I quite like killteam in terms of the modern games, but damn the card gamers injecting their stuff into the tabletop is really pain in the arse for me, I hate all the “gotcha” shit, and the constant creep.
I like the new models, I dislike the new scale.
To be honest it all seems a bit messy now with too many ideas pulling in too many directions.
The lore was perfect around 2nd/3rd, trying to move a sandbox universe story forwards seems destined to failure; the story’s should be made by the players within their local playgroups in a sandbox universe:- too much of the mystery is vanishing.
Wyf is with primarch coming back? They were “mythical creatures” lost in time.
Rant over
I am 100% in agreement with you. The plot should never have advanced, the rules should have remained narrative-driven, and the bolt-on stuff (cards) should have remained exclusive to spin-off games where that level of nuance was more manageable.
Out of curiosity, which edition do you currently play most? I personally like 4th, but with all the 3rd Edition Codicies and supplements.
I played 3 games of 9th and was like wtf is this shit, came in at the end.
Played 8-9 games of 10th, was ok but when the codexes started dropping the bloat and gotchas started to flow.
2nd 3rd and kill team is my go to. Haven’t played the others.
2nd is a good days games, 3rd is fast as hell 1-2 hours.
I think the constant balancing and errata to books and lists is also a pain, didn’t have that shit in the past, who the fuck cares about tournament balance really? Majority of players are small local groups
Yeah, I played a couple of games of 9th, and I wasn't persuaded. I never even bothered with 10th. I took one look at the previews and just said "Fuck it, I'm going back to the older rules.".
That's interesting. I haven't actually played 2nd (I wasn't born when it came out, lol), but I hear a lot of good things. People seem to praise the nuance and storytelling, but agree that some of the rules are a bit of a mess.
I understand that people were upset when 3rd stripped a lot of stuff out, and I get it, but the 3rd Ed rules are actually extremely tight and flow very nicely. If you flesh it out with a few of the supplements, it's actually a very fun, fluffy game, even if it lacks the bells and whistles of 2nd.
I'll have to give 2nd a try some time!
Gorkamorka is a big favourite to entice new people in, it’s stupid brutal and can’t be taken seriously. A loss is just as much fun as a win.
It got a bad rep because it nearly killed games workshop(mostly due to suits who didn’t know the market pulling the strings) but is a great pick up game.
Something about business men making decisions on products and markets they don’t truly understand; is something like that happening again?
I haven't actually tried Gorkamorka, but it's one of those things I've always wanted to "'ave a go" at. xD I'll check it out if I get the opportunity!
Yes, I do think that's currently happening. Or, worse still, activists in the lower orders are making noise to get their views pumped into the hobby. Have you seen the recent community post criticising "reactionary" hobbyists?
You've summarised my general position quite nicely. The HH books have been an utter disaster for the setting, turning it into some weird fucking anime drama.
Extenuating circumstances are a real thing. If you truly consider 40k to be your main hobby, and you spend a lot of time with it, then you're a real fan.
100% grognard here. Although I'm now closer to casual since I dislike 10th and the direction so much I can't stand playing it.
You forgot one although it might fit under another category:
The competitive player who doesn't care at all about the hobby and is only here because it's the most popular competitive wargame. I've spoken to a few people over the years who are like that. No interest in the lore or models just wanted a competitive game with support and lots of potential opponents.
I'd still call you a committed Grognard. Only playing the absolute latest rules isn't a requirement for being a Fan.
That's a good addition, though. I'll tack it on later. 😊
Started playing at the very tail end of 2nd, just long enough to learn the basics and have everything change when 3rd launched. I also like seeing things change and the story evolve but still have a soft spot for nostalgia; guess I'd be a veteran?
Guess I'm just casual., read the books and borrow my friends death guard army to fight his Tau army haha. It's alot of fun. His brothers come over and we'll do a weekend.
I'm a bit of of a mix of Fan, Amateur, and old guard.
Played epic, blood bowl, warhammer (before it was called WHF), necromunda back in late 80's through to mid/late 90's as a kid and teen.
A fair bit of other geek interests overlapping - D&D, MTG, computer games etc...
By the late 90's I was a skint student, didn't have as much time or money, gradually lapsed out of pretty much all my hobbies.
Spent better part of 20 years as an alcohol and substance abusers afterwards.
Started recovery around 2016, eventually made it stick when I started collecting and painting 40k and AoS models.
Have stayed clean and dry ever since!
I know there's a few others like me out there, so I'd suggest another hobby archetype; "The returnee". Or perhaps "The treatment plan".
Congrats on getting clean!
I'll consider adding types for those who leave and those who rejoin the hobby. However, I think we can definitely call you a Fan. You also fit the category of Veteran, just about, in that you joined a long time ago and are joined up again now.
I suppose you're the sort of Veteran who "served in the last war", and has "re-enlisted" several years ago (like, 8 years ago, which is a long time). That still makes you a Veteran, as far as I'm concerned. :)
I hate this, we shouldn’t be in such a rush to label people, rank them, or insult them. This is the type of thing that can make this forum just as toxic as any of the others. This desire to gate-keep and see yourself above others has been a big problem for a long time and doubling down on it can be counterproductive at best. It’s not hard to talk about things without these types of insider terms. If you need to feel like your part of some in group or cool kid because of how into 40K you are, find a better sense of self, you’re part of the problem and why so many people would rather tolerate other political groups taking over the hobby. They at least pretend to be inclusive.
It’s always done by arrogant and exclusionary types and it has caused 40K to have bad reputations and a hard time finding new fans for years. Also it’s almost always a coping mechanism for the angry and insecure who don’t want to deal with their shit. Gatekeepers often only want people just like them so that they can pretend their is something special about people just like them.
You correct in 1 part: gatekeepers want people just like them. Yes! Exactly. Gatekeepers want people like them who come into the hobby and enjoy it for what it is without trying to change it. Gatekeeping is important
Being able to label and understand ideas is fundamental in understanding them. When an intolerant ideology seeks to eliminate opposition, it will attempt to erase words which can be used to understand and undermine it. This list is an effort to do the opposite.
Gatekeeping is fundamentally good for the hobby. It lets in the Newbies and Casuals and keeps out any troublemakers (Hustlers, Activists, Anti-Fans, and obnoxious Tourists). This is also GW's official policy, except that they specifically choose to gatekeep "extremists", rather than just anyone who is causing problems.
If you don't gatekeep that which you care about, it will become like any other public place - trashy, noisy, and without its own identity. If you want to protect something, making it exclusive is mandatory.
The only problem 40K has is people wanting to possess it and have it fit their identity, people who use 40K and tired cliches as excuses to self aggrandize and belittle others.
You are one of those people. I don’t want you to not enjoy 40K, I just don’t want you being a dick about it or keeping other people from being able to enjoy it. Nobody who wants to gatekeep is ever all that interesting anyways. You’re part of the problem, I don’t want to get rid of you though, I just think you could behave better.
There are people with issues out there and some of them find their ways to 40K, and while that could be a growth opportunity it never is because by they cluster with like minded people with similar issues. Trying to weed then out just fractures the community into echo chambers and it always gets over or misapplied and leads to purity spirals. That’s why I can make the same comments here to you as I would elsewhere to the very types of people you may be hoping to gate keep.
Most of our culture is shit now and you’re not the first to try gate keeping. Grow up, it doesn’t work. Even in 40K there’s been issues for years and the gatekeepers have just fed the issues. Just try to be better and encourage others to be, too. Don’t exclude people, just discourage bad behavior.
Actually, I'm *not* using 40k as a mouthpiece for my own politics. On the contrary, I am a hobby purist; I want to exclude *all* politics from the hobby and keep it true to its authentic self. If that means pushing back against particularly invasive ideologies (whether that's Christian Fundamentalism or Wokeness), so be it.
As I said before, gatekeeping is an essential part of preserving any hobby. If you let in trashy people, the community becomes trashy. This is obvious, and I have explained in my above definitions how and why people come in and damage the hobby space.
The thing about a gate is that it can be either opened or closed. The idea of gatekeeping is that you let in nice, positive people, and exclude horrible, negative people.
You describe the process of removing negative people as "weeding", yet you decry the practice. Why? Do you want the garden to be full of weeds? I don't.
You say gatekeeping doesn't work. No, I disagree; the problem is that we haven't been gatekeeping *enough*. We have been too tolerant of those with disruptive opinions and personalities, and now the weeds have taken root. The solution now is to go about removing them with more determination, not abandon the garden to the weed menace.
How do you think the hobby became established in the first place? There was no internet or websites, it was word of mouth around LIKE MINDED friends.
Was it widespread? Intercontinental? Not really.
Was it inclusive? Nope, it was mostly isolated in groups of young men and boys who generally got left behind, or excluded from other activities.
Edit
If GW gos broke and folds it matters not a jot, there’s 40 years of models and editions of various games that will be eminently more available due to lack of copyrighting and 3d printing and eBay and electronic publications
What's your point? That gatekeeping is only an internet phenomenon, because real-life hobby groups *always* let in randos? No, that just isn't true.
Read "Geeks, Mops, and Sociopaths" to understand the life-cycle of a hobby or subculture. It's only a 5-minute read, but it explains how such things arise and are created.
In brief, though, subcultures are created by likeminded groups. They start out as a group of friends, then come friends of friends, and so on. When the group is small enough, gatekeeping happens naturally, as anyone disruptive is socially ostracised until they leave. As the group gets bigger, though, and strangers start to join, that is when active gatekeeping becomes necessary.
A healthy hobby group will naturally have the more experienced and loyal members gatekeep those who are negative or disruptive, whilst letting in new enthusiasts. This is done either literally (stopping them getting into the building), or by way of top-down social pressure. However, a group which doesn't gatekeep will eventually become swarmed by those who don't really care about the hobby, and just want to use it for any number of extraneous reasons (political soapboxing, picking up girls, etc.). When this happens, the hobby space becomes toxic, either the original fans are exiled from their own space as "killjoys" by the mob, or the community collapses and the original fans are left to pick up the pieces.
Either way, yes, gatekeeping *does* happen IRL, and it's a necessary part of keeping a community happy and intact.
My point is that the hobby did just fine and more despite being an outlier and full of outcasts. Outsiders didn’t want to be a part of it so it didn’t need to be gate kept.
Everything gets watered down to the lowest common denominator with increased mass appeal.
Everything becomes shit once it has mass appeal.
I don’t plan on giving GW money ever again, but then again I don’t necessarily have enough money for them to care anyways. Right now they are retreating upmarket too much, but you can’t blame them if they wanted to grow their market. It’s an IP that’s tied to a company that sells stuff. If you’re ability to enjoy that product relies on you being exclusive, then you would be a liability to any attempts to find new customers. I don’t think GW has to or should be choosing new fans over old, but given how many of its vocal old fans seem to want to keep 40K small, I almost can’t blame them for how they have flipped off old fans while flailing for new ones by pandering. Almost.
Point is, being exclusionary doesn’t really encourage GW to not make changes to broaden appeal, and it can do just the opposite. It’s much easier for GW to pander to modern left wing political types than it is to try and build a business around exclusionary fans with attitudes akin to the comic shop guy the Simpson’s used to make fun of, plus there’s probably more money in it, too. As someone who mainly enjoys the lore I have decades worth of stuff that I like, but I want to share that with others if possible, and every 40K community turning into an echo chamber of one sort or another always makes 40K less welcoming and more boring.
You already said it was never inclusive, and now you are claiming people were never exclusionary. Your arguments are balanced on a knife edge. I don’t like being in a thread where people defend being exclusionary like it means a lot to them to be so only for someone like you to pretend there is no exclusion when it’s convenient for your argument. It’s almost as bad as people acting like female custodies is no big deal or a great change depending on who they are talking to.
"The Judge: completely friendless, they write posts in reddit complaining about how they're completely unliked, and doesn't realize its because they have no social skills and are incompetent"
That's cute.
I shan't add it to the list, though, because it *doesn't actually relate to hobbies,* you plonker.
Like, if you're going to offer a satirical jab at me, at least make it relevant. That's comedy 101.
Idk, the fact that you enjoy clasifing people like you please based on so basic archetypes? That you gate keep so hard? That you think people is so basic that all their interacting with the hobby can be summarized on les than two paragraphs? Maybe that you feel so needy for approval and superiority that you have to make a whole caste system to put yourself in the top? What about the HUGE similarity that this has with the "alpha male" shit? Or perhaps it's because that you feel SO important and smart to think that you were the one of saying what everyone is, thinks, feels and plans
I'm not creating a hierarchy with this post. I am attempting to define terminology for use by everyone, so that people don't talk at crossed purposes and aren't vulnerable to being tricked by word games.
I enjoy classifying people because I am autistic. Giving people appropriate labels to rationalise their stances and interactions is useful for me to keep track of things, and I thought other people would benefit from my assessments.
You object to me labelling people, but you seem perfectly happy to call me things such as "alpha male", "needy", and "self-important". How do you justify applying labels to me when you condemn me doing so with others?
You actually made a good point, except that it's not the same clasifing a person and clasifing EVERYONE. Another thing is that I didn't called you "alpha male" neither putted you at the same level, sorry if you understood that, I said that this was a similar concept in regarding of the structure.
Now I must add, knowing the context of your autism I must say that I don't find it disgusting any more, since it's a thing that helps you feel more confortable and understanding better, I just find it silly the simplified it is and the problematic it is that you share it in this way
I hear what you're saying. Don't worry, I know you're speaking from a place of good intentions. You just don't want me to put people in boxes, right? You think it's dehumanising.
I still disagree with you, though, sorry. I think that being able to distinguish between "Fans" and "Anti-Fans", as a single example, is very useful. It allows people to properly understand what sorts of people are engaging in a conversation, what their motivations are, and how to react to them.
We're currently engaged in a culture war. The political left - whom most of us here are opposed to - like to play word games and alter definitions in order to win arguments through trickery. By codifying definitions in a single post, and ensuring everyone knows what different terms mean, it makes it harder for dishonest people to use deception and lies to win discussions.
I'm just trying to tell the truth, basically, to help others understand what's happening.
I have a girlfriend of five years.
I'm just coming off my MSc, though, so I could use a job. If you know of anywhere that's hiring a data policy nerd, let me know.
Omg I’m a grognard, I was there at the very beginning, and I play the old stuff.
Hi! I joined in 4th, but I also call myself a Grognard now. Man, the hobby was so good back in the old days...
I quite like killteam in terms of the modern games, but damn the card gamers injecting their stuff into the tabletop is really pain in the arse for me, I hate all the “gotcha” shit, and the constant creep. I like the new models, I dislike the new scale. To be honest it all seems a bit messy now with too many ideas pulling in too many directions. The lore was perfect around 2nd/3rd, trying to move a sandbox universe story forwards seems destined to failure; the story’s should be made by the players within their local playgroups in a sandbox universe:- too much of the mystery is vanishing. Wyf is with primarch coming back? They were “mythical creatures” lost in time. Rant over
I am 100% in agreement with you. The plot should never have advanced, the rules should have remained narrative-driven, and the bolt-on stuff (cards) should have remained exclusive to spin-off games where that level of nuance was more manageable. Out of curiosity, which edition do you currently play most? I personally like 4th, but with all the 3rd Edition Codicies and supplements.
I played 3 games of 9th and was like wtf is this shit, came in at the end. Played 8-9 games of 10th, was ok but when the codexes started dropping the bloat and gotchas started to flow. 2nd 3rd and kill team is my go to. Haven’t played the others. 2nd is a good days games, 3rd is fast as hell 1-2 hours. I think the constant balancing and errata to books and lists is also a pain, didn’t have that shit in the past, who the fuck cares about tournament balance really? Majority of players are small local groups
Yeah, I played a couple of games of 9th, and I wasn't persuaded. I never even bothered with 10th. I took one look at the previews and just said "Fuck it, I'm going back to the older rules.". That's interesting. I haven't actually played 2nd (I wasn't born when it came out, lol), but I hear a lot of good things. People seem to praise the nuance and storytelling, but agree that some of the rules are a bit of a mess. I understand that people were upset when 3rd stripped a lot of stuff out, and I get it, but the 3rd Ed rules are actually extremely tight and flow very nicely. If you flesh it out with a few of the supplements, it's actually a very fun, fluffy game, even if it lacks the bells and whistles of 2nd. I'll have to give 2nd a try some time!
Gorkamorka is a big favourite to entice new people in, it’s stupid brutal and can’t be taken seriously. A loss is just as much fun as a win. It got a bad rep because it nearly killed games workshop(mostly due to suits who didn’t know the market pulling the strings) but is a great pick up game. Something about business men making decisions on products and markets they don’t truly understand; is something like that happening again?
I haven't actually tried Gorkamorka, but it's one of those things I've always wanted to "'ave a go" at. xD I'll check it out if I get the opportunity! Yes, I do think that's currently happening. Or, worse still, activists in the lower orders are making noise to get their views pumped into the hobby. Have you seen the recent community post criticising "reactionary" hobbyists?
No where do I see that?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusGalaxy/comments/1cxemtj/rumor\_engine\_change/](https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusGalaxy/comments/1cxemtj/rumor_engine_change/)
You've summarised my general position quite nicely. The HH books have been an utter disaster for the setting, turning it into some weird fucking anime drama.
Kan we sticky dis? I'ssa yewsful gyde.
I only read the books "pirated" and cant afford the figurines or 3d printer "live in a 3rd world shthole" I guess i would be casual..
Extenuating circumstances are a real thing. If you truly consider 40k to be your main hobby, and you spend a lot of time with it, then you're a real fan.
I mostly read the books and shitpost but yeah its my main fandom rigth now.
So this post really is just you complaining that no one likes you lol
Explain your reasoning. Go on. This should be fun.
100% grognard here. Although I'm now closer to casual since I dislike 10th and the direction so much I can't stand playing it. You forgot one although it might fit under another category: The competitive player who doesn't care at all about the hobby and is only here because it's the most popular competitive wargame. I've spoken to a few people over the years who are like that. No interest in the lore or models just wanted a competitive game with support and lots of potential opponents.
I'd still call you a committed Grognard. Only playing the absolute latest rules isn't a requirement for being a Fan. That's a good addition, though. I'll tack it on later. 😊
Started playing at the very tail end of 2nd, just long enough to learn the basics and have everything change when 3rd launched. I also like seeing things change and the story evolve but still have a soft spot for nostalgia; guess I'd be a veteran?
Guess I'm just casual., read the books and borrow my friends death guard army to fight his Tau army haha. It's alot of fun. His brothers come over and we'll do a weekend.
You sound more like a newbie to me. It depends how long you've been in the hobby. :)
Poser/casual here
I'm a bit of of a mix of Fan, Amateur, and old guard. Played epic, blood bowl, warhammer (before it was called WHF), necromunda back in late 80's through to mid/late 90's as a kid and teen. A fair bit of other geek interests overlapping - D&D, MTG, computer games etc... By the late 90's I was a skint student, didn't have as much time or money, gradually lapsed out of pretty much all my hobbies. Spent better part of 20 years as an alcohol and substance abusers afterwards. Started recovery around 2016, eventually made it stick when I started collecting and painting 40k and AoS models. Have stayed clean and dry ever since! I know there's a few others like me out there, so I'd suggest another hobby archetype; "The returnee". Or perhaps "The treatment plan".
Congrats on getting clean! I'll consider adding types for those who leave and those who rejoin the hobby. However, I think we can definitely call you a Fan. You also fit the category of Veteran, just about, in that you joined a long time ago and are joined up again now. I suppose you're the sort of Veteran who "served in the last war", and has "re-enlisted" several years ago (like, 8 years ago, which is a long time). That still makes you a Veteran, as far as I'm concerned. :)
It's kinda sad you put this much energy into making up guys in your head to get mad at.
These sorts of people all exist. I am just establishing distinctions between sorts of people with respect to fandoms.
I hate this, we shouldn’t be in such a rush to label people, rank them, or insult them. This is the type of thing that can make this forum just as toxic as any of the others. This desire to gate-keep and see yourself above others has been a big problem for a long time and doubling down on it can be counterproductive at best. It’s not hard to talk about things without these types of insider terms. If you need to feel like your part of some in group or cool kid because of how into 40K you are, find a better sense of self, you’re part of the problem and why so many people would rather tolerate other political groups taking over the hobby. They at least pretend to be inclusive.
What makes gatekeeping a "big problem"
It’s always done by arrogant and exclusionary types and it has caused 40K to have bad reputations and a hard time finding new fans for years. Also it’s almost always a coping mechanism for the angry and insecure who don’t want to deal with their shit. Gatekeepers often only want people just like them so that they can pretend their is something special about people just like them.
You correct in 1 part: gatekeepers want people just like them. Yes! Exactly. Gatekeepers want people like them who come into the hobby and enjoy it for what it is without trying to change it. Gatekeeping is important
Being able to label and understand ideas is fundamental in understanding them. When an intolerant ideology seeks to eliminate opposition, it will attempt to erase words which can be used to understand and undermine it. This list is an effort to do the opposite. Gatekeeping is fundamentally good for the hobby. It lets in the Newbies and Casuals and keeps out any troublemakers (Hustlers, Activists, Anti-Fans, and obnoxious Tourists). This is also GW's official policy, except that they specifically choose to gatekeep "extremists", rather than just anyone who is causing problems. If you don't gatekeep that which you care about, it will become like any other public place - trashy, noisy, and without its own identity. If you want to protect something, making it exclusive is mandatory.
The only problem 40K has is people wanting to possess it and have it fit their identity, people who use 40K and tired cliches as excuses to self aggrandize and belittle others. You are one of those people. I don’t want you to not enjoy 40K, I just don’t want you being a dick about it or keeping other people from being able to enjoy it. Nobody who wants to gatekeep is ever all that interesting anyways. You’re part of the problem, I don’t want to get rid of you though, I just think you could behave better. There are people with issues out there and some of them find their ways to 40K, and while that could be a growth opportunity it never is because by they cluster with like minded people with similar issues. Trying to weed then out just fractures the community into echo chambers and it always gets over or misapplied and leads to purity spirals. That’s why I can make the same comments here to you as I would elsewhere to the very types of people you may be hoping to gate keep. Most of our culture is shit now and you’re not the first to try gate keeping. Grow up, it doesn’t work. Even in 40K there’s been issues for years and the gatekeepers have just fed the issues. Just try to be better and encourage others to be, too. Don’t exclude people, just discourage bad behavior.
Actually, I'm *not* using 40k as a mouthpiece for my own politics. On the contrary, I am a hobby purist; I want to exclude *all* politics from the hobby and keep it true to its authentic self. If that means pushing back against particularly invasive ideologies (whether that's Christian Fundamentalism or Wokeness), so be it. As I said before, gatekeeping is an essential part of preserving any hobby. If you let in trashy people, the community becomes trashy. This is obvious, and I have explained in my above definitions how and why people come in and damage the hobby space. The thing about a gate is that it can be either opened or closed. The idea of gatekeeping is that you let in nice, positive people, and exclude horrible, negative people. You describe the process of removing negative people as "weeding", yet you decry the practice. Why? Do you want the garden to be full of weeds? I don't. You say gatekeeping doesn't work. No, I disagree; the problem is that we haven't been gatekeeping *enough*. We have been too tolerant of those with disruptive opinions and personalities, and now the weeds have taken root. The solution now is to go about removing them with more determination, not abandon the garden to the weed menace.
How do you think the hobby became established in the first place? There was no internet or websites, it was word of mouth around LIKE MINDED friends. Was it widespread? Intercontinental? Not really. Was it inclusive? Nope, it was mostly isolated in groups of young men and boys who generally got left behind, or excluded from other activities. Edit If GW gos broke and folds it matters not a jot, there’s 40 years of models and editions of various games that will be eminently more available due to lack of copyrighting and 3d printing and eBay and electronic publications
What's your point? That gatekeeping is only an internet phenomenon, because real-life hobby groups *always* let in randos? No, that just isn't true. Read "Geeks, Mops, and Sociopaths" to understand the life-cycle of a hobby or subculture. It's only a 5-minute read, but it explains how such things arise and are created. In brief, though, subcultures are created by likeminded groups. They start out as a group of friends, then come friends of friends, and so on. When the group is small enough, gatekeeping happens naturally, as anyone disruptive is socially ostracised until they leave. As the group gets bigger, though, and strangers start to join, that is when active gatekeeping becomes necessary. A healthy hobby group will naturally have the more experienced and loyal members gatekeep those who are negative or disruptive, whilst letting in new enthusiasts. This is done either literally (stopping them getting into the building), or by way of top-down social pressure. However, a group which doesn't gatekeep will eventually become swarmed by those who don't really care about the hobby, and just want to use it for any number of extraneous reasons (political soapboxing, picking up girls, etc.). When this happens, the hobby space becomes toxic, either the original fans are exiled from their own space as "killjoys" by the mob, or the community collapses and the original fans are left to pick up the pieces. Either way, yes, gatekeeping *does* happen IRL, and it's a necessary part of keeping a community happy and intact.
My point is that the hobby did just fine and more despite being an outlier and full of outcasts. Outsiders didn’t want to be a part of it so it didn’t need to be gate kept. Everything gets watered down to the lowest common denominator with increased mass appeal. Everything becomes shit once it has mass appeal.
I don’t plan on giving GW money ever again, but then again I don’t necessarily have enough money for them to care anyways. Right now they are retreating upmarket too much, but you can’t blame them if they wanted to grow their market. It’s an IP that’s tied to a company that sells stuff. If you’re ability to enjoy that product relies on you being exclusive, then you would be a liability to any attempts to find new customers. I don’t think GW has to or should be choosing new fans over old, but given how many of its vocal old fans seem to want to keep 40K small, I almost can’t blame them for how they have flipped off old fans while flailing for new ones by pandering. Almost. Point is, being exclusionary doesn’t really encourage GW to not make changes to broaden appeal, and it can do just the opposite. It’s much easier for GW to pander to modern left wing political types than it is to try and build a business around exclusionary fans with attitudes akin to the comic shop guy the Simpson’s used to make fun of, plus there’s probably more money in it, too. As someone who mainly enjoys the lore I have decades worth of stuff that I like, but I want to share that with others if possible, and every 40K community turning into an echo chamber of one sort or another always makes 40K less welcoming and more boring.
The thing is, it was never exclusionary, the player base itself was excluded and derided.
You already said it was never inclusive, and now you are claiming people were never exclusionary. Your arguments are balanced on a knife edge. I don’t like being in a thread where people defend being exclusionary like it means a lot to them to be so only for someone like you to pretend there is no exclusion when it’s convenient for your argument. It’s almost as bad as people acting like female custodies is no big deal or a great change depending on who they are talking to.
What? It wasn’t exclusionary, the community was excluded not the new comers. Reading comprehension dude
"The Judge: completely friendless, they write posts in reddit complaining about how they're completely unliked, and doesn't realize its because they have no social skills and are incompetent"
That's cute. I shan't add it to the list, though, because it *doesn't actually relate to hobbies,* you plonker. Like, if you're going to offer a satirical jab at me, at least make it relevant. That's comedy 101.
Disgusting
Why is this dictionary "disgusting"?
Idk, the fact that you enjoy clasifing people like you please based on so basic archetypes? That you gate keep so hard? That you think people is so basic that all their interacting with the hobby can be summarized on les than two paragraphs? Maybe that you feel so needy for approval and superiority that you have to make a whole caste system to put yourself in the top? What about the HUGE similarity that this has with the "alpha male" shit? Or perhaps it's because that you feel SO important and smart to think that you were the one of saying what everyone is, thinks, feels and plans
I'm not creating a hierarchy with this post. I am attempting to define terminology for use by everyone, so that people don't talk at crossed purposes and aren't vulnerable to being tricked by word games. I enjoy classifying people because I am autistic. Giving people appropriate labels to rationalise their stances and interactions is useful for me to keep track of things, and I thought other people would benefit from my assessments. You object to me labelling people, but you seem perfectly happy to call me things such as "alpha male", "needy", and "self-important". How do you justify applying labels to me when you condemn me doing so with others?
You actually made a good point, except that it's not the same clasifing a person and clasifing EVERYONE. Another thing is that I didn't called you "alpha male" neither putted you at the same level, sorry if you understood that, I said that this was a similar concept in regarding of the structure.
Now I must add, knowing the context of your autism I must say that I don't find it disgusting any more, since it's a thing that helps you feel more confortable and understanding better, I just find it silly the simplified it is and the problematic it is that you share it in this way
I hear what you're saying. Don't worry, I know you're speaking from a place of good intentions. You just don't want me to put people in boxes, right? You think it's dehumanising. I still disagree with you, though, sorry. I think that being able to distinguish between "Fans" and "Anti-Fans", as a single example, is very useful. It allows people to properly understand what sorts of people are engaging in a conversation, what their motivations are, and how to react to them. We're currently engaged in a culture war. The political left - whom most of us here are opposed to - like to play word games and alter definitions in order to win arguments through trickery. By codifying definitions in a single post, and ensuring everyone knows what different terms mean, it makes it harder for dishonest people to use deception and lies to win discussions. I'm just trying to tell the truth, basically, to help others understand what's happening.
Get a job. Kiss a girl.
I have a girlfriend of five years. I'm just coming off my MSc, though, so I could use a job. If you know of anywhere that's hiring a data policy nerd, let me know.