South Dakota homebuilder here, it’s a funny balance vs most of what I see in the Midwest because we also have to be cognizant of wind so much here that things have averaged out to a 5/12 or 6/12 for the most part and people just end up diligent about ice damming (or not, and find out they should have been).
You need a good pitch on the roof to handle the weight of snow. Which, on a modern build footprint ends up meaning fairly high peaks. Easier then to tuck the second floor into that roof space and throw in some dormers than to raise the eaves.
A bunch of dormers in a conditioned attic are, in point of fact, hard to build right and relatively expensive compared to building another floor. Some problems with that:
\* It's not obvious that they're built wrong when you buy the house, only when it starts leaking months, years, or decades later.
\* It might not be obvious that the dormers specifically are an insulation / air leakage problem even after decades of paying high utility bills.
\* You rarely see their itemized costs; Often quotes occur mostly on the basis of square footage, which just ends up priced higher per square foot because dormers are routine additions
\* Municipal zoning height limits
There’s an 80s two story with 3rd floor dormers in one of our McMansion neighborhoods in town. They’re too large and too many, they seem to be sliding off. Proportions are all wrong. I
Often it's snow..
You want that stuff coming down.
I have relatives in the Midwest and a lot of those harms are very charming. My home is here in the southwest and we have a lot of tile Spanish roofs.
Around here (southern Ontario) they have those massive steep roofs too, mostly on McMansion type houses but it's just fashion. The houses are so big they all have flat roofs on top, or valleys in the middle of the roof, so they are actually worse for shedding snow than a roof with a reasonable pitch. And the amount of snow we get, the old 4/12 pitch roofs that used to be common are just fine.
It's really dumb actually, as they are a PITA to work on if anything needs repaired, so it costs more, plus the roof is much more complex and prone to fail. The fad seems to be finally starting to fade, but I still cringe every time I see one of those houses.
Oh, and they are all built with trusses too, so that large attic is totally useless as any kind of living space.
Like others have said, snow is a big thing, but also that quite a few houses have basements because of tornados. Most people don't feel like they need a 2nd floor when they've got a full basement to work with too
Basements are more to due with putting foundations under the frost line. Might as well go a few feet deeper and double the square footage with a basement or walkout
As someone who's lived in tornado alley my whole life, I could care less about the frost line, I ain't buying a house without a basement and a tornado room lol
Various formal reasons in terms of actual shedding water, snow, heating and cooling or whatever. BUT the crux of the question to me is "why isn't it better?".
In my opinion (having grown up there and seen the industry now for 15+ years). Its 100% due to the way single family homes are built. Blame DR Horton, Pulte, Lennar, KB Homes, etc. These are the people that have virtually zero incentive to improve anything that they do. The industry is slow moving and as a business model, they are doing everything they possibly can to cheap out and skimp every corner. Ask anyone who has bought a built home by these people --- they are awful. Furthermore, design wise, when working with places like this, you want the most broad appeal to not ostracize anyone. Any element you put onto a home could steer away a potential buyer. Its why everything is as boring vanilla-middle-of-the-road as you can get. This strategy is also why high rises in cities are middle of the road, and sometimes every-other-floor employs different aesthetics slightly to attract a wider group of buyers.
You will find great homes done custom by architects and custom builders, however the amount <1% probably (guessing no idea in reality) is so small that they dont enter the public mind and public really doesn't get much exposure to them (unless you read design blogs and whatnot). Even if you do have exposure tho, they cost more for quality (much of the quality hidden such as insulation, waterproofing, etc), so its tough to obtain. Even if you want a modest great home with a flat roof or something else --- its hard to find GCs with experience in it, which ultimately leads to a price premium regardless.
Hence the wheel keeps going round and people are forced to keep buying shitty homes.
>then a massive roof line, then the second floor kinda pops out of the roof. What’s the deal with that?
So you see a lot of Cape style homes with dormers in other words? Probably because its cheaper to build that way than a full second story and a lot of modular homes are built this way too now.
Everything comes down to $$$. Nice, architectural, and trendy tend to blow up budgets.
No, it's acres of shingles enclosing nothing but unconditioned attic space. Ramblers are dwarfed by enormous roofs with peaks and valleys all over to accommodate the 7 2-foot bump outs they added randomly for "architectural interest". Like this: [https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/prod.monsterhouseplans.com/uploads/images\_plans/50/50-150/50-150e.webp](https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/prod.monsterhouseplans.com/uploads/images_plans/50/50-150/50-150e.webp)
Snow and wind.
Wind is counterintuitive. The high slope reduces lift.
In the coastal areas they use brackets and tie it all down to the foundation. But once you add in the snow loading the path of least resistance is pretty clear.
Building the second floor under the roof is less expensive than building full two story exterior walls and facing them with brick, stucco, stone, or even siding. That’s what my builder clients always say.
People say snow and wind and that's true for areas that have it. Our area has no snow any more and wind has never been a problem but we went from 4 and maybe 6 pitch roofs to 10 and 12 in the last 20 years. Some of it has to be fashion
In N IL, N IN, S MI, and W OH…I have not noticed that with new construction. They are all pretty cookie cutter tract homes but they are still 2 story 3/2 and 4/3 homes with full basements no attic. If it’s modern then it’s downtown and it’s just a box that goes right to the setbacks 2 or 3 story with a full basement and rooftop deck.
Yeah. Thats all that I see in Oklahoma unless it’s in a million $$ neighborhood. I had heard once that it’s better for airflow in the attic and helps keep the main floor cooler. I’ve also heard that it’s like that for the furnace. I don’t know. Seems like it’s just a money thing.
Although, lots of people said that steeper pitched roofs are better for wind and we have plenty of that.
Interesting question. People have mentioned snow, rain and wind - and maybe just fossilized designs. In eastern WA ski country there has been a shift to low pitched (1:12) shed roofs. I think a lot of that change came because the houses that get built this way are one story and less obtrusive, and people also got tired of having huge mounds of snow dumped all around the house. At that pitch you have to use crimped seam metal and people usually install snow brakes to keep all the snow on the house until it melts in the spring. You end up having to anchor the roof pretty well where it covers porches (to deal with winds in summer). I suspect it costs more to spread the square footage over one story as opposed to two.
How big are the garages? Usually the garage is 1/4 to 1/3 of the footprint and you need a roof over it. Many times there isn’t a need for that much area on the second floor, so your “kinda pops out of the roof” statement would make sense.
Personally I'd rather go without a garage than have that be the first thing you notice about my house. Mine's the fourth garage on your left. Gaaahhhhh.
Part of it is the byproduct of energy codes mandating R-60 attic insulation. Even with blown in cellulose and raised heel trust is it's tough to do on a low pitch roof.
There are so many ways around that, that if that is the reason the architect/designer is not doing their job. A tight well insulated shell doesn't require dormers that leak or a massive roofline.
It seems like the majority of high efficiency to passive houses in the upper midwest are pretty modern with low slope roofs. They're fine with snow - most commercial buildings have them. The main thing is that pooling of water can lead to shorter life span of the roofing membrane (so make sure the roof drains fine).
Calling BS on that, I am building right now and my roof pitch is 3/12 and I am using a 20" energy truss and I will have an R-60 insulation level in my net zero ready house. The insulation is blown in cellulose.
Because snow
South Dakota homebuilder here, it’s a funny balance vs most of what I see in the Midwest because we also have to be cognizant of wind so much here that things have averaged out to a 5/12 or 6/12 for the most part and people just end up diligent about ice damming (or not, and find out they should have been).
Any traction doing exterior insulation nowadays? Vapor barrier needs to be kept warm.
We offer it but no one pays to have it added. Market around here chooses to forego it I guess.
Beautiful architectural elements are expensive.
You need a good pitch on the roof to handle the weight of snow. Which, on a modern build footprint ends up meaning fairly high peaks. Easier then to tuck the second floor into that roof space and throw in some dormers than to raise the eaves.
I ain’t been dropping no eaves sir, honest
r/unexpectedlotr
Such a great reference I didn’t expect here has me chuckling at a McDonald’s in Pipestone, MN rn
A bunch of dormers in a conditioned attic are, in point of fact, hard to build right and relatively expensive compared to building another floor. Some problems with that: \* It's not obvious that they're built wrong when you buy the house, only when it starts leaking months, years, or decades later. \* It might not be obvious that the dormers specifically are an insulation / air leakage problem even after decades of paying high utility bills. \* You rarely see their itemized costs; Often quotes occur mostly on the basis of square footage, which just ends up priced higher per square foot because dormers are routine additions \* Municipal zoning height limits
There’s an 80s two story with 3rd floor dormers in one of our McMansion neighborhoods in town. They’re too large and too many, they seem to be sliding off. Proportions are all wrong. I
Often it's snow.. You want that stuff coming down. I have relatives in the Midwest and a lot of those harms are very charming. My home is here in the southwest and we have a lot of tile Spanish roofs.
Around here (southern Ontario) they have those massive steep roofs too, mostly on McMansion type houses but it's just fashion. The houses are so big they all have flat roofs on top, or valleys in the middle of the roof, so they are actually worse for shedding snow than a roof with a reasonable pitch. And the amount of snow we get, the old 4/12 pitch roofs that used to be common are just fine. It's really dumb actually, as they are a PITA to work on if anything needs repaired, so it costs more, plus the roof is much more complex and prone to fail. The fad seems to be finally starting to fade, but I still cringe every time I see one of those houses. Oh, and they are all built with trusses too, so that large attic is totally useless as any kind of living space.
Oh but I love that tiling. It's so beautiful and adds a lot of ornamental detail.
Like others have said, snow is a big thing, but also that quite a few houses have basements because of tornados. Most people don't feel like they need a 2nd floor when they've got a full basement to work with too
Basements are more to due with putting foundations under the frost line. Might as well go a few feet deeper and double the square footage with a basement or walkout
As someone who's lived in tornado alley my whole life, I could care less about the frost line, I ain't buying a house without a basement and a tornado room lol
Various formal reasons in terms of actual shedding water, snow, heating and cooling or whatever. BUT the crux of the question to me is "why isn't it better?". In my opinion (having grown up there and seen the industry now for 15+ years). Its 100% due to the way single family homes are built. Blame DR Horton, Pulte, Lennar, KB Homes, etc. These are the people that have virtually zero incentive to improve anything that they do. The industry is slow moving and as a business model, they are doing everything they possibly can to cheap out and skimp every corner. Ask anyone who has bought a built home by these people --- they are awful. Furthermore, design wise, when working with places like this, you want the most broad appeal to not ostracize anyone. Any element you put onto a home could steer away a potential buyer. Its why everything is as boring vanilla-middle-of-the-road as you can get. This strategy is also why high rises in cities are middle of the road, and sometimes every-other-floor employs different aesthetics slightly to attract a wider group of buyers. You will find great homes done custom by architects and custom builders, however the amount <1% probably (guessing no idea in reality) is so small that they dont enter the public mind and public really doesn't get much exposure to them (unless you read design blogs and whatnot). Even if you do have exposure tho, they cost more for quality (much of the quality hidden such as insulation, waterproofing, etc), so its tough to obtain. Even if you want a modest great home with a flat roof or something else --- its hard to find GCs with experience in it, which ultimately leads to a price premium regardless. Hence the wheel keeps going round and people are forced to keep buying shitty homes.
Small time custom builders are not the golden nugget in comparison to the big builders like you’re convinced of.
>then a massive roof line, then the second floor kinda pops out of the roof. What’s the deal with that? So you see a lot of Cape style homes with dormers in other words? Probably because its cheaper to build that way than a full second story and a lot of modular homes are built this way too now. Everything comes down to $$$. Nice, architectural, and trendy tend to blow up budgets.
No, it's acres of shingles enclosing nothing but unconditioned attic space. Ramblers are dwarfed by enormous roofs with peaks and valleys all over to accommodate the 7 2-foot bump outs they added randomly for "architectural interest". Like this: [https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/prod.monsterhouseplans.com/uploads/images\_plans/50/50-150/50-150e.webp](https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/prod.monsterhouseplans.com/uploads/images_plans/50/50-150/50-150e.webp)
Snow and wind. Wind is counterintuitive. The high slope reduces lift. In the coastal areas they use brackets and tie it all down to the foundation. But once you add in the snow loading the path of least resistance is pretty clear.
Around here all new builds are black and white McMillenials (modern farmhouse).
Building the second floor under the roof is less expensive than building full two story exterior walls and facing them with brick, stucco, stone, or even siding. That’s what my builder clients always say.
Kb homes
Snow loads. You need snow to be able to slide off the roof. Otherwise the snow will build up and crush the building.
It’s like housing has become prohibitively expensive over the last few decades or something..
> prohibitively expensive So expensive, they're prohibited from building.
If you’re at average income, yep
I am not an income, average or otherwise.
Places that may see snow would have slopped roofs so that it doesn’t pile up and collapse the roof.
around me I think it's a property tax thing. A 1.5 story (what you describe) is taxed significantly less than a true 2 story
People say snow and wind and that's true for areas that have it. Our area has no snow any more and wind has never been a problem but we went from 4 and maybe 6 pitch roofs to 10 and 12 in the last 20 years. Some of it has to be fashion
In N IL, N IN, S MI, and W OH…I have not noticed that with new construction. They are all pretty cookie cutter tract homes but they are still 2 story 3/2 and 4/3 homes with full basements no attic. If it’s modern then it’s downtown and it’s just a box that goes right to the setbacks 2 or 3 story with a full basement and rooftop deck.
Everyone is saying snow but we have them in Oklahoma and get snow maybe once a year.
Yeah. Thats all that I see in Oklahoma unless it’s in a million $$ neighborhood. I had heard once that it’s better for airflow in the attic and helps keep the main floor cooler. I’ve also heard that it’s like that for the furnace. I don’t know. Seems like it’s just a money thing. Although, lots of people said that steeper pitched roofs are better for wind and we have plenty of that.
Old people cannot walk up stairs!
Interesting question. People have mentioned snow, rain and wind - and maybe just fossilized designs. In eastern WA ski country there has been a shift to low pitched (1:12) shed roofs. I think a lot of that change came because the houses that get built this way are one story and less obtrusive, and people also got tired of having huge mounds of snow dumped all around the house. At that pitch you have to use crimped seam metal and people usually install snow brakes to keep all the snow on the house until it melts in the spring. You end up having to anchor the roof pretty well where it covers porches (to deal with winds in summer). I suspect it costs more to spread the square footage over one story as opposed to two.
Not to mention the "garage forward" design aesthetic....
If you are talking about production built homes, that’s not the place to look for good architecture.
Because heating and cooling. It’s more efficient this way.
How big are the garages? Usually the garage is 1/4 to 1/3 of the footprint and you need a roof over it. Many times there isn’t a need for that much area on the second floor, so your “kinda pops out of the roof” statement would make sense.
Pretty typical modern 3 car garages. They dominate the front elevation of the house unfortunately
Personally I'd rather go without a garage than have that be the first thing you notice about my house. Mine's the fourth garage on your left. Gaaahhhhh.
My garage is detached. I prefer that because it’s hidden from the street completely and a whole separate space..
I love this.
Part of it is the byproduct of energy codes mandating R-60 attic insulation. Even with blown in cellulose and raised heel trust is it's tough to do on a low pitch roof.
There are so many ways around that, that if that is the reason the architect/designer is not doing their job. A tight well insulated shell doesn't require dormers that leak or a massive roofline.
It seems like the majority of high efficiency to passive houses in the upper midwest are pretty modern with low slope roofs. They're fine with snow - most commercial buildings have them. The main thing is that pooling of water can lead to shorter life span of the roofing membrane (so make sure the roof drains fine).
Calling BS on that, I am building right now and my roof pitch is 3/12 and I am using a 20" energy truss and I will have an R-60 insulation level in my net zero ready house. The insulation is blown in cellulose.