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At this point it's not even about his Oath. He said it himself that we was beyond absolution so he is hollowed out. You can see it post and pre sex scenes with Alicent that he doesn't feel anything, like he is going through the motions because the Queen wills it. He has already broken his oaths, he can't unbreaka them, running off with Rhaenerya would have been a "we both broke our oaths so it's ok" rationale for him. He has so much more to lose than either Alicent or Rhaenerya. You can actively see he hates the position he is in and that comes out with his projection of guilt on Arryk.
The sex for Alicent doesn't even seem to be about the horniness. It's how she is coping with the stress of everything. Plus now that she is a widow she is in control of her body and she is pushing that control onto someone else who isn't an equal, this perpetuating a cycle. Criston is a subordinate both politically and sexually. All 3 scenes we have are obviously with Alicent in control and him serving her physically.
& I think it's also a silent form of retribution towards Rhaenyra for flaunting what she wishes she had during her early years as Queen, which was the ability to get/do what she wants and to get away with it.
Right, she's only saying they shouldn't do it again because she knows they shouldn't, not inasmuch as she doesn't want to again, as we see later. And I agree it's not because she's horny, it's because she's losing her power and control so she's looking to exert it anyway she can.
But he's the one who showed up in her bedroom unannounced. I think they're both getting what they want out of this "relationship", it's just that Criston projects his self-loathing outward while Alicent projectes hers inward.
Yeah, no. Cole straight up murders people in plain sight with no repercussions. Alicent is afraid of him. He is besties with the king. He has more power than her.
I found the shot where she comes into her room and he's sitting on her bed (just before she slaps him) to be quite sinister! Just the way he was sitting and looking at her.
I feel like it’s a pretty common plot point in a lot of movies, and in real life. Lots of people have crossed a line they never meant to cross, whether it be moral or whatever. And crossing that line broke them. Because *not* crossing that line is what made them who they are, so once they crossed it, they don’t feel like the same person anymore, like they can’t to follow the same code anymore because they’re no longer worthy of it. Like they’re damned (or unredeemable). In Japan during the Samurai era, many would just commit seppuku instead of living with the shame.
Totally forgot about that. It’s crazy how he resents Rhaenyra for “making” him cross his line, but doesn’t seem to resent Alicent for taking away his chance to die with honor. In Samurai Japan that would be considered a very cruel thing to do to someone, and you see it played out several times in the tv series *Shogun*. Westeros is most definitely not Japan, but there are some interesting similarities.
That said, I think he does resent Alicent. He’s essentially a glorified mistress who fucked his way up the ladder. He must feel some shame or resentment over how he’s gotten to where he is.
I think I'd agree more with the, "I've already broken my oath, so I'm already beyond redemption," rationale for Criston's actions in S2 *if* the show hadn't gone out of its way in S1 to specifically set up that courtly dynamic between Alicent and Criston. It felt very clear to me that playing those roles for each other fulfilled a really deep emotional/psychological need for both of them. For Criston, Alicent heard what he had done and forgave him, saved him at his lowest moment, and represents a kind of salvation for him where he gets to live out his ideal of loyalty in service to (at least in his mind) a true and good queen. And for Alicent, Criston is the one adult man in her life whom she's ever been able to trust, to rely on to have her back, without ever requiring her to use her body in some way to secure his loyalty and support. They both need this idea of duty as a coping mechanism, and each of them helps reinforce that for the other.
I think both character directions are believable ones after the events of the first half of S1... but they're *opposite* directions, and I don't think the writers have justified the swing from one to the other.
Early S1 Criston -> S2 Criston would completely make sense as someone who has fully turned to cynicism after having broken his oath and having his illusions about the value of honour shattered; who is marinated in his own self-loathing, and acting out because of it.
Early S1 Criston -> Late S1 Criston makes sense as someone who has found a safe space in a person who has allowed him to restore his honour as he sees it, and who is doubling down on that.
Early S1 Criston -> Late S1 Criston -> S2 Criston makes no sense, at least as it currently stands. There's a missing step in there, and the writers just haven't bothered to fill it in.
If they had shown HOW the affair started, then I think it would've come off better.
Because despite them basically saying the affair started in the aftermath of Viserys' death, it makes zero fucking sense to me that they started having sex in the middle of the day, alone, in her rooms while they are in the middle of preparing for war. That, to me, looks like a set up that they were screwing the entire time. Which I wouldn't care about, cuz Fuck Viserys, but they spent the whole time talking shit about Rhaenyra's sex life, no cap.
That's true. But I mean like when they decided to smash. Rhaenerya had waaay less to lose by banging a kingsguard than Ser Crimble did by banging the Princess.
It’s not just about Oaths. It’s about the fact that he loved/loved Rhaenerya. If he stayed true to her, he would have to stand guard and watch her be happy with other men that she actually loved. I am not saying Rhaenerya had no feelings for Criston. I am saying that CC took their intimate meetings as something more than what they were. He was just a means for sexual exploration, like a friends with benefits. Cc wanted Rhaenyra to be his. He fell in love with the idea of who she was to him rather than who she actually was.
Dude **literally** sent a dude on a suicide mission that resulted in the deaths of two brothers and members of the kingsguard.
And he suggested that *prank* because he refuses to acknowledge his own role in Jahaerys’ murder.
Not even fans of the Greens like this dude anymore. His fuck boy energy is just too much to deal with.
He had no role in Jaehaerys' murder, what the fuck are you talking about? Three people had a role in that murder. The two murderers and their benefactor. No one else.
> "we both broke our oaths so it's ok" rationale for him.
This!! He is mad because Rhaenyra didn't feel bad for sexual liberation and only he did. Between Alicent and him, they **both** felt bad/guilt after the act every time. So to him it's only fair and acceptable since they are both suffering.
It's partially about his 'oath' only in a sense that it is where his misery is beholden to. The entire thing it's just him being a narcissist.
I wish the scene of Criston projecting via the dirty cloak had been more nuanced. The point cheapened was by how hard they smacked us in the face with it.
This is something I’ve tried to explain so many times. A lot of people keep saying “oh wow he really hates rhaenrya” “how can he hate rhaenyra for so long” ..I’ve always said, it’s not that he hates rhaenyra so much, in truth, Criston Cole hates himself. He hates himself more than anything, he even tries to kill himself, he’s solely living because alicent gave him a reason to, without that he wouldn’t even be alive.
Huh? Cole clearly hates his life. He wanted to kill himself over breaking his vows with Rhaenyra, who merely used him as a surrogate for Daemon. Alicent straight up uses him as a sex toy and it is obvious he is very unhappy.
What do you think his chastising Arryk over his unclean cloak was about?
This is why Cole is so much creepier than Joffrey or Ramsay or any of the other monsters on the show. There are Coles everywhere. Cole would have a red pill podcast if he was a man living in 2024
Let’s not forget that time he did a hate-crime by murdering Laenor’s paramour AT A ROYAL WEDDING and some how just kept existing…as though consequences for attacking & killing a royal are non-existent so long as he targets a gay man.
Ramsay and Joffrey were both awful for very similar reasons. They loved abusing the power they held over others, often to grotesque and literally torturous extents. **It’s very clear that Crispin also loves abusing the power he has over others, especially the immunity that being a KG member seems to give him as well.**
Crispy Cole has murdered several people, and sent someone to personally kill Rhaenyra because he's not over the rejection. I feel like he and Joffrey are somewhat leveled
Being team green doesn't mean it makes any sense for him to send someone to kill Rhaenyra without consent of the small council. She's still a member of the royal family. He's reckless, and killing someone "by accident" and another "out of rage" doesn't make either okay.
He’s a member of the Small Council as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Also, she may be a member of the Royal family but they are also at war with her - her living is dangerous to the lives of everyone on the side he has chosen.
I agree he definitely didn't send Arryk to assassinate Raenyra because he's not over her rejection. He sent Arryk because he felt guilty that he was sleeping with Alicent when Jaehaerys was murdered, instead of on-duty or placing someone else on-duty, as the head of the Kingsguard.
I don't know why you're cursing at me... but the point is that he sent the twin knight to do that without discussing it with the small council, and told Aegon about his plan AFTER he had already done it.
He also is only doing this because he has a PERSONAL grudge against Rhaenyra for rejecting him.
And doing it asap solely to get out of an investigation as to WHY there were no fucking guards around at all. I don't care if you're in the middle of a war or not, the royal family would have at least one or two guards patrolling the inner halls of their own damn castle.
I totally get you here, but I think what they mean to say, is that there's the creepy but overt Evil Guy...and then there's the Nice Guy. The Nice Guy can sometimes seem creepier because he is subtle, he is overlooked, he isn't an obvious villain cackling over his Evil Deed...and he is EVERYWHERE.
I think the point the poster was making is that he’s creepier *because he’s more realistic,* not that his actions are worse than Joffrey’s or Ramsay’s.
Very little chance of coming across an absolute psychopath like Ramsay Bolton in real life, but there are A LOT of Cristian Cole’s out there.
Ramsey is definitely more creepy...I mean the man LOVED to torture people and play with them ...and feed them to their dogs , forced Theon to rape Sansa while he doesn't even have a penis
> forced Theon to rape Sansa
I’m not sure what you think was going on in that scene (after Sansa is forced to marry Ramsay), but that wasn’t it.
There are the books and then there’s the show. We never see or hear someone say that this happened in either of them.
Yeah you’re thinking of the books where he forces Theon to eat out his bride, which is Jeyne Poole (Sansa’s best friend who got one scene in the first episode) pretending to be Arya.
Yeah but imho they overcooked him in HOTD.
In the books he was still bad, but the series made him cartoonishly evil.
The contrast of it is even worse given how most other characters had their evil moments dialed down significantly from the books.
Exactly, he's not being Alicent's whore, he thinks he's getting back at Rheynera by having sex with her childhood friend when in fact no one cares except him (and well now Aegon when he figures out what Criston was doing)
This is a wild take. Hes been by Alicent’s side for almost two decades by this point in the story. He has a much longer relationship with Alicent than he did with rhaenyra, or even than that which existed between Alicent and rhaenyra. He didn’t kill himself because of her intervention, he threw his life at her feet and she spared him from dying. Cole is also the single best male relationship Alicent has. He observes her wishes, obeys her, champions her causes, hates her enemies, parrots her convictions. It’s vastly more plausible that they actually just like one another, even if they are shitty hypocrites. The two of them having a relationship on the basis of their respective short lived relationships with rhaenyra twenty years ago is rather ludicrous
There’s been so little characterization of Cole it’s hard to tell what his and alicent motivations are we see so few conversations or the build up to this relationship. They just kind of started doing it sometime idk. It feels very later season got where stuff happens and it doesn’t feel like there was a lot of good buildup or any explanation or scene explaining what how or why. I would guess he and alicent are just jaded and don’t care anymore that seems to be what fans are running with to justify it, but the show could do more to give context to what they’re up to.
Of course she would ask for moon tea. Royals in this world had affairs all the time and the servants would be expected to keep their mouths shut. Look at Cersei.
Dowager Queen Alyssa Velaryon remarried, and it seems that Cersei as Dowager Queen was going to be forced to by her father so it probably just depends on the situation
A lot of the show deals with The Sunk Cost Fallacy. Everyone feels like they’ve already gone too far to turn back. Criston and Allicent actually seem like neither is really enjoying the sex on an emotional level. It just so happens that the physical enjoyment makes them forget about their stressful lives, and just how far they’ve gone on their dark paths. It’s 100% hypocritical, and I suspect he knows this; hence his “I am beyond absolution” line. But he can’t stop now, or else he is nothing but the oaths he’s broken. If he stays the course, he could still be remembered for more.
All that said, Fuck Crispy Cole! Fabian has done a wonderful job making him so fun to hate.
I don’t know why people keep presenting this as the same situation.
Criston’s issue is that he wanted Rhaenyra for himself which wasn’t going to happen as she was going to he married off and at least in theory have that person’s children.
Alicent is a widow who isn’t going to be married off again. Just because they can’t be married doesn’t mean he’s the side piece or the whore.
On top of that he’s practically the surrogate father to her children. He trained the green boys. Aegon trusts him enough to make him hand of the king. Aemond is also seen having a close relationship to him.
Alicent offers him as close to what he wants as he’s going to get.
Yeah, but Alicent's kids are still not his children. 😂😂😂 He's at the end of the day, taking care of another man's children. And he doesn't really have all of Alicent. Alicent let Larys jerk off to her feet. But I suppose he has no way of knowing that, does he?
I think the only reason he feels mad is because he regrets ever sleeping with Rhaenyra, coz he fell for her and she didn't. He felt used. And was ready to die after he lashed out and committed crimes. So, he probably thought he owed his life to Alicent when she saved him from doing the unthinkable. Perhaps he felt like a duty towards her because of that. But no doubt he's grown cynical and would never ask of Alicent what he asked of Rhaenyra. And looking at Alicent, he probably thinks it's unfair for her to toil away for an old ailing husband who can't even cherish her like she deserves. So they bond over their frustrations and take their stress out by being sexually intimate. But I do think they still have that barrier between them that neither of them is willing to cross. To actually fall in love with one another. I don't think he's happy doing it.
Criston knows he's no better. He's still doing with Alicent what Rhaenyra asked of him all those years ago.
If he was truly happy with Alicent, he would just continue what he's doing with her without the need to spite Rhaenyra.
Yes but he does that to spite Rhaenyra. He was so hurt because he really had feelings for her and broke his oath for her (his decisions but still) and she (understandably) wasn't willing to give up her life for him which he had done.
With Alicent he just fucks around without feelings (at least for now) and they come together in their shared hatred for and disappointment in Rhaenyra.
I watched it with my mum and I said something like why is he still so obsessed with her (Rhaenyra) and she said, "you cannot hate someone this much without loving them first."
Tbh, I think it's bad writing that feels like it was for shock value. Illicit sex wasn't necessary for Criston and Alicent to feel guilty about Blood & Cheese if the show had followed the superior book version. The repressed courtly love dynamic would've been a so much more interesting and appropriate to the characterizations we saw in season 1. The only way I can make sense of this development is to think show!Criston is motivated solely by personal loyalty now.
That's what I don't get. He wasn't even sleeping with Alicent in the books, as far as I am aware off. I'm pretty sure the creators didn't really have any ideas on what to do with Criston before he became the hand of the king, so they just threw him in bed with Alicent.
This is why not everyone is cut out to be a writer I guess, and this isn't a criticism of show.
There is nothing odd about Criston's behaviour. His hatred for Rhaenyra stems from her, in his eyes, being the person who made him cross the line.
Saying that he is fine with it isn't accurate. He views himself as damaged goods.
I agree with you but you don't need to be a writer to recognize good or bad writing. That's just lazy.
That aside, do people understand that it's been 20+ years since the incident with Rhaenyra? Every time I see posts like OP's I legit roll my eyes. "Ahaaaa, you are doing the thing you said you would do .. 20 years ago" is not the gotcha so many seem to believe it is. Life happens, time passes, people change.
20 y/o Cole felt demeaned by being the Princess's whore. Maybe 40 y/o Cole sees things differently. I don't see the hypocrisy is having a different perspective after 20 fucking years.
The hypocrisy comes in when he continues to hate Rhaenyra. Not because he is doing what he is doing.
Did I say you need to be a writer to recognise good or bad writing?
No, that isn't what I said. What I pointed out is that some people clearly don't have a good grasp of human behaviour. For all of their criticism, if they were to write a story, the characters would be wooden and one dimensional.
>Did I say you need to be a writer to recognise good or bad writing?
That's exactly what your first paragraph implied. It's fine if that's not what you meant but it's a 100% reasonable reading of it in context.
That isn't what first sentence implied. If it is not what I meant, then it cannot be what I implied.
I also don't think it is a reasonable reading within context. On the surface, it is acknowledgement that not everyone has a firm grasp on how people behave, something that is required to make authentic characters.
In the book, Cole doesn't have an affair with Alicent. Writers missed something there IMO. In my head cannon, Cole could have refused Alicent's advance on the night of blood & cheese and instead stood guard for Aegon in the throne room, maybe even talking to Aegon to influence him. In the book, he is called The Kingmaker and Aegon listens to him. Instead they turned him into a fboy completely destroying his dutiful relationship with Alicent built in S1 for the sake of short term viewer emotions.
Y’all forget many years have passed and it’s not even the same situation. Alicent isn’t asking him to be ok with her fucking/marrying somebody else. I’m no Crispy fan but this dead horse has been beat enough already.
With Rhaenyra he was an honorable man capable of love because he loved himself. He was in love with her and felt hurt and rejected by her offer. With Alicent he hates himself and probably her as well, and their relationship is a reflection of those feelings. Generally our romantic & sexual relationships work that way, so this checks out.
I mean these things happen in relationships & the Real World *all the time...* ... People get with people, then don't get back together, or just stop seeing each other, or one of them 'breaks it off' / puts it on hold etc. Someone gets hurt, someone gets jealous, someone gets angry, etc. Both sides move on, some never do, some do later than others etc.
And Alicent has done a helluva lot for Criston Cole ... Rhaenyra changed his life by making him a Knight of the Kingsguard ... Alicent *saved* his life, multiple times, and rewarded him for his loyalty and devotion by making him one of the most powerful men in the realm.
And calling him her *whore* isn't fair IMHO ... she's now unmarried / widowed / single, and she's into him ... if it wasn't for his "vows" , who's to say she wouldn't have him openly as her "boyfriend" etc. or even marry ? She might even be able to pay the High Septon to give him Special Dispensation like Henry VIII lol. (Not saying that's happening just joking here...)
YES THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. Some ppl think "white cloak" Cole did a 180 turn sleeping with Alicent. But they don't realize him being hypocritical out of seething hatred towards Rhaenyra is the whole point of his arc. Ever since his suicide attempt his every move is driven by spite towards Rhaenyra whom he felt had agrieved him. This is the "every woman is the image of the mother" hypocritical Cole. Him sleeping with Alicent is a continuation of that one-track mind. He thinks they're united in shared hatred of Rhaenyra, while Alicent is vicariously living out her love for Rhaenyra via Cole. The book never gives a real explanation as to why Criston hated Rhaenyra so much. There was an implication of misogyny as Cole said "her & daemon would turn KL into a brothel". The show expanded on that theme.
It's easy to write a generic edgy chad antihero/villain. This universe has so many of them. The show could've taken the easy way out by portraying Cole as another personality-less badass. Writing a pure repulsive dickhead just by the virtue of pure dickheadery is much harder. Tying it into the theme of medieval patriarchy & the complex dynamic of the two female protagonists is even more hard. They managed to pull that off & turned him into the most unlikable character in Thrones verse in the eyes of the general public. Sure, in another world I would've loved to see the badass Cole who's beating up Harwin and slitting Beesbury's throat. But I'm gonna lie if I say I'm not enjoying this dickhead version & waiting for him to get his comeuppance.
Rhaenyra sullied his honor and he's already ruined. Might as well keep sinning at this point. At least that's what I think his internal logic is.
I also think his rejection of Rhaenyra was in part because she was so flippant about it and unconflicted, laughing it off in his face while the guilt ate away at him. Alicent is at least ideologically aligned with him and shares his shame, which just continues to bond them.
It was never about being anyone's whore. Cole lashed out at Rhaenyra because he was afraid of losing the position he'd worked so hard for, dishonouring himself and likely his whole family by association, and possibly losing his life.
It's unclear for how long him and Alicent have been at it, but it's likely that he's more okay with her since:
1. They share a deeper connection than he did with Rhaenyra, and he trusts her not to out him.
2. She's in a position of greater power than Rhaenyra was, and he believes Alicent would protect him.
3. He doesn't care at this point. He's broken his vows, is ashamed of himself and thinks there's no saving him anyway. So he's just going through the motions, because his queen wants it and she looks like Olivia Cooke.
Any or all.
The dude was going to kill himself because of the personal moral code. The sociopath you're implying will never do that.
The writers decided to make him a punching bag and a fucking hypocrite rather than keep him the cold, cunning, ruthlessly vengeful character he was in the book.
It was an artistic choice, not a natural characterization.
Edit: I know I will be heavily downvoted for daring to touch this topic on the other side of the echo chamber.
The narrative that he was always this asshole he is rn is false. He was a genuine friend of Rhaenyra the first few episodes but feelings got so complicated by the end he was going to kill himself because of the shame.
The asshole we see rn is NOT the natural path that Criston was set on the beginning. There are a dozen different and equally likely paths they could've gone with him after the timeskip.
They **chose** to make him realistic scary evil
Criston still feels incredibly guilty about breaking those oaths, and about continuing to do it, and he's diverting that guilt into anger and lashing out at the people around him.
Like the entire scene with Arryk is basically that. He calls out Arryk about his cloak being dirty, that its a symbol of their duty and vows, a duty he knows he's breaking, vows he knows he's breaking, and so he projects that onto Arryk.
Criston's development is a very realistic path for Criston, one he was driven down by the society around him that creates such ridiculous standards for honor that almost no one follows and yet heavily punishes those who aren't able to hide it.
I do not argue that the characterization of Cole we see right now doesn't make sense. But he could've also been vengeful and petty without having to be a hypocrite.
Another equally likely scenario could've been if he chose to stay neutral and had a heart in conflict with itself moment at the outset of the war.
The narrative that he was always this person we see in the last two episodes is false imo. I believe he was a genuine friend and all these current tendencies developed after the ash had settled.
I think he always had that violence bubbling up within him, especially after Rhaenyra rejected him. He kills Joffrey before the time skip happens, and after the time skip you see he developed a hatred for Rhaenyra, and has attached himself to Alicent, I think at least partially because at some point he saw working for Alicent as a way to hold on to the remnants of his honor. I doubt that he ever really would have been neutral, since he only doesn't kill himself due to Alicent's intervention, at which point he likely starts working for her.
I do think it was more Alicent taking hold of him when he was psychologically weakest than him clinging to her.
The whole Joffrey thing was him catching Cole on a really, really bad day. Even Ned got seconds close to cutting the Master of Coin's throat on an insult to his wife.
I've been suicidal. I promise you, suicidal ideation is absolutely about control. You're right that he's more complicated, but wrong about what goes through your mind and soul when you're standing with a blade to your heart. You want nothing more than to seize control of the universe and force it to do what you **need** it to, and yet the only thing you feel you have control of is your life's existence.
Miquel Sapochnik called him a thug in an interview. Cole was about to kill himself because he murdered noble in a fit of rage and was presumably going to be executed anyway.
He turned into a rabid dog and nothing happened to him . That made no sense to me at all . I highly doubt that wedding would have taken place that night without one person saying nope not happening until the dog is in the dungeon.
>He turned into a rabid dog and nothing happened to him .
No one knows what happened in the aftermath. That doesn't mean nothing happened. A 10 year gap began mere hours after the assault. It is obvious that Alicent - who is the Queen, let's not forget - interceded on his behalf somehow with Vyserys. The very end of the episode was her taking him under his protection. We just don't know the details of how that exactly unfolded.
I don't know why people keep saying nothing happened.
He was never in control of rhaenyra in the first instance. Nor did it even seem that way. He became a kingsguard because rhaenyra chose him, he works for an institution rhaenyra is set to inherit, and is obligated to die for it if necessary, his life functionally belongs to her. They have sex, not because he chose this, but because rhaenyra did. I’m not sure how one can look at their dynamic, and their social context and conclude Cole has any power of rhaenyra, or ever even presumed to
People are allowed to change their opinions in the span of 20 years. The amount of hate criston gets right now is ridiculous. There is a massmurderer, a rapist, a groomer, a child murder in the show, non of them get as much hate as Criston. And there are much better reasons to not like Criston instead of the fact that he wasn’t ok to be in a secret relationship with one woman 20 years ago but is in one with another woman now
I'm not a Criston hater but it's nothing new. When addressing fictional people annoying the audience is almost always viewed as worse as anything they do to other fictional people.
Criston's biggest issue with Rhaenyra is that she would not run away with him. It's less about what they did together and more about essentially not getting his way.
The oath-breaking was a problem for Criston but his main issue was as you said - being Rhaenyra’s whore. Criston was uncomfortable with the breaking his oath stuff but didn’t actually say anything until Rhaenyra was going to marry Laenor and he didn’t want to be some side dude while she married somebody else and assumably had kids with him. Criston isn’t Alicent’s side dude, he’s her dude. There is the oathbreaker guilt, hence them saying we shouldn’t do this again and then they do it again, but there isn’t the aversion to being a side dude.
He’s the biggest hypocrite on the show and it’s a huge reason why he’s so goddamn unlikable lol, guy is a master at projecting too, the scene with Arryk last episode was so fuckin infuriating
I thought about that too and I think the difference is that alicent is actually single, R would have been publicly married… but that’s still such a weird distinction! Lol
I haven’t read the books but this adaptation of this character is really poorly developed. He’s functioned to cause rifts and problems without being congruent or complex at all. He is my biggest criticism of hotd
This is why I hate this happening so fast. You could make this make sense but not so rapidly. I think Alicole would have been best as an emotional affair, where in they act like spouses and have genuine deep feelings for each other but refuse to cross the line out of fear of their oaths.
I think part of his mental breakdown about Rhaenyra was that she was about to marry Laenor
Without knowing Laenor’s situation and preferences, I think Cole freaked out because he felt like a sidepiece to a married woman
Maybe he justifies his sex w Alicent on the fact that Viserys is dead and Alicent didn’t remarry. So in his eyes, she’s single and dtf
The writers don't really care about character consistency. I would think having relatable characters and drama would be important but Condal is more interested in just figuring out ways to write fan fiction about why the Greens are the worst thing ever.
As a scenario, there are contradictions in the behaviour and characteristics of the characters, no matter what anyone says, this is not a character problem, but a scenario problem. Again, someone thought it was a brilliant idea for two characters to be lovers and ignored the contradictions and absurdities.
(this account still can't get over the scene of the dragon coming out by headbutting the stone).
He seemed to have strong feelings toward Rhaenyra. Alicent and Criston hardly acknowledge each other after. Not just because they don’t want people to be suspicious, but because they don’t seem to care about each other on a personal level
Do you think maybe he regrets not taking Rhaenyra’s offer? And that regret turns to resentment and hatred. Would also explain why he went so hard on the strong boys, the kids that (if he had accepted), could have been his in that alternate situation.
But he kinda looks like he is in pain the entire time 😂😂😂
He looks so unhappy and terrible. Maybe he’s doing it for power, probably will ditch Alicent when time comes.
Yes, because that's how he has been treated. In terms of his sexual relationships, he is a victim. Last time he spoke up about it, Rhaenyra broke his heart and laid it out that all he is good for is sex on the side. Why would he speak up again? Once bitten, twice shy. Cole was warped by how Rhaenyra treated him, he was in the process of killing himself when Alicent stopped him, and now he doesn't even know or care about his worth because these highborn people will keep using him for their own benefit anyway, like Aegon naming him Hand to get back at Otto. In turn, he takes it out on the memory of Rhaenyra and his own subordinates, like Arryk.
People hate him because he says bad things about the protagonist, but look what she did to him. She forced him to jeopardise everything, to break his vows all because her uncle didn't sleep with her and she wanted someone to finish the job. It's actually gross when people hate on him for harbouring deep-seated hatred towards someone that used him like that. Now, he's just a beaten dog who has learned to accept being used, which is why he isn't internally fine with Alicent doing what she does, but he has come to accept it, just like any victim of abuse.
If you need further convincing, gender swap the entire cast of characters, then you'll be saying "oh god, why do these powerful men keep taking advantage of this woman who isn't even in a position to decline?"
>His whole problem was he wouldn’t be Rhaenyra’s whore.
In what...e4 was it?
>But season 2 comes around and now he’s fine with being a side piece
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Criston's changed a fair bit in that time...
Actors and show runners have said their scene was consentual.
And it still doesnt answer the question, she viewed him as meat? Then what does Alicent view him as meat and a punching bag she can slap around whenever she's angry? And for some reason hes ok with that?
That never made any sense. He rejected her and he hated her THAT much over it? Him being bitter over being rejected is a WAY better explanation. Also, that was just one of several possible scenarios put forth in the book.
And one of those scenarios was that that he claimed he had rejected Rhaenyra when she’d professed her love and begged him, but that it was really the other way around and she’d rejected him.
It was his first time he wanted it to be special, it’s been 15 years since , he is lord commander, now even hand of king. He has lot more to lose & has broken his oath anyways.
His relationship with Rhaenerya is classic example of "I am mad at you I don’t remember why but I am mad at you"
Criston cole character it's just.. mess l don't understand him and his motivation at all
Like him saying there's no absolution for what he did than he go and fuck alicent again
I think it also has to do with sharing her with Laenor that put him off. But yeah it's so hypocritical. But I think he knows that and realizes that Alicent is the key to get back at her. He has written his life off for revenge. He doesn't want absolution. He wants Rhaenyra to hurt for playing with his feelings. He thought he would get a fairy tail ending, running off with a princess. And he hated what he wanted, what he thought meant true love for him for the first time, wasn't the same for her, since she was only exploring herself, you see. That phase of his life that he had already gotten past was only starting for her.. And he hadn't realized it was like that for Rhaenyra until much later. He didn't like how she behaved around his uncle.
He feels cheated but deep down even tho it's not anybody's fault because the two of them both didn't have any conversation about what kind of relationship they want from each other prior to having reckless sexual intimacy. He is mad at Rhaenyra for not falling for him like he imagined.
I wrote about it in another post.
Cole basically thinks he is sullied and believes that he is not the man he was before. He broke psychologically after trusting and toyed by Rhaenyra. He said he is "beyond absolution", which tells enough about where he is standing at.
He is now playing the game that was forced on him, and convinced he will never be the honourable man that picked up the White Cloak years ago. Which means he will do anything to soothe the remorse for not being able to become the man he fashioned himself to be, and take advantage of his position to make the best of circumstances, which includes; fucking the Queen Mother.
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At this point it's not even about his Oath. He said it himself that we was beyond absolution so he is hollowed out. You can see it post and pre sex scenes with Alicent that he doesn't feel anything, like he is going through the motions because the Queen wills it. He has already broken his oaths, he can't unbreaka them, running off with Rhaenerya would have been a "we both broke our oaths so it's ok" rationale for him. He has so much more to lose than either Alicent or Rhaenerya. You can actively see he hates the position he is in and that comes out with his projection of guilt on Arryk.
Yeah I think this is right. I feel like he thinks the damage is done so why not get his rocks off?
Plus the power dynamics of the ones whose rocks he is getting off is heavily skewed in their favor. Like is he really going to tell Alicent no?
He can tell her no imo. Alicent is not so dumb as to alienate the ruthlessly effective soldier just because of horniness.
The sex for Alicent doesn't even seem to be about the horniness. It's how she is coping with the stress of everything. Plus now that she is a widow she is in control of her body and she is pushing that control onto someone else who isn't an equal, this perpetuating a cycle. Criston is a subordinate both politically and sexually. All 3 scenes we have are obviously with Alicent in control and him serving her physically.
OK, but where do I sign up to take his place?
You gotta fight Ser Crispy Creme to the death.
I'm probably going to die, but I'll accept the challenge. Being a beautiful, powerful Queen's gigolo is the dream.
I’ll be right behind you. You’ll be sure to wound him before he crushes your skull and moves on to me, right?
What if I win? Are we going to fight?
& I think it's also a silent form of retribution towards Rhaenyra for flaunting what she wishes she had during her early years as Queen, which was the ability to get/do what she wants and to get away with it.
Alicent herself was saying something like "we shouldn't do this, this is the last time" it's not like she was threatening Cole that sleep with her.
But if she’s in control and says that, and then later wants to get together again, he still can’t easily say no.
Right, she's only saying they shouldn't do it again because she knows they shouldn't, not inasmuch as she doesn't want to again, as we see later. And I agree it's not because she's horny, it's because she's losing her power and control so she's looking to exert it anyway she can.
Alicent using the Implicaton. Dennis approves
But he's the one who showed up in her bedroom unannounced. I think they're both getting what they want out of this "relationship", it's just that Criston projects his self-loathing outward while Alicent projectes hers inward.
Yeah, no. Cole straight up murders people in plain sight with no repercussions. Alicent is afraid of him. He is besties with the king. He has more power than her.
I found the shot where she comes into her room and he's sitting on her bed (just before she slaps him) to be quite sinister! Just the way he was sitting and looking at her.
If she says to her dragon riding sons ser criston is being inappropriate what is his recourse?
Um, they are all chums. The king made Cole the hand. Let’s focus on what does happen and not the make believe what if.
More like She can’t say no to him. She is a people pleaser…
I feel like it’s a pretty common plot point in a lot of movies, and in real life. Lots of people have crossed a line they never meant to cross, whether it be moral or whatever. And crossing that line broke them. Because *not* crossing that line is what made them who they are, so once they crossed it, they don’t feel like the same person anymore, like they can’t to follow the same code anymore because they’re no longer worthy of it. Like they’re damned (or unredeemable). In Japan during the Samurai era, many would just commit seppuku instead of living with the shame.
Criston did try to commit Seppuku but it was Alicent that stopped him. In many ways she may be all he has left.
Totally forgot about that. It’s crazy how he resents Rhaenyra for “making” him cross his line, but doesn’t seem to resent Alicent for taking away his chance to die with honor. In Samurai Japan that would be considered a very cruel thing to do to someone, and you see it played out several times in the tv series *Shogun*. Westeros is most definitely not Japan, but there are some interesting similarities. That said, I think he does resent Alicent. He’s essentially a glorified mistress who fucked his way up the ladder. He must feel some shame or resentment over how he’s gotten to where he is.
Well said.
I think I'd agree more with the, "I've already broken my oath, so I'm already beyond redemption," rationale for Criston's actions in S2 *if* the show hadn't gone out of its way in S1 to specifically set up that courtly dynamic between Alicent and Criston. It felt very clear to me that playing those roles for each other fulfilled a really deep emotional/psychological need for both of them. For Criston, Alicent heard what he had done and forgave him, saved him at his lowest moment, and represents a kind of salvation for him where he gets to live out his ideal of loyalty in service to (at least in his mind) a true and good queen. And for Alicent, Criston is the one adult man in her life whom she's ever been able to trust, to rely on to have her back, without ever requiring her to use her body in some way to secure his loyalty and support. They both need this idea of duty as a coping mechanism, and each of them helps reinforce that for the other. I think both character directions are believable ones after the events of the first half of S1... but they're *opposite* directions, and I don't think the writers have justified the swing from one to the other. Early S1 Criston -> S2 Criston would completely make sense as someone who has fully turned to cynicism after having broken his oath and having his illusions about the value of honour shattered; who is marinated in his own self-loathing, and acting out because of it. Early S1 Criston -> Late S1 Criston makes sense as someone who has found a safe space in a person who has allowed him to restore his honour as he sees it, and who is doubling down on that. Early S1 Criston -> Late S1 Criston -> S2 Criston makes no sense, at least as it currently stands. There's a missing step in there, and the writers just haven't bothered to fill it in.
Good comment. I agree entirely, their love seemed repressed in S1, so if they wanted to change that, they should’ve shown us how it went.
If they had shown HOW the affair started, then I think it would've come off better. Because despite them basically saying the affair started in the aftermath of Viserys' death, it makes zero fucking sense to me that they started having sex in the middle of the day, alone, in her rooms while they are in the middle of preparing for war. That, to me, looks like a set up that they were screwing the entire time. Which I wouldn't care about, cuz Fuck Viserys, but they spent the whole time talking shit about Rhaenyra's sex life, no cap.
I think Rhaenyra had more to lose at the time if she decided to run away with him.
That's true. But I mean like when they decided to smash. Rhaenerya had waaay less to lose by banging a kingsguard than Ser Crimble did by banging the Princess.
It’s not just about Oaths. It’s about the fact that he loved/loved Rhaenerya. If he stayed true to her, he would have to stand guard and watch her be happy with other men that she actually loved. I am not saying Rhaenerya had no feelings for Criston. I am saying that CC took their intimate meetings as something more than what they were. He was just a means for sexual exploration, like a friends with benefits. Cc wanted Rhaenyra to be his. He fell in love with the idea of who she was to him rather than who she actually was.
Dude **literally** sent a dude on a suicide mission that resulted in the deaths of two brothers and members of the kingsguard. And he suggested that *prank* because he refuses to acknowledge his own role in Jahaerys’ murder. Not even fans of the Greens like this dude anymore. His fuck boy energy is just too much to deal with.
He had no role in Jaehaerys' murder, what the fuck are you talking about? Three people had a role in that murder. The two murderers and their benefactor. No one else.
Wut? He was rawdogging the queen and no one was protecting the kids and Helaena
> "we both broke our oaths so it's ok" rationale for him. This!! He is mad because Rhaenyra didn't feel bad for sexual liberation and only he did. Between Alicent and him, they **both** felt bad/guilt after the act every time. So to him it's only fair and acceptable since they are both suffering. It's partially about his 'oath' only in a sense that it is where his misery is beholden to. The entire thing it's just him being a narcissist.
I wish the scene of Criston projecting via the dirty cloak had been more nuanced. The point cheapened was by how hard they smacked us in the face with it.
This is something I’ve tried to explain so many times. A lot of people keep saying “oh wow he really hates rhaenrya” “how can he hate rhaenyra for so long” ..I’ve always said, it’s not that he hates rhaenyra so much, in truth, Criston Cole hates himself. He hates himself more than anything, he even tries to kill himself, he’s solely living because alicent gave him a reason to, without that he wouldn’t even be alive.
Huh? Cole clearly hates his life. He wanted to kill himself over breaking his vows with Rhaenyra, who merely used him as a surrogate for Daemon. Alicent straight up uses him as a sex toy and it is obvious he is very unhappy. What do you think his chastising Arryk over his unclean cloak was about?
You never met a man who is so bitter that you rejected him that he self-destructs and blames you forever
This is why Cole is so much creepier than Joffrey or Ramsay or any of the other monsters on the show. There are Coles everywhere. Cole would have a red pill podcast if he was a man living in 2024
Let's not get too ahead of ourselves Ramsay is still much much much worse than Cole.
Okay, he's not creepier than the rapist. Calm down now. 
Let’s not forget that time he did a hate-crime by murdering Laenor’s paramour AT A ROYAL WEDDING and some how just kept existing…as though consequences for attacking & killing a royal are non-existent so long as he targets a gay man. Ramsay and Joffrey were both awful for very similar reasons. They loved abusing the power they held over others, often to grotesque and literally torturous extents. **It’s very clear that Crispin also loves abusing the power he has over others, especially the immunity that being a KG member seems to give him as well.**
He didn't kill him for being gay, how is that a hate crime lmao?
He's a homophobe in the book so is alicent.
Crispy Cole has murdered several people, and sent someone to personally kill Rhaenyra because he's not over the rejection. I feel like he and Joffrey are somewhat leveled
[удалено]
Being team green doesn't mean it makes any sense for him to send someone to kill Rhaenyra without consent of the small council. She's still a member of the royal family. He's reckless, and killing someone "by accident" and another "out of rage" doesn't make either okay.
He’s a member of the Small Council as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Also, she may be a member of the Royal family but they are also at war with her - her living is dangerous to the lives of everyone on the side he has chosen.
I agree he definitely didn't send Arryk to assassinate Raenyra because he's not over her rejection. He sent Arryk because he felt guilty that he was sleeping with Alicent when Jaehaerys was murdered, instead of on-duty or placing someone else on-duty, as the head of the Kingsguard.
You're gonna ignore the fact he sent that assassination because they fucking killed a baby. But all other points are valid.
I don't know why you're cursing at me... but the point is that he sent the twin knight to do that without discussing it with the small council, and told Aegon about his plan AFTER he had already done it. He also is only doing this because he has a PERSONAL grudge against Rhaenyra for rejecting him.
And doing it asap solely to get out of an investigation as to WHY there were no fucking guards around at all. I don't care if you're in the middle of a war or not, the royal family would have at least one or two guards patrolling the inner halls of their own damn castle.
I totally get you here, but I think what they mean to say, is that there's the creepy but overt Evil Guy...and then there's the Nice Guy. The Nice Guy can sometimes seem creepier because he is subtle, he is overlooked, he isn't an obvious villain cackling over his Evil Deed...and he is EVERYWHERE.
I think the point the poster was making is that he’s creepier *because he’s more realistic,* not that his actions are worse than Joffrey’s or Ramsay’s. Very little chance of coming across an absolute psychopath like Ramsay Bolton in real life, but there are A LOT of Cristian Cole’s out there.
Ramsey is definitely more creepy...I mean the man LOVED to torture people and play with them ...and feed them to their dogs , forced Theon to rape Sansa while he doesn't even have a penis
> forced Theon to rape Sansa I’m not sure what you think was going on in that scene (after Sansa is forced to marry Ramsay), but that wasn’t it. There are the books and then there’s the show. We never see or hear someone say that this happened in either of them.
Rewatch the scenes with Sansa , Theon and Ramsay. He literally was trying to force Theon to rape her .
He made Theon watch as he raped her. Theon was on the other side of the room.
Oh right! He forces Theon to watch as Ramsay Rapes her. My bad , it's been a long time.
Yeah you’re thinking of the books where he forces Theon to eat out his bride, which is Jeyne Poole (Sansa’s best friend who got one scene in the first episode) pretending to be Arya.
Nah man
Yeah but imho they overcooked him in HOTD. In the books he was still bad, but the series made him cartoonishly evil. The contrast of it is even worse given how most other characters had their evil moments dialed down significantly from the books.
Of _Ramsey?_ Cole is a dick and a creep and a murderer, but Ramsey was on another level.
Woman’s right , incels , inflation, and Kings Landing… The show has done a good job of adding in a very modern themes
Exactly, he's not being Alicent's whore, he thinks he's getting back at Rheynera by having sex with her childhood friend when in fact no one cares except him (and well now Aegon when he figures out what Criston was doing)
This is a wild take. Hes been by Alicent’s side for almost two decades by this point in the story. He has a much longer relationship with Alicent than he did with rhaenyra, or even than that which existed between Alicent and rhaenyra. He didn’t kill himself because of her intervention, he threw his life at her feet and she spared him from dying. Cole is also the single best male relationship Alicent has. He observes her wishes, obeys her, champions her causes, hates her enemies, parrots her convictions. It’s vastly more plausible that they actually just like one another, even if they are shitty hypocrites. The two of them having a relationship on the basis of their respective short lived relationships with rhaenyra twenty years ago is rather ludicrous
I don’t think Aegon will care too much. He needs an iron fist to hit Rheanyra. He at the moment wants revenge for his son.
There’s so many men like that
There’s been so little characterization of Cole it’s hard to tell what his and alicent motivations are we see so few conversations or the build up to this relationship. They just kind of started doing it sometime idk. It feels very later season got where stuff happens and it doesn’t feel like there was a lot of good buildup or any explanation or scene explaining what how or why. I would guess he and alicent are just jaded and don’t care anymore that seems to be what fans are running with to justify it, but the show could do more to give context to what they’re up to.
Alicent: We cannot fuuk again, Criston. Criston: You want the good boy, but u need da bad deek. Alicent: 😲
I curious how Alicent prevents getting pregnant. A widow queen would not dare ask for moon tea.
Of course she would ask for moon tea. Royals in this world had affairs all the time and the servants would be expected to keep their mouths shut. Look at Cersei.
She's in the same position Cersei was when she was sleeping with Lancel. Look where that got her.
She might use the excuse it's for Aegon's various partners every time. No one has to see her drink it, the Grand Maester just has to make it.
Very good point
i wondered this too, and now curious if dowager queens get remarried or are expected to?
Dowager Queen Alyssa Velaryon remarried, and it seems that Cersei as Dowager Queen was going to be forced to by her father so it probably just depends on the situation
Crispy Cole sucks. It is known.
It is known.
I’m starting to think Ser Criston Cole is a hypocrite…
The hypocrisy is the worst part
It’s funny how much she still lives rent free in his head. Like every chance he gets he refers to her as some slur.
A lot of the show deals with The Sunk Cost Fallacy. Everyone feels like they’ve already gone too far to turn back. Criston and Allicent actually seem like neither is really enjoying the sex on an emotional level. It just so happens that the physical enjoyment makes them forget about their stressful lives, and just how far they’ve gone on their dark paths. It’s 100% hypocritical, and I suspect he knows this; hence his “I am beyond absolution” line. But he can’t stop now, or else he is nothing but the oaths he’s broken. If he stays the course, he could still be remembered for more. All that said, Fuck Crispy Cole! Fabian has done a wonderful job making him so fun to hate.
I don’t know why people keep presenting this as the same situation. Criston’s issue is that he wanted Rhaenyra for himself which wasn’t going to happen as she was going to he married off and at least in theory have that person’s children. Alicent is a widow who isn’t going to be married off again. Just because they can’t be married doesn’t mean he’s the side piece or the whore. On top of that he’s practically the surrogate father to her children. He trained the green boys. Aegon trusts him enough to make him hand of the king. Aemond is also seen having a close relationship to him. Alicent offers him as close to what he wants as he’s going to get.
Yeah, but Alicent's kids are still not his children. 😂😂😂 He's at the end of the day, taking care of another man's children. And he doesn't really have all of Alicent. Alicent let Larys jerk off to her feet. But I suppose he has no way of knowing that, does he? I think the only reason he feels mad is because he regrets ever sleeping with Rhaenyra, coz he fell for her and she didn't. He felt used. And was ready to die after he lashed out and committed crimes. So, he probably thought he owed his life to Alicent when she saved him from doing the unthinkable. Perhaps he felt like a duty towards her because of that. But no doubt he's grown cynical and would never ask of Alicent what he asked of Rhaenyra. And looking at Alicent, he probably thinks it's unfair for her to toil away for an old ailing husband who can't even cherish her like she deserves. So they bond over their frustrations and take their stress out by being sexually intimate. But I do think they still have that barrier between them that neither of them is willing to cross. To actually fall in love with one another. I don't think he's happy doing it. Criston knows he's no better. He's still doing with Alicent what Rhaenyra asked of him all those years ago. If he was truly happy with Alicent, he would just continue what he's doing with her without the need to spite Rhaenyra.
It's easy to say some wild shit when you got some booty last week. After a few years...
He will never forgive her for not running away with him.
Yes but he does that to spite Rhaenyra. He was so hurt because he really had feelings for her and broke his oath for her (his decisions but still) and she (understandably) wasn't willing to give up her life for him which he had done. With Alicent he just fucks around without feelings (at least for now) and they come together in their shared hatred for and disappointment in Rhaenyra.
I watched it with my mum and I said something like why is he still so obsessed with her (Rhaenyra) and she said, "you cannot hate someone this much without loving them first."
Tbh, I think it's bad writing that feels like it was for shock value. Illicit sex wasn't necessary for Criston and Alicent to feel guilty about Blood & Cheese if the show had followed the superior book version. The repressed courtly love dynamic would've been a so much more interesting and appropriate to the characterizations we saw in season 1. The only way I can make sense of this development is to think show!Criston is motivated solely by personal loyalty now.
That's what I don't get. He wasn't even sleeping with Alicent in the books, as far as I am aware off. I'm pretty sure the creators didn't really have any ideas on what to do with Criston before he became the hand of the king, so they just threw him in bed with Alicent.
This is why not everyone is cut out to be a writer I guess, and this isn't a criticism of show. There is nothing odd about Criston's behaviour. His hatred for Rhaenyra stems from her, in his eyes, being the person who made him cross the line. Saying that he is fine with it isn't accurate. He views himself as damaged goods.
I agree with you but you don't need to be a writer to recognize good or bad writing. That's just lazy. That aside, do people understand that it's been 20+ years since the incident with Rhaenyra? Every time I see posts like OP's I legit roll my eyes. "Ahaaaa, you are doing the thing you said you would do .. 20 years ago" is not the gotcha so many seem to believe it is. Life happens, time passes, people change. 20 y/o Cole felt demeaned by being the Princess's whore. Maybe 40 y/o Cole sees things differently. I don't see the hypocrisy is having a different perspective after 20 fucking years. The hypocrisy comes in when he continues to hate Rhaenyra. Not because he is doing what he is doing.
Did I say you need to be a writer to recognise good or bad writing? No, that isn't what I said. What I pointed out is that some people clearly don't have a good grasp of human behaviour. For all of their criticism, if they were to write a story, the characters would be wooden and one dimensional.
>Did I say you need to be a writer to recognise good or bad writing? That's exactly what your first paragraph implied. It's fine if that's not what you meant but it's a 100% reasonable reading of it in context.
That isn't what first sentence implied. If it is not what I meant, then it cannot be what I implied. I also don't think it is a reasonable reading within context. On the surface, it is acknowledgement that not everyone has a firm grasp on how people behave, something that is required to make authentic characters.
In the book, Cole doesn't have an affair with Alicent. Writers missed something there IMO. In my head cannon, Cole could have refused Alicent's advance on the night of blood & cheese and instead stood guard for Aegon in the throne room, maybe even talking to Aegon to influence him. In the book, he is called The Kingmaker and Aegon listens to him. Instead they turned him into a fboy completely destroying his dutiful relationship with Alicent built in S1 for the sake of short term viewer emotions.
Y’all forget many years have passed and it’s not even the same situation. Alicent isn’t asking him to be ok with her fucking/marrying somebody else. I’m no Crispy fan but this dead horse has been beat enough already.
With Rhaenyra he was an honorable man capable of love because he loved himself. He was in love with her and felt hurt and rejected by her offer. With Alicent he hates himself and probably her as well, and their relationship is a reflection of those feelings. Generally our romantic & sexual relationships work that way, so this checks out.
He loves Rhaenyra and didn't accept her No as an answer that's why...
He wanted Rhaenyra. He settled for alicent.
I mean these things happen in relationships & the Real World *all the time...* ... People get with people, then don't get back together, or just stop seeing each other, or one of them 'breaks it off' / puts it on hold etc. Someone gets hurt, someone gets jealous, someone gets angry, etc. Both sides move on, some never do, some do later than others etc. And Alicent has done a helluva lot for Criston Cole ... Rhaenyra changed his life by making him a Knight of the Kingsguard ... Alicent *saved* his life, multiple times, and rewarded him for his loyalty and devotion by making him one of the most powerful men in the realm. And calling him her *whore* isn't fair IMHO ... she's now unmarried / widowed / single, and she's into him ... if it wasn't for his "vows" , who's to say she wouldn't have him openly as her "boyfriend" etc. or even marry ? She might even be able to pay the High Septon to give him Special Dispensation like Henry VIII lol. (Not saying that's happening just joking here...)
YES THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. Some ppl think "white cloak" Cole did a 180 turn sleeping with Alicent. But they don't realize him being hypocritical out of seething hatred towards Rhaenyra is the whole point of his arc. Ever since his suicide attempt his every move is driven by spite towards Rhaenyra whom he felt had agrieved him. This is the "every woman is the image of the mother" hypocritical Cole. Him sleeping with Alicent is a continuation of that one-track mind. He thinks they're united in shared hatred of Rhaenyra, while Alicent is vicariously living out her love for Rhaenyra via Cole. The book never gives a real explanation as to why Criston hated Rhaenyra so much. There was an implication of misogyny as Cole said "her & daemon would turn KL into a brothel". The show expanded on that theme. It's easy to write a generic edgy chad antihero/villain. This universe has so many of them. The show could've taken the easy way out by portraying Cole as another personality-less badass. Writing a pure repulsive dickhead just by the virtue of pure dickheadery is much harder. Tying it into the theme of medieval patriarchy & the complex dynamic of the two female protagonists is even more hard. They managed to pull that off & turned him into the most unlikable character in Thrones verse in the eyes of the general public. Sure, in another world I would've loved to see the badass Cole who's beating up Harwin and slitting Beesbury's throat. But I'm gonna lie if I say I'm not enjoying this dickhead version & waiting for him to get his comeuppance.
Rhaenyra sullied his honor and he's already ruined. Might as well keep sinning at this point. At least that's what I think his internal logic is. I also think his rejection of Rhaenyra was in part because she was so flippant about it and unconflicted, laughing it off in his face while the guilt ate away at him. Alicent is at least ideologically aligned with him and shares his shame, which just continues to bond them.
It was never about being anyone's whore. Cole lashed out at Rhaenyra because he was afraid of losing the position he'd worked so hard for, dishonouring himself and likely his whole family by association, and possibly losing his life. It's unclear for how long him and Alicent have been at it, but it's likely that he's more okay with her since: 1. They share a deeper connection than he did with Rhaenyra, and he trusts her not to out him. 2. She's in a position of greater power than Rhaenyra was, and he believes Alicent would protect him. 3. He doesn't care at this point. He's broken his vows, is ashamed of himself and thinks there's no saving him anyway. So he's just going through the motions, because his queen wants it and she looks like Olivia Cooke. Any or all.
This is the answer and it’s not hard to figure it out at all. People dislike his character so much that they overlook his character’s perspective.
He cared about being in control, he doesn’t care about his oath
The dude was going to kill himself because of the personal moral code. The sociopath you're implying will never do that. The writers decided to make him a punching bag and a fucking hypocrite rather than keep him the cold, cunning, ruthlessly vengeful character he was in the book. It was an artistic choice, not a natural characterization. Edit: I know I will be heavily downvoted for daring to touch this topic on the other side of the echo chamber. The narrative that he was always this asshole he is rn is false. He was a genuine friend of Rhaenyra the first few episodes but feelings got so complicated by the end he was going to kill himself because of the shame. The asshole we see rn is NOT the natural path that Criston was set on the beginning. There are a dozen different and equally likely paths they could've gone with him after the timeskip. They **chose** to make him realistic scary evil
Criston still feels incredibly guilty about breaking those oaths, and about continuing to do it, and he's diverting that guilt into anger and lashing out at the people around him. Like the entire scene with Arryk is basically that. He calls out Arryk about his cloak being dirty, that its a symbol of their duty and vows, a duty he knows he's breaking, vows he knows he's breaking, and so he projects that onto Arryk. Criston's development is a very realistic path for Criston, one he was driven down by the society around him that creates such ridiculous standards for honor that almost no one follows and yet heavily punishes those who aren't able to hide it.
I do not argue that the characterization of Cole we see right now doesn't make sense. But he could've also been vengeful and petty without having to be a hypocrite. Another equally likely scenario could've been if he chose to stay neutral and had a heart in conflict with itself moment at the outset of the war. The narrative that he was always this person we see in the last two episodes is false imo. I believe he was a genuine friend and all these current tendencies developed after the ash had settled.
I think he always had that violence bubbling up within him, especially after Rhaenyra rejected him. He kills Joffrey before the time skip happens, and after the time skip you see he developed a hatred for Rhaenyra, and has attached himself to Alicent, I think at least partially because at some point he saw working for Alicent as a way to hold on to the remnants of his honor. I doubt that he ever really would have been neutral, since he only doesn't kill himself due to Alicent's intervention, at which point he likely starts working for her.
I do think it was more Alicent taking hold of him when he was psychologically weakest than him clinging to her. The whole Joffrey thing was him catching Cole on a really, really bad day. Even Ned got seconds close to cutting the Master of Coin's throat on an insult to his wife.
If only Ned had completed the deal, offing littlefinger fixes everything
I've been suicidal. I promise you, suicidal ideation is absolutely about control. You're right that he's more complicated, but wrong about what goes through your mind and soul when you're standing with a blade to your heart. You want nothing more than to seize control of the universe and force it to do what you **need** it to, and yet the only thing you feel you have control of is your life's existence.
Miquel Sapochnik called him a thug in an interview. Cole was about to kill himself because he murdered noble in a fit of rage and was presumably going to be executed anyway.
He turned into a rabid dog and nothing happened to him . That made no sense to me at all . I highly doubt that wedding would have taken place that night without one person saying nope not happening until the dog is in the dungeon.
>He turned into a rabid dog and nothing happened to him . No one knows what happened in the aftermath. That doesn't mean nothing happened. A 10 year gap began mere hours after the assault. It is obvious that Alicent - who is the Queen, let's not forget - interceded on his behalf somehow with Vyserys. The very end of the episode was her taking him under his protection. We just don't know the details of how that exactly unfolded. I don't know why people keep saying nothing happened.
He still has his head and he got a promotion guarding the queen . Yeah , nothing happened to him .
He was never in control of rhaenyra in the first instance. Nor did it even seem that way. He became a kingsguard because rhaenyra chose him, he works for an institution rhaenyra is set to inherit, and is obligated to die for it if necessary, his life functionally belongs to her. They have sex, not because he chose this, but because rhaenyra did. I’m not sure how one can look at their dynamic, and their social context and conclude Cole has any power of rhaenyra, or ever even presumed to
And he. Is. A. Whore
People are allowed to change their opinions in the span of 20 years. The amount of hate criston gets right now is ridiculous. There is a massmurderer, a rapist, a groomer, a child murder in the show, non of them get as much hate as Criston. And there are much better reasons to not like Criston instead of the fact that he wasn’t ok to be in a secret relationship with one woman 20 years ago but is in one with another woman now
I'm not a Criston hater but it's nothing new. When addressing fictional people annoying the audience is almost always viewed as worse as anything they do to other fictional people.
It’s been 19 years since then. People get jaded and change.
The writers butchered Criston’s character
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Criston's biggest issue with Rhaenyra is that she would not run away with him. It's less about what they did together and more about essentially not getting his way.
being a whore out of spite is Cole's thing
Cristin Cole today is not the same Criston Cole of yestermorrow.
Not like he can say no to Alicent.
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I can’t blame him man
When does this dweeb die?
Not soon enough.
The oath-breaking was a problem for Criston but his main issue was as you said - being Rhaenyra’s whore. Criston was uncomfortable with the breaking his oath stuff but didn’t actually say anything until Rhaenyra was going to marry Laenor and he didn’t want to be some side dude while she married somebody else and assumably had kids with him. Criston isn’t Alicent’s side dude, he’s her dude. There is the oathbreaker guilt, hence them saying we shouldn’t do this again and then they do it again, but there isn’t the aversion to being a side dude.
Can you blame him?
No 
He’s the biggest hypocrite on the show and it’s a huge reason why he’s so goddamn unlikable lol, guy is a master at projecting too, the scene with Arryk last episode was so fuckin infuriating
4
This gets brought up all the time
Yeah you're right I dont see that it make sense and I dont really understand the choices of the showrunner with that or with Criston in general.
He grew accustomed to being a human sex toy for powerful women.
In his defence, he was a fresh-out-of-school new hire when Rhaenyra made that offer. Now he knows better.
I thought about that too and I think the difference is that alicent is actually single, R would have been publicly married… but that’s still such a weird distinction! Lol
I wanna watch how petty he can get during this season. Lol.
I haven’t read the books but this adaptation of this character is really poorly developed. He’s functioned to cause rifts and problems without being congruent or complex at all. He is my biggest criticism of hotd
What can I say, I like Ser Crispin's "himbo fuckboy menace to the realm" energy.
Blame the creative team! They decided to play the card of the toxic EX-boyfriend.
Big Al is the only one who knows he broke his oath with Ray Ray so in a way she has that on him. He’s gotta do what she says, plus he likes it.
Redheads, my dude. Redheads with curly hair. I'd immediately forget my oath if Alicent tried it on with me tbh.
This is why I hate this happening so fast. You could make this make sense but not so rapidly. I think Alicole would have been best as an emotional affair, where in they act like spouses and have genuine deep feelings for each other but refuse to cross the line out of fear of their oaths.
I think part of his mental breakdown about Rhaenyra was that she was about to marry Laenor Without knowing Laenor’s situation and preferences, I think Cole freaked out because he felt like a sidepiece to a married woman Maybe he justifies his sex w Alicent on the fact that Viserys is dead and Alicent didn’t remarry. So in his eyes, she’s single and dtf
Sometimes, people’s convictions and motivations change during a time span of 20 years. Crazy, right?
The writers don't really care about character consistency. I would think having relatable characters and drama would be important but Condal is more interested in just figuring out ways to write fan fiction about why the Greens are the worst thing ever.
They’ve just written him terribly. Had so much potential.
Unfortunately all the characters are quite one-dimensional, it would be nice to see into Criston's silly head.
Side-piece or FWB would be more accurate than whore.
As a scenario, there are contradictions in the behaviour and characteristics of the characters, no matter what anyone says, this is not a character problem, but a scenario problem. Again, someone thought it was a brilliant idea for two characters to be lovers and ignored the contradictions and absurdities. (this account still can't get over the scene of the dragon coming out by headbutting the stone).
Every day I get this sub on my home page and I am shocked on how it continues to grow in idiocy
To be fair, he and Rhaenyra had children. It is a special level of hurt and disrespect to not even be given the respect of a father.
Character development worked out differently for Ser Crispin
You’re the very first person to notice this
He seemed to have strong feelings toward Rhaenyra. Alicent and Criston hardly acknowledge each other after. Not just because they don’t want people to be suspicious, but because they don’t seem to care about each other on a personal level
His relationship with Alicent > his relationship with Rhaenyra. Idk y this is so complicated
Do you think maybe he regrets not taking Rhaenyra’s offer? And that regret turns to resentment and hatred. Would also explain why he went so hard on the strong boys, the kids that (if he had accepted), could have been his in that alternate situation.
What was her offer?
To be her loverboy.
It's called character development. Lol.
But he kinda looks like he is in pain the entire time 😂😂😂 He looks so unhappy and terrible. Maybe he’s doing it for power, probably will ditch Alicent when time comes.
at this point I think everything he does is out of his spite for Rhaenyra, even getting with Alicent
All of this drama over a guy!
Yes, because that's how he has been treated. In terms of his sexual relationships, he is a victim. Last time he spoke up about it, Rhaenyra broke his heart and laid it out that all he is good for is sex on the side. Why would he speak up again? Once bitten, twice shy. Cole was warped by how Rhaenyra treated him, he was in the process of killing himself when Alicent stopped him, and now he doesn't even know or care about his worth because these highborn people will keep using him for their own benefit anyway, like Aegon naming him Hand to get back at Otto. In turn, he takes it out on the memory of Rhaenyra and his own subordinates, like Arryk. People hate him because he says bad things about the protagonist, but look what she did to him. She forced him to jeopardise everything, to break his vows all because her uncle didn't sleep with her and she wanted someone to finish the job. It's actually gross when people hate on him for harbouring deep-seated hatred towards someone that used him like that. Now, he's just a beaten dog who has learned to accept being used, which is why he isn't internally fine with Alicent doing what she does, but he has come to accept it, just like any victim of abuse. If you need further convincing, gender swap the entire cast of characters, then you'll be saying "oh god, why do these powerful men keep taking advantage of this woman who isn't even in a position to decline?"
It’s because he’s a bitch, Sue krispy cream is a bitch!
>His whole problem was he wouldn’t be Rhaenyra’s whore. In what...e4 was it? >But season 2 comes around and now he’s fine with being a side piece I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Criston's changed a fair bit in that time...
I mean, Rheanyra basically raped the guy. Then, she just tossed him aside because he didn't want to be a piece of meat.
Actors and show runners have said their scene was consentual. And it still doesnt answer the question, she viewed him as meat? Then what does Alicent view him as meat and a punching bag she can slap around whenever she's angry? And for some reason hes ok with that?
criston cole is a ruined character tho dont think too much about it book criston actually rejected rhaenyra
That never made any sense. He rejected her and he hated her THAT much over it? Him being bitter over being rejected is a WAY better explanation. Also, that was just one of several possible scenarios put forth in the book.
And one of those scenarios was that that he claimed he had rejected Rhaenyra when she’d professed her love and begged him, but that it was really the other way around and she’d rejected him.
And what’s wrong with that
It was his first time he wanted it to be special, it’s been 15 years since , he is lord commander, now even hand of king. He has lot more to lose & has broken his oath anyways. His relationship with Rhaenerya is classic example of "I am mad at you I don’t remember why but I am mad at you"
iTs BaD wRiTiNg -Team Green
Criston cole character it's just.. mess l don't understand him and his motivation at all Like him saying there's no absolution for what he did than he go and fuck alicent again
You never met people in real life who say one thing and then do something completely opposite? Lucky you
I find him extremely consistent. Reminds me of real people I’ve actually known.
I think it also has to do with sharing her with Laenor that put him off. But yeah it's so hypocritical. But I think he knows that and realizes that Alicent is the key to get back at her. He has written his life off for revenge. He doesn't want absolution. He wants Rhaenyra to hurt for playing with his feelings. He thought he would get a fairy tail ending, running off with a princess. And he hated what he wanted, what he thought meant true love for him for the first time, wasn't the same for her, since she was only exploring herself, you see. That phase of his life that he had already gotten past was only starting for her.. And he hadn't realized it was like that for Rhaenyra until much later. He didn't like how she behaved around his uncle. He feels cheated but deep down even tho it's not anybody's fault because the two of them both didn't have any conversation about what kind of relationship they want from each other prior to having reckless sexual intimacy. He is mad at Rhaenyra for not falling for him like he imagined.
Any port in a storm(‘s end?) bro.
Alicent is hot. Might as well…. what’s it matter if he breaks an oath he’s already broken multiple times before.
I wrote about it in another post. Cole basically thinks he is sullied and believes that he is not the man he was before. He broke psychologically after trusting and toyed by Rhaenyra. He said he is "beyond absolution", which tells enough about where he is standing at. He is now playing the game that was forced on him, and convinced he will never be the honourable man that picked up the White Cloak years ago. Which means he will do anything to soothe the remorse for not being able to become the man he fashioned himself to be, and take advantage of his position to make the best of circumstances, which includes; fucking the Queen Mother.
He’s not Alicent whore, as she not married anymore !