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Thank you for compiling this. It also didn’t help in the beginning that Pela got picked by the initial attack, so she lost her initial shield when the second attack hit and thus her additional protection against Wind Shear from the second attack.
Beyond the Keel builds, Acheron also had a very reasonable 14.2% effres of her own.
Judging by the build and the generally suboptimal team for him in particular, i'd describe this as about average. His performance here would probably be pretty safely considered the worst of the limited sustainers so far, that being said both his build and team comp do not suit his ideal conditions. he's sitting at 34/77 crit ratio which is very realistically low in a normal team, furthermore his performance skyrockets with even 1 FuA member on the team. I wager the nerf to his shield won't affect his placement that much, standard sustain when paired with anyone, incredible SP positive utility sub dps in a Follow up oriented team.
you should pull him if you like him! that being said i'm picking him up for my topaz ratio team, and I'll be on the lookout for Luocha rerun for a more general use sustainer.
I do like him, I think he would be the next best fit for my account, since I’m building a Topaz Ratio team. But I was wondering if he was good or kinda meh. Since you said he was shaping up to be the “worst” of the limited sustainers based on this. Tho he has a bad build. If you managed to reach 4k def and a good crit ratio, would he be good? I do kinda care about meta since I wanna start clearing MoC
he absolutely would be good with 4k def and a good crit ratio. i'm finalizing my potential build for him with 4 pc pioneer and 2 pc salsotto and i've done some calculations. right now with 3.6k def, 22.5/197.6 crit ratio, img dmg% sphere, gepard's lc, his ult crits 31k and fua 20k assuming no other buffs. with topaz his fua crits 30k, and topaz + ruan mei 53k ult, 51k fua. i don't have topaz and i don't intend on pulling for her but i do intend on using him with ruan mei so 53k ult is very good for my standards
i found this calculator made by aventurine mains on twt, you can plug in your own numbers to try it out [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RaZkuMKYn1bvAiqpuAsXrc2HpVVEEarlr0IvZRvYBJ0/edit#gid=0](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RaZkuMKYn1bvAiqpuAsXrc2HpVVEEarlr0IvZRvYBJ0/edit#gid=0)
Quick video showcasing v4 new changes - Acheron's overflowing stacks mechanic from e1 now being in base kit, and Aventurine shields strength nerfed by approximately 10%.
Tested vs upcoming MoC 12 (Sam boss), unit stat pages in-battle are shown early in the video. Also Acheron is using ATK% boots since without signature LC she only generates 1 stack on her own turn anyway.
-- Character Stats BEFORE battle (relatable relics tbh fr):
Acheron E0 + S3 Good Night Sleep Well
65/117 crit, 111 speed, 3055 attack
(Pioneer set + Izumo planar)
Aventurine E0 + S3 Trend of the Universal Market
34/77 crit, 144 speed, 30% effect res
(Knight set + Broken Keel planar)
Silverwolf E0 + S5 Before the Tutorial Mission Starts
115% EHR, 155 speed, 30% effect res
(Hackerspace/Longevous sets + Broken Keel planar)
Pela E6 + S3 Resolution Shines As Pearls of Sweat
85% EHR, 153 speed, 30% effect res
(Hackerspace/Longevous sets + Broken Keel planar)
Honestly i feel like people are putting way too much value on her LC debuff since I don't think it will be an issue if your supports are very fast (plus GNSW dmg still insane)
yeah if you have it most f2p dont ever pull light cone banner so their 4 star light cone situation is dire. i still undecided if I should get acheron E2s1 or skip her and get sparkle E2s1 now. since sparkle looks so op that is not gonna be replaced for a long as time. she is even good for dot team since thenshe forget about her skill and just generates insane sp for 2 dps while also buffing the 2. and that is her worst case.
I was like damn thats some pretty good damage but then I looked at the crit ratio??? I'm at 64/148 before battle (also before her crit damage traces) so I might skip her lightcone to save some pulls
Judging based on 0 cycle potential alone is honestly brainrot, since it heavily favors action advance over basically anything else which obviously puts certain characters at a disadvantage
5 cycles per side seems risky imo. If a DPS can comfortably get 4 cycles in most situations at avg investment, no 5* LCs on the team (except for the Herta ones), and a Standard char in the team w/ at most E1 only, that's how I know it's good
No because 5 cycles is too long, if MOC gets harder suddenly you're fucked. Any clear between 1-3 cycles is good. Past that and you get into murky territory, though tbf certain bosses kind of force longer clears, like Meme.
The problem is if that cycle is cycle 0, you heavily favour characters with frontloaded damage as well as the use of certain strategies that just wouldn't work if the fight goes on any longer
Look. I understand that overly focusing on zero cycles is obnoxious but I think completely discounting it is also not justified. They serve as a way to clearly benchmark the damage output of a dps against each other because the alternative would be to utilize simulations and lets be real most people have a million issues with them because of how arbitrary they can be (example seele not being calculated with resurgence procs for a long time because simulating that is too hard).
As for why finishing one side within 5 cycles is not the standard is because its a real low bar to set. Most dps characters can accomplish this given enough investment and proper team building. Also its counterproductive to tell people that the best dps for any element doesnt matter because you can clear everything with anyone. That isnt what people are looking for. They want the most efficient way to accomplish their goal (which is to reach endgame). And if endgame is clearing content within the amount of cycles allotted then it makes sense that we benchmark the viability of a dps carry based off their ability to clear the content in the lowest number of cycles possible (zero). It isnt the sole factor (of course) but its something that should be considered alongside build efficiency, survivability, consistency, difficulty of navigation , team build flexibility etc
I mean yeah, idrc if people personally want to go for 0 cycles, i just disagree with them saying a character is bad just because they're not good at doing 0 cycles
After trying multiple times and achieving some 0 cycles on MoC 12 I'd say it's really not worth it for all the resets and RNG involved (enemies debuffing the wrong unit, CC, your characters straight up dying lol). It just feels more rewarding going for a very consistent run with a sustain and obtaining a 2 cycle with it.
Sustainless runs are the least build-dependent types of 0 cycles though, which is why pretty much every DPS can achieve them. I agree they're more trouble than their worth though.
To me if a character can clear a side in 3 to 4 cycles is good(most dps), if it clears in 2 cycles or 1 is amazing(like DHIL or JL or the top Kafka teams).
idk why ppl just think Acheron need to nuke every single enemy in the game and just 0 cycle everything or else she is just terrible.
She is newer than both of them so demands are bigger. Why you need to pull for underwhelming unit that is weaker than baseline by default. Parasocial waifu suckers are not counted.
Upvoting this because people seem to forget that Turbulences for MoC are a thing and this showcase doesnt have em.
These buffs / debuffs / extra damage that Turbulences add are one of the reason why most of the people that clear at 5 Cycle can clear it, they are usually very potent AND generic, so even if the first one is tailor made for her, the next one is probably going to be good as well due to how generic they are in general
Big thanks to all the youtubers out there and their one brain cell that screams "0 cycle or trash" in their mind and by extension in their viewers ears.
I'm happy to clear in 10 cycles with a bit of challenge. the current MoC has been really fun for me. I admittedly would be annoyed if it got to the point where I couldn't clear in time though.
I don't think there is that much to complain about Acheron.. She looks good but not groundbreaking like how everyone was saying in the start of the beta.(E6 is though)
Honestly, I like that. I'd rather have multiple DPS units with some a little better or worse, than just having 1 that makes all the other choices feel bad.
Yeah, but mainly because it's fun to change it up a bit. Using my Jing Liu will almost always allow me to clear faster than not using her, usually even on off element fights.
Cocolia, Yanqing, Gepard, Pure Fiction, I can think of a bunch of fights where Jingliu isn't able to pull her weight at all.
My point would be that Jingliu is strong, but she's nowhere "best in slot for everything" like some people make it sound
Jingliu Blade Ruan Mei Sustain works surprisingly well in pure fiction because it's 2 dps with blast attacks plus the blade passive which procs quite a bit. Not optimal obviously but definitely viable enough to clear most rotations
This is the team comp that I used this Pf and got around 28k points on that Node at first try, very close to what it is required per team (and Herta Himeko clearing the other side entirely is more than enough lol)
Just checked, my equally built Jing Yuan and Jingliu both did it in 4 turns, but yeah, Jing Yuan obviously felt better to play because I could actually weakness break a lot more which made the MoC buff stronger.
Both can clear any content at E0S0 pretty easily, chose whoever's playstyle you like more. Also i'd wait for her to release before judging, people were saying BS was only 10% better thuan Sampo..
Go for whatever character you prefer tbh, both of them will clear any content with ease. It really doesn't matter if JL takes a cycle or two less on MoC or Acheron is better than her in PF.
Jingliu is literally slap in any team and she will do her job kind of unit. Kill? Kill ok. Thats just how she is. You wont even feel her HP drain mechanic. And easy to farm since she gets 50 crit rate for free
The supports are just add ons on effect that you want for her. Bronya to reach enhanced state faster + big damage, Tingyun+Huohuo to basically never let JL end her enhanced state, RM if you wanna try dual DPS with Blade. Then there’s her best debuffer that comes for free, Pela. Very F2P friendly unit
I mean, they aren't overwhelmingly better than the others. In fact, the average clear times between all the 5* DPSs are very close to each other. Everything also depends on the type of enemy, the typing, the mechanics it has etc.
Most opinions on character power level in this community seem like complete bullshit or people mixing their SU runs in. You'll see batshit takes but then when you look at the actual real data everyone is usually within 1 cycle.
JL clear times are way better on lower relic substat investment + on top of that her support setups are easier obtainable, because of Bronya in a selector.
TBH I’m considering pulling her just for her insta-kill technique to make farming SU faster. I already have a well built e0s1 Kafka (and an e0 Swan) so I’m pretty much set for lightning DPS for a while. And I’m really interested in Sam, Firefly, Sunday, and Robin, so I’ve got a lot of characters to save up for.
But speeding up SU? So tempting…
My reasoning is the same. She could potentially save so much time over a course of a year by just using her skill in SU.
I'll probably go to 50/50 and see if I win
I'm fairly new, reading this comment section is like another language to me lol. can you break down why she's not groundbreaking and more so a regular unit? Also, it she JL levels of pulling or lower?
We can only speculate on leaks that are subject to change, but as of right now her biggest issue IMO is that her team building is really restricted at E0. You need two Nihility chars, so you're probably using Pela and Gui (unless you have SW and don't need her for another team). Then, unless you're running no sustain, you need specifically a Preservation unit with the Trend LC if you want to maintain decent ult recharge speed. On top of that she doesn't have any good readily available lightcones if you never pulled a GNSW. Even if you meet all those restrictions, at best you're matching or approaching JL damage, but much more backloaded. Eula players from Genshin can tell you how bad it feels to have most of your damage backloaded into your ult.
Other units are much more flexible in terms of supports and can use better harmony characters. That said I'm still pulling for her since I like her design and the technique is a big QOL boost.
I really appreciate this breakdown! Very easy to understand. If this ends up more or less being the final product, as a F2P, I think I may just skip then.
She's nowhere close to Jingliu in power right now, though she has the potential to be several months down the line (like what happened to Kafka).
At E0S0, she would probably be ranked A tier currently. A well invested E0S0 Seele would be able to literally double the damage per cycle Acheron showed here (granted Acheron would also do a lot more damage with higher investment).
These are pretty relatable builds considering i've managed to surpass that Acheron build even with my terrible luck, but for how long are we going to assume that everyone has tutorial mission? It's quite literally unobtainable for everyone that didn't start in 1.1. If you don't have it and pearls is on Pela what do you use on SW?
>It's quite literally unobtainable for everyone that didn't start in 1.1
not quite, i started in 1.1 and didn't get it :) the event literally didn't even last the length of silver wolf's banner
for silverwolf you would use eyes of prey for the EHR increase. The difference with this compared to tutorial is that with eyes of prey you're going for a 4 turn ult compared to a 3 turn ult with tutorial.
For acheron teams this means you're getting 1 less SW ult and therefore 1 less stack of acheron's ult charge over the course of 12 silverwolf turns. My math may not be perfect but it shouldn't be too big of a deal to use Eyes of prey on SW instead of tutorial.
The fact that aventurine can apply 2 debuffs by himself, if you use either his sig lc or trend of the universal market, to support acheron pleases my f2p brain a lot
1. Why tf is Sam so tanky 😭😭
2. The amount of debuffs on his hp bar is absolutely hilarious
3. Acheron looks sickkkk af
4. I suppose even with the nerf Aventurine is still able to solo sustain + fairly sp positive (in a FUA team I guess the shield will refresh more constantly? So this team having no FUA at all means his shield is still strong enough without the constant refresh which is great)
Even though I think he's fully capable of sp positive sustain, I do think Sam is not the most reliable showcase for it. Sam is the softest MoC boss in terms of big hits, because his gimmick is that he doesn't hit that hard but restricts your healing so you can't just top yourself back up. Shielders delete that mechanic so all you're left with is fly swatter Sam.
I think this same team on a more damage oriented enemy like Death or the new Dino would need a skill every now and then.
He was already leaning towards SP neutral at the start of the bleed bot + Sam wave. Some vids against the Dino I've seen elsewhere actually has him skilling every turn to keep shields up. In a FuA team however he'll be more SP-positive, or with E1
I think for most fights you can afford to let damage bleed into your unit's HP pools as long as you clear quickly enough. Unless there's CC involved, as you need the shields to withstand the attack applying the CC for the Effect Res buff to hold
Oh yeah true I forgot Sam exchanged heavy hits for reduced healing.. I guess sth like the IPC guy when he slams or the deer boss or even the swarm attack would be a decent showcase?
I wanna add that Aventurine is sacrificing his sustain and dmg by using Trend of the universal market for Acheron, which has very low DEF base stat. He’s at 3800 DEF with probably 3 DEF main stats here. Normally you’d want at least 4000 DEF outside of combat. Outside of Acheron teams, he can use other lightcones that make both his shield and his dmg better.
THIS. Trend lc interaction with Acheron (which is undoubtedly huge) has made many forget that the lightcone, in EVERY other instance, is just not good 😭 NO sustains would be using this anywhere besides Acheron teams.
1 - Armor. Metal Armor. High Tech Ancient Alien Metal Armor (with RGB).
2 - And there will be more in the future!
3 - True and real.
4 - Of course, why wouldn't he be enough to solo sustain? Shields are stronger against Sam. It's the safest type of mitigation in this fight, naturally being very effective.
Metal armor with rgb is the funniest description of Sam I’ve seen so far 😂😂
Re: shield: I was worried that the shield might not be able to withstand multiple hits especially in a non FUA team where he can’t refresh it that often >.<
> Why tf is Sam so tanky
Checking his stat page, he has 1.3M HP, for reference, current SUD MoC has 550K. He has this much HP because just like Dino, he takes more damage when he's weakness broken and also when you use X amount of SP.
True which I’m very happy about because I have one (1) limited sustain and that is Fuxuan LOL him being able to sustain even without FUA means I can run a non FUA team if need be
This. I'm tired of people who live in rich countries thinking that everyone has money to get the signature light cone of every character they like. Pulling for light cones is a luxury, not a standard
So far, all limited sustains have been "universal", they just have certain niches they will offer more and be preferred to others, such as Aventurine prefering FUA comps and FX being ran with crit-based DPS, etc.
So you can run them anywhere for pure sustain, just there are teams they'll extract more of their own kit, Aventurine does not seem to be an exception to this.
Not really, I run FX + JL and I haven't had a hard time fighting bosses (except for aoe bosses). Although you could technically say FX is a healer sustain..
I like it, they are both very strong, but not stupidly OP, this is how characters should be, as for me, they are really good but not powercreeping everyone else
Topaz doesn't really need *him* given that everyone rn has a Ratio.
Plus his damage build is actually fine. He's obviously not a DPS but his ST damage is pretty decent for the shielding he provides
A lot of them has very low crit though, and since he's usually being run with acheron, his build was sacrificed to support her. I'm not expecting like 70k dmg on him since he's mainly a support, but not even giving him the base def requirement to maximize his crit rate is wasted potential, esp if the build is meant to be be judged
Edit: grammar
Keel for more team support or Salsotto for a more offensive oriented build, I'd probably recommend Salsotto for Aven with his sig LC or in FuA teams, Keel otherwise
Belobog is not great on him because building 50% EHR is a huge waste of stats (all his debuffs are guaranteed except the one from his LC, but his FuA hits 7 times anyway so you won't need EHR)
As for LC obviously his signature is best, but other than that the more defensive options would be either Trend for Acheron and Ratio or Gepard's LC, and the more offensive options would be the new moc preservation LC or Concert for two
Def orb and def rope, for offensive builds imaginary damage and def orb can both work but you need at least 4k def without a def orb to max out his passive in order to run imaginary damage
His best generalist set is 4pc knight set since def improves both his damage and shield and the extra shield strength it gives is really good. If you feel like you already have a strong enough shield and want to improve his damage, 4pc debuff set is very strong on him in teams that apply lots of debuffs. Outside of that, 2pc def and 2pc fua is good too
Yup looks good and her floor isn’t too low because of how her kit is… self buffs and teammate debuffs sufficient to carry even accounts with mid relic luck
Between keel, belebog, and salsatto, it just depends entirsly on what you want
Do you need for def? Belebog
Are you fine on def but want more damage? Salsatto
Are you fine on def but want to support crit dps? Keel
It seems pretty rough honestly - note that she's only ulting once per cycle generally and is doing very little skill damage.
Zero harmony isn't a positive in this comparison since she can't use them.
E0S0 Seele (granted at much higher investment) can get off multiple 200k+ ults per cycle and many skills, some exceeding 100k.
Acheron seems like she'll be alright but nothing to write home about, high A or low S by Prydwen standards.
>E0S0 Seele (granted at much higher investment) can get off multiple 200k+ ults per cycle and many skills, some exceeding 100k.
Come again please?
My Seele reaches maybe 100K I've never seen 200. How is that supposed to happen?
I run her in Mono Quantum with Hanabi.
What kind of absurd artifacts do you have and do you realize that not everyone will manage to get those, yes?
I said much higher investment - I'm at 77/188 and can get 200k+ pretty often when all my buffs and debuffs are up. 100k is very low to the point that it's below skill damage (again with all buffs and debuffs up).
Mono Quantum isn't the best team for her but SW + Sparkle should lead to high ult numbers when everything lines up, even if SW can only fully debuff one target per wave in time (unless you're taking more than 3 cycles)
Mine is at 100/145 @ 2.95K ATK.
Best I can do is 144K with Hanabi ult+skil + SW ult + resurgence.
The Test-Arumaton in MoC 12 was in Sanction mode, so no clue whether that lowers the damage.
Highest skill was I believe 93 K on one of the Fishies.
Silly question, but I'm wondering how you can make a very specific comps? Is everything practically like sandbox mode in Beta version? I mean can you just make character E0 or E6 to your heart content? Same question for LC and relics set. Thanks in advance.
Pioneer Diver set for Acheron. And wait for the next planar ornament set.
As for Aventurine, probably the Knight of Purity Palace. Either 4pc, or 2pc + something else. It depends on whether his damage output is relevant or not. If it is, then damage oriented sets could be an option. You should aim for 4000 DEF anyway in order to maximize his CRIT Rate bonus from his A2 Trace.
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Sam is so freaking tanky.... Imagine making 300k look like a minor inconvenience....
This armor/suit is not for a mere posing.
Weakest soldier of Glamoth
Trailblazer:"WHY WON'T YOU DIE??", SAM: "Propagation power, son"
"IT HEATS UP AND SETS THE SURROUNDING ABLAZE IN RESPONSE TO TRAUMA"
Yup he is It's meme material if the devs was think this 1% HP lose was enough to make him less tanky
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Thank you for compiling this. It also didn’t help in the beginning that Pela got picked by the initial attack, so she lost her initial shield when the second attack hit and thus her additional protection against Wind Shear from the second attack. Beyond the Keel builds, Acheron also had a very reasonable 14.2% effres of her own.
Can I ask is this good or bad result for him?
Judging by the build and the generally suboptimal team for him in particular, i'd describe this as about average. His performance here would probably be pretty safely considered the worst of the limited sustainers so far, that being said both his build and team comp do not suit his ideal conditions. he's sitting at 34/77 crit ratio which is very realistically low in a normal team, furthermore his performance skyrockets with even 1 FuA member on the team. I wager the nerf to his shield won't affect his placement that much, standard sustain when paired with anyone, incredible SP positive utility sub dps in a Follow up oriented team.
So should I still get him if I’m building a Topaz + Ratio team?
you should pull him if you like him! that being said i'm picking him up for my topaz ratio team, and I'll be on the lookout for Luocha rerun for a more general use sustainer.
I do like him, I think he would be the next best fit for my account, since I’m building a Topaz Ratio team. But I was wondering if he was good or kinda meh. Since you said he was shaping up to be the “worst” of the limited sustainers based on this. Tho he has a bad build. If you managed to reach 4k def and a good crit ratio, would he be good? I do kinda care about meta since I wanna start clearing MoC
he absolutely would be good with 4k def and a good crit ratio. i'm finalizing my potential build for him with 4 pc pioneer and 2 pc salsotto and i've done some calculations. right now with 3.6k def, 22.5/197.6 crit ratio, img dmg% sphere, gepard's lc, his ult crits 31k and fua 20k assuming no other buffs. with topaz his fua crits 30k, and topaz + ruan mei 53k ult, 51k fua. i don't have topaz and i don't intend on pulling for her but i do intend on using him with ruan mei so 53k ult is very good for my standards i found this calculator made by aventurine mains on twt, you can plug in your own numbers to try it out [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RaZkuMKYn1bvAiqpuAsXrc2HpVVEEarlr0IvZRvYBJ0/edit#gid=0](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RaZkuMKYn1bvAiqpuAsXrc2HpVVEEarlr0IvZRvYBJ0/edit#gid=0)
Quick video showcasing v4 new changes - Acheron's overflowing stacks mechanic from e1 now being in base kit, and Aventurine shields strength nerfed by approximately 10%. Tested vs upcoming MoC 12 (Sam boss), unit stat pages in-battle are shown early in the video. Also Acheron is using ATK% boots since without signature LC she only generates 1 stack on her own turn anyway. -- Character Stats BEFORE battle (relatable relics tbh fr): Acheron E0 + S3 Good Night Sleep Well 65/117 crit, 111 speed, 3055 attack (Pioneer set + Izumo planar) Aventurine E0 + S3 Trend of the Universal Market 34/77 crit, 144 speed, 30% effect res (Knight set + Broken Keel planar) Silverwolf E0 + S5 Before the Tutorial Mission Starts 115% EHR, 155 speed, 30% effect res (Hackerspace/Longevous sets + Broken Keel planar) Pela E6 + S3 Resolution Shines As Pearls of Sweat 85% EHR, 153 speed, 30% effect res (Hackerspace/Longevous sets + Broken Keel planar)
I really needed to see a showcase like this, with realistic builds. Thank you! :)
Honestly i feel like people are putting way too much value on her LC debuff since I don't think it will be an issue if your supports are very fast (plus GNSW dmg still insane)
Yes but the issue is GNSW is a myth because I never seen it on my account ^obviously ^/s
yeah if you have it most f2p dont ever pull light cone banner so their 4 star light cone situation is dire. i still undecided if I should get acheron E2s1 or skip her and get sparkle E2s1 now. since sparkle looks so op that is not gonna be replaced for a long as time. she is even good for dot team since thenshe forget about her skill and just generates insane sp for 2 dps while also buffing the 2. and that is her worst case.
ty for the relatable relics <3
I was like damn thats some pretty good damage but then I looked at the crit ratio??? I'm at 64/148 before battle (also before her crit damage traces) so I might skip her lightcone to save some pulls
Pela took damage, Aventurine is totally unplayable after nerfs 😔
Had me in the first half ngl
so she does big damage with common stat relics despite what people have been saying about her?
Wait what is the lineup? Meme on one side and Sam on the other right?
That's about how long it takes me to clear with my teams, so seems accurate. "0 cycle clear" has always been a nonsense string of words in my mind.
Judging based on 0 cycle potential alone is honestly brainrot, since it heavily favors action advance over basically anything else which obviously puts certain characters at a disadvantage
"cozy comfortable 5 cycle clear per side" should be the standard imo
5 cycles per side seems risky imo. If a DPS can comfortably get 4 cycles in most situations at avg investment, no 5* LCs on the team (except for the Herta ones), and a Standard char in the team w/ at most E1 only, that's how I know it's good
No because 5 cycles is too long, if MOC gets harder suddenly you're fucked. Any clear between 1-3 cycles is good. Past that and you get into murky territory, though tbf certain bosses kind of force longer clears, like Meme.
Then every DPS is on the same level, even 4 stars. Judging damage dealers by how much damage they can output in a cycle seems perfectly valid to me.
The problem is if that cycle is cycle 0, you heavily favour characters with frontloaded damage as well as the use of certain strategies that just wouldn't work if the fight goes on any longer
Look. I understand that overly focusing on zero cycles is obnoxious but I think completely discounting it is also not justified. They serve as a way to clearly benchmark the damage output of a dps against each other because the alternative would be to utilize simulations and lets be real most people have a million issues with them because of how arbitrary they can be (example seele not being calculated with resurgence procs for a long time because simulating that is too hard). As for why finishing one side within 5 cycles is not the standard is because its a real low bar to set. Most dps characters can accomplish this given enough investment and proper team building. Also its counterproductive to tell people that the best dps for any element doesnt matter because you can clear everything with anyone. That isnt what people are looking for. They want the most efficient way to accomplish their goal (which is to reach endgame). And if endgame is clearing content within the amount of cycles allotted then it makes sense that we benchmark the viability of a dps carry based off their ability to clear the content in the lowest number of cycles possible (zero). It isnt the sole factor (of course) but its something that should be considered alongside build efficiency, survivability, consistency, difficulty of navigation , team build flexibility etc
Robin gonna be a must pull for content creators with AI voice
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I mean yeah, idrc if people personally want to go for 0 cycles, i just disagree with them saying a character is bad just because they're not good at doing 0 cycles
After trying multiple times and achieving some 0 cycles on MoC 12 I'd say it's really not worth it for all the resets and RNG involved (enemies debuffing the wrong unit, CC, your characters straight up dying lol). It just feels more rewarding going for a very consistent run with a sustain and obtaining a 2 cycle with it.
Agree, sustainless multi-reset 0 cycle runs are overrated asf and way out of touch.
Sustainless runs are the least build-dependent types of 0 cycles though, which is why pretty much every DPS can achieve them. I agree they're more trouble than their worth though.
To me if a character can clear a side in 3 to 4 cycles is good(most dps), if it clears in 2 cycles or 1 is amazing(like DHIL or JL or the top Kafka teams). idk why ppl just think Acheron need to nuke every single enemy in the game and just 0 cycle everything or else she is just terrible.
She is newer than both of them so demands are bigger. Why you need to pull for underwhelming unit that is weaker than baseline by default. Parasocial waifu suckers are not counted.
Yup, people cry about powercreep but then wamt every new dps to be as good or better than jingliu, it's crazy lol
This is without any turbulence. If anything it would be a faster clear with a turbulence effect.
Upvoting this because people seem to forget that Turbulences for MoC are a thing and this showcase doesnt have em. These buffs / debuffs / extra damage that Turbulences add are one of the reason why most of the people that clear at 5 Cycle can clear it, they are usually very potent AND generic, so even if the first one is tailor made for her, the next one is probably going to be good as well due to how generic they are in general
Big thanks to all the youtubers out there and their one brain cell that screams "0 cycle or trash" in their mind and by extension in their viewers ears.
I'm happy to clear in 10 cycles with a bit of challenge. the current MoC has been really fun for me. I admittedly would be annoyed if it got to the point where I couldn't clear in time though.
Agreed. In the end if it took 0 or 10 cycles, you get the same rewards.
And then enemy HP doubles in the next MoC and you are fucked.
And then 3.0 comes and MoC requiring 3 teams
I think I'd prefer that than powercreeping. But realistically both would happen at once.
Rip bozo to the whole community’s sanity if/when that happens. Thats a whole lot more supports we need
💀
I don't think there is that much to complain about Acheron.. She looks good but not groundbreaking like how everyone was saying in the start of the beta.(E6 is though)
Honestly, I like that. I'd rather have multiple DPS units with some a little better or worse, than just having 1 that makes all the other choices feel bad.
That ship has sailed, JL and IL exist
Fun fact: Even JL and IL owners are still using their other characters all the time.
Yeah, but mainly because it's fun to change it up a bit. Using my Jing Liu will almost always allow me to clear faster than not using her, usually even on off element fights.
Cocolia, Yanqing, Gepard, Pure Fiction, I can think of a bunch of fights where Jingliu isn't able to pull her weight at all. My point would be that Jingliu is strong, but she's nowhere "best in slot for everything" like some people make it sound
Jingliu Blade Ruan Mei Sustain works surprisingly well in pure fiction because it's 2 dps with blast attacks plus the blade passive which procs quite a bit. Not optimal obviously but definitely viable enough to clear most rotations
This is the team comp that I used this Pf and got around 28k points on that Node at first try, very close to what it is required per team (and Herta Himeko clearing the other side entirely is more than enough lol)
Just checked, my equally built Jing Yuan and Jingliu both did it in 4 turns, but yeah, Jing Yuan obviously felt better to play because I could actually weakness break a lot more which made the MoC buff stronger.
Yea... dan il user here and jl it gonna feel worse if you own them-
So IL & JL are still better then her for f2p level investment?
Yes 100% you can use fell of aeon and hit 200k and end on 1 to 2 cycles they use there powers 4 times so they blow her out of water i use both
Thanks for sharing cuz as f2p i can either get her or JL with current savings... I'd just go with JL (since I've blade too for subdps)
Both can clear any content at E0S0 pretty easily, chose whoever's playstyle you like more. Also i'd wait for her to release before judging, people were saying BS was only 10% better thuan Sampo..
Go for whatever character you prefer tbh, both of them will clear any content with ease. It really doesn't matter if JL takes a cycle or two less on MoC or Acheron is better than her in PF.
If you have to chose between both choose JL a 100% man she will carry you through all content in the game i can say that as a f2p player
they always been stronger then her, also she is generally a not good choice for ftp that there is no ftp cone for her while dhil and jl have aeon
Jingliu is literally slap in any team and she will do her job kind of unit. Kill? Kill ok. Thats just how she is. You wont even feel her HP drain mechanic. And easy to farm since she gets 50 crit rate for free The supports are just add ons on effect that you want for her. Bronya to reach enhanced state faster + big damage, Tingyun+Huohuo to basically never let JL end her enhanced state, RM if you wanna try dual DPS with Blade. Then there’s her best debuffer that comes for free, Pela. Very F2P friendly unit
I mean, they aren't overwhelmingly better than the others. In fact, the average clear times between all the 5* DPSs are very close to each other. Everything also depends on the type of enemy, the typing, the mechanics it has etc.
Most opinions on character power level in this community seem like complete bullshit or people mixing their SU runs in. You'll see batshit takes but then when you look at the actual real data everyone is usually within 1 cycle.
JL clear times are way better on lower relic substat investment + on top of that her support setups are easier obtainable, because of Bronya in a selector.
TBH I’m considering pulling her just for her insta-kill technique to make farming SU faster. I already have a well built e0s1 Kafka (and an e0 Swan) so I’m pretty much set for lightning DPS for a while. And I’m really interested in Sam, Firefly, Sunday, and Robin, so I’ve got a lot of characters to save up for. But speeding up SU? So tempting…
My reasoning is the same. She could potentially save so much time over a course of a year by just using her skill in SU. I'll probably go to 50/50 and see if I win
I'm fairly new, reading this comment section is like another language to me lol. can you break down why she's not groundbreaking and more so a regular unit? Also, it she JL levels of pulling or lower?
We can only speculate on leaks that are subject to change, but as of right now her biggest issue IMO is that her team building is really restricted at E0. You need two Nihility chars, so you're probably using Pela and Gui (unless you have SW and don't need her for another team). Then, unless you're running no sustain, you need specifically a Preservation unit with the Trend LC if you want to maintain decent ult recharge speed. On top of that she doesn't have any good readily available lightcones if you never pulled a GNSW. Even if you meet all those restrictions, at best you're matching or approaching JL damage, but much more backloaded. Eula players from Genshin can tell you how bad it feels to have most of your damage backloaded into your ult. Other units are much more flexible in terms of supports and can use better harmony characters. That said I'm still pulling for her since I like her design and the technique is a big QOL boost.
I really appreciate this breakdown! Very easy to understand. If this ends up more or less being the final product, as a F2P, I think I may just skip then.
She's nowhere close to Jingliu in power right now, though she has the potential to be several months down the line (like what happened to Kafka). At E0S0, she would probably be ranked A tier currently. A well invested E0S0 Seele would be able to literally double the damage per cycle Acheron showed here (granted Acheron would also do a lot more damage with higher investment).
She looks like a better version of Serval. I’m skipping
Big 10% better than Sampo energy here.
These are pretty relatable builds considering i've managed to surpass that Acheron build even with my terrible luck, but for how long are we going to assume that everyone has tutorial mission? It's quite literally unobtainable for everyone that didn't start in 1.1. If you don't have it and pearls is on Pela what do you use on SW?
Showtime for damage or Eyes for the effect hit rate.
Yep
Eyes of prey for cope ehr.
>It's quite literally unobtainable for everyone that didn't start in 1.1 not quite, i started in 1.1 and didn't get it :) the event literally didn't even last the length of silver wolf's banner
Silverwolf apply debuff literally by doing any action, build her with high ehr
for silverwolf you would use eyes of prey for the EHR increase. The difference with this compared to tutorial is that with eyes of prey you're going for a 4 turn ult compared to a 3 turn ult with tutorial. For acheron teams this means you're getting 1 less SW ult and therefore 1 less stack of acheron's ult charge over the course of 12 silverwolf turns. My math may not be perfect but it shouldn't be too big of a deal to use Eyes of prey on SW instead of tutorial.
I wish Himeko had that overstack counter like Aventurine
The fact that aventurine can apply 2 debuffs by himself, if you use either his sig lc or trend of the universal market, to support acheron pleases my f2p brain a lot
How do I give you a like for this? :)) Thanks for the relatable showcase of E0S0
is v4 the last beta? so no changes on their kit after this?
Chances are very low but can happen, wouldn't bank on it tho
Probably not but it has a chance
There is still v5
No there isn't, this is the last one.
1. Why tf is Sam so tanky 😭😭 2. The amount of debuffs on his hp bar is absolutely hilarious 3. Acheron looks sickkkk af 4. I suppose even with the nerf Aventurine is still able to solo sustain + fairly sp positive (in a FUA team I guess the shield will refresh more constantly? So this team having no FUA at all means his shield is still strong enough without the constant refresh which is great)
Even though I think he's fully capable of sp positive sustain, I do think Sam is not the most reliable showcase for it. Sam is the softest MoC boss in terms of big hits, because his gimmick is that he doesn't hit that hard but restricts your healing so you can't just top yourself back up. Shielders delete that mechanic so all you're left with is fly swatter Sam. I think this same team on a more damage oriented enemy like Death or the new Dino would need a skill every now and then.
He was already leaning towards SP neutral at the start of the bleed bot + Sam wave. Some vids against the Dino I've seen elsewhere actually has him skilling every turn to keep shields up. In a FuA team however he'll be more SP-positive, or with E1 I think for most fights you can afford to let damage bleed into your unit's HP pools as long as you clear quickly enough. Unless there's CC involved, as you need the shields to withstand the attack applying the CC for the Effect Res buff to hold
Oh yeah true I forgot Sam exchanged heavy hits for reduced healing.. I guess sth like the IPC guy when he slams or the deer boss or even the swarm attack would be a decent showcase?
I wanna add that Aventurine is sacrificing his sustain and dmg by using Trend of the universal market for Acheron, which has very low DEF base stat. He’s at 3800 DEF with probably 3 DEF main stats here. Normally you’d want at least 4000 DEF outside of combat. Outside of Acheron teams, he can use other lightcones that make both his shield and his dmg better.
THIS. Trend lc interaction with Acheron (which is undoubtedly huge) has made many forget that the lightcone, in EVERY other instance, is just not good 😭 NO sustains would be using this anywhere besides Acheron teams.
1 - Armor. Metal Armor. High Tech Ancient Alien Metal Armor (with RGB). 2 - And there will be more in the future! 3 - True and real. 4 - Of course, why wouldn't he be enough to solo sustain? Shields are stronger against Sam. It's the safest type of mitigation in this fight, naturally being very effective.
Metal armor with rgb is the funniest description of Sam I’ve seen so far 😂😂 Re: shield: I was worried that the shield might not be able to withstand multiple hits especially in a non FUA team where he can’t refresh it that often >.<
> Why tf is Sam so tanky Checking his stat page, he has 1.3M HP, for reference, current SUD MoC has 550K. He has this much HP because just like Dino, he takes more damage when he's weakness broken and also when you use X amount of SP.
Sheesh 1.3M hp 😭😭 ah true yeah on the weakness broken thing but still feels bad
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He does??? Okay never knew that, was too busy panicking while fighting him >.< thanks!!
It really shows just how good his sustain is even in a team with 0 FUAs
True which I’m very happy about because I have one (1) limited sustain and that is Fuxuan LOL him being able to sustain even without FUA means I can run a non FUA team if need be
Despite all of that she did manage to take care of Sam within 3 cycles. Impressive feat
300K on ult everytime with no her lightcone is impressive
with her light cone she does like 200k+ single target
big numbers are nice i get it, but you don't need to invest on a light cone when you can clear content without it, that's my logic at least
I just want to add that this is with an s3 GNSW so if you don’t have that LC for her her dmg falls of a cliff
Can’t disagree here
Yeah i don’t have GNSW so i’m skipping lol
The way I have s11 of that light cone but no Trend preservation lc
Because the content has steadily been increasing in difficulty for one
I'll pull for her LC just because of the art. I couldn't give less of a damn about the stats. game is easy as is already.
You are pulling her LC for the art. I am pulling the LC for the art. We are the same. 🤝
Ayyyyy 🙏
And with a shitty crit ratio, 81/149 in battle is low as hell
It is? 👀
I will upboat every e0s0 showcase because I want to not normalize e0s1 being the default. EDIT: S3 GNSW as well, even more relatable. Props to you OP.
This. I'm tired of people who live in rich countries thinking that everyone has money to get the signature light cone of every character they like. Pulling for light cones is a luxury, not a standard
true as shit, in genshin literally no1 expects you to have a signature weapon but here all fucking leaks showcase e0s1
Imma be honest ave literally look so good out of fua teams this proof he can be universal
So far, all limited sustains have been "universal", they just have certain niches they will offer more and be preferred to others, such as Aventurine prefering FUA comps and FX being ran with crit-based DPS, etc. So you can run them anywhere for pure sustain, just there are teams they'll extract more of their own kit, Aventurine does not seem to be an exception to this.
Blade and JL will prefer a healer sustain rather than a strong shield.
Not sure JL perfer a healer but Blade 100% does.
Not really, I run FX + JL and I haven't had a hard time fighting bosses (except for aoe bosses). Although you could technically say FX is a healer sustain..
fu xuan still has a little bit of healing, so she doesn't feel as uncomfortable with jingliu
ITS WIN STEP CLOSER TO MAKE MONO IMAGINARY 🙏🙏🙏
Tru, but he shines best in Topaz+DR+RM
He's really good for Acheron since both Market and his Sig contribute to the stacks and his Ult also additionally debuffs.
someday we will see an actually decently built aven,,,
Lol, every day i was like: ‘surely he will get one showcase today’. But Acheron is popular so … maybe next week if no more changes.
117 cd and still dishing out that kinda dmg then i have hope for even more dmg with my build now.
I like it, they are both very strong, but not stupidly OP, this is how characters should be, as for me, they are really good but not powercreeping everyone else
How come NO leakers are building this man with dmg😭
Some do but if you don't have his LC it's very hard to build him up enough to do damage and almost not worth it
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Build him with the new debuff set get to 4k def use crit dmg body and 2pc salsato and ur good to go U just need alot of def roles
Bc the damge built is bait the fua thing only to trigger topaz fua bc she needs it so bad
Anything can trigger Topaz's FUA. What are you talking about?
Topaz doesn’t really need it bad though she just wants Dr Ratio. Aventurine is nice but it’s not something Topaz desperately needs
Topaz doesn't really need *him* given that everyone rn has a Ratio. Plus his damage build is actually fine. He's obviously not a DPS but his ST damage is pretty decent for the shielding he provides
On the showcase with the FUA team and the E0S1 builds he did 18% of the team damage. It's definitely not bait.
Lots of them are, he just doesn't do that much damage.
A lot of them has very low crit though, and since he's usually being run with acheron, his build was sacrificed to support her. I'm not expecting like 70k dmg on him since he's mainly a support, but not even giving him the base def requirement to maximize his crit rate is wasted potential, esp if the build is meant to be be judged Edit: grammar
All these showcase making me feel like if I don't Have sw am fkd
So who's another option if u don't have silverwolf?
Pela/Gui are the budget debuff applicators and Nihility
Im a day1 player with no GNSW, yes not a single copy of it, i feel so bad now
They can make his follow up attack go past 7 stacks but poor Himeko maxes at 3
Whats Aventurine bis LC and planar set? I've been farming belobog... but Idk if its the best.
For defensive aventurine. Knight set and broken keel are the best
Thank you! Damn I feel like wasted TB power...
For LC. 2bh anything that has high base def and def%. And no problem o7
I have Gepards LC. So I'm with that. Problem its the kneel set, starting farming it..
Also, whats the best main stats: DEF% for both or IMG dmg% and ER rope?
Def body, sphere and rope. The difference in ERR doesn't change by much if u can trigger his FuA often.
Def body... I was thinking about crit DMG for knight body. Is it bad?
Crit dmg body isn't worth it when playing defensive. The dmg doesn't change much (if at all)
Keel for more team support or Salsotto for a more offensive oriented build, I'd probably recommend Salsotto for Aven with his sig LC or in FuA teams, Keel otherwise Belobog is not great on him because building 50% EHR is a huge waste of stats (all his debuffs are guaranteed except the one from his LC, but his FuA hits 7 times anyway so you won't need EHR) As for LC obviously his signature is best, but other than that the more defensive options would be either Trend for Acheron and Ratio or Gepard's LC, and the more offensive options would be the new moc preservation LC or Concert for two
I see, thank you! For main stats, DEF% or Imaginary dmage%? DEF% or ER rope?
Def orb and def rope, for offensive builds imaginary damage and def orb can both work but you need at least 4k def without a def orb to max out his passive in order to run imaginary damage
Thank you!! I see
What is his best relic set btw? A mix of def and fua two pieces?
His best generalist set is 4pc knight set since def improves both his damage and shield and the extra shield strength it gives is really good. If you feel like you already have a strong enough shield and want to improve his damage, 4pc debuff set is very strong on him in teams that apply lots of debuffs. Outside of that, 2pc def and 2pc fua is good too
Yup looks good and her floor isn’t too low because of how her kit is… self buffs and teammate debuffs sufficient to carry even accounts with mid relic luck
so keel is better than belabog? I'm been hoarding the wrong set this whole time....
Between keel, belebog, and salsatto, it just depends entirsly on what you want Do you need for def? Belebog Are you fine on def but want more damage? Salsatto Are you fine on def but want to support crit dps? Keel
300k for a E0S0 with 0 harmony is insane.
Also she has pretty low crit dmg
It seems pretty rough honestly - note that she's only ulting once per cycle generally and is doing very little skill damage. Zero harmony isn't a positive in this comparison since she can't use them. E0S0 Seele (granted at much higher investment) can get off multiple 200k+ ults per cycle and many skills, some exceeding 100k. Acheron seems like she'll be alright but nothing to write home about, high A or low S by Prydwen standards.
>E0S0 Seele (granted at much higher investment) can get off multiple 200k+ ults per cycle and many skills, some exceeding 100k. Come again please? My Seele reaches maybe 100K I've never seen 200. How is that supposed to happen? I run her in Mono Quantum with Hanabi. What kind of absurd artifacts do you have and do you realize that not everyone will manage to get those, yes?
I said much higher investment - I'm at 77/188 and can get 200k+ pretty often when all my buffs and debuffs are up. 100k is very low to the point that it's below skill damage (again with all buffs and debuffs up). Mono Quantum isn't the best team for her but SW + Sparkle should lead to high ult numbers when everything lines up, even if SW can only fully debuff one target per wave in time (unless you're taking more than 3 cycles)
Mine is at 100/145 @ 2.95K ATK. Best I can do is 144K with Hanabi ult+skil + SW ult + resurgence. The Test-Arumaton in MoC 12 was in Sanction mode, so no clue whether that lowers the damage. Highest skill was I believe 93 K on one of the Fishies.
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one brain cell clickbait youtubers: OMG ACHERON IS USELESS WITHOUT HER SIG LIGHTCONE
Sounds more like Reddit users than YT
Well damn. My Acheron is gonna be much stronger than this. Crazy strong even with poor stats.
Nice QoL buff for E0 if you wanna wait to unleash the ult until after all the debuffs are applied.
Does Aventurine need his LC for his follow ups to count as debuff ? or E1 ?
Silly question, but I'm wondering how you can make a very specific comps? Is everything practically like sandbox mode in Beta version? I mean can you just make character E0 or E6 to your heart content? Same question for LC and relics set. Thanks in advance.
If I don't have SW, what would be her best replacement: Guinaifen or Black Swan? (both are already fully build)
That's the best f2p showcase so far with the worst acheron build, i love it
Trend on aventurine procs acheron ult charge even its on enemies turn? does this work on gepard shield too?
yes
hi, just passing by to ask if there are relic and planar set we can prefarm for acheron and aventurine plus the stats we should try to get or no?
Pioneer Diver set for Acheron. And wait for the next planar ornament set. As for Aventurine, probably the Knight of Purity Palace. Either 4pc, or 2pc + something else. It depends on whether his damage output is relevant or not. If it is, then damage oriented sets could be an option. You should aim for 4000 DEF anyway in order to maximize his CRIT Rate bonus from his A2 Trace.
Can I ask why people say that her kit is backloaded? is it the ultimate or what? I didnt look at the leaks much except for this video