows people are engaged with the game, which he doesn't want to discourage.
I'll start this by saying its Tango's game and he has every right to design it however he wants.
That being said, just because he made the game doesn't mean he is a perfect designer incapable of flawed systems. One of the first thing you learn about design is that how users (hermits, not chat/reddit) interact with the product is very different than design intention.
I agree that way too many people online think they know best, but I also think its fair for people (mainly hermits) to provide feedback based on their perspective. There have been plenty of times during development where Tango has taken chat feedback into consideration and it has made DO2 better, he even specifically asks for it sometime. I don't think Tango is as "insulted" as you think he is, he knows the internet will whine about any changes he makes or whatever he thinks is unfair.
Also “you haven’t worked on it for a year so you can’t say that X should have been done instead” is silly. I don’t have to have made a video game to say that a game’s difficulty settings are borked, a movie to identify problems with cinematography, etc.
I *don’t* think Decked Out 2 has major problems. But I think everyone’s got a right to express their opinions on it, and to suggest alternative options. When you expose something to a million eyeballs, you’re gonna occasionally end up with alternative solutions to problems that Tango may well have never considered, and that he may *potentially* choose to adopt. Even if he doesn’t, it gets people thinking about the particulars of game design.
> “you haven’t worked on it for a year so you can’t say that X should have been done instead” is silly
On the other hand, there is a lot of truth in that line as well. Because X might not have been done for any of these reasons that you would not know:
1. It would interfere with some other system for redstone or other minecraft reasons
2. X would have been a lot more work
3. X has some side consequence that you would only know about if you'd spent that time designing the game
etc etc.
So of course you can bring in the feedback, but "should have done X instead" is IMO very naive. Decisions are almost always trade-offs so I would have phrased it as "maybe consider doing X".
I think anyone can easily point out problems with almost anything without having years of expertise in the field. The difficult part is coming up with working solutions. If people can identify problems in a game and bring them up, I don't see a problem with that. And if they offer suggestions to fix that, I also don't think it's a problem. The only problem would come from people *telling* him to do something and getting mad if he doesn't, or rudely making demands.
But no one sending emails to Tango are they? Everyone is discussing in a place designed to discuss hermitcraft. And like you said - their suggestions may be wrong and not be done for reason - but that's the point of this place no? Someone will point that out and we have discussion. It's unfair to say we shouldn't even have a discussion among ourselves. From what I've seen everyone is saying the game is amazing but maybe xyz can be changed - no is swearing at Tango or saying he's a bad designer.
Except this happens with every game made and its part of the game making process. These game studios have learned to add processes like Dev Log, and Patch Notes so people can keep up with all of those detailed thoughts and considerations and have official forums for suggestions to be submitted and tracked so you don't get a tidal wave of repetitive suggestions.
The issue is that the vast majority of suggestions are bad. They are misinformed about how things work, they ignore practical barriers to implementation, they make mountains out of molehills, they ride roughshod over game balance or player investment or immersion or longevity -- you name it. Which means that for every gem of an idea there are a dozen pieces of absolute trash.
Meaning you're not likely to find a lot of useful feedback, and you are very likely to find a lot of things that will annoy you with how wrongheaded they are.
Secondarily, tone is important, and a whole lot of suggestions I've seen aren't even particularly well intentioned. They're more like complaints, and as often as not they're complaints along the lines of "my favorite creator got unlucky, that's not fair". Which is not actually useful, it's just reactionary. The fixes suggested are universally "don't let my favorite creator get unlucky again because that makes me feel bad" as opposed to fully thought out improvements to the game. Keeping creators fans happy has to be somewhat a concern for Tango due to the nature of what he's doing, but it can't be the primary concern or it's not even a game.
>Also “you haven’t worked on it for a year so you can’t say that X should have been done instead” is silly. I don’t have to have made a video game to say that a game’s difficulty settings are borked, a movie to identify problems with cinematography, etc.
It's kind of similar to telling an oncologist (cancer doctor) that, since he's never had cancer himself, how can he know anything about treating it? Which is obviously wrong. There's a lot of useful knowledge that isn't first-hand experience, it's the basis of a lot of education.
At no point did I say he was a perfect designer, and feedback from users is very different from the posts I'm talking about. You are right I saying that Tango does ask for and use suggestions from his viewers but he has never asked for an abundance of posts about how unfair the game is or how to fix issues he sees as a deliberate part of his design.
I think he is annoyed by this due to him saying it on stream and the fact that he posted stats for artifact distribution on twitter just to stop people posting on reddit about it
I think tango is a grown man and can handle it himself. How does more discussion hurt anything? Everyone’s entitled to an opinion and more discussion just leads to more buzz which leads to more clicks.
The issue is not so much the discussion itself but its tone. Some posts here definitely come across as "I know better" as opposed to "I thought of this idea". Probably a consequence of much of the audience being young and not having learned yet how to give good feedback.
While yes, suggestions and improvements and ways of making the game better are good, the main issue I see with most of them are they will take hours of work to implement. Tango spent 13 months making this game. His intention was for it to be self sufficient mostly. He didn’t want a bunch of work that he needed to do each week. It hasn’t worked out that way so far for him. So suggesting something that will take hours of work to implement that will only slightly change the way the game will work, isn’t worth it for him. He’s looking for quick fixes to the game, not huge ones.
He’s also getting suggestions that will change things for the entire server. He doesn’t want this. He needs to keep things localized to decked out. Changing how a ravenger looks for example will change them everywhere. That won’t work. He needs to keep it “in house” so to speak.
There’s just been a lot of stuff people have suggested that are outside of the wheelhouse of what he even wants for the game. Enough people here never watched his development so they don’t know what he’s stated in the past. Most, if not all of people’s suggestions so far could have not happened if they’d watched him make the game and realized he did something a certain way for x reason.
The sign of a great game is when so many people look how to make a game better. Even though many pf these suggestions are not well thought out, Tango should see this as a huge complimented. People only get sp invested in a game that they look for improvements if they love the game
Parroting Xander's comment, you don't have to be a game dev to spot bad game design, and you can be the best game dev in the world, and still make mistakes. NOT saying DO is bad. It is a fantastic game and the fact he achieved this in *survival* is an absolute technical marvel and a half.
Honestly, the only nitpick I have with the game is, watching Tango's stream from yesterday, that you can leave lv1 with a 21 ember card (iirc), and >!you can leave the BLACK MINES with a 24 ember card, which Etho did.!< Thats kinda bs from a gameplay perspective.
Tango talked about this on stream yesterday. The overlap is there for a reason. While getting a low artifact on level 3 might not be fun, getting a high artifact on level 1 feels great. The RNG is part of the game.
Did you see how everyone freaked out when Etho got Bdubs clock yesterday? It’s the highest artifact on level 2. It was fun and everyone loved it. That doesn’t happen without people also getting the lows of getting a bad artifact once in awhile.
3 of the lowest artifact on level 3 is pretty bad RNG but it also makes sense since there are probably only a few level 3 artifact drop off spots on hard mode. To get more variance in level 3 they need to do deadly and go farther in.
That's where the other loot should be making up the difference imo. If you're going to lvl 3 and coming back you should be getting more rewards to offset the risk. I think its fine to come back same embers, but you should be getting more loot dropped when that hasn't been apparent.
Loot drops and ember drops are purely based on your cards. Someone can get to level 3 with purely clank block and hazard block and get 0 ember drops. It’s about deck building, and more importantly, it’s about farming for those drops when the time is right. Level 3 is so new right now that nobody has wasted time farming for ember drops outside of getting the artifact. They are spending time getting the artifact they just want out. You have to go to all the loot drop areas to get the extra loot and they aren’t doing that.
Etho doesn't have enough (or good enough) ember cards to produce a good payout during the short period he's able to actively explore for them in level 2, much less level three. It's more of a deck-building choice than a flaw in the game. He's maxed on out treasure instead, which has paid off most of the time with early keys and also afforded him enough coins and crowns to buy multiple additional runs. This should improve slightly with his growing knowledge of the level, both in figuring out which drop spots he can hit up most easily and in having more time to do it. It will improve a lot if he gets a better ember card.
I do slightly have the feeling that the pace of progress into the uncommons might be a little bit on the slow side relative to the intended duration of the game, but even if true that's an argument that the valuations of the artifacts are too low across the board, not that the randomness of the values is bad.
I don't think Tango has any issue with suggestions and I don't think he has any problem disagreeing with people's suggestions. He's taken suggestions from chat, someone last night potentially helped him solve the redstone issue with the decks not being returned, he's also responded to some suggestions and why he doesn't like them. The community involvement I think is a huge positive for him and for the community. Obviously there are places/ways to make suggestions and it would probably be annoying to see "it's so bad that X happens and Tango NEEDS to implement Y because it's completely unfair," but there's no reason he'd be against "I noticed X in the gameplay and feel like Y change would make things better balanced." If he doesn't like the suggestion he just won't implement it.
Every game ever made has endured this and it's actually really important to the game creation process but companies have learned how to . The difference is professional game developers at a company employ a lot of tools to do this in an organized way with forums, patch notes, dev diaries, Faq's and aplha/beta tests. People are funneled into them where it is moderated and you can see the other posts and replies to avoid reposts. The game is currently in it's beta testing where there is still a lot of looking for feedback to make improvements often asked for on stream by Tango. If it was a real problem to Tango or any other Hermit, they have the means of dealing with it themselves. Stop advocating for adult people who don't need it and didn't ask for it. You're just being a busybody that is trying to speak for someone else. Just let people be excited about something and say their 2 cents as an anonymous person on the internet where it hurts no one and increases engagement with the content which benefits the algorithms to increase visibility. Suggestions aren't insults they're just anonymous ideas on the internet.
Tango welcomes feedback, that's why he builds and fixes on stream, and spends half of it reading comments and replying. The community around this game has been amazing
Exactly!!!
And the most annoying part is that we are just watchers. We don't play the game. We have no right to tell Tango what to do. If the hermits have issues or think there can be improvements, then that's fair game - on the whole, there seems to be good healthy and friendly discussion between Tango and the hermits when it comes to changes albeit a lingering 'controversy'.
But seeing all this discourse online from people who aren't playing the game just comes across as more disparaging and attacking. Tango's human. He is not perfect. We can't expect perfection. And at the same time, we should also be mindful what we say because it does hurt if you've been working on something for years and then people come and say 'oh this can be better' etc. etc.
I'm gonna steal this line from Wonder: If you have the choice between being right and being kind, choose being kind
No. He pays his own rent with the work he does. The same with any job. People who work, earn their wages.
On a side note, dont believe the bosses when they say "I pay your wages", if your role doesnt bring them more money, they would've made you redundant already.
Generally the reaction is positive, there are a couple hermits that moan a lot.
Everytime tango introduces a new rule Grian seems to just moan and winge about how it's not right and how it could be better as if tango hasn't spent hours upon hours thinking about it.
G's just frustrated as his win % is low and his new strategies always seem to be the ones the get nerfed.
Once he starts winning regularly he'll cheer up!!
Just gotta get good!
Grians complaining about small changes because he really likes Decked out, and as a player of the goddamn game he's exactly who Tango wants feedback from.
Tango doesn't even have a problem with Grian
Grian complains about a lot of stuff. It’s kind of just his personality. He’s not complaining out of spite or malice. I think Tango and him have a pretty good understanding based on their on camera interactions. I think something that everyone seems to forget is that the hermitcraft server isn’t a bunch of randos playing together. They are all friends. Obviously some are closer than others but end of the day they are friends.
>They are all friends. Obviously some are closer than others but end of the day they are friends.
That was quite clear considering who got invited to thirdlife for example.
But we have no idea who was invited to 3rd life…just who accepted. He could have asked all the hermits for all we know. The point is people forgot these are real people who are friends and speak on a regular basis. We only see a small snippet of their relationships
From what I remember hearing he did not invite all the hermits.
BTW not inviting doesn't mean that they hate each other either. A lot of them are simply colleagues.
Plus even redstone has its limitations. Now if tango maybe worked with docs hivemind over the past year, just imagine how much crazier it could possibly be 👀 i think its already plenty intense, i do however hope tango finds a way for vexes to be more of a danger in the dungeon. Because that seems to be one thing hes displeased with, its too easy for players to be able to escape the vexes.
>Doc and his people had done it
I said helped and i said i couldnt even imagine how else it could be more intense that it currently is. My only guess is they probably wouldve helped Simplify some of the redstone since there couldve been upwards of hundreds of hardcore redstoners working together to make tangos job even easier honestly.
Since the water hazards have been added I think the vexes have a way higher success rate (this is just a feeling based on the runs I’ve seen, not backed by statistics)
Statistics don't even matter as much as player behavior does, and since the players themselves perceive a much higher risk of max clank now, the changes are working as intended.
This. I’m not sure if the vexes have actually been having an easier time, but the players are more scared of max clank now and that’s what tango wanted. The water hazards have helped a lot.
The game still has a lot of RNG so there’s no guarantee that vexes are out at the same time the water hazards are. But as long as the players are worried about that, and thinking about that during the run, they are working (mostly) as intended.
I'm just saying that for his own future sanity, he should look into some command blocks to deal with hum-drum, backend housekeeping, that this game requires. Like a command that refills the frost ember dispenser at the end of the dungeon after every run, or a command that spreads out the ravagers occasionally.
And don't come at with "It NeEdS tO bE vAnIlLa!!!" You realize how many "tweaks" and "reskins" he's already using!? Armor stand editing? The music disc mod?
A command block *IS* **way** more "VANILLA" than any of that stuff.
Relax, chief. Tango's a big boy. He doesn't need a white knight. This is just how a certain segment of viewers engage with content. Yes, it's gauche, but not any worse than the spoilers or the hall monitors like you policing activity. Y'all just need to sit back and enjoy the show.
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The real problem is that alot of the people posting suggestions and ideas haven't watched most if not any of Tango's development of decked out 2. There are alot of suggestions that Tango has already considered, and then discarded for various reasons. I've seen so many suggestions that I know Tango has already considered on stream. No you don't need to be the game designer to give suggestions, but it must be frustrating to see people giving ideas that he has already considered.
Yeah I've been following along with the full development and watching a bunch of people suggest 'fixes' that he's already discussed or ask questions about things he's regularly mentioned gets immensely frustrating.
Most notable with the crown pay it forward system. Perfect example of someone using a system in a way that was not intended, that tango quickly fixed. Yet people had so many suggestions, that he had to explain why he wasn't doing it that way so many times
That one's kind of particularly frustrating to me, because when you put together the two things there: 1. People are using the system to yield more crowns than it was intended to yield, and 2. Tango doesn't want this to happen. it's not super hard to imagine a reason why that might be the case. Like, just accept that there's game balance problems with generating twice as many crowns as intended in the early game, and move on.
This. 100% this. He’s been designing and building this game for probably close to two years when you include pre-season 9 planning. 80-90% of audience members probably haven’t watched it, myself included for the most part, but I’ve watched enough and listened to him on Imp&Skiz and know how much thought has gone in. Plus the attention to detail with balancing and hearing out the Hermits’ concerns and experiences. People need to just stop. And the worst things I’m seeing on Reddit is everyone acting like they know the best ways to play and do stuff when they literally have never touched the game. I understand you can formulate strategies and understand game mechanics from watching, but it’s impossible to verify your ideas or strategies when you don’t have access to the game and you likely don’t know the actual breakdown of RNG likelihood and stuff. Just stop. We can have further discussions once the world download is available but for now, just stoppppp
The thing I don’t think people are getting is that Tango wants the game to be as difficult as it is. Yes, changing artifact rates or whatever would make the game easier. He doesn’t want the game easier. He wants it hard. The bad luck with artifacts, keys, or whatever is part of the game.
Absolutely. It's worth remembering that this game wasn't created for general release but to be played by no more than two dozen people- all of whom are good enough to make a living playing a computer game. The temptation to "Monty Haul" a game, to hear the happy voices of the players as they score more epic treasure, is very real but needs to be resisted. If you make two easy for a field of this quality, the first place podium is going to get VERY crowded. Equal first split twenty-plus ways would not be a satisfactory outcome.
It's not just the challenge, it's also the RNG. It's not even about "bad luck", just about randomness contributing to every run feeling unique, interesting, memorable, and/or special. This is a core aspect of pretty much every roguelite. Hell, if Minecraft allowed it, I bet Tango would've loved to add even more randomness to the dungeon -- stuff like a procedurally generated map, procedurally placed compass dropoff locations, and more options for spawned mobs, etc. The players have some tools to hedge against the randomness -- game knowledge/skill, map knowledge, deck building, and difficulty choice. This is how you progress in a roguelite. I don't necessarily agree with OP's premise that people who aren't game designers cannot have anything of value to add. Look at how many amateur enthusiast mod authors for games like Skyrim, Fallout, Cyberpunk 2077, Baldur's Gate III, and of course, Minecraft itself, have come up with ways to improve/expand the game. Hermitcraft even uses many of these, and many of its members including Tango himself use extra client-side mods. So I'm sure there are some amateurs out there who do have some ideas that could make Decked Out 2 better. Having said that though, I cannot deny that the vast majority of suggestions I've seen on reddit, YouTube, and even Tango's Twitch chat have been pretty awful. Many people seem to misunderstand the design philosophy of Decked Out, and don't realize that their (well meaning, I'm sure) suggestions would either create a generally worse game, a game that is easier to master, a game that is less entertaining to play and/or watch, or just detract from the experience Tango intends Decked Out 2 to provide. On the other hand, Tango has openly admitted there are bugs, design flaws, and problems with the game. He has ideas for addressing many of them of course, and his ideas are probably better than most of what other people are suggesting. I think people are underestimating how much time Tango has been spending on Hermitcraft lately, and how little of it has been free for him to actually diagnose, test, troubleshoot, and implement tweaks/fixes/new systems for the game. Not to mention, to record actual Hermitcraft episodes -- it's been about a month since his last one, and yet my guess is he's probably in the top three of most active Hermits on the server in the past month. At the end of the day, unless/until Tango actively solicits feedback from the community, all suggestions -- good or bad and anything in between -- should be considered unwanted. Tango would be within his rights to ignore/dismiss them. I definitely understand how he could get fed up with thousands of people trying to "fix" this opus that he's poured thousands of hours into, especially when most of those suggestions frankly suck, and this game is pretty much indisputably one of the most impressive interactive creations Hermitcraft (and likely Minecraft at large) has ever seen. Also, regardless, any "suggestions" that come in the form of unbridled negativity should be thrown out wholesale. Though honestly, OP makes it sound like this has been an epidemic, but personally, I haven't seen much of it.
> Tango wants the game to be as difficult as it is. He actually doesn't. He wants about a 60% success rate and the hermits are averaging below 40% the game is more difficult than he intended especially level 2. There are aspects that are too hard and aspects that aren't as hard as he wants them (Clank being the big disappointment as Vex's just aren't deadly because of some changes mojang made to their AI)
People are overfocusing on his trying to fix the underwhelming aspects of max clank as him trying to make things harder and ruin everybody's fun; while ignoring the things he's done to try to make things a little easier. (Structural changes to levels 1 and 2.) They're missing that max clank is something that had to be addressed, because it was coming very close to rendering irrelevant a huge chunk of the game's intended mechanics, right out of the gate. Now that that seems much better balanced for the moment (I don't think it's anywhere near his desired 80% lethal, but the players are treating it with respect which is what's needed for the game), he's moved on to trying to fix the success rate in other ways. While it can certainly be argued that he hasn't succeeded yet, he's definitely trying. And I think a lot of people are missing that as well, since the players often don't realize what's been changed or why, and don't comment on it to their audiences.
Lmao and remember this is only talking about Decked Out. You must look at the “I think I’m a better game designer than the game designer” posts on bigger game title’s subreddits. People be wildin they know more about these products than the actual developers.
The funny part is that Tango is notorious for critiquing/complaining about game design when playing other games. It's become a running joke. On the day DO2 opened, Grian said he's officially earned the right to complain now because he made such a fantastic game. When it's one guy with real experience and technical knowledge making the comments, it's funny and valuable. When it's a crowd of people, most of which have no experience or technical knowledge, it can get a bit grating.
Yeah. It's also worth noting for anyone who isn't aware, Tango was a game dev IRL before going full-time content creation, so his critiques of other games are from the perspective of a professional game developer.
The core issue is that people are under the misguided impression that their opinion matters. It's exactly the reason they make reddit posts, and exactly why I made this reply.
I'm sure it's horrible out there u just don't like to see that kinda stuff in the hermitcraft community
I disagree. It's basically like saying "you can't complain about infrastructure in your town because you aren't an engineer". Well, I can.
I mean, people should be able to come with feedback and suggestions, as long as it's done respectfully.
I totally agree, there are just too many posts telling him how to 'fix' things that he did on purpose and doesn't see as broken
At this point it needs to be the type of thread that gets locked and deleted by the mods instantly.
There are 300k people subscribed - people will have opinions. I mean this is a forum to discuss hermitcraft. It's fun to speculate what can happen if things were different etc. As long as no one is swearing at Tango or anyone else and people are discussing on their own I don't see the problem. From what I've seen it's just people discussing.
Is it annoying Tango? From what ive seen on his streams he is very open to idea suggestions and will happily talk through the logic of what he does and doesn't like from chat suggestions, and has implemented a few features from those as he thought it would benefit the game. I've head him say even the more repeated ideas he's happy hearing as it just shows people are engaged with the game, which he doesn't want to discourage.
A few things have visibly irritated him. Also chat doesn't tend to tell him "this sucks", or "this isn't fair", whereas Reddit and Youtube do.
I'll start this by saying its Tango's game and he has every right to design it however he wants. That being said, just because he made the game doesn't mean he is a perfect designer incapable of flawed systems. One of the first thing you learn about design is that how users (hermits, not chat/reddit) interact with the product is very different than design intention. I agree that way too many people online think they know best, but I also think its fair for people (mainly hermits) to provide feedback based on their perspective. There have been plenty of times during development where Tango has taken chat feedback into consideration and it has made DO2 better, he even specifically asks for it sometime. I don't think Tango is as "insulted" as you think he is, he knows the internet will whine about any changes he makes or whatever he thinks is unfair.
Also “you haven’t worked on it for a year so you can’t say that X should have been done instead” is silly. I don’t have to have made a video game to say that a game’s difficulty settings are borked, a movie to identify problems with cinematography, etc. I *don’t* think Decked Out 2 has major problems. But I think everyone’s got a right to express their opinions on it, and to suggest alternative options. When you expose something to a million eyeballs, you’re gonna occasionally end up with alternative solutions to problems that Tango may well have never considered, and that he may *potentially* choose to adopt. Even if he doesn’t, it gets people thinking about the particulars of game design.
> “you haven’t worked on it for a year so you can’t say that X should have been done instead” is silly On the other hand, there is a lot of truth in that line as well. Because X might not have been done for any of these reasons that you would not know: 1. It would interfere with some other system for redstone or other minecraft reasons 2. X would have been a lot more work 3. X has some side consequence that you would only know about if you'd spent that time designing the game etc etc. So of course you can bring in the feedback, but "should have done X instead" is IMO very naive. Decisions are almost always trade-offs so I would have phrased it as "maybe consider doing X".
I think anyone can easily point out problems with almost anything without having years of expertise in the field. The difficult part is coming up with working solutions. If people can identify problems in a game and bring them up, I don't see a problem with that. And if they offer suggestions to fix that, I also don't think it's a problem. The only problem would come from people *telling* him to do something and getting mad if he doesn't, or rudely making demands.
But no one sending emails to Tango are they? Everyone is discussing in a place designed to discuss hermitcraft. And like you said - their suggestions may be wrong and not be done for reason - but that's the point of this place no? Someone will point that out and we have discussion. It's unfair to say we shouldn't even have a discussion among ourselves. From what I've seen everyone is saying the game is amazing but maybe xyz can be changed - no is swearing at Tango or saying he's a bad designer.
Except this happens with every game made and its part of the game making process. These game studios have learned to add processes like Dev Log, and Patch Notes so people can keep up with all of those detailed thoughts and considerations and have official forums for suggestions to be submitted and tracked so you don't get a tidal wave of repetitive suggestions.
The issue is that the vast majority of suggestions are bad. They are misinformed about how things work, they ignore practical barriers to implementation, they make mountains out of molehills, they ride roughshod over game balance or player investment or immersion or longevity -- you name it. Which means that for every gem of an idea there are a dozen pieces of absolute trash. Meaning you're not likely to find a lot of useful feedback, and you are very likely to find a lot of things that will annoy you with how wrongheaded they are. Secondarily, tone is important, and a whole lot of suggestions I've seen aren't even particularly well intentioned. They're more like complaints, and as often as not they're complaints along the lines of "my favorite creator got unlucky, that's not fair". Which is not actually useful, it's just reactionary. The fixes suggested are universally "don't let my favorite creator get unlucky again because that makes me feel bad" as opposed to fully thought out improvements to the game. Keeping creators fans happy has to be somewhat a concern for Tango due to the nature of what he's doing, but it can't be the primary concern or it's not even a game.
>Also “you haven’t worked on it for a year so you can’t say that X should have been done instead” is silly. I don’t have to have made a video game to say that a game’s difficulty settings are borked, a movie to identify problems with cinematography, etc. It's kind of similar to telling an oncologist (cancer doctor) that, since he's never had cancer himself, how can he know anything about treating it? Which is obviously wrong. There's a lot of useful knowledge that isn't first-hand experience, it's the basis of a lot of education.
At no point did I say he was a perfect designer, and feedback from users is very different from the posts I'm talking about. You are right I saying that Tango does ask for and use suggestions from his viewers but he has never asked for an abundance of posts about how unfair the game is or how to fix issues he sees as a deliberate part of his design. I think he is annoyed by this due to him saying it on stream and the fact that he posted stats for artifact distribution on twitter just to stop people posting on reddit about it
I think tango is a grown man and can handle it himself. How does more discussion hurt anything? Everyone’s entitled to an opinion and more discussion just leads to more buzz which leads to more clicks.
The issue is not so much the discussion itself but its tone. Some posts here definitely come across as "I know better" as opposed to "I thought of this idea". Probably a consequence of much of the audience being young and not having learned yet how to give good feedback.
So you made a post that screams “I know better” to combat the “I know better” posts.
While yes, suggestions and improvements and ways of making the game better are good, the main issue I see with most of them are they will take hours of work to implement. Tango spent 13 months making this game. His intention was for it to be self sufficient mostly. He didn’t want a bunch of work that he needed to do each week. It hasn’t worked out that way so far for him. So suggesting something that will take hours of work to implement that will only slightly change the way the game will work, isn’t worth it for him. He’s looking for quick fixes to the game, not huge ones. He’s also getting suggestions that will change things for the entire server. He doesn’t want this. He needs to keep things localized to decked out. Changing how a ravenger looks for example will change them everywhere. That won’t work. He needs to keep it “in house” so to speak. There’s just been a lot of stuff people have suggested that are outside of the wheelhouse of what he even wants for the game. Enough people here never watched his development so they don’t know what he’s stated in the past. Most, if not all of people’s suggestions so far could have not happened if they’d watched him make the game and realized he did something a certain way for x reason.
Also Tango has lots of experience in Game Design. Didn’t he word for a AAA game company for like 10 years? (The game was never released :( )
They haven't even PLAYED decked out 2, they have no business backseating.
The sign of a great game is when so many people look how to make a game better. Even though many pf these suggestions are not well thought out, Tango should see this as a huge complimented. People only get sp invested in a game that they look for improvements if they love the game
Parroting Xander's comment, you don't have to be a game dev to spot bad game design, and you can be the best game dev in the world, and still make mistakes. NOT saying DO is bad. It is a fantastic game and the fact he achieved this in *survival* is an absolute technical marvel and a half. Honestly, the only nitpick I have with the game is, watching Tango's stream from yesterday, that you can leave lv1 with a 21 ember card (iirc), and >!you can leave the BLACK MINES with a 24 ember card, which Etho did.!< Thats kinda bs from a gameplay perspective.
Tango talked about this on stream yesterday. The overlap is there for a reason. While getting a low artifact on level 3 might not be fun, getting a high artifact on level 1 feels great. The RNG is part of the game. Did you see how everyone freaked out when Etho got Bdubs clock yesterday? It’s the highest artifact on level 2. It was fun and everyone loved it. That doesn’t happen without people also getting the lows of getting a bad artifact once in awhile. 3 of the lowest artifact on level 3 is pretty bad RNG but it also makes sense since there are probably only a few level 3 artifact drop off spots on hard mode. To get more variance in level 3 they need to do deadly and go farther in.
That's where the other loot should be making up the difference imo. If you're going to lvl 3 and coming back you should be getting more rewards to offset the risk. I think its fine to come back same embers, but you should be getting more loot dropped when that hasn't been apparent.
Loot drops and ember drops are purely based on your cards. Someone can get to level 3 with purely clank block and hazard block and get 0 ember drops. It’s about deck building, and more importantly, it’s about farming for those drops when the time is right. Level 3 is so new right now that nobody has wasted time farming for ember drops outside of getting the artifact. They are spending time getting the artifact they just want out. You have to go to all the loot drop areas to get the extra loot and they aren’t doing that.
Etho doesn't have enough (or good enough) ember cards to produce a good payout during the short period he's able to actively explore for them in level 2, much less level three. It's more of a deck-building choice than a flaw in the game. He's maxed on out treasure instead, which has paid off most of the time with early keys and also afforded him enough coins and crowns to buy multiple additional runs. This should improve slightly with his growing knowledge of the level, both in figuring out which drop spots he can hit up most easily and in having more time to do it. It will improve a lot if he gets a better ember card. I do slightly have the feeling that the pace of progress into the uncommons might be a little bit on the slow side relative to the intended duration of the game, but even if true that's an argument that the valuations of the artifacts are too low across the board, not that the randomness of the values is bad.
I don't think Tango has any issue with suggestions and I don't think he has any problem disagreeing with people's suggestions. He's taken suggestions from chat, someone last night potentially helped him solve the redstone issue with the decks not being returned, he's also responded to some suggestions and why he doesn't like them. The community involvement I think is a huge positive for him and for the community. Obviously there are places/ways to make suggestions and it would probably be annoying to see "it's so bad that X happens and Tango NEEDS to implement Y because it's completely unfair," but there's no reason he'd be against "I noticed X in the gameplay and feel like Y change would make things better balanced." If he doesn't like the suggestion he just won't implement it.
Every game ever made has endured this and it's actually really important to the game creation process but companies have learned how to . The difference is professional game developers at a company employ a lot of tools to do this in an organized way with forums, patch notes, dev diaries, Faq's and aplha/beta tests. People are funneled into them where it is moderated and you can see the other posts and replies to avoid reposts. The game is currently in it's beta testing where there is still a lot of looking for feedback to make improvements often asked for on stream by Tango. If it was a real problem to Tango or any other Hermit, they have the means of dealing with it themselves. Stop advocating for adult people who don't need it and didn't ask for it. You're just being a busybody that is trying to speak for someone else. Just let people be excited about something and say their 2 cents as an anonymous person on the internet where it hurts no one and increases engagement with the content which benefits the algorithms to increase visibility. Suggestions aren't insults they're just anonymous ideas on the internet.
Offering suggestions or criticism is fine if it's polite, but make sure to look at previous posts so you're not beating a dead horse.
Tango welcomes feedback, that's why he builds and fixes on stream, and spends half of it reading comments and replying. The community around this game has been amazing
I just though that suggesting a chunk loader was joke at this point. It doesn't matter what the problem is.
People are excited about the game and want to talk about it. This is weird gatekeeping and you're basically telling people not to support Tango.
Exactly!!! And the most annoying part is that we are just watchers. We don't play the game. We have no right to tell Tango what to do. If the hermits have issues or think there can be improvements, then that's fair game - on the whole, there seems to be good healthy and friendly discussion between Tango and the hermits when it comes to changes albeit a lingering 'controversy'. But seeing all this discourse online from people who aren't playing the game just comes across as more disparaging and attacking. Tango's human. He is not perfect. We can't expect perfection. And at the same time, we should also be mindful what we say because it does hurt if you've been working on something for years and then people come and say 'oh this can be better' etc. etc. I'm gonna steal this line from Wonder: If you have the choice between being right and being kind, choose being kind
But at the same time. If he doesn't want the people to complain, don't be a steamer. The complainers are the people who pay his rent.
No. He pays his own rent with the work he does. The same with any job. People who work, earn their wages. On a side note, dont believe the bosses when they say "I pay your wages", if your role doesnt bring them more money, they would've made you redundant already.
Yes. But a big part of the job as a streamer is to deal with whiners and trolls.
Honestly I feel this advice should also apply to the hermits. Sick of hearing some of them complain.
Is that a thing?? I’ve only seen positivity but I don’t watch every hermit
Generally the reaction is positive, there are a couple hermits that moan a lot. Everytime tango introduces a new rule Grian seems to just moan and winge about how it's not right and how it could be better as if tango hasn't spent hours upon hours thinking about it.
Under one of the recent stream vods he has called himself out on this.
G's just frustrated as his win % is low and his new strategies always seem to be the ones the get nerfed. Once he starts winning regularly he'll cheer up!! Just gotta get good!
Grians complaining about small changes because he really likes Decked out, and as a player of the goddamn game he's exactly who Tango wants feedback from. Tango doesn't even have a problem with Grian
Grian complains about a lot of stuff. It’s kind of just his personality. He’s not complaining out of spite or malice. I think Tango and him have a pretty good understanding based on their on camera interactions. I think something that everyone seems to forget is that the hermitcraft server isn’t a bunch of randos playing together. They are all friends. Obviously some are closer than others but end of the day they are friends.
>They are all friends. Obviously some are closer than others but end of the day they are friends. That was quite clear considering who got invited to thirdlife for example.
But we have no idea who was invited to 3rd life…just who accepted. He could have asked all the hermits for all we know. The point is people forgot these are real people who are friends and speak on a regular basis. We only see a small snippet of their relationships
From what I remember hearing he did not invite all the hermits. BTW not inviting doesn't mean that they hate each other either. A lot of them are simply colleagues.
Just no, if Tango has a problem with any of the hermits that's for him to take up with them, not for you.
Plus even redstone has its limitations. Now if tango maybe worked with docs hivemind over the past year, just imagine how much crazier it could possibly be 👀 i think its already plenty intense, i do however hope tango finds a way for vexes to be more of a danger in the dungeon. Because that seems to be one thing hes displeased with, its too easy for players to be able to escape the vexes.
"This could been better if Doc and his people had done it" is not nicer.
>Doc and his people had done it I said helped and i said i couldnt even imagine how else it could be more intense that it currently is. My only guess is they probably wouldve helped Simplify some of the redstone since there couldve been upwards of hundreds of hardcore redstoners working together to make tangos job even easier honestly.
Since the water hazards have been added I think the vexes have a way higher success rate (this is just a feeling based on the runs I’ve seen, not backed by statistics)
Statistics don't even matter as much as player behavior does, and since the players themselves perceive a much higher risk of max clank now, the changes are working as intended.
This. I’m not sure if the vexes have actually been having an easier time, but the players are more scared of max clank now and that’s what tango wanted. The water hazards have helped a lot. The game still has a lot of RNG so there’s no guarantee that vexes are out at the same time the water hazards are. But as long as the players are worried about that, and thinking about that during the run, they are working (mostly) as intended.
This post comes across as really para-social.
I'm just saying that for his own future sanity, he should look into some command blocks to deal with hum-drum, backend housekeeping, that this game requires. Like a command that refills the frost ember dispenser at the end of the dungeon after every run, or a command that spreads out the ravagers occasionally. And don't come at with "It NeEdS tO bE vAnIlLa!!!" You realize how many "tweaks" and "reskins" he's already using!? Armor stand editing? The music disc mod? A command block *IS* **way** more "VANILLA" than any of that stuff.
It's not survival. Survival is more important to the Hermits than staying strictly vanilla is. They will never allow command blocks for builds.
Relax, chief. Tango's a big boy. He doesn't need a white knight. This is just how a certain segment of viewers engage with content. Yes, it's gauche, but not any worse than the spoilers or the hall monitors like you policing activity. Y'all just need to sit back and enjoy the show.